My Problem With The Protests

[RandFan]

First let me say that I do not find protesting anti-American or unpatriotic. Redress and petitioning ones own government is a fundamental civil right that all people are entitled to. It is only corrupt governments that do not allow such from their own people.

Where are the Iraqi dissenters? Dead or in jail or too scared of death or jail to speak out.

Well that is not the concern that I have posted a new topic for.

It is this--

For the last 50 years millions have died at the hands of the North Korean government. Children starve to death. There is public executions and no due process. People are imprisoned because of their political or religious beliefs. Parents commit genocide on a frightening scale because they don't want to witness their children suffering.

Where is the outcry? Where are the marches? Why are not people going to North Korea to sacrifice themselves to stop this mad man? Why do we not demand that something be done about this? And it is not just North Korea. Regimes throughout Africa are so oppressive that their people suffer on an almost daily bases. Where is the outcry against those governments? Why are not people doing something about that?

Why, it is simple, because no one cares enough to do something about it. That is a simple fact. When they do care enough they will do something about it.

Compare all of the atrocities that I mention and the others that I don't have the time to discuss to the upcoming war in Iraq. Most agree it will be short and Saddam will be ejected. Even the worst case scenarios agree that the United States will prevail. How many innocent lives will be lost? A million have died and few care, will a million die in Iraq? Many are dying now in Iraq. Do people care about those suffering now? Is the only real concern American imperialism?

I'm sorry I just don't buy the notion that these people care about the innocent people of Iraq. What about the innocent people of Bosnia when Clinton was dropping his bombs? What about the innocent people of Kosovo when Clinton was dropping his bombs there?

Why no posters that said "no war for Monica?"

Go, protest, do what you belive in your heart to be correct. I champion your right to do that. But with all due respect I don't accept that most of those in the streets really care.

And of course it is easy to blame the suffering of those in the Sudan or North Korea or Iraq or any where else on America. If your conscience bothers you, might I suggest that you do just that. Hell all of the problems of the world can be attributed to America if you try hard enough.

By the way, you might want to avoid the links. It will only cause you to think about problems that no one is going to march about today, tomorrow or ever.

Human Rights in North Korea (http://www.derechos.org/human-rights/nasia/nkorea.html)

PYONGYANG, North Korea (CNN) -- North Korea has acknowledged for the first time that children in the country are dying of malnutrition and that almost one child in seven is suffering as a consequence of severe food shortages, a spokesman for the U.N. Children's Fund (UNICEF) said Tuesday.

Scores of children dead in North Korea famine (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/08/korea.food/)

[Advocate]

I suspect North Korea will be next up for the US to deal with. But your point remains. There will always be other oppressive regimes. We will never be able to rid the world of suffering and oppression. And most of it will go unnoticed by the rest of the world. If people were really concerned with suffering then they should be applauding the US for cleaning up a mess it helped create and ensuring that there will be less suffering there in the future.

[shanek]

Originally posted by RandFan
Where is the outcry? Where are the marches? Why are not people going to North Korea to sacrifice themselves to stop this mad man? Why do we not demand that something be done about this? And it is not just North Korea. Regimes throughout Africa are so oppressive that their people suffer on an almost daily bases. Where is the outcry against those governments? Why are not people doing something about that?

Why, it is simple, because no one cares enough to do something about it. That is a simple fact.

I respectfully disagree. You absolutely cannot compare the motivations of those protesting actions of their own government with actions of a foreign nation. People all over America are protesting the war not only because they're against it, but because it has a tangible effect. It affects public policy and takes some of the thunder out of Bush's voice. It is beginning to force Congress to take a closer look at what is being done, whether or not it should be done, how it should be done, and to follow the Constitution.

But why would North Korea care that we're over here protesting them? What reason do we have to think that they would even listen to us?

No, my friend, you simply cannot compare the two at all.

[dsm]

Originally posted by RandFan

For the last 50 years millions have died at the hands of the North Korean government. Children starve to death. There is public executions and no due process. People are imprisoned because of their political or religious beliefs. Parents commit genocide on a frightening scale because they don't want to witness their children suffering.

Where is the outcry? Where are the marches? Why are not people going to North Korea to sacrifice themselves to stop this mad man? Why do we not demand that something be done about this?

Is this an Appeal to Pity (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ap.htm) to try to prove the world is a heartless place?

I blame the news media for not doing a better job of keeping all the atrocities of the world in front of our eyes 24 hours a day in a manner that would really assault our senses and stir up our emotions.

:mad:

[RandFan]

Originally posted by shanek
I respectfully disagree. You absolutely cannot compare the motivations of those protesting actions of their own government with actions of a foreign nation. People all over America are protesting the war not only because they're against it, but because it has a tangible effect. It affects public policy and takes some of the thunder out of Bush's voice. It is beginning to force Congress to take a closer look at what is being done, whether or not it should be done, how it should be done, and to follow the Constitution. Thanks for the response Shanek,

I think you can compare. Why are they protesting? Many say it is because it will cause suffering. If this is the case then I think it is inconsistent. If it is to keep American boys from dying or because they are concerned about the effect of the war on America then you are right. However that is not what I a see on TV.

But why would North Korea care that we're over here protesting them? What reason do we have to think that they would even listen to us? Well, I guess we should never speak out against atrocities in other countries. There is nothing we can do about it. Just turn your head and don't bother.

But wait...people were able to effect change in South Africa and India. Perhaps enough people with a common goal can make a difference or perhaps we shouldn't even try. Let's just stick with the United States.

No, my friend, you simply cannot compare the two at all. I can and do compare because they are worth comparing. And what about the outcry against Bosnia or Kosovo. No, I'm sorry I just don't buy it. If people cared and spoke out it is possible to do something about it.

[RandFan]

Hi dsm,

Good response, thanks.

Originally posted by dsm
Is this an Appeal to Pity (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ap.htm) to try to prove the world is a heartless place? No, I am simply showing the inconsistency of those protesting. And I am just saying that I am not buying it.

I don't believe we are heartless, I believe that the protests have little to do with people caring about strangers in a foreign land.

I blame the news media for not doing a better job of keeping all the atrocities of the world in front of our eyes 24 hours a day in a manner that would really assault our senses and stir up our emotions. It's impossible to keep people involved in all problems all of the time. We have lives and jobs and things that take our attention. However every once in awhile something grabs our attention. I just think that this is one that is not the most important issue in the world.

[dsm]

Originally posted by RandFan

No, I am simply showing the inconsistency of those protesting.


...and...


It's impossible to keep people involved in all problems all of the time.


Doesn't the second statement explain the first? ;)

Oh, and I wasn't saying that people are heartless -- just that the collective world is. There is no design in that. It's just the way it is.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by dsm


...and...



Doesn't the second statement explain the first? ;) Partly, but it doesn't answer my question. Why now? Why this issue? Why not Kosovo and Bosnia? I have a theory that I will give after some responses.

[shanek]

Originally posted by RandFan
Well, I guess we should never speak out against atrocities in other countries.

I didn't say that; but there is something to be said for focusing your energies where they will do the most good. Think of all the travesties being committed around the world. What if someone were to protest, say, 99% of them? His resources would be stretched very thin, and you'd still be able to pull out at least one more and say, "Well, why aren't they protesting against this?"

[RandFan]

Originally posted by shanek
I didn't say that; but there is something to be said for focusing your energies where they will do the most good. Think of all the travesties being committed around the world. What if someone were to protest, say, 99% of them? His resources would be stretched very thin, and you'd still be able to pull out at least one more and say, "Well, why aren't they protesting against this?" I can't argue with your logic. However I don't buy the "outcry". I find it hard to justify against a world of problems. And bear in mind we are talking about "world" protests. Why does the world only care about this problem to this extent? It is true that the sheer number of problems forces people to "pick their fights" (figure of speech). However, I'm not buying that the world collectively decided that now is a good time to protest because they have been waiting for the most efficient time to protest.

Damn good argument though.

[subgenius]

Randfan:
"Why, it is simple, because no one cares enough to do something about it. That is a simple fact. When they do care enough they will do something about it."
_______________________
Who are they?
It is you my friend. If you are concerned why are you not doing something about it?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by subgenius
Randfan:
"Why, it is simple, because no one cares enough to do something about it. That is a simple fact. When they do care enough they will do something about it."
_______________________
Who are they?
It is you my friend. If you are concerned why are you not doing something about it? I am not marching in protest. I realize that I am an ulikely person to change the world. I believe that our present course is the correct one. If I was outraged and believed that my actions could make a difference rather than just deeply saddened by the atrocities that are taking place across the world then the war in Iraq would certainly pale in comparison and I would seek other things to focus my attention on.

As to "who are they?" simple, the folks in the streets professing their concern for innocent people. I do not believe them. Plain and simple. Their lack of outrage for bigger atrocities while working up a full head of steam on this one leaves me asking why?

[dsm]

Originally posted by RandFan
As to "who are they?" simple, the folks in the streets professing their concern for innocent people. I do not believe them. Plain and simple. Their lack of outrage for bigger atrocities while working up a full head of steam on this one leaves me asking why?

George Bernard Shaw

Indifference is the essence of inhumanity.


Mark Twain

It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have these three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence to practice neither.


Benjamin Franklin

If you would persuade, you must appeal to interest rather than intellect.


George Washington

When men are irritated and the Passions inflamed, they fly hastily and cheerfully to Arms; but, after the first emotions are over, to expect, among such People, as compose the bulk of an Army, that they are influenced by any other principles than those of Interest, is to look for what never did, and I fear never will happen.


H. Ross Perot

Inventories can be managed, but people must be led.


:D

[Jon_in_london]

You protest to chnage the policy of your own government. There isnt much point in protesting to change the mind of some far-flung tryranny. Not much point is there?

[Russ]

You protest to change the policy of your own government. There isnt much point in protesting to change the mind of some far-flung tryranny. Not much point is there?
So the worldwide protests outside the U.S. against the Bush administration's war plans are pointless?
I agree with RandFan in that there are far worse things in the world going on than a violent overthrow of a dictator. The protests are not against war, but against the U.S. showing its willingness to act on its own. I think that these people simply fear living in a single superpower world. Although I support the U.S. policy toward Iraq, I understand people's more general concern about having any single country being able to impose itself on smaller countries.

[Graham]

I think it's important to remember that the majority of people are total sheep. Protesting against the American Imperialist Agressoprs is the cause du jour and the bandwagon-jumper-on-ers are out in force.

If protests about Korea got up a head of steam there'd be plenty of people marching about that too without giving it any more thought than they have protesting about America.

That said, I agree with shanek, no-one in their right mind would expect North Korea to give a toss how many people protested about their policies. In a way it's a compliment to the US that so many people expect them to behave so much better than most of the rest of the world.

Graham

[shanek]

Originally posted by RandFan
As to "who are they?" simple, the folks in the streets professing their concern for innocent people. I do not believe them. Plain and simple. Their lack of outrage for bigger atrocities while working up a full head of steam on this one leaves me asking why?

Well, this happens on the other side, too. The pro-war side goes on and on about Saddam killing innocent people but dismisses the innocents that will inevitably be killed in a war as "collateral damage."

I guess they would say, "You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs." But what they don't seem to concerned with is: whose eggs, how many of them, and will the omelet ever materialize?

[shanek]

Originally posted by Russ
So the worldwide protests outside the U.S. against the Bush administration's war plans are pointless?

Well, Bush wants at least the appearance of support from other countries. Protests in other countries take away some of his steam. It's not like North Korea is too worried about other countries supporting them in their atrocities.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by shanek
Well, this happens on the other side, too. The pro-war side goes on and on about Saddam killing innocent people... touché

[DialecticMaterialist]

Yes Randfan I noticed that too. A lot of so-called liberals, what I am starting to consider psuedoliberals, speak against the war against Iraq but nothing about the fundamentalist opression that goes on in the Middle East every day.

In any event, as for North Korea, that's unfortunate. But what do you expect the US to do about it? Try to invade and get slaughtered? Possibly go to war with China? Possibly get Nuked? Would it help matters to get ourselves killed over North Korea?

The US has to pick and choose its battles.

This isn't an action movie.

Shanek: I agree collateral damage is ugly. But in the long-run I think overthrowing Sadam will do Iraq more harm then good. Don't be an absolutist, sometimes you must commit some evil to promote the greater good.

Food for thought:

If Bush turned totalitarian dictator and China and the EU planned on overthrowing him,would you back them? Even if there was "collateral damage." I would.

[Thanz]

I find it quite perplexing that you are using North Korea as an example in favour of your arguments for war. Well, I guess it is not an argument for the war, but an argument against those who are against the war. However, my puzzlement remains. The argument you present here:

Originally posted by RandFan
As to "who are they?" simple, the folks in the streets professing their concern for innocent people. I do not believe them. Plain and simple. Their lack of outrage for bigger atrocities while working up a full head of steam on this one leaves me asking why?

can be easily modified to apply to the Bush administration.

"As to "who are they?" simple, the folks in the Bush administration professing their concern for Saddam and WMD. I do not believe them. Plain and simple. Their lack of outrage for bigger atrocities and threats while working up a full head of steam on this one leaves me asking why? "

Similarly, from your first post (modified by me):

"Where is the outcry from the Bush administration? Where is the military presence? Why is the US not going to North Korea to go to war to stop this mad man? Why do we not demand that something be done about this? And it is not just North Korea. Regimes throughout Africa are so oppressive that their people suffer on an almost daily bases. Where is the outcry from Bush against those governments? Why is the US not doing something about that?"

People in this forum have questioned the efficacy of protest, and whether any amount of protest will do any good. The US, on the other hand, is insisting that it can effect change and doo good in other countries. Why are they ignoring NK? Why go after Saddam, and leave a greater threat alone? The US CAN do something about it, and isn't. That is a far worse misdeed than someone not protesting the same actions, when that protest may have little effect (if any).

[shanek]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
Shanek: I agree collateral damage is ugly. But in the long-run I think overthrowing Sadam will do Iraq more harm then good.

Did you really mean to say that, or did you mean the other way around?

Don't be an absolutist, sometimes you must commit some evil to promote the greater good.

On that, we agree; my problem is I don't see any "greater good" coming out of this.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Thanz
I find it quite perplexing that you are using North Korea as an example in favour of your arguments for war. Well, I guess it is not an argument for the war, but an argument against those who are against the war. However, my puzzlement remains. The argument you present here: Why are you perplexed? It illustrates the hypocrisy so well. I can't imagine why it would be a puzzlement to you. Millions of innocent people are dead and are dying and there is no international furor. Yet when the possibility of a war that could hurt or kill thousands of people (many of who are suffering and dying at this very moment) are put in harms way there is a world wide outcry. It doesn't square IMO. I hope that clears up the confusion.

I understand your point but I think Shanek makes the better argument. Those that are supporting the president make the argument "hey Saddam is hurting people" so what? Well it should be a consideration but it can't be the overriding one or we would have to go elsewhere wouldn't we.

"As to "who are they?" simple, the folks in the Bush administration professing their concern for Saddam and WMD. I do not believe them. Plain and simple. Their lack of outrage for bigger atrocities and threats while working up a full head of steam on this one leaves me asking why? " Rings flat. Saddam invaded Kuwait and the United States with an international coalition evicted him. His willingness to invade a neighbor and his willingness to engage in a scorched earth policy made Saddam unique. The international community felt that he was a serious threat. His WOMD put him at the forefront for action. The UN passed a resolution and Saddam signed a cease fire agreement. He has yet to live up to either agreements. There are specific reasons why the US is taking up this action at this time.

"Where is the outcry from the Bush administration? Where is the military presence? Why is the US not going to North Korea to go to war to stop this mad man? Why do we not demand that something be done about this? And it is not just North Korea. Regimes throughout Africa are so oppressive that their people suffer on an almost daily bases. Where is the outcry from Bush against those governments? Why is the US not doing something about that?" We do have plans for dealing with North Korea. Because they have Nuclear weapons or actions will be different.

There are no similar reasons for the protestors. Sorry but the analogy just doesn't work IMO.

People in this forum have questioned the efficacy of protest, and whether any amount of protest will do any good. The US, on the other hand, is insisting that it can effect change and doo good in other countries. Why are they ignoring NK? Why go after Saddam, and leave a greater threat alone? The US CAN do something about it, and isn't. That is a far worse misdeed than someone not protesting the same actions, when that protest may have little effect (if any). We are not ignoring NK they are not the priority at this time. You can argue that they should be but you can't argue that there will be no action in the near future.

I on the other hand can assure you that there will be no action on the part of the protestors toward those suffering in North Korea.

Furthermore no one has addressed why there was no similar outrage to the US killing innocent people in Kosovo and Bosnia.

[dsm]

Originally posted by RandFan
I have a theory that I will give after some responses.


And your theory is? :confused:

I'm still leaning toward the news media as being at fault. ;)

[Doctor X]

That is what THEY want you to think. . . .

--J. "Clear off! Nothing to see!" D.

[Ed]

I think the problem is tthat the left has not given utterance to any outrage regarding NK, at least that I am aware of. Naturally, SA was a major target. Perhaps socialist/stalinist governments are proof against critisism by the left. it sure seems that way.

If you want to commit atrocities, broadly speaking, be either a black african government or have a people's paradise. Wonder why that is.

[dsm]

Originally posted by Doctor X
That is what THEY want you to think. . . .


But aren't THEY US? Aren't WE THEM?

Or maybe it's just a matter of perspective... :(

[dsm]

Originally posted by Ed

I think the problem is tthat the left has not given utterance to any outrage regarding NK, at least that I am aware of.


Perhaps that's because the right has not voiced any radical policy for dealing with the NK so the left is willing to "wait and see".


Naturally, SA was a major target.


SA?!? :confused:

[Bjorn]

And it is not just North Korea. Regimes throughout Africa are so oppressive that their people suffer on an almost daily bases. Where is the outcry against those governments? Why are not people doing something about that?

Why, it is simple, because no one cares enough to do something about it. That is a simple fact. When they do care enough they will do something about it. But Randfan, there are people here crying out against all the things that you mention, and all those you don't, like the treatment of farm animals or the killing of seals or how we get cancer from cellphones and Oswald was not alone.

There is just toooo many causes one could support actively (or protest against), and pure old clever marketing/PR decides what cause gets the coverage. In other words, the anti-war organisators were clever.

Maybe the easy march against a potential war in a far-away country is easier to market (and a lot more fun to participate in) than helping out in a freezing cold shelter for the homeless.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by dsm
And your theory is? :confused:

I'm still leaning toward the news media as being at fault. ;) All good things come to those who wait.

[Smalso]

Bump, because I want to subscribe to this thread so I don't lose track of it.

edit: (This may be another of RandFan's ten-pagers.);)

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
If Bush turned totalitarian dictator and China and the EU planned on overthrowing him,would you back them? Even if there was "collateral damage." I would.

You mean he isn't and they're not?

Will you be going for Ashcroft or Rumsfeld first?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ed
I think the problem is tthat the left has not given utterance to any outrage regarding NK, at least that I am aware of. Naturally, SA was a major target. Perhaps socialist/stalinist governments are proof against critisism by the left. it sure seems that way.

If you want to commit atrocities, broadly speaking, be either a black african government or have a people's paradise. Wonder why that is.

maybe because we don't need to. NK seems to be getting plenty of attention from other countries, without any need for urging.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Bjorn
But Randfan, there are people here crying out against all the things that you mention, and all those you don't, like the treatment of farm animals or the killing of seals or how we get cancer from cell phones and Oswald was not alone. What's that, Oswald was not alone? Get out, where did you here this?

There is just toooo many causes one could support actively (or protest against), and pure old clever marketing/PR decides what cause gets the coverage. In other words, the anti-war organisators were clever. It's not enough to go to work, be a good citizen and pay your taxes. You must be part of a "cause". I chose "stop women from putting on makeup while driving". We meet once a month in bob's garage, we play pool and drink beer. It's a great cause but I fear we are not making progress. Unless you count the size of our belly’s protruding over our belts.

Hey Jedi, if your interested we are looking for members.

Originally posted by RandFan
I chose "stop women from putting on makeup while driving". We meet once a month in bob's garage, we play pool and drink beer. It's a great cause but I fear we are not making progress.

You have a problem with women farding in their cars? ;)

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Ed
I think the problem is tthat the left has not given utterance to any outrage regarding NK, at least that I am aware of. Naturally, SA was a major target. Perhaps socialist/stalinist governments are proof against critisism by the left. it sure seems that way.

If you want to commit atrocities, broadly speaking, be either a black african government or have a people's paradise. Wonder why that is.

Ed,

It's because the leftists are still holding out hope that Kim Jong Il's "obvious" deity will one day be appreciated worldwide. ;)

-zilla

[gnome]

Originally posted by Ed
Perhaps socialist/stalinist governments are proof against critisism by the left. it sure seems that way.

If you want to commit atrocities, broadly speaking, be either a black african government or have a people's paradise. Wonder why that is.

Rest assured--I will disprove your fear by counterexample.

I am on the left, and I oppose stalinist governments on general principle, and oppose any government that commits atrocities.

I bet lots of liberals will agree with that, do you want us to sound off?