Stammheim Deaths - suicide or murder?

[Matthew Best]

I just saw the movie "Baader Meinhof Complex" about the Red Army Faction terrorists in Germany in the 70s.

If you're of an age to do so, you probably remember that three of them (Andreas Bader, his girlfriend Gudrun Ensslin and Jan-Carl Raspe) died in Stammheim prison after attempts to free them by hijacking a Lufthansa plane and negotiating for their release were thwarted. The story at the time was that they had committed suicide - the two men shot themselves with guns smuggled into their cells, while Ensslin hanged herself. A fourth (Ingrid Moller) stabbed herself four times in the chest with a bread knife but survived.

At the time, I think it's safe to say that many leftist sympathisers assumed they had been murdered extra-judicially by elements of state security - after all, how was it possible that terrorists on trial for murder had managed to obtain not one, but two guns in secure cells; and the surviving terrorist claimed that she had no memory of stabbing herself - as far as I'm able to tell via a quick google, she continues to claim that.

So was it murder, or suicide?

(Incidentally, the movie is really good.)

[gambling_cruiser]

In the seventies authorities couldn't imagine that a defense lawyer would smuggle a gun to a terrorist and therefore the lawyers were not searched.
The police could have killed all terrorists at the time of their arrest, most of these murderers opened fire at the police without hesitance.
Germany spent years on the decision if absolut deadly force (Todesschuß-Debatte) is allowed or not to prevent a terrorist act.
The surpreme court denies the right to shoot down a hijacked plane even in a 9/11 like attack because authorities have no right to destroy innocent life (onboard the hijacked plane) and it can't be proven in advance that the hijackers will use the plane as an attackmissile.

[Matthew Best]

In the seventies authorities couldn't imagine that a defense lawyer would smuggle a gun to a terrorist and therefore the lawyers were not searched.

On what basis do you say that authorities "couldn't imagine" that terrorists might attempt to smuggle weapons into prison? This seems like a singular lack of imagination.

Also, although I hesitate to link to what is quite obviously a partisan website, but this page (http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/stammheim.htm) quotes Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung (October 27, 1977) as saying:
"Before visiting the terrorists, the lawyers also have to be searched with a metal detector. They have to deposit their bags in front of the visitors' room and aren't allowed to take a Dictaphone in with them. The prisoners receive new clothes and underwear after they have been stripped naked, both before and after the conversations with their lawyers."

[mrbaracuda]

They're dead and that's good.

[Matthew Best]

Yes, I had a feeling someone would respond with something like that.

And I'm not going to argue the point. I can't say I'm particularly sorry they're dead either.

Do you have anything on the OP, however?

[mrbaracuda]

No, and no one should waste their time with this scum.

[Matthew Best]

Have you seen "The Baader Meinhof Complex" yet? It was written by the same guy who wrote "Der Untergang" if that helps.

[mrbaracuda]

Have you seen "The Baader Meinhof Complex" yet? It was written by the same guy who wrote "Der Untergang" if that helps.

No, and no, it wasn't. Der Untergang is a good movie though.
I don't think I will watch it any time soon; maybe when it hits the TV.

[Matthew Best]

No, and no, it wasn't.


Do you mean it wasn't written by the same guy who wrote "Der Untergang"? Perhaps you'd better tell Bernd Eichinger (who I met last night incidentally) that his IMDB entry is incorrect (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0251536/#writer2000).

[mrbaracuda]

Thought it was Aust. My bad.

[KDLarsen]

Incidently, there was a bit of the same debate here in Denmark, when the last, and as it turned out, the key member of the Blekinge Street Gang was caught. He had been on the run for a period of time, after the other members of the gang were caught, and one morning he apparently fell asleep behind the wheel of his car and crashed into a lightpole.
For a while, there was a rumor that the police, via some unknown informer, had managed to drug him & that that was the reason why he crashed.

[mrbaracuda]

For a while, there was a rumor that the police, via some unknown informer, had managed to drug him & that that was the reason why he crashed.

Ugh. Maybe you've come across the conspiracy crap about Jörg Heider's accident, which is flourishing. :boggled:

[dudalb]

No, and no one should waste their time with this scum.


The Baedder Meinhoff gang will not be missed.
And the people who try to excuse what they did as "revolutionary action" are also ,IMHO,pretty scummy.

[gambling_cruiser]

On what basis do you say that authorities "couldn't imagine" that terrorists might attempt to smuggle weapons into prison? This seems like a singular lack of imagination.

Also, although I hesitate to link to what is quite obviously a partisan website, but this page (http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/stammheim.htm) quotes Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung (October 27, 1977) as saying:
Around the 30th anniversary of the Landshut-kidnapping and the GSG 9 action to free the passengers german tv showed several documentaries.
In one of these docus a former defense lawyer of the Baader-Meinhof-gang confessed to the smuggling of weapons into the prison and infos/orders out of the prison. The guy had served a long time sentence for asssistant murder in the '80s and '90s.
Maybe the quoted measures were taken after the Stammheim suicides or they were not done efficiently. Guns were hiden in cut-out books.
But I have no link, I rely on my memory.

[gambling_cruiser]

And I couldn't care less if they did/didn't commit suicide. The police shouldn't have arrested them, they had the opportunity to kill them during the gunbattles but failed miserably.

[Matthew Best]

Around the 30th anniversary of the Landshut-kidnapping and the GSG 9 action to free the passengers german tv showed several documentaries.
In one of these docus a former defense lawyer of the Baader-Meinhof-gang confessed to the smuggling of weapons into the prison and infos/orders out of the prison. The guy had served a long time sentence for asssistant murder in the '80s and '90s.
Maybe the quoted measures were taken after the Stammheim suicides or they were not done efficiently. Guns were hiden in cut-out books.
But I have no link, I rely on my memory.

Thanks, g_c, that's the sort of information I was looking for.

The movie makes it plain that they comittted suicide and the writer said afterwards that there was no doubt about it, but when I went looking on the internet it was difficult to find anything very conclusive about it.

One thing that the movie did not make clear is that it seems that Baader shot his weapon twice into the wall of his cell before shooting himself in the back of the head (which was thought by some to be highly unlikely), and I can only surmise that he did this in order to make it look like he'd been in some sort of gunfight and then executed. What a devious son of a [Rule 10].

Incidentally, I note that both Germans posting about this seem to be in favour of extra-judicial murder. Is that a national characteristic?

[mrbaracuda]

Incidentally, I note that both Germans posting about this seem to be in favour of extra-judicial murder. Is that a national characteristic?

No, that's just our way of showing how fond we are of communist scum like that.
Who's the 2nd German anyway?

[Matthew Best]

Austrian, German, it's all Greek to me.

(In other words, apologies to gambling cruiser for getting his nationality wrong.)

[gtc]

Austrian, German, it's all Greek to me.

(In other words, apologies to gambling cruiser for getting his nationality wrong.)

Its not like there's any real difference between Austrians, Germans and Swiss Germans.

[mrbaracuda]

Its not like there's any real difference between Austrians, Germans and Swiss Germans.

:eek: I take great offense at that statement. We Germans do not want to have anything to do with either of those! Those who have basement chambers for perverted things, or those who use the language of the hereditary enemy in large parts of their country! :mad:

[gambling_cruiser]

Its not like there's any real difference between Austrians, Germans and Swiss Germans.
Just like all english native speakers of the world share the same culture!:)

[Chaos]

Just like all english native speakers of the world share the same culture!:)


Bah! English, Scotsmen, Australians - they´re all Texans as far as I am concerned...



More seriously, I am not "in favor of extra-judicial murder", as Mr Best chose to put it. We have laws, and I am in favor of sticking to them. Leave murder and other crimes to the terrorists. And let the terrorists be duly convicted according to the laws, and then let them rot in prison.

[gtc]

Just like all english native speakers of the world share the same culture!:)

We do. The best culture in the world!


:)

[garethdjb]

Oliver Tolmein released a book in 2002: "RAF. Das war für uns Befreiung': Ein Gespräch über bewaffneten Kampf, Knast und die Linke mit Irmgard Möller " Perhaps she addresses the Stammheim issue there?

[Chaos]

Oliver Tolmein released a book in 2002: "RAF. Das war für uns Befreiung': Ein Gespräch über bewaffneten Kampf, Knast und die Linke mit Irmgard Möller " Perhaps she addresses the Stammheim issue there?

Perhaps. But it is exceedingly unlikely that we will get factually accurate information from her.

[garethdjb]

Ah, but if she did recant her original version, that'd refute the 'extra-judicial murder' charge.

[Chaos]

Ah, but if she did recant her original version, that'd refute the 'extra-judicial murder' charge.

Why should she?

The survivors of that generation of the RAF have too much of an ideological stake in the extra-judicial murder story to give it up. It gives them what they see as moral equivalency, at least, to the government.

[Childlike Empress]

Here are two interesting related audios (both german):

"Ein Richter, ein Verteidiger und ein Ex-RAF-Mitglied diskutierten beim WDR5-Funkhausgespräch am 8. Oktober 2007 über den RAF-Prozess in Stammheim. Die Basis dafür bildeten Tonband-Ausschnitte des damaligen Verfahrens." download (http://medien.wdr.de/download/20071017/online/wdr5_funkhausgespraeche_20071008.mp3)

and, broadcasted yesterday:

"Nach vierzig Jahren liegt noch immer der Mantel des Schweigens über den Verbrechen der RAF. Die Angehörigen der Opfer wollen nach so vielen Jahren endlich wissen, wer ihren Bruder, den Vater oder den Ehemann ermordet hat. Doch die Aufarbeitung der Verbrechen scheitert: Die Täter bleiben ebenso stumm wie der Staat. Der Verdacht verdichtet sich, dass es Kontakte gab zwischen staatlichen Stellen und Terroristen. [HR2] Der Tag fragt nach, wo hatte der Staat seine Finger im schmutzigen Spiel der RAF." download (http://mp3.podcast.hr-online.de/hronline/mp3/podcast/derTag/das_gesammelte_schweigen__sperrvermerke_statt_raf_ aufklaerung__.mp3)

edit: I recommend both podcasts to my fellow germans. Excellent radio worth our GEZ money.
WDR Funkhausgespräche (http://podcast.wdr.de/radio/fhgespraeche.xml)
HR2 Der Tag (http://podcast.hr2.de/derTag/podcast.xml)

[Childlike Empress]

While we're at it, HR2 Doppelkopf (http://podcast.hr-online.de/hr2_doppelkopf/podcast.xml) is another podcast worth recommending.

Last Tuesday:

"Der gewaltsame Tod ihres Patenonkels Alfred Herrhausen hat Carolin Emcke als junge Frau schockiert und geprägt. Ihr Buch "Stumme Gewalt" ist ein Plädoyer für die Aufklärung der Taten und ein Appell an die Täter, Gründe zu nennen." download (http://mp3.podcast.hr-online.de/hronline/mp3/podcast/hr2_doppelkopf/am_tisch_mit_carolin_emcke___raf-beschwoererin_.mp3)

Today:

"Prof. Michael Buback, der Sohn des von der RAF ermordeten Generalbundesanwalts Siegfried Buback, hat jahrzehntelang in der Überzeugung gelebt, die Mörder seines Vaters seien abgeurteilt worden und die Gerechtigkeit habe gesiegt. Im vergangenen Jahr aber hat er im Zusammenhang mit der Diskussion um die Begnadigung von Christian Klar eine Information bekommen, die sein Leben verändert hat: Die Verurteilten seien nicht die Mörder.." download (http://mp3.podcast.hr-online.de/hronline/mp3/podcast/hr2_doppelkopf/am_tisch_mit_michael_buback___raf-grundlagenforscher_.mp3)

[Oliver]

They're dead and that's good.


Ironically