Teaching hate in UK schools

[RandFan]

vCAapkJhBHQ

[Undesired Walrus]

I don't see anything, but perhaps it is my computer. What is it?

[Professor Yaffle]

Presumably something about Muslims?

[Undesired Walrus]

Presumably. Britain seems to be increasingly portrayed as the first worst travesty on Earth in this forum, occupied by crime, terrorists and Noel Edmonds.

[RandFan]

Sorry, it's fixed now. Here is the original link (http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,3292,Teaching-hate-in-UK-schools,Newsnight).

[RandFan]

Presumably. Britain seems to be increasingly portrayed as the first worst travesty on Earth in this forum, occupied by crime, terrorists and Noel Edmonds.Are you making a strawman?

ETA: I've not done any study but I strongly suspect that the USA holds that distinction at the moment.

[WildCat]

You see, the stories taught to children referring to Jews and Christians as monkeys and pigs are taken out of context... nothing to see here. (cue the usual apologists)

[Nogbad]

Are you making a strawman?

ETA: I've not done any study but I strongly suspect that the USA holds that distinction at the moment.

I'm sorry but you are going to have to prove Noel has moved to the States.

[geni]

A lot of allegedly in there. As told the story is posible. Text books are expensive so the use of sections of less than ideal (dated geography books tends to be a big one) books particularly as secondary books is not uncommon. School libaries can be somewhat worse in that respect.

[Darat]

Thankfully in England (this is not a UK issue - education is a devolved matter) if these allegations are true the strongest sanction could be applied (which is to close down the school) even though it is a private school.

[RandFan]

A lot of allegedly in there. As told the story is posible. Well the guy is holding up the texts and the woman admits a.) these texts are used by the school and b.) doesn't deny the words in the texts or offer a different translation or context and c.) would not condemn such language but only said that the schools don't teach intolerance.

[RandFan]

I'm sorry but you are going to have to prove Noel has moved to the States.:) No but it looks like our luck might not hold for Madona.

[zooterkin]

Is it just me, or is posting a link on a text based discussion forum to a video with no indication of the content or where it's from annoying for others too?

Anyway, to save others a little time, it's a section from Newsnight about text books in the King Fahad school. I don't know when it was broadcast, but the same story was covered on the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6341595.stm) nearly two years ago.

ETA: From that story, the broadcast was around the same time. Shouldn't this be in History, rather than Current Events?

[WildCat]

Shouldn't this be in History, rather than Current Events?
No. It's a social issue, and a current one.

[geni]

Well aparently the school was cheating. The books however have been destroyed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7347648.stm

oh and to mess with the heads of daily mail readers:


The school was unable to comment on the final judgment which saw Mr Cook awarded £58,800 for loss of earnings and a further £10,500 for injury to his feelings.

"Teacher paid £10,500 for hurt feelings shock" headline anyone?

[WildCat]

Just remember, these things being taught to children from textbooks produced by the Saudi education ministry are the views of only a tiny minority of Muslims.

And they were ancient outdated textbooks, printed way back in 2005.

[RandFan]

Is it just me, or is posting a link on a text based discussion forum to a video with no indication of the content or where it's from annoying for others too? Fair complaint. I appologize and will do better in the futre.

Anyway, to save others a little time, it's a section from Newsnight about text books in the King Fahad school. I don't know when it was broadcast, but the same story was covered on the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6341595.stm) nearly two years ago.

ETA: From that story, the broadcast was around the same time. Shouldn't this be in History, rather than Current Events?It was posted on Richard Dawkins site yesterday. I didn't know that it was two years old. Sorry. That said, I don't know that the fact that it is two years old justifies putting it in history. Islamic influence is on the rise and there is a lot to be concerned about.

http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/

[RandFan]

Well aparently the school was cheating. The books however have been destroyed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7347648.stm

Cool. Thank you.

[geni]

Just remember, these things being taught to children from textbooks produced by the Saudi education ministry are the views of only a tiny minority of Muslims.

Well yes roughly those that work for the Saudi education ministry. The hard fundimentalists (eg traditional tribal groups in saudi arabia) would regard them as far too liberal. Saudi arabia works out at about 2% of the islamic population btw.



And they were ancient outdated textbooks, printed way back in 2005.

You've had dealings with the UK national curriculum I see. 2005 I don't think they had started looking to implement the looming distaster known as the English Baccalaureate program. I'm not sure they had killed of the Vocational A levels at that point and key stage 3 SATs were still going.

[WildCat]

Well yes roughly those that work for the Saudi education ministry. The hard fundimentalists (eg traditional tribal groups in saudi arabia) would regard them as far too liberal.
Damn liberals!

Saudi arabia works out at about 2% of the islamic population btw.
And as we all know Saudi Arabia has no influence at all on Islamic thought. Just like only .00003% or so of the world's Catholics live in Vatican City.

[geni]

Damn liberals!

There was a fair bit of fuss when the house of saud decided to build some girls schools.


And as we all know Saudi Arabia has no influence at all on Islamic thought. Just like only .00003% or so of the world's Catholics live in Vatican City.

Islam is a lot less structured than catholicism. Some will pay a lot of attention to Imams in saudi arabia. Others like say bin larden less so.

[Skeptic]

You see, the stories taught to children referring to Jews and Christians as monkeys and pigs are taken out of context... nothing to see here. (cue the usual apologists)

The original Arab says that Christians and Jews are CUTE pigs and CUDDLY monkeys. By leaving out those two words, the evil Islamophobes totally distort the picture.

Besides, it's all Zionism's fault anyway.

And Bush is an idiot.

Hmmmm, I think I've covered all the bases.

[Undesired Walrus]

Are you making a strawman?


In this case, a slightly unserious exaggeration is not a strawman.

[RandFan]

In this case, a slightly unserious exaggeration is not a strawman.Oh really? Well, no one is making any such argument so it is a strawman. Serious, not serious or exaggeration notwithstanding.

[Undesired Walrus]

Ok, I concede that.

[RandFan]

Now I've got to be careful not to make a strawman. That's cool UW. I can take the chip off my shoulder.

[dudalb]

Wow ,another British School Teacher in the tradition of Squeers and Mr Creakle.

[Undesired Walrus]

I had chips tonight. I have to look at Chinese Horoscopes while I am waiting for them. Worth it for having a Fish and Chip Shop round the corner.

[JihadJane]

Presumably. Britain seems to be increasingly portrayed as the first worst travesty on Earth in this forum, occupied by crime, terrorists and Noel Edmonds.

All true, especially the third one.

[Gurdur]

....I can take the chip off my shoulder.


The Age Of Miracles is not over, then.

[RandFan]

All true, especially the third one.I had no idea who Noel Edmonds is. Thank god for youtube. :)

[slingblade]

God goes to YouTube? Dang, that guy really is everywhere.

[Professor Yaffle]

It' worth having people likee Edmonds to give Chris Morris targets for his shows.

(NSFW - sweary)
cZgg7o91EWU

Shatner's Bassoon!!

[geni]

God goes to YouTube? Dang, that guy really is everywhere.

I'm not sure how worried we should be that godtube is one of the few youtube clones to be remotely sucessful.

[Francesca R]

Is it just me, or is posting a link on a text based discussion forum to a video with no indication of the content or where it's from annoying for others too?It was posted on Richard Dawkins site yesterday. I didn't know that it was two years old. Sorry. That said, I don't know that the fact that it is two years old justifies putting it in history. Islamic influence is on the rise and there is a lot to be concerned about.

http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/Well I tend to find the above a tad irritating too--(as in "Saw this on «celebrity sceptic of choice»'s blog/board and so copied it without actually finding out much"). To me that tends to take from what might once have been level-headed analysis and turn it into anti-religious ranting, complete with nice tabloid headlines.

And if what you're really concerned about is the highlighted part, why not just start a topic saying that?

[RandFan]

Well I tend to find the above a tad irritating too--(as in "Saw this on «celebrity sceptic of choice»'s blog/board and so copied it without actually finding out much"). To me that tends to take from what might once have been level-headed analysis and turn it into anti-religious ranting, complete with nice tabloid headlines.

And if what you're really concerned about is the highlighted part, why not just start a topic saying that?You've lost me. Apparantly I've done something wrong and I'm not sure what it is. Let me make clear my intentions and then could you please clarify?

I'm an atheist. I was a former Christian who served a mission, a real true believer. I'm for the separation of church and state. I'm happy to live and let live. However, Islam, as a political movement, doesn't have a live and let live philosophy. It views non-believers as, well, infidels. It seeks to enforce Islamic values on everyone else. Islam literally means submission. Submission to the will of Allah. What is Allah's will? Apparently the subjugation of women, the killing of homosexuals and the conversion or killing of the kafir. And please don't give me this "it's not in the Koran" BS. It is in the Hadith. And yes, I know there is a lot of killing and license for killing in the bible. I'm an equal opportunity complainer. I complain about all of the Abrahamic faiths. However Islam is the most worrisome at this time. Women really are being subjugated, beaten and killed.

No, not all Muslims share these ideals but enough do to cause serious concern. Please go back to the OP, read my disclaimer and then explain to me exactly what it was that I did wrong. I'm not beyond apologizing for my mistakes. Perhaps I have done so in this thread. If so then I will indeed apologize.

Thank you.

[Francesca R]

If I find it a bit tedious that doesn't mean it's wrong, you don't need to cater to me. In the meanwhile I'll not get worked up that UK schools are teaching hate.

[RandFan]

If I find it a bit tedious..."Tedious"? I think you are in the wrong forum.

...that doesn't mean it's wrong, you don't need to cater to me. In the meanwhile I'll not get worked up that UK schools are teaching hate.Hey, I'm all for choice. Nothing could make me happier than you exercising your freedom to choose. Ok, Dallas winning the Super Bowl would make me happier. :)

[Gurdur]

"Tedious"? I think you are in the wrong forum.



No-one needs be tedious. Tediousness is a matter of choice. Perhaps it's you in the wrong forum and on the wrong board, given your usual reactions to anyone being skeptical of your wilder claims.

I do see, however, you're hell-bent on taking that course. Now do pay attention, here's an enlightening little example for you:

Let's say you are a poster, and you find a two-year-old video of some Banjo-primitive school in Alabama where the teachers go in for some hate session directed against their hate object of choice.

You then as a poster open a thread with the (grossly misleading) title:
"Teaching hate in USA schools"


See now just how idiotic that is? Extrapolating or strawmanning from one tiny event to an entire country?

Or will you simply get all personally abusive yet again because that's what you really want? It's not exactly reason and reasonableness you're after, is it?

Perhaps you really should only discuss things with Oliver, as the rest of us don't seem to be on your wavelength. BTW, at some stage you should think about selling some of the timber from that chip on your shoulder; it's quite a massive amount by now, and it could easily make you quite rich.
:)

[jdp]

I do see, however, you're hell-bent on taking that course. Now do pay attention, here's an enlightening little example for you:

Let's say you are a poster, and you find a two-year-old video of some Banjo-primitive school in Alabama where the teachers go in for some hate session directed against their hate object of choice.

You then as a poster open a thread with the (grossly misleading) title:
"Teaching hate in USA schools"


While I can see where you're going with your example, I think you would have to go quite a bit further back than two years. Sure there are plenty of racist and such in all parts of the US but the kind of vitriol displayed in those book proabably couldn't be found in a US classroom even 40 years ago. In 8 years of 'Sunday School' I don't ever remember material denigrating people of other faiths or races, ever.

If it was found, today, it should proabably cost the principle, superintendent, the school board, and the teachers involved their jobs. It should trigger an audit of the entire curriculum and the school should be put under a microscope for the next couple of years, whether public, private or parochial. That is dangerous material and should be taken very seriously. Which makes me wonder how they handled it.

[lionking]

Back on topic, in England, to what extent are religious schools publicly funded? In Australia, billions of dollars go to private schools, religious or otherwise. Would schools like the one in question be funded predominately by parents or Islamic groups?

[Francesca R]

As far as I know, only (some) Christian schools receive public funding since that is the "state religion" (the PM appoints, or has final say in appointing, the most senior priest). Some atheists get outraged about that but then some of them get outraged pretty easily. Others just lie about their religion to get children into such schools since some of them have a fine academic record and there is little worry that they teach hate (they merely teach some imaginary stuff).

Someone will correct me pretty fast if other religions also qualify for state aid. Undoubtedly in some respects, since even independent schools do for some things (like the government rebates part of the cost of all education* for 3-5 year olds I think.)

*not matrix algebra at that stage

[lionking]

I guess my point is that if the public provides significant funding to the school, it is more justifiable to sanction it.

[Darat]

Back on topic, in England, to what extent are religious schools publicly funded? In Australia, billions of dollars go to private schools, religious or otherwise. Would schools like the one in question be funded predominately by parents or Islamic groups?

There are over 6,500 "faith" schools in England, which I think split to something 6000 primary schools (up to age 11) and 500 secondary schools (11 and above). The vast majority are Church of England, and then Roman Catholic and a few other Christan denominations have a handful between them. And I believe nowadays we have several Muslim, Sikh and Hindu ones.

The day-to-day running costs are funded the same way as all other state schools in the England, new schools can get about (I think this may have changed upward) about 85% of the cost of building the new school paid for by government.

They do still have to teach the national curriculum the same as any other state school but many do also teach their own faith.

[Francesca R]

As per Darat's post on page 1, any school can be sanctioned for "teaching hate" since schools have statutory duties, and are regulated by OFSTED, regardless of how they are maintained.

[lionking]

Fair enough. The fastest growing sector in our education system are evangelical Christian and Muslim schools, and I'm sure the same sort of regulation applies here. I recall some threats of withdrawal of government funding to schools which veered from the standard curriculum. I will look it up.

[Darat]

As far as I know, only (some) Christian schools receive public funding since that is the "state religion" (the PM appoints, or has final say in appointing, the most senior priest).

...snip...

It's the Church of England that is the state religion not "Christianity", and that's not just a pedantic correction that's in the fabric of the law of the land.


Some atheists get outraged about that but then some of them get outraged pretty easily. Others just lie about their religion to get children into such schools since some of them have a fine academic record and there is little worry that they teach hate (they merely teach some imaginary stuff).

...snip...

Achieved probably with a little bit of help from their use of unethical and not allowed selection criteria (http://www.schoolsadjudicator.gov.uk/RMS_upload/ACF7347.pdf)....

(Report supporting the figures I gave for number of faith schools : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7587849.stm )

[RandFan]

Some atheists get outraged about that but then some of them get outraged pretty easily. Athiests are human. Perhaps. Still, no one needs to hire body guards because of outraged atheists. Can't say the same for Deeya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deeyah#Success_and_controversies), Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deeyah#Success_and_controversies), Salman Rushdie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie) and Danish cartoonists (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article726508.ece).

...(they merely teach some imaginary stuff). Ok children, it's our duty as educators to teach you evident falsehoods. I guess as long as it isn't hate. It's not like the purpose of education is teach the truth.

[Francesca R]

Athiests are human. Perhaps. Still, no one needs to hire body guards because of outraged atheists. Can't say the same for Deeya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deeyah#Success_and_controversies), Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deeyah#Success_and_controversies), Salman Rushdie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie) and Danish cartoonists (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article726508.ece).Rather off topic unless you think you can make a case that such examples of hatred are taught in UK schools.

Ok children, it's our duty as educators to teach you evident falsehoods. I guess as long as it isn't hate. It's not like the purpose of education is teach the truth.
I guess "Teaching religion in UK (faith based) schools" just doesn't have that sensationalist topic title bite does it?

[Last of the Fraggles]

Going by the people I deal with on a day to day basis I would suggest the BEST way to ensure that people do not learn hate in the UK is to teach it in schools - it certainly seems to have worked for Maths, English and Science.

[Francesca R]

The cube root of 512 is 8 . . .

"To boldly go" is a split infinitive . . .

1 mole of any gas at STP occupies 22.4 cubic dm . . .

--Eat it ;)

[RandFan]

Rather off topic unless you think you can make a case that such examples of hatred are taught in UK schools. It's a response to your point. Was your point off topic?

I guess "Teaching religion in UK (faith based) schools" just doesn't have that sensationalist topic title bite does it? Again, I'm simply responding to a point you made.

[luchog]

I guess my point is that if the public provides any funding to the school, it is more justifiable to sanction it.
Fixed that for you. :)

[lionking]

Fixed that for you. :)

No you didn't. I see a difference between the government providing incidental funding and being a major donor, just as a major shareholder in a company has some say in how that company runs, but someone with only a handful of shares has virtually no say.

[Undesired Walrus]

I went to a Catholic school, although the Catholicism was pretty superfluous given that we had about 15% Muslims, 10% Hindus/Sikhs.

I remember one time when a Muslim student was threatened with detention if he didn't recite the Lord's prayer in RE class, but that was more a funny event than a serious matter.

One time I remember strongly was when we were in RE only for the running television to turn to static. The teacher turned round in puzzlement, only for a student to shout 'It was the devil's work!'. The teacher whipped round to scream 'It was not the devil's work! It was not the devil's work!' in his strong Irish accent.

Good times.