When are Germans planning on making any historic inroads regarding their Nationalism?

[Cicero]

Oliver thought this would be a good topic for a thread. If Obama is considered a giant leap forward for American race relations, when will Germans achieve a similar milestone in their broadening of what it means to be a real German?

***.."According to the foreigners law that went into effect in mid-1993, foreigners living in Germany for fifteen years may become German citizens if they have no criminal record and renounce their original citizenship. Young foreigners who have resided eight years in Germany may become citizens if they have attended German schools for six years and apply for citizenship between the ages of sixteen and twenty-three. Usually, however, German citizenship depends not on where one is born (ius solis) but on the nationality of the father or, since 1974, on the mother (ius sanguinis). Thus, to many, German citizenship depends on being born German and cannot rightfully be acquired through a legal process. This notion makes it practically impossible for naturalized citizens or their children to be considered German. Some reformers advocate eliminating the concept of German blood in the 1913 law regulating citizenship, but the issue is an emotional one, and such a change has little popular support."..***

http://www.germanculture.com.ua/libr...migration1.htm

[Herzblut]

Oliver thought this would be a good topic for a thread. If Obama is considered a giant leap forward for American race relations, when will Germans achieve a similar milestone in their broadening of what it means to be a real German?

***.."According to the foreigners law that went into effect in mid-1993, foreigners living in Germany for fifteen years may become German citizens if they have no criminal record and renounce their original citizenship.
Maybe. But the law in effect is from 2005 upwards and has little to nothing in common with what you cited.

The allegation of German nationalism is preposterous.

[Cicero]

Maybe. But the law in effect is from 2005 upwards and has little to nothing in common with what you cited.

The allegation of German nationalism is preposterous.

Then how do you explain:

***..Thus, to many, German citizenship depends on being born German and cannot rightfully be acquired through a legal process. This notion makes it practically impossible for naturalized citizens or their children to be considered German."..***.

How come the U.S. doesn't have the same German law that requires all entrants to pass a language fluency exam before taking up residency?

It sure seems that being considered a German in Germany is not extended to immigrants, no matter how many bureaucratic hoops they jump through.

***.."Most Germans do not see their country as a land of immigration like the United States or Canada, and no demographic or social issue has generated greater controversy than the presence of foreigners in the Federal Republic. In an opinion poll taken in 1982, two-thirds of West Germans said that there were too many foreigners in Germany, and one-half thought that foreigners should be sent back to their countries of origin. In 1992 another poll found that the "foreigner problem" ranked as the most serious issue for western Germans and was third in importance for eastern Germans."..***

So Germans have undergone a metamorphosis in the last decade?

[Herzblut]

Then how do you explain:

***..Thus, to many, German citizenship depends on being born German and cannot rightfully be acquired through a legal process. This notion makes it practically impossible for naturalized citizens or their children to be considered German."..***.

Well, the author might be uninformed or have an anti-German attitude. I don't know. German citizenship can be acquired through a legal process. Living 7-8 years in Germany gives foreigners an undeniable legal title for German citizenship, given some self-evident criteria like language knowledge. For foreigners married to a German, the term is only 3 years.
The child of a German parent is German by law, independent from place of birth. The child of two foreigners born in Germany is German by law, given one of the parents has been living in Germany for 8 years.


How come the U.S. doesn't have the same German law that requires all entrants to pass a language fluency exam before taking up residency?

I don't know why the US is so behind. For me, citizenship naturally requires language knowledge.


It sure seems that being considered a German in Germany is not extended to immigrants, no matter how many bureaucratic hoops they jump through.

No, it doesn't. My wife is Cuban. Next year she will have a German passport.

[Praktik]

Herzblut - look in the top right of your browser and reply to my private message I sent you over a week ago!

[WildCat]

I don't know why the US is so behind. For me, citizenship naturally requires language knowledge.
It's required for citizenship, not for residency.

[Eskarina]

Then how do you explain:

***..Thus, to many, German citizenship depends on being born German and cannot rightfully be acquired through a legal process. This notion makes it practically impossible for naturalized citizens or their children to be considered German."..***.

How come the U.S. doesn't have the same German law that requires all entrants to pass a language fluency exam before taking up residency?

That article, which BTW, I could not find through your link, is outdated, as Herzblut already stated.

Here are two more up-to-date ones that will probably disabuse you of some of your ill-gotten notions:

http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/london/en/06/other__legal__matters/Reform__Germanys__citizenship__seite.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

I think the requirements to become a German citizen are not that much more demanding than the ones in the USA, wouldn't you agree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law)?


It sure seems that being considered a German in Germany is not extended to immigrants, no matter how many bureaucratic hoops they jump through.

***.."Most Germans do not see their country as a land of immigration like the United States or Canada, and no demographic or social issue has generated greater controversy than the presence of foreigners in the Federal Republic. In an opinion poll taken in 1982, two-thirds of West Germans said that there were too many foreigners in Germany, and one-half thought that foreigners should be sent back to their countries of origin. In 1992 another poll found that the "foreigner problem" ranked as the most serious issue for western Germans and was third in importance for eastern Germans."..***

So Germans have undergone a metamorphosis in the last decade?

Again, direct link, please, so I can take a look at the footnotes and the bibliography!

Polls taken in 1982 and 1992? Please, that would be like me saying the US is never going to elect an African-American president during my life-time (and I've got another 40 years or so ahead of me, statistically at least.)

Oh, and a valid source would be nice as well, because I've never heard of Eric Solsten before. And being # 2,989,059 on the Amazon ranks is not really convincing.

[Herzblut]

It's required for citizenship, not for residency.
That's what I would have thought. It's the same as in Germany.

[Eskarina]

It's required for citizenship, not for residency.


Herzblut beat me to it, but:

The same goes for Germany, unless you are on welfare benefits. In which case you'll probably be not so nicely asked to take a German language course (for free, in most cases) that will not much enhance your chances to get a new job, but certainly will get your sorry *** off of the unemployment statistics.

[Cicero]

It does seem that Germany's historical past still haunts the present.

According to the most recent numbers, 797 anti-Semitic crimes were committed in Germany between January and September 2008, up significantly from 716 similar crimes committed during the same period last year.

The CDU/CSU can't seem to reconcile their differences with The Left Party, and vice versa, to sign the same anti-Semitism declaration.

"It's undisputed that hidden anti-Semitism was part of the national interests of the GDR (former East Germany)," said parliamentarian Hans-Peter Uhl from the CSU. Uhl also accused the Left party of tolerating isolated anti-Semitic tendencies, which he said were evident in the party's policy toward Israel.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3766709,00.html

[CapelDodger]

Most Germans do not see their country as a land of immigration like the United States or Canada

Germany isn't a land of immigration like the US or Canada or Australia or South Africa. The latter are entirely lands of immigration created in the recent past. Germany is a land in East-Central Europe with a very long history. A country called Germany has only existed since 1871 (and has been pretty fluid since), and was crafted from established societies by a gifted sociopath (Bismarck) who used nationalism as a tool. His malignant influence (which spread far beyond Central Europe, and long beyond his time) has mostly faded away.

The nations of Western Europe finished their mass immigration experience with the Magyars (more or less). The post-WW2, post-Imperial experience of mass immigration is new. You can't expect adjustment overnight. The French are finding it harder than the Germans, on recent evidence.

Polls from '82 and '92, outdated laws from '93 - why nothing about now?

'93 was right in the middle of reunification. Not applicable as typical.

[Gurdur]

It does seem that Germany's historical past still haunts the present. [B]"It's undisputed that hidden anti-Semitism was part of the national interests of the GDR (former East Germany)," said parliamentarian Hans-Peter Uhl from the CSU.

Whooopidooo, Cicero, you just discovered that racism is still present in a segment of the East German population, a population still muchly in the grip of attitudes formed under the Soviet occupation and the regime collapse in 1989, and the re-unification of Germany.

And you just discovered the Left Party. Well, whooopidooo. Now to stress the bleedingly obvious: East Germany does not equal Germany.
D'oh.

I'm astounded that you, Cicero, who was vociferously so much against Obama before, should so suddenly become interested in fighting racism; must be quite a change of heart on your part. How did you feel before about Obama's visit to Berlin, BTW? Were you OK with that? Were you as much in favour of Obama and his Berlin visit as so many Germans were?

[CapelDodger]

It does seem that Germany's historical past still haunts the present.

According to the most recent numbers, 797 anti-Semitic crimes were committed in Germany between January and September 2008, up significantly from 716 similar crimes committed during the same period last year.

2008 is the present, not the historical past. 797 against 716 is a bit desperate (is this supposed to represent a trend?). And, if you have them to hand, what are the figures for Poland?

The CDU/CSU can't seem to reconcile their differences with The Left Party, and vice versa, to sign the same anti-Semitism declaration.

From your link :
"Though all parties agreed on the content of the document, Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Party (CDU), together with its Bavarian sister party the Christian Social Union (CSU), refused to sign the same paper as the hard-line socialist Left party.

As a result, two identical declarations were passed -- one by the Left party and the other by the four remaining parties represented in the Bundestag. The Left Party is made up of former disaffected Social Democrats and former East German communists."


Identical declaration, but two pieces of paper because the other parties have a gag reflex to signing anything alongside the Left Party.

[quote]"It's undisputed that hidden anti-Semitism was part of the national interests of the GDR (former East Germany)," said parliamentarian Hans-Peter Uhl from the CSU. Uhl also accused the Left party of tolerating isolated anti-Semitic tendencies, which he said were evident in the party's policy toward Israel.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3766709,00.html

Which goes some way to explaining the gag reflex. The Left Party is the dying remnant of the GDR, with no moral legitimacy and no future.

If you're looking for gut-based anti-semitism (and I get the feeling you are) you should check out Poland, not Germany.

[Gurdur]

Oliver thought this would be a good topic ....


Actually, this part, which I overlooked before, explains how it all went so wrong right from the beginning.

Never mind, Cicero; Oliver is just another Ron Paul supporter. You know what I mean?

[dudalb]

The nations of Western Europe finished their mass immigration experience with the Magyars (more or less).
Uh, you had quite a mass immigration experience with the Germans in what was then East Prussia after WW22. Therer are very few Germans left in what used to be East Prussia.

If you're looking for gut-based anti-semitism (and I get the feeling you are) you should check out Poland, not Germany.

I would bet your much beloved Russia is a lot worse for Anti Semitism then Poland.

[Herzblut]

It does seem that Germany's historical past still haunts the present.

According to the most recent numbers, 797 anti-Semitic crimes were committed in Germany between January and September 2008, up significantly from 716 similar crimes committed during the same period last year.

Most of which are "propaganda delicts" (agitation) which I assume are not illegal acts in the US. A more relevant figure seems the number of anti-Semitic physical assaults in the given time frame namely 21 in 2008, down from 23 in 2007.


The CDU/CSU can't seem to reconcile their differences with The Left Party, and vice versa, to sign the same anti-Semitism declaration.

Yeah, what a ridiculous political puppet theater.

[CapelDodger]

Whooopidooo, Cicero, you just discovered that racism is still present in a segment of the East German population, a population still muchly in the grip of attitudes formed under the Soviet occupation and the regime collapse in 1989, and the re-unification of Germany.

Germany has had a busy life :). I doubt cicero appreciates the enormity of reunification ...

And you just discovered the Left Party. Well, whooopidooo. Now to stress the bleedingly obvious: East Germany does not equal Germany.
D'oh.

... nor the insignificance of the Left Party.

cicero seems to have problems with scale and complexity.

[CapelDodger]

Yeah, what a ridiculous political puppet theater.

Spoken like your avatar :).

[Herzblut]

Herzblut beat me to it, but:

The same goes for Germany, unless you are on welfare benefits.
Yeah, that might be an aspect in some cases, where it is normally considered whether the applicant is to blame for it. When a stay permit is based on family ties to a German, this point becomes irrelevant.

[CapelDodger]

Uh, you had quite a mass immigration experience with the Germans in what was then East Prussia after WW22. Therer are very few Germans left in what used to be East Prussia.

The back-and-for of Germans, Russians, and the poor old Poles do not constitute mass immigration. It's the same players in different configurations. "Mass immigration" means Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Spain and Italy, Indonesians in Holland, East and West Indians in the UK, in significant numbers.

I would bet your much beloved Russia is a lot worse for Anti Semitism then Poland.

I have little regard for Russia (neither godless nor commies anymore, so what's to like?) but I've even less regard for Poles when it comes to anti-semitism. Eternal victims themselves, they've always taken out their resentment on easier victims when they get the chance. Which means Jews or Protestants, depending on circumstances. Mostly it turns out to be Jews.

Jews have fared better in Germany and Russia than in Poland : you choose to highlight Russia, and cicero highlights Germany. Poland needs a mention.

[Eskarina]

Yeah, that might be an aspect in some cases, where it is normally considered whether the applicant is to blame for it. When a stay permit is based on family ties to a German, this point becomes irrelevant.


True. I just wanted to point out that while language fluency usually isn't a necessity for taking up residency in Germany, it can be in some cases.

[dudalb]

The back-and-for of Germans, Russians, and the poor old Poles do not constitute mass immigration. It's the same players in different configurations. "Mass immigration" means Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Spain and Italy, Indonesians in Holland, East and West Indians in the UK, in significant numbers.



I have little regard for Russia (neither godless nor commies anymore, so what's to like?) but I've even less regard for Poles when it comes to anti-semitism. Eternal victims themselves, they've always taken out their resentment on easier victims when they get the chance. Which means Jews or Protestants, depending on circumstances. Mostly it turns out to be Jews.

Jews have fared better in Germany and Russia than in Poland : you choose to highlight Russia, and cicero highlights Germany. Poland needs a mention.

Oh, it's the old Moral Equivilency game.

[Eskarina]

It does seem that Germany's historical past still haunts the present.

According to the most recent numbers, 797 anti-Semitic crimes were committed in Germany between January and September 2008, up significantly from 716 similar crimes committed during the same period last year.

The CDU/CSU can't seem to reconcile their differences with The Left Party, and vice versa, to sign the same anti-Semitism declaration.

"It's undisputed that hidden anti-Semitism was part of the national interests of the GDR (former East Germany)," said parliamentarian Hans-Peter Uhl from the CSU. Uhl also accused the Left party of tolerating isolated anti-Semitic tendencies, which he said were evident in the party's policy toward Israel.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3766709,00.html


I take it then, that you don't have any more tales of horror about how incredibly difficult it is to become a German citizen?

[Cicero]

I take it then, that you don't have any more tales of horror about how incredibly difficult it is to become a German citizen?

I gave not looked. But are there any current polls in Germany that reflect a different sentiment from the one taken in the 1990's about German concern of increasing immigration and what it means to be a real German citizen?

[Gurdur]

I gave not looked. But are there any current polls in Germany that reflect a different sentiment from the one taken in the 1990's about German concern of increasing immigration and what it means to be a real German citizen?


Yes. Look for yourself.

[Oliver]

Oliver thought this would be a good topic for a thread.


No, I did not. I told you start a new thread rather than hijacking mine.
Anyway - I still dunno. :p

[Cicero]

How did you feel before about Obama's visit to Berlin, BTW? Were you OK with that? Were you as much in favour of Obama and his Berlin visit as so many Germans were?

It seemed German Chancellor Angela Merkel was not as enthusiastic as "so many Germans." Thomas Steg, a spokesman for Merkel, said Merkel has:

***.. “great skepticism as to whether it is appropriate to bring an election campaign being fought not in Germany but in the United States to the Brandenburg Gate.”..***

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/07/09/german-chancellor-uneasy-with-obamas-planned-appearance/

As long as the sound was muted, watching Obama's speech was of course a great moment in theatricality. His message, on the other hand, were hardly numinous, but rather just nebulous.

[Eskarina]

It seemed German Chancellor Angela Merkel was not as enthusiastic as "so many Germans." Thomas Steg, a spokesman for Merkel, said Merkel has:

***.. “great skepticism as to whether it is appropriate to bring an election campaign being fought not in Germany but in the United States to the Brandenburg Gate.”..***


The keywords here being "to the Brandenburg Gate". She considered it to be inappropriate for a Presidential candidate to give a speech at the Gate, where in the past only US Presidents, namely Reagan and Clinton, held speeches (as you would know, if you'd actually read that blog). Even JFK uttered his famous "Ich bin ein Berliner" from the balcony of the Rathaus Schöneberg.

I actually agreed with her (a rare occasion). But don't you worry, Klaus Wowereit, Berlin's mayor, has already invited Obama to Berlin, so you can expect to see videos of him speaking in front of the Brandenburg Gate to an enthusiastic crowd some time next year.

And Angela Merkel now probably is quite happy that she will never again get an unwarranted shoulder rub from an American President.

[Herzblut]

It seemed German Chancellor Angela Merkel was not as enthusiastic as "so many Germans." Thomas Steg, a spokesman for Merkel, said Merkel has:

***.. “great skepticism as to whether it is appropriate to bring an election campaign being fought not in Germany but in the United States to the Brandenburg Gate.”..***

You just don't get it, man.

The only subject of discussion has been the location of the speech, not the speech as such. JFK, Reagan and Clinton gave historical speeches, at least the first two :D, in front of the gate. I mean the gate, our Brandenburg Gate. But they were presidents in power.

No political candidate had ever been allowed to speak in front of our national monument. That would be as if a runner for German Chancellor would give a speech in front of Lincoln Memorial.

And keep in mind that massive critizism by Bush and McCain was hammering down to the German administration at that time.

Anyways, Obama's team once again demonstrated political wisdom and showed their openness for looking at the other great locations. That made it all a non-issue very quickly.

I'd be happy to see president Obama speaking up in Berlin again, and I know exactly the location where that will take place.


As long as the sound was muted, watching Obama's speech was of course a great moment in theatricality. His message, on the other hand, were hardly numinous, but rather just nebulous.
You simply don't get it. The speech is crystal clear in terms of its central messages and has been worded and performed brilliantly.

[Herzblut]

Even JFK uttered his famous "Ich bin ein Berliner" from the balcony of the Rathaus Schöneberg.

Thanks for that. I didn't know that one.

[Eskarina]

Thanks for that. I didn't know that one.

You're welcome. To be honest, I didn't know that myself (or had forgotten) until I entered a discussion here about Obama's speech in Berlin. :o

[Herzblut]

You're welcome. To be honest, I didn't know that myself (or had forgotten) until I entered a discussion here about Obama's speech in Berlin. :o
Interesting, but it seems I missed it. You have a link, please?

[Eskarina]

Here you go:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=118309

[CapelDodger]

Oh, it's the old Moral Equivilency game.

I leave morality out of it.

[CapelDodger]

I gave not looked. But are there any current polls in Germany that reflect a different sentiment from the one taken in the 1990's about German concern of increasing immigration and what it means to be a real German citizen?

You waited till now to ask that? Why didn't you ask it when you saw someone feeding you a '92 poll up here in 2008? I can't help thinking that the true Cicero would have spotted that before he stood up in the forum.

[CapelDodger]

And Angela Merkel now probably is quite happy that she will never again get an unwarranted shoulder rub from an American President.

:D

And no more "Yo, Blair!" stuff. No more of this down-home parochial US BS to put up with. Blair has gone, Bush has gone : say what you like about Merkel, Obama and Brown, you have to concede they have some substance. As does Putin (like him or loathe him, I think we need to work with him).

Sarkozy and Berlusconi are clowns, but we can use France and can do without Italy.

[CapelDodger]

I'd be happy to see president Obama speaking up in Berlin again, and I know exactly the location where that will take place.

The timing is the question. 2009 is too soon, 2012 is too campaigny. It has to be summer, of course, but 2010 or 2011? I reckon 2010.

In 2009 we have the Copenhagen Climate Conference. An historic speech needs an historic subject, and a joining of hands between the US and the EU on climate policy is something to celebrate in Berlin. Just before the Geneva Climate Conference that will be agreed in Copenhagan.

[Cicero]

You waited till now to ask that? Why didn't you ask it when you saw someone feeding you a '92 poll up here in 2008? I can't help thinking that the true Cicero would have spotted that before he stood up in the forum.

Is 2002 also too dated for your consideration? It seems to buttress what Germans were thinking in the 1990's.

***.."As in other countries, many Germans blame immigrants for crime and unemployment. Meanwhile, attacks on non-Germans have been on the increase in recent years."..***

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/13/germany.migrants/index.html

Race card fear in run up to German poll
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/race-card-fear-in-run-up-to-german-poll-642843.html


How about 2007?

***.."Out of the 950 Germans polled, 34% feel the integration of immigrants is the most important problem with immigration in Germany. On the other hand, 35% believe religious fundamentalism is the biggest problem. In other words, Germans are as concerned about a perceived lack of integration among immigrants as they are about religious fundamentalism.

Sixty-one percent of the people surveyed feel that most immigrants have difficulty integrating, whereas only 29% think that most are rather well integrated. Nearly 70%believe that foreign immigrants do not take the necessary steps to integrate, compared to 21% who feel that it is up to German society to initiate the integration process.

When asked how they perceive the so-called "Muslim world," 52% consider that religion is the common denominator while 38% think the opposite.

A large majority (66%) think that Islamic fundamentalism is gaining ground in the world compared to only 5% who think it is losing ground.

Germans feel they can rely on Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government to implement a policy adapted to the situation concerning immigration, but to a fairly low extent. 56% of Germans say they can rely on the government, 11% of them saying they can do so "completely". Hoverver, 41% do not trust the government on the issue, 14% of which said "not at all"..***

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/talk/20071004-debate-survey-France24-germany-immigration-tns-sofres.php

Hesse Governor Roland Koch, despite the accusations he ran a "xenophobic campaign," still won.

[CapelDodger]

You've clearly been doing your homework. Better late than never.

Is 2002 also too dated for your consideration? It seems to buttress what Germans were thinking in the 1990's.

***.."As in other countries, many Germans blame immigrants for crime and unemployment. Meanwhile, attacks on non-Germans have been on the increase in recent years."..***

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/13/germany.migrants/index.html


"As in other countries", and I think we can all agree with that.


Race card fear in run up to German poll
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/race-card-fear-in-run-up-to-german-poll-642843.html


That there race card didn't work, did it?

How about 2007?

***.."Out of the 950 Germans polled, 34% feel the integration of immigrants is the most important problem with immigration in Germany. On the other hand, 35% believe religious fundamentalism is the biggest problem. In other words, Germans are as concerned about a perceived lack of integration among immigrants as they are about religious fundamentalism.

In other words, bollocks. Responses to "what is the most important problem" do not mean that people are concerned about them. If you ask them "what's the greatest advantage of immigration" you might well get

"As far as the positive aspects of immigration are concerned, the poll participants give first place to cultural advantages, with 83% admiting to a greater awareness and tolerance of diverse cultures and lifestyles, while 75% consider increased exchanges between Germany and the source countrya positive factor. 74% consider cultural enrichment as the principal advantage of immigration, while 71% quote increased dynamics of demography in an ageing country."

Not much sign of concern, is there?


A large majority (66%) think that Islamic fundamentalism is gaining ground in the world compared to only 5% who think it is losing ground.

Do you regard this as reprehensible?

Germans feel they can rely on Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government to implement a policy adapted to the situation concerning immigration, but to a fairly low extent. 56% of Germans say they can rely on the government, 11% of them saying they can do so "completely". Hoverver, 41% do not trust the government on the issue, 14% of which said "not at all"..***

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/talk/20071004-debate-survey-France24-germany-immigration-tns-sofres.php



Your point being? What proportion of, say, the US population trusts its government "not at all" with regard to immigration would you estimate? Less than 14%? I doubt it. The US has a head-start, gvien all those folk who don't trust government in principle.

Hesse Governor Roland Koch, despite the accusations he ran a "xenophobic campaign," still won.

What sort of people made the allegations? Are you quite sure they're the sort of people you'd like to associate with?

[Herzblut]

Hesse Governor Roland Koch, despite the accusations he ran a "xenophobic campaign," still won.
Haha! You're funny.

Koch lost a landslide of 12% which brought down his comfortable majority in the Hessian Parliament (which elects the Minister President) to subzero. Due to a complicated political tie situation in parliament no candidate so far could gain the majority of delegates to become elected Minister President. Hence, Koch is just remaining the acting Minister President of Hesse, with a fierce left-wing majority opposing him in parliament. A totally lame duck, he can only administer but not govern Hesse.

His campaign was subject to very strong criticism, not only by German public and media but also by his very own party including its leaders, up to Chancellor Merkel.

[Chaos]

Haha! You're funny.

Koch lost a landslide of 12% which brought down his comfortable majority in the Hessian Parliament (which elects the Minister President) to subzero. Due to a complicated political tie situation in parliament no candidate so far could gain the majority of delegates to become elected Minister President. Hence, Koch is just remaining the acting Minister President of Hesse, with a fierce left-wing majority opposing him in parliament. A totally lame duck, he can only administer but not govern Hesse.

His campaign was subject to very strong criticism, not only by German public and media but also by his very own party including its leaders, up to Chancellor Merkel.

I think that statement referred to the previous election... which would make it accurate, but outdated.


@CapelDodger:

What sort of people made the allegations? Are you quite sure they're the sort of people you'd like to associate with?

That "sort of people" includes me, FWIW. In general, the people who didn´t criticize that campaign are the ones you wouldn´t want to associate with.

[Gurdur]

That "sort of people" includes me, FWIW. In general, the people who didn´t criticize that campaign are the ones you wouldn´t want to associate with.


And it includes me. But I see no reason to explain the complexities and realities to those only pushing an agenda, or to those who think Koch represents the BRD.

[Herzblut]

I think that statement referred to the previous election... which would make it accurate, but outdated.

OK, but the campaign that raised most criticism was the 2008 one. I was outraged, I found it infamous and disgusting. Good, he had to pay the price on election day.

[Chaos]

OK, but the campaign that raised most criticism was the 2008 one. I was outraged, I found it infamous and disgusting. Good, he had to pay the price on election day.

He´s in the position to stay in office, provisionally, until the fractious nature of the opposition paves the way for new elections, which he stand a decent chance of winning. That´s not what I call paying the price.

Koch is a sleazy populist piece of ****, who unfortunately has proven that being a sleazy populist piece of **** is the road to victory.

[Gurdur]

.... Koch is a sleazy populist piece of ****, who unfortunately has proven that being a sleazy populist piece of **** is the road to victory.

Only in one state. Sheesh, there are a fair few states in the BRD. And a few of them have populists; but they are not the majority of the states in the BRD.

[CapelDodger]

That "sort of people" includes me, FWIW. In general, the people who didn´t criticize that campaign are the ones you wouldn´t want to associate with.

No doubt, but are you the sort of person cicero would normally associate with?


eta : Hesse fell off my political radar in Bismarck's time; I was taking a shot in the dark.

[CapelDodger]

Koch is a sleazy populist piece of ****, who unfortunately has proven that being a sleazy populist piece of **** is the road to victory.

Only where he lives (and only very tenuously).

In, say, the wider expanses of the US of A (let alone Fife) this has proven to be the road to defeat.

[Eskarina]

Only in one state. Sheesh, there are a fair few states in the BRD. And a few of them have populists; but they are not the majority of the states in the BRD.


And just a couple of months ago, even the CSU lost it's absolute majority in Bavaria. Now that really is something I'd never expected to see in my life-time. ;)

[Georg]

And just a couple of months ago, even the CSU lost it's absolute majority in Bavaria. Now that really is something I'd never expected to see in my life-time. ;)


.....and something my unchristian family celebrated excessively. That election result will hopefully at least partly restore the ruined Bavarian reputation, with the pope coming from Bavaria and all......

[Herzblut]

He´s in the position to stay in office, provisionally, until the fractious nature of the opposition paves the way for new elections, which he stand a decent chance of winning. That´s not what I call paying the price.

He lost 12% from one election to the other. Voters didn't appreciate at all his law and order campaign at the expense of immigrants. That's what counts for me in the context of this thread. One can hardly blame him for the inability of the left majority to take over government, he's just the laughing profiteer of this embarrassing spectacle.


Koch is a sleazy populist piece of ****, who unfortunately has proven that being a sleazy populist piece of **** is the road to victory.
What he actually proved is the opposite.

[CapelDodger]

And just a couple of months ago, even the CSU lost it's absolute majority in Bavaria. Now that really is something I'd never expected to see in my life-time. ;)

That certainly is remarkable. What's behind the change? I always had Bavaria down as the last hold-out before Austria

[CapelDodger]

.....and something my unchristian family celebrated excessively. That election result will hopefully at least partly restore the ruined Bavarian reputation, with the pope coming from Bavaria and all......

Ah, yes, I see where you're going with this ...

Interesting. One should always keep an eye on the Vatican, and Benny "da Pope" XVI was the Vatican long before he became Pope. And Bavarian long before that.

[CapelDodger]

He lost 12% from one election to the other. Voters didn't appreciate at all his law and order campaign at the expense of immigrants. That's what counts for me in the context of this thread. One can hardly blame him for the inability of the left majority to take over government, he's just the laughing profiteer of this embarrassing spectacle.

The majority have no-one to blame but themselves. Lots of small fish squabbling over a small pond, it's not a pretty sight.


What he actually proved is the opposite.

The days of the sleazy populist are behind us, IMO. In these more straitened times people are too closely involved in the issues of the day for that approach to work.

[Georg]

Interesting. One should always keep an eye on the Vatican,


certainly true......

and Benny "da Pope" XVI was the Vatican long before he became Pope. And Bavarian long before that.


A lot of people do not know that he has been sort of the vatican master mind before he got his actual job.
We Bavarians were sort of the nation´s laughing stock for having a solid christian conservative majority for decades (and for some other reasons as well) anyway, and that even got a bit worse with Benny becoming the head of this mafia branch the catholic church.
So maybe you can imagine that it was quite a relief when the first extrapolation (?) came in on the election day and showed that stupidity can successfully be fought even in Bavaria........

[Chaos]

Only in one state. Sheesh, there are a fair few states in the BRD. And a few of them have populists; but they are not the majority of the states in the BRD.

Let´s see. Hesse (Koch did manage to be elected twice), Bavaria (the CSU is still the strongest party, after having had an absolute majority for decades), Saarland (they did fall for Lafontaine when he was still SPD) and all of the Eastern states (where both the Left Party and the various Neo-Nazi parties regularly score). That´s 8 states by my count, out of 16.

Plus of course Germany as a whole, which managed to keep that criminal Kohl in office for 16 years.

[Gurdur]

Let´s see. Hesse (Koch did manage to be elected twice),


Fine, Koch, a populist. We knew that one already.

Bavaria (the CSU is still the strongest party, after having had an absolute majority for decades),


Germans are naturally conservative; Bavarians make Germans look like hippies on LSD. The CSU ruled Bavaria so long because of smarts; they invested heavily in advanced tech industry, they ripped off the Federal govt for every cent they could get, and did very well for Bavaria. Not really populism; a conservative state party who knew well how gain pork-barrelling.


to Saarland (they did fall for Lafontaine when he was still SPD)


Lafontaine was nowhere near as bad as you imply, nor so populist back then either. Nor did he win power in the Saarland through populism. For example, he was spot-on about his analysis of reunification costs and risks, and what should have been done; had his own programme been adopted, it would have saved heaps and accomplished more.


and all of the Eastern states (where both the Left Party and the various Neo-Nazi parties regularly score). That´s 8 states by my count, out of 16.


Nope. Just because the Left Party score reasonably well with the Ossis is not such a big deal; and the far-right score far less. You're slamming the Ossis for more of them voting for populists than the Wessis do; but even so, the Left Party can't rule in its own right, and the far-right will never rule a state. Seems to me your criticism is exaggerated.

Plus of course Germany as a whole, which managed to keep that criminal Kohl in office for 16 years.


Puh-leeeze.

Kohl was not a criminal for most of his reign (or to put it another way, did not indulge in criminal actions for most of his reign); and he kept power owing to two factors, one his own political and economic adroitness, and the other factor being a rather incompetent, divided and lost SPD for most of that time. There are damned good reasons why the Greens scored so well during that time, and those reasons are to do with the SPD and its failures during that period.

Once the SPD started smartening up, it actually won Federal power, and the Greens no longer made inroads into the SPD voters. Populism was not why Kohl won and held power.

So I'ld say you need a far better analysis, and your reaction to populism is an over-reaction to an overly exaggerated threat.

[Chaos]

Kohl was not a criminal for most of his reign (or to put it another way, did not indulge in criminal actions for most of his reign); and he kept power owing to two factors, one his own political and economic adroitness, and the other factor being a rather incompetent, divided and lost SPD for most of that time. There are damned good reasons why the Greens scored so well during that time, and those reasons are to do with the SPD and its failures during that period.

Once the SPD started smartening up, it actually won Federal power, and the Greens no longer made inroads into the SPD voters. Populism was not why Kohl won and held power.

So I'ld say you need a far better analysis, and your reaction to populism is an over-reaction to an overly exaggerated threat.

You´ve already hinted that Kohl did not tell the people the truth about the costs of re-unification. He lied, telling them they could have it all, in no time, at no cost. That´s rather populist in my book.

Plus, yes, Kohl WAS a criminal. There have been more than enough "affairs" in which he was either known to be involved, or could not possibly not have been involved, that, if anyone had had the guts to thoroughly investigate them and follow through with prosecution, he´d be spending his retirement behind bars.

[Gurdur]

You´ve already hinted that Kohl did not tell the people the truth about the costs of re-unification. He lied, telling them they could have it all, in no time, at no cost. That´s rather populist in my book.


And I think you're exaggerating pretty badly; whether he lied or was guilty of wishful thinking, I don't know, but it's still not a huge populist measure, nor did Kohl attain or keep power via populist means. See my post above.

Moreover, the reunification costs and dirty deals came very late in his chancellorship period, so they are both irrelevant to your overall claims of:

Kohl attaining power through populism
Germans being terribly bad people only to ready to elect populists

Both claims seem to be adequately debunked to me; perhaps you could give your central argument a make-over, or possibly review your thesis?

You know, I really wish you could experience a very genuine populist in action; say Bjelke-Petersen of Queensland, Australia, or Huey Long and others like him of the American South; if you really experienced those, I think you would stop complaining about Lafontaine, Version 1, or even about Koch, as sleazy as he is.

Plus, yes, Kohl WAS a criminal. There have been more than enough "affairs" in which he was either known to be involved, or could not possibly not have been involved, that, if anyone had had the guts to thoroughly investigate them and follow through with prosecution, he´d be spending his retirement behind bars.


None of his dirty deals were known to the German electorate until extremely late in the day, so again, you're unfairly blaming the electorate. They did not elect Kohl because of populism, nor was Kohl a very populist leader at all.

[Georg]

Germans are naturally conservative; Bavarians make Germans look like hippies on LSD. The CSU ruled Bavaria so long because of smarts; they invested heavily in advanced tech industry, they ripped off the Federal govt for every cent they could get, and did very well for Bavaria. Not really populism; a conservative state party who knew well how gain pork-barrelling.




Mostly true, but only a part of the truth. To say the CSU is not populistic is simply wrong. It´s exactly the mixture of populism and economic success that guaranteed their longterm absolute majority. Strauß was one of the "most talented" populists in Germany ever.
Overall, I agree with you that Germans are not more prone to fall for populism than other peoples, though.

[Eskarina]

You know, I really wish you could experience a very genuine populist in action; say Bjelke-Petersen of Queensland, Australia, or Huey Long and others like him of the American South; if you really experienced those, I think you would stop complaining about Lafontaine, Version 1, or even about Koch, as sleazy as he is.

That seems to be a classical case of the "Tu quoque" fallacy. Just because there are worse populists, why should Chaos, or anyone else for that matter, stop criticising Koch? And while I agree on the old Lafontaine version, the "new and improved" version leaves much to be desired.

None of his dirty deals were known to the German electorate until extremely late in the day, so again, you're unfairly blaming the electorate. They did not elect Kohl because of populism, nor was Kohl a very populist leader at all.

Kohl wouldn't have lasted for 16 years, if it hadn't been for the fall of the Berlin Wall and the re-unification. He cashed in on the euphoria to become the "Chancellor of the Re-Unifiation" and thus made a lot of promises he couldn't keep and knew or should have known that he couldn't keep them. Remember the Thriving Landscapes (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bl%C3%BChende_Landschaften)?

That is populism.

On a side note, where's Cicero? :dio:

[Gurdur]

That seems to be a classical case of the "Tu quoque" fallacy. Just because there are worse populists, why should Chaos, or anyone else for that matter, stop criticising Koch? And while I agree on the old Lafontaine version, the "new and improved" version leaves much to be desired.


1) Tu quoque is not necessarily a fallacy. :p Really. It's only a fallacy for certain very strict conditions of argument, and not for this one (see below).

2) It's all a matter of proportion. :)

See above; I told Chaos that IMvHO Chaos is way over-reacting. By way of contextualisation, I gave him examples of real hard-on populist politicians, I could have named worse -- Le Pen in France comes to mind, as do several others.

IOW, yet again, I think Chaos is overdoing the Weltschmerz and the Reue. He is criticisng the German people as a whole for being too ready to vote in populists; and I've pointed out that they don't, muchly.

As for Ossis, hey, they're Ossis. The Turks can speak better German than the Ossis, and have jobs. :p

And as for the Bavarians, what the hell do you expect from men who like to wear leather and indulge in male-bonding? Long-shorts leather, at that? I'm only surprised they haven't died out yet owing to natural selection.

It's all a matter of proportion, and I think Chaos' stance is not proportionate to the reality.

That is populism.


Not really. See my last post and this one. Try Le Pen, see how much better Kohl looks afterwards. Or Berlusconi. Or if that's too much, Huey Long, Bjelke, Peron, and so on.

On a side note, where's Cicero? :dio:


Masochist. :p On the other hand, there was a completely different and quite long thread where I agreed wholeheartedly with Cicero, though beforehand I never would have believed any such thing could come to pass.

[mrbaracuda]

Oh! Finally I can chime in!
* mrbaracuda rubs hands

What would a thread about German stuff be without me?
Nevermind the two, three or four resident "I basically hate Germany anyway" people. Especially those obsessed with the lovely Bavaria being so, so.. so eew!

Usually, however, German citizenship depends not on where one is born (ius solis) but on the nationality of the father or, since 1974, on the mother (ius sanguinis). Thus, to many, German citizenship depends on being born German and cannot rightfully be acquired through a legal process. This notion makes it practically impossible for naturalized citizens or their children to be considered German.

I think all of the respondents have either overlooked or not understood the part I made bold in the quote. This notion is still there, certainly with me to some extend. Now, I couldn't care less where someone is from, but I think the large part of the blame where this notion still stems from can be put on politicians (as well as others) of practically all parties here: They always talk about the "migration background" of people who have said "background", even when someone has been born here and lived here.

They use it for their sociological BS about the OH SO HORRIBLE situations some of these people live in to "shield" them or whatever they try to accomplish by talking in a somewhat down-on-them-way (like: AAW, You got a "migration background", don't you? POOR THING!), or in the case of our two retarded far-far-right parties negatively. Both single them out, if you know what I mean.

Another thing that supports this notion and keeps it alive is the fact that many, probably mainly Turkish migrants as well as their children, even in the 3rd or 4th generation still cling to their, in this case,Turkish passports. I think I don't even know one Turk who doesn't either have both or the Turkish one and only the German one.

[Cicero]

Here is a 2006 article written by a an American living/working in Munich. It is a fascinating account of modern day Germans, even if they are Bavarians, by an Ausländer. How does Grim's nasal appraisal of simmering antisemitism, while actually living in Germany, compare with the JREFer native Germans analyzing the United States political system and racist history from four thousand miles away?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=D566A312-577F-4FBC-BBF2-18F9BF5E78BD

[mrbaracuda]

Here is a 2006 article written by a an American living/working in Munich. It is a fascinating account of modern day Germans, even if they are Bavarians, by an Ausländer.

:eusa_think: Hm yes, fascinating - and simmering - indeed.
Truly despicable and true as well. :(
Guess which party meets and mingles the most with terrorist scum!

The Left Party

And guess whose anti-Semitism is not being touched by politicians much or at all!

The muslims'

How does Grim's nasal appraisal of simmering antisemitism, while actually living in Germany, compare with the JREFer native Germans analyzing the United States political system and racist history from four thousand miles away?

Not exactly sure what you mean? Then again, I don't feel very addressed in the first place.


Edit: More for you, Cicero (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/anti-semitism-without-anti-semites/) :)
From one of my favourite Germans! :D

I'm looking for the (Pajamas?) article where they picked up the case of The Left Party destroying their pro-Israel youth group / wing.
Can't really find it right now though. If only I would remember the name..

Edit 2: Found it! Well, something anyway: Haaretz article about BAK Shalom (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/988608.html)
And I also just read (in German unfortuneately) (http://bak-shalom.de/index.php/2008/08/22/bundesarbeitskreise-durfen-auch-weiterhin-offentlichkeitsarbeit-leisten/) that the BAK Shalom can continue its work.
Previously their "mother party", the Left Party, tried to silence them in good old SED fashion.
Maybe you can find something on that; I might have a look later.

[CapelDodger]

Mostly true, but only a part of the truth. To say the CSU is not populistic is simply wrong. It´s exactly the mixture of populism and economic success that guaranteed their longterm absolute majority. Strauß was one of the "most talented" populists in Germany ever.
Overall, I agree with you that Germans are not more prone to fall for populism than other peoples, though.

I also agree, and I've seen nothing presented that might change my opinion. A similar job could be done on the French, the British, or the US by the same unconvincing tactics.

Economic failure trumps populism every time. Idiot populism doesn't survive long. Clever populism tends, by its nature, to be good for the populace.

[CapelDodger]

A lot of people do not know that he has been sort of the vatican master mind before he got his actual job.

Most people think it's only the Pope that matters. A Pope is, of course, as powerful as his influence on the Curia. Which makes Benny a very powerful Pope.

We Bavarians were sort of the nation´s laughing stock for having a solid christian conservative majority for decades (and for some other reasons as well) anyway, and that even got a bit worse with Benny becoming the head of this mafia branch the catholic church.

If it's any consolation to you, "Bavaria" means far more to me than any German "nation", from Bismarck's failed effort onwards. Bavaria has its own history and circumstances (which happen to involve it with Catholicism and therefore conservatism).

Bavaria is at great risk of being side-lined in a German nation; it takes a clever populist to avoid that.

So maybe you can imagine that it was quite a relief when the first extrapolation (?) came in on the election day and showed that stupidity can successfully be fought even in Bavaria........

Or perhaps Benny's Vatican wanted to rehabilitate Bavaria in the public eye? Maybe the Catholic Right didn't resist much.

[Gurdur]

<open letter to Cicero>
{would someone please quote this part so Cicero sees it? Thanks in advance.}

Here is a 2006 article written by a an American living/working in Munich. It is a fascinating account of modern day Germans, even if they are Bavarians, by an Ausländer.


Speaking as an Ausländer too, which is what I am as a non-EU citizen, non-European, non-German living in Germany, the article you cite is full of crap.

There are a large number of errors throughout th article, only a couple of which I will touch on at first, though I might do a long post on it tomorrow.

Let's look at what the article claims:


Germany today is a client state of America and must do its bidding. That means repression of overt anti-Semitism.


This bit is utter bollocks, and sounds like the rantings of some neonazi itself. Quite frankly, with Le Pen in France, Berlusconi's nastier allies in Italy, and that utter prick in Austria, the one who just managed to top himself in a car accident, if Germany was anywhere near as anti-semite as the article's author claims, they could very easily get away with one hell of a lot more. But they don't attempt it. Guess why? It's because what the author is claiming is untrue.

Yes, there is a tiny minority of Jews, mostly centered in Berlin,


Bollocks again, the Jewish community in Germany is quite sizeable and growing. There are around 200,000 Jews in Germany today, roughly 108,000 are registered with Jewish religious centres.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Germany#Jews_in_the_reunited_Germany_.28po st-1990.29), at present "Germany has the third-largest Jewish population in Western Europe after France (600,000) and Great Britain (300,000)".

According to the same source, more detailed, (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juden_in_Deutschland#Juden_in_Deutschland_heute), in Berlin are registered (with the religious communities) around 11,000 Jews, Munich with around 8,600, and Frankfurt with around 7,000 Jews (I stress that that does not include all Jews, that includes only those registered with Jewish religious communities).

I've personally mixed with the Duesseldorf and Wuppertal Jewish communities.


How does Grim's nasal appraisal of simmering antisemitism, while actually living in Germany,

It's utter crap as an article (though I like the phrase "nasal appraisal", but does that really mean what you think it does?), and is so obviously prejudiced even you must be able to see that. Take a look at this sentence in the article:
Additionally, it should be a goal of American foreign policy to oppose and to accelerate the dismemberment of the European Union.


More than revealing as an agenda, eh eh?

a strong, German-dominated EU that tolerates and even benignly encourages anti-Semitism,


This would be screamingly funny if it wasn't so pathetic and sad. It's a pack of lies. Usually, Germany gets a lot of stick for having extremely strong laws against advocating anti-semitism publically, and for advocating Holocaust-denial; I note the author doesn't even touch that. Usually, the JREF usual suspects rant about Germany being all nasty in suppressing poor, put-upon Holocaust-deniers and neonazis; now someone wants to try pretending the Germans actually toleratte let alone push anti-semitism?

Get a grip. Come back to planet surface and get a grip on reality.

compare with the JREFer native Germans analyzing the United States political system and racist history from four thousand miles away?


This is the important bit, Cicero. You started off this whole thing because Oliver was doing what Oliver does as so often, on another thread. So to counter-attack, you naturally thought you would point out what you thought were problems in Oliver's own backyard, and you would point out with that that Oliver had no right to be so critical of the USA, and above all so erroneously critical of the USA as Oliver always is.

Well, get this: Oliver doesn't care. You could find that 99.99% of all modern Germans are members of the NSDAP, and still Oliver wouldn't care, and it won't interfere with Oliver's jihad against the USA. Oliver doesn't give a **** about Germany; he doesn't even vote in German elections, and he feels no shame in so stating.

So, Cicero, not only might you like to reconsider your whole stance, and get your information from less so-obviously-prejudiced sources than the article's author, and you might like to also reconsider your whole strategy vis-á-vis Oliver. Not a single other German on JREF, as far as I know, agrees with Oliver on Oliver's monomanic hatred of the USA; and every other German on JREF takes much more care to be factual and not so blatantly biased as Oliver. Do consider that.

</end of open letter to Cicero>
________________

What would a thread about German stuff be without me?


Better off.

Nevermind the two, three or four resident "I basically hate Germany anyway" people.

Abdul Alhazared is not on this thread, so, as so often mrb, you better re-read the thread.

Guess which party meets and mingles the most with terrorist scum!
The Left Party


Nartionally, a very small party with a very small percentage of the vote. *yawn*

And guess whose anti-Semitism is not being touched by politicians much or at all!
The muslims'


This is a lie, since Islamist extremism has in fact been tackled quite a lot by Germans and German politicians; and moreover, replacing anti-semitism with open racism towards Muslims is hardly any kind of moral improvement. So let's not go off on your favourite derail about the Muslims you hate so much, mrb, after all the thread is about alleged bigotry in Germans. Oh dear, maybe you could take a holiday from the thread while I and others show that most Germans don't actually support such bigotry? It would look far better in the thread if you didn't muck it up, eh?
;)

[Gurdur]

On mrbaracuda's comments in this thread, you might like to compare with his post in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4199683&postcount=95); read the post and the whole thread --- mrbaracuda basically contradicts himself very badly indeed.

In this thread, mrbaracuda comes off as trying to claim anti-semitism is a huge problem in Germany; in the other thread, (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4199683#post4199683) he tries claiming that German laws against publically advocating anti-semitism are a terrible problem.

It and other contradictions are all quite amusing ;); a blatant example of having one's cake and eating it too.

_________

Edited to add:

Here is a direct link to the website (in English) of the Central Jewish organization in Germany (http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/sitemap.php?lang=en)

[Georg]

Oh! Finally I can chime in!
* mrbaracuda;4199670 rubs hands

What would a thread about German stuff be without me?


A more rational discourse and therefore a more pleasant experience?

Nevermind the two, three or four resident "I basically hate Germany anyway" people. Especially those obsessed with the lovely Bavaria being so, so.. so eew!


I think Bavaria itself is lovely, otherwise I probably would not live there.
The annoying part was the political situation for the last 46 years.

[Georg]

I also agree, and I've seen nothing presented that might change my opinion. A similar job could be done on the French, the British, or the US by the same unconvincing tactics.

Economic failure trumps populism every time. Idiot populism doesn't survive long. Clever populism tends, by its nature, to be good for the populace.

Yes.

Most people think it's only the Pope that matters. A Pope is, of course, as powerful as his influence on the Curia. Which makes Benny a very powerful Pope.


Yes.



If it's any consolation to you, "Bavaria" means far more to me than any German "nation", from Bismarck's failed effort onwards. Bavaria has its own history and circumstances (which happen to involve it with Catholicism and therefore conservatism).


Thanks.


Bavaria is at great risk of being side-lined in a German nation; it takes a clever populist to avoid that.

Or perhaps Benny's Vatican wanted to rehabilitate Bavaria in the public eye? Maybe the Catholic Right didn't resist much.


Those two paragraphs I do not understand, sorry.

[Chaos]

IOW, yet again, I think Chaos is overdoing the Weltschmerz and the Reue. He is criticisng the German people as a whole for being too ready to vote in populists; and I've pointed out that they don't, muchly.

Technically speaking, I think *every* nation is too ready to vote for populists. And I think that any vote for a populist at all is too much.

As for Ossis, hey, they're Ossis. The Turks can speak better German than the Ossis, and have jobs. :p

For all you know I could be an Ossi in exile.

And as for the Bavarians, what the hell do you expect from men who like to wear leather and indulge in male-bonding? Long-shorts leather, at that? I'm only surprised they haven't died out yet owing to natural selection.

Fair enough.;)

[DC]

resident "I basically hate Germany anyway" people.

http://www.aerthyr.net/images/facepalm2.jpg

[mrbaracuda]

mrbaracuda basically contradicts himself very badly indeed.

No, not even basically. You apparently would like to make the sole expression of a thought a punishable crime, whereas I would not.

There's no contradiction here.

The whole "drag it out into the sunlight" (as in public) comes to mind.
If the (German) public is so prone to these thoughts, which I do not think it is, at least not on a large scale, so be it.

I wonder what the NPD considers you as, hm. Do they want Aussies out, too?

The annoying part was the political situation for the last 46 years.

But not the people who vote them in, time after time, right.

.....and something my unchristian family celebrated excessively. That election result will hopefully at least partly restore the ruined Bavarian reputation, with the pope coming from Bavaria and all......

Right.

Tell me, have you and your "unchristian family" who "celebrated excessively" after the presumably evil Christians lost a good portion of their vote suffered so much under the iron fist rule of the Christian Social Union?

It strikes me as a little odd in face of your statements that the closest ally of both the parties that have "Christian" in their name, if push comes to shove in the sense of building a majority, is the one party which pursues libertarianism - or FDP.

This is a lie, since Islamist extremism

Islamist extremism? Well I am talking about the inherent anti-Semitism in mainstream Islam. But since you brought it up, where do you personally draw the line between a Muslim and an "Islamist"?

replacing anti-semitism with open racism towards Muslims is hardly any kind of moral improvement.

Which I am not advocating. What race are muslims again though?

So let's not go off on your favourite derail about the Muslims you hate so much, mrb, after all the thread is about alleged bigotry in Germans.

Ah! Muslims aren't Germans then, I get it.

Oh dear,

why was I even tempted to view this post. :D

[Georg]

But not the people who vote them in, time after time, right.

Who said that? Not me actually. I did not say I like most of the people, I said I like Bavaria, which is not the same.

Right.

Tell me, have you and your "unchristian family" who "celebrated excessively" after the presumably evil Christians lost a good portion of their vote suffered so much under the iron fist rule of the Christian Social Union?


Having still crosses in the school classrooms, having the churches very much influence political decisions, having the CSU-run state and city governments outsource more and more jobs to "christian" organisations because they are the cheapest (since they exploit their employees best), ETA: and those organisations only employ christians, even when they are doing the work of the state, having a flowering corruption since there was hardly anybody able to control them because of their solid majority (and for your record: I liked it also very much when the SPD lost their majority in Nordrhein Westfalen, a too long reign of one party most likely will lead to corruption, doesn´t matter what party it is), being sort of outcasts because you do not go to church on Sundays and everyone knows that in a small village of about 1000 inhabitants maybe does not fit the definition of suffering, but is surely enough reason to celebrate when it´s over.

It strikes me as a little odd in face of your statements that the closest ally of both the parties that have "Christian" in their name, if push comes to shove in the sense of building a majority, is the one party which pursues libertarianism - or FDP.


I think "liberal" describes the FDP better than "libertarian", you should look up the definitions.
You should inform yourself a bit better anyway, because if you would, you would know that the CSU and the FDP were not reaaly close friends in the CDU/CSU/FDP coalition under Kohl.
Next: I do not think I ever stated that I put the CDU and the CSU in the same category. If you think I did, please show me where, otherwise stop with your strawmen, please.
What was your point again?

[mrbaracuda]

Who said that? Not me actually. I did not say I like most of the people, I said I like Bavaria, which is not the same.

You don't say!

[...]crosses in the school classrooms [...] churches very much influence political decisions [...] more and more jobs to "christian" organisations [...] being sort of outcasts because you do not go to church on Sundays and everyone knows that[...] does not fit the definition of suffering, but is surely enough reason to celebrate when it´s over.

All done by people, yes.

So the crosses are out of the classrooms, churches have less influence in political decisions, less and less jobs go to Christian organisations and you're not "sort of an outcast" anymore now that the CSU lost much of the vote and has to take in the FDP?

Or would, say, the SPD or someone else have to govern Bavaria for that to happen?
Or maybe, just maybe, it all goes back to the majority of voters, of people.

What exactly was there to celebrate for your family? Just the drop in votes then?

I think "liberal" describes the FDP better than "libertarian"

Both do just fine in this case.

You should inform yourself a bit better anyway, because if you would, you would know that the CSU and the FDP were not reaaly close friends in the CDU/CSU/FDP coalition under Kohl.

Which I didn't say, so you can spare me your high and mighty I know it better attitude which always comes out when you post for some strange reason.
I could whine about imaginary strawmen now, but I am not a Georg!

Next: I do not think I ever stated that I put the CDU and the CSU in the same category. If you think I did

I don't.
As for my point, I don't know. Can't I talk to a fellow German anymore without having some point?

[Georg]

You don't say!

Oh yes, I do.


All done by people, yes.

So?

So the crosses are out of the classrooms, churches have less influence in political decisions, less and less jobs go to Christian organisations and you're not "sort of an outcast" anymore now that the CSU lost much of the vote and has to take in the FDP?

It will take some time, but that´s the hope, yes.

Or would, say, the SPD or someone else have to govern Bavaria for that to happen?

Since that probably won´t happen during my lifetime, I have to adjust my goals.......


Or maybe, just maybe, it all goes back to the majority of voters, of people.

Of course it does.

What exactly was there to celebrate for your family? Just the drop in votes then?


That they lost their absolute majority, yes. Quite a milestone for Bavaria, don´t you think?


Both do just fine in this case.

No.


Which I didn't say, so you can spare me your high and mighty I know it better attitude which always comes out when you post for some strange reason.
I could whine about imaginary strawmen now, but I am not a Georg!

You said:
it strikes me as a little odd in face of your statements that the closest ally of both the parties that have "Christian" in their name, if push comes to shove in the sense of building a majority, is the one party which pursues libertarianism - or FDP.


which implies that the CSU can´t be that freedom restricting etc., and that they are something like natural partners, but the CSU and FDP simply aren´t. So your complaining actually would really be about a imaginary strawmen, you got that part right.
But probably I make a mistake by assuming that you actually think before you post.


I don't.

No?

What else do you imply with that same part of your post, then? Nothing? Just hot air?

It strikes me as a little odd in face of your statements that the closest ally of both the parties that have "Christian" in their name....,


As for my point, I don't know. Can't I talk to a fellow German anymore without having some point?


If you do not have to contribute anything, community would be the better place for you.

[mrbaracuda]

Telling me what I think, what I don't know, what I should do.
You really are a lovely guy, Georg. Keep it up!

[Eskarina]

1) Tu quoque is not necessarily a fallacy. :p Really. It's only a fallacy for certain very strict conditions of argument, and not for this one (see below).


Funny, it used to work like magic on another forum where desperate Scientologists tried to veer discussion away from the evil deeds of the CoS by whining "Look at Christianity! They are worse! WORSE, I tells ya!!!EleventyOne!!!".

Not that I'm comparing you in any way shape or form to them, mind you!

2) It's all a matter of proportion. :)

See above; I told Chaos that IMvHO Chaos is way over-reacting. By way of contextualisation, I gave him examples of real hard-on populist politicians, I could have named worse -- Le Pen in France comes to mind, as do several others.

IOW, yet again, I think Chaos is overdoing the Weltschmerz and the Reue. He is criticisng the German people as a whole for being too ready to vote in populists; and I've pointed out that they don't, muchly.


I think I can understand where Chaos is coming from on this issue. I take "Wehret den Anfängen" very seriously, because I've asked myself "What would I have done, had I lived in the thirties? And even though I'd like to think of myself as another Sophie Scholl, the answer I got was "Reply hazy, try again".

As for Ossis, hey, they're Ossis. The Turks can speak better German than the Ossis, and have jobs. :p


Are you kidding? Nobody in Germany speaks good German, apart maybe from those in the Northern parts. A lot of people probably cringe at my Ruhrpott-accent. ;) And as for the unemployment rate here...

And as for the Bavarians, what the hell do you expect from men who like to wear leather and indulge in male-bonding? Long-shorts leather, at that? I'm only surprised they haven't died out yet owing to natural selection.


At least they have the decency to wear stockings with it, like the Scottish with their kilts. And male-bonding seems to be a universal phenomenon, judging from my own observations. :p


Not really. See my last post and this one. Try Le Pen, see how much better Kohl looks afterwards. Or Berlusconi. Or if that's too much, Huey Long, Bjelke, Peron, and so on.


That still won't stop me from criticising Koch et al. for their attempts at populism.

Although to be fair, my SO, who was involved in German politics back in the 90ies on a local level, hated Kohl with a passion but nowadays says that Bush makes Kohl look like ******* genius. :)


Masochist. :p On the other hand, there was a completely different and quite long thread where I agreed wholeheartedly with Cicero, though beforehand I never would have believed any such thing could come to pass.


Die Geister, die ich rief...

And just because someone is singularly uninformed about one subject doesn't mean they are uninformed about others.

[Darth Rotor]

Plus of course Germany as a whole, which managed to keep that criminal Kohl in office for 16 years.

That is strong language, Chaos. What was Kohl's crime, other than not being in your party? I'd be interested to know, given his significant success as Chancellor.

Care to explain to this a non-German?

DR

[Georg]

Telling me what I think, what I don't know, what I should do.
You really are a lovely guy, Georg. Keep it up!


I will, promised! At least as long as you keep spouting your nonsense and then try to deny it afterwards.
By the way, thanks for the "lovely guy", sweetheart :blush:.

[Georg]

That is strong language, Chaos. What was Kohl's crime, other than not being in your party? I'd be interested to know, given his significant success as Chancellor.

Care to explain to this a non-German?

DR


I´m not Chaos, but I think this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_CDU_contributions_scandal) is what he means:

In late 1999, it was discovered that the German Christian Democratic Union (CDU) political party had accepted illegal donations while under the control of Chancellor Helmut Kohl in the 1990s. This issue had been ongoing since 1995, but little progress had been made until the rival SPD initiated its own investigation in October 1999.

On 5 November 1999, the Augsburg prosecutor's office arrested former CDU treasurer Walther Leisler Kiep on charges of tax evasion in connection with a large donation to the CDU by weapons dealer Karlheinz Schreiber in 1991.

Although Kohl initially denied knowledge of the donation or Kiep's actions, he was forced to admit by 30 November that the CDU used a network of secret bank accounts to conceal contributions, and in a December television interview Kohl admitted to have illegally accepted several million DM, though he did not name the donors. On 18 January, Kohl resigned his post as honorary chairman of the CDU.




ETA: What besides the reunification would you see as Kohl´s "significant success" as a Chancellor?
I´d really like to know......

[Chaos]

I´m not Chaos, but I think this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_CDU_contributions_scandal) is what he means:

That´s it, exactly. Plus of course the various collateral scandals, like the Great Shredding between the ´98 election and the change of government, Kohl´s revelation that for him, promises he gives are more important than the law, the "jewish inheritances" lie... and so on.

Then think of the, at least, very questionable dealings concerning Elf Aquitaine and the sale of the former East German state gas station network. The various shady deals around the Treuhand and the privatization of East Germany. The sale of the state railroad corporation´s appartement buildings.

And, if memory serves, there was another party contribution scandal in the 80´s, which Kohl managed to get out of unscathed - mostly, I suspect, because the grass had grown all over that one by the time someone came to power who was willing to really investigate.

ETA: What besides the reunification would you see as Kohl´s "significant success" as a Chancellor?
I´d really like to know......

Me, too. And I´m not even sure the reunification is really his success - rather than just an opportunity he did not screw up.

And even then his success would be only that the reunification happened - not how it, and the reintegration of East Germany, was handled. See above, for example, see East Germany now, for example, see all the state-sanctioned East German criminals drawing state pensions today, for example.

[Eskarina]

No, not even basically. You apparently would like to make the sole expression of a thought a punishable crime, whereas I would not.


Link, please!

There's no contradiction here.

The whole "drag it out into the sunlight" (as in public) comes to mind.
If the (German) public is so prone to these thoughts, which I do not think it is, at least not on a large scale, so be it.

And you don't have the slightest urge to, you know, change that, given our country's history?

I wonder what the NPD considers you as, hm. Do they want Aussies out, too?


And this has got to do anything with anything how?

Right.

Tell me, have you and your "unchristian family" who "celebrated excessively" after the presumably evil Christians lost a good portion of their vote suffered so much under the iron fist rule of the Christian Social Union?


Have you walked a mile in Georg's shoes? And besides, as Georg's family probably isn't responsible for that landslide loss alone, have you actually taken a look at what caused the massive loss of voters?


It strikes me as a little odd in face of your statements that the closest ally of both the parties that have "Christian" in their name, if push comes to shove in the sense of building a majority, is the one party which pursues libertarianism - or FDP.


The FDP trying to (re-)gain power strikes you as a "little odd"? This still is the Politics section, isn't it? :eek:

Islamist extremism? Well I am talking about the inherent anti-Semitism in mainstream Islam. But since you brought it up, where do you personally draw the line between a Muslim and an "Islamist"?


Which is totally irrelevant. Nevertheless, where does the state draw the line?

Oh, and BTW, have you looked up up the meaning of Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic)?


Which I am not advocating. What race are muslims again though?


What race are Jews again?

Ah! Muslims aren't Germans then, I get it.


And Germans aren't muslims. Then again, some Germans are muslim and some muslims are German and...

Sod it, let someone else figure this out...

why was I even tempted to view this post. :D


Only you and the FSM will ever know fer sure.

[mrbaracuda]

Oh, and BTW, have you looked up up the meaning of Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic)?

What race are Jews again?

I didn't expect this BS from you really.

[CapelDodger]

Those two paragraphs I do not understand, sorry.

As to the first : Bavaria could easily be marginalised within Federal Germany, because of its Catholicism and its being historically inclined to Austria (and occasionally France), not to Protestant Germany. German nationalism is very much a Protestant creation. Bavaria was rather neglected by the Weimar Republic.

Clever political operators have prevented this by making wider alliances within the Federation, while maintaining an independent party (to please the Bavarians). For small states it's all about leverage.


As to the second : it's to Benny's advantage that "Bavarian" loses it loony image, and lo, this has sort of happened. The cynic in me suspects that none of the usual effort was made to get out the Vatican vote; they didn't so much lose as choose not to win. A small sacrifice for the Vatican, after all. Benny's ambitions for the Church are on a much larger scale, IMO.

[CapelDodger]

Although to be fair, my SO, who was involved in German politics back in the 90ies on a local level, hated Kohl with a passion but nowadays says that Bush makes Kohl look like ******* genius. :)

There's an image to play with, "Chancellor Busche" handling reunification. Kohl screwed up, but at least we were all spared another land-war with Russia.

[Gurdur]

Funny, it used to work like magic on another forum where desperate Scientologists tried to veer discussion away from the evil deeds of the CoS by whining "Look at Christianity! They are worse! WORSE, I tells ya!!!EleventyOne!!!".


Won't work with me, unlike most I actually have a deeper understanding of logic, and I actually am logical. Oh, and more, unlike many, I'm rational and reasonable.
:p

I think I can understand where Chaos is coming from on this issue. I take "Wehret den Anfängen" very seriously, because I've asked myself "What would I have done, had I lived in the thirties? And even though I'd like to think of myself as another Sophie Scholl, the answer I got was "Reply hazy, try again".


I agree, however over-exaggeration can be very harmful. For example, if someone screams "Kohl is Hitler!", what have they left to say when the real Hitler comes along? The boy who cried wolf and all that; making oneself ridiculous is not good political or ethical strategy.


Although to be fair, my SO, who was involved in German politics back in the 90ies on a local level, hated Kohl with a passion but nowadays says that Bush makes Kohl look like ******* genius. :)


This is my point. People must be accurate and precise, and not exaggerate. Exaggeration only depresses and/or alienates people and trivializes the issues.


For all you know I could be an Ossi in exile.


True. But as we both know, most racist attacks are in Ossiland; while I have encountered racism and xenophobia everywhere around the world and in Germany in isolated cases, we both know that the far-right and the racists are more numerous and organized in Ossiland than in Wessiland.

[CapelDodger]

This is my point. People must be accurate and precise, and not exaggerate. Exaggeration only depresses and/or alienates people and trivializes the issues.

Exactly.

True. But as we both know, most racist attacks are in Ossiland; while I have encountered racism and xenophobia everywhere around the world and in Germany in isolated cases, we both know that the far-right and the racists are more numerous and organized in Ossiland than in Wessiland.

The post-Nazi Ossi experience was, of course, very different from the Wessi experience. There seems to have been a great deal more continuity in Ossiland.

[Georg]

As to the first : Bavaria could easily be marginalised within Federal Germany, because of its Catholicism and its being historically inclined to Austria (and occasionally France), not to Protestant Germany. German nationalism is very much a Protestant creation. Bavaria was rather neglected by the Weimar Republic.


There are as many catholics living in Germany as there are protestants (each about 30% of the poulation), so I´m not so sure about that....


As to the second : it's to Benny's advantage that "Bavarian" loses it loony image, and lo, this has sort of happened. The cynic in me suspects that none of the usual effort was made to get out the Vatican vote; they didn't so much lose as choose not to win. A small sacrifice for the Vatican, after all. Benny's ambitions for the Church are on a much larger scale, IMO.



I think you overestimate the influence of the vatican on the election. Influence on the CSU, yes, but not so much on the vote of the people.
My hope is that the era of CSU-only reign is really over, not depending on the vatican´s action. We´ll see........

[ddt]

The back-and-for of Germans, Russians, and the poor old Poles do not constitute mass immigration. It's the same players in different configurations. "Mass immigration" means Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Spain and Italy, Indonesians in Holland, East and West Indians in the UK, in significant numbers.
As a small nitpick: Holland didn't have a mass immigration of Indonesians. Before WW2, Indonesians came here, generally speaking, as wives of retired civil servants. After WW2, some 4,000 Ambonese came over here because they had served in the Colonial Army and thus were seen by the Indonesians as collaborators - and there was the issue that Sukarno obviously wasn't intent on granting the Moluccans a form of independence in a federalized state. Mass immigration into Holland also came from the 60s onwards, with predominantly Turks and Moroccans, and for our colonial history, Surinams.

You waited till now to ask that? Why didn't you ask it when you saw someone feeding you a '92 poll up here in 2008? I can't help thinking that the true Cicero would have spotted that before he stood up in the forum.
You're not really comparing the poster 'cicero' with Marcus Tullius? He's not even worthy to shine Marcus' boots sandals when it comes to oratory skills. It's good to see that all his strawmen have been decisively stricken down.

That is strong language, Chaos. What was Kohl's crime, other than not being in your party? I'd be interested to know, given his significant success as Chancellor.

How do you measure success? The length of his tenure has less to do with Kohl being a great Chancellor than with the ineptness of his adversaries - the heirs of Brandt and Schmidt rather quibbled among themselves then put up a decent alternative to Kohl - and his own survival skills. In measure of lasting effect on German politics, I'd take Willy Brandt any moment over Kohl. Brandt crafted his revolutionary Ostpolitiek himself. The reunification of Germany happened to Kohl, he foresaw it as much little as anyone.

[Cicero]

You're not really comparing the poster 'cicero' with Marcus Tullius? He's not even worthy to shine Marcus' boots sandals when it comes to oratory skills. It's good to see that all his strawmen have been decisively stricken down.


Being this is a writing communication forum, your assessment of my oratory skills, or lack of, is based on what exactly? Perhaps you are old enough to have actually heard Marcus Tullius Cicero speak?

CapelDodger has not disproved the evidence of current German nationalism. He even says, "German nationalism is very much a Protestant creation." He is just in denial as to the degree it still exists in Germany.

[Darth Rotor]

That´s it, exactly.
Thank you both for the insights into German politics, and the dirt on Kohl.

Appreciated.

So, reunification aside, you might agree that the German people, the electorate, are complete and utter morons for keeping a complete incompetent in office for 16 years?

Is that it? :confused: He really had no success, but stayed in office for sixteen years in spite of being an idiot?

I am not going to pretend that all he did was wonderful. I am sure that like any leader he screwed up as often as not. Seems, however, that you have to have success to retain that position for sixteen bloody years, eh?

Perhaps not. Given the nature of coalitions in parliamentary governments, and my own observation that Italians change governments and PM's like I change my socks, I find it impressive that Kohl broke Thatcher's record for head of a multi party parliamentary system by about six years. He beat FDR by 3.

DR

[Georg]

Thank you both for the insights into German politics, and the dirt on Kohl.

Appreciated.


You´re welcome.


So, reunification aside, you might agree that the German people, the electorate, are complete and utter morons for keeping a complete incompetent in office for 16 years?

Is that it? :confused: He really had no success, but stayed in office for sixteen years in spite of being an idiot?

I am not going to pretend that all he did was wonderful. I am sure that like any leader he screwed up as often as not. Seems, however, that you have to have success to retain that position for sixteen bloody years, eh?

Perhaps not. Given the nature of coalitions in parliamentary governments, and my own observation that Italians change governments and PM's like I change my socks, I find it impressive that Kohl broke Thatcher's record for head of a multi party parliamentary system by about six years. He beat FDR by 3.

DR




There is some space between "complete incompetent" and "significant success" and I´d say Kohl fits somewhere in that space.

The reasons why he was in his job for 16 years? I can only speculate.
Two I agree with were said by ddt: the social democrats were not in their best form during this era and Kohl was talented in silencing his critics within his party (survival instinct).

Another one would be that he actually made politics of "doing nothing", or in other words, he did not do some necessary things the people would not have liked (cuts in the social system). He actually made politics that now could be seen as the one of a social democrat.
Ironically the SPD/green government that came to power afterwards had the balls to do that, in some parts they actually made politics that could be seen as typical for the conservatives and is today indeed welcomed by the CDU/CSU.
The line between social democrats and conservatives is quite blurred nowadays in my opinion, sometimes it seems difficult to see where they differ in substantial issues at all.
Of course that is the very simplistic version of my opinion, but you get the gist, I hope.

Contrary to other posters who commented on that, I think Kohl did play a role in making the reunification possible. Sure, it was a good moment regarding the overall political situation, but he was the one to actually use it and he had the good relationships to the leaders of the former allies that were necessary for making it possible. Not sure, if the social democrats would have taken or would have been able to take that chance, I have to admit.

Disclaimer: I still don´t like Kohl, though.

[Darth Rotor]

There is some space between "complete incompetent" and "significant success" and I´d say Kohl fits somewhere in that space.

The reasons why he was in his job for 16 years? I can only speculate.
Two I agree with were said by ddt: the social democrats were not in their best form during this era and Kohl was talented in silencing his critics within his party (survival instinct).

Another one would be that he actually made politics of "doing nothing", or in other words, he did not do some necessary things the people would not have liked (cuts in the social system). He actually made politics that now could be seen as the one of a social democrat.
Thanks again for the fine summary and insight. Puttin' the E into JREF.

DR

[Georg]

Thanks again for the fine summary and insight. Puttin' the E into JREF.

DR


Thank you, Darth Rotor. Not sure if I deserve the compliment though, because, as I stated, it is only my speculation.
Maybe the other German members here will tear me to shreds for what I wrote...............

ETA: And stop being so friendly anyway, according to mrtoyfish we obviously should be enemies because we do not completely agree in the free speech issue :).

[Darth Rotor]

Thank you, Darth Rotor. Not sure if I deserve the compliment though, because, as I stated, it is only my speculation.
Maybe the other German members here will tear me to shreds for what I wrote...............

ETA: And stop being so friendly anyway, according to mrtoyfish we obviously should be enemies because we do not completely agree in the free speech issue :).
As I see it, I disagree with how the Germans apply the concept to political speech, and do not care to see Americans "learn" from the Germans and try to apply it here, since there are a lot of continental habits I don't think belong on this side of the pond. Our forefathers left Europe for a variety of reasons, some of which included getting out of Old World habits. Our experiment continues apace.

If Germans generally like free speech constrained that way, it's your country, do as you deem best for your country.

DR

[Chaos]

Thank you, Darth Rotor. Not sure if I deserve the compliment though, because, as I stated, it is only my speculation.
Maybe the other German members here will tear me to shreds for what I wrote...............

Not quite, but I can hit you over the head with a big blunt object if you like.

Plus I would add to your speculation that he cashed in big time on the bonus of the reunification happening on his watch. You don´t vote the "Chancellor of the Reunification" out of office...

[Georg]

As I see it, I disagree with how the Germans apply the concept to political speech, and do not care to see Americans "learn" from the Germans and try to apply it here, since there are a lot of continental habits I don't think belong on this side of the pond. Our forefathers left Europe for a variety of reasons, some of which included getting out of Old World habits. Our experiment continues apace.

If Germans generally like free speech constrained that way, it's your country, do as you deem best for your country.

DR

Fair enough.

Not quite, but I can hit you over the head with a big blunt object if you like.


Not too keen on that actually......

Plus I would add to your speculation that he cashed in big time on the bonus of the reunification happening on his watch. You don´t vote the "Chancellor of the Reunification" out of office...

Good one. Agreed. What do you say to the rest of my speculation?

[Chaos]

Not too keen on that actually......

Pity. How about a small, blunt object?

Good one. Agreed. What do you say to the rest of my speculation?

Sounds pretty good, too. Mind you, I don´t really know the pre-unification period very well first-hand - I was only 12 when the wall fell. But I think your speculation is fairly accurate for post-unification.

[Georg]

Pity. How about a small, blunt object?


You really do like the Bavarians, don´t you? Or is it just a special sympathy for me and I can feel privileged somehow :p?


Sounds pretty good, too. Mind you, I don´t really know the pre-unification period very well first-hand - I was only 12 when the wall fell. But I think your speculation is fairly accurate for post-unification.


O.K. then, young man :).
We are now eagerly awaiting mrtoyfish´s analysis and final decision on this matter.

[dudalb]

You really do like the Bavarians, don´t you? Or is it just a special sympathy for me and I can feel privileged somehow

Are your Germans trying to start up the 30 Years War Again?:D

[Chaos]

Are your Germans trying to start up the 30 Years War Again?:D

I´m just trying to get those lederhosen-wearing, weißbier-drinking weirdos mad enough that they´ll secede. I live about 10 miles from the border to Bavaria, and I constantly feel hardcore Catholicism breathing down my neck...

:D (of course)

[CapelDodger]

There are as many catholics living in Germany as there are protestants (each about 30% of the poulation), so I´m not so sure about that....

This hasn't generally been the case for the region since the Reformation, but that's not terribly important. German nationalism emanated from Northern Germany, which was politically and culturally Protestant. The North German plains are culturally and economically distinct from high territories such as Bavaria and Austria. As recently as 1866 the Bavarians fought alongside the Austrians against the Prussians and their allies/clients, and had to be forced into the German union a few years later.

I think you overestimate the influence of the vatican on the election. Influence on the CSU, yes, but not so much on the vote of the people.
My hope is that the era of CSU-only reign is really over, not depending on the vatican´s action. We´ll see........

I'm not familiar with the details of the election, but I have seen mention of a "collapse" in CSU votes. Which makes me wonder. (I'm a deep-dyed cynic, but I go by the principle that one can never be too cynical about the Vatican.) You'll know more : was there such a collapse, and was there any surge in opposition support?

[ddt]

I´m just trying to get those lederhosen-wearing, weißbier-drinking weirdos mad enough that they´ll secede. I live about 10 miles from the border to Bavaria, and I constantly feel hardcore Catholicism breathing down my neck...

:D (of course)

When I moved to Germany, my mom - who wasn't too thrilled with the idea anyway, having lived through WW2 - worriedly asked if I wasn't going to live in Bavaria. I was happy to point out that Ulm lies on the right (i.e., the left) side of the Danube. :D

BTW, Ulm also has weissbier, and I quite like it :).

[Lonewulf]

CapelDodger has not disproved the evidence of current German nationalism. He even says, "German nationalism is very much a Protestant creation." He is just in denial as to the degree it still exists in Germany.

I'm glad you're here to educate us ignorant heathens as to the Word of your Gospel.

I am sure that you will bless us with the light of knowledge that comes only from the fingers of Cicero; it certainly doesn't seem to come from anywhere else, including facts.




I'll have to say, I find it interesting that you have a German Shepherd for your avatar. Maybe a hint? Perhaps you're really a German spy, intent on making Americans seem as arrogant and divisive as possible for your evil plans?

[CapelDodger]

As a small nitpick: Holland didn't have a mass immigration of Indonesians. Before WW2, Indonesians came here, generally speaking, as wives of retired civil servants. After WW2, some 4,000 Ambonese came over here because they had served in the Colonial Army and thus were seen by the Indonesians as collaborators - and there was the issue that Sukarno obviously wasn't intent on granting the Moluccans a form of independence in a federalized state. Mass immigration into Holland also came from the 60s onwards, with predominantly Turks and Moroccans, and for our colonial history, Surinams.

I stand corrected. And reminded of how long it is since I've visited Holland. My loss - you come for the dope, you stay for the Indonesian food ...

You're not really comparing the poster 'cicero' with Marcus Tullius?

I am, but not favourably.

He's not even worthy to shine Marcus' boots sandals when it comes to oratory skills.

Not even worth a capital letter. I'm affronted (on a deep level) by his choice of name, but I try to keep it in check. I take every opportunity to remind him that I know who and what Cicero was, of course.

It's good to see that all his strawmen have been decisively stricken down.

He comes ill-prepared to defend them in the forum. In fact, he comes ill-prepared generally.

How do you measure success? The length of his tenure has less to do with Kohl being a great Chancellor than with the ineptness of his adversaries - the heirs of Brandt and Schmidt rather quibbled among themselves then put up a decent alternative to Kohl - and his own survival skills. In measure of lasting effect on German politics, I'd take Willy Brandt any moment over Kohl. Brandt crafted his revolutionary Ostpolitiek himself. The reunification of Germany happened to Kohl, he foresaw it as much little as anyone.

I agree with you about Brandt, a man of serious substance. Kohl's success is mostly down to him not having enough influence to screw things up until unification fell into his lap (at which point he screwed up mightily).

Brandt's political legacy was sorely damaged by the GDR spy scandals, and Kohl came in when the tide was running his way - the Reagan-Thatcher era. So you may be assigning too much to the quibbling. Compared to the Labour Party meltdown over here it was a civilised debate about options.

[CapelDodger]

Are your Germans trying to start up the 30 Years War Again?:D

Since they're not allowed to invade Poland any more, what else can they do?

(Sorry to all, but I simply couldn't resist that :o.)

[Cicero]

I


Not even worth a capital letter. I'm affronted (on a deep level) by his choice of name, but I try to keep it in check. I take every opportunity to remind him that I know who and what Cicero was, of course.


He comes ill-prepared to defend them in the forum. In fact, he comes ill-prepared generally.


Just goes to show that one can never underestimate an unexpected benefit in the choice of chat handles.

If only your polemics were as developed as your grandiloquence.

[Georg]

I´m just trying to get those lederhosen-wearing, weißbier-drinking weirdos mad enough that they´ll secede. I live about 10 miles from the border to Bavaria, and I constantly feel hardcore Catholicism breathing down my neck...

:D (of course)


While I can understand that somehow, it does not make that much sense anymore, now that the absolute power of the CSU has been broken.
Please show some mercy! Without the influence of the other states, Bavaria will fall back in the dark ages!
Another point: If Bavaria would secede, Baden Würtemberg and Hessen would have to shoulder the Länderfinanzausgleich pretty much alone.......:D

[Georg]

This hasn't generally been the case for the region since the Reformation, but that's not terribly important. German nationalism emanated from Northern Germany, which was politically and culturally Protestant. The North German plains are culturally and economically distinct from high territories such as Bavaria and Austria. As recently as 1866 the Bavarians fought alongside the Austrians against the Prussians and their allies/clients, and had to be forced into the German union a few years later.


I was relating to your sentence:

Bavaria could easily be marginalised within Federal Germany, because of its Catholicism


which I understood to mean that this was still possible today, and since there are now as many catholics as there are protestants, I doubt that.
As a Bavarian I know a little bit about the history too. Heck, our minor hassle with the Prussians (nowadays it´s only jokes) has to come from somewhere....


I'm not familiar with the details of the election, but I have seen mention of a "collapse" in CSU votes. Which makes me wonder. (I'm a deep-dyed cynic, but I go by the principle that one can never be too cynical about the Vatican.) You'll know more : was there such a collapse, and was there any surge in opposition support?


The voter participation was about the same as the last time.
The reasons for the CSU debacle are manyfold, I´ll just name a few here:


People were not too happy with the new CSU leadership, which has had its part in the overthrow of former Ministerpräsident Stoiber.

The CSU was in a comfortable situation the election before, because they could play the "if we would be in the government in Berlin, everything would be better" card, while SPD/greens were governing there. Now they are in a coalition in Berlin and have to defend the coalitions politics.

A very strict anti-smoking law for pubs/restaurants. Yes, really. That was one of the most mentioned reasons.

Contradictions regarding the CSU politics in Berlin and Munich, which took away some credibility.

Not a really convincing campaign. One example: they had posters with the slogan: "Sommer, Sonne, Bayern, CSU", in English: "summer, sun, Bavaria, CSU". Even the average Bavarian is not dumb enough to fall for that.


A general feeling that it´s time for a change, a plausible reason after 46 years of the CSU governing alone.


For a hint how voters changed their vote compared to the last election, have a look here. (http://www.landtagswahl-bayern.uni-muenchen.de/cms/index.php?page=graphik-wanderung)


That´s it for the moment, I have to pretend to do some work now.

[CapelDodger]

Thanks, Georg, that makes things clearer. (My previous use of "Catholic" was simplistic, and I really didn't mean to imply that you lacked historical knowledge.)

I find the smoking ban an entirely credible vote-loser, but it does sound as if the current CSU leadership is not up to the job. If the Vatican had cared, of course, they could have sent in a crack team of Jesuits to sort them out :). More "Heaven and Hell" and less "summer and sun" might have done the trick.

[Cicero]

Only two years ago, Spiegel reported a disturbing increase in the rise of anti-Semitism.

***.."Right-wing adolescents and young Muslims are displaying levels of anti-Semitism that were long considered unthinkable in Germany. At many German schools, the word "Jew" is becoming an insult again. German politicians don't seem to know how to respond."..***

***.."In October, several adolescents in Parey, a town in Germany's Saxony-Anhalt region, forced their 16-year-old classmate to walk across the school yard wearing a large sign during lunch break. The sign read: "In this town I'm the biggest swine / Because of the Jewish friends of mine." It's a phrase from the Nazi era, used to humiliate people with Jewish friends."..***

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,453402,00.html

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a384/themarbleintheoatmeal/smilies/watchdrama8jm.gif

[Lonewulf]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a384/themarbleintheoatmeal/smilies/watchdrama8jm.gif

I'll just use this emoticon as I watch you get owned by people who know Germany more than you think you do.

[Cicero]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a384/themarbleintheoatmeal/smilies/watchdrama8jm.gif

I'll just use this emoticon as I watch you get owned by people who know Germany more than you think you do.

I didn't write the article. Germans in Germany researched the
information and reported it.

Maybe we need a Welshman's perspective on this?

[Lonewulf]

I didn't write the article. Germans in Germany researched the
information and reported it.

So... because "right-wing adolescents" and "young Muslims" are doing something... without approval of the political figures in power... this is to demonstrate nationalism?

Okay. Can you please explain your conclusion for those of us too slow to understand your Gospel?

[mrbaracuda]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a384/themarbleintheoatmeal/smilies/watchdrama8jm.gif

[Cicero]

So... because "right-wing adolescents" and "young Muslims" are doing something... without approval of the political figures in power... this is to demonstrate nationalism?

Okay. Can you please explain your conclusion for those of us too slow to understand your Gospel?

The Christian Democrat Party (CDU) in Berlin's parliament is complaining that the government is slow to respond to the problem. Obviously the rise in anti-Semitism in Germany over the last decade is indicative of a government seemingly indifferent to this alarming trend.

[Lonewulf]

Ah, I see. It's not about drawing conclusions from the facts, but instead attempting to force the facts to fit your already-drawn conclusions.

As i thought.

[Cicero]

Ah, I see. It's not about drawing conclusions from the facts, but instead attempting to force the facts to fit your already-drawn conclusions.

As i thought.

You characterize anti-Semitic acts committed by right-wing adolescents and young Muslims as "something." Not surprisng you are as dismissive of the lack of the German government to take steps to quell these activites as you are about what these people are doing to Jews.

[mrbaracuda]

The Christian Democrat Party (CDU) in Berlin's parliament is complaining that the government is slow to respond to the problem. Obviously the rise in anti-Semitism in Germany over the last decade is indicative of a government seemingly indifferent to this alarming trend.

Maybe you're interested in this article. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404781604&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[Lonewulf]

You characterize anti-Semitic acts committed by right-wing adolescents and young Muslims as "something."Yeah, I mean, I don't go around judging an ENTIRE COUNTRY by what some of its citizens do.

Heaven forbid!

Not surprisng you are as dismissive of the lack of the German government to take steps to quell these activites as you are about what these people are doing to Jews.

Yawn.

[Darth Rotor]

Mr baracuda, that made me grin.

Germany bans Hizbullah Television

Oriana Fallaci smiled, somewhere. ;)

DR

[Cicero]

Maybe you're interested in this article. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404781604&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Fascinating. So the German government has been aware of the latest wave of anti-Semitic messages flooding the country and are just now taking action.


***.."Alexander Ritzmann, a Hizbullah expert and senior fellow at the European Foundation for Democracy, has criticized Germany's lenient policies toward the organization. He noted that France pulled the plug on Al-Manar's operations in 2004.

"Al-Manar TV radicalizes Muslims in Germany and whips up hatred against Americans, Jews and Israelis. Prohibition of the station is therefore an important step in the fight against extremism. As a next step, the federal government should ensure that Al-Manar is no longer broadcast to Europe via the Arabsat and Nilsat satellites. Further, the anti-Jewish and anti-Western terrorist organization Hizbullah, to which the TV station Al-Manar belongs, should also be prohibited for endangering Germany's internal security," Ritzmann told the Post."..***

I guess Lonewulf will commend his government for taking this action?

[Darth Rotor]

Fascinating. So the German government has been aware of the latest wave of anti-Semitic messages flooding the country and are just now taking action.
If I put on my Information Warfare hat, what the Germans are doing is a move in the battle of images and airwaves. In 4GW, not so clear. We shall see if they are challenged on it. I doubt most Germans care for Hizbullah.
I guess Lonewulf will commend his government for taking this action?
He may or may not, but I like what they are doing, if not completely their reason for doing so.

Also, Cicero, I'll point out to you that Lonewulf is originally from Texas. He recently moved to Germany. Not sure if the US government is doing anything about it, but I am sure Governor Rick Perry is doing bloody eff all about it.

DR

[Lonewulf]

Also, Cicero, I'll point out to you that Lonewulf is originally from Texas. He recently moved to Germany. Not sure if the US government is doing anything about it, but I am sure Governor Rick Perry is doing bloody eff all about it.

I'll be moving back to Texas shortly, though, to study at one of the University of Texas facilities.

I'll have to add that that's a good shortened version; I was born in Germany originally, though, under parents that were overseas. I remember most of my childhood in other locations; from New Jersey to Alabama to Indiana. Lived for quite a while in Korea, and only recently been in Texas for a year.

I consider myself more of a man of the world, though. :)


I guess Lonewulf will commend his government for taking this action? Which action? Banning Hizbullah?

Why shouldn't I?

[Cicero]

If I put on my Information Warfare hat, what the Germans are doing is a move in the battle of images and airwaves. In 4GW, not so clear. We shall see if they are challenged on it. I doubt most Germans care for Hizbullah.

He may or may not, but I like what they are doing, if not completely their reason for doing so.

Also, Cicero, I'll point out to you that Lonewulf is originally from Texas. He recently moved to Germany. Not sure if the US government is doing anything about it, but I am sure Governor Rick Perry is doing bloody eff all about it.

DR


I guess one should not confuse the location identification with actual nationality.

mrbaracuda (an actual German living in Germany for most of his life?) seems to be hip to what is going on about the increase in anti-Semitism in his country and concerned about what is being done about it.

[Lonewulf]

I guess one should not confuse the location identification with actual nationality.You think? After all, Mark Twain visited Germany, and he was no German.

mrbaracuda (an actual German living in Germany for most of his life?) seems to be hip to what is going on about the increase in anti-Semitism in his country and concerned about what is being done about it.Shouldn't you be calling him a Nazi? After all, didn't you suggest that Germany was just full of evil nationalist Nazis? I remember you suggesting something similar earlier...

[Gurdur]

I guess one should not confuse the location identification with actual nationality.


Well, d'oh. I'm not a German national either, but I live in Germany.

mrbaracuda (an actual German living in Germany for most of his life?) seems to be hip to what is going on about the increase in anti-Semitism in his country and concerned about what is being done about it.


I love the way you ignore 90% of the thread, Cicero, and you only pay attention to what reinforces your prejudices. Mrbaracuda is merely pushing his own (very confused) agenda; but I love how you ignore Chaos and Georg -- both Germans, but who say what you don't want to hear -- and how you ignore ddt, Lonewolf and myself, non-Germans who know Germany well (I've lived here 15 years now). One note of caution: don't depend on mrbaracuda, he contradicts himself often.

[Oliver]

Mrbaracuda is merely pushing his own (very confused) agenda; One note of caution: don't depend on mrbaracuda, he contradicts himself often.


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a384/themarbleintheoatmeal/smilies/watchdrama8jm.gif

[mrbaracuda]

I guess one should not confuse the location identification with actual nationality.

mrbaracuda (an actual German living in Germany for most of his life?) seems to be hip to what is going on about the increase in anti-Semitism in his country and concerned about what is being done about it.

Born-and-bred! :cool:
I even had Sauerkraut tonight. That's how German I am! :D

Which action? Banning Hizbullah?

You mean, uh, banning their TV station from, uh.. hotel rooms and official places?! Or have I overlooked something?

Mr baracuda, that made me grin.

Germany bans Hizbullah Television

Oriana Fallaci smiled, somewhere. ;)

DR

I'm afraid we're not too good about this whole War on Terror thing. :(

[ddt]

I didn't write the article. Germans in Germany researched the
information and reported it.
But you didn't read it either, ostensibly. The article is very light on hard facts. It's called "Anti-semitism at German schools", but it better be called "Anti-semitism at Berlin schools" as that's the only Land that's given numbers of. And still then, 62 incidents this year compared to 39 previous year isn't very much to show a trend - give at least five consecutive years, these numbers can vary wildly.

Note also the other two anecdotes are (also) from former East Germany.

As horrible as the incidents reported are, this "research" is below par for Der Spiegel, and definitely does not warrant the conclusion in the title.

[Cicero]

You think? After all, Mark Twain visited Germany, and he was no German.

Shouldn't you be calling him a Nazi? After all, didn't you suggest that Germany was just full of evil nationalist Nazis? I remember you suggesting something similar earlier...

I wasn't aware that Samuel Clemens was posting on the internet back in the 19th century? Since he was a famous American and the posters on JREF are for the most part anonimous, your observation is without merit.

Hell, you couldn't find a NAZI after the war ended in 45. What makes you think you could find any German admitting to being one today?

[Cicero]

But you didn't read it either, ostensibly. The article is very light on hard facts. It's called "Anti-semitism at German schools", but it better be called "Anti-semitism at Berlin schools" as that's the only Land that's given numbers of. And still then, 62 incidents this year compared to 39 previous year isn't very much to show a trend - give at least five consecutive years, these numbers can vary wildly.

Note also the other two anecdotes are (also) from former East Germany.

As horrible as the incidents reported are, this "research" is below par for Der Spiegel, and definitely does not warrant the conclusion in the title.

I guess you were not alive when the Berlin Wall was up. Both Steglitz-Zehlendorf and Kreuzberg were in West Berlin, and still are today. But if stories about anti-Semitism concern the former East Germany, they don't count? It's been nearly 20 years since the Wall came down. When do you guys start to consider yourselves as one nation?

I guess any racism in the American South doesn't count today because they were on the side of the Confederacy over 140 years ago?

[Georg]

Thanks, Georg, that makes things clearer. (My previous use of "Catholic" was simplistic, and I really didn't mean to imply that you lacked historical knowledge.)


No problem, CapelDodger. Compared to you I probably do lack historical knowledge. I´m happy already if you acknowledge that I´m not completely uneducated on those matters :) .


I find the smoking ban an entirely credible vote-loser, but it does sound as if the current CSU leadership is not up to the job. If the Vatican had cared, of course, they could have sent in a crack team of Jesuits to sort them out :). More "Heaven and Hell" and less "summer and sun" might have done the trick.



After the election fiasco, the leadership already changed again. Mr. Seehofer, who is now leading the party, is known to have cheated on his wife, and as a result, has a extramarital child (what a surprise, a member of a christian conservative party not living up to the standard they promote. Shocking, isn´t it?), something I very much doubt the vatican appreciates :D.

[ddt]

I guess you were not alive when the Berlin Wall was up.
You could have checked my birthdate in my profile to see I was.


Both Steglitz-Zehlendorf and Kreuzberg were in West Berlin, and still are today.
I nowhere said they were in the former Eastern part of Berlin.


But if stories about anti-Semitism concern the former East Germany, they don't count? It's been nearly 20 years since the Wall came down. When do you guys start to consider yourselves as one nation?
As to the "you guys" - you may have noted I'm not a German myself. Just goes to the general (in)accuracy of your statements, as this has been mentioned only a handful of posts above.

And again, I didn't say Ossiland doesn't count. But if the author were serious about his title, he would have shown statistics from around the country showing it. As it is, the article suggests more a title like "there is anti-semitism in Ossiland and Berlin; no anti-semitism in Wessiland". So, come up with some better sources. Maybe the German Bureau of Statistics or the Zentralrat der Juden can provide you with something more substantial? Don't be afraid to cite sources in German; everyone else now participating in this thread can read it (can you?).


I guess any racism in the American South doesn't count today because they were on the side of the Confederacy over 140 years ago?
Rosa Parks' busride was about a century after the Civil War. Check out what the Southern Poverty Law Center documents about today. 20 years really isn't that long. That is, if there is a substantial difference in anti-semitic tendencies between Ossiland and Wessiland - a claim I'm much more likely to believe than that there's an overall rise in anti-semitism as you claim is happening, only supported by one alarmist piece in Der Spiegel. But again, come with hard facts.

BTW, I'm not condoning in any way any form or expression of anti-semitism or racism etc.

(Terms "Ossiland" and "Wessiland" used to save on typing)

[Lonewulf]

I wasn't aware that Samuel Clemens was posting on the internet back in the 19th century? Since he was a famous American and the posters on JREF are for the most part anonimous, your observation is without merit.

Hell, you couldn't find a NAZI after the war ended in 45. What makes you think you could find any German admitting to being one today?

Of course, you wouldn't find any admitting to being one. But your suggestion is that they aren't admitting it, isn't it?