Guy Fawkes day! Let's get bombed!

[Tricky]

Hey you Brits out there, does this day mean anything to you? Do you all gather to watch "V for Vendetta"? Does it have any political implications at all? Is it a drinking occasion?

[Professor Yaffle]

I think it has pretty much lost any political/religious links. Catholics seem to celebrate it as much as Protestants.

Tonight we (me hubby and the kids) a few little fireworks and sparklers and on saturday we will go to the organised bonfire/firework display, organised by our local community centre.

As for a drinking occasion, it depends - if we were having more fireworks ourselves we would probably have a few friends and family round and a few drinks. A friend of ours birthday is the 5th, so they often have a firework party to celebrate, where copious alcohol is drunk (though she made sure the people setting off the fireworks were still sober...). Unfortunately we don't live near them anymore.

[Darat]

Hey you Brits out there, does this day mean anything to you? Do you all gather to watch "V for Vendetta"? Does it have any political implications at all? Is it a drinking occasion?

Probably the only place it has any political resonance at all these days is in Lewes where they tend to burn a guy that is meant to be the Pope and they usually throw on one of the current PM and a few other high profile hate-figures.

In my experience most of us call it "Bonfire night" and it is sadly a dying tradition, when I was a kid it was still a very popular event with most families having their own bonfire and fireworks or a small community one.

[Darat]

Typing the above just made me realise that I can't remember the last time I saw kids with a guy asking "penny for the guy".

[Cuddles]

As the little bird says, it really means nothing at all. For most people it's not even much of an excuse for a party. Most places will have at least one organised fireworks display, usually consisting of everyone huddled together under umbrellas watching some poor guy fail to light anything with a long stick, and some people will have parties, but other than that, nothing happens. Certainly nothing with any political or religious overtones. In fact, a lot of this won't even happen on the right day.

Since it's so close to Halloween, people generally just pick a time when it's convenient for themselves, so there's a period of a couple of weeks where you'll have some fireworks every night, but not necessarily one day that stands out. For example, most people I know had their parties last weekend, and my old university has its display tomorrow.

[Professor Yaffle]

Typing the above just made me realise that I can't remember the last time I saw kids with a guy asking "penny for the guy".

Thats true, I haven't seen little kids hauling around a stuffed figure in a wheelbarrow for years. That's really sad.

[ImaginalDisc]

Probably the only place it has any political resonance at all these days is in Lewes where they tend to burn a guy that is meant to be the Pope and they usually throw on one of the current PM and a few other high profile hate-figures.

In my experience most of us call it "Bonfire night" and it is sadly a dying tradition, when I was a kid it was still a very popular event with most families having their own bonfire and fireworks or a small community one.

You sure you guys aren't suffering from "Folksy traditional holiday exhaustion" over there? :D Hoy can such a fine holiday see decreased celebration? Do you have some other annual excuse to burn things and set off exlosives we don't know about?

[Tricky]

You sure you guys aren't suffering from "Folksy traditional holiday exhaustion" over there? :D Hoy can such a fine holiday see decreased celebration? Do you have some other annual excuse to burn things and set off exlosives we don't know about?
Yeah, it seems a shame. After all, there aren't enough holidays devoted to terrorists. About the closest we come in the US is Independance Day, when we celebrate how a small band of "freedom fighters" overthrew the existing government.

[Rolfe]

We had a village bonfire and fireworks on Saturday evening. The weather was fine, and a fine time was had by all. There were sparklers and toasted marshmallows as well.

The children even came round collecting for it - but they had collecting tins and no guy, and they just asked for donations for the firework night.

The bonfire was impressive, but there was no guy on it. There was no mention of Guy Fawkes at all. I rather approve of this, because it wasn't our parliament that the "guy" tried to blow up, and it's really not much of our business.

I'd say that it's a shame the old tradition is dying out in England, but having lived near Lewes and seen what goes on there, no it isn't.

Rolfe.

[Professor Yaffle]

When I was little, we always made a guy and had a bonfire and sparklers in the back garden. And potatoes cooked in the ashes. Mmmmmmmm.

[Francesca R]

I get to see plenty of fireworks by going out onto my roof terrace, which looks in this direction (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2157/2415109055_ac6c92a485.jpg?v=0), and is slight fun if it isn't rainy. Usually it's better at New Year though, since that's my birthday and it's good of everyone to celebrate that.

[ImaginalDisc]

Yeah, it seems a shame. After all, there aren't enough holidays devoted to terrorists. About the closest we come in the US is Independance Day, when we celebrate how a small band of "freedom fighters" overthrew the existing government.

I think the point of Guy Fawkes day has traditionally been the cellebration of his capture and punishment, rather than exoneration of him. I read V for Vendetta, too, so I can see how you'd get the opposite impression from it.

If you want an American holiday devoted to morally questionable historical figures, Columbus Day works just fine.

Any bitterness in this post results from having learned as a child that Armistice Day didn't exist any longer (I'd read about it in a Brittish book and thought it was the most thoughful holiday.) I don't quite understand why a holiday devoted to peace should have been changed to a holiday celebrating veterans - which is not to say that veterans don't deserve to be fetted on the Fourth of July and Flag Day.

[Professor Yaffle]

My son came home from school today and told me that he learned a rhyme about the 5th of November today:

"Remember, remember, the fifth of November.
Gunpowder, treacle, and plot".

[Ivor the Engineer]

You know what's killed it? Allowing the sale of fireworks all year round for every little event in life.

It's not so much Guy Fawkes Night, rather Fireworks Month.

The importing of Halloween, which was practically non-existant when I was a child, and putting Christmas stock in the shops at the end of Septmeber probably haven't helped either.

[cwalner]

You know what's killed it? Allowing the sale of fireworks all year round for every little event in life.

It's not so much Guy Fawkes Night, rather Fireworks Month.

The importing of Halloween, which was practically non-existant when I was a child, and putting Christmas stock in the shops at the end of Septmeber probably haven't helped either.

Xmas stock up at end of Sept?! Thank you for giving me one more thing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving. At least we have a major holiday puttung the brakes on that for another two months on this side of the Atlantic.

Interestingly, somebody seems to be trying to stimulate Guy Fawkes day here as well (probably inspired by V for Vendetta). I got a blind text from some number that I don't even know what state it is in saying only
"Remember, Remeber, The Fifth of November ... "

ETA I just checked, the text came from Salt Lake City, UT. I live in Indianapolis, IN

[Francesca R]

Any bitterness in this post results from having learned as a child that Armistice Day didn't exist any longer (I'd read about it in a Brittish book and thought it was the most thoughful holiday.)
Well many Brits get two minutes of silence at 11am. I was on a bus once and the driver stopped for the two minutes as well. OK it's not quite a whole day off, but times are tough with the economy.

[ImaginalDisc]

Well many Brits get two minutes of silence at 11am. I was on a bus once and the driver stopped for the two minutes as well. OK it's not quite a whole day off, but times are tough with the economy.

In the U.S. it was changed to Veterans Day after WWII. That really makes me sad.

[geni]

Typing the above just made me realise that I can't remember the last time I saw kids with a guy asking "penny for the guy".

about 12 years.

[geni]

The bonfire was impressive, but there was no guy on it. There was no mention of Guy Fawkes at all. I rather approve of this, because it wasn't our parliament that the "guy" tried to blow up, and it's really not much of our business.

It was however your king. Couldn't you at least burn some bankers in effigy?

[Rolfe]

Why bother with the effigy part?

Rolfe.

[Cuddles]

I didn't even hear any fireworks last night.

Xmas stock up at end of Sept?! Thank you for giving me one more thing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving. At least we have a major holiday puttung the brakes on that for another two months on this side of the Atlantic.

You'd think Halloween would manage to put it off for at least a couple of weeks, but it seems most shops decide it's less effort to set up Halloween and Christmas at the same time. I'm just thankful I can do all my shopping online now so I don't have to listen to that bloody "music".

[Tricky]

Watched "V for Vendetta" tonight. Interesting movie, but pretty unbelievable scenario. However, I did notice for the first time that V said "Penny for the Guy", so I thank you folks for adding to my understanding.

[ImaginalDisc]

Watched "V for Vendetta" tonight. Interesting movie, but pretty unbelievable scenario. However, I did notice for the first time that V said "Penny for the Guy", so I thank you folks for adding to my understanding.

The comics are much better. V's more of an anarchist than a revolutionary, which leaves open the moral ambiguity of what he's doing. Plus, it has a rather different plot that isn't so obviously an attack on Bush.

[gumboot]

We still celebrate Guy Fawkes Day down here in the South Pacific. When I was a kid we used to have bonfires and burn guys and everything, but the usual PC fun-hating crowd have gradually cut chunks out of it so no more bonfires, no more guys, and legal fireworks are pretty much limited to sparklers and those annoying spinning shrieking things.

Fireworks are only legally allowed to be sold for about a week leading up to Guy Fawkes so we don't get much fireworks at other times of the year, and every year the usual suspects bleat about how little Tommy got burned last year and calling for all fireworks to be banned outright. Never mind that Fire Service call outs and accidents have been decreasing.

[geni]

The comics are much better. V's more of an anarchist than a revolutionary, which leaves open the moral ambiguity of what he's doing. Plus, it has a rather different plot that isn't so obviously an attack on Bush.

Problem is in the current climate the comic in film form could be taken for an apology for fascism.

You've got a sysmpathic character as the fascist leader. Other than Lewis Prothero and Lillimanmost of the initial set of high level fascists are portrayed as fairly decent people (obviously Creedy's apreance tilts the balance somewhat). Much of the mid and lower level are portrayed as just average people. Untill they lose fate they are also portrayed as somewhat more competent than they are in the film.

The fascists are also very clearly the only effective force standing between britian and anarchy.

And you give them what in many ways would be the ultimate bad guy for our times an anarchist terroist as their oposition.

[Damien Evans]

I think the point of Guy Fawkes day has traditionally been the cellebration of his capture and punishment, rather than exoneration of him. I read V for Vendetta, too, so I can see how you'd get the opposite impression from it.

If you want an American holiday devoted to morally questionable historical figures, Columbus Day works just fine.

Any bitterness in this post results from having learned as a child that Armistice Day didn't exist any longer (I'd read about it in a Brittish book and thought it was the most thoughful holiday.) I don't quite understand why a holiday devoted to peace should have been changed to a holiday celebrating veterans - which is not to say that veterans don't deserve to be fetted on the Fourth of July and Flag Day.

Armistace Dya is still alive and well in the commonwealth.

[Rolfe]

I haven't picked up on any change to what Armistice Day signifies. The main difference seems to me to be that it's more observed than before.

I understand (from my reading of Dorothy L. Sayers) that before 1939 the actual 11th November was almost universally observed, with the 2 minutes silence at 11am precisely. This seems to have tailed off after the second war to become Armistice Sunday, the Sunday nearest to or before (not sure which) the day itself, and observance being much more of an individual thing, generally confined to church parades and watching the Cenotaph on the BBC.

However, as I read it, the public observance of minutes of silence on working days for other tragedies - most notably 11th September - got people asking, why do we ignore the actual 11th of November itself in favour of the Sunday. About 2001 or 2002 (it seems to me) the practice of observing the silence on the day itself has returned, even if it's patchily respected.

And it hasn't struck me at all that it used to be about Peace but now it's just about Veterans. "Old Soldiers" always were a major focus, and I don't see that any different.

Just my take on it.

Rolfe.

[Cuddles]

However, as I read it, the public observance of minutes of silence on working days for other tragedies - most notably 11th September - got people asking, why do we ignore the actual 11th of November itself in favour of the Sunday. About 2001 or 2002 (it seems to me) the practice of observing the silence on the day itself has returned, even if it's patchily respected.

I haven't noticed any difference. As long as I can remember it's always been 2 minutes silence at 11 o'clock on 11/11. Nothing's changed since 2001, and I've never even heard of any minutes of silence on 11th September, although I'd assume they happen in the US.

And it hasn't struck me at all that it used to be about Peace but now it's just about Veterans. "Old Soldiers" always were a major focus, and I don't see that any different.

I agree with that. It's the main reason I pretty much ignore the whole thing. If there was an emphasis on remembering that war is a bad thing, it would be great. Instead you just get people demanding money and trying to make you feel guilty about people who had retired before I was even born.

[Francesca R]

the public observance of minutes of silence on working days for other tragedies - most notably 11th September - got people asking, why do we ignore the actual 11th of November itself in favour of the Sunday. About 2001 or 2002 (it seems to me) the practice of observing the silence on the day itself has returned, even if it's patchily respected.That may be true. However personally I remember it being observed since the 1990s when I first started working.

[Rolfe]

I haven't noticed any difference. As long as I can remember it's always been 2 minutes silence at 11 o'clock on 11/11. Nothing's changed since 2001, and I've never even heard of any minutes of silence on 11th September, although I'd assume they happen in the US.


I can't ever remember stopping at work or school or university on 11th November itself until the past few years.

I don't mean minutes of silence on 11th September itself, but that when that happened there as a call for a minute's silence on a day in the following week, which was observed very widely. Then there have been other such instances, though I can't be sure exactly which events.

My own impression was that it was after these occasions (which were all one-offs, happening shortly after the disaster in question) that the call to mark 11th November on the actual day was heard.

Rolfe.

[Cuddles]

I can't ever remember stopping at work or school or university on 11th November itself until the past few years.

I don't mean minutes of silence on 11th September itself, but that when that happened there as a call for a minute's silence on a day in the following week, which was observed very widely. Then there have been other such instances, though I can't be sure exactly which events.

My own impression was that it was after these occasions (which were all one-offs, happening shortly after the disaster in question) that the call to mark 11th November on the actual day was heard.

Rolfe.

We always had it in school, at least as far back as 20 years ago. Maybe it varies between regions, but I was always under the impression that it was pretty much the normal thing to do nationally.

[ImaginalDisc]

I haven't picked up on any change to what Armistice Day signifies. The main difference seems to me to be that it's more observed than before.

I understand (from my reading of Dorothy L. Sayers) that before 1939 the actual 11th November was almost universally observed, with the 2 minutes silence at 11am precisely. This seems to have tailed off after the second war to become Armistice Sunday, the Sunday nearest to or before (not sure which) the day itself, and observance being much more of an individual thing, generally confined to church parades and watching the Cenotaph on the BBC.

However, as I read it, the public observance of minutes of silence on working days for other tragedies - most notably 11th September - got people asking, why do we ignore the actual 11th of November itself in favour of the Sunday. About 2001 or 2002 (it seems to me) the practice of observing the silence on the day itself has returned, even if it's patchily respected.

And it hasn't struck me at all that it used to be about Peace but now it's just about Veterans. "Old Soldiers" always were a major focus, and I don't see that any different.

Just my take on it.

Rolfe.

In the U.S., it was changed into "Veterans Day" in 1953 supposedly to honor veterans of all wars rather than specifically commemorate the end of the First World War. I don't know if WWII were being slighted, but I really like the idea of a holiday specifically celebrating peace.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

One thing I've noticed is how the English always mispronounce "Guy".

[Professor Yaffle]

Went to an organised bonfire/firework display last night with the kids, and when the fireworks had fnished and most people dispersed, we lit some sparklers for the kids. The security people made us put them out! It's health and safety gone MAAAAAAD, I tell you!

[mummymonkey]

Guy Fawkes Night is no more. Killed by a combination of Health and Safety zealotry and middle class handwringing.

[brodski]

Guy Fawkes Night is no more. Killed by a combination of Health and Safety zealotry and middle class handwringing.

bugger, I'm off to the doctors then to see abbot all those loud bangs and bright flashes Ive been hearing and seeing all week. :(

[Architect]

The importing of Halloween, which was practically non-existant when I was a child.


Guising is a venerable tradition this side of the border, I'm afraid, and long predates any modern imported American traditions. And none of your begging trick and treating, you'll all be doing a turn for your prize....

[gumboot]

My Mum grew up in the UK during the 1960s and 70s and she remembered the 2 minutes of silence being observed everywhere, every year. She left the UK in the mid 1970s so it can't be a case of her memory being clouded by a recent resurgence.

[PhantomWolf]

Of course some of us light the fireworks and dream that one day we too might get the chances that Guy Fawkes had....

[Rolfe]

A historian interviewed on the radio this morning said that observance of the two minutes silence on the actual day and in public had fallen in to disuse, and was revived in 1995. He said something about this being related to an anniversary of D-day. The interview was about how, surprisingly, observance of Remembrance Day and the silence have been increasing rather than decreading in recent years.

He didn't say anything about why or when observance had fallen off (obviously it didn't die out as we have people in this thread telling us they were aware of observence on the day itself all along), but Sayers specifically stated that after the "betrayal" of the Second World War, the singleminded commemoration of the "war to end all wars" was never the same again. (This was in a novel where the villain used the two minutes silence to move the body, secure in the knowledge that he would not be disturbed.)

To me, the day always embraced both wars, because both sets of names were on the War Memorial. Later conflicts were sort of semi-detached, not least because these have not affected every town and village in that way, and there's nothing on the local memorials to mark them.

I'm afraid I spent 11.00 to 11.02 in the bank conducting business this morning. Nobody seemed to be taking any notice of the time. Unlike that day in September 2001, when there was a set time to commemorate the Twin Towers victims. I remember we put our phones on the answering machine, and although the phone did ring, the message left was, "Oh it's the two minutes silence, I'm really sorry, I forgot." But that was only about a week after the incident.

Changing the subject, the kids round here do usually manage to "do a turn" at Hallowe'en, I think because the parents who escort them insist. It's nothing very elaborate or impressive though.

Rolfe.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Guising is a venerable tradition this side of the border, I'm afraid, and long predates any modern imported American traditions. And none of your begging trick and treating, you'll all be doing a turn for your prize....

That does it then. I demand independence from Scotland!

You may take our taxes, but you will never take our sparklers!

[Ysidro]

Xmas stock up at end of Sept?! Thank you for giving me one more thing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving. At least we have a major holiday puttung the brakes on that for another two months on this side of the Atlantic.


Thanksgiving does that? Even Halloween doesn't put the brakes on Christmas advertising any longer!

Personally, I wish we had something like "Timothy McVeigh Day" over here. We need more excuses to legally blow stuff up.

[Rolfe]

That does it then. I demand independence from Scotland!

You may take our taxes, but you will never take our sparklers!


Did you mean to quote Professor Yaffle?

They were handing out sparklers by the half-dozen at our village firework party. My friend commented rather nervously on the number of knee-high sparklers running around. I saw one chap trying to persuade his three-year-old to hold one, but the kid was a bit wary of it.

Rolfe.

[Cuddles]

Did you mean to quote Professor Yaffle?

They were handing out sparklers by the half-dozen at our village firework party. My friend commented rather nervously on the number of knee-high sparklers running around. I saw one chap trying to persuade his three-year-old to hold one, but the kid was a bit wary of it.

Rolfe.

A couple of years ago one of my parents' friends ended up in hospital after a child running around with a sparkler managed to stick said sparkler in a rather inappropriate place. And no, this isn't one of those "friend of a friend" things, I was actually there and saw it happen. I'm sure it was rather painful and really shouldn't be funny, but be honest, how many people could genuinely avoid laughing at that?