Britain the most violent country in western Europe

[Richard G]

Britain has the worst record in western Europe for killings, violence and burglary and its citizens face one of the highest risks in the industrialised world of becoming victims of crime, a study has shown.

British gun control success: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F10%2F25%2Fncrim25. xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=50048

[geni]

The article mentions that Britain has fewer police officers per head that other countries don't you think this migh have an effect. Also you must rember that Britian is more urbanised than the contries that you are comparing it to so that increase the problems. Also can you show where guns have anything to do with these figurs?

[Jon_in_london]

WE DONT WANT YOUR FRIGGING GUNS SO JUST PISS OFF ALREADY!!!!

[Chaos]

Richard G

While I do not know the exact gun control legislation of either Britain or Germany, I suppose both are roughly comparable, at least in so far as they are about equally strict.

The article you linked to showed that Germany had less crimes per 1,000 inhabitants (ca. 80/1000, while Britain had 100/1000).


Violent crimes total:
Germany - 2.35/1000
Britain - 10.875/1000

Domestic burglary:
Germany - 1.66/1000
Britain - 7.83/1000

Robbery:
Germany - 0.71/1000
Britain - 2.11/1000

(Assuming the German population is 80 million and the British population is 60 million)

Since gun laws are roughly comparable, and crime numbers differ drastically, there must be some other reason for this difference.

And look for yourself: the article mentions one reason: Britain has much fewer police per capita.

But I guess you didn´t notice it because it didn´t fit in with your beliefs.

[Malachi151]

Umm.. and also the German economy is better, and German society is more structured (?not sure that is the right word?).

Not to mention that Germany is already at a disadvantage from being close to the high crime Eastern countries, who also contribute to crime in Germany.

Just face it, Germany is better than Englad :p hehe

[Chaos]

Stop the flattery, Malachi, you don´t have to convince me to move to Germany. I already live there, remember? :D

The German economy is better? No. Compared with the rest of the European Union, we are lagging behind economically. Germany has recently been called the "sick man in Europe"

The crime from eastern european countries is more the non-violent type, for example car theft, smuggling, drug trafficking.

To get back on topic, it would be very interesting to see how many of the crimes mentioned in that report the USA with its lax gun laws, relatively violent police (compared to Germany) and tough sentencing has.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


WE DONT WANT YOUR FRIGGING GUNS SO JUST PISS OFF ALREADY!!!!




You sure?

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Malachi151

Just face it, Germany is better than England :p hehe

(Whistles theme from "The Great Escape")

:p

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Chaos
Stop the flattery, Malachi, you don´t have to convince me to move to Germany. I already live there, remember? :D

The German economy is better? No. Compared with the rest of the European Union, we are lagging behind economically. Germany has recently been called the "sick man in Europe"

The crime from eastern european countries is more the non-violent type, for example car theft, smuggling, drug trafficking.

To get back on topic, it would be very interesting to see how many of the crimes mentioned in that report the USA with its lax gun laws, relatively violent police (compared to Germany) and tough sentencing has.

Getting back off topic. For a long time Germany was dominating the European economy. What is the story now? Is it because of lack of foreign investment do you think? Its not as though there is no foreign investnment by Germany, but I know that there is much more by Britain of course. Now that "real" empires are no longer practical, financial empires are where its at,and Britian of course has stayed on their old game.

Ahh, poor Germany, always lagging behind the other Imperialists. ;)

I have only been to Germany once, but I really liked it, and would not mind moving there if I only knew how to get a job there, and I don't think they are to favorable to immigrants at this time, etc.

[Dragon]

Richard,

There is a BIG problem comparing statistics from country to country like this because of different justice systems and recording standards - the full report (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb1203.pdf)(pdf doc) from which that short piece in The Telegraph was taken (spun?) bears some examination.

The homicide figures are interesting (my bold)- Since the definition of homicide is similar in
most countries, absolute comparisons of
rates are possible. For the period 1999 to
2001, the average rate (the number of
homicides per 100,000 population) was 1.6 in
the EU with the highest rates in Finland (2.9),
Northern Ireland (2.7) and Scotland (2.2). For
the other countries, the highest rates were
found in Russia (22.1), Estonia (10.6),
Lithuania (10.6) and the USA (5.6).
and San Francisco CA (8.1).

The figure for England and Wales is 1.61, just above the EU average at 1.59.
The figure for London is 2.6 per 100,000

Always go to the source, eh?

[Shaun from Scotland]

Are you not even beginning to get remotely tired having your ass kicked repeatedly on this subject dimwit?

[Richard G]

I am freely, and legaly armed. You are not. I would hardly consider myself a dimwit in your position.

[sorgoth]

If you're threatening him, you're only proving his point.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Richard G
I am freely, and legaly armed. You are not. I would hardly consider myself a dimwit in your position.

What a doofus.....

Richard, I don't care how big your gun is and I doubt if anyone else on this forum does either.....

[Wolverine]

*takes deep breath*

:teacher:

Bah, nevermind.

:hit:

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Richard G
I am freely, and legaly armed. You are not. I would hardly consider myself a dimwit in your position.

If you were in Shaun's position, you would hardly consider yourself a dimwit??

Shouldn't you have said "You would hardly consider yourself a dimwit in my position"?

[Jim Lennox]

I'd like to know if Richard G has been the victim, or knows anyone who has been the victim of a violent crime?

In fact any americans got any violent crime stories?

I haven't.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Richard G
I am freely, and legaly armed. You are not. I would hardly consider myself a dimwit in your position.

Whether I am armed or not, the fact remains the odds on me being murdered last year by these gun weilding homicidal maniacs i am apparantely at the mercy of, was approximately 1.7 million to one.

And judging by your macho, posturing fantasies, I really am glad that people like you aren't armed in the UK.

Now, run along and cuddle your gun if it makes you feel like a man........

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Just face it, Germany is better than Englad :p hehe

Two world wars and a world cup too, doo-dah doo-dah.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by Richard G
I am freely, and legaly armed. You are not. I would hardly consider myself a dimwit in your position.

Can you explain what you mean by this, Richard? Are you saying you'd shoot him for calling you a dimwit?

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox
I'd like to know if Richard G has been the victim, or knows anyone who has been the victim of a violent crime?

In fact any americans got any violent crime stories?

I haven't.

I have a few. Actually a few hundred at this point.

Anecdotes are largely useless. All I can say about guns is that 1) drunks wind up in prison because of them and 2) Most people that break into houses want to steal them because they have more fence value than about anything else.

One silly case:

Guy is in a bar (pub). Guy is really drunk. Guy all of a sudden starts screaming that someone stole his gun. He accuses 5 or six people, screaming in a drunken rage. He then realizes he was sitting on the gun the whole time.

People start laughing at him. He feels hurt, so he starts pointing it at people, screaming "so you think it's funny now, huh?" and so on. People start diving for cover.

He explains later it is the anti-depressants he takes that must have reacted with the alcohol, you see, so it isn't really his fault. I get him a deal where he pleads to "brandishing" and gets 30 days suspended and a fine.

Yep, no jail time. Just probation.

Thankfully his finger didn't slip, or he wasn't too far gone to just start shooting in a drunken rage. I've seen similar stories with less happy endings.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Richard G
I am freely, and legaly armed. You are not. I would hardly consider myself a dimwit in your position.

I would. I consider you a crazed lunatic who is afraid of monsters under the bed. Someone who deep down inside wants to be attacked just so you can kill "one of those people" that you blame for all your life's failures.

I'm sure there are responsible gun owners, those that don't make veiled armed threats all the time. Just not you. You can't even control yourself on a message board.

I also consider you to be someone who needs a security banket. Do you suck your thumb when you caress your guns? I'm betting you get excited when you think about them, all sleek and deadly, and all those criminals you can shoot.

In fact, I'm betting you are thinking that if you were here in person I wouldn't say these things because I'd fear you. You could show your little toy and the fact that you lack wit and intelligence wouldn't matter anymore, because you will have the power of life and death over me.

Exited yet? Both hands on the keyboard please....

[Ed]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


WE DONT WANT YOUR FRIGGING GUNS SO JUST PISS OFF ALREADY!!!!


Just one?

[Jim Lennox]

I have a few. Actually a few hundred at this point.

Just wondering why some americans appear so scared of being assaulted by a stranger.

The only violent crime I get to know about is via media. Perhaps this is the same in the US?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox


Just wondering why some americans appear so scared of being assaulted by a stranger.

The only violent crime I get to know about is via media. Perhaps this is the same in the US?
Maybe you should move to Brixton if you want to know the fear first hand, instead of just reading about it. But you won't, becase that's a poor persons problem, why should you care?

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by WildCat
Maybe you should move to Brixton if you want to know the fear first hand, instead of just reading about it. But you won't, becase that's a poor persons problem, why should you care?

Yeah, if everyone in Brixton had a gun there'd be no fear or violence, right? It worked for Compton...

[Jim Lennox]

Back when I was poor I used to live in a place called Streatham which is not far from Brixton and a centre of Yardie violence in London. Almost every day I would see a new big yellow sign saying 'police incident' asking for witnesses.

I never felt like I was in danger, nor did I see any violence first hand.

But you won't, becase that's a poor persons problem, why should you care?


Not withstanding your impressive mind reading skills, are you sugesting that violent crime is beyond a person above a certain salary?

[Tmy]

The Brits are just more violent than the other Eruos. Post WW2 the other EU countries started raising peacenick pansies while the Brits continued with their holligan ways.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Dragon
Richard,

There is a BIG problem comparing statistics from country to country like this because of different justice systems and recording standards - the full report (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb1203.pdf)(pdf doc) from which that short piece in The Telegraph was taken (spun?) bears some examination.

The homicide figures are interesting (my bold)-
The figure for England and Wales is 1.61, just above the EU average at 1.59.
The figure for London is 2.6 per 100,000

Always go to the source, eh?

I was unable to access the source as the connection kept timing out.

I am constantly puzzled by the contrast between the average to low rate of homicides in the UK and the high violent crime/robbery/burglary rates. It would seem logical to suppose that at the very least homicide and violent crime figures should be extremely closely related as the difference between a violent assault and a homicide is often happenstance rather than intent. To a lesser degree the same argument can be made for other serious crimes. As homicide victims are easy to count and usually brought to the attention of the authorities, which is certainly not the case for all other crimes, I wonder how many of these disparities are purely statistical artefacts arising out of different recording methods? This can make a huge difference to the figures.

Does anyone know of cross country crime comparisons based on surveys such as the British Crime Survey? I know the U.S. has such a survey (NCS isn't it?) and assume others do as well.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Tmy
The Brits are just more violent than the other Eruos. Post WW2 the other EU countries started raising peacenick pansies while the Brits continued with their holligan ways.

Well we're certainly more prone to binge drinking and that has a strong relationship to crime.

It's one of the reasons why we don't want a lot of guns around of course. It would be very awkward for international relations if a couple of boatloads of pissed and tooled up Millwall supporters invaded France for example. We'd have to put the taxes up to rebuild it.:D

[epepke]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox


Just wondering why some americans appear so scared of being assaulted by a stranger.

The only violent crime I get to know about is via media. Perhaps this is the same in the US?

Well, I was assaulted by a stranger in a bar about eight years ago. It wasn't that big a deal--no injuries, though I did lose a contact lens in the incident.

But no; it isn't terribly significant outside the media, and I've walked through SouthCentral LA since then.

I have seen more fistfights in London than I have ever seen in the U.S., and I only spend 8% or less of the year in London, and only when I can afford it.

[Skeptic]

the USA (5.6). and San Francisco CA (8.1).

Just as I always suspected: Frisco isn't part of the USA...

[Skeptic]

The figure for England and Wales is 1.61, just above the EU average at 1.59.

This is a typical newspaper/advertisement technique.

When you have a bunch of figures with no significant difference between them, don't talk about which countries (or brands of ceral, or cigarettes) are WORSE or BETTER in murder rate (or nutritions, or damage to your health), because that requires saying by how much.

Instead, talk about which country is WORST in murder rate, which cereal is BEST in nutrition, which cigarette BEST for your health. There has to be (at least) one worst and best of ANYTHING, regardless of the fact that the differences are insignificant.

So even if (as in this case), the murder rate is just about the same (low) in all EU countries, the nutrition just about the same in all cerals, and the health damage just about the same (really bad) with all cigarettes, you've still got your "Worst murder rate in Europe!" headline, or your "Most Nutritious Cereal!" or "Healthiest Cigarette!" advertisement campaign...