Who wrote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

[Thunder]

I have read some of it, and I must say it is one weird document. Part of it is clearly plageurized from an earlier French document which doesnt mention a thing about the Jews, Gentiles, etc.

Clearly, the Protocols is meant to suggest that Jews are trying to take over the world and enslave Gentiles. It has nothing to do with Zionism or Israel, as these two subjects are NEVER brought up.

What I find interesting about it is how it seems to blaim Jews for things that only aristocrats and monarchys would hate, such as democracy, voting rights, liberalism, freedom of the press, etc. That makes me assume that it was written by the Russian Czars....in order to make all things modern and democratic seem "Jewish".

There is of course, another theory I have had, that it actually is some sort of manuscript for conquering society (a pathetic and stupid one at that..but legit). But they infused Jewish themes into it..so that it would quickly be disregarded as anti-Semitic garbage...as it has been by most intelligent residents of the Earth.

[zaphod2016]

I can't answer the question of authorship, but I can add a bit of trivia to this thread:

Henry Ford, a notorious antisemite, serialized the publication of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the early 20's. Funny how they don't mention this part in history class.

more information (http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Ford-Jews-Neil-Baldwin/dp/1891620525)

[Thunder]

I can't answer the question of authorship, but I can add a bit of trivia to this thread:

Henry Ford, a notorious antisemite, serialized the publication of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the early 20's. Funny how they don't mention this part in history class.

more information (http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Ford-Jews-Neil-Baldwin/dp/1891620525)

No. we learn of henry ford as a great contributor to american industry and society. funny how he loved george washington carver yet hated Jews.

though im sure in the bathroom he called him a "n----r".

and, henry ford recieved an iron cross from hitler. what a prick.

Ford trucks suck anyways. =)

anyways, is it agreed that the Romanovs and other European aristocratic families conspired to write the thing? I cant think of a better way of discouraging freedom, democracy, and liberalism, then by calling it "jewish".

[zaphod2016]

I've heard so many theories on the "Protocols" I don't know where to begin. Some even claim that it was invented by the Jews themselves.

I saw a program on the BBC once that compared early drafts to those later published in America, and found many significant differences. Also, some components of the "Protocols" were later copied into anti-Communist propaganda. The overall thesis of the program was that the "protocols" are not a definitive set of documents, but rather, a term loosely applied to a wide range of anti-Jew propaganda, tracing back hundreds of years.

Does anyone remember the name of this program? I'm almost certain it was the BBC, and I will try to find a copy online if someone can help me remember the name of it.

And, just to make sure this is said explicitly before the calvary arrives: the contents of the "protocols" are ludicrous and false.

[SDC]

Noooooooooooooooooooooo!!

I did not ask for this.

[plumjam]

Enid Blyton

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Well I suppose you could start here:
The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#The_Times_expo ses_a_forgery.2C_1921

It's not like there is any lack of information on the Intertubes. Though a bit of filtering may be required to find something truthful.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Protocols of the wise men of Zion, Library of Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress)'s Uniform Title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Title); Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): "Протоколы сионских мудрецов", or "Сионские протоколы" ; see also other titles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Title)) is an antisemitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic) tract alleging a Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) and Masonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry) plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28political%29) to achieve world domination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_domination). It has been proven to be a plagiarism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-0) literary forgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_forgery),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-3) fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-5) and a hoax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoax).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-8) It was first published in 1903 in Russian, in Znamya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Znamya_%28newspaper%29) ("The Banner," a newspaper). The text has failed to pass any scholarly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarly) standards of authentication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authentication) as an alleged historical document or record. A version of it was published in 1905, as a final Chapter XII in a second edition of a book by Serge Nilus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Nilus) on the subject of the coming of the Antichrist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist). Accordingly, "The Protocols" are originally intertwined with this author's Russian Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox) dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#cite_note-9)


Apparently the answer to your question "Who Wrote . . . etc?" is that no one quite knows. They have sort of morphed over the years.

[gtc]

Does anyone remember the name of this program? I'm almost certain it was the BBC, and I will try to find a copy online if someone can help me remember the name of it.

Was it a fairly recent documentary? Marc Levin did one called Protocols of Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_Zion_(film)).

I highly recommend the book Warrant for Genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_for_Genocide) by Norman Cohn.

It traces the protocols back to its origins and the historical myths it built on.

It seems likely that it was based on the Dialogue aux Enfers entre Montesquieu et Machiavel by a French lawyer called Maurice Joly. A supposed dialogue between Montesquieu and Machiavelli in, I believe, Hell.

It was a way to criticise Napoleon III without openingly naming him. It had nothing to do with the Jews and was actually a defense of liberalism.

The bits which suggest that it was a blueprint for the takeover of the world seem to have been added over the years by various authors for various purposes.

[Gazpacho]

Authorship of the Protocols per se is mainly attributed to the Czarist secret police, and the portions I've read carry the strong implication that liberalism in general was j00 conspiracy, apparently in the belief that this would make people support the conservative, monarchist order. To put it another way, the Protocols suggest only the institutions of monarchy stand in the way of j00 domination.

[dudalb]

Authorship of the Protocols per se is mainly attributed to the Czarist secret police, and the portions I've read carry the strong implication that liberalism in general was j00 conspiracy, apparently in the belief that this would make people support the conservative, monarchist order. To put it another way, the Protocols suggest only the institutions of monarchy stand in the way of j00 domination.

The most common theory is that the Czarist Secret Police rewrote the Joly Book that GTC mentioned to promote Anti Semitism.

[Gazpacho]

Yes, I'm aware of the connection to the Dialogues, but I don't think anyone would call that book a "version" of the Protocols or vice versa. There were fundamental changes from one to the other. The Dialogues as they were would never have achieved the same infamy.

[gtc]

Yes, I'm aware of the connection to the Dialogues, but I don't think anyone would call that book a "version" of the Protocols or vice versa.

Indeed. If it wasn't clear from my post, the Dialogues wasn't anti-semitic. It was an attack on the the actions of the French government of the day. The author of the protocols took large chunks of the Dialogues and made it look like they were the plans of the Jews.

[Skeptic]

According to Cohn, the author of the Protocols was probably a Russian monk, Segei Nilus (IIRC), who indeed ripped off Joly's work (which had nothing at all to do with the Jews and was, in any case, openly intended as fictional satire) and pretended Joly's satire represented (a) an actual cosnpiracy, (b) by the Jews.

The Protocols became popular in Russia due to their spreading by the Tzarist secret service. This was not so much, says Cohn, due to belief in their accuracy, but due to a desire to use antisemitism for political purposes -- e.g., making people blame everything on the Jews is a way to clear the Tzar of blame for Russia's problems, as well as making the opposition to the Tzar's absolutist rule seem part of a "Jewish conspiracy".

This, incidentally, does much to explain why "The Protocols" are so popular in the Arab world today.

[Travis]

It's sad that in large chunks of the Middle East The Protocols are considered an accurate historical text.

[mrbaracuda]

Was it a fairly recent documentary? Marc Levin did one called Protocols of Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_Zion_(film)).

Which you can watch on the interwebs for free! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7169205203825782546&ei=w34FSYy_C5K22wLv9OkB&q=protocols+of+zion)

[mrbaracuda]

It's sad that in large chunks of the Middle East The Protocols are considered an accurate historical text.

You mean like this one? Article Thirty-Two

[...]

Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there.[...] (http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html)

[mrbaracuda]

GAH

[Caustic Logic]

Clearly a forgery of unknown origins. Who really wrote the protocols? I dunno. Who's "Killtown?" Discussing its claims in the light of true or false is clearly stupid, but its origin and effects are worthy of discussion from both a rationalist and paranoiac PoV. For example:


Clearly, the Protocols is meant to suggest that Jews are trying to take over the world and enslave Gentiles. It has nothing to do with Zionism or Israel, as these two subjects are NEVER brought up.

Thanks, I always meant to look into just that question - does it mention the real and documented "Jewish Plot" to reclaim Palestine? Somehow I thought it didn't, being an ideologically motivated cartoon rather than minutes of any real meeting of jewish conspirators. What it did do was contribute to the mass wave of anti-Semitism that climaxed in the Holocaust and right after this the reclamation of Palestine and realization of the Zionist project. I'm not saying there's a conspiracy here, that would be huge and horrifying. This weird history just seems to write itself by deciding the balance of all the smaller hands writing their lines. Huh. A stupid piece of Russian propaganda (?) helps create Israel.

Also, in the shorter term,

What I find interesting about it is how it seems to blaim Jews for things that only aristocrats and monarchys would hate, such as democracy, voting rights, liberalism, freedom of the press, etc. That makes me assume that it was written by the Russian Czars....in order to make all things modern and democratic seem "Jewish".

Good point. I seem to recall somewhere, I think Ford, dissing on jazz music and passing on a line from the book about Hungarian melodies that 'slush and slide' - or something - as part of the great Jewish plot.

In fact, that was in the documentary of the same title, by Mark Levin. I really appreciate his approach there. Of note was the old, old rabbi he interviews near the beginning. When asked about the Protocols, he emphatically shuts down the question, saying people die when that book is mentioned, or something dire like that. Something we can't quite see is going on in his head there.

[gtc]

Who's "Killtown?"

He is a (former?) member here who is known for pushing conspiracy theories. Why do you mention him?

[Caustic Logic]

I know what he is/does/says (tho not real well). Actually I hear his name is Gus Killtown, but that don't sound right either. He claims to live in DC, once (still?) known as the murder capitol of the US, hence "Killtown," IMO.

I mentioned him to show how in our time, and probably all times, disinfo originators are often rather shady and unclear in identity and hard to pin down. Not the best exambple i suppose, but... just "who knows?" basically. For example, do we know the early publishers of the Protocols were real people and not some kind of alias-using fake journalists?

[zaphod2016]

Which you can watch on the interwebs for free! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7169205203825782546&ei=w34FSYy_C5K22wLv9OkB&q=protocols+of+zion)

gtc & mrbaracuda:

This was not the program I had mentioned, however, I just finished watching it, and I think it was simply excellent.

I lived in NY for a full decade; high school and college, and never once did I ever encounter antisemitism like that portrayed in this movie. I find that simply amazing- especially considering that I am attracted to conspiracy theory like a moth to a flame.

As a psudeo-Jew who has fought passionately for a two-state solution in Israel/Palestine, along with family in Israel I might add, it simply breaks my heart to see some this.

At 1:12 a young Palestinian man wearing a bandanna speaks some profound truth (paraphrasing): of course Jews and Palestinians can get along- I've seen it with my own eyes. But politics- politics works by making people fight each other.

Ain't that the sad, tragic truth.

Allah Akbar, and shalom to us all. That program hit me hard. It will be hard to sleep tonight.

[gtc]

It was very powerful.

Peace be with us all too.

[moon1969]

Boris Berezovsky did or maybe the Rothschild family? :D It was writen by Okhrana. Antisemitism is pretty big in Russia thanks to people like Boris Berezovsky, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Leonid Nevzlin, Vladimir Gusinsky and Roman Abramovich. Many skinheads in Russia used the fact that some of the oligarchs are jews as propaganda. Many people also say that AIPAC rules the USA even if Jack Abramoff is in jail.

[JihadJane]

What I find interesting about it is how it seems to blaim Jews for things that only aristocrats and monarchys would hate, such as democracy ...



"Democracy, n.: - A government of the masses. - Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of direct expression. - Results in mobocracy.- Attitude toward property is communistic... negating property rights.- Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Result is demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, [chaos]."

-U. S. Army Training Manual No. 2000-25 (1928-1932) - Source: published by the US War Department, Washington, D.C., November 30, 1928

[Thunder]

"Democracy, n.: - A government of the masses. - Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of direct expression. - Results in mobocracy.- Attitude toward property is communistic... negating property rights.- Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Result is demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, [chaos]."

-U. S. Army Training Manual No. 2000-25 (1928-1932) - Source: published by the US War Department, Washington, D.C., November 30, 1928

Ummmm..since when is the Army Training Manual of 1928, from the "US War Department", an authority on the definition of democracy?

[JihadJane]

Ummmm..since when is the Army Training Manual of 1928, from the "US War Department", an authority on the definition of democracy?

I just thought it was funny when you wrote that "only aristocrats and monarchys " would hate democracy. (Though I guess whoever put the training manual together could have been aristocracy.)

[Horatius]

Delete. changed my mind