Dark-Witchcraft.com

[TechMage]

http://www.dark-witchcraft.com/

*sigh*

Would someone please just go make a TV show where Bill Nye the Science Guy or someone goes "ok kids, for today's show we are going to try to make a spirit appear in our local cemetery, using just words, incense, and a few other ingredients all taken from an ancient "magical" grimiore from the Middle Ages when people thought the sun revolved around the earth and meteorites were actually falling stars. It makes absolutely no sence at all why these ingredients and words will summon this spirit, but hell we are going to try it out anyway."


It's sad to see more and more people believing in totally illogical crap like this.


The other day I went into this "hippish" type store and the lady who works in the store calls herself a "witch." As I was browsing the items in the store I overheard her conversation with a few other locals and she was telling them how to stop a male friend of their's from harming his girlfriend. They were not even for sure that this man was abusing or will abuse his girlfriend, but they had done a Taro card reading that said he probably would. So she was telling them to take a lock of his hair and bury it and that would prevent him from harming his girlfriend. Come on people, this is the year 2003, not 1403!

*sigh* I'm depressed now.

[geni]

witchcraft meets charitos of the gods meets astrogogly meets selitive bible reading meets insanity

[Goshawk]

To me, the most bizarre part is the section on "Christian witchcraft". Witchcraft is condemned repeatedly in the Bible, yet this person says:
A "Christian Witch" is somebody who combines Christianity with Witchcraft. I have already explained my beliefs as far as Christianity go in the about section of the site, I incorporate psalms or saints into spells, I believe in Jesus Christ, but do not follow the bible and it's teachings.
This is someone with a serious "disconnect".

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by TechMage
http://www.dark-witchcraft.com/

*sigh*

Would someone please just go make a TV show where Bill Nye the Science Guy or someone goes "ok kids, for today's show we are going to try to make a spirit appear in our local cemetery, using just words, incense, and a few other ingredients all taken from an ancient "magical" grimiore from the Middle Ages when people thought the sun revolved around the earth and meteorites were actually falling stars. It makes absolutely no sence at all why these ingredients and words will summon this spirit, but hell we are going to try it out anyway."


It's sad to see more and more people believing in totally illogical crap like this.


The other day I went into this "hippish" type store and the lady who works in the store calls herself a "witch." As I was browsing the items in the store I overheard her conversation with a few other locals and she was telling them how to stop a male friend of their's from harming his girlfriend. They were not even for sure that this man was abusing or will abuse his girlfriend, but they had done a Taro card reading that said he probably would. So she was telling them to take a lock of his hair and bury it and that would prevent him from harming his girlfriend. Come on people, this is the year 2003, not 1403!

*sigh* I'm depressed now.

Why are you saying it is illogical? This seems to imply there is something inherently incoherent about expecting something like spells to actually work. Was this your intention? If so could you elaborate?

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Why are you saying it is illogical? This seems to imply there is something inherently incoherent about expecting something like spells to actually work. Was this your intention? If so could you elaborate?
Umm...probably because they don't really work. Is it your intention to imply that there is something inherently coherent or rational about expecting magic spells to actually summon spirits? Other than facilitating someone's imagination, I mean.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

Umm...probably because they don't really work. Is it your intention to imply that there is something inherently coherent or rational about expecting magic spells to actually summon spirits? Other than facilitating someone's imagination, I mean.

No, I'm just wondering if the original poster felt that it is not simply a question of the lack of evidence for the causal efficacy of spells etc, but whether there is something internally inconsistent about the notion that spells could work.

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by Goshawk
To me, the most bizarre part is the section on "Christian witchcraft". Witchcraft is condemned repeatedly in the Bible, yet this person says:

This is someone with a serious "disconnect".

Isn't that Hoodoo? Jamaican Voodoo mixed with Christainity? Anywhat, that's what it reminds me of.

It's not like Xians haven't 'creativley' interpreted the bible or flat out ignored stuff in it before. *Shrugs*

[espritch]

No, I'm just wondering if the original poster felt that it is not simply a question of the lack of evidence for the causal efficacy of spells etc, but whether there is something internally inconsistent about the notion that spells could work.

Who cares if the notion of spells is internally consistent? It either works or it doesn't. If it works, there should be some evidence that it works. If there is non, we can safely assume it doesn't work. Internal consistency is irrelavant.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by espritch


Who cares if the notion of spells is internally consistent? It either works or it doesn't. If it works, there should be some evidence that it works. If there is non, we can safely assume it doesn't work. Internal consistency is irrelavant.

Yet another of Ian's "rational" arguments refuted.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Goshawk
To me, the most bizarre part is the section on "Christian witchcraft". Witchcraft is condemned repeatedly in the Bible, yet this person says:

A "Christian Witch" is somebody who combines Christianity with Witchcraft. I have already explained my beliefs as far as Christianity go in the about section of the site, I incorporate psalms or saints into spells, I believe in Jesus Christ, but do not follow the bible and it's teachings.


This is someone with a serious "disconnect".

I disagree. Sure the "witch" angle is a bit unusual, but there's a question of ideological historical prestige in believing in Jesus Christ. You can make up your own Jesus as needed.

How is this significantly different from the gay bishop, or any of various odd sects? Only in being individualistic.

[Yahweh]

I suggest you take a read of the guestbook (http://pub24.bravenet.com/guestbook/show.php?usernum=2053250375&vid=).

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

espritch
Who cares if the notion of spells is internally consistent? It either works or it doesn't. If it works, there should be some evidence that it works. If there is non, we can safely assume it doesn't work. Internal consistency is irrelavant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yet another of Ian's "rational" arguments refuted.[/B]

Pay attention TBK. I haven't made any arguments! LOL

Espritch,

For all sorts of reasons I care if the notion of spells is internally consistent or not. For a kick off, if we had excellent reasons to suppose the alleged causally efficacy of spells is internally inconsistent, then we need not bother investigating the claims.

[Vitnir]

wow someone has put in a lot of man-hours there

Christian Witchcraft sounds like an oxymoron to many people

Um yea it does.

In my opinion, the only reason Witchcraft was proscribed was out of fear

I don't know if Witchcraft was proscribed by the church, prosecuted maybe :p (Probably right, if someone says they are in contact with the devil, no wonder the good guys try to do something about it. )

All in all, this site has all that needs in a religion and starting a religion is a good way to get rich fast.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
No, I'm just wondering if the original poster felt that it is not simply a question of the lack of evidence for the causal efficacy of spells etc, but whether there is something internally inconsistent about the notion that spells could work.
Ah, I understand now. I don't see anything internally inconsistent about the notion that spells could work. In fact, since some old spells involved the use of certain herbs that induce hallucination or altered states of consciousness, it could be argued that such spells do work, if not for the purposes originally intended, such as invoking spirits. Nowadays that process is much simpler. ;)

[espritch]

For all sorts of reasons I care if the notion of spells is internally consistent or not. For a kick off, if we had excellent reasons to suppose the alleged causally efficacy of spells is internally inconsistent, then we need not bother investigating the claims.

Blue pixies are magical beings that you can only see if you believe in them. I believe in them so I can see them. You do not so you can not.

The blue pixie theory is entirely internally consistent. It does not, however, make any claims that you can actually test. Do you feel any need to bother investigating this theory? It isn’t the internal consistency of the blue fairies theory that is important, it’s whether testable claims (i.e. observable effects) arise from the theory. Those claiming to be able to cast spells also claim their spells can affect the real world. If a theory makes no testable claims, we need not bother to investigate it regardless of internal consistency. If a theory makes testable claims but fails to pass the tests, we need not bother to investigate it further regardless of internal consistency.

All relevant theory starts from observation. The acceptance of any theory is ultimately contingent on it’s ability to predict further observation. Without an observational basis, any theory, internally consistent or not, is meaningless.

[espritch]

Removed double post.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by espritch
Blue pixies are magical beings that you can only see if you believe in them. I believe in them so I can see them. You do not so you can not. to investigate it further regardless of internal consistency.

There is no contradiction in believing in an invisible pink unicorn.

It must be understood that the pinkness is inherent but that the invisibility an acquired state as by a ring, cloak, potion, or spell of invisibility. This in no way negates the underlying pinkness.

Capisce?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by espritch


Blue pixies are magical beings that you can only see if you believe in them. I believe in them so I can see them. You do not so you can not.

The blue pixie theory is entirely internally consistent. It does not, however, make any claims that you can actually test. Do you feel any need to bother investigating this theory? It isn’t the internal consistency of the blue fairies theory that is important, it’s whether testable claims (i.e. observable effects) arise from the theory. Those claiming to be able to cast spells also claim their spells can affect the real world. If a theory makes no testable claims, we need not bother to investigate it regardless of internal consistency. If a theory makes testable claims but fails to pass the tests, we need not bother to investigate it further regardless of internal consistency.

All relevant theory starts from observation. The acceptance of any theory is ultimately contingent on it’s ability to predict further observation. Without an observational basis, any theory, internally consistent or not, is meaningless.

I'm sorry but I'm unclear what your position is here. Presumably most spells, if they work, would have observable effects. So does this mean that they are worth investigating despite the fact that their existence would contradict our ideas on how reality operates? Have they been investigated? If so what were the results?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
I'm sorry but I'm unclear what your position is here. Presumably most spells, if they work, would have observable effects. So does this mean that they are worth investigating despite the fact that their existence would contradict our ideas on how reality operates?
Despite the fact that Wiccan Spells would violate what we know about science, they are still worth investigating (I think that would be at least one reason the JREF was established).

I doubt any of these spells would turn up positive results.

Have they been investigated?

Ever read Randi's commentary? Yes, they've been investigated.

If so what were the results?

I dont have a link as I'm not too terribly interested, but none of the results have been positive (not even a smidgen of "thats peculiar").

Of course, if you care to have your own self-verification, it wont hurt you at all if you attempt a few of these spells (unless they call for expensive or rare items... or your time is extremely valuable).

[espritch]

I'm sorry but I'm unclear what your position is here. Presumably most spells, if they work, would have observable effects. So does this mean that they are worth investigating despite the fact that their existence would contradict our ideas on how reality operates? Have they been investigated? If so what were the results?

My basic position can be summed up in two words: prove it. If someone told me that they have magic power, my first response would be, "So show me the magic.” If they then did a spell and it actually produced some observable effect, I would want to look into the matter a little closer. Of course my initial position would be that it’s a trick and the goal would be to determine how it was done. If I couldn’t figure it out, I would probably want to refer them to Randi or someone more qualified. If they stumped them, and were able to perform the spell consistently under proper controlled conditions, then I might have to rethink my initial position and concede that there was something going on here beyond my previous experience. In the end, it's the evidence that counts, not my ideas of how reality operates.

I am currently unaware of any such convincing demonstration of magical powers having been made. But then, it’s not something I’ve spent much time investigating since I’ve never had anyone actually tell me that they have magic powers.

[Goshawk]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I disagree. Sure the "witch" angle is a bit unusual, but there's a question of ideological historical prestige in believing in Jesus Christ. You can make up your own Jesus as needed.

How is this significantly different from the gay bishop, or any of various odd sects? Only in being individualistic.
If you call yourself a follower of Jesus, then you should uphold His precepts. The Bible condemns witchcraft because God wants us to depend on Him for help, rather than on spells and potions and tarot decks.

The difference between including witchcraft in Christianity, and including gay bishops--or snake handling, or going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday, or polygamy, or any other "individualistic" things--in Christianity is that none of those things come between the Christian and God. Whether or not a particular Christian sect allows gay bishops doesn't affect the fact that when a member of that sect wants supernatural help, he looks to God, not to a tarot deck or a potions recipe.

[TechMage]

Interesting Ian: Why are you saying it is illogical? This seems to imply there is something inherently incoherent about expecting something like spells to actually work. Was this your intention? If so could you elaborate?


From what I have read on magic and withcraft it is believed to work on the idea that humans and everything else in the universe are connected by some hidden (occult) force. Their are many different names for this occult power, one name I can think of right now is mana. The medieval idea of the macrocosom and microcosom shows how humans are a micro version of the universe and what they will can affect the universe and vice versa. This comes from the idea that humans were created in the creator God or the creator god's image, and are literately minature gods, but lack the one thing that defines a god, immortality. There is a popular verse among magicians, witches, etc, that goes "As above, so below." and the opposite of that is true as well, "As below, so above." Magic is based of the idea that like affects like. So if you got a strand of your enemies hair and cursed it, he would be cursed as well. Or if you made a wax figure of your enemy and destroyed it, he would be destroyed as well. The same techniques could be used to heal or even ressurect a person as well.

The problem I have with this idea, is that there is no proof that A. humans are minature versions of the universe, B. there is such a thing as a hidden force that can be programmed by an individual through rituals and spells, and can affect another after it has been programmed to do so, C. even if such a force exists, it can be "programmed" by using pieces of the intended target, or programmed in some other way involving just the spellcaster's will to make it happen.


Also, if magic spells worked, then why in the hell are we bothering with science and technology at all, because if reality can be manipulated to our wills alone, the laws and properties of everything in the universe can be altered and changed to our wills and so are pointless to investigate?

Why spend so much money researching cures for diseases and disabilities, when we could just will that they do not exist or affect us, and then noone would be sick anymore?

Or why spend so much money, time, and effort on building spacecrafts, when we could just will humanity to be uneffected by the dangers of space, or how about just change the nature of space, radiation, gravity, etc itself?

Hell, if magic is real why are we bowing down to these preset forces and laws of the universe and trying to make technology to take advantage of them or get around them, when we could just make reality appear and operate to our liking?


Now, do you understand why I have a hard time believing in this stuff?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Despite the fact that Wiccan Spells would violate what we know about science...


Yeah but that's Wiccan spells. Not the real thing. Hold still now.

<font size=+3>ZAP!</font>

Feel any different? No? Aw shucks!

[Dancing David]

Not to offend Mecrutio:

Us humans have the ability to partly create the world that we view and participate in and while to an objectivist: There is no effect of magic spells, is an obvious statement.

There are us others, I believe that the efficacy of 'magic' is to generate and create potentials within one's self. And so while it doesn't make much sense to summon the spirits of the dead (and it is nonsensical), if it makes you feel better or a more effective person, then well more power to you!.

(As an aside, a true magician would never summon the spirits of the dead because it is an abrogation of the ultimate human power, life and self determination. It also usualy is very dangerous and leads to obsession or 'posession'.)

The problem is the one with most forms of spirituality, they don't keep accurate records of thier experiments and beliefs, so they remember the one time out of five hundred that the effect matched the spell and ignore the other four hundred and ninety nine.

The second problem is the one of utility, while the realm of magic is very useful for creating internal changes, it is not as effective as a boat for crossing a river.

On christian witches: as a neo pagan I find it really odd, because they are very common. And basicaly they are just catholics looking to return to the pre reformation church.

[ImpyTimpy]

Originally posted by TechMage



From what I have read on magic and withcraft it is believed to work on the idea that humans and everything else in the universe are connected by some hidden (occult) force. Their are many different names for this occult power, one name I can think of right now is mana.


Were they star wars sites? :p Honestly, I've been around believers and there's not one single set belief as to what is what. None of them seem to agree on anything.


The medieval idea of the macrocosom and microcosom shows how humans are a micro version of the universe and what they will can affect the universe and vice versa. This comes from the idea that humans were created in the creator God or the creator god's image, and are literately minature gods, but lack the one thing that defines a god, immortality. There is a popular verse among magicians, witches, etc, that goes "As above, so below." and the opposite of that is true as well, "As below, so above."

That sounds like some wicca mumbo jumbo.. There's so many "popular" phrases in the believer world that if we were to quote all of them we'd have a huge book.

Magic is based of the idea that like affects like. So if you got a strand of your enemies hair and cursed it, he would be cursed as well.

That sounds like another believer idea. There are also:

magic works by contacting higher beings etc

magic works by exercising your will

magic works by altering the energy around you

blah blah.. list goes on

Or if you made a wax figure of your enemy and destroyed it, he would be destroyed as well. The same techniques could be used to heal or even ressurect a person as well.

The problem I have with this idea, is that there is no proof that A. humans are minature versions of the universe, B. there is such a thing as a hidden force that can be programmed by an individual through rituals and spells, and can affect another after it has been programmed to do so, C. even if such a force exists, it can be "programmed" by using pieces of the intended target, or programmed in some other way involving just the spellcaster's will to make it happen.

Like I said, this seems to be the "star wars" idea you have there. I've seen a few believers stick to that but they're pretty fringe. If you think that's bad though, check out people who think we're inside "the matrix".. Now that's insane.


Also, if magic spells worked, then why in the hell are we bothering with science and technology at all, because if reality can be manipulated to our wills alone, the laws and properties of everything in the universe can be altered and changed to our wills and so are pointless to investigate?

Why spend so much money researching cures for diseases and disabilities, when we could just will that they do not exist or affect us, and then noone would be sick anymore?

Or why spend so much money, time, and effort on building spacecrafts, when we could just will humanity to be uneffected by the dangers of space, or how about just change the nature of space, radiation, gravity, etc itself?

Hell, if magic is real why are we bowing down to these preset forces and laws of the universe and trying to make technology to take advantage of them or get around them, when we could just make reality appear and operate to our liking?


Now, do you understand why I have a hard time believing in this stuff?
Because the goddess said so?

:p

[Keneke]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy

That sounds like some wicca mumbo jumbo.. There's so many "popular" phrases in the believer world that if we were to quote all of them we'd have a huge book.


As big as the Book of Proverbs? Perhaps as big as the collection of stories known as the Bible? It sure seems like quantity IS quality in religion, as far as words go.

[ImpyTimpy]

Originally posted by Keneke


As big as the Book of Proverbs? Perhaps as big as the collection of stories known as the Bible? It sure seems like quantity IS quality in religion, as far as words go.

The more you can come up with the better it sounds. Let's face it, nobody is going to be impressed by a few words strung together, but throw a book with supposed answers to all your life's problems and people are bound to be impressed. Throw in a few things to make people scared and you're onto a winner. That's why the get rich quick manuals are selling so well - they're filled with b.s. but they sure promise great rewards. Bible - same thing, filled with utmost crap but it sure promises big rewards at the end :)

[jj]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Why are you saying it is illogical? This seems to imply there is something inherently incoherent about expecting something like spells to actually work. Was this your intention? If so could you elaborate?

Trolling again?

Provide some evidence, some good, testable, verifiable, repeatable evidence, and then we can talk.

[Undodog]

check out people who think we're inside "the matrix".. Now that's insane.

That reminds me. When my girlfriend lived in Jersey (UK) some men that dressed like the cast of The Matrix confronted her. They were/are setting up a house where they and their fellow Matrix fans would live their lives according to The Matrix.
COUGHcultCOUGH!!!
A week later she saw one of them sat on a bench in the town. He saw her and immediately got out his mobile and pretended to talk into it. She looked away for a second. Looked back..and he had vanished! Taken out of the virtual illusion in which we live, perhaps? Well, maybe not, as the cyber-miracle was ruined when she looked over the road and saw him running away.

I expect they have a website somewhere.

[Keneke]

Wow, that...that's amazing. Amazingly laughable. They're not even psychics with a good skill like cold-reading to exploit, they're just lost in a movie. That totally blew me away. Must stop laughing, people in hallway will hear me....

[Schizobunny]

You shouldn't get depressed because of stuff like that, because it is everywhere. If you get depressed over stuff like that you will be depressed your entire life. Instead feel happy that you are not as much of an idiot as they are.