Israeli General Says - Hard Line Policies Not Working

[a_unique_person]

He appears to agree with me.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/30/1067233319979.html



Israel's top-ranking soldier believes that hard-line policies against the Palestinians are working against Israel's strategic interest and contributed to the downfall of the previous Palestinian prime minister, the Israeli media have reported.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was believed to be furious about the comments, attributed to military chief of staff Lieutenant-General Moshe Yaalon, Israeli television stations reported.

Leading Israeli newspapers carried the comments, attributing them to a senior military official. The media named him as General Yaalon, who made the remarks to Israeli journalists at a briefing on Tuesday.

Nahum Barnea, a leading Israeli columnist with the daily Yediot Ahronot, quoted a military official as saying comprehensive travel restrictions and curfews on Palestinians were harming Israel's overall security.

"It increases hatred for Israel and strengthens the terror organisations," Barnea wrote, quoting the official.

General Yaalon also said that Israel should have eased punitive measures to bolster the fortunes of Mahmoud Abbas, who resigned on September 6 after only four months as Palestinian prime minister.

"There is no hope, no expectations for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, nor in Bethlehem and Jericho," Barnea quoted the military official as saying. "In our tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interest".



The "no negotiations or easing of restrictions" policy is just a dead end. You can argue about moral correctness all you want, and how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

You still have to aim for the best outcome for the people involved on both sides of this ongoing war.

First the pilots, now the generals. I think when even the army says enough is enough, that Sharon has to rethink his bulldozer tactics.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
First the pilots, now the generals....

Hasty generalization....

*EDIT* Not to mention that there is no evidence this general said that.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by ssibal


Hasty generalization....

*EDIT* Not to mention that there is no evidence this general said that.
well, the site that A_U_P provided is most definitely evidence that this General said these things. I think you meant to say "no proof"? I think if this is widely reported in mainstream Israeli press by different journalists all claiming the same thing (that this was said to them by the General) then I think it is highly likely to be true. Lets see what the follow up is like....Is he going to deny saying it? Was it taped?

[ssibal]

Originally posted by The Fool

well, the site that A_U_P provided is most definitely evidence that this General said these things. I think you meant to say "no proof"? I think if this is widely reported in mainstream Israeli press by different journalists all claiming the same thing (that this was said to them by the General) then I think it is highly likely to be true. Lets see what the follow up is like....Is he going to deny saying it? Was it taped?

No, the site that he provided is the claim not the evidence. Evidence would be, for example, the transcript of the briefing where the general supposedly said those things. Anything else is an anecdote. At best, we have a third hand account. I agree, let us see the followup but a_unique_person has already accepted that the general said that as true. Where is the skepticism?

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by ssibal

Where is the skepticism?
Here? (http://www.philosophyonline.co.uk/tok/scepticism4.htm)

[webfusion]

I ran across this thread from some years ago and decided to drag it back into the Year 2006 ---

1. Do the hardline tactics have any effect? Here we are, the news of today:

Three Palestinian militants on Monday night were killed when an Israel Air Force missile struck a car in the northern Gaza Strip. 1-2-06

2. Is Abbas in need of 'bolstering' by Israel now?
http://smh.com.au/news/world/gaza-turmoil-puts-elections-in-doubt/2006/01/02/1136050394413.html
PA Election to be delayed due to turmoil in Gaza...

3. a_u_p's OP from 2003 -- "I think when even the army says enough is enough, that Sharon has to rethink his bulldozer tactics."

Apparently not...

[Mycroft]

Let's take a look at "soft line" tactics, namely the withdrawal from Gaza:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060102/wl_nm/mideast_smuggling_dc

Israel: Anti-aircraft missiles smuggled into Gaza

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Palestinians have smuggled anti-aircraft missiles into the Gaza Strip along with tons of other military hardware since Israel withdrew in September, an Israeli intelligence report said on Monday.

The missiles were smuggled into Gaza across the border from Egypt, the Shin Bet security agency's report said.

It said that Palestinian militants were acquiring anti-aircraft missiles primarily to thwart Israeli air strikes on militants in Gaza, but it said these weapons could in theory threaten civilian aircraft in Israel.

[Freakshow]

Let's take a look at "soft line" tactics, namely the withdrawal from Gaza:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060102/wl_nm/mideast_smuggling_dcI believe that sort of activity is one of the "catches" that The Fool complained about when asking many of us what "the catch" was about the Palestinians having their own state. It sure was one of my concerns.

[Mycroft]

I believe that sort of activity is one of the "catches" that The Fool complained about when asking many of us what "the catch" was about the Palestinians having their own state. It sure was one of my concerns.

I don't know if it is or not, but I read stuff like this and see tragedy comming.

Right now peace and independence could be had easily at the bargaining table. All it would take is to make the agreement, then make some real efforts at reform, and the whole world would jump at the chance to help them out.

What's likely to happen instead?

Probably a downed civilian airliner, hundreds of dead and retribution like nothing we've seen before.

[shalomsteph]

I don't know if it is or not, but I read stuff like this and see tragedy comming.

Right now peace and independence could be had easily at the bargaining table. All it would take is to make the agreement, then make some real efforts at reform, and the whole world would jump at the chance to help them out.

What's likely to happen instead?

Probably a downed civilian airliner, hundreds of dead and retribution like nothing we've seen before.

My baby girl (well, she's 15, but...) is flying to Israel tomorrow with her 9th grade class, so I hope you are very wrong. She is too young to be afraid, so I am terrified enough for both of us.:a2:

[Freakshow]

I don't know if it is or not, but I read stuff like this and see tragedy comming.

Right now peace and independence could be had easily at the bargaining table. All it would take is to make the agreement, then make some real efforts at reform, and the whole world would jump at the chance to help them out.

What's likely to happen instead?

Probably a downed civilian airliner, hundreds of dead and retribution like nothing we've seen before.Yep. Same old story. The people in charge of the Palestinian cause are either unwilling or unable (a bit of both is my guess) to do it themselves, and the arab world is unwilling to accept western help. And now without Israel controlling the border, terrorists will be able to bring heavier weapons into the area. It doesn't look good.

[a_unique_person]

I ran across this thread from some years ago and decided to drag it back into the Year 2006 ---

1. Do the hardline tactics have any effect? Here we are, the news of today:

Three Palestinian militants on Monday night were killed when an Israel Air Force missile struck a car in the northern Gaza Strip. 1-2-06

2. Is Abbas in need of 'bolstering' by Israel now?
http://smh.com.au/news/world/gaza-turmoil-puts-elections-in-doubt/2006/01/02/1136050394413.html
PA Election to be delayed due to turmoil in Gaza...

3.

Apparently not...

Apparently, yes. Eg, the Gaza withdrawal and the retreat behind the Wall. Of course, he could have negotiated the Gaza withdrawal, and given those trying to have a peaceful resolution the plaudits, rather than those using violence.

[Mephisto]

My baby girl (well, she's 15, but...) is flying to Israel tomorrow with her 9th grade class, so I hope you are very wrong. She is too young to be afraid, so I am terrified enough for both of us.:a2:

Having family on "the front lines" is definitely different than making generalized statements on an internet forum, isn't it, Steph? I chastise both sides of this war equally for "taking the hardline" as it SHOULD be apparent to all sides concerned that it's NOT working!

I think we've let the "hardliners" have control long enough - maybe it's time to hear from the people on BOTH sides who are tired of the violence and simply want peace - at whatever cost.

P.S. I'm sure your daughter will be alright, shalomsteph - I will worry along with you. I have a feeling that the conundrum of "the Holy Land" is that it's both safer than we know and more dangerous than we'll admit.

[zenith-nadir]

I think we've let the "hardliners" have control long enough - maybe it's time to hear from the people on BOTH sides who are tired of the violence and simply want peace - at whatever cost.The hardliners on the Israeli side feel the need to settle in what they refer to as biblical Judea and Samaria, which Jordan renamed the "West Bank" in 1949. This has caused no end of trouble for Israel.

The hardliners on the Palestinian side - Hamas and Islamic Jihad - feel the need to destroy Israel and replace it with an Islamic theocracy. They use terrorism as a tool towards that goal and are state-sponsored by Syria, Iran and other like-minded folks in the region.


The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm)

(second Paragraph)

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it".Other choice passages from the Hamas covenant are:

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm)

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

and

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad)...goal is the liberation of historical Palestine, destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with an Islamist state for Palestinians.

I often find the parallel drawn between the two sets of hardliners - jewish and muslim - hard to swallow considering their vastly different goals and modus operandi. Yet I agree wholeheartedly that the settlement of the West Bank should stop and the terror of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades should stop. Yet the disengagement from Gaza has lifted the veil off the myth that even removal of "zionist" settlements and abandoning territory will end the hatered and violence of the hard liners on the Palestinian side.

[Mycroft]

Apparently, yes. Eg, the Gaza withdrawal and the retreat behind the Wall. Of course, he could have negotiated the Gaza withdrawal, and given those trying to have a peaceful resolution the plaudits, rather than those using violence.

Except if they had negotiated the withdrawal, the negotiations would have failed, just like every other negotiation for the past thirty years.

I've got an idea; how about if those Palestinians trying to have a peaceful resolution (if you can identify them) earned their plaudits by actually living up to agreements they make?