Man, Alec Jones Is Not Even Hiding It.. [Archive] - Page 2

Tin Foil Timothy

1st December 2008, 07:59 PM

From http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4241554&postcount=206

It's not fair on the forum to take this over to the Mumbai thread so I bring it back here where it belongs

we have .....

:dl:
I love the way people have provided tons of links to Alex Jones's blatently Anti Semitic statments, but Timmy still denies they are Anti Semitic.
And still another case of how "Skeptic' and "Skeptical" does not mean what a lot of woos thinks it means.

So tons of links? Hmmmm? Well I looked at every page in this thread and I found ONE LINK. Here's the link http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

So dudalb, who can hardly claim ignorance as it's his thread, has been caught lying. There is NOT tons of links. That is complete BS.

So let's look at that link. The only phrase that is Jewish centric is "jewish Arrogance" - Quite frankly that's an extremely lame reason to label someone a racist and a person that hates or dislikes Jews. Many naionalities/ethnicities have attributes. For example British "stiff upper lip" - German "efficiancy", Scandanavian "Drunkenness" and so on.

And that article is is commenting on Michael Ledeen who was founder of JINSA. Why the ***** should America have a Jewish institute for it's National Security Affairs? WTF is that all about? If anything such an organization is more racist than anything Alex Jones has ever come out with.

You don't see a French institute looking after the National Security Affairs of Japan, or a Chinese Institute looking after the National Security Affairs of Denmark.

So this whole thread is BS isn't it? The thread starter dudabl has not only made a false accusation of racism about Alex Jones, he/she has also lied about the contents of the thread by claiming there are tons of links when in reality there is just one, which is compeltey stretching any rational links to racism

This is not a personal attack, this is just an observation.

And nonsense posts like the one by Doctor Evil above are extremely tacky, crass attempts to derail the thread.

And I have to say the frequency of childish personal attacks one encounters here is very sad indeed. It's proof of how weak the arguments of those throwing them out actually are. By the looks of his header, James Randi wants a place to discuss in a friendly and lively way. I don't think he meant insultive and immature.

But having said all that I still await links of Alex Jones' racism.

Swearing must be entirely masked in the public sections of the forum.

MarkCorrigan

1st December 2008, 08:31 PM

Yo, TFT, did you...I don't know, trip over my post in the dark or something?

No? Well...you could have at least addressed it and told me why my girlfriend's opinion is invalid rather than totally ignoring it.

gtc

1st December 2008, 08:48 PM

Why are you getting so het up about this TFT.

You have admitted that both you and Alex Jones have a negative opinion of Jewish people simply because they are Jewish and you have admitted that Alex Jones believes that there is a secret cabal of exclusively Jewish origin 'with overwhelming control in some places'.

And yet you baulk at the title.

Why is that?

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 08:46 AM

Why are you getting so het up about this TFT.

You have admitted that both you and Alex Jones have a negative opinion of Jewish people simply because they are Jewish

Why are you lying?

I have admitted no such thing. And as I have no negative view of anyone because of their ethnicity/race/nationality/etc that's not a view I would ever put forward.

Alex Jones as far as I can see hasn't admitted such either.

and you have admitted that Alex Jones believes that there is a secret cabal of exclusively Jewish origin 'with overwhelming control in some places'.

And yet you baulk at the title.

Why is that?

Alex Jones belief of, as you put it, "a secret cabal of exclusively Jewish origin 'with overwhelming control in some places'." doesn't make him someone who hates/dislikes people for simply being Jewish

And I'm not getting het up at all. I'm just exposing the lies put forward by the premise of this thread.

But instead of propagating more offensive false accusations of racism without evidence you could of course post some links to infowars where Alex Jones is showing hatred or dislike of people for simply being Jewish.

You can call Alex Jones racist and you can call me racist as many times as you like. But without evidence you, dudalb and others making those silly claims are just frauds.

Anyone worried about their credibility could just post links or admit their claims were BS. This is the problem with a forum isn't it? People can call you out. And now they have you people are too cowardly to pony up and choose instead to blatantly lie. I guess that's what we come to expect when people are safe behind a computer monitor.

Trojan_Jockey

2nd December 2008, 09:40 AM

Why are you lying?

I have admitted no such thing. And as I have no negative view of anyone because of their ethnicity/race/nationality/etc that's not a view I would ever put forward.

Alex Jones as far as I can see hasn't admitted such either.

Alex Jones belief of, as you put it, "a secret cabal of exclusively Jewish origin 'with overwhelming control in some places'." doesn't make him someone who hates/dislikes people for simply being Jewish

And I'm not getting het up at all. I'm just exposing the lies put forward by the premise of this thread.

But instead of propagating more offensive false accusations of racism without evidence you could of course post some links to infowars where Alex Jones is showing hatred or dislike of people for simply being Jewish.

You can call Alex Jones racist and you can call me racist as many times as you like. But without evidence you, dudalb and others making those silly claims are just frauds.

Anyone worried about their credibility could just post links or admit their claims were BS. This is the problem with a forum isn't it? People can call you out. And now they have you people are too cowardly to pony up and choose instead to blatantly lie. I guess that's what we come to expect when people are safe behind a computer monitor.

I do believe Hitler thought that one of the biggest problems with the Jews is that they were loyal to interests of Jews first and foremost, rather than being loyal to Germany.

They'll be calling Hitler a racist next.

Chaos

2nd December 2008, 11:54 AM

gtc

2nd December 2008, 02:56 PM

Anyone worried about their credibility could just post links or admit their claims were BS. This is the problem with a forum isn't it? People can call you out. And now they have you people are too cowardly to pony up and choose instead to blatantly lie. I guess that's what we come to expect when people are safe behind a computer monitor.

Answer me this.

Given that you deny that links have been posted in this thread, when they have been, why should I post them again? Given that you deny the statements that you have made, despite them being on display in this very thread, why should I quote them again? Given that you deny the definition of racism, why should I bother explaining again why you and Alex Jones are both making racist statements?

gtc

2nd December 2008, 03:02 PM

I do believe Hitler thought that one of the biggest problems with the Jews is that they were loyal to interests of Jews first and foremost, rather than being loyal to Germany.

They'll be calling Hitler a racist next.

The phrase 'sadly and horribly ironic' doesn't nearly begin to describe the feeling I get when I compare what the average Jew contributed to Germany and the destruction that Hitler brought.

However, deeply humourous does accurately describe what I feel when I compare the contribution Alex Jones and his followers have made to America with the contributions made by the Jewish government officials they attack.

dudalb

2nd December 2008, 03:51 PM

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 05:28 PM

Answer me this.

Given that you deny that links have been posted in this thread, when they have been, why should I post them again? Given that you deny the statements that you have made, despite them being on display in this very thread, why should I quote them again? Given that you deny the definition of racism, why should I bother explaining again why you and Alex Jones are both making racist statements?

You're lying yet again.

I haven't denied the links. Apparently according to dudalb their were, I quote tons of links, but I found the one link and posted it again ( my penultimate post above ). I even commented on it.

I haven't denied any statements I have made. I actually showed you to be lying about one of my statements. Again. And it's here ...

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4243491&postcount=93

You've been exposed as lying now a few times. And that's not a personal attack, it's a simple observation of fact.

And as to a definition of Racism. I'm not insulting the victims of real racism by following some mutant definition created to stifle political criticism. That crap got old years ago.

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 05:33 PM

Alex Jones's latest attempts to prove that the Mossad was behind the Mumbai attacks just adds more evidence to the huge pile of evidence that Jones has, at a minimum,
"Issues" with the Jews.
And it maybe the most ludricous "evidence" that Jones has presented yet.

I'm surprised you dare enter this thread again. Your thread has been proven to be a fake. ONE link to infowars which mentions 'Jewish Arrogance' is hardly the 'tons of links' you easily proclaimed before and as I easily pointed out is no proof of someone hating or disliking people for being Jewish. You too have been exposed for lying. No rational person would accept ONE link as 'tons' . you're argument is fraudulent.

But yet again, if you have tons of links pointing to Alex Jones hating/disliking people for being Jewish then post them. It would be so easy to regain a bit of credibility to better the current score of zero.

And notice you're argument is losing allies. People don't want to be associated with fraudulent claims.

I await a shower of links. I have my link umbrella waiting. :)

gtc

2nd December 2008, 06:06 PM

And notice you're argument is losing allies.

Actually, its more likely that people are just bored.

As far as anti-semitic views go, yours aren't too dangerous. Not like that Smeggy on that other forum who posts those anti-semitic cartoons. His views are much more despicable.

sleeplessdwarf

2nd December 2008, 06:26 PM

MarkCorrigan

2nd December 2008, 06:27 PM

Alex Jones belief of, as you put it, "a secret cabal of exclusively Jewish origin 'with overwhelming control in some places'." doesn't make him someone who hates/dislikes people for simply being Jewish

Very very true.

If I stated I thought that the Americans ruled the world it wouldn't indicate I believed Americans are scum.

ON IT'S OWN.

Fact is it isn't the statement itself that strongly suggests Alex has a bit of a thing for the "Jews" (and not in a good way). It's the fact he repeats this time and time again, over and over, without evidence, for EVERYTHING.

If he had said that maybe Mossad did 9/11 then no, wouldn't make him anti-semetic. It would make him a nutter, but not a racist nutter.

If you blame absolutely EVERYTHING on Mossad and/or the Jews it has to be questioned WHY. WHY constantly attack them with absolutely zero provocation?

Why accuse Jews of having divided loyalties? Why make up huge amounts of utter nonsense about Jews if you don't have a problem with them? I can understand the CT mindset of "someone" being behind it. A secretive cabal who run the world. A group of shadowy suits plotting who wins the world cup, super bowl and the next US election. This, while being totally insane, I can grasp.

What I don't get is continually playing on the fears of the world by levelling all accusations against a specific group of people with no evidence. Now, I hear you cry "but the media always blames Muslims!" which, indeed, is true. What is not true however, is that this is always without evidence, and it certainly isn't without precedent. Islamic extremists have, continually over the past decade and to a lesser extent beforehand as well, been using terror tactics, including suicide bombings, roadside bombs and so on, in order to destroy those they see as unfit. Now, this isn't all muslims, and indeed, I am one of those who can be (and has been) looked upon as defending terrorists when I ask WHY these extremists target certain groups, or why they attack anyone at all. I have certainly been viewed with suspicion for defending Islam itself (no, I am not a Muslim) by stating that it is no more or less bloodtirsty than most religions, and that it really is a tiny section of the Islamic world that carries any resentment deep enough to do this. Incidentally, and totally off topic, Islamic extremism is WAY down on the number of suicide bombings commited by group, with the Tamil Tigers being top. Given that Mossad has never knowingly commited any action of aggression outsie of its own borders, aside from political assassinations, why would anyone blame them?

Given that the 9/11 attacks in no way aided Israel, and indeed, the removal of Iraq as another Islamic state has actually aided the growth of Iran, which in the long run might hurt Israel, why blame the Jews?

Given that Mossad haven't ever done anything like this, why blame the Jews?

Blaming any group for being behind attacks is not racist. Constantly blaming them without evidence or precedent is, at best, more than a little suspect.

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 06:39 PM

Tin Foil, you may be able to get away with dismissing a few for lying, but if you continue to act as if Jones is innocent of the charge then you know you are doing the same.

Only the last hour of his show is on video so unless there are people who record all of his audio shows, they can not provide the links you ask for. Since most here have never sat through many of his radio shows you know that they can not provide the links. However, to lump all the claims into the "lie" basket and pretend that you are not lying when you act dumbfounded at such claims makes you equal to those you are going off on. Some people here have listened to many of his shows and he does in fact spout the same anti-jew garbage that the others do.

How am I lying? This thread said ....

Man, Alec Jones Is Not Even Hiding It..
His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

I simply asked for links to infowars that show Alex Jones hates/dislikes people simply for being Jewish.

I don't need to remind you that in our society people are innocent until proven guilty. I asked for the evidence. dudalb said there were 'tons of links'. I found one, which didn't prove Alex Jones to hate/dislike people for being Jewish.

You obviously didn't read the post here where I stated that I would be first in line to call Alex Jones a racist if there was evidence.

Alex Jones may hate/dislike Jews. And if he does then I have no problem with anyone starting a thread stating such and condemning for it. As long as the thread contains evidence. Otherwise such a thread is fake. this thread is, until evidence is shown, fake.

And there are people, like dudalb and gtc who have been proved to be lying in order to fake up their false argument further.

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 06:56 PM

Why accuse Jews of having divided loyalties? Why make up huge amounts of utter nonsense about Jews if you don't have a problem with them?

Given that the 9/11 attacks in no way aided Israel, and indeed, the removal of Iraq as another Islamic state has actually aided the growth of Iran, which in the long run might hurt Israel, why blame the Jews?

Given that Mossad haven't ever done anything like this, why blame the Jews?

Blaming any group for being behind attacks is not racist. Constantly blaming them without evidence or precedent is, at best, more than a little suspect.

Your post points out a recurring problem with the asrguments of those throwing out the anti-semitic label.

"The Jews"

Now the phrase "The Jews" to any rational person means all Jews. just as The French, or The Americans, or The Germans means all of the people of that group.

Alex Jones hasn't, as far as I can see, has blamed "The Jews" for anything.

He's blamed a group of people who are Jewish for certain events and agendas. his accusations may or may not be nutty, but they are not as they stand based upon a hatred or dislike for people simply for being Jewish.

Alex Jones didn't blame "The Jews" for having divided loyalties, he blamed, quote "key government figures" for having divided loyalties. This was spun out by those here who rely upon lies to "All Jews in government" but that's the kind of underhand behavior I've come to expect from some here.

But all the same Alex Jones has not Blamed ALL Jews for anything.

Of course it's still possible that Alex Jones hates Jews. But goddamn show us some evidence or you make yourself look a fraud. And not only a fraud but offensive.

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 07:08 PM

Actually, its more likely that people are just bored.

Of course they aren't. People here are fanatical forum cyber-warriors. They obviously love to wade in with pitch forks and torches whenever they get a chance. 'bored' is a convenient get out clause when you've lost the argument and you're arguments have been proved as untruths.

As far as anti-semitic views go, yours aren't too dangerous. Not like that Smeggy on that other forum who posts those anti-semitic cartoons. His views are much more despicable.

Does this forum allow members to make offensive false accusations against other members repeatedly by lying?

You are lying yet again gtc. In fact the continued accusations of me being racist despite my proving you as a liar time and time again is pure troll behavior

Here's just one example of gtc lying in order to accuse me of racism ...

... if you head over to the CT section you will see that TFT admits that he thinks that every Jew outside of Israel has divided loyalty to Israel.

His views are definitely anti-semitic.

what I actually said was ...

Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't

Finding someone odd for not showing loyalty for their homeland Israel might seem strange to a Jewish person who doesn't care for Israel, but it in no way accuses "every Jew outside of Israel" having divided loyalty to Israel. And it is certainly no indication of racism.

And further I was actually defending Jewish people for having a loyalty to Israel if they so wished.

So gtc you have been proved a liar. Not a personal attack but an observation

but you're doing you best to troll and bait aren't you?

And the mods told you that action would be taken on members continuing to accuse me of being that person on another forum. Not directly accusing me isn't fooling anyone.

MarkCorrigan

2nd December 2008, 07:12 PM

Your post points out a recurring problem with the asrguments of those throwing out the anti-semitic label.

"The Jews"

Now the phrase "The Jews" to any rational person means all Jews. just as The French, or The Americans, or The Germans means all of the people of that group.

Alex Jones hasn't, as far as I can see, has blamed "The Jews" for anything.

He's blamed a group of people who are Jewish for certain events and agendas. his accusations may or may not be nutty, but they are not as they stand based upon a hatred or dislike for people simply for being Jewish.

Alex Jones didn't blame "The Jews" for having divided loyalties, he blamed, quote "key government figures" for having divided loyalties. This was spun out by those here who rely upon lies to "All Jews in government" but that's the kind of underhand behavior I've come to expect from some here.

But all the same Alex Jones has not Blamed ALL Jews for anything.

Of course it's still possible that Alex Jones hates Jews. But goddamn show us some evidence or you make yourself look a fraud. And not only a fraud but offensive.

Ok Mr Semantics.

Replace every mention of "the jews" refering to Alex Jones' ramblings with Mossad.

Why blame Mossad for anything and everything?

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 07:20 PM

Ok Mr Semantics.

Well as I've shown the semantics make all the difference don't they? They make all the difference as to whether the statements are racist or not

Replace every mention of "the jews" refering to Alex Jones' ramblings with Mossad.

Why blame Mossad for anything and everything?

I'm actually glad you brought that up because the 'Mossad' isn't "The Jews'. So once again while it might show a nutty obsession for the Mossad it's not racist.

Until Alex Jones exposes a prejudice for people simply for being Jewish then he's not a racist. A nutjob, a CT merchant, etc,etc,. but NOT a racist.

And the fact remains that this thread is a fake.

MarkCorrigan

2nd December 2008, 07:27 PM

Well as I've shown the semantics make all the difference don't they? They make all the difference as to whether the statements are racist or not

I'm actually glad you brought that up because the 'Mossad' isn't "The Jews'. So once again while it might show a nutty obsession for the Mossad it's not racist.

Until Alex Jones exposes a prejudice for people simply for being Jewish then he's not a racist. A nutjob, a CT merchant, etc,etc,. but NOT a racist.

And the fact remains that this thread is a fake.

Ok, I'm going to try again.

I understand what you are saying, so please try to answer my question, ok? I'm going to be polite, as I have been all this time (I notice you ignored my girlfriend's opinion though) and I expect the same from you. I also expect you to actually answer my questions.

1. Are Mossad all, if not religious then "ethnic" jews. Yes or no?

2. Aside from Anti-Semitism, give me any reasons you can think of to reflexively blame Mossad for any and all terror strikes with no evidence and no precedent.

gtc

2nd December 2008, 08:21 PM

Of course they aren't. People here are fanatical forum cyber-warriors. They obviously love to wade in with pitch forks and torches whenever they get a chance. 'bored' is a convenient get out clause when you've lost the argument and you're arguments have been proved as untruths.

Fanatical forum cyber-warriors? Do you think GIYUS pays us to pick on people like you?

Does this forum allow members to make offensive false accusations against other members repeatedly by lying?

Because you have called me a liar repeatedly, then I'd say the evidence suggests that false accusations against other members are allowed.

You are lying yet again gtc. In fact the continued accusations of me being racist despite my proving you as a liar time and time again is pure troll behavior

Where is this proof you keep mentioning?

Finding someone odd for not showing loyalty for their homeland Israel might seem strange to a Jewish person who doesn't care for Israel, but it in no way accuses "every Jew outside of Israel" having divided loyalty to Israel. And it is certainly no indication of racism.

You have suggested repeatedly that every Jew in the world, irrespective of what country they live in has at best dual loyalty to Israel.

You did it again in this post where you compared the loyalty that Jews have to Israel to the loyalty that Americans have for America:

In a similar way I'd find it odd if an American didn't have loyalty to America, and equally for any other country.

And further I was actually defending Jewish people for having a loyalty to Israel if they so wished.

The assumption that all Jews have a loyalty to Israel is racist. No matter whether you might want to suggest that you defend it. Of course, you first mentioned your view that all Jews are loyal to Israel when you were defending Alex Jones' suggestion that all Jews in the American government are disloyal to America because of their loyalty to Israel so you can hardly argue now that you think it is OK for all Jews to be loyal to Israel.

And the mods told you that action would be taken on members continuing to accuse me of being that person on another forum.Not directly accusing me isn't fooling anyone.

I am not accussing you of being someone else on another forum. I find the suggestion outrageous. I am glad you are not Smeggy because it lets me say how disgusted I am with his views and what a vile person he must be for holding such views. I only mention this person as an example of someone who holds anti-semitic views that are worse than yours. I would have mentioned MaGZ but I didn't want to be seen to be launching a personal attack on someone who is a member of this forum. On the other hand, I am entirely free to say what a bigot that Smeggy is.

gtc

2nd December 2008, 08:31 PM

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 08:50 PM

Because you have called me a liar repeatedly, then I'd say the evidence suggests that false accusations against other members are allowed.

Where is this proof you keep mentioning?

Calling you a liar is a factual observation. the proof, yet again, lies below in bold, as well as all the other times I have proven it. Stop fillibusting in order to derail and divert.

You have suggested repeatedly that every Jew in the world, irrespective of what country they live in has at best dual loyalty to Israel.

I did nothing of the sort and you know it. You are twisting my words for the intention of repeated trolling and baiting

The assumption that all Jews have a loyalty to Israel is racist.

In accordance with your lies I haven't assumed "all jews"

I am not accussing you of being someone else on another forum. I find the suggestion outrageous. I am glad you are not Smeggy because it lets me say how disgusted I am with his views and what a vile person he must be for holding such views. I only mention this person as an example of someone who holds anti-semitic views that are worse than yours. I would have mentioned MaGZ but I didn't want to be seen to be launching a personal attack on someone who is a member of this forum. On the other hand, I am entirely free to say what a bigot that Smeggy is.

Yet I am not anti-semitic and there's no evidence for it. The fact you have to twist my words and lie about what I have supposed to have said just proves you are trolling and baiting.

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 08:54 PM

TFT,

Can you explain why you think that Mark Corrigan's girlfriend has loyalty to Israel simply because of her race?

Do you think that her loyalty to Israel should preclude her from taking a position in the UK government (presuming that is her country)?

Once you have explained that maybe you could explain why Alex Jones believing that a secret cabal of Jews exerts enough covert influence over the events of the world to start wars and fake terrorist attacks isn't anti-semitic? Given that Alex Jones also beleives that this cabal is appointed by the leaders of the one country in the world to which all the other Jews are secretly loyal.

The ball is in your court. I'm not dancing to your baiting tune, so you can ignore the original premise of this thread. You provide links that shows Alex Jones is hateful/ disliking people for simply being Jewish. And can you explain why you repeatedly ignore this request?

And can you also explain why you repeatedly lie about what I have said on this forum. Especially when I have repeatedly exposed those lies.

gtc

2nd December 2008, 09:28 PM

OK.

Last post on this topic.

Let's summarise this for those too bored to keep up.

This is from Infowars (http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm):

The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:

This is what TFT wrote about that:

So let's look at that link. The only phrase that is Jewish centric is "jewish Arrogance" - Quite frankly that's an extremely lame reason to label someone a racist and a person that hates or dislikes Jews. Many naionalities/ethnicities have attributes. For example British "stiff upper lip" - German "efficiancy", Scandanavian "Drunkenness" and so on.

So the arrogance is an attribute of the Jews like efficiency among the Germans and drunkeness among Scandanavians (drunkeness?).

Earlier Brainster wrote this:

Here's a clip from Alex Jones (http://theinfounderground.com/archives/TiU%20Radio%2024th%20Nov%2008%20-%20Finally%20Alex%20Jones%20Finally.mp3) (MP3 File) that was apparently used in an Irish radio show:

Starting about 5:30 into the clip:

I mean, it was one thing with the last administration, and I was hoping it was a fluke and was gonna stop, but I mean, come on folks! Every key person in the Bush Administration, and now this new administration, just so happen to be the sons and daughters of the founders of Israel and Mossad chiefs and they're openly not even really US citizens, and they're openly are at the head of the table in anti-gun operations in the US?

And I wrote this:

This is simply not true. Evidence has been presented that Alex Jones has been questioning officials' loyalty to America on the basis of their race. By wrongly claiming that all the Jews are actually dual citizens of Israel and hence have divided loyalty. They are not being criticised for any actions that they have done because they have done no actions.

To which the response was:

Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't

And later:

He's not criticizing a race of people. He's criticising those in the US Adminstration who he thinks are more loyal to Israel than the US

and:

What's wrong with divided loyalties anyway? If an American settled in, say, France why shouldn't they still have loyalty to America.

and most tellingly:

In a similar way I'd find it odd if an American didn't have loyalty to America, and equally for any other country.

I think the implication is quite clear.

Every Jew, everywhere owes loyalty to Israel. If they are not currently living in Israel then they have dual loyalty to their own country and to Israel. If they live in Sweden, they may display drunken loyalty. If they are Germans that loyalty will be displayed efficiently and British Jews won't be too showy about their divided loyalties.

Foolmewunz

2nd December 2008, 09:45 PM

Walter Bellhaven

2nd December 2008, 10:00 PM

I listen to his show all the time, and no, he's not one iota racist or anti-semetic.

Tin Foil Timothy

2nd December 2008, 10:31 PM

So we have these two points of view....

On the one hand, there are those of us, who following Dudalb's position think that Alex Jones is slipping into anti-semitic rhetoric of late. To read the consensus, his nomination of Mossad - with no reason whatsoever - is deemed one such indication. His quoting snippets and odds and ends from, shall we say, "biased" individuals would be another - the dual citizenship nonsense being paramount in this area. And my vote would be that he hosts the artwork/cartoons of a raving anti-semite like Dees. Add that all up, and the conclusion of the "Pro" side in this debate would seem to be that Alex Jones is, if not a raving anti-semite himself, at least showing signs of heading in that direction or pandering to a lucrative audience now that the anti-Dubya forces won't be chipping in their lunch money to buy his DVDs.

On the "Con" side of this discussion, we have TFT and another truther or so IIRC, who contend that until Alex comes right out and does a MaGZ and declares flat out that he hates Jews, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Well yes you do have to give people the benefit. Innocent until proven guilty

TFT, as others have mentioned, you're not going to see that many overt and honest racists.

I don't believe that. It's a passionate view and even a small grasp on human nature means that people aren't going to hide it unless they have a good reason, like jeopardizing their career.

Alex Jones is presumably self sufficient and doesn't need to present a politically correct view. people on this forum are anonymous. MaGZ has no reason to present a politically correct view and neither do I. None of you know who I am so as long as I stay within the forum riles who cares.

If I was racist I wouldn't hesitate in espousing those views here. I would have nothing to lose by doing so and a place like this would be a good platform to do without risking losing any career.

Similarly MaGZ can publish his anti-semitic views here without recrimination, save a condemnation off the rest of us. but like he cares?

So this reasoning that people are hiding their racism doesn't wash in this environment. Neither does it wash in Alex Jones' environment.

MaGZ is an exception. Look how long Clippy danced and played cute little tunes for us, but do you really doubt that he's a white supremacist? Yet he never actually said so, did he?

I don't know about clippy. I got sidetracked with other debates, but again, because of the anonymous environment here I would err on believing he wasn't racist

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, since you mentioned being unable to stand navigating around the Infowars site, maybe you should dig into the threads here when the forum on that site commenced. Are you aware that they ban anyone who's not sympatico with Alex's beliefs in a heartbeat. There are members here who were banned within hours of trying to sign up.

NOW, knowing that, go and read some of the forum again. The JREF forums are an exception to most. Here, they promote differing points of view .... Jones' forums do not tolerate dissenting views. If he allows, through his mods, those racist or anti-semitic posts on his forum and doesn't have anyone there who will disagree, then what is one to think. "Oh, he's not an anti-semite or racist, he just provides a safe harbor for others of that ilk because he's a defender of freedom of speech...."? Ummm, maybe in Lalaland, but not where I grew up.

Let's be clear, I am I'm no fan of Alex Jones. Contrary to the silly fraudulent accusations by some here I am very passionate about racism and how offensive it is. And when I hear such a serious accusation of racism being raised even if it is against a figure like Alex Jones I need to see proper evidence of it before condemning someone.

Especially when the the anti-semitic brand of racism is often hijacked to label people who are simply shouting political criticisms. I go on life experience. Most people I have met are not racist and have no reason to be racist. I have met racists and they are not shy about it. they are not people I would relish becoming friends with.

however I have met a lot of decent people who have political views based upon the behavior of groups. whether that group is republicans, democrats, Zionists, Neocons, etc, etc. They criticize for racist reasons. They criticize for political reasons where they see injustices and agendas they oppose.

People here who try and label me as a racist, especially on the back of lies are only drawing attention to heir own shortcomings.

And when you say "The JREF forums are an exception to most. Here, they promote differing points of view" you are right. the forum itself does indeed promote that. A sizable majority of it's members however do nothing of the sort. They firmly place themselves on the side of debunkers and anti-semitic cops.

Anyone who criticizes Israel or Zionism. Anyone who questions the source of 911 and other violent attacks. Anyone who considers what known as a CT is pounced upon by a pack of wolves hungry to boost their own self esteem by attacking and mocking the victim.

So, although the James Randi ethos likes to think of itself as non-partisan and I can see the good staff here try their best to uphold that, no the James Randi forum does NOT promote differing points of view. At least in the CT and politics sub-forums.

And that's what let's this place down. this is a great forum. But it could be a 100 times better if this silly childish clique of debunkers started acting more maturely and quit the silly insults and lies in order to stomp on anybody who lies outside their group.

It's the "you're either with us or against us" attitude. I've been called a truther and an anti-Semite. Neither of which is even remotely true.

The level of debate on this forum is never going to rise above a base level of lynch mob immaturity unless all views are treated with more respect. Calling out CTers and truthers as having mental problems and suffering from paranoid delusions is immature. The people that have those views are no less rational and intelligent as anyone else here. they just have different views.

People like myself who speak up for the ills against the Palestinians for example, do so not because we hate Jews, we do it because of a basic care for humanity.

Here's an example. MaGZ is clearly racist. how many of you have actually asked him why he holds those views? Have you asked him how long he's held those views? What evolved in him to hold those views? He wasn't born with them, so something must have persuaded him in some way. Maybe it was his folks who told him jews were bad as soon as he was put in his first diaper? I don't know.

But surely instead of lynch mobbing, it would be better to communicate without the personal insults and get to know how the mind of someone liek that works instead of shouting anti-semite like some ADL robot?

I don't come here to fight with anyone, but i'm not goign to accept any crap when it's clearly lies or immature name calling.

Come on people you can do better than this. James Randi has huge potential. Consider trying a different approach. This forum cyber-warrior confrontational battle all the time isn't good debate and isn't good for the soul.

MarkCorrigan

2nd December 2008, 10:54 PM

Anyone who criticizes Israel or Zionism.

I frequently criticise Israel, although not that often on this board (dear god, I've had enough huge arguments with people in person to learn that starting one of those on here would run away from me) and I'm not anti-Semetic. Equally, I would not consider this to be in any way anti-Semetic behaviour, although it is behaviour that anti-Semites will also indulge in. Clearly not everyone who criticises Israel is an anti-Semite.

Constantly blaming Israel for absolutely everything from 9/11 to your tevo not working however, is a pretty clear indication that one is VERY obsessed with Israel, and a primary reason for this would be anti-Semitism.

Here's an example. MaGZ is clearly racist. how many of you have actually asked him why he holds those views? Have you asked him how long he's held those views? What evolved in him to hold those views?
We've tried.

A lot.

He runs away, or just says "well the Jews/blacks did this so..." and then brings up something blown out of proportion or outright made up.

Arus808

2nd December 2008, 11:03 PM

I listen to his show all the time, and no, he's not one iota racist or anti-semetic.

Well, I listen to him when he guest appears for a couple of minutes on Coast To Coast, and he has no qualms in injecting any claims of Mossad involvement in anything that happens in the world.

Tin Foil Timothy

3rd December 2008, 12:48 PM

Well, I listen to him when he guest appears for a couple of minutes on Coast To Coast, and he has no qualms in injecting any claims of Mossad involvement in anything that happens in the world.

Right? And blaming Mossad for everything doesn't make a person racist/Anti-semitic.

And another day passes and yet again we see no links to infowars exposing the racism that Alex Jones is supposed to posses.

dudalb

3rd December 2008, 02:10 PM

Right? And blaming Mossad for everything doesn't make a person racist/Anti-semitic.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1884048ca062020e8b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13773)

And Twoofer Denial reaches a new level.

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 02:20 PM

Tin Foil Timothy

3rd December 2008, 02:40 PM

I think its clear to most of us that Alex Jones does indeed hold some anti-Semitic beliefs. Otherwise, he wouldnt be blaiming the Mossad for everything that goes wrong in the world. Would he murder Jews if he had the chance? No. But nevertheless, he does hold some anti-Jewish views.

Those who seek to defend Alex at all costs, seek to deny the existance of truthers who are racists, or who just want to play devil's advocate to past the time, will of course disagree.

Well I am neither playing devil's advocate not denying that racists/Anti-semites exist.

But blaming Mossad for everything, however ridiculous is not racist. Mossad are not a race.

It's NOT clear to most of us that Alex Jones is anti-semitic. Some people have twisted the definition of racism in order to attack people whose views they disagree with. I've been accused of racism both by lies and a twisted definition.

I see the single celled argument above that replies top me by posting a picture of head in hand saying "And Twoofer Denial reaches a new level."

It seems some people can't even formulate an argument on fact or truth. I am neither a 'twoofer' nor am I in 'denial' but I won't bother asking for evidence of such.

But when I see evidence of Alex Jones Hating/Disliking people for being Jewish I shall be first in line to condemn him. I've stated this a few times now. Although the amoeba arguments choose to ignore that.

I guess we'll never see the thread starter actually provide these "tons of links" that were supposed to be posted here, and which have now miraculously disappeared from the thread. His thread is fake. His premise is fake.

People are innocent until proved guilty. So currently Alex Jones is not a Racist.

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 02:58 PM

But blaming Mossad for everything, however ridiculous is not racist. Mossad are not a race.

People are innocent until proved guilty. So currently Alex Jones is not a Racist.

No, blaiming the Mossad for everything is clearly anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish. I'm very sorry you refuse to see this.

As to "innocent until proven guilty"....why doesn't Alex Jones apply that standard..to the Mossad?

dudalb

3rd December 2008, 04:55 PM

I don't think there is enough evidence in the world to make Tin Foil Timothy admit that Alex Jones has voiced Anti Semitic opinions. The "innocent until Guilty" routine is just a dodge.

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 05:01 PM

innocent until proven guilty. does that include Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Pearle, Wolfowitz, Wermser, Zackheim, Chertoff, and Rice?

i guess not

Tin Foil Timothy

3rd December 2008, 06:44 PM

No, blaiming the Mossad for everything is clearly anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish. I'm very sorry you refuse to see this.

I notice you can't say 'Racist' though.

And while blaming Mossad for everything is most probably becuase he's anti-Israeli Establishment, it doesn't make him anti-Jewish or indeed anti-Israeli

As to "innocent until proven guilty"....why doesn't Alex Jones apply that standard..to the Mossad?

For sure. He should apply the same standard Why don't you email him and ask him?

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 06:47 PM

I For sure. He should apply the same standard Why don't you email him and ask him?

I have no interest in EVER communicating with that horrible man. I think he should have been put in jail for his little Y2K stunt.

:mad:

gtc

3rd December 2008, 06:56 PM

No, blaiming the Mossad for everything is clearly anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish.

I notice you can't say 'Racist' though.

So now your claim is that being anti-Jewish is not being racist.

Nice.

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 07:00 PM

well....since Jews are not a race...hating Jews...can't be racism..right?

I guess that means also, that if I hate Arabs, I am not a racist, because Arabs are not a race.

woo hoo!!!

....btw I don't hate Arabs. one of my good friends is of Saudi descent, and a former Marine. Hoo raa!!!

Tin Foil Timothy

3rd December 2008, 07:04 PM

I don't think there is enough evidence in the world to make Tin Foil Timothy admit that Alex Jones has voiced Anti Semitic opinions.

Can you explain why you said there were 'tons of links' when there wa only one link. And even that wasn't racist.

You started a thread claiming that Alex Jones is a racist. Your main premise seemed to be that it because he was using the word 'Zionist' instead of 'NWO'.

YOU said:

" Man, Alec Jones Is Not Even Hiding It..
His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything."

Now seeing as how there has been no evidence whatsoever that Alex Jones thinks 'The Jews' are behind anything, never mind 'Everything' I think your thread is a complete failure and has zero credibility

Even having an obsession with the Mossad does not make a person a racist any more than having an obsession with the CIA or MI6 a racist.

The "innocent until Guilty" routine is just a dodge.

There's no dodge dudalb. you've proved your argument is a fraud. Your claim has no credibility and it is quite frankly embarrassing.

I actually think Alex Jones is a loud mouth idiot, but people who go around accusing other of racism without evidence are much worse. When they lie to try and give their argument some reality then they sink even lower.

I asked time and time again for links to Alex Jones' racism that you claimed existed and you simply couldn't provide it could you? And then you went on to claim the thread contains "tons of links". There aren't tond of links in this thread. I asked repeatedly and no one could provide even one.

You've got yourself backed into a corner. You made the mistake of creating a fraudulent thread, you have been proved a liar and your claims of Alex Jones being a racist have been proved to be bogus.

So instead of being the man and admitting you were wrong you dig a deeper and deeper hole by ducking, diving, diverting and obfsucating

It's pretty obvious the appointment of Emmanuel as Obama's CHief of Staff is what triggered this outburst of hate at infowars.

Anyone with an mature and reasoned argument of criticism wouldn't use phrases like "Outburst of Hate"

So are you also claiming Alex Jones Spreads hate speech?

What is your agenda? You use labels like racist and phrases like 'outbursts of hate' against people that display neither

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 07:07 PM

You made the mistake of creating a fraudulent thread, you have been proved a liar

can't you guys even try to not attack the messenger???

Tin Foil Timothy

3rd December 2008, 07:08 PM

So now your claim is that being anti-Jewish is not being racist.

Nice.

As that's a kind of question the answer is no. but it's really a statement so .....

An obvious straw man on your part. Misrepresent or lie about your opponent's viewpoint and then attack that misrepresentation or lie

Your forum discussion tactics are really lame. I can't believe you actually type this stuff without realizing that you'll get exposed for it.

Of course Anti-Jewish is racist. Anti-Mossad isn't racist though.

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 07:13 PM

it all depends on WHY...one is anti-Mossad.

Alex has shown that his anti-Mossad rants are a symptom of his suspicion of Jews...especially ones with an ounce of influence.

Tin Foil Timothy

3rd December 2008, 07:21 PM

it all depends on WHY...one is anti-Mossad.

Right? So being anti-Mossad in itself isn't racist. But someone who is Anti-Israeli would also be anti-Mossad because Mossad is an Israeli Organisation and thus is likely to mostly staffed by Israelis.

So do you agree that it's possible to be against the behavior or believed behavior of mossad without having anything against a person for being an Israeli?

Thunder

3rd December 2008, 07:25 PM

yes...and it is also possible to believe that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true...but only refer to a few hundreds powerful Jews...not all Jews.

lets get out of the world of the hypothetical and theoretical...okay?

gtc

3rd December 2008, 07:43 PM

No, blaiming the Mossad for everything is clearly anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish. I'm very sorry you refuse to see this.

I notice you can't say 'Racist' though.

Of course Anti-Jewish is racist.

:dl:

So its not racist but it is racist.

Foolmewunz

3rd December 2008, 08:16 PM

TFT,
I respectfully ask that you stop calling people who disagree with you, "liar". We have established, plainly for anyone who can read, that there are numerous instances on Prison Planet of what many of us deem to be indications of anti-semitism or racism (if we're going that route). If you do not agree, that does not make anyone a liar; it makes them the holder of a different opinion from your own. Continuing to refer to Dudalb's thread and post (and opinion!!!) as a lie is going to earn you a whole heap of trouble.
First Guy: Vanilla is not as good as chocolate.
Second Guy: Liar!

Rather than irrationally defending your position, just take the lead from the few of us who've already figured it out, and define said position.

Here, try this: "I do not think that someone is a racist, bigot, or anti-semite unless the come right out and declare themselves to be one." That is, in fact, what you've already agreed to.

All others: This being the case, there is no need nor even sense to argue with someone about their narrow interpretation of an expression.

MarkCorrigan

3rd December 2008, 09:01 PM

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 10:32 AM

TFT,
I respectfully ask that you stop calling people who disagree with you, "liar".

I'm not calling people who disagree with me liars. I'm calling people who lie, liars. Statements have been made about what was said in threads that are simply untrue and I have proved that.

gtc stated that I said all jews outside of Israel were loyal to Israel. That was a lie, as I never said that. he knows I never said that, however he fabricated it in order to me look bad. I called it out as the lie it was.

We have established, plainly for anyone who can read, that there are numerous instances on Prison Planet of what many of us deem to be indications of anti-semitism or racism (if we're going that route). If you do not agree, that does not make anyone a liar; it makes them the holder of a different opinion from your own. Continuing to refer to Dudalb's thread and post (and opinion!!!) as a lie is going to earn you a whole heap of trouble.
.

Trouble? Is that some kind of threat? What ya gonna do? Poop through my letterbox. :roll:

now.... you have accused me of calling this thread a lie. Could you respectfully show us where I have said that?

Earlier in this thread I asked for evidence of Alex jones's racism and despite asking repeatedly none was forthcoming. So...

My opinion is that dudalb's thread is fraudulent. It falsely claims Alex Jones is a racist. There's been no evidence of Alex Jones hating/disliking people for being Jewish. Racism is racism. It's not political criticism.

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 10:38 AM

Why did you totally ignore me TFT?

I will repeat my rather polite and fair question.

Aside from anti-sematism, what possible reason would a person have for blaming Mossad for all negative things that make the news, even when the Israeli government, for whom Mossad works, effectively, would have nothing to gain, or even would lose out on?

There could be all manner of reasons and racism against Jews could be one of them. But what I see far too much of is people automatically assuming racism is the cause without their being evidence for it. And hating Mossad doesn't mean an automatic hate for Jews.

There's no evidence of Alex Jones being racist.

dudalb

4th December 2008, 10:41 AM

Here, try this: "I do not think that someone is a racist, bigot, or anti-semite unless the come right out and declare themselves to be one." That is, in fact, what you've already agreed to.

Bingo.

Aside from anti-sematism, what possible reason would a person have for blaming Mossad for all negative things that make the news, even when the Israeli government, for whom Mossad works, effectively, would have nothing to gain, or even would lose out on?

That is the dead giveaway: Jones often claims Mossad involvment in situations where Israel has absolutely nothing to gain.

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 02:02 PM

That is the dead giveaway: Jones often claims Mossad involvment in situations where Israel has absolutely nothing to gain.

Your accusations are offensive. What's Israel having anything to 'gain' from it got to do with anything? NOTHING.

Alex Jones may think Israel has something to gain. He might be completely wrong in those assumptions. But that doesn't matter.

The claim that someone is racist because they have an obsession with an intelligence agency is dumb.

And is that all you've got to go on? This thread contains one infowars link to some flimsy rhetoric about 'Jewish Arrogance' . You then lied and siad there were tons of ilnks. proved here http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4241912&postcount=254

gtc has lied about my views, proved here http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4243491&postcount=93

As well as telling untruths about what was said or put into threads you are clutching at straws. You were shown that a comment about 'Jewish arrogance' was nonsense in proving someone was racist. So now this week's target is Alex Jones's blame of mossad for "everything"

And now you've been shown that is absolutely no proof that someone hates/dislikes Jews you'll probably pick up on something else. What is next week's theme? Alex Jones doesn't likwe Bagels. He must be a racist. Gimme a break! :roll:

And now to top it all we have another poster, Foolmewunz, who has said "I respectfully ask that you stop calling people who disagree with you, "liar"." and proclaimed that if I continue I'll get in a "whole heap of trouble" !! I notice he hasn't come back to actually provide evidence where I have done such, and I won't hold my breath. Another that's lost credibility.

So... after 8 pages we have a mysterious missing 'tons of links' :boggled: and no evidence that Alex Jones is a racist.

Come on dudalb!! Where are these tons of links in the thread? Show me them and I'll take back my observations of you lying and apologize.

Thunder

4th December 2008, 03:53 PM

There's no evidence of Alex Jones being racist.

um...do we really need to start a topic about Alex Jones' racist attitudes towards illegal Latin American immigrants and Latino cultures?

you REALLY don't wanna go there homeboy. trust me.

gtc

4th December 2008, 04:09 PM

gtc has lied about my views, proved here http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4243491&postcount=93

Just a heads up:

If you want to accuse people of lying about your views being racist, it generally helps your case if you don't link to your racist views.

Thunder

4th December 2008, 04:35 PM

Just a heads up:

If you want to accuse people of lying about your views being racist, it generally helps your case if you don't link to your racist views.

Im gonna come to Timmy's defense here, cause I dont find anything racist in that post.

Though I am curious as to why heb (hiliarious Freudian slip there :D) thinks Israel "stole" Palestinian land, when it was simply conquered in a conventional war. Did Jordan "steal" the West Bank? Did Egypt "steal" Gaza? No one would ever think of arguing this..even though the entire planet refused to recognize Jordan's annexation of the West Bank.

Did the USA "steal" Oklahoma? Did England "steal" Scotland?

Why is that the world conquers land..but Jews steal it?

:boggled:

anti-Semites love to accuse Jews of stealing things. not an accusation...just an observation.

gtc

4th December 2008, 05:35 PM

Im gonna come to Timmy's defense here, cause I dont find anything racist in that post.

That's good of you.

The reason I think what he wrote is racist is shown in this post:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4244991&postcount=278

Which TFT has ignored (other than calling me a liar ad nausem).

He made the statement that he saw nothing wrong with Alex Jones idea that all Jewish Americans in Government owe loyalty to Israel and in fact extended it to all Jewish persons. His exact words are shown in the post I quote.

In the post that you just referred to, he takes it a step further and says that the idea that Jews are loyal to Israel (irrespective of their actual nationality) is no different to the idea that Americans are loyal to America. An American can be assumed to have loyalty to America because that is his country. It is racist conspiracy theory to assume that a Jew who may never have visited Israel would owe loyalty to Israel simply by virtue of their ethnicity.

Its even worse because in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4244968&postcount=184) TFT suggests that Marx remained a Jew despite his father converting to Lutherism prior to Marx's birth. So no matter what religion a Jew is, they will always be assumed by TFT to be loyal to Israel.

Thunder

4th December 2008, 08:31 PM

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 09:27 PM

Just a heads up:

If you want to accuse people of lying about your views being racist, it generally helps your case if you don't link to your racist views.

Just a heads up: I have no racist views. If I did I would tell you. I have no reason to hide anything.

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 09:33 PM

Im gonna come to Timmy's defense here, cause I dont find anything racist in that post.

Thank you for that. I am not racist.

Though I am curious as to why heb (hiliarious Freudian slip there :D) thinks Israel "stole" Palestinian land, when it was simply conquered in a conventional war.

Why is that the world conquers land..but Jews steal it?

:boggled:

anti-Semites love to accuse Jews of stealing things. not an accusation...just an observation.

Firstly conquered in conventional war is no legitmate rioght to steal. if I came round to your house with a bunch of mercenaries, broke in and conquered you, it wouldn't give me the right to your posessions.

When germany was 'beat' in WW2 we didn't disaplce the germans and divide up the land for English, Russian and American citizens to build settlements on.

I'm talking individuals having their land stolen here.

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 09:49 PM

That's good of you.

The reason I think what he wrote is racist is shown in this post:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4244991&postcount=278

Which TFT has ignored (other than calling me a liar ad nausem).

He made the statement that he saw nothing wrong with Alex Jones idea that all Jewish Americans in Government owe loyalty to Israel and in fact extended it to all Jewish persons. His exact words are shown in the post I quote.

In the post that you just referred to, he takes it a step further and says that the idea that Jews are loyal to Israel (irrespective of their actual nationality) is no different to the idea that Americans are loyal to America. An American can be assumed to have loyalty to America because that is his country. It is racist conspiracy theory to assume that a Jew who may never have visited Israel would owe loyalty to Israel simply by virtue of their ethnicity.

Its even worse because in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4244968&postcount=184) TFT suggests that Marx remained a Jew despite his father converting to Lutherism prior to Marx's birth. So no matter what religion a Jew is, they will always be assumed by TFT to be loyal to Israel.

Firstly being Jewish is not just a religion. So yes Karl Marx still had Jewish ethnicity, even though the religion of his father changed. Not that it matters anyway.

Secondly your whole post above is a ridiculous extrapolation. Using the Karl Marx issue to make a case for me saying all Jews no matter if they changed their religion are loyal to Israel is bunkum.

And, and upon which you lied, is that I didn't say ALL Jews had a Loyalty to Israel. My exact words were ....

"Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't "

Now look, as you can see, I didn't say all Jews had a loyalty to Israel. But come on! there's nothing untoward about thinking there's nothing wrong with Jews having a Loyalty to Israel. Why the hell not? it's supposed to be the Jewish Homeland. Surely there's nothing wrong with Jews having a loyalty to Israel. It doesn't make me a racist for thinking that even if it's not actually 'odd' for some Jews not to have a Loyalty to israel.

This is getting extremely tedious. You're busting a gut, including lying, in order to prove me a racist. It's completely pointless. I am upfront with my views. I highly dislike the way Israel is treating the Palestinians and I recognize the Israeli Lobby in the US as being a reason why Israel can get away with that because of the powerful backing of the US. It's absolutely NOTHING to do with any prejudices against Jewish people. Apart from anything else I can see no logic in being prejudice against anyone for their race/ethnicity/nationality.

You are wasting far too much energy on a false premise and if you persist I will only fight back harder.

Tin Foil Timothy

4th December 2008, 10:15 PM

I think what Timothy fails to realize, is that racism and anti-Semitism, can be cleverly masked.

Rather then bashing Jews, many anti-Semites instead bash Zionists. Rather then bashing blacks, many racists used to bash Welfare.

Bigots always find clever ways to hide their hatred. But in the end, they are all unmasked.

Your post there really sums up the big mistake with many people on this forum. It's like many of you are in some obsessive lynch mob mode which is always in trigger happy mode to unmask a cloaked racist.

I'm not stupid. I realize that racists exist. And what you people fail to realise is that most people are not racist. Most people observe political ill wills around the world and speak up about them.

With most political illwills there's no problem. People listen and generally agree.

But when it comes to criticizing Israel and or the Zionist movement the Anti-semitic lynch mob stomp down the street with their pitch forks and torches trying to prove that any slight Israeli criticism or criticism of anything Jewish related has a hidden anti-semitic agenda.

Half the time you're too busy to even notice how absurd some of your arguments look from the sidelines.

This thread is a real classic example. Someone (dudalb) sees Alex Jones mentioning Zionists and all excitedly logs onto JREF to start a thread proclaiming that Alex Jones isn't hiding his alleged "Anti-semitism"

It's a winner isn't it? Most people here think Alex jones is an idiot, so they are not going to scrutinize the validity of the thread's premise that closely.

And then I come along and question it. Not because I have any allegiance to Alex Jones. I think he's a jerk as well. but because I think the charge of racism is serious one and not something that should be bandied around on weak and untenable evidence.

Then of course I start to get attacked as well. All of a sudden I am this racist. Statements I make are modified to turn me into being this racist. Lies, OK let's call them untruths, are made.

You people are not doing yourselves any favors by refusing to believe that anyone who criticizes Israel and the Zionist movement isn't some masked Anti-semite.

There's a lot of legitimate criticism to be made of the Zionist Movement and the actions of Israel against the Palestinians. Soe of you may want to defend that and see the labelling of racism against those who do criticize as being an effective tool to stifle that criticism. But it wont' work with me. You can call me a racist all you like, but it wont' stop me criticizing where I see fit. And when you do call me a racist I shall expose your accusations as being untrue. And they are blatant untruths, like gtc has proclaimed I shall call them the lies they are.

However hard you dig, you will NEVER find any racism in me. Because there sincerely isn't any. But if you want to carry on wasting untold amounts of energy on trying to expose what isn't there then carry on.

The way to defend Israel and Zionism is not to launch the Anti-semitic missiles by playing the racist card everytime like some demented lynch mob. It's by the countering the specific criticisms of the person you disagree with.

If you really want to attack racists as a hobby, then they are not difficult to find. Just go to Stormfront or whatever other racist sites there are out there.

gtc

4th December 2008, 10:16 PM

Firstly being Jewish is not just a religion. So yes Karl Marx still had Jewish ethnicity, even though the religion of his father changed. Not that it matters anyway.

Yes. You said that he was an Ashkenazi Jew.

Secondly your whole post above is a ridiculous extrapolation. Using the Karl Marx issue to make a case for me saying all Jews no matter if they changed their religion are loyal to Israel is bunkum.

No. You are putting the cart before the horse. You first said that you would be surprised if a Jew wasn't loyal to Israel. Then you said that you consider Marx to be a Jew. Your belief that Jews are loyal to Israel apparently applies to not only religious or cultural Jews but ethnic Jews as well.

"Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't "

I'm sorry but remember that this is in response to the claim by Alex Jones that all Jews in the US government are loyal to Israel. Suggesting that you would find it odd if a Jew wasn't loyal to Israel indicates that you too believe that Jews are loyal to Israel. Maybe you can accept that some Jews aren't loyal to Israel but the fact that it would surprise you if a Jew wasn't loyal to Israel tells us that you are prejudiced towards Jews and that your prejudice is that Jews (irrespective of religion or nationality) are loyal to Israel.

Now look, as you can see, I didn't say all Jews had a loyalty to Israel. But come on! there's nothing untoward about thinking there's nothing wrong with Jews having a Loyalty to Israel.

Your words go further than that. An ordinary person would be surprised if a Jew who wasn't Israeli owed Israel loyalty. You would be surprised if they weren't loyal.

Why the hell not? it's supposed to be the Jewish Homeland. Surely there's nothing wrong with Jews having a loyalty to Israel. It doesn't make me a racist for thinking that even if it's not actually 'odd' for some Jews not to have a Loyalty to israel.

You've changed your mind then. First you said it would surprise you if they were loyal, now you are saying that it wouldn't be odd if they weren't loyal. Which is it?

Apart from anything else I can see no logic in being prejudice against anyone for their race/ethnicity/nationality.

And yet your words say otherwise. You have shown that you are prejudiced against Jews and you have shown you have other racial prejudices as well:

The only phrase that is Jewish centric is "jewish Arrogance" - Quite frankly that's an extremely lame reason to label someone a racist and a person that hates or dislikes Jews. Many naionalities/ethnicities have attributes. For example British "stiff upper lip" - German "efficiancy", Scandanavian "Drunkenness" and so on.

As an aside. What makes you think Scandinavians tend towards drunkenness?

You are wasting far too much energy on a false premise and if you persist I will only fight back harder.

Just what do you mean by 'fighting back harder'?

gtc

4th December 2008, 10:29 PM

There's a lot of legitimate criticism to be made of the Zionist Movement and the actions of Israel against the Palestinians.

Of course there can be legitimate criticism of Israel or the Zionist movement and some of your criticisms are legitimate and not racist.

However, prejudice against Jews is racist. Saying that you would be surprised that a Jewish person (whose ancestors may not have lived in the Middle East since the time of Jesus and who may never have even been there and who may not have been raised in the Jewish faith or culture) didn't have divided loyalties is prejudiced. Saying that arrogance is a Jewish trait is prejudiced.

When it is taken a step further (as Alex Jones) does and the claim becomes that there is a secret cabal of Jews organised by Israel (the government of which all the Jews of the world owe loyalty) that is responsible for numerous undercover attacks on peoples and places throughout the world then the racism is even more clear cut. Particularly as there is never one iota of evidence presented about the beliefs of the Jews or the actions of Mossad.

Do you think Mossad was involved in the Mumbai attacks or 9/11? I don't think you answered this. I apologise if you have answered this, in which case could you tell me if it was in this thread.

Walter Bellhaven

4th December 2008, 11:59 PM

um...do we really need to start a topic about Alex Jones' racist attitudes towards illegal Latin American immigrants and Latino cultures?

you REALLY don't wanna go there homeboy. trust me.

Man, you guys are so far off. He has stated many times that he's not against the Mexican people, in fact he has a lot of good things to say about them. He's just opposed to what he sees as the American government purposely allowing illegal immigrants in to drive down wages and basically help in destroying the country.

And regarding Israel: Yes, he says many bad things about Israel, but how can you come to the conclusion that that is anti-Semetism? He says even more bad things about America and Britain, which are very Christian.. So where's the claim that he's anti-Christian? (you all seem to be making a "he hates the Israeli gov't, so he must hate the main religion of that country," argument, which doesn't make any sense).

I've seen a bunch of your posts parky, and you seem to think everyone is anti-Semetic and racist.

gtc

5th December 2008, 12:03 AM

He also thinks the UK and the US are controlled by the Zionists. So saying bad things about them doesn't imply even-handedness.

MarkCorrigan

5th December 2008, 03:49 AM

There could be all manner of reasons and racism against Jews could be one of them.

Well that's wonderful.

Name some. I can't think of ANY reason to blame Mossad for ANYTHING it did not do. Seriously, name a few alternate reasons. You name some reasons, I will stop using the blame laying at the door of Mossad on Alex Jones being anti-Semitic.

But what I see far too much of is people automatically assuming racism is the cause without their being evidence for it. And hating Mossad doesn't mean an automatic hate for Jews.

What the hell else is it evidence of? Blaming Mossad immediately and irrevocably implicates Israel. Ok, so he blames Israel for everything...why?

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 10:37 AM

Well that's wonderful.

Name some. I can't think of ANY reason to blame Mossad for ANYTHING it did not do. Seriously, name a few alternate reasons. You name some reasons, I will stop using the blame laying at the door of Mossad on Alex Jones being anti-Semitic.

What the hell else is it evidence of? Blaming Mossad immediately and irrevocably implicates Israel. Ok, so he blames Israel for everything...why?

So because you cannot think of any other reason it must be racism right? That's really not good enough.

I don't have any reasons to blame Mossad for everything, and just because I can't think of any specific reasons doesn't mean Alex Jones is racist

And even if Alex Jones thinks Israel has some agenda it doesn't make him a racist.

Your arguments are weak and baseless. You're the kind of person that goes around labelling people racists not because you've got evidence, but because you just think they might be. And because you can't be bothered to find out the real reason Alex Jones has a thing about Mossad.

Lame.

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 10:42 AM

And yet your words say otherwise. You have shown that you are prejudiced against Jews and you have shown you have other racial prejudices as well:

No they don't say otherwise. You twisted my words and thus lied. I'm not prejudice against anyone for the race/ethncity.

As an aside. What makes you think Scandinavians tend towards drunkenness?

Because I've been there a few times and as a people they are big drinkers. And that's not prejudice it's a jovial observational generalisation. :)

Just what do you mean by 'fighting back harder'?

I shall continue to expose your strawman and lies if you continue with them

Thunder

5th December 2008, 10:47 AM

And even if Alex Jones thinks Israel has some agenda it doesn't make him a racist.
.

Believing that Israel and Zionism has an agenda of conquering and ruling the world, is indeed anti-Semitic.

I simply cannot believe anyone is actually too blind or thick headed enough to not understand this. Thats why I believe there is a great deal of dishonesty going around in this topic.

Thunder

5th December 2008, 10:53 AM

I've seen a bunch of your posts parky, and you seem to think everyone is anti-Semetic and racist.

Thats quite funny, considering I myself have started posts about right-wing Zionists always crying "anti-Semitism" in order to silence their critics.

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 11:00 AM

Why the hell not? it's supposed to be the Jewish Homeland. Surely there's nothing wrong with Jews having a loyalty to Israel. It doesn't make me a racist for thinking that even if it's not actually 'odd' for some Jews not to have a Loyalty to israel.]
You've changed your mind then. First you said it would surprise you if they were loyal, now you are saying that it wouldn't be odd if they weren't loyal.

See? you're doing it again. I'm beginning to think you don't read the posts.

Let me explain in even simpler terms as you obviosuly require it ....

**** this is tedious, but here goes... <sigh>

I originally said I would find it odd for a Jewish person not to have loyalty to Israel. Given that Israel is the Jewish homeland. None of that is racist.

I did not say above it wouldn't be odd if they weren't loyal, I said "even if it wasn't odd"

If you cannot distinguish between the two meanings then there's no hope is there.

Perhaps this is the problem? I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand a simple statement, so when you blatantly stated something attributed to myself that was completely untrue I assumed you were deliberately lying in order to fabricate an allegation of me being racist

Remember it was you who turned my statement..

TFT "Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't "

into ....

gtc "TFT admits that he thinks that every Jew outside of Israel has divided loyalty to Israel. His views are definitely anti-semitic."

Can you see what you've done there? Or not? if you can't then I feel sorry for your lack of comprehension. If you can then you were deliberately lying?

If you are going to continue to twist my words into something I haven't said in order to fuel your obsession with falsely painting me a racist then I'm not going to waste anymore time conversing with you.

And in regard to your Mumbai-Mossad Question, I have no reason to believe that Mossad had anything to do with the Mumbai attacks. I wouldn't automatically paint anyone a racist if they did have some reason to make such a connection though.

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 11:07 AM

Believing that Israel and Zionism has an agenda of conquering and ruling the world, is indeed anti-Semitic.

I simply cannot believe anyone is actually too blind or thick headed enough to not understand this. Thats why I believe there is a great deal of dishonesty going around in this topic.

Of course it's not anti-semitic.

I can't believe how anyone is blind or thick headed enough to believe it is.

Now look, I do NOT believe Israel or the Zionist Movement has an agenda to rule and conquer the world. I think such an allegation is really far fetched and not credible.

However misguided and nutty it is to believe that a group of people who are Jewish are conspiring to rule the world it doesn't automatically follow that people believing such a theory have a hatred/dislike for Jews.

So yes it's silly, nutty, crazy or whatever, but it's not racist.

MarkCorrigan

5th December 2008, 11:09 AM

So because you cannot think of any other reason it must be racism right? That's really not good enough.

I don't have any reasons to blame Mossad for everything, and just because I can't think of any specific reasons doesn't mean Alex Jones is racist

Technically true. It does however suggest that it's likely. Given the total lack of other options as far as I can see, it is therefore logical to assume that the only option known is accurate.

Similarly, if I am shown alternate reasons I will weigh them based upon other evidence and judge accordingly. It's a bit difficult to assess the evidence and come to a conclusion on the possible options when there is only one option available.

If there are no other reasons, why not assume the first one presented is correct?

Incidentally; "lame"? What are you, 12?

dudalb

5th December 2008, 11:52 AM

Man, you guys are so far off. He has stated many times that he's not against the Mexican people, in fact he has a lot of good things to say about them. He's just opposed to what he sees as the American government purposely allowing illegal immigrants in to drive down wages and basically help in destroying the country.

And regarding Israel: Yes, he says many bad things about Israel, but how can you come to the conclusion that that is anti-Semetism? He says even more bad things about America and Britain, which are very Christian.. So where's the claim that he's anti-Christian? (you all seem to be making a "he hates the Israeli gov't, so he must hate the main religion of that country," argument, which doesn't make any sense).

I've seen a bunch of your posts parky, and you seem to think everyone is anti-Semetic and racist.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1884048c0441c04bd0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13694)

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 12:27 PM

Technically true. It does however suggest that it's likely. Given the total lack of other options as far as I can see, it is therefore logical to assume that the only option known is accurate.

Is that really the way you're mind works?

Similarly, if I am shown alternate reasons I will weigh them based upon other evidence and judge accordingly. It's a bit difficult to assess the evidence and come to a conclusion on the possible options when there is only one option available.

"Weigh them up against other evidence." :confused:

You haven't got any evidence to prove that Alex Jones is Racist yet you're weighing up him being a racist.

IMO you are being prejudiced against Alex Jones. You've prejudged him to be a racist and because of that you are making an illogical link that his obsession with Mossad can only be because of racism because thats the only option your prejudice allows you to consider.

Anyone with out a prejudice against him would not automatically go for racism as the most likely option and they certainly wouldn't label him as such because they couldn't be bothered to research any other reasons for it.

If there are no other reasons, why not assume the first one presented is correct?

It's not proved their are no other reasons, and do you label someone a racist based upon an assumption without evidence? I guess you do

Incidentally; "lame"? What are you, 12?

Don't be patronising. I would hardly call logic that assumes an option to be the truth because it's the only one you can think of .... mature.

Thunder

5th December 2008, 01:02 PM

However misguided and nutty it is to believe that a group of people who are Jewish are conspiring to rule the world it doesn't automatically follow that people believing such a theory have a hatred/dislike for Jews.
.

riiiiiiiiiight

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 02:34 PM

riiiiiiiiiight

Ok then.

You give us a well reasoned logical explanation of why it is.. And it's not good enough just to say that anti-semites have proclaimed those theories.

And considered this.... Some Muslims want to take over the world and rule it. Does everyone who states this hate Muslims?

Thunder

5th December 2008, 04:32 PM

Please provide a quote from a Jews who says they want to conquer the world and rule it.

MarkCorrigan

5th December 2008, 05:29 PM

Is that really the way you're mind works?

"Weigh them up against other evidence." :confused:

You haven't got any evidence to prove that Alex Jones is Racist yet you're weighing up him being a racist.

IMO you are being prejudiced against Alex Jones. You've prejudged him to be a racist and because of that you are making an illogical link that his obsession with Mossad can only be because of racism because thats the only option your prejudice allows you to consider.

Anyone with out a prejudice against him would not automatically go for racism as the most likely option and they certainly wouldn't label him as such because they couldn't be bothered to research any other reasons for it.

It's not proved their are no other reasons, and do you label someone a racist based upon an assumption without evidence? I guess you do

Don't be patronising. I would hardly call logic that assumes an option to be the truth because it's the only one you can think of .... mature.

How the hell does your mind work?

I look for possible explanations. When I think of some I test them against the evidence and go with the one that fits it best, if there are no examples that concretely fit, or CAN concretely, objectively fit the evidence, as in this case, I go for the most logical option.

Given that the options seem to be "he blames Israel because it's run by Jews" and "He blames Israel because....something", and he seems to believe that a mysterious NWO runs the world with the aid of or allied with Israel, and also thinks that Jews are beholden to Israel despite being...well, not Israeli. Well, yes, the logical answer wouuld seem to be "he hates the Jews".

As for your pathetically naive assumption that racists don't hide it, are you aware of the BNP?

The BNP, in case you don't know, are the British National Party. They are absolutely, emphatically racist. They are racist to the core. At-Semitic, anti Arab, anti anyone not white, effectively.

They however, insist they are not racist. They even send out leaflets loudly stating they aren't, while at the same time spewing neo-nazi filth.

So, why must racists state outright they are racist? I have seen direct, first hand evidence that a large organisation of racists state they are NOT what they are thought to be, and fight against being labelled as such. So tell me, are they racist?

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 05:56 PM

How the hell does your mind work?

Fairer and less prejudice that yours that's for sure. My mind works on evidence. I see no evidence of Alex Jones hating or dislike people for being Jewish.

It's certainly a good job everyone on a jury isn't like you isn't it?

I look for possible explanations. When I think of some I test them against the evidence and go with the one that fits it best, if there are no examples that concretely fit, or CAN concretely, objectively fit the evidence, as in this case, I go for the most logical option.

IOW when there's no evidence for any of your possible explanations you pick the one that fits your prejudices.

Given that the options seem to be "he blames Israel because it's run by Jews" and "He blames Israel because....something", and he seems to believe that a mysterious NWO runs the world with the aid of or allied with Israel, and also thinks that Jews are beholden to Israel despite being...well, not Israeli. Well, yes, the logical answer wouuld seem to be "he hates the Jews".

No it's not the logical answer. Logic would state that there isn't a known answer. What you do is find out the answer, not just pick on that fits your gut feeling or prejudice.

As for your pathetically naive assumption that racists don't hide it, are you aware of the BNP?

Your pathetic accusation that I think racists don't hide it is misrepresentation. What I said was there's no need for racists to hide it on a forum like this which is anonymous. Alex Jones may have a need to hide racism. I've always said Alex Jones could be racist. The difference between me and you is that I don't label people with such offensive attributes like racist unless there is evidence of it. An currently no one has provided any evidence of Alex Jones hating Jews.

The BNP, in case you don't know, are the British National Party. They are absolutely, emphatically racist. They are racist to the core. At-Semitic, anti Arab, anti anyone not white, effectively.

They however, insist they are not racist. They even send out leaflets loudly stating they aren't, while at the same time spewing neo-nazi filth.

So, why must racists state outright they are racist? I have seen direct, first hand evidence that a large organisation of racists state they are NOT what they are thought to be, and fight against being labelled as such. So tell me, are they racist?

I'm not familiar with them, but unlike Alex Jones you seem to have evidence these people being racist. Well you say you have. Considering your history on here I'd have to see it to believe it.

The world needs less people who throw out accusations of racism when there's no evidence. That kind of thing is just as ugly as racism itself.

Tin Foil Timothy

5th December 2008, 06:09 PM

Please provide a quote from a Jews who says they want to conquer the world and rule it.

Is that your logical and reasoned evidence that a theory that some Jews want to rule the world is racist?

What if there were theories that some French people wanted to rule the world? Would that be racist as well. Would the people holding those theories automatically hate French People?

And we;re still waiting for those links to infowars that show evidence of Alex Jones hating/disliking Jews. dudalb said there were 'tons of links' posted here already. He lied about that as I think it's safe to say one link is NOT 'tons'.

But we all know this is no evidence of Alex Jones hating/disliking Jews is there? What happened is that someone got all sweaty over seeing the word Zionist at infowars and couldn't stop themselves being a hero for exposing yet another vile pit of Anti-Semitism in the world at JREF.

I suppose this kind of mind set appeals to those single celled organisms who accuse people of racism because their prejudices prevent them from bothering to find out the truth. "He said Zionist. He blames Mossad! Racist! Racist! duh duh glub glub:hypnotize:hypnotize:footinmou:footinmou!"

But it's all fallen flat on it's face hasn't it? But no one has the courage to own up and admit the thread is a fraud. They'd much rather divert, derail obfuscate, tell lies, create strawman arguments and even make offensive accusations of racism because someone looks like a racist.

Pathetic.

MarkCorrigan

5th December 2008, 07:25 PM

Fairer and less prejudice that yours that's for sure. My mind works on evidence. I see no evidence of Alex Jones hating or dislike people for being Jewish.

It's certainly a good job everyone on a jury isn't like you isn't it?

IOW when there's no evidence for any of your possible explanations you pick the one that fits your prejudices.

No it's not the logical answer. Logic would state that there isn't a known answer. What you do is find out the answer, not just pick on that fits your gut feeling or prejudice.

Your pathetic accusation that I think racists don't hide it is misrepresentation. What I said was there's no need for racists to hide it on a forum like this which is anonymous. Alex Jones may have a need to hide racism. I've always said Alex Jones could be racist. The difference between me and you is that I don't label people with such offensive attributes like racist unless there is evidence of it. An currently no one has provided any evidence of Alex Jones hating Jews.

I'm not familiar with them, but unlike Alex Jones you seem to have evidence these people being racist. Well you say you have. Considering your history on here I'd have to see it to believe it.

The world needs less people who throw out accusations of racism when there's no evidence. That kind of thing is just as ugly as racism itself.

Seriously, look up the BNP. One of their songs used to be "BNP, BNP, 'Aint no black in the Union Jack so send the ******* back".

Lovely bunch of people.

Now, I appologise for misreading and misrepresenting your views on racists re. anonymity. That was stupid of me, and I was in error.

On the other hand....I have little interest in Alex Jones. Quite frankly I couldn't care less if he was racist, Jewish himself or a bright blue moon man. Doesn't affect my life in any way. I had no idea who he was until I came to this board. None whatsoever. In fact, I had no idea who he was for the first month or so AFTER I came to this board, as I stayed in Religion & Philosophy and Politics in the main. I decided to branch out to see if any arguments were being made against my own personal belief on 9/11 (LIHOI, just so you know, although in this case the second I includes major issues within the American security system.

On the other hand, I consider blaming an organ of a nation, and therefore the nation itself of complicity in grievous attacks without any evidence to be an indication that one does not like that nation, for one reason or another.

Given that there is a logical (yes, it IS logical, you admitted so yourself) explanation; Alex Jones hates the Jews, I feel it is perfectly logical to acept this statement FOR THE TIME BEING.If I am presented with another theory, then I will weigh it against the evidence (plausibility of the theory, comments AJ makes etc) and if it matches more accurately I will accept that conclusion, for the time being, and retract my previous assumptions.

I work in the same way that science works. You look at something, make a claim, test it to see if it fits the evidence (in this case, AJ blames Israel for absolutely no fathomable reason, Israel is the Jewish "homeland", often attacks on Israel, Zionists and/or Mossad are used as a cover for anti-Semitism) and if it does, as, in this case, "AJ hates the Jews" does indeed fit, and will state that the theory is logically sound. If there is a competing theory, which there is not, although I offered you a challenge to find one then I will state that option A is the most reasonable. It isn't like I am claiming he absolutely is a racist and nothing you or anyone else can say will change my mind on this. Similarly, I look at the evidence for god, find it wanting and thus accept the "no god" hypothesis. If shown evidence for god, I will alter my beliefs. Similarly, if shown evidence that AJ hates the jews he has mentioned for some other reason, and it fits the other available evidence, then I will alter my view and apologise to anyone I've offended.

gtc

5th December 2008, 07:41 PM

I did not say above it wouldn't be odd if they weren't loyal, I said "even if it wasn't odd"

That isn't what you wrote. If you compare my words to something you didn't write, then of course it is going to look like you were misrepresented.

TFT "Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't "

into ....

gtc "TFT admits that he thinks that every Jew outside of Israel has divided loyalty to Israel. His views are definitely anti-semitic."

You have taken your quote out of context. The context was that you were defending Alex Jones claim that all Jewish government officials are dual citizens of Israel and owe their loyalty to Israel. In that context, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that the words you wrote mean that you too think that all Jews are loyal to Israel.

However, I will accept that you didn't mean that all non-Israeli Jews are loyal to Israel just that you expect non-Israeli Jews to be loyal (just as you expect Jews to be arrogant and Scandanavians to be drunkards). So, what proportion of non-Israeli Jews do you think aren't loyal to Israel? A rough answer would do.

And in regard to your Mumbai-Mossad Question, I have no reason to believe that Mossad had anything to do with the Mumbai attacks. I wouldn't automatically paint anyone a racist if they did have some reason to make such a connection though.

What if they had no reason?

No they don't say otherwise. You twisted my words and thus lied. I'm not prejudice against anyone for the race/ethncity.

Yes you are. Assuming that Jews are arrogant or loyal to Israel or that Scandinavians are drunkards is prejudiced. You keep trying to change the definition of words like racist and prejudiced.

NorthMass

5th December 2008, 08:50 PM

Thunder

6th December 2008, 08:33 AM

I suppose this kind of mind set appeals to those single celled organisms who accuse people of racism because their prejudices prevent them from bothering to find out the truth. "He said Zionist. He blames Mossad! Racist! Racist! duh duh glub glub:hypnotize:hypnotize:footinmou:footinmou!"
.

wow....a truther has never called me that before.

what's next? "you dirty rat"?

Trojan_Jockey

6th December 2008, 09:14 AM

wow....a truther has never called me that before.

what's next? "you dirty rat"?

Watch out, he'll probably call you a Zionist. For a thruther that's one below child molester.

Tin Foil Timothy

6th December 2008, 09:27 AM

Yes you are. Assuming that Jews are arrogant or loyal to Israel or that Scandinavians are drunkards is prejudiced. You keep trying to change the definition of words like racist and prejudiced.

Actually I'm not prejudice. Please don't try and attach National generalisations, like for example "German Efficiency" or "French Romanticism"< "OR Scandinavian drunkenness" with prejudice. They are generalizations.

And yet again you are putting words in my mouth. ....

I have never said I expect Jews to be arrogant, and I've never said I expect Scandinavians to be drunk. Regarding Loyalty to Israel, all I sad was on the subject ..

"Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't "

now I'm not going to continue going around in circles on a rail of pedantry because of your deliberate twisting of my words. Enough already.

Anyway can you tell me what's wrong with Jewish person have a loyalty to Israel? Is that a bad thing?

Tin Foil Timothy

6th December 2008, 09:29 AM

A lot of Alex Jones fans refuse to look at him objectively. But a lot of people who can't stand Alex Jones do the same thing and don't look at him objectively. This is my conclusion after reading many threads on this site and others.

You're not kidding. All these people shouting racist at Alex-Jones have no objective reasoning whatsoever

Tin Foil Timothy

6th December 2008, 09:33 AM

wow....a truther has never called me that before.

what's next? "you dirty rat"?

A truther? :confused: I assume that I was the one who said that, that I am supposed to be a truther?

On basis do you arrive at that?

And it's interesting to note that the mindset wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but you were certainly quick to associate yourself with the description. Telling.

It's a bit like shouting "Those of you who are idiots...." at a crowd of people and someone in the crowd says. "I've never been called an idiot"

Thunder

6th December 2008, 10:37 AM

Yes, I admit it. I secretly consider myself to be a single-celled organism.

skepticalcriticalguy

6th December 2008, 12:16 PM

It isn't Jews or Israelis that Alex Jones hates. It's corruption.

He also doesn't like Israeli, or ANY, spies in the US government.

Thunder

6th December 2008, 02:28 PM

It isn't Jews or Israelis that Alex Jones hates. It's corruption.

He also doesn't like Israeli, or ANY, spies in the US government.

Ahhh..Alex Jones hates corruption!!! Now i understand.

Is this why he constantly appears on Kremlin funded "Russia Today" and constantly takes Putin's side in the Georgian conflict? Because he "hates corruption"?

You are aware that Putin is responsible for the worst false-flag attack in Europe...right?

gtc

7th December 2008, 12:00 AM

Prejudice is defined as an opinion formed beforehand and intolerance or dislike for people of a specific race, religion or group.

He also doesn't like Israeli, or ANY, spies in the US government.

Good for him. What evidence does he have to suggest that there are Israeli spies in the US government?

And simply being Jewish isn't evidence that someone is an Israeli spy.

funk de fino

7th December 2008, 12:36 AM

If the Israel govt policy is expansionism then why are there people of jewish decent who have been forcibly removed from illegal settlements that have then been flattened and shut down? Why are the govt troops going in to punish the jewish settlers at the moment?

Also why can the Egyptians seem to accept that pull out from Sinai and not launch missiles and suicide bombings at Israel all day like Palestinians?
How can anyone accept the plight of the Palesteins if they fight and bicker and kill each other? They punish their own people because of what area they live in according to who the leaders are for that area. Hundreds of them have been persecuted by Hamas by not being allowed to go to the Haj.

If Israel pulls back they just fire missiles and bomb them from closer boundaries. There are two side to the story over there unfortunately the ignorant only see one side and then wonder why they are called for anti semetism or islamophobia depending on what side the hat falls.

Thunder

7th December 2008, 08:35 AM

the israeli govt. used to be expansionist. now they are just trying to figure out how much land they can hold on to. the day of the expansionist Zionist are over.

Tin Foil Timothy

7th December 2008, 03:11 PM

the israeli govt. used to be expansionist. now they are just trying to figure out how much land they can hold on to. the day of the expansionist Zionist are over.

Do you honestly believe that Israel is going to forever accept a situation where the former Palestine is split into 2 states, one for Jews and one for Arabs?

It's silly to try and squeeze two countries into one area of land and what's more it is sectarianist.

Even though there is some actions against renegade settlers and the recent violence in Hebron if you look at the overall picture over the last 60 years it sure looks expansionist to me.

And regards this age old argument that it's OK to steal land by winning it by war, there is a big difference between winning a war and taking over the administration and/or changing national boundaries and actually stealing homes and land off ordinary people by intimidating them or physically turfing them out.

Thunder

7th December 2008, 03:37 PM

Do you honestly believe that Israel is going to forever accept a situation where the former Palestine is split into 2 states, one for Jews and one for Arabs? .

yes. absolutely. Israel is a democracy and if the govt. decides to give 95% of the West Bank back to the Palestinians, there will be protests, there may be violence, but in the end, the Israeli people will understand that it is in their best interest.

now, if Israel gives them back 95% of the West Bank, and the Arabs use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks upon Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Beersheeba, then Israel will have every right to strike back...with everything it deems neccessary.

In the end, for better or for worse, I still have faith in Israeli democracy. I wish I could say the same for Palestine.

Thunder

7th December 2008, 03:45 PM

And by the way, not only can Alex Jones' hatred of Jews not be concealed, but his hatred of American can also not be concealed:

http://www.infowars.com/?p=6401#comment-650565

if I had a nickle for every time Prisonplanet blaimed the United States for this attack..or that attack...WITHOUT EVIDENCE...I'd be one wealthy Jew.

skepticalcriticalguy

7th December 2008, 03:54 PM

Ahhh..Alex Jones hates corruption!!! Now i understand.

Is this why he constantly appears on Kremlin funded "Russia Today" and constantly takes Putin's side in the Georgian conflict? Because he "hates corruption"?

You are aware that Putin is responsible for the worst false-flag attack in Europe...right?

Oh, reaaaaaly?! So false flags do happen! Just never committed by the "good guys": Britain, USA, Israel.

fullflavormenthol

7th December 2008, 03:56 PM

yes. absolutely. Israel is a democracy and if the govt. decides to give 95% of the West Bank back to the Palestinians, there will be protests, there may be violence, but in the end, the Israeli people will understand that it is in their best interest.

now, if Israel gives them back 95% of the West Bank, and the Arabs use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks upon Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Beersheeba, then Israel will have every right to strike back...with everything it deems neccessary.

In the end, for better or for worse, I still have faith in Israeli democracy. I wish I could say the same for Palestine.
I like how people want to blame Israel for everything as if it isn't comprised of many different viewpoints. I also like how they ignore Israel's history of actually giving land back once a threat has been eliminated. Golan heights anyone? A nation has a moral right to defend themselves, and yes sometimes you have to occupy land that is next door if that land is used to lanch attacks against your own people. The problem is that there are people among the Palestinians that don't want any Jews in the middle east, at all. Nothing Israel does is good enough for some people. Israel builds a wall, and that is evil? Even though such a wall might actually expediate the process of returning lands, it still isn't good enough. Over time I have realized that there are some that hate the wall because they don't want any Jews living there. Well sorry. Given the history of oppression to the Hebrew people, they need at least one place on Earth in which they can defend themselves from everyone else on Earth that seems to attempt to kill them all every so many centuries. Just my two cents.

Thunder

7th December 2008, 03:59 PM

Oh, reaaaaaly?! So false flags do happen! Just never committed by the "good guys": Britain, USA, Israel.

no. false-flags can happen by any nation....at any time.

the difference between 9-11 and the apartment bombings in Russia, is there is HARD EVIDENCE against Putin and the FSU...and no real evidence against Bush and the Neo-Cons.

sorry charlie.

Doctor Evil

7th December 2008, 04:10 PM

I like how people want to blame Israel for everything as if it isn't comprised of many different viewpoints. I also like how they ignore Israel's history of actually giving land back once a threat has been eliminated. Golan heights anyone?

Perhaps you meant the Sinai peninsula? Israel and Syria do not have a peace treaty yet, and Israel still holds the Golan heights.

Tin Foil Timothy

7th December 2008, 04:49 PM

I like how people want to blame Israel for everything as if it isn't comprised of many different viewpoints. I also like how they ignore Israel's history of actually giving land back once a threat has been eliminated. Golan heights anyone? A nation has a moral right to defend themselves, and yes sometimes you have to occupy land that is next door if that land is used to lanch attacks against your own people. The problem is that there are people among the Palestinians that don't want any Jews in the middle east, at all. Nothing Israel does is good enough for some people. Israel builds a wall, and that is evil? Even though such a wall might actually expediate the process of returning lands, it still isn't good enough. Over time I have realized that there are some that hate the wall because they don't want any Jews living there. Well sorry.

You sound like someone who has a real one sided view yourself.

Most of us well appreciate that many Israelis have no desire to persecute Palestinians, especially as many of their ancestors were persecuted themselves.

Of course their are some Palestinians that don't want any Jews in the Middle East. All groups of people have an extremist element. Some Israelis don't want any Arabs in the middle east

Given the history of oppression to the Hebrew people, they need at least one place on Earth in which they can defend themselves from everyone else on Earth that seems to attempt to kill them all every so many centuries. Just my two cents.

Everyone else on earth doesn't attempt to kill them all every so many centuries. Stop exaggerating.

No one has the right to claim lands where other people are/were already living. Even if some mythological scripture says so.

Some of us haven't a problem with the existence of a state called Israel. The problem is the method upon which it was created and expanded, without the respect of fellow human beings.

Tin Foil Timothy

7th December 2008, 04:51 PM

no. false-flags can happen by any nation....at any time.

the difference between 9-11 and the apartment bombings in Russia, is there is HARD EVIDENCE against Putin and the FSU...and no real evidence against Bush and the Neo-Cons.

sorry charlie.

Doesn't mean they haven't happened though. Don't forget the whole point of a false flag is to hide the evidence of it being a false flag by fabricating evidence that it was "the enemy wot did it"

Tin Foil Timothy

7th December 2008, 04:56 PM

fullflavormenthol

7th December 2008, 04:59 PM

Perhaps you meant the Sinai peninsula? Israel and Syria do not have a peace treaty yet, and Israel still holds the Golan heights.
You're right. Oops. I actually meant the Sinai, but put in Golan. Thanks for the correction.

fullflavormenthol

7th December 2008, 05:01 PM

Some of us haven't a problem with the existence of a state called Israel. The problem is the method upon which it was created and expanded, without the respect of fellow human beings.

Well too late. It aleady exists, and now the issue is should they lay down and die while people blow themselves up in an attempt to kill women and children? What is your opinion of child murder?

A peaceful solution should be found, but that would still mean that Israel would still exist, and has a right to defend itself.

Skeptic

8th December 2008, 04:37 PM

Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah and Hamas all use the term "zionist".

Yes, and all three Jews-control-the-world, holocaust-never-happened, protocols-are-true folks. Goes to show that self-described "anti-zionists" are, more often than not, simply genocidal conspiracy-theory antiemites.

Skeptic

8th December 2008, 04:48 PM

Some of us haven't a problem with the existence of a state called Israel. The problem is the method upon which it was created and expanded

Well, it was created by a UN decision that declared two states--Jewish and Arab--in Palestine. But the Arab world rejected this decision and started an all-out war with the goal of throwing the Jews into the sea.

As a result of the failure of this attempt, the refugee problem occured. It is the Arab world -- not Israel -- which is deliberately keeping the third and fourth generation of "refugees" in camps, solely to be used as demographic ammunition to destroy Israel.

Israel expanded in 1967 when, once again, the Arab world (this time Syria, Egypt, Jordan and Iraq) tried to annihilate Israel by war, and failed. Hence the "occupation".

So, Tin Foil Timothy, it is good to know you are against attempted genocide of the Jews and deliberate denial of human rights to millions of people, the Palestinian "refugees" (actually, their great- and great-great grandchildren, by now) simply out of hatered of Jews -- since THOSE are the main reasons for "the methods Israel was created and expanded".

Had the Arabs merely had accepted the 1947 partition plan, there would have been no refugees or occupation. But the Arabs insisted on genocidal war -- we all know that at the very least the expulsion of all Jews, and most likely their massacre to the last baby, would have been the result if the Arabs had won in 1948 or 1967.

Tin Foil Timothy

8th December 2008, 10:26 PM

Well, it was created by a UN decision that declared two states--Jewish and Arab--in Palestine. But the Arab world rejected this decision and started an all-out war with the goal of throwing the Jews into the sea.
.

No it didn't and you know it. I can understand some uneducated morons thinking the UN created Israel and even being a 100 years old, but you oughta know better. Israel created itself by self-declaring it's existence. The UN partition plan was just that, a plan.

Considering Jews and Arabs lived side by side for centuries before the Zionist movement decided to claim the land for Jews only I don't think the Arab response to Israel was actually about Jews was it? Otherwise they would have 'Thrown Jews into the Sea' well before 1948 wouldn't they?

No what's its about is the way Israel was created without regard to the people, specifically the Palestinians, who already lived there. All 700,000 of them.

This is not about anti-semtism, it's about the complete fact that people have been displaced and had their land appropriated. if that was done to you you'd fight back as well.

Ordinary people are hospitable and generally aren't racist. It's establishments that stir up these sectarianist divides for their own agendas. I'm well traveled and I've seen people off all race and groups getting on great. Including Jews and Arabs.

Tin Foil Timothy

8th December 2008, 10:32 PM

Had the Arabs merely had accepted the 1947 partition plan, there would have been no refugees or occupation. But the Arabs insisted on genocidal war -- we all know that at the very least the expulsion of all Jews, and most likely their massacre to the last baby, would have been the result if the Arabs had won in 1948 or 1967.

Why should they have accepted a plan that craps on them? Would you? No of course you wouldn't.

And hyping it up as a genocidal war for debate theatrics isn't helping. All wars are genocidal.

The way Israel was planned and set up was wrong. The people who did this didn't care about the Arab inhabitants of Palestine.

Stop blaming the Arabs for fighting back. They were just reacting to an injustice. People can't go around claiming land that doesn't belong to them whenever they feel like it even if some mythological religious scripture says so.

if the creation of Israel had been done with respect of the people living in the region things could have been a lot different.

If someone tried to turf me out of my house and land I'd fight them too.

gtc

8th December 2008, 10:34 PM

It's establishments that stir up these sectarianist divides for their own agendas.

Who or what are these 'establishments'?

Tin Foil Timothy

8th December 2008, 10:37 PM

Yes, and all three Jews-control-the-world, holocaust-never-happened, protocols-are-true folks. Goes to show that self-described "anti-zionists" are, more often than not, simply genocidal conspiracy-theory antiemites.

Complete rubbish. Most people who criticize the Zionist movement have nothing against people for being Jewish.

Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah and Hamas all use the term "zionist".

... and ergo everyone who uses the term Zionist is a racist? Gimme a break. That's single figure IQ stuff.

gtc

8th December 2008, 10:42 PM

Complete rubbish. Most people who criticize the Zionist movement have nothing against people for being Jewish.

There isn't much point criticising the Zionist movement now.

But you are right that many or most of those who criticise Israel aren't racist against Jews. On the other hand, quite a few are against Jews.

abenja1

8th December 2008, 11:13 PM

Why should they have accepted a plan that craps on them? Would you? No of course you wouldn't.

And hyping it up as a genocidal war for debate theatrics isn't helping. All wars are genocidal.

The way Israel was planned and set up was wrong. The people who did this didn't care about the Arab inhabitants of Palestine.

Stop blaming the Arabs for fighting back. They were just reacting to an injustice. People can't go around claiming land that doesn't belong to them whenever they feel like it even if some mythological religious scripture says so.

if the creation of Israel had been done with respect of the people living in the region things could have been a lot different.

If someone tried to turf me out of my house and land I'd fight them too.

Oh but of course when Russia when invaded Georgia you keep your mouth shut. It's hating Israel for the sake of Israel. And fighting back? Killing innocent people on buses, clubs, and kidnapping people and murdering people is not fighting back.

Thunder

9th December 2008, 09:09 AM

Complete rubbish. Most people who criticize the Zionist movement have nothing against people for being Jewish.
... and ergo everyone who uses the term Zionist is a racist? Gimme a break. That's single figure IQ stuff.

I will completaly honest with you here buddy. I am a pretty fair guy in my critisism, I believe. Many folks here will attest to my scathing arguments against Israel's racist policies, and I will continue to do so.

But I have to say, most of the folks I have encountered in person, and in internet forums, who hate Zionists/Zionist/Israel..do indeed also hold a few anti-Jewish views.

Either they think Jews control the USA...or Judaism is a racist and supports child-molestation...or Jews used to put Christian blood in their matzah...or the Holocaust didnt happen..or all Jews are rich.......some sort of anti-Jewish beliefs.

It is very...very..very sad and unfortunate..that standing up for the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people..and fighting for their humanity..has gotten mixed up with anti-Semitism. I wish it wasnt so, but this is the way things currently are.

As to "anyone who uses the term 'Zionist' is a racist?"..that is uttertly absurd. it all depends on the context of the usage.

if someone says "the Zionists run the USA".....he obviously means Jews.
if someone says "the Zionists run the banking system"..he obviously means Jews.

if someone says "the Zionists have nuclear weapons and treat the Palestinians like second-class citizens"..he obviously means Israelis.

if someone says "the Zionists demand that the world take their side and let them persecute the Palestinians"...he most likely means the Israelis.

see? context is everything.

Tin Foil Timothy

9th December 2008, 08:37 PM

I will completaly honest with you here buddy. I am a pretty fair guy in my critisism, I believe. Many folks here will attest to my scathing arguments against Israel's racist policies, and I will continue to do so.

But I have to say, most of the folks I have encountered in person, and in internet forums, who hate Zionists/Zionist/Israel..do indeed also hold a few anti-Jewish views.

I disagree. most people I meet in person or online Have no racist views whatsoever, yet they still criticise the Zioninst movement

Either they think Jews control the USA...or Judaism is a racist and supports child-molestation...or Jews used to put Christian blood in their matzah...or the Holocaust didnt happen..or all Jews are rich.......some sort of anti-Jewish beliefs.

Of course those people exist, but I would hardly call them a majority. More like a nasty minority.

It is very...very..very sad and unfortunate..that standing up for the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people..and fighting for their humanity..has gotten mixed up with anti-Semitism. I wish it wasnt so, but this is the way things currently are.

Yes it is the way things are. But obviously that doesn't make it right. I've been called an anti-semite by a multitude of different flavored morons for speaking up about the plight of the Palestinians, but Im' not going to let these idiots emotionally blackmail me into silence because they have some twisted notion of what Anti-Semitism means.

As to "anyone who uses the term 'Zionist' is a racist?"..that is uttertly absurd. it all depends on the context of the usage.

It is absurd, but note the OP of this thread .....

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

... the opening premise of the thread assumes anti-semitism because Alex Jones says 'Zionism'.

if someone says "the Zionists run the USA".....he obviously means Jews.
if someone says "the Zionists run the banking system"..he obviously means Jews.

if someone says "the Zionists have nuclear weapons and treat the Palestinians like second-class citizens"..he obviously means Israelis.

if someone says "the Zionists demand that the world take their side and let them persecute the Palestinians"...he most likely means the Israelis.

see? context is everything.

But of course these morons can't see that if someone means 'Zionists' They actually mean, the vast majority of the time, Zionists.

I remember watching a documentary some time ago, where a woman from the ADL exposed the typical ADL agenda when she said.....

".. 'I only dislike these Jews. I don't dislike all Jews, I just dislike these Jews'..."

She was basically saying that anyone who dislikes some Jews is really hiding the that they dislike all Jews. Which is crap as it opens up the opportunity to label anyone anti-semitic for criticizing anyone ( or a group of people ) who happen to be Jewish.

To keep this thread on topic..... Alex Jones obviously sees or perceives to see organizations that are Jewish or Israeli based behaving in a way that he dislikes. but does that mean he hates/dislikes Jews? No of course not.

So yes you are right that it's absurd to follow the statement...

"if someone says "the Zionists run the USA".....he obviously means Jews."

The ADL are even worse. They work on the crap that if you only dislike some Jews you really mean you dislike all Jews.

The ADL should spend their energy concentrating on fighting real racism, not political criticism. But then I believe that the primary role of the ADL is just that. To deflect political criticism of the Zionist movement.

Tin Foil Timothy

9th December 2008, 08:47 PM

Well too late. It aleady exists, and now the issue is should they lay down and die while people blow themselves up in an attempt to kill women and children? What is your opinion of child murder?

A peaceful solution should be found, but that would still mean that Israel would still exist, and has a right to defend itself.

Child murder? That's a broad question and could equally be applied to the poor Lebanese child blown to pieces by an Isreali manufactured and Israeli dropped cluster bomblet on Lebanon in 2006.

And if you want a discussion on who was largely responsible for the deliberate derailment of the ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah in 2006, against the majority International feelings which allowed Israel to drop over 3,000,000 cluster bomblets on Lebanon then feel free to start a thread about it.

You should be careful when using an emotionally charged issue like Child murder to bolster your argument. It might just weaken your argument.

I condemn the murder of innocent civilians by anyone. if we are going to discuss the murder of Innocent civilians, then the Palestinians are way way way down on the list of guilty parties.

MarkCorrigan

10th December 2008, 12:48 AM

I condemn the murder of innocent civilians by anyone. if we are going to discuss the murder of Innocent civilians, then the Palestinians are way way way down on the list of guilty parties.

IF by this you mean the Israeli's kill more, then yes, you are correct.

Although, if the person who is firing rockets at you is hiding in say, a large civilian area, then it's pretty hard to fire back without hitting someone.

Thunder

10th December 2008, 02:47 PM

I condemn the murder of innocent civilians by anyone. if we are going to discuss the murder of Innocent civilians, then the Palestinians are way way way down on the list of guilty parties.

what do you think about the deliberate murder of non-combatants, by the Palestinians, on buses, trains, and in pizzarias? is this justified by house demolitions?

is a one Palestinian house worth one Jewish life?

Skeptic

10th December 2008, 03:02 PM

No it didn't and you know it. I can understand some uneducated morons thinking the UN created Israel and even being a 100 years old, but you oughta know better.

Sorry, TFT, I am correct. Calling me an "uneducated moron" for stating the obvious facts will not change that.

As Israel's declaration of independence makes quite clear, it was created on May 15th, 1948, as the British mandate ended, in accordance to the UN decision of Nov. 29th, 1947, for establishing two states, Jewish and Arab, after the end of the said mandate. You can also read the UN decision, or Britian's official decision to end the British mandate on that date. States can hardly be created in a LESS "self-declared" manner than that.

(What's more, even Israel's declaration of independence says that despite "the bloody attacks on us which have been going on for months" by the Arabs, Israel is still "offering its hands in peace" to the Arabs -- i.e., accepting the UN decision for two states -- even as the Arab war of annihilation on the Jews started. Again, the decleration of independence merely summarizes the obvious truth that is known from many other sources.)

Since you start from a totally false premise, the rest of your conclusions naturally have little to do with reality. Of course, you could also ask my grandparents, who were there on both those dates as eyewitnesses.

As for this not being about the Jews -- well, the Arab battle cry was to "throw the Jews into the sea" and "Itbah el-Yahud" (Butcher the Jews). Sounds pretty much "about the Jews" to me. Whenever a town fell into Arab hands, like the old city of Jerusalem during the war of independence, or Hebron during the 1928 riots, they naturally ethnically cleansed it of ALL Jews by deportation and massacre -- despite the fact that the people who lived in those towns were, more often than not, exactly those anti-Zionist, anti-nationalist Jews of the "old settlement" (Yishuv Yashan, pre-Zionist Orthodox Jews) which, allegedly, the Arabs had nothing against.

Seems like they had something against the Jews n'est sais-pas?

Anyway, you didn't really answered my question, to wit: what would have happened to the Jews had the Arabs won the 1948 or 1967 war? Please, no excuses. A direct answer. AFTER you give a direct answer -- which, I suspect is that, as you know very well, all the Jews would have been killed or expelled, Zionist or not -- THEN we can start discussion the "roots of the conflict" issues, Okay?

But let's get the direct answer to my question first, a thing most folks here keep avoiding. The reason is obvious: once the fact that the Arabs did, and many still do, indeed, want to genocide and/or expel the Jews, (Zionist or not) is established, all the "roots of the conflict" and "historical injustice to the Palestinian people" on these forums are seem as what they really are: in effect, a discussion of exactly why the Jews have it coming to them to be killed and expelled, accepting the killing and expulsion itself as either an inevitable sad necessity, or even a moral requirement for justice.

Skeptic

10th December 2008, 03:26 PM

About criticizing Israel: once again, in ethics intent matter. Is your goal to criticize Israel's actions, or is your "criticism" in effect that its very existence is a crime to be rectified?

Tin Foil Timothy

10th December 2008, 06:40 PM

what do you think about the deliberate murder of non-combatants, by the Palestinians, on buses, trains, and in pizzarias? is this justified by house demolitions?

is a one Palestinian house worth one Jewish life?

I think I've stated on more than on occasion that I condemn the killing of all innocent life. I'll ignore your house-life comparison as it's not even a tenable issue and quite repulsive really

Thunder

10th December 2008, 06:45 PM

you are right...it is quite repulsive that the Palestinians blow up innocent civilians after Israelis smash holes in walls.

Tin Foil Timothy

10th December 2008, 06:56 PM

Sorry, TFT, I am correct. Calling me an "uneducated moron" for stating the obvious facts will not change that.

As Israel's declaration of independence makes quite clear, it was created on May 15th, 1948, as the British mandate ended, in accordance to the UN decision of Nov. 29th, 1947, for establishing two states, Jewish and Arab, after the end of the said mandate. You can also read the UN decision, or Britian's official decision to end the British mandate on that date. States can hardly be created in a LESS "self-declared" manner than that.

Well neither the Jews or the Arabs accepted the UN partition plan. Israel declared itself into existence when the British mandate ended because the ending of the Mandate left Palestine, erm, without a mandate

(What's more, even Israel's declaration of independence says that despite "the bloody attacks on us which have been going on for months" by the Arabs, Israel is still "offering its hands in peace" to the Arabs -- i.e., accepting the UN decision for two states -- even as the Arab war of annihilation on the Jews started. Again, the decleration of independence merely summarizes the obvious truth that is known from many other sources.)

We all know that the Official Israel position on accepting the two states wasn't the real intention of Isael

Since you start from a totally false premise, the rest of your conclusions naturally have little to do with reality. Of course, you could also ask my grandparents, who were there on both those dates as eyewitnesses.

As for this not being about the Jews -- well, the Arab battle cry was to "throw the Jews into the sea" and "Itbah el-Yahud" (Butcher the Jews). Sounds pretty much "about the Jews" to me. Whenever a town fell into Arab hands, like the old city of Jerusalem during the war of independence, or Hebron during the 1928 riots, they naturally ethnically cleansed it of ALL Jews by deportation and massacre -- despite the fact that the people who lived in those towns were, more often than not, exactly those anti-Zionist, anti-nationalist Jews of the "old settlement" (Yishuv Yashan, pre-Zionist Orthodox Jews) which, allegedly, the Arabs had nothing against.

Seems like they had something against the Jews n'est sais-pas?

I've never argued that Fundamentalist Arabs aren't Anti-Jewish, Similarly Fundamentalist Jews are Anti-Arab

Anyway, you didn't really answered my question, to wit: what would have happened to the Jews had the Arabs won the 1948 or 1967 war? Please, no excuses. A direct answer. AFTER you give a direct answer -- which, I suspect is that, as you know very well, all the Jews would have been killed or expelled, Zionist or not -- THEN we can start discussion the "roots of the conflict" issues, Okay?

But let's get the direct answer to my question first, a thing most folks here keep avoiding. The reason is obvious: once the fact that the Arabs did, and many still do, indeed, want to genocide and/or expel the Jews, (Zionist or not) is established, all the "roots of the conflict" and "historical injustice to the Palestinian people" on these forums are seem as what they really are: in effect, a discussion of exactly why the Jews have it coming to them to be killed and expelled, accepting the killing and expulsion itself as either an inevitable sad necessity, or even a moral requirement for justice.

Jews and Arabs lived side by side for centuries in Palestine before all this started. Considering the roots of the conflict issues go back not only to the Balfour declaration and his Contradictory assurances, which really sealed the fate of the Palestinians but way back to the start of the Zionist movement and the seed of the plan to create Israel, you cannot go on about any post 1948 Arab-Israeli wars being the root of the conflict. Because you know very well it goes back much further.

Would Jews have either lost their lives or been expelled had the Arabs won? Yes of course. But then if you create a country on top of where other people are living and then displace them, often violently, then you shouldn't be surprised if people attack you for it.

So again I ask those who defend the actions of Israel. If you were an ordinary peace loving Palestinian who was displaced, whose traditional family home and way of love had been bulldozed and settlements built over it, and/or now living in a ghetto in Gaza beholden to the lifelines you should be grateful to Israel for, what would you do? How would you feel?

Tin Foil Timothy

10th December 2008, 06:57 PM

And I note that still no one has provided any links to infowars showing Alex Jones to be a racist. Didn't think so.

Thunder

10th December 2008, 06:59 PM

sure there are. there are tons of articles at Prisonplanet that show a pattern of anti-Semitism. you just choose not to accept the truth.

no one here thinks Alex wants to kill Jews. but he is a bigot. against Jews, Hispanics, and others.

Tin Foil Timothy

12th December 2008, 10:42 AM

sure there are. there are tons of articles at Prisonplanet that show a pattern of anti-Semitism. you just choose not to accept the truth.

Oh really?

I have to see evidence before determining it to the truth.

And with that in mind, if there are tons of articles at infowars showing Alex Jones then it would be really easy for people to provide links wouldn't it?

And especially as there are those here who spring into some rabid rampage to paint anyone even mentioning the word Zionist as a racist, I would have thought they would jump at the chance to expose Alex Jones.

I've seen one link in this thread. One poster called dudalb even proclaimed people had posted t9ons of links here. But they don't exist. Delusions obviously.

So I can only assume that given the lack of evidence presented here that Alex Jones, while no doubt being full of Conspiracy theories about the Establishment and perhaps particularly the Zionist element of that, is not a racist.

Like I say already, the whole premise of this thread is a fraud. Lies have been used to try and give the thread some credibility but have only served to cause the opposite. And the opening post seems to rely on some immature glee at declaring someone a racist because he said "Zionist" instead of "NWO"

Thunder

12th December 2008, 08:33 PM

Oh really?

I have to see evidence before determining it to the truth.

And with that in mind, if there are tons of articles at infowars showing Alex Jones then it would be really easy for people to provide links wouldn't it?

And especially as there are those here who spring into some rabid rampage to paint anyone even mentioning the word Zionist as a racist, I would have thought they would jump at the chance to expose Alex Jones.

I've seen one link in this thread. One poster called dudalb even proclaimed people had posted t9ons of links here. But they don't exist. Delusions obviously.

So I can only assume that given the lack of evidence presented here that Alex Jones, while no doubt being full of Conspiracy theories about the Establishment and perhaps particularly the Zionist element of that, is not a racist.

Like I say already, the whole premise of this thread is a fraud. Lies have been used to try and give the thread some credibility but have only served to cause the opposite. And the opening post seems to rely on some immature glee at declaring someone a racist because he said "Zionist" instead of "NWO"

i have seen many many articles over the years that falsely accuse the Mossad and israel of war crimes, false-flags, etc. unfortunatly, prisonplanet's search function makes it difficult to find these articles. but i will try.

Thunder

12th December 2008, 08:54 PM

1337m4n

13th December 2008, 07:50 AM

Ignore is a very useful feature, parky. But if you insist on continuing to argue with this racist twit, present him with this. Present it to him over and over again until it sinks in.

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:

He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:

manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance

the venom of his Jewish arrogance

Jewish arrogance

Jewish arrogance

Jewish arrogance

Jewish arrogance

Thunder

13th December 2008, 08:02 AM

jewish arrogance..

jewish arrogance...

jewish arrogance..

jewish arrogance...

I'm sorry, am I supposed to see anti-Semitism here?

:)

all kidding aside, when you post an article on your website, that is clearly anti-Semitic, you are associating yourself with anti-Semitism.

Tin Foil Timothy

13th December 2008, 05:21 PM

Ignore is a very useful feature, parky. But if you insist on continuing to argue with this racist twit, present him with this. Present it to him over and over again until it sinks in.

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

That insult was uncalled for. Grow up dude.

I've already addressed that link further back in the thread. It's utterly moronic to judge someone as being a rabid racist just because he used the term Jewish Arrogance. It doesn't mean he hates or dislikes people for being Jewish.

1337m4n you oughta try an intelligent argument.

Tin Foil Timothy

13th December 2008, 05:49 PM

these are just a few of the many articles, published by Prisonplanet and Infowars, where the Mossad and Israel is falsely accuse of war crimes and false-flags, without any real evidence, whatsoever.

clearly, they have an obsession with blaiming Israel and the Mossad with everything that ever goes wrong with the world.

some, choose to believe that this has NOTHING to do with Israel being a Jewish state. others, however, see the pattern and precident of history, and understand that when you blaim Jews again..and again..and again..for crimes without any evidence, the fact that they are Jews ALWAYS is the motivating factor.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2007/300507phonytape.htm

An article about 1 person, Adam Pearlman

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/cossiga_ex_italian_pres_intel_agencies_know_911_in side_job.htm

views of Francesco Cossiga

http://www.jonesreport.com/article/03_08/060308_bali_bomber.html

Bali bomber claims they "were aided by the CIA, KGB or Mossad."

http://www.truthnews.us/?p=1561

Adam Pearlman again.

http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/070906_iran_us_ordered.html

Views of The Supreme Commander of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps

http://infowars.net/articles/april2007/230407vans.htm

Two detained Israelis were confirmed to be Mossad by the FBI and the CIA.

http://infowars.net/articles/november2008/271108Mossad.htm

A story ripped from another site. http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/9310

http://www.infowars.com/?p=6264

A report of the Turkish daily newspaper, Milliyet

http://www.infowars.com/articles/London_attack/mossad_chief_reveals_too_much.htm

fair comment, how did he know?

-------------------------------------------------

Out of the hundreds of articles Alex Jones has published is that the best you can do Parky? Appalling.

Can you refute the claims made in those articles? Do you have evidence that all those articles are bogus.

And you paint an untruthful picture when you accuse Jones of ALWAYS blaming people who are Jewish.

And we've covered this already. Someone having an obsession against Mossad does NOT mean they hate or Dislike Jews.

This thread continues to be a complete joke and little children calling me racist twits is only causing it to descend further into a pit of fecal matter.

The thread was supposed to be full of 'tons of links' according to dudlab. Which was complete baloney.

And pasting "jewish Arrogance" a quintillion times doesn't add one iota of strength to an already failed argument.

Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist and has a career built upon publishing theories and reports on anything linked to NWO and other alleged Establishment Plots. He might be a complete nutjob. But he's not a racist and neither am I.

Thunder

13th December 2008, 07:01 PM

An article about 1 person, Adam Pearlman
views of Francesco CossigaBali bomber claims they "were aided by the CIA, KGB or Mossad."

Adam Pearlman again.

Views of The Supreme Commander of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps

Two detained Israelis were confirmed to be Mossad by the FBI and the CIA.

A story ripped from another site. http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/9310

A report of the Turkish daily newspaper, Milliyet

fair comment, how did he know?

-------------------------------------------------
Out of the hundreds of articles Alex Jones has published is that the best you can do Parky? Appalling.

Can you refute the claims made in those articles? Do you have evidence that all those articles are bogus.

And you paint an untruthful picture when you accuse Jones of ALWAYS blaming people who are Jewish.

And we've covered this already. Someone having an obsession against Mossad does NOT mean they hate or Dislike Jews.

This thread continues to be a complete joke and little children calling me racist twits is only causing it to descend further into a pit of fecal matter.

The thread was supposed to be full of 'tons of links' according to dudlab. Which was complete baloney.

And pasting "jewish Arrogance" a quintillion times doesn't add one iota of strength to an already failed argument.

Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist and has a career built upon publishing theories and reports on anything linked to NWO and other alleged Establishment Plots. He might be a complete nutjob. But he's not a racist and neither am I.

The anti-Zionist, left-wing and conspiracy leaning Forward newpaper claims that the FBI said these guys were Mossad, and its 100% true??

give me a break. The Forward provided no evidence for their accusation, and no newspaper or tv channel agreed with their statemant.

Prisonplanet and Infowars posted several news articles that were anti-Semitic in nature. This means that they supported the content of these articles, regardless if they wrote them or not.

There is more to being anti-Semitic then just wearing a swastika and saying "Sieg Heil".

Tin Foil Timothy

13th December 2008, 08:38 PM

There is more to being anti-Semitic then just wearing a swastika and saying "Sieg Heil".

Please don't patronize me Parky.

The truth of the articles is not the point. What's under question is whether Alex Jones hates/dislikes people for being Jewish.

And still no one can provide any reasonable argument or evidence to support that.

I'm not asserting that Alex Jones isn't obsessed with the NWO, Mossad, CIA, FBI and other Establishment groups, so posting loads of links to him accusing the Mossad or publishing articles where others have claimed the Mossad are responsible for various events is only telling me something I already know.

And you of all people should be above the childish repeating of 'Jewish Arrogance' we have seen elsewhere.

Tin Foil Timothy

13th December 2008, 08:42 PM

Prisonplanet and Infowars posted several news articles that were anti-Semitic in nature. This means that they supported the content of these articles, regardless if they wrote them or not.

Oh and please use the proper definition of racism, not the ADL's agenda version of racism which extends the definition beyond prejudice to include political criticism.

gtc

14th December 2008, 02:54 AM

abenja1

14th December 2008, 04:32 AM

Hey Parky. Don't forget you're arguing with a person who lives in a world when Israel breathes, he throws a hissy fit. In his world, no other country has done any wrong, except Israel. Israel is the only evil country in TFT's world

Trojan_Jockey

14th December 2008, 09:00 AM

Thunder

14th December 2008, 04:54 PM

And you of all people should be above the childish repeating of 'Jewish Arrogance' we have seen elsewhere.

wow, now you're calling me an arrogant Jew. I thought you were not an anti-Semite?

Thunder

14th December 2008, 04:56 PM

Oh and please use the proper definition of racism, not the ADL's agenda version of racism which extends the definition beyond prejudice to include political criticism.

critisism of Israel and Zionism, that is based in hatred and disrespect of Jews, is a form of racism.

and by the way, when you re-post anti-Jewish articles on your website, it means that you clearly have no problem with and advocate the content of those articles, including their anti-Jewish sentiments.

comprende Timmy?

Tin Foil Timothy

14th December 2008, 05:18 PM

critisism of Israel and Zionism, that is based in hatred and disrespect of Jews, is a form of racism.

Criticism of Israel and Zionism is not racism, it's political criticism.

Hatred for Jews is Racism.

Just because those racists who hate Jews ALSO criticize Israel and Zionism does not make cirticism of Israel and Zionism racist.

comprende Parky?

and by the way, when you re-post anti-Jewish articles on your website, it means that you clearly have no problem with and advocate the content of those articles, including their anti-Jewish sentiments.

comprende Timmy?

Sure I 'comprende', but there's no evidence of Alex Jones publishing racist articles on his websites.

Tin Foil Timothy

14th December 2008, 05:20 PM

wow, now you're calling me an arrogant Jew. I thought you were not an anti-Semite?

WTF? :jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

Where have I called you an Arrogant Jew?

You're gonna have to explain that one buddy. That's a serious claim, and one which there is no evidence whatsoever.

gtc

14th December 2008, 05:31 PM

wow, now you're calling me an arrogant Jew. I thought you were not an anti-Semite?

Apparently he is allowed to suggest that Jews tend to be arrogant but you (as a Jew) aren't allowed to point out that he is wrong.

I'd suggest that he thinks it is 'uppitty' for Jews to consider themselves to be no worse than everyone else but that is the wrong stereotype.

gtc

14th December 2008, 05:41 PM

Parky,

I do have to defend TFT here. It's entirely possible that he considers you to be one of the few Jews who aren't arrogant. However, your continued insistence that Jews are no worse than anyone else is likely to get you marked down as 'arrogant' sooner or later.

Tin Foil Timothy

14th December 2008, 05:50 PM

Apparently he is allowed to suggest that Jews tend to be arrogant but you (as a Jew) aren't allowed to point out that he is wrong.

I'd suggest that he thinks it is 'uppitty' for Jews to consider themselves to be no worse than everyone else but that is the wrong stereotype.

Stop stirring up crap gtc. I could care less whether Parky is a Jew, a Russian, A Frenchman or even a damn Martian

Parky,

I do have to defend TFT here. It's entirely possible that he considers you to be one of the few Jews who aren't arrogant. However, your continued insistence that Jews are no worse than anyone else is likely to get you marked down as 'arrogant' sooner or later.

I and just caught the troll crap above in the topic review. Give it a rest.

Thunder

14th December 2008, 06:29 PM

Sure I 'comprende', but there's no evidence of Alex Jones publishing racist articles on his websites.

Um, excuse me, but Prisonplanet published an article that refered to "jewish arrogance" and refered to a "Jewish New World Order" and "Jewish supremacy".

that was clearly an anti-Jewish (anti-Semitic) article. and by republishing it, Prisonplanet was supporting and condoning such views.

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

are you trying to tell us that this article is NOT anti-Semitic?

what more do you need to read for you to label it anti-Semitism? accusations of Deicide?

man, some people are thick as wood and stiff-necked as Lady Liberty.

whats next? is Timothy gonna tell is that statemants like "arrogant Jews" and "Jewish New World Order" and "Jewish supremacy"..is NOT anti-Semitic??

gtc

14th December 2008, 07:18 PM

I think the general idea is that it isn't anti-semitic to hate Jews.

Thunder

14th December 2008, 07:31 PM

Tin Foil Timothy

14th December 2008, 09:52 PM

Tin Foil Timothy- you say you are not anti-Semitic, over and over again. You are simply defending Alex Jones against unfounded accusations of racism.

Can you kindly tell us then....why it is that you have more then 700 posts..and almost ALL of them are in topics of a Jewish subject matter?

Are you just an innocent Judeophile...or there something else going on here?

hmmmmm....

At least 400 of those posts have been consumed in battling against cyber-morons who falsely accuse me of racism and strawman arguments.

The rest of have been consumed battling people who dumbly think Israel is only defending itself against the Palestinians and either cannot or refuse to acknowledge that the Zionist agenda is to take the whole of Palestine.

I goto bed at peace with the knowledge that I am not a racist in any shape or form.

But lemme tell you this. Use some common sense FFS. What do I have to gain from hiding my real views? NOTHING. I don't have to keep my views quiet for fear of getting fired or losing some standing in my community. This is an anonymous forum.

So look, if I was a racist and I hated Jews I wouldn't hesitate in telling you. In fact due to the anonymity of this forum I would be taking advantage of that to fully broadcast any racist views I had.

I have a particular interest in the Palestine-Israel conflict. While the Palestinians as a group haven't acted totally morally in this conflict they have acted out of desperation because of the Zionist Agenda in it's aims to take over all of Palestine without regard or respect for those who were already living there. This is because of a simple care for humanity, and nothing whatsoever to do with any prejudices against Jewish people.

Now you can waste as much time as you like speculating whether I am racist or not, as I log off this forum daily with a clear conscience.

Now onto the only link....

The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:

Of course that paragraph is Jewish centric but it still doesn't mean Alex Jones hates or dislikes Jews

Is anyone who talks about the British Empire or the (covert) American Empire a racist? of course not.

This is what pisses me off. This absurd and stupid notion that anyone who focuses upon any behavior or a subject that has a common theme of Jewishness is somehow a racist. It's baloney!

Alex Jones always seems to blame Mossad so he's a racist? Come on!! There are countless people who blame the CIA for everything. it doesn't mean they think Americans are an inferior people.

Most of my 700 posts ( is it that many! :eye-poppi ) are about Israel. Ergo I'm a racist? Just as stupid.

Some of you people should listen to yourselves. You sound as ridiculous as the ADL.

Parky, you even accused a judge in another thread of being racist because he made a bail ruling because of possible immunity due to absconding to Israel. Listen to yourself FFS.

You and others here sound like you have a chip on your shoulder. Israel and people who are Jewish are not above criticism, and if you are criticized more often than not it's because of your behavior, not because you are Jewish.

I'm not stupid. I'm aware that racists do exist, but in my experience they are in a small minority.

Alex Jones should choose his words more carefully. But one paragraph in one article is not enough to brand someone a racist.

And btw... Michael Ledeen is a nasty piece of work. Listen to his words... from the article you linked "We must destroy them to advance our historic mission."

You should be condemning Ledeen, not Jones

Tin Foil Timothy

14th December 2008, 09:53 PM

I think the general idea is that it isn't anti-semitic to hate Jews.

You think you are so smart don't you?

Thunder

15th December 2008, 06:33 AM

Of course that paragraph is Jewish centric but it still doesn't mean Alex Jones hates or dislikes Jews

Is anyone who talks about the British Empire or the (covert) American Empire a racist? of course not.

jewish centric? no. its is anti-Jewish. it is anti-jewish. why do you make believe this is not so?

why do you make believe that reposting anti-semitic garbage doesn not mean you are agreeing with their views? one does not repost articles they disagree with...unless they specifically say so.

If Prisonplanet reposted an article that refered to lazy blacks, or stinking Arabs, or drunkin Irish, would you have a problem with that? I bet you would.

gtc

15th December 2008, 01:01 PM

I love the suggestion that it isn't anti-semitic to accuse Jews of being innately arrogant and stating that there is a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. It's just 'Jewish-centric'.

Thunder

15th December 2008, 02:14 PM

I love the suggestion that it isn't anti-semitic to accuse Jews of being innately arrogant and stating that there is a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. It's just 'Jewish-centric'.

yeah.

calling blacks stupid and lazy= racist.

calling hispanics lazy and all illegals= racist.

calling arabs and muslims terrorists and smelly= racist.

calling irish drunks= racist.

calling jews arrogant and supremacist= not racist??

gtc

18th December 2008, 05:27 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/18/israelandthepalestinians-pressandpublishing

There is an interesting exhibition in London called 'Cartoons and Extremism' which deals with images from the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

I thought these paragraphs were relevant:

The British Jewish philosopher Brian Klug has written helpfully on this point: "Critics often single Israel out unfairly, or defame the state, or criminalise it, and so on. All of which undoubtedly is biased. But is it necessarily anti-Semitic? No, it is not. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a tragic and bitter struggle. The issues are complex, passions inflamed, and the suffering in both populations is great. In such circumstances, there is bias on both sides.

"Then when is this bias anti-Semitic? Seen through the eyes of an anti-semite, Jews are essentially alien, powerful, cohesive, cunning, parasitic, and so on. Opposition to Israel or its government is anti-semitic when it employs some variation or other of this fantasy – just as criticism of Arabs is racist when it is based on the stock figure of the Arab as cunning, lying and degenerate, or as a hateful terrorist who attaches no value to human life."

They also mention Brazil's Latuff.

Without Rights

28th December 2008, 02:11 PM

Without having to debate whether or not anyone's kin were terrorist, how do you compare Bin Ladens to Rahm Emanuel's dad? Did Mr Emanuel plan to bring down america? What does Rahm have to do with a family that had at least one member openly admit his hate for our country? If you have a quote from an Emanuel doing just that, you would be helping me out by posting. Thx.

I have no quote from Rahm stating he hates America and that was not the point. Even if you don't, some would consider it troublesome to have the son of a terrorist group in a high position. Bin Laden is a terrorist and so is Rahm's dad. That is the only point. The article is not anti semetic. It only states that the author is troubled by that fact. It matters not whether they threatened America or not. This is America and if someone has issues with the son of a terrorist being in a high office and then writes an article about it expressing their discomfort with that fact, that doesn't make them a anti-Semite. That is the point that you skipped over.

Sword_Of_Truth

28th December 2008, 06:52 PM

Are you zionist jews proud that there has been 982 Palestinian children killed by Israel on 2000-2007? :mad:

And here comes the old fashioned Blood Libel.

I swear... the only thing harder than convincing a 9/11 twoofer that it's not 1934 is convincing him that it's not 1534 either. :p

Thunder

28th December 2008, 08:21 PM

Oh and the jews are? Jew Ariel Sharon started the Intifada. Sharon knew that what he did would insult other people but as of course he didn"t care. During the second Intifada Israeli settlers have killed over 47 palestinians. Are you zionist jews proud that there has been 982 Palestinian children killed by Israel on 2000-2007? :mad:

And how many Jewish children were killed by the Palestinians from 2000 to 2007?

JoeyDonuts

28th December 2008, 10:26 PM

calling irish drunks= racist reasonably accurate.

There. Fixed that for ya. Oh, and I am a Mick, and I'm saying there's a "wee dram" of truth in that one.

Most racial stereotypes are based on poking fun at a physical characteristic. Outside of Hassidic Jews and such, which are easy enough to pigeonhole because of their observant physical appearance, what does a Jew look like? That's not an easy question to answer. A lot of Israelis I've met don't look anything like what one would expect. Some look Irish. Some look German. Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill don't look "Jewish" to me, but there ya go.

[/derail]

Sword_Of_Truth

29th December 2008, 05:47 AM

Here's another one just today:

Israel Accused Of Massive War Crime Atrocities (http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-accused-of-massive-war-crime-atrocities.html#comments)

"Falk, United Nations Special Investigator for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, listed numerous actions by Israel that clearly break the rules of engagement codified in the Geneva Conventions."

Normally, in conspiracist mythology, the United Nations is the global government in utero. It's the pre-existing governmental infrastructure, with all the departments and agencies a modern government needs ready and waiting for the global elite to finally pulls their thumbs from their rectal sphincters and establish the NWO that they've been working towards for the past two centuries.

Long winded, multi-syllabic titles make for great appeal to authority arguments, but would Jones or his lap-dog Paul Watson make use of titles that include "United Nations" in them to subtly push their agenda on the reader given their hatred for the public face of the global socialist dictatorship?

Apparently they do when it's jews getting the shaft.

The Professor

2nd January 2009, 02:51 PM

Any of you guys bother to watch the movie INVINCIBLE?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0245171/

Thunder

3rd January 2009, 03:07 PM

T Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill don't look "Jewish" to me, but there ya go.

[/derail]

Neither does Jennifer Connely or Scarlett Johansen. God are they hot.

gtc

3rd January 2009, 03:11 PM

Are they actually jewish or do you just want to share the names of some hot women?

I'm not complaining, either option is fine.

Thunder

3rd January 2009, 07:54 PM

they are both 1/2 jewish. =)

skepticalfred

5th January 2009, 04:25 AM

<sarcastic> hitler was jewish. it must be a global conspiracy! </sarcastic>

The Professor

5th January 2009, 08:39 PM

The Banks just took you for almost 800 Billion ... Supposed to go to the Housing bailout ( You can BUY all the homes for less then 200 Billion or just fix the problem for 20B)
Who do you think gets the rest?
The banks just got over 780 Billion of your money. (For WHAT?)
Question...
Who owns these banks?

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!

Slayhamlet

5th January 2009, 11:19 PM

skepticalfred

6th January 2009, 07:59 AM

wow more anti-Semitic nonsense. I bet you think the protocols of Zion is a real book too.

fullflavormenthol

6th January 2009, 04:04 PM

wow more anti-Semitic nonsense. I bet you think the protocols of Zion is a real book too.
Well it is actually a real book, it is just full of nonsense is the problem.;)

gtc

6th January 2009, 04:13 PM

wow more anti-Semitic nonsense. I bet you think the protocols of Zion is a real book too.

Just to make sure we are all on the same page, Slayhamlet was making a joke.

skepticalfred

6th January 2009, 04:16 PM

haha ohh my bad :)

Tin Foil Timothy

6th January 2009, 04:35 PM

Still no evidence Alex Jones hates Jews then?

Predictable really. Starting this thread was surely one of the biggest JREF faux pas. :)

dudalb

6th January 2009, 05:28 PM

Still no evidence Alex Jones hates Jews then?

Predictable really. Starting this thread was surely one of the biggest JREF faux pas. :)

Funny, no one else here seems to agree with you. In fact, a lot of think you have shown that you have "issues" with the Jews.

1337m4n

6th January 2009, 07:36 PM

Still no evidence Alex Jones hates Jews then?

Predictable really. Starting this thread was surely one of the biggest JREF faux pas. :)

I envy your ability to shut out inconvenient evidence, evidence that damages your hero Jones. How do you do it? I wish I could shut out evidence like you; I would shut out evidence of gravity so I could fly.

Parky, gtc, dudalb, and I, have repeatedly been shoving evidence down your throat. One piece of evidence in particular. Let's see if you can find the one piece of evidence I am talking about. Hint, it is only two words long. I'll wait.

1337m4n

6th January 2009, 07:39 PM

At least 400 of those posts have been consumed in battling against cyber-morons who falsely accuse me of racism

I goto bed at peace with the knowledge that I am not a racist in any shape or form.

I just wanted everyone to see how those two statements (both made by Tin Foil Timothy, both in the same post) look next to each other.

Tin Foil Timothy must have a different definition of being at peace than I do. See, I haven't spent 400 posts battling something I am "at peace with" (I am at war, with lies, anti-intellectual speculation, and fantasy).

I hear Denial is a river in Egypt.

1337m4n

6th January 2009, 07:49 PM

Of course that paragraph is Jewish centric but it still doesn't mean Alex Jones hates or dislikes Jews

Is anyone who talks about the British Empire or the (covert) American Empire a racist? of course not.

Then you agree that you would suspect no racial bias from a hypothetical newspaper that wrote this:

A bank was robbed by a black man today. The robber, who was black, broke in at 9:30 this morning. After breaking in, the black robber pulled out a gun and waved it in the air with his black arm. The robber, who was black, then ordered everyone to get to the ground. The black robber took the people as hostages. He then pointed a black finger at the banker and ordered him to open the vault. As he did this, he was black. He ran into the vault, and stole all the money, and was black. He ran away, and as he was running away witnesses could see he was black. Witnesses described the robber as black. He, the robber, was black. Not much is known about the robber, other than the fact that he was black. If you have any information about the robber, who is black, please contact the authorities and tell them everything you know about this black robber. The robber is considered armed, dangerous, and black.

Oh BTW your two words, that you ignore, are in the paragraph you claim is only "Jewish-centric"; another hint for you, since your own intellect is no doubt insufficient to get the correct answer.

Tin Foil Timothy

6th January 2009, 08:13 PM

Funny, no one else here seems to agree with you. In fact, a lot of think you have shown that you have "issues" with the Jews.

A few people who haven't got any other recourse than to throw out a racism card based upon lies is hardly any form of consensus.

It's laughable that a huge mulitpage thread which was started with a big claim that Alex jones was Anti-Semitic has yet to provide any evidence that Alex Jones hates Jews. You even claimed that this thread contained tones of links to Alex jones anti-semitism and you continue to stand there with you head in the sand to that one even though people are laughing at you.

All we've been presented with is one link which shows an article which mentions 'Jewish arrogance'. hardly any proof that Jone's hates Jews is it?

But then you and the others shout Anti-semtism whether there's anything discriminatory towards Jews or not don't you. Like I say you have no skill in recognising Anti-semtism of how can anyone trust you to make an accurate analysis of myself, Alex Jones or anyone else.

Some idiots are even claiming he's my hero, even though I've stated a few times that I think Alex Jones is an Idiot.

I would expect Jewish people would be embarrassed and want nothing to do with you people.

You people throw out insults like anti-semitism not because you really think the target is anti-Semitic but because like a schoolboy you think it hurts the target of your name calling.

Your arguments are nothing more than a bunch of schoolkids who are desperataly trying to boost their own low self esteem by trying ( and failing ) to make themselves superior to anything that even remotely challenges their 1 bit thinking.

You could save yourselves a lot of typing by simply shouting "your mom!"- the level of intellect is roughly the same.

I've never witnessed such a lame bunch of cyber-warriors.

""Giggity Giggity! Jones said Jewish Arrogance, he hates Jews! Giggity Giggity!""

Seth Mcfarland could make a whole series out of it