Scotch Tape + Vacuum = X-rays. No, Seriously...

[gerdbonk]

Scotch tape's surprising power: X-rays (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/10/22/scotch.tape.xray/index.html)

So now I can combine my radiology appointment with my holiday gift-wrapping.

Science. Is there anything it can't do?

[Shalamar]

Wow!

Ok. That's amazing. I can now build myself an x-ray machine!

[BenBurch]

OMG. That is so cool.

[Starthinker]

My son, who was caught more than once blowing things up in ways he learned from Mythbusters, is already looking for a practical application of this new discovery.

[theMark]

Does this mean if you're an office clerk and you're working in a big vacuum (or at least it feels that way), then you're in danger of radiation poisoning every time you pull a sticky note from something?

On a slightly more serious note: I've seen that blueish glow on some self-sealing envelopes when they're pulled open. Weird stuff. I gather it's still not quite understood why this happens at all?

[ImaginalDisc]

Does this mean if you're an office clerk and you're working in a big vacuum (or at least it feels that way), then you're in danger of radiation poisoning every time you pull a sticky note from something?

On a slightly more serious note: I've seen that blueish glow on some self-sealing envelopes when they're pulled open. Weird stuff. I gather it's still not quite understood why this happens at all?

I think that's triboluminescence, which is mostly visible light.

[Skeptic Guy]

I read this in the NY Times yesterday. Very cool. Kind of hard to do it in a vacuum and be able to live to tell about it, but it is cool.

[alfaniner]

On a slightly more serious note: I've seen that blueish glow on some self-sealing envelopes when they're pulled open. Weird stuff. I gather it's still not quite understood why this happens at all?

Breathe-Rights do that too. Especially when having to put one on in the middle of the night.

[INRM]

My son, who was caught more than once blowing things up in ways he learned from Mythbusters, is already looking for a practical application of this new discovery.

Well, we got a mad scientist in the making :p

[gerdbonk]

Nature has a video of scotch tape x-rays in action:

Sticky Tape X-rays (http://www.nature.com/nature/videoarchive/x-rays/)

[BenBurch]

Well, if you could build an unwinder with a motor into a Mason Jar with control wires coming out though the lid, sealed with hard wax, and evacuate that (An undamaged mason jar will hold a vacuum) you could make an X-ray source. The X-rays have not much trouble getting though the glass.

So this is Science Fair material here.

I just hope the kids are all smart enough to know the inverse-square law, and use a long wire with a switch on it to activate their source.

[sanguine]

I just hope the kids are all smart enough to know the inverse-square law, and use a long wire with a switch on it to activate their source.

On that note:

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

[arthwollipot]

I had to check the date on this article. It sounds like something that would be published at the beginning of April.

I think that's triboluminescence, which is mostly visible light.How did they find out that trilobites were luminescent? :confused:

[Evilgiraffe]

...The X-rays have not much trouble getting though the glass.


Are you sure?

The x-ray diffractometers in our lab have enclosures with ordinary glass windows in them. These seem to do an adequate job of attenuating the x-rays as there is no need to wear a dosimeter while working around these machines.

[CaveDave]

Are you sure?

The x-ray diffractometers in our lab have enclosures with ordinary glass windows in them. These seem to do an adequate job of attenuating the x-rays as there is no need to wear a dosimeter while working around these machines.

Depends on ray energy and glass composition/thickness.

Are you sure it isn't lead glass? They use that for viewing windows in diagnostic/treatment x-ray rooms.

Dave

[Evilgiraffe]

Are you sure it isn't lead glass?

I have a vague memory of asking our radiation safety officer about it and being surprised by the reply that it was simply ordinary glass.
This was several years ago and I could easily be mis-remembering the conversation. I will ask again on Monday.

Depends on ray energy and glass composition/thickness.

It also depends on the intensity of the source, directly related to the tube's output power. I think our machines run at 1.6kW (40kV * 40 mA). The wiki article on X-ray tubes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_tube#Rotating_anode_tube) suggests that modern hospital machines run at up to 100kW. It may well be that ordinary glass is sufficient to attenuate our relatively weak source whilst lead glass is necessary for the more powerful hospital sources.

For real x-rays though, you need a synchrotron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron) like this one (http://www.esrf.eu/) I'm experimenting at next week.

[BenBurch]

Are you sure?

The x-ray diffractometers in our lab have enclosures with ordinary glass windows in them. These seem to do an adequate job of attenuating the x-rays as there is no need to wear a dosimeter while working around these machines.

Roentgen's X-ray device was a glass tube;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Crookes_tube_two_views.jpg/573px-Crookes_tube_two_views.jpg

[seismic_cowgirl]

You know, it's news like this that gets me all geeky in the morning. I'm totally getting tape just for this... although I don't have the vacumn chamber at my disposal... :D

In case people want to read the Nature News article:

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081022/full/news.2008.1185.html

[Evilgiraffe]

Roentgen's X-ray device was a glass tube;


Fair enough, I should've thought about it a little more before posting. Although Roentgen's tube has walls that are a lot thinner than your average Mason Jar. Maybe the maltese cross experiment could be recreated inside a jar with Scotch Tape x-rays, but I'm not certain many rays would escape the end.

It would probably be prudent to treat the device as a genuine x-ray source and arrange shielding accordingly though. :D

[leon_heller]

Peeling off Sellotape/Scotch tape generates a lot of static electricity - try doing it in the dark. Perhaps that is something to do with it.

Leon

[neutrino_cannon]

I'm frankly amazed that triboluminescence can produce frequencies so high.

Inevitable dumb question: would it be possible to make smaller, lower-power and more portable x-ray machines using this?

[paximperium]

I'm frankly amazed that triboluminescence can produce frequencies so high.

Inevitable dumb question: would it be possible to make smaller, lower-power and more portable x-ray machines using this?

I believe that's the primary question.

Imagine. Being able to take Xrays without the need of a power source and a huge xray machine. Put an Xray plate and a scotch-tape type xray source and then just rip the tape apart to take an xray. Sounds interesting...however, isn't the range of the xray miniscule?

[my_wan]

I seen a news piece on this and was curious. They made it sound like some kind of magic. It got me to thinking though. If you pressed the tape and roller together you could get a more consistent separation speed. It's possible that the efficiency depends on the jerkiness of the separation though. You could then add a vibrator to the rollers and test it at different pressures and vibrations frequencies. The rolls of scotch tape might eventually be replaced completely with a vibrator with replaceable sticky stuff. A sensor would automatically adjust the vibrator for a specific X-ray output. I wonder how reusable the same sticky is by running it through rollers. Perhaps just a disposable tape belt that can loop would work. You might even get a super powerful x-ray source by running the same strand of tape through lots of rollers. It would be a good idea look at the composition of scotch sticky stuff and tweak the ingredients a bit to see what happens. Find the right sticky stuff and you might find a cheap source for many frequencies. A $500 hospital grade x-ray source would of coarse be really cool.

The concept really should be researched to death.

I'm frankly amazed that triboluminescence can produce frequencies so high.

Inevitable dumb question: would it be possible to make smaller, lower-power and more portable x-ray machines using this?

Without a doubt. They took x-rays of their finger with their first try. The news piece I seen made it sound like they got the x-ray image in the scotch tape itself by accident, wrong. They used dental x-ray film. The only issue now is engineering a dependable consistent narrow band power output in a usable package. I'm far more surprised at the power output than I am the frequency. Terahertz would be far more surprising.

[arthwollipot]

The concept really should be researched to death.Indeed. If they can work out why scotch tape in a vacuum produces x-rays, they may be able to work out a device that uses the same principle without the actual scotch tape.

I don't think this is a practical machine unless it can somehow be generalised off the scotch tape.

[INRM]

Shalamar,

Why would you want to build yourself an X-Ray machine?

[Reality Check]

Indeed. If they can work out why scotch tape in a vacuum produces x-rays, they may be able to work out a device that uses the same principle without the actual scotch tape.

I don't think this is a practical machine unless it can somehow be generalised off the scotch tape.
Actually they do know why scotch tape in a vacuum produces x-rays

That's where electrons jumped from the roll to the sticky underside of the tape that was being pulled away, a journey of about two-thousandths of an inch, Escobar said. When those electrons struck the sticky side they slowed down, and that slowing made them emit X-rays. CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/10/22/scotch.tape.xray/index.html)

The surprises are the strength of the x-rays and the fact that they are produced in rapid pulses.

[ElMondoHummus]

The researchers suggest that the high charge density generated by peeling the tape could be great enough to trigger nuclear fusion.


So, there's a bigger risk to tape peeling than I had previously been aware of? :boggled:

All jokes aside, yes, the triboluminescence effect at work here should be studied further. That it's creating such relatively high energy densities is amazing.

[EvilBiker]

You know, it's news like this that gets me all geeky in the morning. I'm totally getting tape just for this... although I don't have the vacumn chamber at my disposal... :D

In case people want to read the Nature News article:

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081022/full/news.2008.1185.html


From your link:


Gentlemen: If X-rays can be created by something as benign as sticky tape maybe there is no need for scientists to allege that galactic black holes create the X-rays seen in space. Recall that Black holes were created by scientists to explain the X-rays seen in space (because only a black hole had enough energy to create an X-ray). Maybe there are NO black holes. Maybe the X-rays seen in space are created by some other as yet unknown process rather than being discharged from a black holes in space. This discovery may be proof that black holes do NOT exist.



Yup. The background X-rays are being produced by some supernatural entity unwrapping this box of marbles called the Universe! :D:D:D

Joking aside, though, this is really amazing. I agree with my_wan, this should be researched to death.

[Lonewulf]

I made a stupid post. I hope no one's responding to what I wrote before. If so, please note I deleted it. Please. XD

From the link quoted above:

Recall that Black holes were created by scientists to explain the X-rays seen in space (because only a black hole had enough energy to create an X-ray). Maybe there are NO black holes.

Hah. People seriously believe that?

[neutrino_cannon]

So, aside from particle radiation smacking into metal really, really fast, and scotch tape, what other known sources of x-ray radiation are there?

[Cainkane1]

This is the third time this topic has been in here. The x-ray properties only work in a vaccum. I might get a belljar and try it myself.

[Modified]

So, aside from particle radiation smacking into metal really, really fast, and scotch tape, what other known sources of x-ray radiation are there?

The Sun.

[arthwollipot]

Hah. People seriously believe that?There was a whole thread about it here once. Unfortunately it suffered from an overabundance of Jerome.

[Lonewulf]

That explains everything, pretty much.

[BenBurch]

So, aside from particle radiation smacking into metal really, really fast, and scotch tape, what other known sources of x-ray radiation are there?

Everything. All black bodies emit X-rays. Its a question of how much. and what the frequency (Kenneth) distribution is.

[alfaniner]

I guess I'd better be careful about leaving a roll of tape on the floor when I set my Roomba loose then...

Although it might be kinda cool to be able to see through my cat.

[Cuddles]

So, aside from particle radiation smacking into metal really, really fast, and scotch tape, what other known sources of x-ray radiation are there?

There are essentially six possible x-ray sources. Bremsstrahlung, synchrotron radiation, black body radiation and nuclear fission/fusion are the common sources. Electron transitions in atoms/molecules and Cerenkov radiation can both produce x-rays, but it is unusual for them to do so.

Particle radiation smacking into metal and scotch tape are both bremsstrahlung.