Blueprints of Auschwitz found

[Thunder]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035393.html

Im sure, they must have been "planted" by Zionists.

[a_unique_person]

Original plans for the construction of the Nazi extermination camp of Auschwitz, including a gas chamber and crematorium, have been found in a Berlin apartment, a German newspaper reported Saturday.

The daily Bild published copies of some of the 28 plans, which the head of Germany's federal archives, Hans-Dieter Krekamp, called "authentic proof of the systematically planned genocide of the Jews of Europe."


I hope this isn't another piece of newspaper incompetence like "The Hitler Diaries". I have no doubt the holocaust happened, or that Aushwitz was a death camp, but papers that turn up in an apartment out of nowhere just sounds odd.

[volatile]

It seems to only have been reported in the Israeli Press, if Google News is up-to-date... I'm with aup - I'm sceptical.

[Doctor Evil]

Right, the Israeli papers are likely to invent stories which are based on foreign sources.
[/sarcasm]

More seriously, use some skepticism. Such a story is not likely to have originated in Israel. Here is a report from the telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/3411647/Auschwitz-plans-found-in-Berlin-flat.html).

It is of course possible that the documents are fake, as AUP have remarked.

[Doctor Evil]

Hmm, it seems likely that the blueprints are actually not (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910081954&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) that new:
"If they are original drawings from which blueprints were made, this would be an interesting story," van Pelt, a professor at the University of Waterloo (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29), Ontario, told JTA in a telephone interview. But, he said, there were "tons of such drawings in 300 boxes at Auschwitz ... copies of the originals." Some were found in the former Soviet Union in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and published by van Pelt and others.

[a_unique_person]

That makes sense.

[Foolmewunz]

If later-breaking links are correct, then Robert Jan van Pelt thinks the story is crap.

ETA: I don't know how valid a source Haaretz is. (I'm just not familiar with them.) I cannot find any mainstream media relating the van Pelt article, but a whole lot of revisionist sites, so my comment could be misinformed.

[volatile]

Right, the Israeli papers are likely to invent stories which are based on foreign sources.
[/sarcasm]


Sorry... Reading it again, I just realised how that post of mine may have come across...

What I meant to say was that this story had not been widely reported, nor picked up by any major newspapers, which struck me as odd. I did not mean to imply that the Israelis had invented the story, or that the Israeli press had any ulterior motive for reporting it.

[Doctor Evil]

Sorry... Reading it again, I just realised how that post of mine may have come across...

What I meant to say was that this story had not been widely reported, nor picked up by any major newspapers, which struck me as odd. I did not mean to imply that the Israelis had invented the story, or that the Israeli press had any ulterior motive for reporting it.

Fair enough :)

I was worried that I was too abrasive in my response. I was having a rather annoying headache yesterday.

[bachfiend]

I don't know about this story. Das Bild isn't a very reliable newspaper. I once bought a copy of it in Germany, and read it from front to back in 15 minutes, and understood every word, so it isn't aimed at a particularly discriminating audience. I have no doubt that there were plans for Auschwitz, but I seriously doubt that they were allowed to survive the war intact.

[Doctor Evil]

Please look at the Jerusalem Post article I cited above. It seems that the Soviets had captured plenty of copies of the blueprint. These in turn where found and published by historians such as van Pelt. So in some sense this is not big news, but can be interesting if these are the originals.

[Trojan]

These blue prints were previously published in Pressac book. Nothing new, and they are for delousing chambers, not homicidal gas chambers.

[Foolmewunz]

If the follow up article in Haaretz is accurate, then van Pelt (who's probably the living expert on Auschwitz construction) says they're not even plans for Auschwitz but some other camp - a labor camp.

The dates one some drawings are prior to the Final Solution being agreed on by many months, for one thing. For another, he doubts that Himmler would've initialed anything so mundane as a drawing or plan as the original article claims.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035958.html

[Dave Rogers]

This story was covered by BBC Radio 4 yesterday morning, with rather a different slant than the "proof of the Holocaust" approach. What was being claimed was that the blueprints included plans for a gas chamber that predated the Wannsee Conference by a few months, indicating that the Final Solution was being planned earlier than is presently thought. Therefore the predating of Wannsee would be seen, not as an anomaly, but as the most interesting attribute of the plans. However, van Pelt (I think it was him) was interviewed, and argued against this on the grounds that only drawings of a mortuary were actually dated, with the drawings of the gas chamber being an undated later addition. The only question that rational people are studying, therefore, concerning this evidence, is on the timing, rather than the existence, of the Holocaust.

Dave

[a_unique_person]

If the follow up article in Haaretz is accurate, then van Pelt (who's probably the living expert on Auschwitz construction) says they're not even plans for Auschwitz but some other camp - a labor camp.

The dates one some drawings are prior to the Final Solution being agreed on by many months, for one thing. For another, he doubts that Himmler would've initialed anything so mundane as a drawing or plan as the original article claims.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035958.html


Van Pelt suggested the plans might be fakes, motivated by the lucrative market in Nazi memorabilia and documents.
:boggled: People would want to buy these things?

I can't understand the obsession by some people of a state that failed so completely and so quickly, and, apart from the destruction it brought upon others, the utter disaster it was to it's own people.

The reason for Himmler not signing such documents was not given. I assumed it was because such a high ranking officer would not want to be linked to plans for a death camp. IIRC, these were not officially ever acknowledged as what they were, even in Nazi Germany.

[geni]

:boggled: People would want to buy these things?

Sure. Completely legal in say the UK and US.


I can't understand the obsession by some people of a state that failed so completely and so quickly, and, apart from the destruction it brought upon others, the utter disaster it was to it's own people.


Live fast die young. Nazis are fascinating. They lasted for such a short time yet drove the most significant event of the 20th century. Lifetimes of events packed into a few short years. On top of that they have something for everyone be it technology millitry tactics or totaly messed up politics. Nazi properganda was spectacular at the time (triumph of the will is one of the all time properganda greats) so echoes down the years are to be expected.

Finally the nazis are one of the few unambiguous bag guys. History doesn't offer many.

[MaGZ]

Does it show the Olympic size swimming pool?

[MaGZ]

Sure. Completely legal in say the UK and US.



Live fast die young. Nazis are fascinating. They lasted for such a short time yet drove the most significant event of the 20th century. Lifetimes of events packed into a few short years. On top of that they have something for everyone be it technology millitry tactics or totaly messed up politics. Nazi properganda was spectacular at the time (triumph of the will is one of the all time properganda greats) so echoes down the years are to be expected.

Finally the nazis are one of the few unambiguous bag guys. History doesn't offer many.

Some of the biggest dealers in WWII and Nazi memorabilia are Jews.

[SimonD]

Some of the biggest dealers in WWII and Nazi memorabilia are Jews.

What's your point?

[Foolmewunz]

Does it show the Olympic size swimming pool?

You mean the one that even Faurrison's (that noted "scholar") witnesses cannot attest to having ever been used by anyone other than trustees?



(Let me guess... disreputable link will be posted by MaGZ in response.)

[BPScooter]

Slightly off topic, I was in an old bookstore-type place in Munich 20 years ago and found for a very cheap price (something like 10 or 20 bucks US) a little collection of Deutsche Mark bills, dating from "before inflation" to "after inflation"--it tells the whole story! 10 M was a huge, elaborately engraved bill...next was smaller, 100 M bill, then down to a five million bill the size of a credit card, wow. I want to frame them with back to back glass so you can look at them right. This was the 1920s that I'm talking about.

[a_unique_person]

Sure. Completely legal in say the UK and US.



Live fast die young. Nazis are fascinating. They lasted for such a short time yet drove the most significant event of the 20th century. Lifetimes of events packed into a few short years. On top of that they have something for everyone be it technology millitry tactics or totaly messed up politics. Nazi properganda was spectacular at the time (triumph of the will is one of the all time properganda greats) so echoes down the years are to be expected.

Finally the nazis are one of the few unambiguous bag guys. History doesn't offer many.

Don't forget the uniforms. But the military tactics were just a re-invention of tactics from the Roman times, IIRC. Attack, fall back, encircle, destroy. Rommel used it to great effect, with fixed 88mm guns to destroy the British tanks. With fixed guns, the tactic could only work if the British kept falling for the same trick.

[geni]

Don't forget the uniforms. But the military tactics were just a re-invention of tactics from the Roman times, IIRC. Attack, fall back, encircle, destroy.

Not really. The deep penetration tactics were not posible premechanisation. The closest I'm aware of was some russian theory in the 30s.


Rommel used it to great effect, with fixed 88mm guns to destroy the British tanks. With fixed guns, the tactic could only work if the British kept falling for the same trick.

No it could only work if the british tanks sucked. Which they did.

[volatile]

Sure. Completely legal in say the UK and US.



Live fast die young. Nazis are fascinating. They lasted for such a short time yet drove the most significant event of the 20th century. Lifetimes of events packed into a few short years. On top of that they have something for everyone be it technology millitry tactics or totaly messed up politics.


Don't forget the uniforms. A lot of the fascination with Nazism is the sexy, evil, amazingly-tailored uniforms. Some people really get off on those things.

Actually, a good friend of mine is doing his PhD on the paraphernalia and visual culture of the British Nazi Party from the 1930s, and has had to contact quite a few private collectors of Nazi ephemera and spend time at the fairs and conventions they organise. Let's just say he reports that a large chunk of them aren't just interested in fascism as a historical curiosity.

[mrbaracuda]

You can view some of the blueprints on this page (http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2008/11/08/auschwitz-die-bauplaene/bild-zeigt-dokumente-des-grauens-die-jetzt-in-berlin-gefunden-wurden.html) on the left.

Captions: Der Plan
für das
Gelände = The plan for the area

Das
Kellergeschoß = The basement

Die Schleusen
und die Gaskammer = The locks (?) and the gas chamber

Oh and there is more at the bottom. You can cycle through and click the underlined link there to get bigger pictures.

[Oliver]

Does it show the Olympic size swimming pool?


MaGZ, the Holocaust happened unless you really want to claim that
all Germans who lived through those times and report about it are
secret Jews lying to the world or something along that stupid line.

Get over it.

[Popsicle]

[QUOTE=a_unique_person;4197405]:boggled: People would want to buy these things?

I think for some it's an investment, and for some it's a way to remember both the evil behind the act and those that were lost. Most Armenians I know have at least two or three books about the Armenian Holocaust. They're almost all related, fairly closely, to people who were killed, and for them it's remembrance.

[RobRoy]

It's a little creepy to look at the plans for a Nazi death camp and understand that someone deliberately, clinically, set about to develop a place that would efficiently assist in the extermination of millions of people.

Thanks for the report, and the kick to my memory. I don't think I could own something, even tangentially, linked to the Nazi party. I can see how others would want to, but that much evil is not something I want in my possession.

[Toke]

I don´t understand the exitement.

You don´t construct a camp without plans/blueprints.
Or run it without records, like pay, leave/r&r, production/extermination.
The machinery comes with a makers plate on and technical documentation.
If something breaks down I would want a electric diagram of it.

Just like you don´t tatoo numbers on people without correspondant recordkeeping.
Some of that documentation must have survived.

[a_unique_person]

[quote=a_unique_person;4197405]:boggled: People would want to buy these things?

I think for some it's an investment, and for some it's a way to remember both the evil behind the act and those that were lost. Most Armenians I know have at least two or three books about the Armenian Holocaust. They're almost all related, fairly closely, to people who were killed, and for them it's remembrance.

I don't doubt that. I thought the implication was that Nazi admirers might have been the target for the documents in question.

[dudalb]

Another case of Some Journalist finding historical information that has been around for a long time, and proclaiming it a "Major new find!". Happens all the time.
A number of Historians are pretty much guilty of the same thing by proclaiming their latest book 'New and Groundbreaking" and " It will change the way that (insert topic of book) is viewed" when it contains really nothing new to historians. It's just hype.

[Oliver]

Some of that documentation must have survived.


Actually thousands of those documents survived:
http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/resource/DOCUMENT/document.htm

[Toke]

Actually thousands of those documents survived:
Yes, so why the exitement.

[a_unique_person]

Yes, so why the exitement.

Slow news day?

[BenBurch]

Some of the biggest dealers in WWII and Nazi memorabilia are Jews.

Not true, but the biggest buyers of such things are American racist swine who use them the way a normal person uses Penthouse Letters.

[mrbaracuda]

Another case of Some Journalist finding historical information that has been around for a long time, and proclaiming it a "Major new find!". Happens all the time.
A number of Historians are pretty much guilty of the same thing by proclaiming their latest book 'New and Groundbreaking" and " It will change the way that (insert topic of book) is viewed" when it contains really nothing new to historians. It's just hype.

Yes, so why the exitement.


From what I could gather from the BILD article, it's not so much that it's new or even much excitement about it, it just serves as another nail in the coffin of the fantasies of people like MaGZ. :rolleyes::D

[DC]

Some of the biggest dealers in WWII and Nazi memorabilia are Jews.

darn, i am really not good in freedom of speach.
welcome to ignore magz
bye bye magz

[UnrepentantSinner]

Die Schleusen
und die Gaskammer = The locks (?) and the gas chamber

Is there a contemporary word for Airlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlock) (luftschleussel?) and does have an antecedant from the 1940s? If not, might Schleus(en) mean airlock?

[UnrepentantSinner]

ETA: I don't know how valid a source Haaretz is. (I'm just not familiar with them.) I cannot find any mainstream media relating the van Pelt article, but a whole lot of revisionist sites, so my comment could be misinformed.

It's one of the most respected Hebrew language Israeli newspapers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz
And they're not afraid to print articles that might raise hackles.
Grounds for disbelief (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=291264&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y)

[a_unique_person]

It's one of the most respected Hebrew language Israeli newspapers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz
And they're not afraid to print articles that might raise hackles.
Grounds for disbelief (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=291264&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y)

They seem to do a good job in general, AFAIK.

As for the link, "Bible Denier". ;)

[DC]

Is there a contemporary word for Airlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlock) (luftschleussel?) and does have an antecedant from the 1940s? If not, might Schleus(en) mean airlock?

sluices = Schleusen

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=wlqAU.&search=Schleusen

Like they are used in big Fallout shelter for example

[Rasmus]

Is there a contemporary word for Airlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlock) (luftschleussel?) and does have an antecedant from the 1940s? If not, might Schleus(en) mean airlock?

sluices = Schleusen

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=wlqAU.&search=Schleusen

Like they are used in big Fallout shelter for example

"Schleuse" just means lock in the sense of a lock for boats: You seperate two areas with no direct contact. So, it might be an airlock indeed.

I am not sure, though, why they would be needed in that layout? A single airtight door for the gas chamber would be enough. I've tried to find something on the web, but nowhere does it seem to detail the function of the "Schleuse".

[mrbaracuda]

Is there a contemporary word for Airlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlock) (luftschleussel?) and does have an antecedant from the 1940s? If not, might Schleus(en) mean airlock?

It's Luftschleuse, not "schleussel"! You even had it right the other time! Silly rat. :D
But yes, you are probably right, since the gaschamber is right next to it. :p
Either they didn't have the space to write "Luftschleuse" all over the place, or Schleuse was sufficient I suppose.

[Oliver]

It's Luftschleuse, not "schleussel"! You even had it right the other time! Silly rat. :D
But yes, you are probably right, since the gaschamber is right next to it. :p
Either they didn't have the space to write "Luftschleuse" all over the place, or Schleuse was sufficient I suppose.


I guess that "Schleuse" is a far more obvious word in German than the
English equivalent of the term.

[mrbaracuda]

I guess that "Schleuse" is a far more obvious word in German than the
English equivalent of the term.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. We Germans are just too damn efficient for our own good at times. :D

[Oliver]

Yes, that's what I was thinking. We Germans are just too damn efficient for our own good at times. :D


Since we're talking about "Schleusen für Gaskammern", I wonder
what's funny about "efficiency" here.

And you didn't reply to my PM. ;)

[bachfiend]

Yes, Schleuse does mean airlock, and airlocks are quite useful things, if you absolutely want to keep something inside a room, such as heat in a house in winter, dangerous viruses or bacteria in a laboratory, poisonous gases in delousing chambers or extermination chambers. The Wansee conference in 1942 only set down the plan for the industrial style extermination of Jews and other supposed undesirable populations. But the Nazis were engaged in mass massacres well before that, including the Sonderkommandos in Russia in 1941.

[mrbaracuda]

:jrefwelcome bachfiend