Dean's comments on pickups, confederate flag, spark controversy

[Tony]

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/11/01/build/nation/67-deancomments.inc ...full article


WASHINGTON - A comment by Howard Dean about Confederate flags and pickup trucks has embroiled the leading Democrats in Iowa's presidential caucuses in a name-calling donnybrook.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said Saturday that he was intending to encourage the return of Southern voters who have abandoned the Democrats for decades but are disaffected with the Republicans.


Two Democrat rivals competing against Dean in Iowa's leadoff Jan. 19 caucuses saw the comment differently.

Im curious to know what the Dean supporters thing of these comments.

"I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA," Kerry said in a statement.



On another note, this is an interesting if not frightening quote from Kerry.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Tony
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/11/01/build/nation/67-deancomments.inc ...full article

Im curious to know what the Dean supporters thing of these comments.

On another note, this is an interesting if not frightening quote from Kerry.

But Dean is a Yankee!

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/u/us-csanj.gif

My opinion was that Dean was the least offensive Democrat candidate. Now I'm not so sure.

Does this life-long Democrat have to vote for Bush? I'm vomiting at the possibility, but it may work out that way.

Why Oh why have the Democrats turned into a suicide cult? I'd vote for Hubert Humphrey, but he's dead.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

My opinion was that Dean was the least offensive Democrat candidate. Now I'm not so sure.

Does this life-long Democrat have to vote for Bush? I'm vomiting at the possibility, but it may work out that way.

Why Oh why have the Democrats turned into a suicide cult? I'd vote for Hubert Humphrey, but he's dead.

Speaking as a conservative who has not registered with either party, I am hoping (persoanlly) that the Dems nominate someone other than Dean. After listening to them, he is the one guy on the Dem platform that I just don't thinbk I could -ever- vote for.

If he gets the nod, it will be far harder for the Dems to do well in 2004. All personal opinion written after zero research, so it HAS to be right.

[gnome]

I read the article in Salon.com about this:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/11/01/dean/index.html

And it disturbed me as well, but the last paragraph gave me food for thought:

One instance came Feb. 22 at a meeting of the Democratic National Committee in Washington. Dean said the men with Confederate flag decals in their pickup trucks represented lucrative prospects for the party "because their kids don't have health insurance, either, and their kids need better schools, too."

To propose another way of looking at it:

There are a bunch of pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans who could be sold on better schools and insurance reform. Could it be a positive thing--that Dean is avoiding an all-too-common assumption that everyone that has the confederate logo on their pickup truck should be dismissed as racist?

He can be trying to appeal to them without supporting what their extremists support.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by gnome
I read the article in Salon.com about this:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/11/01/dean/index.html

And it disturbed me as well, but the last paragraph gave me food for thought:



To propose another way of looking at it:

There are a bunch of pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans who could be sold on better schools and insurance reform. Could it be a positive thing--that Dean is avoiding an all-too-common assumption that everyone that has the confederate logo on their pickup truck should be dismissed as racist?

He can be trying to appeal to them without supporting what their extremists support.

There are a bunch of working class folks who could be sold on lots and lots of goverment control as a cure for their problems. That's not good.

I don't think that the Confederate flag is ipso facto kiddo a sign of racism. But Howard Dean, rich kid from New York even if Vermont was the state he was governor of, should know better.

[corplinx]

I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.

[Tony]

Originally posted by corplinx
I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.

Im sure you have heard the term "symbolism over substance". PC mongers latch onto the rebel flag as a symbol of "hate" because it keeps them free from actually having to think.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony


Im sure you have heard the term "symbolism over substance". PC mongers latch onto the rebel flag as a symbol of "hate" because it keeps them free from actually having to think.

May I cross post this to the Phelps thread?

PS There are many blacks who view the c-flag as a racist symbol, but I would think that they would rather have a friendly face in the white house then worry abou gun racks in pickem up trucks.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David


May I cross post this to the Phelps thread?


Why?

PS There are many blacks who view the c-flag as a racist symbol, but I would think that they would rather have a friendly face in the white house then worry abou gun racks in pickem up trucks.

There are many whites who view the malcom x "X" symbol as a racist symbol. Ignorance is ignorance.

[Malachi151]

Well, as a Dean supporter who has lived all my life in the South, I think he has to be able to appeal to such a group. I think its a good decision. He needs to help break down bariers, not be exlusive. He's trying to keep this from being an "us vs them" issue and make it more inclusive. You can help people and change their views more with cooperation than opposition.

Dean reaching out to "proud Southerners" can do so much more good than Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton shouting at them.

Plus, unless you have lived in the South then you dont have any idea how many people DO have Confederate Flags on their pickup trucks, etc, and that many fo these peopel also hate Bush too.

I say good move on Dean's part.

[Cain]

The Confederate Flag has been John ("I hate your politics") Scalzi's bête noire for some time. A brief excerpt:

Every time I hear a white southerner talk about his "Southern Heritage," I want to take a torch and burn my way from Atlanta to the Atlantic Ocean. Like most folks who were not raised in the South, to my ears "Southern Heritage" isn't anything but genteel code for "Dumbass Bigot Culture." Let us make no mistake, there is a Southern Heritage -- a fine tradition of music and literature and food. However, your typical dumbass bigot waving his Confederate Battle Flag couldn't identify Bill Faulkner in a line up, much less claim to have read, say, Absalom, Absalom! His Southern Heritage seems largely confined to the battle jack and a yearning for a time when you could whip the darkies when they got out of line.

Confederate apologists like to maintain there's nothing about the Confederate battle flag that's inherently racist, but this is of course nothing but unmitigated crap run up a flagpole. Everything about the Confederacy is racist; strip down the camouflaged arguments about state's rights as they relate to the Antibellum South to their essentials, and what you've got is this: Black slaves. The South had them and wanted to keep them. Everything that is inherently "Southern," from its agrarian ethos to the social mores, has the institution of slavery as its common black thread. Make no mistake: Had slavery not existed in the South, there never would have been a Civil War. There would have been no Confederacy without it.

This is why us Yankees (or anyone whose skin shade is browner than 70s station wagon beige) are boggled that anyone would want to ally themselves, intellectually or culturally, with the cause of the Confederacy. In doing so, you ally yourself with a political entity whose whole reason for existing was to keep other men enslaved -- indeed, the only salient differences between the the Constitution of the United States and Constitution of the Confederacy related directly to slaves (my favorite bit is in Article IV, Section 2, in which the Dred Scott decision is enshrined as an article of Confederate doctrine).

http://www.scalzi.com/w010125.htm

The interesting thing about Kerry's comment is that the NRA was started by ex-Union soldiers, although I believe the idea of the National Rifle Assocation got its start in Britan.

I think it's obvious that Dean wants to appeal to Southern voters by appealing to their economic conditions rather than their cultural views. Dean's from a long line of blue bloods. He even attended a more prestigious and exclusive prep school than George W. Bush. Indeed, Bush's great Grandmother was a bridesmaid at Dean's great grandmother's wedding.

[Malachi151]

As much as they would like to, no one from teh North can intelligently comment on life in the South, or "Souther Heritage", or Southern values, or anying of that nature.

I myself am sick of the South and its stupid redneck ways, but the fact is, it's much more complex than Northerners think.

"Southern Heritage" = simple mindedness, not rascism in most people's minds.

The two may well be related, btut what Southerns identify the Rebel flag with is "simpler times", "right and wrong", "I don't givea crap what you think attitude", "government sucks", "Jesus is Lord", "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", etc. It's amazing how many Rebel Flags crossed with American flags you see down here, as if that makes any sense.

In the Southern mind the Southerners won the war, and in their mind "Southern values" = American values.

Now all of that is total idiocy IMO, but when you attack the rebel flag that is what you are really attacking, not rascism as far as a Southerner is concerned.

Keep in mind that you will see more rebel flags in Atlanta then just about anywhere and Atlanta has the highest black population in America.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Malachi151
In the SOuth mind, the Southers won the war, and in their mind "Southern values" = American values.


And you are supposed to the diamond in the rough intelligent southerner?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I only got as far as "Howard Dean said...", then I put my brain on ignore.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
I only got as far as "Howard Dean said...", then I put my brain on ignore.

Isnt that it's default mode? :p ;) :D

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Tony


Isnt that it's default mode? :p ;) :D

Hmmmm...come to think of it.....

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by corplinx
I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.

Is it really "innocuous"?

Here is a great excerpt from one of the chief writers of the CSA Constitution, Alexander Stephens. He is discussing the new Confederate government:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago."

Of course you can find racist statements from people in the North as well. However, to say your government is the first who's cornerstone rests on racial inequality, makes me have a bit of sympathy with the vast majority of blacks in America who find the symbol offensive...

[c0rbin]

Sounds like short hand for a candidate trying to claim that he is interested in reaching out to all kinds of Americans.

Since he is a yankee, and probably not raised in the country (though all parts of this great nation have rural environs), Confederate be-flagged pick-ups might be polar opposite to his station.

[American]

It mainly offends rich liberals more than it offends any single black person. (Some people have lives...)

[VicDaring]

Dean's statement = I need someone other than New England liberals to vote for me, or I'm toast.

Twisting it to somehow mean he sympathizes with slavery or racism or something is just plain weird.


Kerry's statement, "I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA," shows that to many Dems, those two groups remain mutually exclusive, which is incorrect. Dean has figured this simple truth, and it will help him in November if he wins the nomination.

As for this...
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition....etc. etc. etc.

Anyone else automatically add a southern accent in your head while you read that?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by corplinx
I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.

Well its not like Bo and Luke Duke hung out wh black folks. Did they even have blacks on the Dukes??

It was the racists that turned the flag into a hate symbol.

[hgc]

Originally posted by American
It mainly offends rich liberals more than it offends any single black person. (Some people have lives...) I'm sure you can show evidence for this. Or is it your fantasy?

[American]

Originally posted by hgc
I'm sure you can show evidence for this. Or is it your fantasy?


The New York Times.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Tmy]

Originally posted by American
It mainly offends rich liberals more than it offends any single black person. (Some people have lives...)

Puleez!!! All blacks, and minorities are offended by the damn flag. Sure you can trump out the Black Confederates, what % of the population do they represent.

I can find ex-vets who will burn the US flag in protest, that does not equal "all vets are OK with flag burning."

If you pull up to some watering hole and see the rebel flag prominately displayed, it sends a clear message.

The U of Missisippi (no stangers to racism) even dumped the flag as a logo cause it was hurting their image and recruiting.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


Puleez!!! All blacks, and minorities are offended by the damn flag.



I havent known any blacks or minorities who were offended by the flag.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony



I havent known any blacks or minorities who were offended by the flag.

Have you ever asked if they were offended??? All that flap over the GA. State flag, was that just liberal white poeple???

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


Have you ever asked if they were offended???

No, why should I really care? If they were offended they would say something.

All that flap over the GA. State flag, was that just liberal white poeple???

That was spearheaded by NAACP black supremicists.

[BJS]

Originally posted by Tmy


Well its not like Bo and Luke Duke hung out wh black folks. Did they even have blacks on the Dukes??

It was the racists that turned the flag into a hate symbol.

Wasn't the sherrif from the neighboring county a big touch black guy?

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tony
...

That was spearheaded by NAACP black supremicists. They don't count as black people?

[Tony]

Originally posted by hgc
They don't count as black people?

No, they are racist subhumans who are tarnishing the reputation of decent black folk.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by BJS


Wasn't the sherrif from the neighboring county a big touch black guy?

Yeah, the guy from Cickasaw county. Were the Dukes were afriad to go........hmmm makes you think what they were getting at. Of cousre the Dukes of Hazzard was a show that glorified a couple of unemployed ex-con scofflaws.


Tony,
Just because someone doesnt complain doesnt mean they are not offended.

The damn flag has been around over 100yrs, so many blacks dont bother to complain cause that hasnt really worked for over a century.

[Malachi151]

You guys have all missed the issuse here, though being of the Marxist bent I have picked up on it.

Dean is declaring class warfare.

Clss warfare operated under the ideology that we are all more united by economic class than any other thing.

This is whaty Dean is saying, he wants to unite the underprivaliged of all strpies against the wealthy elite establishment.

This has nothing to do with race, but 99% of Americans are too stupid to understand what Dean is really doing here so they are going to bicker and ruin his attempts to help them.

This si my first real clue that Dean actually is a Marxist at heart :D

Unfortuantely America does not feel united by class, becuase for the past 50 years the American establishemrnt has tried to destory class identity, but Dean appears ready to now bring the class struggle to the table. Good for Dean, Go Dean! :D

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tony


No, they are racist subhumans who are tarnishing the reputation of decent black folk. Tony's decent black folk = they keeps their mouths shut and don't stir up no trouble.

[VicDaring]

Originally posted by Malachi151

This is my first real clue that Dean actually is a Marxist at heart :D

Unfortuantely America does not feel united by class, becuase for the past 50 years the American establishemrnt has tried to destory class identity, but Dean appears ready to now bring the class struggle to the table. Good for Dean, Go Dean! :D

As a Dean supporter, let me just say..."not helping."

[hammegk]

IMO, it isn't south vs north or black vs white.

The problem is rural vs urban; see the GWB counties vs Gore counties for example. And the rift seems to be widening.

On the rural side, middle america (the haves), who think the individual is responsible for his own fate, and who would like the (pre-eminent) US to lead the world;

vs

the urban side, have-nots & have-it-alls who think society -- not the individual -- is the problem for an individual's ills, and who think the future lies in UN/One-World.

[Tony]

Originally posted by hgc
Tony's decent black folk = they keeps their mouths shut and don't stir up no trouble.

I wouldn't expect you to wrap your small mind around my complex opinion.

[gnome]

Originally posted by VicDaring


As a Dean supporter, let me just say..."not helping."

I agree... I think Dean can do without a Marxist endorsement, thank you very much...

And anyway, the shoe doesn't fit...

Speaking up for the less well-off does not equal Marxism. That's a straw man I'd expect to hear more from the opposition.

[American]

Howard Dean:

-Born in New York City
-Raised in East Hampton, New York
-Governor of the softest, left-most state in the continental US

... tells the Dixie men he wants to represent them.


Reminds me of when Rick Rubin, a quintessential Long Island Jew, told the Black Crowes to call themselves the "Kob Kounty Krows". (K.K.K. in the spirit of Southern Rock..)

The Robinson brothers were not amused.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by hammegk
IMO, it isn't south vs north or black vs white.

The problem is rural vs urban; see the GWB counties vs Gore counties for example. And the rift seems to be widening.

On the rural side, middle america (the haves), who think the individual is responsible for his own fate, and who would like the (pre-eminent) US to lead the world;

vs

the urban side, have-nots & have-it-alls who think society -- not the individual -- is the problem for an individual's ills, and who think the future lies in UN/One-World.

Sounds SPOT ON to me...

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by hgc
Tony's decent black folk = they keeps their mouths shut and don't stir up no trouble.


hgc, meet Walter Williams (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles.html)

[Tmy]

Originally posted by American
Howard Dean:

-Born in New York City
-Raised in East Hampton, New York
-Governor of the softest, left-most state in the continental US

... tells the Dixie men he wants to represent them.


Reminds me of when Rick Rubin, a quintessential Long Island Jew, told the Black Crowes to call themselves the "Kob Kounty Krows". (K.K.K. in the spirit of Southern Rock..)

The Robinson brothers were not amused.

I think Deans original speech contained the term "drunken nascar loving hillbilles," then he toned it down a bit.

[gnome]

Originally posted by hammegk
the urban side, have-nots & have-it-alls who think society -- not the individual -- is the problem for an individual's ills, and who think the future lies in UN/One-World.

I have a problem with this characterization. If one can forgive an argument from personal incredulity... I have never heard anyone argue that it's all society and not the individual. The argument that I like to make is that both society and individual choices contributes to one's position in life. It is clear that one needs to take responsibility for their own life and choices--but it is equally clear that the condition of society affects the individual's circumstances. It can hardly be called an abdication of personal responsibility to spend some effort looking for solutions that improve the individual through improving the society--i.e., better economy, better availability of education, and so forth.

There's room for efforts in both directions, don't imply that we must choose only one.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by gnome


I have a problem with this characterization.
Of course you do. What else can a moral relativist think/say/do if everything is just different shades of grey?

So what? Quite a few folks disagree with you, and if you hadn't noticed the disagreements are getting more & more pointed.


There's room for efforts in both directions, don't imply that we must choose only one.

Spend all the time & money you wish "fixing" the problems; just keep your nose out of my affairs, and my pocketbook.

Before you worry overmuch about inequalities in the US based on race/ creed/ gender/ sexual orientation/ blahblahblah perhaps you need to assist Africa, or at least pick some people who are truly in dire straits.


Just my 3cts; do with it what you will.

[tedly]

Malachi151 said:
I myself am sick of the South and its stupid redneck ways, but the fact is, it's much more complex than Northerners think.

and Gnome said:
To propose another way of looking at it:

There are a bunch of pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans who could be sold on better schools and insurance reform. Could it be a positive thing--that Dean is avoiding an all-too-common assumption that everyone that has the confederate logo on their pickup truck should be dismissed as racist?



Every complex situation has a simple solution that is stupid and wrong. (end gross simplification mode- or not)

Dean may be attempting to form alliances with people on the grounds that he can support - across the divide of things he can't. From up here American politics are often an impenetrable fog, so I really don't know. But I do assume it would be a mistake to write off the possibility of finding common ground with anybody because they carry a symbol that is nearly ubiquitous in their community. Exactly what does it say about me that I have a Nike swooshtika on my T-shirt?

In our dread Saskatchewan winter a small sparrow, starving, flew across the farmyard and collapsed outside the barn. A cow, unaware dropped a pie on top of it. The sparrow collapsed under this, insult on injury. But, as he prepared to die, he noticed that he was warm. Then he noticed that there were grains of oats in the pie. He began to eat and restored his strength. Saved, he drew himself together and began to sing.
The cat, noticing this bizarre cow-pie sorted through it, found the sparrow and killed and ate it.
Three morals. Not everyone who sh*ts on you is your enemy. Not everyone who gets you out of sh*t is your friend. And if you're warm, well fed and happy, keep your mouth shut.

[gnome]

Originally posted by hammegk
Of course you do. What else can a moral relativist think/say/do if everything is just different shades of grey?

This comes across almost as a non-sequitur, but I imagine it might make more sense if you clarified it...

You're saying that if everything is just different shades of gray, then a moral relativist's arguments are limited? I really don't see what you're getting at.

So what? Quite a few folks disagree with you, and if you hadn't noticed the disagreements are getting more & more pointed.

And therefore...?

Spend all the time & money you wish "fixing" the problems; just keep your nose out of my affairs, and my pocketbook.

And considering the implications of society affects your pocketbook how?

Is it possible to say "Yes, societal influences affect an individual's opportunities, but it's a problem we have to live with because it's wrong to take other people's money to fix it without unanimous consent?"

Or is the mere intellectual exercise of considering societal influences, an infringement on your property somehow?

Before you worry overmuch about inequalities in the US based on race/ creed/ gender/ sexual orientation/ blahblahblah perhaps you need to assist Africa, or at least pick some people who are truly in dire straits.

Again this singular approach, does one exclude the other?

[shecky]

Originally posted by gnome

There are a bunch of pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans who could be sold on better schools and insurance reform.

The pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans could easily be sold on better schools and insurance reform, even more. And they soemtimes are. But I suspect they'd rather the pork be brought home from the likes of homegrown good ole boys like Trent Lott, than snooty northerners like Dean.