Watching Obama

[billydkid]

I"m watching Obama in Virginia right now and I have to say, man, that guy is good. He has developed to the point where he is truly a brilliant speaker and politician. I disagree with him fundamentally about many things, but he's got me.

[Regnad Kcin]

Use the Force, Luke... (http://images.ebaumsworld.com/2006/12/r2d2.jpg)

[Jeff Corey]

Use the Force, Luke... (http://images.ebaumsworld.com/2006/12/r2d2.jpg)

503 - Service Unavailable.

[ProbeX]

I"m watching Obama in Virginia right now and I have to say, man, that guy is good. He has developed to the point where he is truly a brilliant speaker and politician. I disagree with him fundamentally about many things, but he's got me.

Now juxtapose that with Bushie Jr. and McCain. Gosh, if we're strictly talking orators, Obama should win, hands down.

[Upchurch]

503 - Service Unavailable.

Yeah. Think about it....

[Kestrel]

I"m watching Obama in Virginia right now and I have to say, man, that guy is good. He has developed to the point where he is truly a brilliant speaker and politician. I disagree with him fundamentally about many things, but he's got me.

I saw him speak a few weeks ago in Golden, Colorado. It wasn't just a stump speech he had given dozens of times. It was a 40 minute long policy speech on economics, a subject that normally puts people to sleep. Obama had the crowd engaged for the entire speech.

After the speech he had an interview that lasted about an hour. After that, he chatted with the volunteers who helped stage the event. His skills in talking to people in small groups match his skills as a public speaker.

It's was also clear that his staff members were supremely competent, dedicated and focused. I hope he can find more people like them to help run the country.

[Whiplash]

Well I don't get it. I've seen him speak quite a bit. Several speeches and so forth during the primaries. Interviews here and there. And I watched all three debates.

The man is eloquent, but he says virtually nothing of substance. He just continuously appeals to peoples emotions and goes out of his way to make you think he really gives a damn about you. But it looks as phony as a $3 bill to me.

I seriously do not get it. I read and hear about people going into trance like states while listening to the guy.. all wrapped up and giddy as if he's a drug. For crying out loud, how shallow are some of you? How can you not see through the BS? Where is even 1% of the cynicism you show towards any Republican? Even .001% Where is it?

The man is the quintessential politician. Slick, smooth, eloquent, and bending over backwards to make you think he cares with endless shallow populist nonsense. He plays on peoples emotions, and their envy of those with wealth. He's a charlatan.

[BenBurch]

Yeah. Think about it....

:D

[Nursefoxfire]

Well I don't get it. I've seen him speak quite a bit. Several speeches and so forth during the primaries. Interviews here and there. And I watched all three debates.

The man is eloquent, but he says virtually nothing of substance. He just continuously appeals to peoples emotions and goes out of his way to make you think he really gives a damn about you. But it looks as phony as a $3 bill to me.

<snip>


[bolding mine]

Funny, if you look at transcripts of the debates (thus removing anything that might sway you based on delivery, appearance, cadence, cheering crowds or whatever), his speeches seem pretty chock-full of substance (i.e. data, facts, clearly laid-out future plans, etc...). Whether or not you agree with the "substance" he furnishes, you can't deny his speeches are riddled with it.

[BenBurch]

Well I don't get it. I've seen him speak quite a bit. Several speeches and so forth during the primaries. Interviews here and there. And I watched all three debates.

The man is eloquent, but he says virtually nothing of substance. He just continuously appeals to peoples emotions and goes out of his way to make you think he really gives a damn about you. But it looks as phony as a $3 bill to me.

I seriously do not get it. I read and hear about people going into trance like states while listening to the guy.. all wrapped up and giddy as if he's a drug. For crying out loud, how shallow are some of you? How can you not see through the BS? Where is even 1% of the cynicism you show towards any Republican? Even .001% Where is it?

The man is the quintessential politician. Slick, smooth, eloquent, and bending over backwards to make you think he cares with endless shallow populist nonsense. He plays on peoples emotions, and their envy of those with wealth. He's a charlatan.

Okay, I am calling your bluff.

Here is the transcript of the speech Kestrel referred to above; http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/confronting_an_economic_crisis.html

Go through it line by line and show me how it;

- says virtually nothing of substance
- continuously appeals to peoples emotions
- is endless shallow populist nonsense

Line-by-line.

Give what he says, then give your critique of it.

Or admit that you can't make that case, at least for this speech.

[ParanoidAndroid]

The man is eloquent, but he says virtually nothing of substance. He just continuously appeals to peoples emotions and goes out of his way to make you think he really gives a damn about you. But it looks as phony as a $3 bill to me.


Obama is a skilled orator, no doubt. Turning that against him as if it's something to condemn goes hand-in-hand with the rampant fear of intellectualism perpetuated by the most subversive part of the right-wing. To say that his eloquence is an effort to distract from a lack of substance in his views is lazy, dishonest, naive, or some combination thereof.

Is championing mediocrity the only option that the right will accept/endorse at this point in history? This is getting flat-out embarrassing (at least for those subscribing to this perspective).

[not_so_new]

Okay, I am calling your bluff.

Here is the transcript of the speech Kestrel referred to above; http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/confronting_an_economic_crisis.html

Go through it line by line and show me how it;

- says virtually nothing of substance
- continuously appeals to peoples emotions
- is endless shallow populist nonsense

Line-by-line.

Give what he says, then give your critique of it.

Or admit that you can't make that case, at least for this speech.

Exactly.

I hear people on the right say things like... "Obama says virtually nothing of substance" ....yet the evidence is there for Obama's substance if you bother to listen to what the man has to say.

People who say Obama doesn't offer substance are showing their bias, it proves that they are not listening.

It's funny to me when Whiplash repeats the mantra "skeptics not being skeptical of Obama...." I STARTED OUT this political season saying that I would probably take McCain over Obama if it got down to it. I only became an Obama supporter BECAUSE of my skepticism, not in spite of it.

Whiplash, grow a pair please. Either admit that you are 100% biased, become the skeptic that you are accusing Obama supporters of not being and give equal weight to Obama and McCain or stop with the "I am so enraged, how can you all be so stupid and naive enough to fall for Obama's line of crap" posts.

[GeeMack]

Whether or not you agree with the "substance" he furnishes, you can't deny his speeches are riddled with it.


Deny it? Whiplash can.

[leftysergeant]

He plays on peoples emotions, and their envy of those with wealth. He's a charlatan.

Will you stop with htis anal retentive blather?

It is not envy of those with wealth that drives liberals. It is simple justice. When those with money are able to buy the jobs out from under working people, then whine about having had to send those jobs off shore because the American workers expected to be paid what they are worth, I think of a wife beater who says "She brought it on herself."

When wealth is concentrated in fewer hands, at an increasing rate, and it becomes harder for small operators to enter a market, the end result is peonage.

I don't think anyone here is envious because Paul Newman was wealthy. No one here considers Costco an enemy of working people.

There is, however, no justification for any of the CEOs of the failed financial institutions to have a penny of severance pay to their names.
We admire people like Joe Biden or Barack Obama who work their way up from the bottom. We do not have any use for the snivelling snot Wurzelbacher whining about how his penniless self can't afford to buy the business he works for because of income taxes,, and I, as a retired soldier, have no use for a schlub like McCain who had everything handed to him on a silver platter by his highly-placed daddy or his simpering bimbo trophy wife.

Butch up and realize that we are all in this together, and when the compost hits the ventillating device, those who got the sweeter deal from the previously-existing order have the greatest responsibility to undo any harm they did. If they did it with their money games, we need some of that money. If they caused it by bad governmental policies, we do not need their opinions of how to fix it, especially if there is any smell of corruption about them, like association with the criminal elements of the financial industry who loaded the ecconomy onto this bobsled to hell.

[billydkid]

I have add, it might be a relief/treat to have someone occupy the office who isn't borderline "special" and doesn't appear to be psychotic.

[leftysergeant]

I am also not convinced that Trig is the dimmest bulb on the Palin family tree.

[Tony]

Obama is a skilled orator, no doubt. Turning that against him as if it's something to condemn goes hand-in-hand with the rampant fear of intellectualism perpetuated by the most subversive part of the right-wing. To say that his eloquence is an effort to distract from a lack of substance in his views is lazy, dishonest, naive, or some combination thereof.

Is championing mediocrity the only option that the right will accept/endorse at this point in history? This is getting flat-out embarrassing (at least for those subscribing to this perspective).

Indeed. To quote Obama: "It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant."

[Denver]

When I first saw him, what, 20 months ago debating with the other Democratic candidates, I was so impressed by his oratory skill and talent for inspiring, that I realized, unless someone really beats this guy down on the issues, he's could win the presidency.

I think this skill, in itself, has so effected the population, that it is a big reason he will indeed win, barring any large unforseens.

[David Wong]

I predict this thread will outrage Whiplash somehow.

[BenBurch]

I predict this thread will outrage Whiplash somehow.

I'm hoping he takes my dare, does the critique, and realizes that he's been wrong.

I mean, I don't expect he'll stop supporting Grampy, but I hope he'll realize that Obama is a person of substance.

Yeah, I'm an optimist.

[quarky]

this is going so well, i feel like something weird is going to happen.

like martial law; an assasination; some major disaster; total cheating on the election; that sort of crap. Its like the repubs aren't even trying. They're up to something, in my paranoia.

Hopefully, they've simply sucked it dry, and must move on.

[BenBurch]

this is going so well, i feel like something weird is going to happen.

like martial law; an assasination; some major disaster; total cheating on the election; that sort of crap. Its like the repubs aren't even trying. They're up to something, in my paranoia.

Hopefully, they've simply sucked it dry, and must move on.

They are like parasitic wasps... Eventually they have eaten the innards out of the poor caterpillar and fly away, leaving its dying hulk behind.

[shemp]

I predict this thread will outrage Whiplash somehow.

I predict we have seen the last of him in this thread.

[Iamme]

I"m watching Obama in Virginia right now and I have to say, man, that guy is good. He has developed to the point where he is truly a brilliant speaker and politician. I disagree with him fundamentally about many things, but he's got me.


That is kind of scary actually, when some person can practically hypnotize someone with their charisma. Hasn't that already happened with other leaders and their followers in the past? From Hitler to the Pope? And wasn't even Jim Jones capable of that. This is truly scary since you have not said anything about his actual proposals, nor brought up any concerns regarding his associations.

No concerns over all the stuff being said on tallk radio and cable tv news that his presidency may lead to socialism which then leads to more of a police state (since it has to, to protect the state's investments)?

I'm scared that there are many many others just like you out there. I personally have nothing against you, BTW. It is just what you said.

[Shalamar]

Obama is a great Orator. He's polished, and knows how to deliver. It makes him a good debater, and excellent in public engagements.

However, I HAVE heard a lot of what he plans to do. I don't know if he'll manage to pull it off, he is a politician after all.

However, the vehement Obama haters continue to show that they put any critical thinking aside, just to be outraged, and deliver bile against him. To be fair, there are those that do the same against McCain.

JREF is an educational forum about Critical thinking. Except when it comes to politics.

[Iamme]

... he[Obama] will indeed win, barring any large unforseens.

And I tell YOU that it is going to be sunny tomorrow, unless of course it rains.

[Grizzly Bear]

They are like parasitic wasps... Eventually they have eaten the innards out of the poor caterpillar and fly away, leaving its dying hulk behind.

Oh believe me I despise people who have bias for Obama, especially republicans who use the pronunciation of his name as justification to call him a muslim traitor or as an excuse to use racism. Such people bring shame to the republican party, and for that matter this planet. I disagree with Obama's policy though because he's not thinking out of the box, he advertises change but preeches typical liberal politics, and rather than look at that many are so entrenched in his charisma to bother looking. I personally don't care if anyone agrees with a liberal mindset or not, McCain's preaching numerous elements of right wing politics... everyone's entitled to whatever values they hold whether people like me disagree with them or not.

Let me state this clearly.... NO... the purpose of my post is not to "bash the eeeeeevvvvviiiiilllllll liberals," I'm pointing out that where he says he stands for change and bipartisanship... his speeches don't reflect that. He doesn't across to me as a someone who'd be crossing the aisle... despite the dressed up nature of his speeches...

*Commence the political pummeling of me in 3....2.....1......*

[chipmunk stew]

The man is eloquent, but he says virtually nothing of substance.
Yeah. McCain was right about Obama and his eloquence. He says he wants to ensure the "health" of the mother. That's so frickin laughable. Like he really cares.

Women's "health"...pshht. :nope:

[geni]

He beat of the clinton machine with speaking and presentation as key weapons. That qualifies as a fairly solid test of his abilities I would argue.

[Jeff Corey]

That is kind of scary actually, when some person can practically hypnotize someone with their charisma. Hasn't that already happened with other leaders and their followers in the past? From Hitler to the Pope? And wasn't even Jim Jones capable of that. This is truly scary since you have not said anything about his actual proposals, nor brought up any concerns regarding his associations.

No concerns over all the stuff being said on tallk radio and cable tv news that his presidency may lead to socialism which then leads to more of a police state (since it has to, to protect the state's investments)?

I'm scared that there are many many others just like you out there. I personally have nothing against you, BTW. It is just what you said.
But the difference is that what he says makes sense. Not like Hitler or any Pope or Jim Jones.
What are you scared of, up there in Eau Claire or surrounds? Raving Socialists taxing people with incomes over 1/4 million. The RICH? Sheesh, on Lung Guyland that ain't rich.
But, tell you what, if I have to pay more taxes to insure the working people can get some basic benefits that they deserve, so be it.

[maxfrost]

What is this nonsense about socialism leading to a police state? Is Norway a police state? Sweden? Canada? How gullible can people be to swallow every piece of excrement that comes out of the air from right-wing talk show hosts?

The past eight years have taken us further away from socialism and closer to a police state than any time that I can remember. Maybe it's time to reverse direction.

[Grizzly Bear]

What is this nonsense about socialism leading to a police state? Is Norway a police state? Sweden? Canada? How gullible can people be to swallow every piece of excrement that comes out of the air from right-wing talk show hosts?

The past eight years have taken us further away from socialism and closer to a police state than any time that I can remember. Maybe it's time to reverse direction.

Depends on the type of socialism we're referring to... Are we talking about Europe? Or are we talking about socialism as interpreted in Venezuela? Seems to me like there are different facets of it...

[geni]

Depends on the type of socialism we're referring to... Are we talking about Europe? Or are we talking about socialism as interpreted in Venezuela? Seems to me like there are different facets of it...

Venezuela is first chavezist. The socialist elements are just a side effect of Chavez's popualism. The socialist elements in Venezuela are not too much of a problem. Useing oil or mineral wealth to pay for investiment in education and infrastructure is a legitimate economic move. It doesn't always work see saudi arabia but Venezuela appears to be avoiding the more obvious mistakes. The main problem with Venezuela's current economic policy is that Chavez in inacting it (although the anti-americanism isn't medium-long term smart).

[DavidJames]

What is this nonsense about socialism leading to a police state? Is Norway a police state? Sweden? Canada? How gullible can people be to swallow every piece of excrement that comes out of the air from right-wing talk show hosts?It's not all gullibility, it's also willful ignorance and hyperbole with a side of disingenuous. It's argument by hot button buzzwords. You know, like palls around with terrorists.

The past eight years have taken us further away from socialism and closer to a police state than any time that I can remember. Maybe it's time to reverse direction.Kind of like that.

[Grizzly Bear]

Venezuela is first chavezist. The socialist elements are just a side effect of Chavez's popualism. The socialist elements in Venezuela are not too much of a problem. Useing oil or mineral wealth to pay for investiment in education and infrastructure is a legitimate economic move. It doesn't always work see saudi arabia but Venezuela appears to be avoiding the more obvious mistakes. The main problem with Venezuela's current economic policy is that Chavez in inacting it (although the anti-americanism isn't medium-long term smart).
Venezuela subsidizes a lot of their resources, including health care, and oil and it's led to a multitude of benefits, however it's Chavez's execution of socialism and the expansion of government power into those various facets that concerns me most about moving in that direction. Setting aside all of my opposition to income redistribution, and placing services like health care into a centralized government run system, it then falls on the execution of those policies by the government which determines how effectively those benefits play through. Get the wrong politician in power later, and that expanded power on the federal level affects everyone.

You can call my concern paranoia or whatever you will... I'm uncomfortable however with placing the system in a position like that.

[billydkid]

That is kind of scary actually, when some person can practically hypnotize someone with their charisma. Hasn't that already happened with other leaders and their followers in the past? From Hitler to the Pope? And wasn't even Jim Jones capable of that. This is truly scary since you have not said anything about his actual proposals, nor brought up any concerns regarding his associations.

No concerns over all the stuff being said on tallk radio and cable tv news that his presidency may lead to socialism which then leads to more of a police state (since it has to, to protect the state's investments)?

I'm scared that there are many many others just like you out there. I personally have nothing against you, BTW. It is just what you said.
I don't worship Obama, but he has exactly the same appeal that Reagan had - just to different folks. Now, if he were preaching the equivalent to what Jim Jones or that other great orator Adolf Hitler that would be one thing, but he is not. Given the choice between McCain and Obama, I think there is no choice and not because Obama is a great orator. If I had my druthers I would be voting for Ron Paul - who could not be less charismatic or a poorer orator. This idea that people who actually have principles can be transfixed and influenced in the way you are suggesting is silly. Jack Kennedy had exactly the same effect on people as did Reagan and I don't hear anyone talking about it being equivalent to a cult of personality.

I have to add that we already have socialism and we just got another huge dose of it and I have given up on the idea that there is any way it is ever going to change and not get very much worse. The best we can hope for is to have someone who is sane at the helm. Dubya is not sane and neither is McCain. I am the one who is always coming in here and talking about the evils of socialism, but most just can't see it. We are stuck with a system in which the federal government it deeply and fundamentally entrenched in our lives. Neither McCain nor Obama want to change that. The question now is - do you want socialism that is more inclined to assist the working class or more of socialism for the rich and well connected where profit is privatized and risk is socialized. Or really a kind of corporate facism where government serves almost entirely the interest of the powerful. I'm a committed libertarian, but if the choice is between Obama or McCain I have to go with Obama. I don't want socialism at all, but we are stuck with it for now.

[BenBurch]

I predict we have seen the last of him in this thread.

You would seem to have been right. He talks tough, but when the time comes to prove his guff, he runs.

[pgwenthold]

Obama is a skilled orator, no doubt. Turning that against him as if it's something to condemn goes hand-in-hand with the rampant fear of intellectualism perpetuated by the most subversive part of the right-wing.

Then again, you have to admit, that part of the right-wing has a lot more experience at it, making it work for incompetent boobs like Reagan and Bush Jr, and trying it with Palin. I'm not surprised that they would view good oratory skills as a substitute for any real substance. Given the history with their candidates, they can't comprehend how someone could be both a good communicator AND have a substantive message. Of course, that's because they were too busy trying to attack Bill Clinton to see it there.

Some people have pointed out how Bill Clinton was able to have that "folksy" approach that Palin is supposed to have, and was successful with it. I have to remind them, while Clinton may have been able to connect with the folks, he was also an Ivy League educated lawyer and a Rhodes scholar. You can eat your cake AND have it, too.

[quarky]

Bubba was country for awhile. He was bilingual. He grew up around hicks, and knew the language.

Kids that grow up in boarding schools are much more awkward with the common folk.
And the common folk are very quick to pick up on that.

[ZouPrime]

That is kind of scary actually, when some person can practically hypnotize someone with their charisma. Hasn't that already happened with other leaders and their followers in the past? From Hitler to the Pope? And wasn't even Jim Jones capable of that. This is truly scary since you have not said anything about his actual proposals, nor brought up any concerns regarding his associations.


You exemplify ParanoidAndroid point earlier in this thread, which is that you are using Obama charisma against him. Which is completely silly, since it's perfectly possible for someone to be charismatic and good. You are basically making the assumption that someone who is truly good would invariably look and/or sound "ordinary".

And the really scary part is that the same observation can be used to explain why a guy like Bush was elected two times, or why someone like Palin is considered an acceptable candidate by some portion of the american electorate. Since they are folksy, then they must be good persons we can trust.


No concerns over all the stuff being said on tallk radio and cable tv news that his presidency may lead to socialism which then leads to more of a police state (since it has to, to protect the state's investments)?


Consider Whiplash comment that Obama is all style and no substance (i'm paraphrasing), and the compare it to the quote above. "His presidency may leads to socialism". Wow, that's one well defined cause of concern! Socialism. Coded word for "extreme-loony left". Only in America could such a sentence be uttered. There, liberal is a swearing word and most peoples only have a vague understanding of how things really work in the rich countries who actually implemented socialized programs last decades (which is practically every other western democracies in the world expect the US). It makes as much sense as saying that Sarkozy presidency may lead to capitalism in France.


I'm scared that there are many many others just like you out there. I personally have nothing against you, BTW. It is just what you said.
Thank you for your concerns.

[BenBurch]

Well, Whip? I see you have returned. Going to answer me?

[BenBurch]

Well, Whip? I see you have returned. Going to answer me?

No?