Man, Alec Jones Is Not Even Hiding It..

[dudalb]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

[moon1969]

Did Alex Jones also claim that the Rothschild family rules the world? Jones did once interview David Mayer de Rothschild about global warming. Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah and Hamas all use the term "zionist".

[sleeplessdwarf]

I remember before I stopped listening to his crap, that a lot of his followers were bashing him for not talking enough about the jewish connection they believed were involved. To be honest, I see Jones as a man who does not believe in anything he uses on his show, and is instead purely in it for the money. I think he seen his movement going in a direction that he wasn't and changed course to keep the money train running. He is one pathetic piece of work.

[dudalb]

It's pretty obvious the appointment of Emmanuel as Obama's CHief of Staff is what triggered this outburst of hate at infowars.
You might be right ,Sleepless. I have noted the Twoofer movement is becoming more anti semitic.probably because they need a new target now that dubys's days in office are numbered.

[dudalb]

Did Alex Jones also claim that the Rothschild family rules the world? Jones did once interview David Mayer de Rothschild about global warming. Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah and Hamas all use the term "zionist".


Yeah, but Jones has never been quite so blatent about the "Zionists" being behind everything.

[LightinDarkness]

What I cannot understand is why so many people kill themselves over the office of the President. No matter who wins, our daily life is not going to change. Yet the woo's act like every single President is going to be the end of the world as we know it.

Its not even consistent anymore. Out of the 2 candidates, Obama is the person whose record shows that he is not stringently pro-Israel on everything like McCain is. So if the jewbs are behind everything, why did they put someone into power who doesn't support them as strongly as the other guy would?

I think the jews in power are getting a bit senile with their whole "rule the world" business.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

So if the jewbs are behind everything, why did they put someone into power who doesn't support them as strongly as the other guy would?


Because people were starting to catch on. They had to take a more subtle approach. :tinfoil

[CriticalThinking]

Let's take a look at the facts for once:

There are about 15 million jews in the world.

The rothschilds, the Warburgs and many other dynasties are Jews.

Alan Greenspan and Ben bernanke are Jews.

Henry Kissinger is a Jew.

U.S. Supports Israel like a little brother.

These are just a little itsy bit of the common facts.

What makes you think that a people with the population of 15 million can shape the world as it has/does?

Fun fact: My ethnicity has over 15 million people and we aren't even known to the common person, or even most informed people.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

I haven't heard what Alex Jones has had to say recently so I won't comment on whether he is being anti-semitic or not. infowars isn't a place I frequent

However it's wrong to equate Zionism and Jews as a freely exchangeable format. And criticism of Zionism as a movement in itself isn't anti-semitic. Also remember there are Jews that are against Zionism.

Disclaimer: I don't believe that "Jews are behind everything"

But when you ( and I mean you and Alex Jones and everyone else ) use the term "The Jews Are Behind Everything" what do you mean? What Jews? All of them? Or is this a specific group of people who happen to be Jewish?

Please explain.

There is a big difference between criticizing someone or a group of people because they are Jewish ( which is anti-semitic ) and criticizing a Jewish person or a group of Jewish People for their behavior ( not anti-semitic )

I bring this up because I am seeing a lot of criticism of Israel and pro-Israel lobbies being stifled because the race card is brought up every time. The ADL are a big problem in encouraging this.

I've suffered this myself on this forum although the accuser and myself have since thankfully resolved the issue.

And remember that those of you who are too quick to shout 'anti-semitism' are actually doing the real victims of anti-semitism a disservice. Because it seems these days that whenever a cry of anti-semitism is made you have to check whether it's real anti-semitism or not.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yeah, but Jones has never been quite so blatent about the "Zionists" being behind everything.

So why would that necessarily be anti-semitic?

[Praktik]

What I cannot understand is why so many people kill themselves over the office of the President. No matter who wins, our daily life is not going to change. Yet the woo's act like every single President is going to be the end of the world as we know it.

Its not even consistent anymore. Out of the 2 candidates, Obama is the person whose record shows that he is not stringently pro-Israel on everything like McCain is. So if the jewbs are behind everything, why did they put someone into power who doesn't support them as strongly as the other guy would?

I think the jews in power are getting a bit senile with their whole "rule the world" business.

Well, Rahm's appointment shows that Obama is not likely to really be less "pro-Israel" than McCain - maybe less "pro-likud", but there wont be a change in the fact America will still be strongly on-side w/ Israel. There was no "pro-Israel" and "anti-ISrael" candidate: there were two "pro-Israel" candidates.

The thing I don't get about the Alex Jones and anti-NWO theory generally is their lack of realism with regards to the implementation of whatever policies it is they'd like to see. Thats a murky spot given that its more of an "anti" movement than it is a "pro" movement - but you'd guess that underneath at least they want a Ron Paul style approach to foreign policy. We'll leave aside domestic policy given the cleavage between the libertarian and left-wing of this demographic.

So - you want a Ron Paul style foreign policy. A dismantling of American bases, a dismantling of the military industrial complex and so on...

Can't they see that before we can do that, we gotta work our way - slowly - towards that goal? Is there *any* sign in the current political environment that such an idea is even held by anyone considered "mainstream"?

So candidate X gets elected and they're immediately criticized as "stooges" for not immediately enacting their policies - when really, even if an Amy Goodman/Chomsky ticket made it to the white house they'd still have a congress of unknown composition to deal with, America would still have committments abroad and pressures abroad from friend and foe that necessitate a presence, the billions that course through the MIC keep a healthy chunk of America employed - how are we going to deal with that transition?

The list literally goes on and on. In my mind, they're missing the forest for the trees - hyperfocusing on individuals and their connections and even whatever occult practises they may be into - completely oblivious to the fact that the same systemic pressures that created those individuals would still be there if they were excised. A new crop of NWO Lizardmen would arise under those pressures. The political culture just isn't ready for those kind of drastic moves and they may never be. Trying to even picture such an environment in America challenges the mind and to be honest I can't even do it.

Of course, they're not really interested in the cohesiveness of their policies or their chances for implementation - there really is no single platform they adhere to. You got your "battle in seattle" left-wing with its myriad of internal conflicts, you have your right-wing extremists with a radically different idea of how the country should be run. They're all about being against the "elites", against the "corporations" and against the "NWO agenda" - and when they try to describe how those things work all they do is harp on things like the CFR and the Trilateral commission and bloodlines and the Rothschilds.

The CFR and the Trilateral comission are really just simple policy instruments - really banal in their workings when you get down to it. They are only a few among many influences on policy development - and you don't hear much about any of those other influences, how they may compete with the CFR etc...

The Rothschilds are only one among many wealthy and powerful families.

There's just a serious lack of depth in their analysis. Put simply, to criticize Obama for having establishment advisors and establishment support and campaign donations from lobbyists misses the fact that *any* winning candidate HAS to have those things. If thats your criteria for condemnation then there would never be any candidate that could escape it. Even one that would bring some of your ideas incrementally closer to actually happening.

The problem isn't Obama - or Brezinski - or the Rothschilds. Its the system mannnnnn! And I don't think I've ever come across a solid systemic analysis among the NWO True Believers.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Great post Praktik. :)

Especially the closing sentence.



The problem isn't Obama - or Brezinski - or the Rothschilds. Its the system mannnnnn! And I don't think I've ever come across a solid systemic analysis among the NWO True Believers.

The hasn't been a proper systemic analysis from what we'd call the Establishment either. And that's perhaps a bigger problem.

[Thunder]

However it's wrong to equate Zionism and Jews as a freely exchangeable format. .

why not? Right-wing Zionists do it all the time.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

why not? Right-wing Zionists do it all the time.

Do 2 wrongs make a right?

[Thunder]

Do 2 wrongs make a right?

what if it is basically not wrong?

if most jews are indeed Zionists...then how is it wrong?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

what if it is basically not wrong?

if most jews are indeed Zionists...then how is it wrong?

It's wrong when Anti-Semitism is used as ammunition to suppress criticism of the Zionist movement.

Most, well all, Republicans are Americans. No one says it's racist (Anti-American) to criticize them, even if the criticism comes from a non American.

[moon1969]

Still sometimes it is right. It was sad what happend to the jews during WW2 but what about all the victims of Joseph Stalin? Oh yeah right Stalin was with the good guys and Hitler was evil. Are jews more important than karelians? chechens? Stalin is the real evil. People say that Joseph Stalin killed 50 million people. It is anyoing how zionists always talk about holocaust this and holocaust that while Putin can have a victory day parade on every May 9th in Moscow to honour the war criminal Soviet soldiers. There might be something true what Jones is saying. For example many jews keep lying and blaming that Finland was with Hitler on 1939 when that is not true. Soviet Union attacked first, stole Karelia and drove out over 400 000 karelians. My grandfather lost him home in Karelia. Russia neved has never said that the winter war was wrong. Still jews have some special right about the holocaust. Bush always defending Putin. I don"t hate jews but karelians are also humans. Russia stole Karelia and that is a fact. What makes jews more important than those 400 000 karelians?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Still sometimes it is right. It was sad what happend to the jews during WW2 but what about all the victims of Joseph Stalin? Oh yeah right Stalin was with the good guys and Hitler was evil. Are jews more important than karelians? chechens? Stalin is the real evil. People say that Joseph Stalin killed 50 million people. It is anyoing how zionists always talk about holocaust this and holocaust that while Putin can have a victory day parade on every May 9th in Moscow to honour the war criminal Soviet soldiers. There might be something true what Jones is saying. For example many jews keep lying and blaming that Finland was with Hitler on 1939 when that is not true. Soviet Union attacked first, stole Karelia and drove out over 400 000 karelians. My grandfather lost him home in Karelia. Russia neved has never said that the winter war was wrong. Still jews have some special right about the holocaust. Bush always defending Putin. I don"t hate jews but karelians are also humans. Russia stole Karelia and that is a fact. What makes jews more important than those 400 000 karelians?

No one is more important than anyone else. Nastiness happens when people start thinking they are.

[Slayhamlet]

Still sometimes it is right. It was sad what happend to the jews during WW2 but what about all the victims of Joseph Stalin? Oh yeah right Stalin was with the good guys and Hitler was evil. Are jews more important than karelians? chechens? Stalin is the real evil. People say that Joseph Stalin killed 50 million people. It is anyoing how zionists always talk about holocaust this and holocaust that while Putin can have a victory day parade on every May 9th in Moscow to honour the war criminal Soviet soldiers. There might be something true what Jones is saying. For example many jews keep lying and blaming that Finland was with Hitler on 1939 when that is not true. Soviet Union attacked first, stole Karelia and drove out over 400 000 karelians. My grandfather lost him home in Karelia. Russia neved has never said that the winter war was wrong. Still jews have some special right about the holocaust. Bush always defending Putin. I don"t hate jews but karelians are also humans. Russia stole Karelia and that is a fact. What makes jews more important than those 400 000 karelians?

I'm sorry, but you'll have to explain better what the similarities between the Jewish holocaust and the resettlement of the Karelians actually are, because there don't appear to be very many. Ironically, it seems the 1948 Palestinian exodus "al-Nakba" more closely corresponds.

[SpiritMolecule]

It's wrong when Anti-Semitism is used as ammunition to suppress criticism of the Zionist movement.

Most, well all, Republicans are Americans. No one says it's racist (Anti-American) to criticize them, even if the criticism comes from a non American.

This is a really good point,

You have to understand here, at this forum, there is a real distaste for truthers and the people here will try to paint them as "stupid" or as "evil" as they possibly can.

Criticizing Zionism has nothing to do with the jewish population. Just like criticizing Neo-cons has nothing to do with the American or christian population.

:cool:

[1337m4n]

However it's wrong to equate Zionism and Jews as a freely exchangeable format.

We're not the ones doing that. It's Alex Jones and his ilk who are using "Zionist" interchangeably for "Jew". All we've ever done is point out this fact.

Think about it. When has any of Jones's "Zionist" comments been about ACTUAL Zionism? I'd be willing to bet Jones doesn't even know what the word means. It's his codeword for "Jew", so that he can spew hate without being called out on it. So that whenever he spews hate idiots will defend him saying "OMG HES NOT ATTACKING JEWS HES ATTACKING ZIONISTS LOLOLOL!!1!!!!!1111".

Fortunately, Jones's lies are easy to see through. Lying is not something he is particularly good at.

It is Truthers, not JREF, who accuse every Jewish person who holds political office of being a "Zionist".

It is Truthers, not JREF, who use Jewish names as a means of "identifying Zionists".

It is Truthers, not JREF, who "equate Zionism and Jews as a freely exchangeable format".

[Tin Foil Timothy]

This is a really good point,

You have to understand here, at this forum, there is a real distaste for truthers and the people here will try to paint them as "stupid" or as "evil" as they possibly can.

Yes I understand that. It's like a clash of civilizations. "You're either with us or with the twoofers"


Criticizing Zionism has nothing to do with the Jewish population. Just like criticizing Neo-cons has nothing to do with the American or christian population.


I thought Neocons were mainly Zionists?

But I get your point :)

[MaGZ]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

He has his Jew sidekick Bremes with him now, so he can get away with what he is saying.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

We're not the ones doing that. It's Alex Jones and his ilk who are using "Zionist" interchangeably for "Jew". All we've ever done is point out this fact.

Think about it. When has any of Jones's "Zionist" comments been about ACTUAL Zionism? I'd be willing to bet Jones doesn't even know what the word means. It's his codeword for "Jew", so that he can spew hate without being called out on it. So that whenever he spews hate idiots will defend him saying "OMG HES NOT ATTACKING JEWS HES ATTACKING ZIONISTS LOLOLOL!!1!!!!!1111".

Fortunately, Jones's lies are easy to see through. Lying is not something he is particularly good at.

It is Truthers, not JREF, who accuse every Jewish person who holds political office of being a "Zionist".

It is Truthers, not JREF, who use Jewish names as a means of "identifying Zionists".

It is Truthers, not JREF, who "equate Zionism and Jews as a freely exchangeable format".

Rubbish!

Most people I know who you would call "twoofers" have nothing against Jews whatsoever. They do criticise the Zionist movement.

All this 'codeword' BS is childish.

I'll condemn anyone for criticizing anyone because their race, sexuality or gender. But will speak up when political criticism is being labelled racism in order to stifle it.

I've never heard Alex Jones spew anything anti-semitical. But if you have evidence of him doing so then please present it and I'll be the first condemn him for it

[MaGZ]

Still sometimes it is right. It was sad what happend to the jews during WW2 but what about all the victims of Joseph Stalin? Oh yeah right Stalin was with the good guys and Hitler was evil. Are jews more important than karelians? chechens? Stalin is the real evil. People say that Joseph Stalin killed 50 million people. It is anyoing how zionists always talk about holocaust this and holocaust that while Putin can have a victory day parade on every May 9th in Moscow to honour the war criminal Soviet soldiers. There might be something true what Jones is saying. For example many jews keep lying and blaming that Finland was with Hitler on 1939 when that is not true. Soviet Union attacked first, stole Karelia and drove out over 400 000 karelians. My grandfather lost him home in Karelia. Russia neved has never said that the winter war was wrong. Still jews have some special right about the holocaust. Bush always defending Putin. I don"t hate jews but karelians are also humans. Russia stole Karelia and that is a fact. What makes jews more important than those 400 000 karelians?

Because the Jews control Hollywood. You will never see a movie about how Eastern Europeans suffered at the hands of the Jewish Soviet Secret Police.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Because the Jews control Hollywood. You will never see a movie about how Eastern Europeans suffered at the hands of the Jewish Soviet Secret Police.

Is that because Jewish Immigrants set up the original major Hollywood studios though? I suppose it's only natural they are going to make movies about subject they are personally passionate about. Is that a bad thing?

[MaGZ]

Is that because Jewish Immigrants set up the original major Hollywood studios though? I suppose it's only natural they are going to make movies about subject they are personally passionate about. Is that a bad thing?

Hollywood is a Jewish propaganda mill, has been from its inception, but you knew that.

[Thunder]

I have started a thread in Forum Managemant to have MaGz suspended or Banned outright. He is clearly not hear to argue or debate, but just to piss off and insult Jews. Please check it out and comment.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I have started a thread in Forum Managemant to have MaGz suspended or Banned outright. He is clearly not hear to argue or debate, but just to piss off and insult Jews. Please check it out and comment.

I think that's a very very bad idea. Once you start going down that route you are joining the people in some countries who put people in prison for questioning the Holocaust and Freedom of Speech flushes down the toilet.

[Jonnyclueless]

I think that's a very very bad idea. Once you start going down that route you are joining the people in some countries who put people in prison for questioning the Holocaust and Freedom of Speech flushes down the toilet.

Banning someone from a forum for violating the rules to which they agreed is not a violation of freedom of speech. Banning someone from a forum for no reason at all except spite, is not a violation of freedom of speech.

However if AJ had his way, we would be a police state and people would not be free to say what they want.

[dudalb]

I have started a thread in Forum Managemant to have MaGz suspended or Banned outright. He is clearly not hear to argue or debate, but just to piss off and insult Jews. Please check it out and comment.

We had a fuss over MaGZ recently, and the ruling of the Mods was that unless it was directed specifically against an individual , Anti Semitism and Racism were not violations of the JREF rules.
I do not agree with this, but I doubt the Mods are going to change their minds so soon. Starting the fuss up again will be useless.

[dudalb]

I think that's a very very bad idea. Once you start going down that route you are joining the people in some countries who put people in prison for questioning the Holocaust and Freedom of Speech flushes down the toilet.


Nonsense. JREF is a privately owned website, and Randi and the mods have the right to set up any rules they see fit, and enforce them any way they see fit.
It is not a public square, it is a private home, and the owner of a private home has the right to tell someone to get the hell out at any time for any reason.
BTW,when it comes to banning someone for diagreeing with them, the Truther Sites are among the worst I have seen. But as long as they pay for the sites, the owners have a right to control content on the site.

[dudalb]

Hollywood is a Jewish propaganda mill, has been from its inception, but you knew that.



http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1884048ca062020e8b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13773)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I think that's a very very bad idea. Once you start going down that route you are joining the people in some countries who put people in prison for questioning the Holocaust and Freedom of Speech flushes down the toilet.


Wow... What an asinine statement. You're seriously suggesting that if the JREF forums ban someone for antisemitism, that gets the ball rolling to allow jailing of anti-Semitic individuals in the U.S.?

You, sir, greatly overestimate the influence of this forum. The U.S. government will not be using the moderation of these forums as legal precedent.

ETA: Actually, upon second reading, it appears that you're attempting to equate the banning of anti-Semitic individuals from these forums with the jailing of anti-Semitic individuals in Germany. It's still an asinine statement.

[Brainster]

I haven't heard what Alex Jones has had to say recently so I won't comment on whether he is being anti-semitic or not. infowars isn't a place I frequent

However it's wrong to equate Zionism and Jews as a freely exchangeable format. And criticism of Zionism as a movement in itself isn't anti-semitic. Also remember there are Jews that are against Zionism.

Given that Zionism was a late 19th and early 20th century movement for a Jewish state in Palestine, I do have to question what the "anti-Zionists" are all about. It's like saying you oppose manifest destiny.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Given that Zionism was a late 19th and early 20th century movement for a Jewish state in Palestine, I do have to question what the "anti-Zionists" are all about. It's like saying you oppose manifest destiny.

Are you serious?

Zionism as a political movement still exists you know. It's one of the most powerful lobbies. AIPAC used to be called the American Zionist Committee for Public Affairs.

People who are Anti-Zionist are those who are not happy with the way this movement has so much power to promote the Pro-Israel lobby at the expense of other issues.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Zionism as a political movement still exists you know. It's one of the most powerful lobbies.


Are you aware that modern zionism was a response to antisemitism?

People who are Anti-Zionist are those who are not happy with the way this movement has so much power to promote the Pro-Israel lobby at the expense of other issues.


See, you're problem is that you're taking other truthers' claims of "anti-zionism, not anti-semitism" at face value. I'm sure you know quite well that many in the so-called Truth Movement simply use that as a semantic shield. I mean, since when does a powerful lobby group orchestrate and execute major, covert acts of international terrorism?

The "anti-zionists" you enjoy defending have quite plainly extended the scope of the phrase, but your arguments ignore that. That's a failure on your part, not ours.

[Thunder]

Are you serious?

People who are Anti-Zionist are those who are not happy with the way this movement has so much power to promote the Pro-Israel lobby at the expense of other issues.

are you suggesting that there are no anti-Zionists who are really motivated by hatred of Jews?

if you read the writings of many anti-Zionists, they often go into issues that have NOTHING to do with Zionism. Such as the Russian Revolution, the American Civil War, international banking, the death of Jesus. These are the pet subjects of anti-Semites.

Lets not forget that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion had NOTHING to do with Israel, Palestine, or Zionism.

[NoZed Avenger]

Fun fact: My ethnicity has over 15 million people and we aren't even known to the common person, or even most informed people.

Maybe your people should get off their asses.

Just saying.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Are you aware that modern zionism was a response to antisemitism?
Huh? it's a continuation of the original Zionism


See, you're problem is that you're taking other truthers' claims of "anti-zionism, not anti-semitism" at face value. I'm sure you know quite well that many in the so-called Truth Movement simply use that as a semantic shield. I mean, since when does a powerful lobby group orchestrate and execute major, covert acts of international terrorism?

The "anti-zionists" you enjoy defending have quite plainly extended the scope of the phrase, but your arguments ignore that. That's a failure on your part, not ours.[/QUOTE]

What on earth are you gibbering on about?

Most people I have come across aren't anti-semitic in the slightest, but they are concerned about Zionist Movement and it's lobby. Particularly the situation between Israel and the palestinians.

Most anti-Zionists aren't Anti-semitic dude. You need to stop believing that ADL rhetoric.

The BS of stifling criticism of Zionism by labelling it racist is getting real tired now. People are fed up with it.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

are you suggesting that there are no anti-Zionists who are really motivated by hatred of Jews?

If you read my posts you'll see that I'm doing no such thing. Dress up a straw man as a question and it's still a straw man.

But assuming it was a genuine question rather than an assertion I will answer it....

I'm not naive enough to believe their are no anti-Semites. but I'm also not naive enough, or stupid enough, to claim most anti-Zionists are anti-semites.

While racism exists, in my experience most people are decent enough to not prejudice people. But they will criticize behavior where they see fit whatever someone's background



if you read the writings of many anti-Zionists, they often go into issues that have NOTHING to do with Zionism. Such as the Russian Revolution, the American Civil War, international banking, the death of Jesus. These are the pet subjects of anti-Semites.

Lets not forget that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion had NOTHING to do with Israel, Palestine, or Zionism.

And you should know that it's common to stifle criticism of the Israeli Lobby/Zionist movement by labeling it racism.

You should also know that the fight against real racism is being handicapped by the political hijacking of the term. It's got so bad that whenever someone cries Anti-Semitism those of us who actually care about racism have to check whether it's real anti-Semitism or just another attack on criticism of Zionism/Israel lobby

[Brainster]

Are you serious?

Zionism as a political movement still exists you know. It's one of the most powerful lobbies. AIPAC used to be called the American Zionist Committee for Public Affairs.

People who are Anti-Zionist are those who are not happy with the way this movement has so much power to promote the Pro-Israel lobby at the expense of other issues.

Zionism as defined at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Zionism):

–noun
a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel.

Zi·on·ism (zī'ə-nĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n. A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

So my assumption is that those who are anti-Zionist are concerned with the destruction and demolition of the state of Israel.

Anti-semitic kooks, in other words.

You may have some other definition in mind. Unfortunately dictionary.com is not a wikipedia-type site where you can make up your own definitions.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Zionism as defined at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Zionism):



So my assumption is that those who are anti-Zionist are concerned with the destruction and demolition of the state of Israel.

Anti-semitic kooks, in other words.

You may have some other definition in mind. Unfortunately dictionary.com is not a wikipedia-type site where you can make up your own definitions.


Clearly, when many of the CTs talk about Zionism they don't actually know what it means. The talk of Zionist influence, politicians and presidents being controlled by Zionist puppet masters etc. is old fashioned antisemitism, nothing less.

Some truthers may be new to the scene, and perhaps not well read, and thus be unfamiliar with the history of scapegoating the Jews. They read the Protocols and think it is real. They don't have the reasoning skills to separate fact from fiction. They don't even mean to be antisemitic, probably never expressed any racism in their life, but the idea that Zionists control the world is just too exciting, too simple and too satisfying for them to even consider that it might be a lie motivated by racial hatred. They don't mean to be antisemitic, but hell, these theories are so much more exciting that what you learn in school!

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Zionism as defined at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Zionism):

So my assumption is that those who are anti-Zionist are concerned with the destruction and demolition of the state of Israel.

Anti-semitic kooks, in other words.

You may have some other definition in mind. Unfortunately dictionary.com is not a wikipedia-type site where you can make up your own definitions.

That over-simplified assumption has been used for years and is getting a bit tired now. Sure there are some, mostly Arab fundamentalists I would imagine, who want the destruction of Israel.

But you can be against the behavior of the Zionist movement without wanting the destruction of Israel or being anti-semitic.

Even many Jews are against Zionism. Are they also Anti-semitic?

It's important to recognize the difference between zionism ( a recognition and support of the existence of a Jewish State ) and the Zionist Movement ( a political lobby )

It's not anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli Lobby for it's influences. It's not anti-Semitic to criticize the persecution of the Palestinians and any other wrong doings by Israel.

The labeling of any criticism of the Zionist movement as anti-semitic is an old tactic mainly promoted by groups like the ADL.

Your dictionary says: "Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel."

Correct. And criticizing the way the way that is being conducted is not anti-semitic and legitimate political criticism.

if you think that all those who are anti-Zionist are concerned with the destruction and demolition of the state of Israel you are severely mistaken.

[Doctor Evil]

It's not anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli Lobby for it's influences. It's not anti-Semitic to criticize the persecution of the Palestinians and any other wrong doings by Israel.

The labeling of any criticism of the Zionist movement as anti-semitic is an old tactic mainly promoted by groups like the ADL.


You seem to be making a claim that there is a systematic effort to paint any criticism of the Zionist movement as racist. Well, I think this is plainly wrong. You can find many places where there thoughtful criticism of Israeli policies, and no one seem to make that claim. Heck, quite a lot of it can be found in the Israeli newspapers.

Can you actually provide evidence for your claim?

It seems to me that your constant whining about this is some kind of special pleading. From what I have seen you have not yet supplied us with any specific criticism of any actual Israeli policy. It is not that hard to do. In fact, I can easily fill a page with very detailed criticism of this type and I assure you that no one with think that I am antisemitic. When someone argue obsessively about Jewish Lobbies, without and specific, detailed, and factual criticism, it is no wonder that people become suspicious. This type of behavior have history.

Can you tell me what actions of AIPAC you find illegitimate? As far as I can see, they are a group of US citizens trying to influence their government policies. There are other such lobbies, including ones who also are mainly focused on foreign policy. You may think the policies they advocate are wrong, but this does not seem to me to be they crux of your argument. You seem to be implying that they are somehow doing something which is inherently wrong. Can you explain exactly what?

Last, but not least. The claim that antisemitism is used to stifle political discussion has become very popular in recent years. In some circles it has received the name 'the Livingston formulation'., names after the former mayor of London. He has used it after some incident (http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=274) with a Jewish reporter, which he later tried to relate to Israel in order to change the subject.
He did not simply insult a Jewish journalist by suggesting that he had worked as a Nazi concentration camp guard and then refuse to apologize for the comment. He reacted to criticism of this insult by publishing an article in the Guardian under the title 'This is about Israel, not anti-semitism' (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/comment/0,,1430185,00.html)(March 4 2005), in which he sought to change the topic of discussion by insisting that the problem is not anti-Semitism but Israel's 'racist' policies. (I responded to this piece with a letter in the Guardian, which can be found here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1431003,00.html).)
I recommend that you take a look at the site I have link. It is maintained by a group of left-wing academic which are worried about the rise of antisemitism. They have taken some care to try and identify when criticism is valid, and it goes beyond some line. You do not have to agree with them, but you may gain from actually reading some of their arguments (http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=206).

[Brainster]

It's not anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli Lobby for it's influences. It's not anti-Semitic to criticize the persecution of the Palestinians and any other wrong doings by Israel.

Well, there is the question of balance. How much time do these same people spend criticizing wrongdoings by, say Egypt? Or by Cuba? Or Burkina Faso? Has anybody spent much time denouncing the influence of the French lobby?

Of course not. Now why is that, do you suppose? Is Israel the worst country in the world, and once it cleans up its act the anti-Zionists will move on to the second worst offender?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You seem to be making a claim that there is a systematic effort to paint any criticism of the Zionist movement as racist. Well, I think this is plainly wrong. .

Yes you're correct. Your claim that I am claiming there is a systematic effort to paint any criticism of the Zionist movement as racist is, indeed, plainly wrong.

I am doing no such thing.

In fact there's a name for fabricating or misrepresenting an opponents view point and then proceeding to attack this misrepresentation or fabrication. It's called a Straw Man argument.

[Praktik]

Of course not. Now why is that, do you suppose? Is Israel the worst country in the world, and once it cleans up its act the anti-Zionists will move on to the second worst offender?

Well, to answer this question honestly I'd say that there is definitely some small proportion of the people who "focus" on Israel who are anti-semitic.

But most others just have a personal interest in what goes on there and their sense of justice might be inflamed by the vagaries of the occupation or to take an American-centric view, some are just annoyed by the fact that coverage of Israel is so one-sided when Israel itself enjoys a much wider spectrum of debate on the issue. They want to redress this imbalance.

On the "progressive left" there's definitely a strong anti-occupation movement and this is motivated far more by perceived injustice than it is by anti-semitism. At the worst, you could maybe argue that the most irrational in this demographic are "useful idiots" for true anti-semites - but I wouldn't really want to engage in that kind of demagoguery myself..;)

On the Buchanan-right, I'd say there is a strain of nearly anti-semitic talk, usually couched in code words. I subscribe to The American Conservative out of personal interest (I am no paleocon) and I've seen pieces there that ride the edge and I've seen plenty of others arguing from a first principles perspective that the "passionate attachments" to foreign countries warned of by Washington are dangerous - and that Israel is a prime example of a "passionate attachment" which causes America to make decisions contrary to its basic self-interest. I do not think that the latter type of piece is in any way anti-semitic - its more the ones that make a point of hyper-focusing on the neocons, and the neocons "jewishness" which could be seen as thinly-veiled anti-semitism. Fact is that neocons or no, America is generally "Pro-Israel", so focusing on them I think is kind of missing the larger point and evidence of an irrational approach to the issue and maybe something darker besides...

There's also the fact that Israel is a much more important country than say, Burkina Faso, its conflict is decades long and has filled the news media with atrocities committed by both sides.

America has also "taken a side" in the issue and just like any other position America takes with regards to its foreign policy this is going to drive debate.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Well, to answer this question honestly I'd say that there is definitely some small proportion of the people who "focus" on Israel who are anti-semitic.

But most others just have a personal interest in what goes on there and their sense of justice might be inflamed by the vagaries of the occupation or to take an American-centric view, some are just annoyed by the fact that coverage of Israel is so one-sided when Israel itself enjoys a much wider spectrum of debate on the issue. They want to redress this imbalance.

On the "progressive left" there's definitely a strong anti-occupation movement and this is motivated far more by perceived injustice than it is by anti-semitism. At the worst, you could maybe argue that the most irrational in this demographic are "useful idiots" for true anti-semites - but I wouldn't really want to engage in that kind of demagoguery myself..;)

On the Buchanan-right, I'd say there is a strain of nearly anti-semitic talk, usually couched in code words. I subscribe to The American Conservative out of personal interest (I am no paleocon) and I've seen pieces there that ride the edge and I've seen plenty of others arguing from a first principles perspective that the "passionate attachments" to foreign countries warned of by Washington are dangerous - and that Israel is a prime example of a "passionate attachment" which causes America to make decisions contrary to its basic self-interest. I do not think that the latter type of piece is in any way anti-semitic - its more the ones that make a point of hyper-focusing on the neocons, and the neocons "jewishness" which could be seen as thinly-veiled anti-semitism. Fact is that neocons or no, America is generally "Pro-Israel", so focusing on them I think is kind of missing the larger point and evidence of an irrational approach to the issue and maybe something darker besides...

There's also the fact that Israel is a much more important country than say, Burkina Faso, its conflict is decades long and has filled the news media with atrocities committed by both sides.

America has also "taken a side" in the issue and just like any other position America takes with regards to its foreign policy this is going to drive debate.



Well said Praktik!

One gets particularly suspicious when people complain about the lack of criticism for other world injustices in threads dedicated to Israel, Zionism and related issues

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Well, there is the question of balance. How much time do these same people spend criticizing wrongdoings by, say Egypt? Or by Cuba? Or Burkina Faso? Has anybody spent much time denouncing the influence of the French lobby?

Of course not. Now why is that, do you suppose? Is Israel the worst country in the world, and once it cleans up its act the anti-Zionists will move on to the second worst offender?

Praktik already answers your questions above. But yes you are right in regards to balance. The Israel issue is very unbalanced. no other country would be allowed to get away with what Israel is doing. So it's not unreasonable that people are going to try and redress that balance by speaking up about it.

It would be very unreasonable to think that people criticizing Zionism and Israel do not care for other world injustices

[Brainster]

Well, to answer this question honestly I'd say that there is definitely some small proportion of the people who "focus" on Israel who are anti-semitic.

But most others just have a personal interest in what goes on there and their sense of justice might be inflamed by the vagaries of the occupation or to take an American-centric view, some are just annoyed by the fact that coverage of Israel is so one-sided when Israel itself enjoys a much wider spectrum of debate on the issue. They want to redress this imbalance.

On the "progressive left" there's definitely a strong anti-occupation movement and this is motivated far more by perceived injustice than it is by anti-semitism. At the worst, you could maybe argue that the most irrational in this demographic are "useful idiots" for true anti-semites - but I wouldn't really want to engage in that kind of demagoguery myself..;)

On the Buchanan-right, I'd say there is a strain of nearly anti-semitic talk, usually couched in code words. I subscribe to The American Conservative out of personal interest (I am no paleocon) and I've seen pieces there that ride the edge and I've seen plenty of others arguing from a first principles perspective that the "passionate attachments" to foreign countries warned of by Washington are dangerous - and that Israel is a prime example of a "passionate attachment" which causes America to make decisions contrary to its basic self-interest. I do not think that the latter type of piece is in any way anti-semitic - its more the ones that make a point of hyper-focusing on the neocons, and the neocons "jewishness" which could be seen as thinly-veiled anti-semitism. Fact is that neocons or no, America is generally "Pro-Israel", so focusing on them I think is kind of missing the larger point and evidence of an irrational approach to the issue and maybe something darker besides...

There's also the fact that Israel is a much more important country than say, Burkina Faso, its conflict is decades long and has filled the news media with atrocities committed by both sides.

America has also "taken a side" in the issue and just like any other position America takes with regards to its foreign policy this is going to drive debate.

Yes, what a shame America stands with the only country in the Middle East that allows its Arab citizens to vote.

It's clear to me that anti-semitism drives Buchanan and some of his more odious contributors like slimeball Justin Raimondo. The American left is more motivated by their simplistic template of supporting the oppressed versus the oppressor; apparently the fact that the oppressed blow up teenagers outside discotheques and families in pizza parlors is seen as a righteous reaction instead of the thuggery that it really is.

On the topic of media coverage of Israel, I don't see a lot of "Israel is perfect" in the news; do you think the coverage of Jenin was more fair and balanced in the US press or in the European? Or the death of Rachel Corrie?

[Praktik]

Yes, what a shame America stands with the only country in the Middle East that allows its Arab citizens to vote.

It's clear to me that anti-semitism drives Buchanan and some of his more odious contributors like slimeball Justin Raimondo. The American left is more motivated by their simplistic template of supporting the oppressed versus the oppressor; apparently the fact that the oppressed blow up teenagers outside discotheques and families in pizza parlors is seen as a righteous reaction instead of the thuggery that it really is.

On the topic of media coverage of Israel, I don't see a lot of "Israel is perfect" in the news; do you think the coverage of Jenin was more fair and balanced in the US press or in the European? Or the death of Rachel Corrie?

Well, I think it should be fairly obvious to most impartial observers that the scope of debate on Israel in the American media is narrower than that in Israel - witness the difference in coverage during Olmert's ill-advised Lebanon War in 2006...

Look, I understand that there are plenty of things to be outraged about going on in Israel - whether its collective punishment or random acts of terror in Haifa, illegal settlements or corruption in the PLO. For each "tit" listed as an evil on the Israeli side there's plenty of "tats" to list on the Palestinian side and vice versa. Arguing over these points is rarely fruitful in my experience..;)

Your invocation of suicide bombers or Israel allowing Arabs to vote doesn't change the fact that others are focusing more on the occupying power - and that plenty of these people are plainly not anti-semites and motivated by other concerns which I attempted to list.

Understand my post as a descriptor of those points of view from different political segments rather than me taking a Tariq Ali or "first principles" approach to the conflict personally.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Well, I think it should be fairly obvious to most impartial observers that the scope of debate on Israel in the American media is narrower than that in Israel - witness the difference in coverage during Olmert's ill-advised Lebanon War in 2006...

.

It certainly is. The West is not given the full picture of the actions of Israel in the Western Media.

You can easily verify this by looking at comparable news stories at Hareetz or Ynet News

[Thunder]

Even many Jews are against Zionism. Are they also Anti-semitic?

.

Exactly how many Jews do you think are actively anti-Zionist?

Since there is no large Jewish organization that is openly anti-Zionist, all we can look at is the Naturei Karta and Satmar Chassidim movemants.

They each have less then 50,000 members.

By the way, how can you possible argue that Jewish lobbys hold undue influence in Congress, when their total yearly donations are MINISCULE compared to other lobbying groups such as the AARP and other Corporations??

[Trojan_Jockey]

TFT, perhaps you'd like to respond to the points that Doctor Evil made. I guess that you missed the post, although you strangely responded to some of it and not the rest. Anyway, I'll post it again because I think it's very important for the discussion:

Can you tell me what actions of AIPAC you find illegitimate? As far as I can see, they are a group of US citizens trying to influence their government policies. There are other such lobbies, including ones who also are mainly focused on foreign policy. You may think the policies they advocate are wrong, but this does not seem to me to be they crux of your argument. You seem to be implying that they are somehow doing something which is inherently wrong. Can you explain exactly what?

[moon1969]

He might be an anti-semite but his right about the zionists. I haven"t heard any jew talking about how evil Stalin was. Always Hitler this and Hitler that. Day after day. My grandfather lost his home in Karelia after WW2 and got nothing. Zionist and jews got Israel after 1948? Where is the justice in that? You see karelians were humiliated in Finland. I forget it. Every american thinks that jews are better than those karelians or chechens or other people who were victims of Stalin and got nothing afte WW2 but zionists got their own country. :mad:

[Tin Foil Timothy]

TFT, perhaps you'd like to respond to the points that Doctor Evil made. I guess that you missed the post, although you strangely responded to some of it and not the rest. Anyway, I'll post it again because I think it's very important for the discussion:

Can you tell me what actions of AIPAC you find illegitimate? As far as I can see, they are a group of US citizens trying to influence their government policies. There are other such lobbies, including ones who also are mainly focused on foreign policy. You may think the policies they advocate are wrong, but this does not seem to me to be they crux of your argument. You seem to be implying that they are somehow doing something which is inherently wrong. Can you explain exactly what?

The paragraph you quote is a straw man and I've I already responded to that post. I just didn't quote all of it for brevity.

I haven't said I think AIPAC or it's actions are illegitimate. It's customary to find out someone's opinion before putting an opinion in their mouth and then asking for them to clarify it.

And seeing as you seem to be hovering around a lot we haven't heard much of your views.

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement/Israel Lobby for it's power in influencing America's Middle Eeat foreign policy to teh extent where it's probnably not in America's best interests?

Do you think the collective punishment of the Palestinians is fair?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Exactly how many Jews do you think are actively anti-Zionist?

Since there is no large Jewish organization that is openly anti-Zionist, all we can look at is the Naturei Karta and Satmar Chassidim movemants.

They each have less then 50,000 members.

Even many Jews are against Zionism. Are they also Anti-semitic?


By the way, how can you possible argue that Jewish lobbys hold undue influence in Congress, when their total yearly donations are MINISCULE compared to other lobbying groups such as the AARP and other Corporations??

Well congress receding for a Jewish holiday is a bit of a giveaway. But the whole 'taking sides' with Israel in the Israel/Palestine issue is the biggest giveaway.

What other lobby's do ALL presidential candidates and other top politicians stand up and make big speeches at? The AIPAC yearly conference is like a who's who of US politics.

Not to mention the 30 billion the US is giving to Israel for arms over the next 10 years.

I've never ever heard anyone try to argue that the Jewish Lobby doesn't have a powerful influence in the US Congress though. Even those who are Pro-Israel.

That's as absurd as those who argue that because they saw planes hit the towers it is proof it's not an inside job. Or those that argue that because Palestine was never made an actual State it's OK for Israel to simply steal teh land of individual Palestinians.

Parky I can see that you're a definitely pro-Israel fella.

[dudalb]

He might be an anti-semite but his right about the zionists. I haven"t heard any jew talking about how evil Stalin was. Always Hitler this and Hitler that. Day after day. My grandfather lost his home in Karelia after WW2 and got nothing. Zionist and jews got Israel after 1948? Where is the justice in that? You see karelians were humiliated in Finland. I forget it. Every american thinks that jews are better than those karelians or chechens or other people who were victims of Stalin and got nothing afte WW2 but zionists got their own country. :mad:

To be fair, nobody tried to systematically wipe out the Kerelians the way Hitler did the Jews.
BTW I think you kind find plenty of Jewish Historians who have very nasty things to say about Stalin.
And, sorry, but Finland is not getting Karelia back anytime soon.

[1337m4n]

Rubbish!

Most people I know who you would call "twoofers" have nothing against Jews whatsoever. They do criticise the Zionist movement.

All this 'codeword' BS is childish.

I'll condemn anyone for criticizing anyone because their race, sexuality or gender. But will speak up when political criticism is being labelled racism in order to stifle it.

I've never heard Alex Jones spew anything anti-semitical. But if you have evidence of him doing so then please present it and I'll be the first condemn him for it

They don't criticize the Zionist movement. They criticize Jews. They use the term "Zionist" but they're talking about Jews.

I have personally observed this kind of behavior and your insinuation that it is "childish BS" is insulting. Just one of many examples is a post I saw in a facebook group titled "How to identify Zionists". The post went on to list Jewish names and to do nothing else. That is a deliberate attempt to equate being Jewish with being a Zionist. Any idiot can see that when he's not blithely defending his neo-Nazi buddies.

How about I turn your challenge on you. Find ONE instance where Alex Jones used the term "Zionist" and was ACTUALLY political criticism. You will be unsuccessful. Instead you will get stuff like "Zionists control the media!" with the evidence being a list of Jewish names in media. Again, a blatant attempt to equate Zionism with Judaism.

What I find baffling is why you get so indignant towards people who call out this crap. I'm not trying to "stifle" anyone's speech. The assertion is inherently stupid anyways; how exactly am I "stifling" anyone? Am I pointing a gun to anyone's head and telling them they can't post this crap? Certainly not. I fail to see how any of this could possibly be "stifling" criticism of Israel. Especially when there isn't any criticism of Israel, just criticism of Jews or "Zionists" by people who don't even know the definition of the word, but that's beside the point. People are free to spew whatever racist crap they want. But freedom of speech is a two-way street, thus, I am likewise free to call them out on their racist crap. If they don't like me calling them out on it, that's their own damn fault. "Freedom of speech" is not "freedom from criticism" and I resent the implication that criticism--even criticism that you blindly believe is false--is somehow the same as censorship. Maybe it'd be different if I were the head of some media corporation, but I'm not. I'm just some random dude on the internet. Folks like MaGZ and Clippy are big boys; they can defend themselves against that big meanie 1337m4n if they think I'm wrong; they don't need you doing it for them. In fact I think they'd be embarrassed by your performance thus far. In contrast, if you allow racism to go on disguised as "political criticism", you get lovely things such as lynch mobs.

[1337m4n]

Well congress receding for a Jewish holiday is a bit of a giveaway. But the whole 'taking sides' with Israel in the Israel/Palestine issue is the biggest giveaway.

What other lobby's do ALL presidential candidates and other top politicians stand up and make big speeches at? The AIPAC yearly conference is like a who's who of US politics.

Not to mention the 30 billion the US is giving to Israel for arms over the next 10 years.

I've never ever heard anyone try to argue that the Jewish Lobby doesn't have a powerful influence in the US Congress though. Even those who are Pro-Israel.

That's as absurd as those who argue that because they saw planes hit the towers it is proof it's not an inside job. Or those that argue that because Palestine was never made an actual State it's OK for Israel to simply steal teh land of individual Palestinians.

Parky I can see that you're a definitely pro-Israel fella.

Now, see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I've put "Jew" in bold and "Israel" in italics. You're clearly using them interchangeably. You've tried to argue that criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews are two different things. Then you go ahead and claim that Congress receding for a Jewish holiday and Congress supporting Israel are evidence of the exact same phenomenon-- which is either Jewish influence over Congress, or Israeli influence over Congress (you can't seem to decide which).

But I suppose your own hypocrisy won't faze you. You'll just make some vague, unwarranted claim about me "stifling" "political criticism", with "political criticism" being defined broadly enough to include stuff like "people with Jewish names must be suspects of Zionist conspiracy" and "stifling" being defined broadly enough to include merely pointing it out.

Incidentally, I've read parky's posts in the Politics subforum and he is most definitely not pro-Israel. You only thought he was because he was railing against those who hate Jews. Hey, look, you're just like those people trying to equate Jews with Israel!

In the meantime, why don't I give you a REAL example of "stifling debate" by sticking you on my Ignore list for a week. Then you'll see what "stifles" more between that and calling people out for trying to disguise racism as "political criticism".

[1337m4n]

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

"The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:"


Oh, but let me guess, TFT, the phrase "Jewish Arrogance" is just political criticism. LOL.

Give it up; it is futile to try to defend these people.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Now, see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I've put "Jew" in bold and "Israel" in italics. You're clearly using them interchangeably. You've tried to argue that criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews are two different things. Then you go ahead and claim that Congress receding for a Jewish holiday and Congress supporting Israel are evidence of the exact same phenomenon-- which is either Jewish influence over Congress, or Israeli influence over Congress (you can't seem to decide which).

But I suppose your own hypocrisy won't faze you. You'll just make some vague, unwarranted claim about me "stifling" "political criticism", with "political criticism" being defined broadly enough to include stuff like "people with Jewish names must be suspects of Zionist conspiracy" and "stifling" being defined broadly enough to include merely pointing it out.

Incidentally, I've read parky's posts in the Politics subforum and he is most definitely not pro-Israel. You only thought he was because he was railing against those who hate Jews. Hey, look, you're just like those people trying to equate Jews with Israel!

In the meantime, why don't I give you a REAL example of "stifling debate" by sticking you on my Ignore list for a week. Then you'll see what "stifles" more between that and calling people out for trying to disguise racism as "political criticism".

Oops, look like you've been caught out TFT. Shouldn't that have been a "Zionist" holiday? :D

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Oops, look like you've been caught out TFT. Shouldn't that have been a "Zionist" holiday? :D

There's no such thing as a Zionist Holiday is there?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

"The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:"


Oh, but let me guess, TFT, the phrase "Jewish Arrogance" is just political criticism. LOL.

Give it up; it is futile to try to defend these people.

I don't defend anyone who criticizes someone because of their race, nationality, ethnicity, etc

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Now, see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I've put "Jew" in bold and "Israel" in italics. You're clearly using them interchangeably. You've tried to argue that criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews are two different things. Then you go ahead and claim that Congress receding for a Jewish holiday and Congress supporting Israel are evidence of the exact same phenomenon-- which is either Jewish influence over Congress, or Israeli influence over Congress (you can't seem to decide which).
.....

Picking up on semantics to bolster your misrepresentation of my views isn't working.

Actually 1337m4n I'm arguing that the criticizing of someone for being Jewish ( prejudiced) and the criticizing of someone's behavior who happens to be Jewish (not prejudice) is two different things.

If you look at the NGOs ... AIPAC, JINSA, They use Israeli and Jewish interchangaebly.

The Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, whose board includes/included people like Michael Ledeen, Richard Perle, R. James Woolsey, Dick Cheney, John Bolton, Douglas Feith is an NGO dedicated to US national security in relation top Israel.

That's not called the Israel Institute for National Security Affairs or even just the Institute for National Security Affairs

This is getting ridiculous. It's almost like the Holy Grail Stoning scene. "He said the word 'Jewish!' stone him stone him!"

So you can put me on ignore if you like. In fact please do.

There's nothing wrong in criticizing an Israeli, Jewish, American, Russian, Chinese, or whatever groups for their behavior. There is a lot wrong in criticizing someone or a groups specifically for being Israeli, Jewish, American, Russian, Chinese, or whatever.

And that's my position. You can twist it around to suit your own argument as much as you like, but my view won't change

[Trojan_Jockey]

Picking up on semantics to bolster your misrepresentation of my views isn't working.

Actually 1337m4n I'm arguing that the criticizing of someone for being Jewish ( prejudiced) and the criticizing of someone's behavior who happens to be Jewish (not prejudice) is two different things.

If you look at the NGOs ... AIPAC, JINSA, They use Israeli and Jewish interchangaebly.

The Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, whose board includes/included people like Michael Ledeen, Richard Perle, R. James Woolsey, Dick Cheney, John Bolton, Douglas Feith is an NGO dedicated to US national security in relation top Israel.

That's not called the Israel Institute for National Security Affairs or even just the Institute for National Security Affairs

This is getting ridiculous. It's almost like the Holy Grail Stoning scene. "He said the word 'Jewish!' stone him stone him!"

So you can put me on ignore if you like. In fact please do.

There's nothing wrong in criticizing an Israeli, Jewish, American, Russian, Chinese, or whatever groups for their behavior. There is a lot wrong in criticizing someone or a groups specifically for being Israeli, Jewish, American, Russian, Chinese, or whatever.

And that's my position. You can twist it around to suit your own argument as much as you like, but my view won't change

It's true that you're not criticising someone for being Jewish, you're criticising them for their behaviour and they just happen to be Jewish. Problem is you are criticising their behaviour specifically because it acts in Jewish interests. Now why wouldn't prominent Jews want to ensure the prosperity of a Jewish homeland, indeed why wouldn't any sane, liberal person want to support the only democratic secular state in the Middle East?

Do you criticise black people for campaigning on behalf of black interests, homosexuals pushing for gay rights, or women who campaign for women's issues? I guess not, nor do you blame them for all wars, financial problems and major terrorist attacks.

[Trojan_Jockey]

There's no such thing as a Zionist Holiday is there?

Of course there isn't, I was making the point that Zionist is the CT's code word for Jewish. :eek:

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Of course there isn't, I was making the point that Zionist is the CT's code word for Jewish. :eek:

No you're not.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

It's true that you're not criticising someone for being Jewish, you're criticising them for their behaviour and they just happen to be Jewish. Problem is you are criticising their behaviour specifically because it acts in Jewish interests. Now why wouldn't prominent Jews want to ensure the prosperity of a Jewish homeland,

Well I can't speak for anyone else but in regards to your statement in bold when those interests, i.e Israel, are put before the interests of the US then yes I will criticize them.


indeed why wouldn't any sane, liberal person want to support the only democratic secular state in the Middle East?

I don't support the way Israel was created and I don't support the way it's ongoing expansionism has been conducted. And neither do I support it's persecution fo the Palestinians. A persecution in which only today the UN described as 'barbarity'

And I know many sane liberal people who feel the same. So yes there are reasons why decent people don't support Israel and it's nothing to do with racism.


Do you criticise black people for campaigning on behalf of black interests, homosexuals pushing for gay rights, or women who campaign for women's issues? I guess not, nor do you blame them for all wars, financial problems and major terrorist attacks.

I don't blame anyone in particular for all wars, financial problems and major terrorist attacks.

[Doctor Evil]

Well I can't speak for anyone else but in regards to your statement in bold when those interests, i.e Israel, are put before the interests of the US then yes I will criticize them.



Do you claim that Jewish citizens of the US knowingly put the interests of Israel higher then those of their own country? That is, that they advocate policy not because they believe it is right for everybody, but because of some other reasons.

[Doctor Evil]

I don't support the way Israel was created and I don't support the way it's ongoing expansionism has been conducted. And neither do I support it's persecution fo the Palestinians. A persecution in which only today the UN described as 'barbarity'


So, what can you tell us about the way Israel was created?

What do you mean when you say Israel has an ongoing expansionism. Give us details. For instance, when was the last time Israel 'has expanded'?

What can you tell me about the composition of the general assembly of the UN? How does this plays out when votes regarding Israel are taken?

From here, you seem awfully ignorant. Especially after your responses to my posts yesterday, which were mostly composed of a bunch of slogans, rather than content.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

So, what can you tell us about the way Israel was created?

What do you mean when you say Israel has an ongoing expansionism. Give us details. For instance, when was the last time Israel 'has expanded'?

What can you tell me about the composition of the general assembly of the UN? How does this plays out when votes regarding Israel are taken?

From here, you seem awfully ignorant. Especially after your responses to my posts yesterday, which were mostly composed of a bunch of slogans, rather than content.

|I would say you are awful ignorant if you are unaware of how Israel was created without regard for the people already living there and awfully ignorant if you are unaware of the ongoing expansion through illegal settlements that are slowly but surely eroding the Palestinian's West Bank.

[Doctor Evil]

|I would say you are awful ignorant if you are unaware of how Israel was created without regard for the people already living there and awfully ignorant if you are unaware of the ongoing expansion through illegal settlements that are slowly but surely eroding the Palestinian's West Bank.

Yet again, a content free response.

Fine. To be more precise, an almost content free response. It include two slim details. One is a wrong assumption about me, and the other has to do with the West Bank.

Regarding the settlements in the West Bank. I oppose them, and believe they are wrong, both morally, and because they harm the chances for peace. However, you have not talked about West Bank settlements, you talked about some undefined expansionist policy. This is exactly the type of talk which demonise rather then criticize. It is not defined and tend to get interpreted as much more than what is actually being discussed. If you would have bothered to read the links I supplied earlier in this thread you would have known that.

In fact, there are other problems with your description. For instance, it is too simplistic. The area that Israel controls have not grown, but shrunk in since 1967. There was a peace treaty with Egypt. Some areas were transfered to the Palestinian Authority control during the peace process. Later, Israel went out of Gaza completely (and in addition dismantled a few settlements in the West Bank). In those steps, Israel have shown that it can dismantle settlements, in exchange for peace. You are brushing all of these positive steps aside by using a simplistic slogan to describe the situation.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yet again, a content free response.

Fine. To be more precise, an almost content free response. It include two slim details. One is a wrong assumption about me, and the other has to do with the West Bank.

Regarding the settlements in the West Bank. I oppose them, and believe they are wrong, both morally, and because they harm the chances for peace. However, you have not talked about West Bank settlements, you talked about some undefined expansionist policy. This is exactly the type of talk which demonise rather then criticize. It is not defined and tend to get interpreted as much more than what is actually being discussed. If you would have bothered to read the links I supplied earlier in this thread you would have known that.

In fact, there are other problems with your description. For instance, it is too simplistic. The area that Israel controls have not grown, but shrunk in since 1967. There was a peace treaty with Egypt. Some areas were transfered to the Palestinian Authority control during the peace process. Later, Israel went out of Gaza completely (and in addition dismantled a few settlements in the West Bank). In those steps, Israel have shown that it can dismantle settlements, in exchange for peace. You are brushing all of these positive steps aside by using a simplistic slogan to describe the situation.

Those were positive steps, but the overall behaviour is not positive. It never was. Israel was created with the backing of the major powers and without regard for the people who lived there. Balfours Contradictory assurances backs that one up, although events since have proved it otherwise

The area that Israel controls have not grown, but shrunk in since 1967.

Misleading. Since the creation of Israel the area it controls has grown. Compare the UN partition plan map to that of today.

You can massage it all you like but the way the Palestinians have been treated by Israel is disgusting.

And yes I do believe that Israel's agenda is expansionism....

You want content? Here's content.

from article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_181#Con sequences)

By March 1949, a classified CIA report declared Palestine was a 'Long Range Disaster'. The Agency report read in part:

'The establishment of the State of Israel by force, with intimidation of the Arab governments by the US and USSR, with the cutting off of the British arms and ammunition (the Arabs only source of supply), with ample sources for Israel of munitions and finance, the Israeli battle victory is complete, but it has solved nothing.

If boundaries to an Israeli State, any boundaries, had been set and guaranteed by the Great Powers, peace might return to the area. On the contrary, we have actually a victorious state which is limited to no frontiers and which is determined that no narrow limits shall be set. The Near East is faced with the almost certain prospect of a profound and growing disturbance by Israel which may last for decades... ...Instead of restoring the boundaries of the province of Judea as they were in 70 A.D., the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire. Their present possessions are regarded by them as only a beachhead into the Arab and Muslim World -- a large part of which they plan to exploit. They are not prepared to live off what the land will yield as the Arabs do... ...Alone among the Great Powers, Britain has been working on a plan to restore a balance between the forces in Palestine, but it already appears that this plan is doomed to fail. Zionist pressure in the USA, Anglophobia in Iraq and Egypt, and above all, Russia's determination to prolong chaos in the Near East and to complete the discrediting of British and American Diplomacy, combine to work against the policy of the British Government and its collaborators --King Abdulla of Trans-Jordan and the Prime Minister of Iraq, Nuri al Said.


See! Although not made public back then, the CIA could see what Israel was and still is up to, which this now declassified document proves.

This expansionist policy is being implemented by both the slow eroding of the west bank and the ghettoisation of the people of Gaza ( Who only in the last few days have once again had food denied them )

What amazes me is that if any other country had acted the way Israel has and continues to do, then there would be international outcry. Perhaps even military intervention.

But no, Israel is protected by it's lobby in the US which encourages cries of "anti-semitism!" and "Why do you always pick on Israel?" every time it's behavior is criticized.


So tell me this.... Why is Israel allowed to get away with behavior that other countries can't?

[~enigma~]

Yes you're correct. Your claim that I am claiming there is a systematic effort to paint any criticism of the Zionist movement as racist is, indeed, plainly wrong.

I am doing no such thing.

In fact there's a name for fabricating or misrepresenting an opponents view point and then proceeding to attack this misrepresentation or fabrication. It's called a Straw Man argument.
Wow...another graduate of the Alex Jones school of debate.

[~enigma~]

Exactly how many Jews do you think are actively anti-Zionist?

Since there is no large Jewish organization that is openly anti-Zionist, all we can look at is the Naturei Karta and Satmar Chassidim movemants.

They each have less then 50,000 members.

By the way, how can you possible argue that Jewish lobbys hold undue influence in Congress, when their total yearly donations are MINISCULE compared to other lobbying groups such as the AARP and other Corporations??
Lubavitch tradition is strongly anti-zionist and so is Breslov.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Wow...another graduate of the Alex Jones school of debate.

What a strange reply.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Misleading. Since the creation of Israel the area it controls has grown. Compare the UN partition plan map to that of today.

If the area under Israeli control has shrunk since 1967 then you cannot suggest, as you appear to be doing, that Israel is continually expanding. You are deliberately misrepresenting the truth in the hope nobody will question it. Simply repeating this lie does not make it true.

You can massage it all you like but the way the Palestinians have been treated by Israel is disgusting.

And yes I do believe that Israel's agenda is expansionism....

You want content? Here's content.

from article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_181#Con sequences)

By March 1949, a classified CIA report declared Palestine was a 'Long Range Disaster'. The Agency report read in part:

'The establishment of the State of Israel by force, with intimidation of the Arab governments by the US and USSR, with the cutting off of the British arms and ammunition (the Arabs only source of supply), with ample sources for Israel of munitions and finance, the Israeli battle victory is complete, but it has solved nothing.

If boundaries to an Israeli State, any boundaries, had been set and guaranteed by the Great Powers, peace might return to the area. On the contrary, we have actually a victorious state which is limited to no frontiers and which is determined that no narrow limits shall be set. The Near East is faced with the almost certain prospect of a profound and growing disturbance by Israel which may last for decades... ...Instead of restoring the boundaries of the province of Judea as they were in 70 A.D., the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire. Their present possessions are regarded by them as only a beachhead into the Arab and Muslim World -- a large part of which they plan to exploit. They are not prepared to live off what the land will yield as the Arabs do... ...Alone among the Great Powers, Britain has been working on a plan to restore a balance between the forces in Palestine, but it already appears that this plan is doomed to fail. Zionist pressure in the USA, Anglophobia in Iraq and Egypt, and above all, Russia's determination to prolong chaos in the Near East and to complete the discrediting of British and American Diplomacy, combine to work against the policy of the British Government and its collaborators --King Abdulla of Trans-Jordan and the Prime Minister of Iraq, Nuri al Said.


See! Although not made public back then, the CIA could see what Israel was and still is up to, which this now declassified document proves.

It is quite laughable to claim that the above PROVES what Israel is up to! Compare and contrast this with the aims of Hamas for example, who's charter officially calls for the destruction of Israel. Yet, you ignore official policies aimed towards the destruction of Israel, and instead focus on perceptions about Israel from a 60 year old report as proof of their evil intent! Are you someone who regularly trusts the CIA btw???

Your motivations are not rooted in a quest for the truth.

[moon1969]

Oh and the jews are? Jew Ariel Sharon started the Intifada. Sharon knew that what he did would insult other people but as of course he didn"t care. During the second Intifada Israeli settlers have killed over 47 palestinians. Are you zionist jews proud that there has been 982 Palestinian children killed by Israel on 2000-2007? :mad:

[Tin Foil Timothy]

If the area under Israeli control has shrunk since 1967 then you cannot suggest, as you appear to be doing, that Israel is continually expanding. You are deliberately misrepresenting the truth in the hope nobody will question it. Simply repeating this lie does not make it true.

You were the one who thought Israel was 100 years old and that the UN Created Israel. And now you are saying that it's a lie that Israel has expanded since the UN partition plan?

With all respect can I suggest you actually research the subject before diving into a debate. You don't seem very educated on it.



It is quite laughable to claim that the above PROVES what Israel is up to! Compare and contrast this with the aims of Hamas for example, who's charter officially calls for the destruction of Israel.
Yet, you ignore official policies aimed towards the destruction of Israel, and instead focus on perceptions about Israel from a 60 year old report as proof of their evil intent! Are you someone who regularly trusts the CIA btw???

So two wrongs make a right do they? This seems to be a common feature with transparent Israel apologists like yourself. Someone criticizes the actions of Israel and there's retorts of "Well what about xxxxx ?"

Earlier in one of the threads YOU were condemning me for criticizing Israel on the basis that I didn't condemn any injustices of the India-Pakistan partition. I suppose with Hamas you're closer to the issues



Your motivations are not rooted in a quest for the truth.

Huh? A "quest for the truth?" This isn't a conspiracy theory. This is about the Israel/Palestinian problem.

I also notice I seem to be a focal point for your attentions on this forum. The vast majority of your posts are in reply to mine. Why is that? You even PMed me when I first arrived here with some mistaken notion that I was some buddy of yours. I don't think so. You seem very odd.

You also seem reticent to show your own views on the subject, while mostother posters have no problem with this. So in order to understand your position more clearly I will repeat the questions I asked you previously. I noticed you failed to answer them the first time

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement/Israel Lobby for it's power in influencing America's Middle East foreign policy to teh extent where it's probably not in America's best interests?

Do you think the collective punishment of the Palestinians is fair?

[Doctor Evil]

T

And yes I do believe that Israel's agenda is expansionism....

You want content? Here's content.

from article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_181#Con sequences)

By March 1949, a classified CIA report declared Palestine was a 'Long Range Disaster'. The Agency report read in part:

'The establishment of the State of Israel by force, with intimidation of the Arab governments by the US and USSR, with the cutting off of the British arms and ammunition (the Arabs only source of supply), with ample sources for Israel of munitions and finance, the Israeli battle victory is complete, but it has solved nothing.

If boundaries to an Israeli State, any boundaries, had been set and guaranteed by the Great Powers, peace might return to the area. On the contrary, we have actually a victorious state which is limited to no frontiers and which is determined that no narrow limits shall be set. The Near East is faced with the almost certain prospect of a profound and growing disturbance by Israel which may last for decades... ...Instead of restoring the boundaries of the province of Judea as they were in 70 A.D., the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire. Their present possessions are regarded by them as only a beachhead into the Arab and Muslim World -- a large part of which they plan to exploit. They are not prepared to live off what the land will yield as the Arabs do... ...Alone among the Great Powers, Britain has been working on a plan to restore a balance between the forces in Palestine, but it already appears that this plan is doomed to fail. Zionist pressure in the USA, Anglophobia in Iraq and Egypt, and above all, Russia's determination to prolong chaos in the Near East and to complete the discrediting of British and American Diplomacy, combine to work against the policy of the British Government and its collaborators --King Abdulla of Trans-Jordan and the Prime Minister of Iraq, Nuri al Said.


See! Although not made public back then, the CIA could see what Israel was and still is up to, which this now declassified document proves.

This expansionist policy is being implemented by both the slow eroding of the west bank and the ghettoisation of the people of Gaza ( Who only in the last few days have once again had food denied them )

What amazes me is that if any other country had acted the way Israel has and continues to do, then there would be international outcry. Perhaps even military intervention.

But no, Israel is protected by it's lobby in the US which encourages cries of "anti-semitism!" and "Why do you always pick on Israel?" every time it's behavior is criticized.


So tell me this.... Why is Israel allowed to get away with behavior that other countries can't?

Oh, the wonders of google and wikipedia research. You did not bother to actually read the paper you cite, did you? Unfortunately for you, I did.

The document is an 8 pages report, which is composed of a summary of a collection of interviews. It can not be described as an intelligence evaluation by any means.

In fact, I do not believe the source of information belong to the CIA. It is probably some diplomat, which may be either a US citizen, or foreign. Another option is that it is a CIA operative. How do I know that? As it happens, the first page contain subtle hints. For instance, the is the title 'Acquired by source:' with the identity source blacked out. Similarly, there is a heading with 'place acquired:'. Another hit is the heading "THIS IS UNEVALUATED INFORMATION" which appear before the content.

What this means you may ask? This means that the content does not constitute any estimates of the CIA. None!

On to the content. It includes 4 pages summary, and then some direct citations from sources, whose identity is not revealed. I will be back to the direct quotes later, but first, let us examine the summary, which includes the parts you cited.

From the paragraph you cited:
Instead of restoring the boundaries of the Province of Judea as ther were now freely state, though usually unofficially, their demand to an ever expanding empire. While we do not know who complied this information, we already know one thing about him, namely that he had no clue. The borders of Judea?? Did he believed that anyone actually knew exactly what these were. Moreover, why Judea, why not one of the ancient Isrealite kingdoms?


Weirdly, some paragraphs you have cited are not reproduced in full. Here is one of them:
The index of cost of living in Israel has risen to 500% of what it was in that area from 1933 to 1939. Having driven out the Arabs from thier homes Israel lacks cheap labor and without a very large per capita subsidy the economy of the state would soon collapse. This Israeli government intends to prevent this by promising to continue to secure funds from Zionsts and other sympathizers abroad by large loans, and as soon as possible, by the exploitation of the Arab hinterland, especially the agriculture and industries of Syria and Iraq. it seems that whoever wrote this believed that Israel must invade Syria and Iraq to save its economy. That is weird, 60 years have passed, and I think I would have noticed if that have ever happened.

Later in the document:
Although intelligent leaders have managed to hold Syria together, it is believed by some foreign diplomats and many Arab leaders that Syria, as a nation will break up in two or three years ...More accurate predictions. Lovely.

From the part concerning Russia's role:
The USSR will help Israel expand until the Arab Governments as well as Britain and American policies are completely discredited. The Russians will then decide whether to make a puppet of the Zionists or of the Arabs ...Now we go to the direct citations from the interviews. I have decided to cite an amusing one:
P. "The U.S. government has lost both Israel and the Arabs. Israel is already a tool of Russia. The Arabs can never cooperate with Russia, but they have lost all faith in the U.S. ...Really.

I think I had enough of copying. Lets get to the claim that "the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire."
Which leaders have said that?? To whom? This is not specified in the report.

It gets worse. To the best of my judgment the leading part of the paper is composed of various interviews. Direct quotes from the same interviews are given in the second part. We are not supplied with the list of interviewees. However, after reading all the direct citations, it is clear to me that none of these interviewees is an Israeli. In fact, most of them are Arabs. As a result, it is likely that the said opinion is in fact the opinion of one of the Arab leaders. Alternatively, it may be an opinion of a diplomat. It is did not came directly from any Israeli leader. Anyway, this claim never appear in this part of the document.

To summarize, the document is not a CIA evaluation of intelligence, but rather a collection of information prior to evaluation. It may be the opinion of one diplomat, or source, but it can not be presented as the opinion of the CIA.

The claim that Israeli leaders want an 'ever ending expansion' does not include any detail and is not likely to have been obtained directly from any Israeli leader. None of the information in this document seem to have come from Israeli sources.

In addition, the paper contains weird opinions and predictions, such as the reference to ancient Judea, and the prediction that Israel would have to Invade Syria and Iraq for economic purposes.

Before concluding, let me ask you a question. Let us assume that you were right and these shifty Zionist leaders would only want never ending expansion. Can you tell me why would they want that? How would you stop them? Would a change of government do? How do you think they intended to achieve this? Israel is small and the Arab world is big. If they would have wanted to do that, shouldn't they have started in 1949-1950, when the Arab world was in disarray?
(Answer, if that was their goal, then that was the time. However, they were instead busy settling huge number of Jewish refugees. Unlike your weird conspiracy theories, the early leaders of Isreal had other things to worry about.)

That is enough. I am tired of this. Moreover, I fully expect that you will ignore most of my point, and instead choose to google some other factoid which fits you preconceived bias. If this is the case, do not expect me to respond.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

In fact, I do not believe the source of information belong to the CIA. It is probably some diplomat, which may be either a US citizen, or foreign. Another option is that it is a CIA operative. How do I know that? As it happens, the first page contain subtle hints. For instance, the is the title 'Acquired by source:' with the identity source blacked out. Similarly, there is a heading with 'place acquired:'. Another hit is the heading "THIS IS UNEVALUATED INFORMATION" which appear before the content.

What this means you may ask? This means that the content does not constitute any estimates of the CIA. None!


Actually it means that you have made assumptions to fit YOUR pre-concieved bias.



That is enough. I am tired of this. Moreover, I fully expect that you will ignore most of my point, and instead choose to google some other factoid which fits you preconceived bias. If this is the case, do not expect me to respond.

Well you've no other recourse that google, wikipedia and associated webpages have you? I love it when arguments mocking Internet Research are made using Internet research. The joys of the Forum warrior.

So Israel isn't embarked upon expansionism because it hasn't invaded the whole of the Middle East yet? Now there's a sensible argument if I ever heard one.

The following statement of yours made me laugh out loud..

Israel is small and the Arab world is big.

Not only has Israel a huge military equipped with all the modern weapons it also the only nuclear power in the region. And that's without the unconditional military support of the USA the largest military force by far in the whole world.

It's pure comedy to suggest that Israel is a poor tiny country overshadowed by this big bad Arab threat. In 2006 Israel bombed the crap out of the whole of Lebanon on the pretext of 2 kidnapped soldiers by a militia group hezbollah who resided in the southern part of Lebanon. I hardly think the decimation of a neighboring country is the actions of a nation dedicated to peace.

Any Arab/Persian threat to Israel is slowly being crushed. The US has crushed Iraq and taken over, and now Israel is threatening to attack Iran on the propaganda of a "nuclear threat" and the cheap mis-translation of the rhetoric of Ahmadinejad, an Iranian president who hasn't even got any practical power in Iran anyway.

You wasted your time on that long post trying to discredit the CIA report. It only backed up what any unbiased person can see anyway.

Now does Israel want to expand beyond the boundaries the British Mandate of Palestine? Who knows? I'm sure there some Zionist Fundamentalists who would like to. Just as there are islamic fundamentalists who want to spread Islam to the 4 corners.

But we don't need to move outside the mandate boundaries to see the general expansionism.

The UN partition plan formed the basis of the creation of the state of Israel. your rhetoric about the area of land controlled by israel shrinking since 1967 is pure marketing spin. Sinai is a huge area compared to Israel's initial allocation, so of course giving that back to it's rightful owners is going to shrink the land controlled by Israel.

What's important is the initial land allocated to Israel in 1948 and what Israel considers it owns in 2008.

And since then israel has swallowed up the northern Palestinian region. reduce the size of Gaza by at least a half, commandeered a whole 3rd of the west bank as Israeli Military land, built settlements on a huge amount of the rest, taken a triangle of the west bank west of Jerusalem, and worse built 30 foot high concrete walls treating the Palestinians like zoo animals.

Oh and Jerusalem! Never mind it being designated an internationally controlled zone by the UN. Israel has captured half of it and built it's seat of power, the Knesset and Israeli supreme court buildings there. All illegally.

And talking of the UN. The UN, which I appreciate has as much power as a 1 volt battery, has, over the years, passed over a 100 resolutions condemning Israel. All of which have been totally ignored.

The UN are currently condemning Israel for it's barbaric treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza. Walling up over 1 million people in Gaza and then withholding their food supplies is NOT the behavior of a civilized country. it's disgusting behavior!!

And people are defending all this? Any other country acting like this would attract international outcry.

So don't try and paint Israel as some nice little innocent democratic country.

If it didn't have the backing of the powerful Israeli lobby in the US it would be viewed alongside North Korea, Burma, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, Saudi, etc as one of the more nasty regimes in the world.

Oh and before you ask.... I don't hold any of this against the ordinary Israeli citizen anymore than I hold the ordinary American citizen for the slaughter in Iraq. This is the actions of the ruling powers.

Ordinary people, whatever group they belong to are decent hospitable people.

[Doctor Evil]

Actually it means that you have made assumptions to fit YOUR pre-concieved bias.


Well you've no other recourse that google, wikipedia and associated webpages have you? I love it when arguments mocking Internet Research are made using Internet research. The joys of the Forum warrior.


In fact, I have bothered and located a copy of the actual document, rather than used google to find some secondary source.

A cursory look at the document is sufficient to know that it is not an intelligence evaluation of the CIA. It is some compilation of interviews whose information may not be reliable. A closer look shows that the sources are not from the Israeli side, and therefore the claims about something that unspecified Israeli leaders said can not be substantiated.

Whether the source is an CIA employee or not does not really matter. The crucial point is that the information presented has not arrived from the Israeli side, but more likely from people which may had an interest in presenting biased claims. The paper include other claims ans future predictions which are bizarre.

You ignored all that, and instead have started a political rant full of slogans. Substance free post, again.

That's it. Having a discussion with you is as appealing as cleaning toilets in a large army base. It is dirty. It stinks. And it seems to never end. Bye.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

In fact, I have bothered and located a copy of the actual document, rather than used google to find some secondary source.

A cursory look at the document is sufficient to know that it is not an intelligence evaluation of the CIA. It is some compilation of interviews whose information may not be reliable. A closer look shows that the sources are not from the Israeli side, and therefore the claims about something that unspecified Israeli leaders said can not be substantiated.

You say - "A closer look shows that the sources are not from the Israeli side" - And that automatically negates the credibility? I don't think it requires much sensibility to understand that the Israeli establishment is not going to admit it's own desire for expansion. Surely you can't expect that argument to hold water?

Even though no sane person is going to expect a side to incriminate itself you make the point a second time ....


Whether the source is an CIA employee or not does not really matter. The crucial point is that the information presented has not arrived from the Israeli side, but more likely from people which may had an interest in presenting biased claims. The paper include other claims ans future predictions which are bizarre.

You ignored all that, and instead have started a political rant full of slogans. Substance free post, again.

Do you really expect anyone on this forum to believe that a document citing evidence of an Israeli desire of expansionism is null and void because the Israel establishment themselves have not admitted to it?


And further I think it's an insult to the way the Palestinians have been treated to say my previous post is substance free.

I think that document makes you feel uncomfortable. all you can say is it "may not be reliable"

Another of your arguments against the document rest of upon the fact Israel has not invaded the whole region. But that's not the point. The document is no proof in itself, but it does support the very real expansionism that continues to this day. Your spin of Israel being smaller today than in 1967 shows your bias. At least you aren't claiming It's a lie that israel is today larger than the 1948 borders like the poster Trojan_Jockey.

The argument that Israel itself has not criticized itself therefore the criticism is not valid is beyond credibility. Stundie award anyone?



That's it. Having a discussion with you is as appealing as cleaning toilets in a large army base. It is dirty. It stinks. And it seems to never end. Bye.

Yes the truth isn't palatable is it? I can understand why it isn't appealing. How awful to admit the Israeli expansionism and collective punishment of the Palestinians.

My previous post wasn't substance free at all was it? it was aery real description of how it is. And you know it.

[Dubbi]

He might be an anti-semite but his right about the zionists. I haven"t heard any jew talking about how evil Stalin was. Always Hitler this and Hitler that. Day after day. My grandfather lost his home in Karelia after WW2 and got nothing. Zionist and jews got Israel after 1948? Where is the justice in that? You see karelians were humiliated in Finland. I forget it. Every american thinks that jews are better than those karelians or chechens or other people who were victims of Stalin and got nothing afte WW2 but zionists got their own country. :mad:

Hitler was very-very-VERY evil.
Happy?

Moon, you're normally fairly rational. However, here you're bordering on Antisemitism.

I've never heard a Karelian complain about Hitler. Do you know what this means? Precisely nothing.

As a side point, and this shouldn't even be relevant: if you haven't heard a Jew complain about Stalin - it's either out of willful ignorance or a statistical anomaly. Stalin was a world-class anti-Semite. One of his famous pogroms is commemorated at a near-by shul every summer.

[Trojan_Jockey]

You were the one who thought Israel was 100 years old and that the UN Created Israel.

With all respect, that was obviously a mistype. I clearly meant Israel has existed for LESS than 100 years. It seems pretty desperate to repeatedly claim that I ACTUALLY think Israel was created 100 years ago considering that in NO other post before or since have I ever suggested that Israel was created at any time except 1948.

And now you are saying that it's a lie that Israel has expanded since the UN partition plan?

With all respect can I suggest you actually research the subject before diving into a debate. You don't seem very educated on it.

With all respect again, you throw out straw men more often than you incorrectly use the term. Tell me where I say that Israel has not expanded since the UN partition plan please. PLEASE.

Anyway, of more substance, perhaps you could tell us who DID partition Palestine and create the Jewish state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

By the way, try and answer the questions I've put, it does help in a debate.


So two wrongs make a right do they? This seems to be a common feature with transparent Israel apologists like yourself. Someone criticizes the actions of Israel and there's retorts of "Well what about xxxxx ?"

Earlier in one of the threads YOU were condemning me for criticizing Israel on the basis that I didn't condemn any injustices of the India-Pakistan partition. I suppose with Hamas you're closer to the issues.

What do you mean TWO WRONGS?? You have presented no substantial evidence that Israel has a policy of expansion, and I have presented you with an unquestionable written policy of Hamas which declares their goal as the destruction of Israel. yet you equate these two pieces of evidence of equally wrong??

You'd be hard pushed to defend your selective and deliberative bias here, but please try.

Huh? A "quest for the truth?" This isn't a conspiracy theory. This is about the Israel/Palestinian problem.

I also notice I seem to be a focal point for your attentions on this forum. The vast majority of your posts are in reply to mine. Why is that? You even PMed me when I first arrived here with some mistaken notion that I was some buddy of yours. I don't think so. You seem very odd.

You also seem reticent to show your own views on the subject, while mostother posters have no problem with this. So in order to understand your position more clearly I will repeat the questions I asked you previously. I noticed you failed to answer them the first time



lets not make this a personal battle, Smeggypants. :D I could always post a link to your forum where they can read the identical posts, and very same points made time and time again using the same phrases and the same sources, as those you've made here. Only difference is you use the guise of Smeggypants. You KNOW I KNOW who you are. Don't make me embarrass you. I mean, I haven't asked you about your opinion on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion yet, so I've done you a favour so far!

Anyway, back to your questions.

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

No.

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement/Israel Lobby for it's power in influencing America's Middle East foreign policy to teh extent where it's probably not in America's best interests?

No, but your criticisism of "Zionist" power and influence is not about lobby groups.


Do you think the collective punishment of the Palestinians is fair?

No.

By the way, the term is antisemitic, not anti-semitical, which does not exist. I thought you would know that!

[Tin Foil Timothy]

lets not make this a personal battle, Smeggypants. :D I could always post a link to your forum where they can read the identical posts, and very same points made time and time again using the same phrases and the same sources, as those you've made here. Only difference is you use the guise of Smeggypants. You KNOW I KNOW who you are. Don't make me embarrass you. I mean, I haven't asked you about your opinion on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion yet, so I've done you a favour so far!
.....

I've told you twice already that I am not your buddy 'Smeggypants'

[funk de fino]

The OP is about Alex Jones use of the term Zionist as being bigotry.

Read his site, it is plainly true. With the advent of Obama I suspect it will replace all NWO and neo-con references in future.

It is not wrong to criticize zionists but it is wrong to think that Alex Jones even understands what he is saying when he uses it.

IMO

[Trojan_Jockey]

I've told you twice already that I am not your buddy 'Smeggypants'

OK, I'll sort out some links to your site and see what people think about the similarity of your posts to those of Smeggypants. I don't expect anyone is that bothered, but the fact you are denying it is starting to make it into a matter of principle ;).

Anyway, beyond that, how about answering my questions? I did answer yours after all.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

OK, I'll sort out some links to your site and see what people think about the similarity of your posts to those of Smeggypants. I don't expect anyone is that bothered, but the fact you are denying it is starting to make it into a matter of principle ;).

Anyway, beyond that, how about answering my questions? I did answer yours after all.


I'm not your Smeggypants and I don't have a site but whatever dude. :rolleyes:

I'm not the first person to have a view against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and I doubt I'll be the last.

[Trojan_Jockey]

I'm not your Smeggypants and I don't have a site but whatever dude. :rolleyes:

I'm not the first person to have a view against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and I doubt I'll be the last.

Man, you should check it out, he speaks EXACTLY like you! http://www.smeggys.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=687b14fd7d99c69092b0bd9cb1ff074a

Maybe he is stealing your ideas, and your thoughts. Have a look and tell me what you think. This is very interesting, don't you think? You joined the JREF forum shortly after I had been to Smeggys place and told them about the JREF forum, so its even more of a coincidence. Seriously, check it out. Something spooky is going on.

Anyway, what about the issues I raised? Post #87. Care to address them?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

OK, I've decided to check out infowars.com - It's not a very well out site in terms of navigation. I typed Zionist and Zionism into it's search box, but unfortunately the results included user comments which made it almost impossible to locate anything. It really is a rubbish website.

Now the charge of racism is a serious one so could you kindly link to some Alex Jones articles where he is being prejudice against Jews?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Man, you should check it out, he speaks EXACTLY like you! http://www.smeggys.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=687b14fd7d99c69092b0bd9cb1ff074a

Maybe he is stealing your ideas, and your thoughts. Have a look and tell me what you think. This is very interesting, don't you think? You joined the JREF forum shortly after I had been to Smeggys place and told them about the JREF forum, so its even more of a coincidence. Seriously, check it out. Something spooky is going on.

Anyway, what about the issues I raised? Post #87. Care to address them?

You seem obsessed with this Smeggypants. The internet is full of people with similar ideas. You're weird.

[dudalb]

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

I think that is called a "distinction without any real difference".

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I think that is called a "distinction without any real difference".

Sadly for real human beings being persecuted there's a huge difference. What do you think about those being persecuted?

[Trojan_Jockey]

You seem obsessed with this Smeggypants. The internet is full of people with similar ideas. You're weird.

I know CTs never ever admit they are wrong, even over the slightest thing, but if you could address my points it might help.

I'll try again:

You have presented no substantial evidence that Israel has a policy of expansion, except for an unverified personal speculation that is 60 years old. I have presented you with the written policy of Hamas which declares their goal is the destruction of Israel. Yet you equate these two pieces of evidence as equal wrongs?? The goals of Israel are equally wrong as the goals of Hamas, is that what you are saying?

Secondly, who partitioned Palestine to create the state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

Now I know it's better to die than back down on an internet forum, but please try and answer rather than just ignoring it.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I know CTs never ever admit they are wrong, even over the slightest thing, but if you could address my points it might help.

I'll try again:

You have presented no substantial evidence that Israel has a policy of expansion, except for an unverified personal speculation that is 60 years old.

"no substantial evidence" ?

I know you think the UN created Israel but surely you cannot be blind to the comparison of the size of Israel in 1948 and the size of it now. Is it bigger or smaller?

And the settlements, which are still being illegally built on land that not only really belongs to Palestinians, but was designated a Palestinian zone by the partition plan, are still going on. If that's not expansionism I don't know what is. And more new concrete walls are being built further into the West Bank.


I have presented you with the written policy of Hamas which declares their goal is the destruction of Israel. Yet you equate these two pieces of evidence as equal wrongs?? The goals of Israel are equally wrong as the goals of Hamas, is that what you are saying?

I haven't made any proportional comparisons of wrong doings.

But compare this.Israel is actually slowly but surely reducing the land the Palestinians have left. I don't believe Hamas as reduced any land illegally occupied by Israel.


Secondly, who partitioned Palestine to create the state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

Asking such basic questions. What is this? Elementary history? Your question is flawed anyway.

[MaGZ]

Hitler was very-very-VERY evil.
Happy?

Moon, you're normally fairly rational. However, here you're bordering on Antisemitism.

I've never heard a Karelian complain about Hitler. Do you know what this means? Precisely nothing.

As a side point, and this shouldn't even be relevant: if you haven't heard a Jew complain about Stalin - it's either out of willful ignorance or a statistical anomaly. Stalin was a world-class anti-Semite. One of his famous pogroms is commemorated at a near-by shul every summer.

Trotsky complained about Stalin.

[Bobert]

I thought Ron Paul gave the Truth movement the proverbial finger?
He still goes on Jones show?
:confused:

[mrbaracuda]

I know you think the UN created Israel but surely you cannot be blind to the comparison of the size of Israel in 1948 and the size of it now. Is it bigger or smaller?

Why is it bigger? :rolleyes:

[Trojan_Jockey]

"no substantial evidence" ?

I know you think the UN created Israel but surely you cannot be blind to the comparison of the size of Israel in 1948 and the size of it now. Is it bigger or smaller?

It's bigger, but why is it bigger? (Plus, it's borders have shrunk since 1967, so it isn't expanding is it?)

Asking such basic questions. What is this? Elementary history? Your question is flawed anyway.

Well tell me why it is flawed then. Seems perfectly logical based on facts. Who partitioned Palestine to create the state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

[Almo]

So my assumption is that those who are anti-Zionist are concerned with the destruction and demolition of the state of Israel.

Anti-semitic kooks, in other words.

I would consider myself anti-Zionist. But it's because I think the instant creation of Israel was a big mistake. As a semantic point, I consider current Zionism to be what's driving Israel's refusal to get off land they took in the 1967 war. International law says you can't keep land you take in a war even if the other guys started the war.

I'm hardly an anti-Semetic kook.

[Thunder]

who do you think i am....a neo-con right-wing israeli appologist? there is a vocal but less powerful jewish left in the USA and Israel that hates the occupation and seeks a two state solution. lets not forget that 75% of Jewish-Americans voted for Obama. And Obama is no Likudnik.

[Thunder]

anti-semitical .

ooooh!!!!! a new word!!!

:D

[Without Rights]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.


That's not even true. I just searched Infowars and you are a liar. In no way has Zionist replaced NWO. Every mention of Zionist is used in another context completely. Read past the word. Give me one article that makes it, "painfully obvious" that he is a racist.

I heard Paul's interview and didn't think it was crazy. Be more specific. What did he say in particular that was crazy?

[Thunder]

u should avoid calling people a liar. someone, like me, might decide to report you for name calling.

attack the argument..not the arguer.

anyways, i have to agree. i dont think Alex has replaced NWO with Zionist...just yet..anyways.

[1337m4n]

Give me one article that makes it, "painfully obvious" that he is a racist.

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

"The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:"




I await your apology to dudalb.

[Thunder]

can't really contest that only. only anti-semites talk about "jewish arrogance" and the "jewish new world order".

[Thunder]

this is a thread about Israel and Palestine? i thought it was about Alex Jones and anti-Semitism.

[moon1969]

Well one wonders why jews got so much help after WW2 but FDR sold East Europe to Joseph Stalin in Yalta. Winston Churchill supported Tito. These are facts so no need to get angry. Majority of the bolsheviks were jews. Are you denying that Lazar Kaganovich was a jew who was responsbile for Holodomor?

[mrbaracuda]

why do anti-semites always disregard the millions of non-jewish soviet civizens who were members of the communist party?

why do anti-semites always disregard the hundreds of thousands of jews who suffered and died from soviet anti-jewish policies and the gulags?

They simply don't know that part in the first place?! :rolleyes:

[Thunder]

i know im part of it..but this derail has gone far enough. expect it to be sent to History or AAH very soon.

[Chaos]

They simply don't know that part in the first place?! :rolleyes:

Deliberately not doing one´s research before going on a hate crusade is NOT an excuse.

[mrbaracuda]

You're not going to answer it because it proves you are a hypocrite and it would prove your hypocrisy.

Psh, you are just deflecting, didn't you read his post? :rolleyes::D

[moon1969]

Are you denying that Boris Berezovsky was the richest man in Russia when Boris Yeltsin was president? How many russian oligarchs are jews?

[moon1969]

What about AIPAC and the jewish neocons? It is a fact that many jewish leaders were demanding that USA attacks Iraq. How many neocons are jews and why does AIPAC have so much power in foreign policy? It is a fact that USA and UK always put Israel first because there is so much jewish influence.

[moon1969]

Do you deny that jews have major influence in America? Of course jews disagree with eachother and there is no one group of jews but one think all jews in the USA agree and that is that Israel should be defended no matter what. How many jews in the USA don"t support the apartheid State of Israel?

[Dubbi]

Are you denying that Boris Berezovsky was the richest man in Russia when Boris Yeltsin was president? How many russian oligarchs are jews?

a)source for Berezovsky being the richest at the time of Yeltsin
b)demonstrate how he used his "Jewish" influence. I'm excited to see you showcase the "Zionist" influence of a man who converted to Christianity.
c) I take it back - you are in fact an anti-Semite. Please stay in Eastern Europe.

[mrbaracuda]

I don't know if you're anti-semitic

I for one think he is, even though he probably doesn't even know it.

[abenja1]

I for one think he is, even though he probably doesn't even know it.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that he freely criticizes everything about Israel and refuses to comment on other injustices makes him highly suspect.

[mrbaracuda]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that he freely criticizes everything about Israel and refuses to comment on other injustices makes him highly suspect.

Yea, it's hard to tell. This one just reeks of it in my opinion, and his behaviour adds to that. Some, maybe him as well, just suck up the propaganda and live on as an ideologue and "anti-Zionist" (which is, with the reality on the ground we have, pretty disgusting as well, since what do anti-Zionist want anyway?).

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I for one think he is, even though he probably doesn't even know it.

Don't be silly. How can I not know whether I dislike people for being Jewish or not?

Anyway I couldn't a flying **** whether you think I'm anti-semitic or not. I know I'm not racist and that's all that counts.

Although your comment above has such a low IQ it reeks of trolling.

[mrbaracuda]

Don't be silly. How can I not know whether I dislike people for being Jewish or not?

I leave that to you to figure out.

Anyway I couldn't a flying **** whether you think I'm anti-semitic or not. I know I'm not racist and that's all that counts.

Although your comment above has such a low IQ it reeks of trolling.

Look who's "deflecting" now! :rolleyes::D

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I leave that to you to figure out.



Don't be ridiculous. Your statement made no sense and that's why you can't answer it.

[abenja1]

You're fabricating that assertion with no basis. I've told you twice probably three times now, I'm not telling you again.


I think you're defending Israel's crimes because you think they are OK. You denied the collective punishment of the Palestinians because you think it's OK to treat them that way didn't you? You try to defend the crimes of Israel by stating that because someone is not criticizing all the other injustices in the world they are possibly anti-semitic. You wouldn't ask anyone criticizing Darfur if they criticized other injustices but if someone criticizes Israel they are immediately 'suspicious'

Not once have you criticizes the crimes of Israel therefoe I can only assume you agree with them.

I'm coming up with that asserition because you refuse my question. You want to talk about displacing indigenious people, some tribes were wiped out completely, and the many now have been relegated to reservations. Mr. Tin Foil Timothy Who Speaks Out Against All Justives I think you are not. It's only Israel that is evil. And I know it's not an assertion. If you had negative feelings toward what the Euro settlers did, you would've said it. But you didn't and won't. And if you've read my post... you know reading... they teach it to you in school, that I've defended Israel as a country and have made no comment on their actions. And your idea of collective punishment is much more different than mine (ie. I believe all kinds of groups can perform collective punishments. In your own secluded world, only Israel can do collective punihsment.) Once again that is called is hypocrisy. Selectively choosing injustices over others. That's a sad thing to do.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I'm coming up with that asserition because you refuse my question. You want to talk about displacing indigenious people, some tribes were wiped out completely, and the many now have been relegated to reservations. Mr. Tin Foil Timothy Who Speaks Out Against All Justives I think you are not. It's only Israel that is evil. And I know it's not an assertion. If you had negative feelings toward what the Euro settlers did, you would've said it. But you didn't and won't. And if you've read my post... you know reading... they teach it to you in school, that I've defended Israel as a country and have made no comment on their actions. And your idea of collective punishment is much more different than mine (ie. I believe all kinds of groups can perform collective punishments. In your own secluded world, only Israel can do collective punishment.) Once again that is called is hypocrisy. Selectively choosing injustices over others. That's a sad thing to do.

You're making a grave mistake by assuming that just because if focusing on one particular injustice at once that they regard other injustice as OK.

You are putting words in my mouth by stating that I think other injustices are OK.

No I'm not speaking out against all injustices at this time, I am speaking out against the injustices of Israel. but does that mean I don't care about other injustices or worse think they are OK? No of course it doesn't.

(notwithstanding going off the original topic ) This discussion is about Israel and that is what I'm focusing upon.

Yes you are right, My idea of collective punishment is different to yours. Unlike you my idea of collective punishment isn't just restricted to ovens, gassings, executions, etc. And unlike you I also know why Israel was created and it wasn't because of the holocaust. Although that horrendous crime did help push the agenda forward.

Your rhetoric is now a waste of time. I'm not going to travel around in endless circles trying to explain my position to someone who has dug their heels in to an illogical conclusion because they want to defend the crimes of Israel.

FWIW I highly condemn not only the wiping out of indigenous people in North America but also the decimation of the culture and slaughter of the many peoples of South America by the awful entity called Catholicism.

But in this thread I am condemning the crimes of Israel. And let's make one thing clear if nothing else. This has nothing to do with the innocent Israeli citizens who like the innocent Palestinians citizens just want to live in peace. It's a condemnation of the people who have power in Israel. They are the one's driving the expansionism and collective punishments.

And lastly. I hope you become an impartial journalist and a journalist that doesn't lie by omission. A difficult task in this day and age I know. Especially when one values their pay check.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Yea, it's hard to tell. This one just reeks of it in my opinion, and his behaviour adds to that. Some, maybe him as well, just suck up the propaganda and live on as an ideologue and "anti-Zionist" (which is, with the reality on the ground we have, pretty disgusting as well, since what do anti-Zionist want anyway?).

I have to agree with you here. I don't think TFT thinks of himself an an antisemite at all. But as with all CTs and troothers, a desperation to find simplistic explanations for the problems in the world, and a desperate need to believe that "they" are in control of everything that happens, leads one to embrace any radical "non-conformist" idea.

So with Zionsim being at the centre of so many CT's, it does not matter if the anti-Israeli propoganda comes from neo-Nazis, Radical Islamists or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. They don't care. It sounds right, and that's all that matters. Most don't have the analytical skills to differentiate between sources, instead they'll fling around "appeal to authority" if you raise this issue.

There is a certain desperation in CT's not to appear stupid, and in that there is an eagerness to dismiss "official" sources as being for the gullible. The web is a bastion of political extremism, therefore it is full of information to fund every paranoia. No wonder they claim the truth is on the internet, and not in the mainstream media.

[mrbaracuda]

Don't be ridiculous. Your statement made no sense and that's why you can't answer it.

Oh, I've seen this before. It certainly isn't ridiculous.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I have to agree with you here. I don't think TFT thinks of himself an an antisemite at all. But as with all CTs and troothers, a desperation to find simplistic explanations for the problems in the world, and a desperate need to believe that "they" are in control of everything that happens, leads one to embrace any radical "non-conformist" idea.

So with Zionsim being at the centre of so many CT's, it does not matter if the anti-Israeli propoganda comes from neo-Nazis, Radical Islamists or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. They don't care. It sounds right, and that's all that matters. Most don't have the analytical skills to differentiate between sources, instead they'll fling around "appeal to authority" if you raise this issue.

There is a certain desperation in CT's not to appear stupid, and in that there is an eagerness to dismiss "official" sources as being for the gullible. The web is a bastion of political extremism, therefore it is full of information to fund every paranoia. No wonder they claim the truth is on the internet, and not in the mainstream media.

As a new thread has been created this is the last I shall say on the subject here, but what the hell as CT, troother, anti-Israeli propaganda, neo-Nazis, Radical Islamists or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion got to do with this? :confused::confused:

This is about the Israel/Palestine conflict. So why are you ranting about alleged psychological issues of CTers. Are you some kind of pre-programmed bot?

[Trojan_Jockey]

As a new thread has been created this is the last I shall say on the subject here, but what the hell as CT, troother, anti-Israeli propaganda, neo-Nazis, Radical Islamists or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion got to do with this? :confused::confused:

This is about the Israel/Palestine conflict. So why are you ranting about alleged psychological issues of CTers. Are you some kind of pre-programmed bot?

No it isn't. This thread is about Alex Jones, a big time CTer and troother, and whether he is or is not expressing antisemitism in his anti-Zionist rhetoric.

:eek:

Do you want to try calling me weird again, if that helps?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

No it isn't. This thread is about Alex Jones, a big time CTer and troother, and whether he is or is not expressing antisemitism in his anti-Zionist rhetoric.


BS

You know very well that my discussion in here is about the Israel/Palestinian issues and was off topic. You wasn't replying to the Alex jones issues you were replying to meand my criticisms of Israel. Whidh has nothing to do with CT and troothers.

[Without Rights]

u should avoid calling people a liar. someone, like me, might decide to report you for name calling.

attack the argument..not the arguer.

anyways, i have to agree. i dont think Alex has replaced NWO with Zionist...just yet..anyways.

For one, I did attack the argument. And liar is too harsh for you? o.k buddy sorry. I meant he is a person who is lying. Is that better? Or maybe he is the type that will see fault if AJ said the sky was blue, or flowers are pretty. Does that deserve a citation Mr sensitive?

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

[Without Rights]

http://infowars.net/articles/february2008/040208NeoCON.htm

"The Jewish neocon Michael Ledeen, in his recent book, The War Against The Terror Masters, goes right for the jugular. He shows not hesitation in manifesting the venom of his Jewish arrogance and the Jewish neocon agenda to create a Jewish New World Order:"




I await your apology to dudalb.

I am afraid I can't apologize for that one.

Did you watch the video? Do you understand the context of the paragraph you quoted.

If I, a white male made a video declaring that the whites are supreme and will take the world over, you might say that I am an arrogant Caucasian who shows no remorse for his sick white supremest views.

Same thing, no different.

This Michael Ledeen guy is exactly that. He thinks the Jews are supreme and are going to take over the world. He is a Jewish racist. He is arrogant and he wants Jews to rule the world. It is not anti-semitic to call a racist a racist.

[moon1969]

Do you deny that Maxim Litvinov was a jew? It is still a fact that many communist leaders were jews.

[Dubbi]

Do you deny that Maxim Litvinov was a jew? It is still a fact that many communist leaders were jews.

Do you deny that the Three Stooges were Jews? It is still a fact that many top comedians were Jews. Wait, I'm not making a point? That's funny.

[1337m4n]

If I, a white male made a video declaring that the whites are supreme and will take the world over, you might say that I am an arrogant Caucasian who shows no remorse for his sick white supremest views.

Same thing, no different.


Wrong. The author of the article did not say "arrogant Jew", he said "Jewish arrogance". Basic rule of grammar suggests that the meaning of such a phrase is that one's arrogance is purely an effect of one's being Jewish. That is a racist thing to say.

"Arrogant Jew" = a Jew who is arrogant. But that is not what the article said. It clearly said "Jewish arrogance", not "arrogant Jew". "Jewish arrogance" = arrogance as a function of being Jewish--a racist phrase since one's race has nothing whatsoever to do with one's level of arrogance.

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.


This Michael Ledeen guy is exactly that. He thinks the Jews are supreme and are going to take over the world.

I challenge you to provide a direct, in-context quote from Ledeen which clearly indicates such a thing.

Did you watch the video?

That would be most difficult, as the video has been removed "due to Terms of Use violation".

[MaGZ]

Are you denying that Boris Berezovsky was the richest man in Russia when Boris Yeltsin was president? How many russian oligarchs are jews?

"The Jewish Oligarchs (10 of 11 of the most powerful were Jews) grabbed control of at least 65 percent of the wealth of Russia."

http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/austindependence/putin-duke.html

[moon1969]

There are alot of jews in power. Do you deny that jew Henry Kissinger did bad things? Boris Berezovsky robbed Russia and Lazar Kaganovich destroyed Ukraine.

[Thunder]

Moon- you are already talking about the Holodomor in another thread. Is that all you can talk about?

[Thunder]

BS

You know very well that my discussion in here is about the Israel/Palestinian issues and was off topic. You wasn't replying to the Alex jones issues you were replying to meand my criticisms of Israel. Whidh has nothing to do with CT and troothers.

There are those who mostly just critisize Israel, because that is the battle they have chosen to make their own. Others have taken on Sudan, Tibet, the American Indians, Slavery Reperations, etc.

But, there are also folks who have taken up the banner of Palestine, not because they dont have enough time to tackle other conflicts, but because they enjoy targeting Jews.

Tell me, you understand this?

[Dubbi]

"The Jewish Oligarchs (10 of 11 of the most powerful were Jews) grabbed control of at least 65 percent of the wealth of Russia."

http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/austindependence/putin-duke.html

What a surprise: MaGZ posting an article by David Duke. And I was about to invite him over for shabbes.

[Without Rights]

Wrong. The author of the article did not say "arrogant Jew", he said "Jewish arrogance". Basic rule of grammar suggests that the meaning of such a phrase is that one's arrogance is purely an effect of one's being Jewish. That is a racist thing to say.

"Arrogant Jew" = a Jew who is arrogant. But that is not what the article said. It clearly said "Jewish arrogance", not "arrogant Jew". "Jewish arrogance" = arrogance as a function of being Jewish--a racist phrase since one's race has nothing whatsoever to do with one's level of arrogance.

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.




I challenge you to provide a direct, in-context quote from Ledeen which clearly indicates such a thing.



That would be most difficult, as the video has been removed "due to Terms of Use violation".

The video works fine, go here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUmpOBvhfxI

I challenge you to provide a direct, in-context quote from AJ which clearly indicates that he is anti-semitic.

The thread was written to say there is a ton of infowars material that is just in your face racist. This is not true. You got one article that contains no commentary from AJ or any of his staff, the foreword is taken directly from the video. Hardly backs up the statement;

"Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything"

[Tin Foil Timothy]

The video works fine, go here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUmpOBvhfxI

I challenge you to provide a direct, in-context quote from AJ which clearly indicates that he is anti-semitic.

The thread was written to say there is a ton of infowars material that is just in your face racist. This is not true. You got one article that contains no commentary from AJ or any of his staff, the foreword is taken directly from the video. Hardly backs up the statement;

"Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything"

I checked out the infowars site a few days ago and I found it difficult navigate so I asked is someone could provide any proof of Alex Jones being anti-semitic. It seems none is forthcoming.

[Thunder]

prisonplanet frequently has articles about evil zionists and such. the most recent one is about obama's new chief of staff. he is the son of an israeli.

dont christains believe that a son is not guilty of the crimes of his father? i guess not if your from Texas.

[Thunder]

What a surprise: MaGZ posting an article by David Duke. And I was about to invite him over for shabbes.

Its "shabbos"...you silly goy.

:D

[Tin Foil Timothy]

prisonplanet frequently has articles about evil zionists and such. ....

Criticizing Zionists, even calling them evil, doesn't make a person racist though

[Tin Foil Timothy]

There are those who mostly just critisize Israel, because that is the battle they have chosen to make their own. Others have taken on Sudan, Tibet, the American Indians, Slavery Reperations, etc.

But, there are also folks who have taken up the banner of Palestine, not because they dont have enough time to tackle other conflicts, but because they enjoy targeting Jews.

Tell me, you understand this?

Sure I understand that. I'm aware racists exist. But my post you were replying to was tackling a daft inclusion by the other poster about CT and twoofers. Which was nothing to do with my off topic trip to Israel/Palestine issues

[Thunder]

ok

[Thunder]

Criticizing Zionists, even calling them evil, doesn't make a person racist though

calling zionists "filthy christ killing blood sucking satan worshipping money lending pigs"...indeed makes someone a racist."

do you not agree that SOME anti-zionists...are motivated by hatred of jews?

[Dubbi]

Its "shabbos"...you silly goy.

:D

Parky,

I use the far superior Northern Yiddish(Litvish). Even within the conspiracy, I'm still at the top.

A brokh under kep,
Dubbi

[Without Rights]

prisonplanet frequently has articles about evil zionists and such. the most recent one is about obama's new chief of staff. he is the son of an israeli.

dont christains believe that a son is not guilty of the crimes of his father? i guess not if your from Texas.

Not quite what the article says. It says he is the son of the Israeli terrorist group Irgun.

"Rahm Emanuel’s father was member of militant terror group that bombed hotels, massacred villagers"

They are not guilty of the crimes but one can ascertain that a son would likely adopt the religious beliefs of their father. Christians have Christian kids and so forth. It is definitely a scar on a politician, maybe that is why we haven't heard it as much as we hear about the Brittney Spears.

[Without Rights]

calling zionists "filthy christ killing blood sucking satan worshipping money lending pigs"...indeed makes someone a racist."




No it doesn't, Zionism is not a race.

[Thunder]

No it doesn't, Zionism is not a race.

why are you trying to change the subject? using obviously anti-jewish curses and insults..to refer to Zionists..is the point.

ofcourse...Zionists arent a race. some of the hardest Zionists in America are Christians. but thats not the point..and i think you know it.

[Thunder]

Not quite what the article says. It says he is the son of the Israeli terrorist group Irgun.

"Rahm Emanuel’s father was member of militant terror group that bombed hotels, massacred villagers"

They are not guilty of the crimes but one can ascertain that a son would likely adopt the religious beliefs of their father. Christians have Christian kids and so forth. It is definitely a scar on a politician, maybe that is why we haven't heard it as much as we hear about the Brittney Spears.

ah..so if your father is a zionist terrorist.....you are one too. thats nice.

my grandfather was a right-wing racist. my dad is a bleading heart liberal. pleese explain that one.

my dad has no car..cant fix things for shoot. i own a car..and install my own a/c, light fixtures, and make stuff out of wood. explain that one.

[Thunder]

Parky,

I use the far superior Northern Yiddish(Litvish). Even within the conspiracy, I'm still at the top.

A brokh under kep,
Dubbi

My dear man,

My mother's mom's family is from Minsk. Which clearly makes me a Litvak.

Silly Landsman. :D

[Dubbi]

My dear man,

My mother's mom's family is from Minsk. Which clearly makes me a Litvak.

Silly Landsman. :D

However, "Shabbos" isn't Litvish. Someone clearly wasn't learning from the mother. It's similar to the two different pronunciations for miztvot: miztves vs. miztvos. MitzvES is litvish.

Zay Gezunt,
Dubbi

See MaGZ,

The real conspiracy is not Jews trying to pose as goyim, but rather southern Jews trying to pose as Litvaks. We, Litvaks, are at the very top. Now go spread the truth.

[Without Rights]

why are you trying to change the subject? using obviously anti-jewish curses and insults..to refer to Zionists..is the point.

ofcourse...Zionists arent a race. some of the hardest Zionists in America are Christians. but thats not the point..and i think you know it.

I know what was meant. Linking people who are prejudice against Zionism with anti-Semitic people.

"Zionism is an international political movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_political_movements) that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_People) in Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine)." [Wiki]

Do those who hate this political group, also hate Jews?

[Without Rights]

ah..so if your father is a zionist terrorist.....you are one too. thats nice.

my grandfather was a right-wing racist. my dad is a bleading heart liberal. pleese explain that one.

my dad has no car..cant fix things for shoot. i own a car..and install my own a/c, light fixtures, and make stuff out of wood. explain that one.


A little different than being involved in a group that killed people. You don't find that to be a concern in the least. Even when Rahm Emmanuel calls himself an ardent Zionist.

[Thunder]

A little different than being involved in a group that killed people. You don't find that to be a concern in the least. Even when Rahm Emmanuel calls himself an ardent Zionist.

If Rahm Emmanuel's dad killed civilians, he should be held accountable. Only 3rd century pigs think that a son should be held responsible for the sins of his father.

and since when is believing in the existance of the jewish state....a crime?

Im sure Emmanuel is against the illegal West Bank settlemants and wants a Palestinian state.

is there anything about being jewish that is not a crime?

[Thunder]

I know what was meant. Linking people who are prejudice against Zionism with anti-Semitic people.

"Zionism is an international political movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_political_movements) that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_People) in Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine)." [wiki]

Do those who hate this political group, also hate Jews?

in 1947...absolutely not. many many jews were against Zionism for political, cultural, religous, and other reasons.

but that does not change the OBVIOUS fact that many ant-Zionists are really just closeted (and sometimes out of the closet) anti-Semites too.

so far, I do not believe that you are one of them.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Criticizing Zionists, even calling them evil, doesn't make a person racist though
calling zionists "filthy christ killing blood sucking satan worshipping money lending pigs"...indeed makes someone a racist."

has Alex Jones called Zionists "filthy christ killing blood sucking satan worshipping money lending pigs" then?



do you not agree that SOME anti-zionists...are motivated by hatred of jews?

Sure I agree. But racism is a prejudice. And by far the most criticism of Zionism I've seen is not about prejudice ( whether someone is Jewish or not ) and not even about the basic right of Jews to have a homeland state.

It's about the way Israel was created without regard for the place it was created on, the occupation of Jerusalem and the continued expansion and treatment of the Palestinians. And the way Israel can get away with all this because of the powerful influence of zionist groups like AIPAC, JINSA and IASPS

People also see this influence in post 911 'conflicts'

And I see people getting labeled as Anti-Semitic(racist) all the time for what isn't prejudice but is political and behavioral criticism. The ADL have been guilty of trying time and time again to get definition of Anti-Semitism extended above and beyond racism. They are still trying to get Merriam-Webster to keep the 2nd and 4rd definitions of anti-semitism.

[Thunder]

i tell you one thing, if the palestinians hadn't been blowing up innocent civilians in buses and pizza parlors over the last 15 years, they would have gotten a whole lot more support from the American people. just as the South Africans and civil rights protestors of the 60s.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

i tell you one thing, if the palestinians hadn't been blowing up innocent civilians in buses and pizza parlors over the last 15 years, they would have gotten a whole lot more support from the American people. just as the South Africans and civil rights protestors of the 60s.

The American people get a pro-Israel bias in the media. If they saw a real view of the place then they'd have even less sympathy for Israel.

[Thunder]

The American people get a pro-Israel bias in the media. If they saw a real view of the place then they'd have even less sympathy for Israel.

i would agree that we get a pro-israel view from the media. but im not so sure we would be more pro-palestinians if the media was unbiased. 9-11 has made the american people very unfond of islamic extremism and islamic terrorism. the days of the secular bi-national state Palestinian are over.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

i would agree that we get a pro-israel view from the media. but im not so sure we would be more pro-palestinians if the media was unbiased. 9-11 has made the american people very unfond of islamic extremism and islamic terrorism. the days of the secular bi-national state Palestinian are over.

People who judge innocent people because there are those in the same group who do bad things are jerks.

It works both ways. People who hate all Jews because some Jews do bad things are just as bad as those who hate all Arabs/Persians because some Arabs/Persians do bad things.

I've heard more than a few people on this forum condone the collective punishment of the Palestinians because of a few suicide bombers. Yet these same people are quick to throw out cries of Anti-Semitism if even a focussed criticism of not all Jews but the behavior of some Jews is proclaimed. By that they are being more racist than the people they are accusing of racism.

Many people are quick to label criticism as anti-semitic if it's focused on Israel. But what if we started labeling those who focused their defense of Israel and not similar crimes by other countries as racist too? It works both ways

[Thunder]

i assume you are smart enough to distinguish between criticism of Israel that is legit, and criticism of Israel that is founded in hatred of Jews. so dont worry about the boys who cry "anti-Semitism" inorder to deflect criticism.

and as to a so-called "double standard" being applied to israel, this is more then justified and deserved due to the double-standard that israel expects to be treated by the rest of the world.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

i assume you are smart enough to distinguish between criticism of Israel that is legit, and criticism of Israel that is founded in hatred of Jews. so dont worry about the boys who cry "anti-Semitism" inorder to deflect criticism.

I'm smart enough to know that " the boys who cry "anti-Semitism" in order to deflect criticism." like the ADL and those who follow that line are doing a lot of harm and discouraging people from speaking out.

My own experience of being called anti-semitic by jerks is more than enough to understand that




and as to a so-called "double standard" being applied to israel, this is more then justified and deserved due to the double-standard that israel expects to be treated by the rest of the world.

No it's not deserved and justified. Everyone should be treated the same. Israel should not enjoy special treatment and special immunity from criticism.

Of course it does enjoy such privileges and advantages and I understand why. But that doesn't make it right

[Thunder]

I'm smart enough to know that " the boys who cry "anti-Semitism" in order to deflect criticism." like the ADL and those who follow that line are doing a lot of harm and discouraging people from speaking out.

My own experience of being called anti-semitic by jerks is more than enough to understand that





No it's not deserved and justified. Everyone should be treated the same. Israel should not enjoy special treatment and special immunity from criticism.

Of course it does enjoy such privileges and advantages and I understand why. But that doesn't make it right

why do you think it is? Holocaust guilt?

[MarkCorrigan]

i tell you one thing, if the palestinians hadn't been blowing up innocent civilians in buses and pizza parlors over the last 15 years, they would have gotten a whole lot more support from the American people. just as the South Africans and civil rights protestors of the 60s.

Are you saying that the civil rights protesters AND those fighting apartheid used non violent means?


Umm...what do you think Nelson Mandela was locked up for Parky?

[Thunder]

Are you saying that the civil rights protesters AND those fighting apartheid used non violent means?


Umm...what do you think Nelson Mandela was locked up for Parky?

non-violent protest was the cornerstone of the American Civil Rights Movement's strategy..and it worked like a charm.

the cornerstone of the Palestinian resistance, has been violence, against anyone and everyone that is an Israeli. this has not worked very well.

just the facts Jack. just the facts.

[Without Rights]

If Rahm Emmanuel's dad killed civilians, he should be held accountable. Only 3rd century pigs think that a son should be held responsible for the sins of his father.

and since when is believing in the existance of the jewish state....a crime?

Im sure Emmanuel is against the illegal West Bank settlemants and wants a Palestinian state.

is there anything about being jewish that is not a crime?


One, I never said anything bad about Zionists or the existence of a Jewish state, I simply said the article wasn't as simple as you tried to lead people to believe.

You tried to make it seem as if the Alex was downing Rahm simply for being the son of a Zionist. Therefore making him seem intolerant. He was talking about him being the son of terrorist. You've heard of terrorism right? Would you let Osama Bin Laden Jr be the Sec of Defense?

Now you are trying to demonize me by insinuating that I feel something is wrong with Zionism.

This would be a lot simpler if you actually read what I write and jump out of your offensive mode.

Your oversimplification's are becoming tiresome.

[MarkCorrigan]

non-violent protest was the cornerstone of the American Civil Rights Movement's strategy..and it worked like a charm.

the cornerstone of the Palestinian resistance, has been violence, against anyone and everyone that is an Israeli. this has not worked very well.

just the facts Jack. just the facts.

You didn't just mention America though parky. You also mentioned South Africa. South African resistance, bar the works of Ghandi, was very much violent.

[Without Rights]

in 1947...absolutely not. many many jews were against Zionism for political, cultural, religous, and other reasons.

but that does not change the OBVIOUS fact that many ant-Zionists are really just closeted (and sometimes out of the closet) anti-Semites too.

so far, I do not believe that you are one of them.

There are a few political movements within the Jewish Religion/Race. I can agree that some opposer's are the way you describe. But most are educated people who disagree with the political positions of Zionism. But there are extremes on both side which fuel the fire. There are some Zionists who are extreme and hateful just the same as those hateful opposer's of Zionism. I do not agree that most people who oppose Zionism are closet Anti-Semites. I would like to think that would be a small percent. After all, I have never met an anti-Semite in my life.

[sleeplessdwarf]

One, I never said anything bad about Zionists or the existence of a Jewish state, I simply said the article wasn't as simple as you tried to lead people to believe.

You tried to make it seem as if the Alex was downing Rahm simply for being the son of a Zionist. Therefore making him seem intolerant. He was talking about him being the son of terrorist. You've heard of terrorism right? Would you let Osama Bin Laden Jr be the Sec of Defense?

Now you are trying to demonize me by insinuating that I feel something is wrong with Zionism.

This would be a lot simpler if you actually read what I write and jump out of your offensive mode.

Your oversimplification's are becoming tiresome.


Without having to debate whether or not anyone's kin were terrorist, how do you compare Bin Ladens to Rahm Emanuel's dad? Did Mr Emanuel plan to bring down america? What does Rahm have to do with a family that had at least one member openly admit his hate for our country? If you have a quote from an Emanuel doing just that, you would be helping me out by posting. Thx.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

non-violent protest was the cornerstone of the American Civil Rights Movement's strategy..and it worked like a charm.

the cornerstone of the Palestinian resistance, has been violence, against anyone and everyone that is an Israeli. this has not worked very well.

just the facts Jack. just the facts.


The facts are that Israel was created on land that previously belonged to others and has expanded it's territory and persecuted the Palestinians often violently and some Palestinians have responded with violent means.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

why do you think it is? Holocaust guilt?

The holocaust has been used to guilt trip people into not criticizing Israel for sure.

But it's the broader influence of the Zionist lobby and it's organizations like the ADL that have instilled a pro-Israel bias and attached the label of racism on anything that criticizes the behavior of Israel.

Not to mention the role of the media.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Without having to debate whether or not anyone's kin were terrorist, how do you compare Bin Ladens to Rahm Emanuel's dad? Did Mr Emanuel plan to bring down america? What does Rahm have to do with a family that had at least one member openly admit his hate for our country? If you have a quote from an Emanuel doing just that, you would be helping me out by posting. Thx.

That's not the point. If we're going to separate the views of a son to their father then there'd be no logical reason why Osama Bin laden's son couldn't be Chief Of staff if he had American Citizenship.

But we all know that would never happen

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I do not agree that most people who oppose Zionism are closet Anti-Semites. I would like to think that would be a small percent. After all, I have never met an anti-Semite in my life.

Neither do I. While I'm sure they exist somewhere I've never met an anti-semite either. I've met lots of people who don't like the behavior of the Zionist movement though.

We have a culture in the West where people are encouraged to point the finger of likely Anti-semitism onto those who do criticize Zionism.

This is a tactic to stifle legitimate political criticism.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Neither do I. While I'm sure they exist somewhere I've never met an anti-semite either. I've met lots of people who don't like the behavior of the Zionist movement though.

We have a culture in the West where people are encouraged to point the finger of likely Anti-semitism onto those who do criticize Zionism.

This is a tactic to stifle legitimate political criticism.

No it isn't, its a tactic of pointing out unfair and disproportionate criticism of one country. A country which happens to be the homeland of the most persecuted people in the history of the world, who have also been subject of antisemitic conspiracy theories claiming they control power, politics and media. No wonder we are suspicious when you repeat the same propoganda.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Now there's a surprise!

[Tin Foil Timothy]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

Sorry if I missed it, but did we ever get any evidence of Alex Jones' prejudice against Jews?

[funk de fino]

Sorry if I missed it, but did we ever get any evidence of Alex Jones' prejudice against Jews?

Go read his site.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Go read his site.

Not good enough.

And, I did go to his site. The navigation was terrible. I'm not going to trawl though thousands of articles.

You obviously have read them, so please provide links.

[Thunder]

Sorry if I missed it, but did we ever get any evidence of Alex Jones' prejudice against Jews?

he and watson have this incredible habit of labeling all jews in govt. as being "dual-citizens".

yet they have provided ZERO evidence that anyone who works for Bush..or will work for Obama..is an Israeli citizen.

Chertoff...MAY be an israeli national...due to his mother's citizenship. but he is not a citizen nor does he possess an israeli passport. the same for rahm immanuel.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

he and watson have this incredible habit of labeling all jews in govt. as being "dual-citizens".



Well that's a bit stupid.

But I'm still waiting for links to Jones's alleged anti-semitism. And please no one else tell me to read the whole goddamn website. If anyone's see anti-semitism there you'll know where it is and can easily link to it.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Well that's a bit stupid.

But I'm still waiting for links to Jones's alleged anti-semitism. And please no one else tell me to read the whole goddamn website. If anyone's see anti-semitism there you'll know where it is and can easily link to it.

Labeling Jews in government as "dual-citizens" ISN'T antsemitic???

[Thunder]

Well that's a bit stupid.

But I'm still waiting for links to Jones's alleged anti-semitism. And please no one else tell me to read the whole goddamn website. If anyone's see anti-semitism there you'll know where it is and can easily link to it.

labeling all and any jews in govermant as "dual-citizens" is anti-semitic.

i work for the govt. my dad worked for the govt. my uncle worked for the govt. my cousin just joined the navy.

are we dual-citizens? tell me that to my face.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

labeling all and any jews in govermant as "dual-citizens" is anti-semitic.

i work for the govt. my dad worked for the govt. my uncle worked for the govt. my cousin just joined the navy.

are we dual-citizens? tell me that to my face.

Are people in government allowed to have dual citizenship?

And why is having a dual-citizenship offensive?

[Thunder]

are you playing dumb?

the accusation is that jews in governmant hold dual-citizenship with the USA and Israel..therefore they hold an official allegiance to both countries..and cannot be trusted to be a patriotic American.

but so far, they have failed to prove that ANY high-positioned jews in the US government hold israeli citizenship OR an israeli passport.


soon I am gonna have to ask you to come off your naive rhoutine.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

are you playing dumb?

the accusation is that jews in governmant hold dual-citizenship with the USA and Israel..therefore they hold an official allegiance to both countries..and cannot be trusted to be a patriotic American.

but so far, they have failed to prove that ANY high-positioned jews in the US government hold israeli citizenship OR an israeli passport.


soon I am gonna have to ask you to come off your naive rhoutine.

I'll ask again .. Are people in government allowed to have dual citizenship? Yes or No?

You said you work in government so I assume you'd know the answer. If you don't know please say so and maybe someone else can answer.

I already said that it was stupid accusing all Jews in government of having dual-citizenship. And I know why such an accusation would be made.

In fact it's even more stupid as one doesn't need to hold dual citizenship in order to have allegiances.

The US Administration, what the nationality, or ethnicity of it's members, already has strong allegiance to Israel.

Often at the expense of Americans. The middle east foreign policy is proof of that.

[Trojan_Jockey]

are you playing dumb?

the accusation is that jews in governmant hold dual-citizenship with the USA and Israel..therefore they hold an official allegiance to both countries..and cannot be trusted to be a patriotic American.

but so far, they have failed to prove that ANY high-positioned jews in the US government hold israeli citizenship OR an israeli passport.


soon I am gonna have to ask you to come off your naive rhoutine.

TFT has me on ignore, but it appears that he is telling you that its stupid, but not antisemtic to accuse Jews in government of having dual-citizenship. Bizarre! Does Alex Jones accuse other non-Jewish members of the government of this?

Furthermore, he seems to be saying that dual citizenship is irrelevant, as everyone in government is devoted to Israel. Why this should be, I don't know. Perhaps he could explain what makes the welfare of the Jewish homeland so important it would be placed above the welfare of the US?

I also think this poster would jump through a thousand hoops rather than concede anything he believed was antisemitic.

[Thunder]

I'll ask again .. Are people in government allowed to have dual citizenship? Yes or No?

You said you work in government so I assume you'd know the answer. If you don't know please say so and maybe someone else can answer.

I already said that it was stupid accusing all Jews in government of having dual-citizenship. And I know why such an accusation would be made.

In fact it's even more stupid as one doesn't need to hold dual citizenship in order to have allegiances.

The US Administration, what the nationality, or ethnicity of it's members, already has strong allegiance to Israel.

Often at the expense of Americans. The middle east foreign policy is proof of that.

The USA also has a strong allegiance to Great Britain. Even though we rebelled against them and fought two wars against them. Why is that?

The USA also has a strong allegiance to Canada. We protect them along with protecting us. Could there be a secret Canadian conspiracy?

The USA also has a strong allegiance to Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, and Lithuania. We would consider a Russian attack upon any one of these countries, to be an attack upon the United States. Oh my....why is that? Must be some Central European conspiracy!!!!

[Tin Foil Timothy]

The USA also has a strong allegiance to Great Britain. Even though we rebelled against them and fought two wars against them. Why is that?

The USA also has a strong allegiance to Canada. We protect them along with protecting us. Could there be a secret Canadian conspiracy?

The USA also has a strong allegiance to Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, and Lithuania. We would consider a Russian attack upon any one of these countries, to be an attack upon the United States. Oh my....why is that? Must be some Central European conspiracy!!!!

Are people in government allowed to have dual citizenship? Yes or No?

[Thunder]

im actually not sure as to the rules in the Federal govt. why dont you tell us the answer?

[gtc]

I already said that it was stupid accusing all Jews in government of having dual-citizenship. And I know why such an accusation would be made.

Why would such an accusation be made?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Why would such an accusation be made?

Sorry that was a mistake. I meant to say I don't know why an accusation should be made.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

im actually not sure as to the rules in the Federal govt. why dont you tell us the answer?

I wouldn't be asking you if I knew the answer. I was asking you because I don't know.

[Thunder]

i really do not know whether or not it is illegal for federal employees to hold dual-citizenship. regardless, the point is that Wolfowitz, Wermser, Chertoff, Zakheim, Immanuel, and pretty much all other Jews in high positions in our governmant have been accused of being dual-citizens. no evidence has been provided to back up these claims...and should be pretty easy to prove if it was indeed true.

anti-semites have been acucusing Jews of having dual-loyalty for centuries. the dual-citizenship angle is still the same anti-Jewish crap.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

i really do not know whether or not it is illegal for federal employees to hold dual-citizenship. regardless, the point is that Wolfowitz, Wermser, Chertoff, Zakheim, Immanuel, and pretty much all other Jews in high positions in our governmant have been accused of being dual-citizens. no evidence has been provided to back up these claims...and should be pretty easy to prove if it was indeed true.


Exactly why I think it's a stupid thing to accuse someone of and why I don't know why they have accused them. If someone is 'Israel First' in goernment then they are going to behave that way whether they have dual citizenship or not.


anti-semites have been acucusing Jews of having dual-loyalty for centuries. the dual-citizenship angle is still the same anti-Jewish crap.

This old "Anti-semites said/did that. You are saying/doing that, therefore you are an anti-semite!" argument is logical crapola.

And seems to be what most of your anti-semite accusations are based upon.

[Thunder]

And seems to be what most of your anti-semite accusations are based upon.

you have no idea what you are talking about and you are waaay out of your league. i suggest you stick to subjects you can handle.

[Trojan_Jockey]

you have no idea what you are talking about and you are waaay out of your league. i suggest you stick to subjects you can handle.

Bravo that man!

I suggest TFT sticks to his simplistic world where David Dees art is considered poignant political satire! Oh, and not antisemitic either.

[gtc]

Calling someone disloyal for no other reason than they are Jewish is anti-semitism.

Its not anti-zionist or anti-Mossad. Its anti-Jewish. There is no two ways about it.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

you have no idea what you are talking about and you are waaay out of your league. i suggest you stick to subjects you can handle.

Getting personal and patronising with a substanceless reply is only showing the failure of your arguments. You could have bowed out more gracefully than that!

At least I know what racism is.

[Thunder]

you couldn't spot anti-Semitism (or would refuse to) if it was slapping you in the face.

you prefer to live in a world where only swastika wearing skinheads or white sheeted klansmen are anti-semites. if he wears regular clothes, and claims to only be "anti-Zionist", then he is as he says..right?

do you believe it is possible that some anti-Zionists are actually also anti-Semitic?

are you capable of accepting that possibility?

and...most importantly..do you think that I label all anti-Zionists "anti-Semites"? this i would really like to know.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

you couldn't spot anti-Semitism (or would refuse to) if it was slapping you in the face.

Wrong. I know what racism is.


you prefer to live in a world where only swastika wearing skinheads or white sheeted klansmen are anti-semites. if he wears regular clothes, and claims to only be "anti-Zionist", then he is as he says..right?

do you believe it is possible that some anti-Zionists are actually also anti-Semitic?

Of course but I believe that most, in fact the vast majority , are not anti-semites




and...most importantly..do you think that I label all anti-Zionists "anti-Semites"? this i would really like to know.

No, but shouting "anti-semitical pig" at Alex Jones when we've yet to see any evidence of him being a racist is not playing fair.

[Thunder]

when you blaim the Mossad, without any evidence, for everything bad that happens on Earth, then yes, I suspect some anti-Semitism might be act work.

if you blaimed the CIA for anything and everything..id call you anti-American.

if you blaimed Islam for anything and everything..id call you anti-Muslim.

sue me. i call it as i see it. what are ya...Alex Jones' protector?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

when you blaim the Mossad, without any evidence, for everything bad that happens on Earth, then yes, I suspect some anti-Semitism might be act work.

You're showing double standards. Alex Jones is suspecting Mossad might be to blame without evidence. You are suspecting Alex jone's is anti-semitic without evidence.


if you blaimed the CIA for anything and everything..id call you anti-American.

if you blaimed Islam for anything and everything..id call you anti-Muslim.

Calling someone a racist, Anti-American, for blaming the CIA for everything is silly.

And equally blaming Islam for everything wouldn't mean you hated Muslims.

But I can see the way your mindset works.



sue me. i call it as i see it. what are ya...Alex Jones' protector?

I'm no one's protector. I have no allegiances. I just call it as I see it too.

[Thunder]

You're showing double standards. Alex Jones is suspecting Mossad might be to blame without evidence. You are suspecting Alex jone's is anti-semitic without evidence.

Calling someone a racist, Anti-American, for blaming the CIA for everything is silly.

And equally blaming Islam for everything wouldn't mean you hated Muslims.

But I can see the way your mindset works.

I'm no one's protector. I have no allegiances. I just call it as I see it too.

blaiming Islam for everything is not anti-Muslim?? eh??

how old are you? me thinks you may have a lack of maturity.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

blaiming Islam for everything is not anti-Muslim?? eh??

how old are you? me thinks you may have a lack of maturity.

You really oughta quit the personal attacks as it's only showing your lack of argument. Accusing someone of lacking maturity for a perfectly sensible argument is something I would be embarrassed about.

Those people who know the difference between Islam and a Muslim will know what I'm talking about. You clearly don't.

But please carry on with the personal attacks as it only reinforces my arguments. :)

[Thunder]

actually, Im done with you. Gobble gobble. see ya.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

actually, Im done with you. Gobble gobble. see ya.

Expected really. As soon as arguments were lost and it descended into personal attacks running away was the inevitable next stage. Have a nice day now :)

[Thunder]

actually, the truth is, you bore me. i prefer to debate folks who have an ounce of logic..which you clearly lack.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

actually, the truth is, you bore me. i prefer to debate folks who have an ounce of logic..which you clearly lack.

No, my logic is fine. My logic is based upon identifying racism for what it is and not stamping feet shouting "racist pigs!" at those criticizing a group of people because of their actions rather than their race.

You have demonstrated your arguments don't hold water and have chosen the path of personal insults as a retaliatory response. And your claiming boredom which is not the truth at all is it? Anything but admit you have no argument eh?

And if my arguments lacked logic you could easily show that but you have been unable to. I have asked repeatedly in this thread that evidence of Alex Jones being racist and/or hating Jews, but so far none as been forthcoming.

You called Alex Jones a racist, a racist pig no less. So it should be easy to find lots of evidence to back that up.

In fact the premise of this whole thead is bogus. The very first sentence fails on both logic and sense ..

(Man, Alec Jones Is Not Even Hiding It..) His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.


I'm more than willing to accept Alex Jones as someone who hates Jews. But only as long as there is evidence of it.

In your own time folks.

[Thunder]

No, my logic is fine. My logic is based upon identifying racism for what it is and not stamping feet shouting "racist pigs!" at those criticizing a group of people because of their actions rather than their race.

You have demonstrated your arguments don't hold water and have chosen the path of personal insults as a retaliatory response. And your claiming boredom which is not the truth at all is it? Anything but admit you have no argument eh?

And if my arguments lacked logic you could easily show that but you have been unable to. I have asked repeatedly in this thread that evidence of Alex Jones being racist and/or hating Jews, but so far none as been forthcoming.

You called Alex Jones a racist, a racist pig no less. So it should be easy to find lots of evidence to back that up.

In fact the premise of this whole thead is bogus. The very first sentence fails on both logic and sense ..



I'm more than willing to accept Alex Jones as someone who hates Jews. But only as long as there is evidence of it.

In your own time folks.

yup...like I said: boring!!!!

there are much more worthwhile topics in the Politics and History section.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

yup...like I said: boring!!!!

there are much more worthwhile topics in the Politics and History section.

1] I thought you'd decided not to respond anymore. Of course it's a classic Forum BS to drama queen an exit from the discussion when one's arguments ave been exposed as having no value

2] I'm just asking for evidence of Alex Jones hating Jews. And you find that boring?

I thought you'd be rushing to expose real anti-semitism where ever possible.


The thread title proclaims "Man, Alec(sic) Jones Is Not Even Hiding It..(His anti-semitism that is...)

Well I thought I'd pop over to his site infowars and take a look. Well there was no evidence of racism on the front page, so I thought "OK, he might be hiding it a little bit!"

His site has sections. Media. Big Brother, Police state. Globalism. war on terror. Sept 11th. Even sections on Iran and Iraq.

No section on Israel or Zionist Movement though. And definitely no section on 'Jews'.

So I used the search engine and entered various terms... "Jew" "Jews" "Zionism" "Zionist"

But I couldn't find any evidence of Alex Jones hating or even disliking Jews.

Come on folks! I'm being really reasonable here. Racism is a serious allegation. Some of you, the thread starter for example, have obviously seen evidence of Alex Jones hating or disliking Jews.

So please post a link. I'm really not going to trawl through thousands of articles on a website looking for what might not even be there. Especially when you could make it all so simple by posting links.

[Thunder]

ok...i admit it. you are right. he loves jews. loves them to death. he goes to a passover seder every year and does the Hora for Yom Ha'Torah.

he only hates Zionists. those evil, dirty, pesky, cheap, world-controlling, arrogant, dual-citizen, Communist, fluoride spewing, Zionist Christ-rejectors.

you win.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

ok...i admit it. you are right. he loves jews. loves them to death. he goes to a passover seder every year and does the Hora for Yom Ha'Torah.

he only hates Zionists. those evil, dirty, pesky, cheap, world-controlling, arrogant, dual-citizen, Communist, fluoride spewing, Zionist Christ-rejectors.



<Sigh> Ignoring the prepubescent sarcasm

I didn't think any evidence would be produced. That's because there isn't any is there?

So failing any evidence of Alex Jones hating or even disliking Jews or in fact having any prejudiced whatsoever for someone being Jewish we can safely assume that Alex Jones is NOT a racist.


you win.

It's not a contest. I just wanted to get to the bottom line. The thread accuses Alex Jones of racism against Jews

There's no evidence it. The thread is bogus. Fake. BS

[Thunder]

:jaw-dropp

[Tin Foil Timothy]

:jaw-dropp

Provide some links then

[Thunder]

:boggled:

[Tin Foil Timothy]

YOU FAILED. The thread failed. Sad.

[Thunder]

YOU FAILED. The thread failed. Sad.

today i got a new toaster oven and ordered new tires at Sears. $65 per tire..nice huh?

[gtc]

No, my logic is fine. My logic is based upon identifying racism for what it is and not stamping feet shouting "racist pigs!" at those criticizing a group of people because of their actions rather than their race.

This is simply not true. Evidence has been presented that Alex Jones has been questioning officials' loyalty to America on the basis of their race. By wrongly claiming that all the Jews are actually dual citizens of Israel and hence have divided loyalty. They are not being criticised for any actions that they have done because they have done no actions.

That is racist.

It has also been pointed out to you that he is spreading the anti-semitic myth that there is an evil conspiracy of Jews bent on world domination by conducting terrorist actions against friendly nations while pretending to be Islamic and using near supernatural powers.

Again, that is racist.

Mossad is not being criticised for any action that it has done, because it has done no action. Israel is not criticised for its actions because the only Israeli involvement was as victims.

The only way you can argue that it is actions being criticised is if you actually believe that all Jews have dual citizenship and divided loyalties and have acted on those divided loyalties and if you believe that there is an evil organisation of Jews hell-bent on world domination through launching terrorist attacks disguised as Muslims.

And if believing those thing when they just aren't true is racist. Even if the racism is unintentional and just a product of a mental illness that happens to create delusions about Jews.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

This is simply not true. Evidence has been presented that Alex Jones has been questioning officials' loyalty to America on the basis of their race. By wrongly claiming that all the Jews are actually dual citizens of Israel and hence have divided loyalty. They are not being criticised for any actions that they have done because they have done no actions.

That is racist.

link?

A racist is someone who hates/dislikes/criticizes a race of people. Claiming all Jewish American's in government having dual citizenship is pertty stupid without evidence, but it's not racist



Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't



It has also been pointed out to you that he is spreading the anti-semitic myth that there is an evil conspiracy of Jews bent on world domination by conducting terrorist actions against friendly nations while pretending to be Islamic and using near supernatural powers.

Again, that is racist.

No that's not racist. If someone believes a crackpot theory about a group trying to take over the world and are criticizing it, then the criticism is not based upon the race of the people in the group but upon the alleged agenda of the group.

Of course people who are anti-semites are going to attach themselves to these kind of theories, but that doesn't make the theory in itself anti-semitic.




Mossad is not being criticised for any action that it has done, because it has done no action. Israel is not criticised for its actions because the only Israeli involvement was as victims.

No action and involvement in what?


The only way you can argue that it is actions being criticised is if you actually believe that all Jews have dual citizenship and divided loyalties and have acted on those divided loyalties and if you believe that there is an evil organisation of Jews hell-bent on world domination through launching terrorist attacks disguised as Muslims.

Well isn't that what Alex jones believes?



So once again, unless their is evidence of Alex Jones disliking/hating Jews then he isn't a racist.


Big Thread. Big Claims. but BS

[Brainster]

Here's a clip from Alex Jones (http://theinfounderground.com/archives/TiU%20Radio%2024th%20Nov%2008%20-%20Finally%20Alex%20Jones%20Finally.mp3) (MP3 File) that was apparently used in an Irish radio show:

Starting about 5:30 into the clip:

I mean, it was one thing with the last administration, and I was hoping it was a fluke and was gonna stop, but I mean, come on folks! Every key person in the Bush Administration, and now this new administration, just so happen to be the sons and daughters of the founders of Israel and Mossad chiefs and they're openly not even really US citizens, and they're openly are at the head of the table in anti-gun operations in the US?

Dick Cheney was a son of a founder of Israel? Who knew?

And for those of you who want to trot out the old "anti-semitic means anti-Arab", here's a little bit of Alex from last year:

TrWQR9lCu50

[gtc]

link?

Its been discussed in this thread. You've already participated in that discussion.

A racist is someone who hates/dislikes/criticizes a race of people. Claiming all Jewish American's in government having dual citizenship is pertty stupid without evidence, but it's not racist.

How is it not criticising a race of people to claim that they are all Israeli dual citizens with divided loyalties?

Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't.

I have no trouble labelling that a racist sentiment. You are assuming that all Jews think alike and all have divided loyalties.


No that's not racist. If someone believes a crackpot theory about a group trying to take over the world and are criticizing it, then the criticism is not based upon the race of the people in the group but upon the alleged agenda of the group.

We've been over this on the other thread. I have pointed out to you why believing, without evidence, that a group of people all of one race is secretly trying to dominate the world is an anti-semitic belief.

If time and time again someone attacks Jews for no reason, you have to ask why they always go after the Jews.

So once again, unless their is evidence of Alex Jones disliking/hating Jews then he isn't a racist.

The fact that Alex Jones always blames (without any evidence) Jews for everything isn't enough to convince you. The fact that he promotes anti-semitic myths isn't enough to convince you. What evidence would convince you?

[gtc]

And for those of you who want to trot out the old "anti-semitic means anti-Arab", here's a little bit of Alex from last year:


That didn't make any sense whatsoever. His fans have to be nutty to buy this stuff, don't they?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

How is it not criticising a race of people to claim that they are all Israeli dual citizens with divided loyalties?

He's not criticizing a race of people. He's criticising those in the US Adminstration who he thinks are more loyal to Israel than the US



We've been over this on the other thread. I have pointed out to you why believing, without evidence, that a group of people all of one race is secretly trying to dominate the world is an anti-semitic belief.

Not all Zionists are Jews. Most are. And even if this group allegedly trying to dominate the world are all Jews it still doesn't make it racist.

No one said criticizing the Nazi's plan to dominate the world was racist. The plan itself was racist of course, but not the criticism.

And it doesn't matter whether there's evidence or not. The question is about someone's viewpoint. Alex Jone's claiming that a group of Jewish people are trying to dominate the world does NOT Mean he hates Jews.

And he doesn't even claim ALL Jews are trying to dominate the world. All the Jews I know aren't trying to take over the world. They are just getting on with their lives like the rest of us.



If time and time again someone attacks Jews for no reason, you have to ask why they always go after the Jews.

Alex Jones is criticizing people for a reason. What he's NOT doing is criticizing a race of people


The fact that Alex Jones always blames (without any evidence) Jews for everything isn't enough to convince you.
The fact that he promotes anti-semitic myths isn't enough to convince you. What evidence would convince you?

What anti-semitic myths? I've asked for evidence that Alex Jones is promoting a hatred or criticism of people for being Jewish. NONE has been forthcoming.

Until that happens, Alex Jones might be an idiot, he might be deluded. He might be a lot of things. but he's not racist.

Making this a racist issue is wrong. Let's keep the racist labels for racists. There's too many victims of racism in the world still. Let's not water down focus upon them because of wrongly attaching racism to political criticism.

Even the ADL, as far as I can see, hasn't made a deal about Alex Jones. And they are normally the first to attach racism to political criticism. :roll:

[Brainster]

That didn't make any sense whatsoever. His fans have to be nutty to buy this stuff, don't they?

Dingdingdingdingding!

[1337m4n]

A bit longer than a week, but whatever. I trust you have learned a lesson about what it means to "stifle debate"?


He's not criticizing a race of people. He's criticising those in the US Adminstration who he thinks are more loyal to Israel than the US

Ask yourself WHY he thinks they are more loyal to Israel than the US. His only basis for this judgement is the fact that they are Jews. THAT is racist.


What anti-semitic myths? I've asked for evidence that Alex Jones is promoting a hatred or criticism of people for being Jewish. NONE has been forthcoming.

Until that happens, Alex Jones might be an idiot, he might be deluded. He might be a lot of things. but he's not racist.

Making this a racist issue is wrong. Let's keep the racist labels for racists. There's too many victims of racism in the world still.

You didn't answer the most important question in that post: What evidence would convince you? Why are you hiding from that question, hmmm?

You see, part of rational thinking involves accepting the possibility that you are wrong. In order to do that, you must first establish what it would take to convince you that you are wrong.

I'll even make it easier for you. Here's your homework: Write a hypothetical quote that, if Alex Jones were to utter it, you would admit that he is most likely a racist. And don't give me a cheesy answer like "I hate Jews". Most racists will not come right out and say "I hate Race X"; they're generally somewhat subtle about it.

Let's not water down focus upon them because of wrongly attaching racism to political criticism.

Okay. What part of the phrase "Jewish arrogance" makes it "political criticism"? Why is uttering that phrase absolutely necessary in order to produce "political criticism"? When Alex Jones says "Jewish arrogance", what "politics" is he "criticising"?


Even the ADL, as far as I can see, hasn't made a deal about Alex Jones. And they are normally the first to attach racism to political criticism. :roll:

I'm very curious as to why you mention the ADL in almost every single post you make. Nobody else is talking about the ADL. None of these threads are about the ADL. The subforum has nothing to do with the ADL. JREF has nothing to do with the ADL. Why the obsession? Why do you feel the need to bring them up in almost every post?

I mean, it's just bizarre. It'd be like if I were a regular in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology subforum, and in every other post I mentioned how much I hated Shakespeare. Do you have some kind of grudge? Did you have a bad childhood experience, eh? Maybe some years ago the ADL accused your daddy of being a racist and now you're out for revenge by defending all the brave "political criticisms" of the world's Jew-haters, eh? Is that what happened?

I'd bet that I hate Microsoft at least twice as much as you hate the ADL but you don't see me railing on Microsoft in every single thread I participate in.

[1337m4n]

At least I know what racism is.

Wrong. I know what racism is.

Do enlighten us, O Great Defender of "Political Criticism".

Homework #2: What is racism?

[Thunder]

singling out a specific ethnic group or nationality for critisism, hatred, conspiracy theories, especially with no evidence, is an example of racism.

i am no fan of the Mossad. i believe the west bank regime is an apartheid system. but the neverending accusations against the Mossad, whenever something goes boom, is nonetheless an example of anti-Jewish raicism, in my humble opinion.

if someone constantly attacked the ISI, with no evidence, again and again, I would suggest an anti-Pakistani bias.

if someone attacked Scotland Yard, again and again, with no evidence and only imaginative speculation, I would suggest an anti-British bias.

this isn't rocket science here folks. some seem to want to make it seem like it is.

[1337m4n]

Anyway what's wrong with a Jewish person having loyalty to Israel. I'd find it pretty odd if they weren't.

Huh. I take it back: Alex Jones isn't a racist; you are.

[1337m4n]

if someone constantly attacked the ISI, with no evidence, again and again, I would suggest an anti-Pakistani bias.

if someone attacked Scotland Yard, again and again, with no evidence and only imaginative speculation, I would suggest an anti-British bias.

Folks like TFT seem to think that unless somebody up and says "I hate Race X", they're not a racist. But that's not the case. Racism generally manifests itself in far more subtle ways. There's no denying that Alex Jones is automatically suspicious of Jewish people. It's made clear the way he includes "Jew" in sentences where it doesn't even need to be.

I posed this question to Tin Foil Timothy in another thread, and he was too cowardly to answer it. Let's see if he'll answer it now:

Imagine if you saw a news report that looked like this:

A bank was robbed by a black man today. The robber, who was black, broke in at 9:30 this morning. After breaking in, the black robber pulled out a gun and waved it in the air with his black arm. The robber, who was black, then ordered everyone to get to the ground. The black robber took the people as hostages. He then pointed a black finger at the banker and ordered him to open the vault. As he did this, he was black. He ran into the vault, and stole all the money, and was black. He ran away, and as he was running away witnesses could see he was black. Witnesses described the robber as black. He, the robber, was black. Not much is known about the robber, other than the fact that he was black. If you have any information about the robber, who is black, please contact the authorities and tell them everything you know about this black robber. The robber is considered armed, dangerous, and black.

Would you call that "just criticizing his behavior"?

[Thunder]

lol. i think the robber was guilty of "LWI" aka "Living While Black".

[Chaos]

Huh. I take it back: Alex Jones isn't a racist; you are.

Indeed.

Tin Foil Timothy, I´d like you to answer a question: how odd do you think it is that I, as a Catholic, feel no loyalty whatsoever towards the Vatican?

[CHF]

Until that happens, Alex Jones might be an idiot, he might be deluded. He might be a lot of things. but he's not racist.

Not even if he compares Mexicans to Nazis?

3Hb71BAWues

As for being anti-Jewish, how can any conspiracy kook not be anti-Jewish?

Jews are a small, well-educated and highly successful group that is over-represented in fields like banking, business and media. Anyone who believes in the "illuminati elite" running the world is hard-pressed to ignore them.

[dudalb]

Wow, after that Brainster clip, Jones seems to fear anybody who is not a White, Anglo Saxon American.

[moon1969]

Because the Jews control Hollywood? Well so Steven Spielberg and the victims of the holocaust are speacial jews but my grandfather who was a karelian is a gentile goy? :D

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Huh. I take it back: Alex Jones isn't a racist; you are.

I'm not a racist at all. I think being prejudiced against someone for their race is not only offensive it's illogical.

You have no evidence of me being a racist anyway and as such it would be a pretty childish retaliatory 'tit for tat' accusation.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Folks like TFT seem to think that unless somebody up and says "I hate Race X", they're not a racist. But that's not the case. Racism generally manifests itself in far more subtle ways. There's no denying that Alex Jones is automatically suspicious of Jewish people. It's made clear the way he includes "Jew" in sentences where it doesn't even need to be.

I posed this question to Tin Foil Timothy in another thread, and he was too cowardly to answer it. Let's see if he'll answer it now:

Why should I be cowardly?


Imagine if you saw a news report that looked like this:

A bank was robbed by a black man today. The robber, who was black, broke in at 9:30 this morning. After breaking in, the black robber pulled out a gun and waved it in the air with his black arm. The robber, who was black, then ordered everyone to get to the ground. The black robber took the people as hostages. He then pointed a black finger at the banker and ordered him to open the vault. As he did this, he was black. He ran into the vault, and stole all the money, and was black. He ran away, and as he was running away witnesses could see he was black. Witnesses described the robber as black. He, the robber, was black. Not much is known about the robber, other than the fact that he was black. If you have any information about the robber, who is black, please contact the authorities and tell them everything you know about this black robber. The robber is considered armed, dangerous, and black.

Would you call that "just criticizing his behavior"?

Show me a report by Alex Jones that mentions that the word Jew as often as your fictitious report mentions the world black, and I'll accept it as a valid analogy. Otherwise it's just a silly exaggeration that has no value in a debate.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You didn't answer the most important question in that post: What evidence would convince you? Why are you hiding from that question, hmmm?

I thought I had answered it. Apologies if I didn't. No need to act like a Nazi interrogator "Vy are you hiding from ze quvestion?!" It's the tactic of a entry level forum cyber warrior. :)

Anyway the answer is evidence that shows Alex Jones hating/disliking or criticizing Jewish people for being Jewish. It's quite simple. I have mentioned this before but i think you're one of those cyber warriors that has a pre-conceived model of attack and only needs to read a few keywords of an opponents post before launching a salvo. Thankfully such warriors are easy to parry.



You see, part of rational thinking involves accepting the possibility that you are wrong. In order to do that, you must first establish what it would take to convince you that you are wrong.

Don't be patronizing dude.



I'll even make it easier for you. Here's your homework: Write a hypothetical quote that, if Alex Jones were to utter it, you would admit that he is most likely a racist. And don't give me a cheesy answer like "I hate Jews".



Don't be patronizing dude.


Most racists will not come right out and say "I hate Race X"; they're generally somewhat subtle about it.

And you know this do you? Of course you don't. It's just an excuse to label anything that might be racist as racist even when there's no evidence of it.



I'm very curious as to why you mention the ADL in almost every single post you make. Nobody else is talking about the ADL. None of these threads are about the ADL. The subforum has nothing to do with the ADL. JREF has nothing to do with the ADL. Why the obsession? Why do you feel the need to bring them up in almost every post?

I mean, it's just bizarre. It'd be like if I were a regular in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology subforum, and in every other post I mentioned how much I hated Shakespeare. Do you have some kind of grudge? Did you have a bad childhood experience, eh? Maybe some years ago the ADL accused your daddy of being a racist and now you're out for revenge by defending all the brave "political criticisms" of the world's Jew-haters, eh? Is that what happened?

I'd bet that I hate Microsoft at least twice as much as you hate the ADL but you don't see me railing on Microsoft in every single thread I participate in.

Jeez what a rant :roll:

Of course I don't mention the ADL in every single post I make. You're just being ridiculous. I'd normally ignore a breathless nagging rant especially when the answer to why I brought them up is explained as I mention them. but perhaps you didn't read the posts and only say the keyword ADL?

So to save you searching I'll explain. The ADL are a big factor as being responsible for the instilling of a culture of labeling people who politically criticize th Zionist movement as anti-semites.

Alex Jones maybe obsessed with criticizing Zionism. He may even think a group of people who are Jewish have some overwhelming control in various places, but that doesn't mean he hates Jews.

So you people will have to do better than that. Racism is a serious charge and it's not only offensive, it's immature to throw around such accusations glibly.

That's why I ask for evidence of Alex Jones' racism. None has been forthcoming so far. And throwing personal attacks at me because you're angry the thread has been exposed as a fraud isn't helping either. Calling me a racist was particularly childish.

[gtc]

Anyway the answer is evidence that shows Alex Jones hating/disliking or criticizing Jewish people for being Jewish.

Suggesting that Jews have divided loyalties simply for being jews is criticising people for being Jewish. You've just proved that both you and Alex Jones are racist.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Suggesting that Jews have divided loyalties simply for being jews is criticising people for being Jewish. You've just proved that both you and Alex Jones are racist.

Complete hogwash. If I was racist I would tell you. There's no reason for me to hide my views on an anonymous forum. I can assure you I'm not racist at all and thus can't have proved such.

What's wrong with divided loyalties anyway? If an American settled in, say, France why shouldn't they still have loyalty to America.

Why not go and find some evidence of Alex Jones being racist and link us to it and at least make the thread credible instead out throwing out personal insults?

How many pages long is this thread now? I asked for a link at infowars which shows evidence of Alex Jones being racist and NOBODY has been able to come up with even one.

Because of that the whole thread and all arguments claiming Alex Jones is racist have zero credibility.

Diverting and derailing the thread by attacking me is only making the credibility of this thread plunge even further.

Simple. Throw up some links, even one link that shows Alex Jones hates Jews/dislikes Jews for being Jews.

But you can't can you?

[MarkCorrigan]

What's wrong with divided loyalties anyway? If an American settled in, say, France why shouldn't they still have loyalty to America.


Not even close to the same thing at all.

It would be better to ask if an American with French ancestors would be loyal to France as well as the US.

Even that isn't the same thing, but hey.

I wonder, would you like it if I asked my Jewish (and American) girlfriend if she is loyal to Israel in any way shape or form?

[MarkCorrigan]

Just want to say, I asked her and she said that:

1. She has no loyalty to Israel.

2. Accusing anyone of having split loyalty based solely on the fact they are jewish is indeed anti-semetic.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Complete hogwash. If I was racist I would tell you. There's no reason for me to hide my views on an anonymous forum. I can assure you I'm not racist at all and thus can't have proved such.

What's wrong with divided loyalties anyway? If an American settled in, say, France why shouldn't they still have loyalty to America.

Trememdously ignorant response, which appears to demonstrate that TFT isn't even clued up enough understand the concept of racism, no wonder he can't identify it.

While he's previously been trying to convince us that not all Jews are Zionists, he now throws that out of the window and declares if they are Jewish, they probably are! Imagine the scenario if I was to suggest that all Muslim members of the government had split loyalties between America and an Islamic homeland, or that all black members of the government where dual citizens, equally loyal to America and Africa, I would be called a racist.

If you spend all day scouring the websites of vile extremists in a desperate attempt to find anything to support your fantasy that the world is corrupt and controlled by a tiny, sinister elite, then its no wonder you can't recognise racism when it hits you in the face.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I see still no links have been provided of evidence of Alex Jones hating or disliking people for simply being Jewish.

Let's give it time though. The thread was so sure in it's accusations, so the evidence must exist.

[Dubbi]

Because the Jews control Hollywood? Well so Steven Spielberg and the victims of the holocaust are speacial jews but my grandfather who was a karelian is a gentile goy? :D

Schindler's List was a movie to honor a goy. And "gentile goy" is redundant.