The USA is not a perfect society, but it's the closest there's ever been.

[EGarrett]

Agree/disagree? Why or why not.

[Drudgewire]

Agree.

Proof? American football. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/patriot.gif

[drkitten]

Agree/disagree? Why or why not.

No, I think there are a number of societies extant today that are preferable in a number of ways. The official UN bean-counters seem to prefer the Nordic societies, while I admit to admiration for the Canucks. I'd ask the Australians what they prefer, but I can't seem to get them to come in from the beach to answer the questionaire.

[Carnivore]

Disagree. Proof: Rugby is not held in proper esteem, and your beer needs improvement. Move to New Zealand! :)

[Safe-Keeper]

To the OP: What about yourself? Do you agree or disagree?

Myself, I disagree. I'm not necessarily saying my country is better, but to say the US is the closest to perfection we've ever seen is a bit of an exaggeration in my eyes:). While there are lots of pluses and the US is a great country, things like high crime rates and a significant number of people living in poverty detract.

I think that as 'perfection' is a subjective thing, it'd be really hard to determine which country falls closest. You could look at it from some sort of morality standpoint, wealth, happiness, crime levels, adherence to religion, fitness... there are so many attributes you can judge a country based on.

[wolfgirl]

Having come from Canada, and being married to a man who lived part of his childhood in England, I know that there are plenty of great places to live on Earth. When people just mindlessly utter "this is the greatest country on Earth" without ever having been to any other countries, it really grates on me. (I'm not accusing the OP of doing that, I'm just saying.)

While the US is certainly a good place to live in many ways, I don't think anybody can argue that we have our problems. Looked at our child mortality rate in comparison to other countries' lately? How about our educational achievement? And most of the people I know in Canada and England wouldn't trade their medical system for ours for anything. A society that allows sick children to go without health care if their parents can't afford it is not "the closest there's ever been" to "a perfect society," at least not in my mind.

[PhantomWolf]

I'd have to say that anyone that agrees with the OP's title has never been outside the US before.

[not daSkeptic]

I would have to disagree as well. For one thing, perfection is subjective. Not everyone necessarily desires the same things in life. For another, to make such a statement implies one has experienced life in all countries (including those that are no more). I seriously doubt anyone has done this.

[Wowbagger]

I agree, but on very thin grounds. I've been to other countries, and some of them are almost just as nice!

[Ashles]

Agree.

Proof? American football. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/patriot.gif
Ironically that's one of the reasons I disagree.

Real men play it without the armour and call it Rugby.

At least no-one mentioned baseball...

[lionking]

A really pointless debate. The USA "society" (is there only one?) is just different to that of other peaceful, prosperous and pleasant countries.

[Cainkane1]

Agree.

Proof? American football. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/patriot.gif
No baseball or maybe basketball.

[Fiona]

I agree with those who suggest that the concept is too woolly,and this makes it hard to address the question. I would very much like to know who made the title statement and what they were thinking about at the time

Having said that, one reasonable way to come at any such comparison is to adopt a version of Rawls "Veil of Ignorance". What is the worst position you can be in in any given society? It seems to me that we are nearer the "good society" where the worst position is at least compatible with human dignity. I do not think the USA is all that great on that basis: but I could be wrong

[Lanzy]

Don't post questions for opinions unless you have one of your own!

[Nogbad]

Not been so cannot comment. I think logic would suggest that just about any modern democracy is as pleasant a place to live as there has been.

Modern medicine, clean water, flushing toilets, electricity, access to the law. These things are under-rated until they are gone.

[Safe-Keeper]

Having said that, one reasonable way to come at any such comparison is to adopt a version of Rawls "Veil of Ignorance". What is the worst position you can be in in any given society? It seems to me that we are nearer the "good society" where the worst position is at least compatible with human dignity. I do not think the USA is all that great on that basis: but I could be wrongExactly. Norway's a good place to be, say, a student or in the middle class, but I've heard almost solely negative things about our efforts to help drug addicts. The US is a great country to live in, until you "fall out of the system" and end up having to take several jobs at once to make a living.

[GreNME]

Why do so many of you hate America?

[Safe-Keeper]

It does not give cheezburgers

[Nogbad]

Why do so many of you hate America?

It is OK the election is over you can come out of the bunker.

[Toke]

Write Denmark, and I would agree.

USA need some improvement on corruption, distribution of wealth, healthcare, education, ect. (you did ask for my oppinion)

Why do so many of you hate America?
? I don´t, been there a few times and run into alot of nice people.
I have (mostly) outgrown jugding a country by its longshoremen and loading coordinators.

It´s just that the "shining village on a hilltop" talk raises some objections from other people.

[Mister Agenda]

I'm sure it's perfect as it gets for some of us. I think we're at least in the top 50%, all things considered. There's some attraction to having a bit of a fixer-upper.

[JimBenArm]

Better? Well, which American society are we talking about? There's a lot of different ones in this vast country. The society in Kansas City is different than that of Southern California or New England. Hawaii is very different from Alaska. Florida is different from Washington State, which is different from Washington, D.C.
In other words, there is no single "American society". Each region has its own unique values and cultures, which are as different as those for countries elsewhere.

But I digress. If we are indeed talking about Kansas City, Missouri, then we are indeed talking about the high point of human achievement. Except for sports, at which we suck.

[applecorped]

Having lived nowhere else, I'll agree.

[Lothian]

Why do so many of you hate America?PWaQmQyTF24

[JimBenArm]

PWaQmQyTF2
You hate us for broken YouTube links?

Well, no wonder!

[Lothian]

You hate us for broken YouTube links?

Well, no wonder!Too right, you are so pedantic, insisting on the right links, everything working properly, good service. You wouldn't last two minutes in Britain.

[Undesired Walrus]

Agree.

Proof? American football. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/patriot.gif

American football? Where those sissies protect themselves from blows with their body armour?

For real, blood-letting, teeth-cracking action it is an Ireland/Scotland Rugby game.

[EGarrett]

Exactly. Norway's a good place to be, say, a student or in the middle class, but I've heard almost solely negative things about our efforts to help drug addicts. The US is a great country to live in, until you "fall out of the system" and end up having to take several jobs at once to make a living.The USA is a potentially bad country because you might have to take several jobs?

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

If I had to live outside of Canada, it would be in the United States. It's similar to home, but with cooler guns.

[ConspiRaider]

A "perfect" society? What the hell?

When the trash truck comes for to empty the dumpster, the fumes from the aforementioned truck's exhaust seep into my apartment! I have to close the windows in the summer! No perfect societal paradigms would EVER allow that acuz trash truck fumies caue brane dammitch! Even the pett God start meowin' and drinkin' otu the toylet!!! An' the wivey putt bakon in toster and scrambble breds too!!!

[Ashles]

American football? Where those sissies protect themselves from blows with their body armour?

For real, blood-letting, teeth-cracking action it is an Ireland/Scotland Rugby game.
Andif you have an England/New Zealand game you might see some ball handling skill and running too. :)

[Safe-Keeper]

The USA is a potentially bad country because you might have to take several jobs?Are you saying otherwise? You've got families where mothers have to work their butts off on minimum wage to make money for bare necessities and little more. I prefer countries where the state does a better job at providing for you.

Again, the US is not a bad country. I've lived in Houston for three years. I loved it.

But the fact remains that there are nations out there that do better at providing for their poor and sick than does the USA.

And I think that's the problem with creating a 'perfect' society - no matter what you do, there will be people who suffer, someone who will be left out, persons and families that look upon their situation with contempt.

[Ashles]

Why do so many of you hate America?
Who does?

[cwalner]

I don't think that the modern USA is the most perfect country ever, but I think that the founding of the USA was the greatest single event towards perfecting a society in at least the last 500-1000 years, possibly ever (close competition with the agricultural revolution).

When I read the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, I continue to be awestruck by the ideas put down in those documents. These ideas (Rule of Law, Individual rights, Equity before the law, etc.) now found the basic ideals and foundation for every modern democracy. It is these ideals that make all of these countries far more perfect societies than what came before them and much of what still exists today in societies that do not embrace these ideals.

So yeah, my country may not now be the best at embracing her own ideals. She deserves credit for being the first to put them into writing, thus saying these are the ideals towards which we strive, and by doing so inspiring many other countries to do the same.

This is why, though I may strongly disagree with many practices of my current government, I still love my country, feel overwhelming gratitude to have had the fortune to be born here, and yes am proud to call myself an American.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I would say yes.

The perfect society would be one that had me as its leader. Although the US does not, it is closest to achieving this goal since it at least has me within its borders.

[Zep]

How can a society that invented Budweiser Lite NOT be a perfect society!

:)

[Mobyseven]

How can a society that invented Budweiser Lite NOT be a perfect society!

:)

If the society that invents Budweiser is the perfect society, then surely Belgium must be the abode of the gods?

[Zep]

If the society that invents Budweiser is the perfect society, then surely Belgium must be the abode of the gods?You mean...Belgium invented Coors Lite? :eye-poppi

[gumboot]

When I read the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, I continue to be awestruck by the ideas put down in those documents. These ideas (Rule of Law, Individual rights, Equity before the law, etc.) now found the basic ideals and foundation for every modern democracy. It is these ideals that make all of these countries far more perfect societies than what came before them and much of what still exists today in societies that do not embrace these ideals.



Um... many of those "modern democracies" already existed before the USA came about. A lot of human societies have valued those ideals for a very long time. The only special thing the USA did was write them down. The irony, of course, is that while many of the world's democracies continue to follow those ideals in principle without having written them down, while the USA, despite it's idealistic founding documents, lags quite tragically behind.

[Morrigan]

Many European countries offer a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation. These countries > the USA, by default.

[lionking]

If the society that invents Budweiser is the perfect society, then surely Belgium must be the abode of the gods?

True, funny and nominated.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Many European countries offer a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation. These countries > the USA, by default.

What would you say to those who would consider European's attitude toward labor (e.g. shorter work days and relatively large amounts of off time) to be laziness?

Before you throw something heavy at me, it's not MY position, OK? However, I do hear it from more than a few red-blooded 'Mericans who proclaim that Europe will not be able to compete with a country where the workers are willing to work 40+ hours a week!

[Achán hiNidráne]

My own opinion: There are a lot of things that I LOVE about America that are not present in other nations no matter how progressive. Are their policies that I think my nation should be doing? Yes. Is it so bad that I have to give up the aspects of America I enjoy and move to Europe, hardly.

America is not perfect and we could be a lot better, but I don't think I'd be all that happy anywhere else.

[PhantomWolf]

I was actually planning to post a number of stats comparing NZ, the UK, Australia, Canada, Japan, Ireland, France, and the US, unfortunately just as I was doing the last part I screwed up and lost the entire post. The results were interesting though. The US lags behind the others in lifestyle issues, being both unhappier and less financially statisfied that the other countries. Many of the other stats they were in the middle of the group, Life Expectancy, Infant Mortality, Total Crime. Out of the group you would be most likely Assulted or Murdered in the US, but the chances of remaining unemployed for a long period of time were substantially lower than all the other countries. In the end the stats show that the US is certainly one of the better countries and even leads the world in some good things, but overall there are better places to live.

[lionking]

My own opinion: There are a lot of things that I LOVE about America that are not present in other nations no matter how progressive. Are their policies that I think my nation should be doing? Yes. Is it so bad that I have to give up the aspects of America I enjoy and move to Europe, hardly.

America is not perfect and we could be a lot better, but I don't think I'd be all that happy anywhere else.

Just curious, but what are some of the things not present in other nations? This is a genuine question.

[EGarrett]

Are you saying otherwise?I would say that there's no such thing as a country where some people don't have to take several jobs to make ends meet...unless they're socialist and you'll starve no matter what you do.

And when it comes to drawbacks...I'd consider being gassed to death or eaten alive by your dictator to be a greater concern then moonlighting. Those types of things are frighteningly common in the history of most other countries we've seen...and as long as the charter is followed that can't happen in the US.

[lionking]

I would say that there's no such thing as a country where some people don't have to take several jobs to make ends meet...unless they're socialist and you'll starve no matter what you do.

And when it comes to drawbacks...I'd consider being gassed to death or eaten alive by your dictator to be a greater concern then moonlighting. Those types of things are frighteningly common in the history of most other countries we've seen...including most other first-world countries...

EGarrett, I think it's a bit rich you criticising other posters when you didn't answer the question you raised in your own thread.

[Toke]

Have you heard of tjekoslovakia?
Where bud were invented, the real one.

[autumn1971]

I happen to love the United States of America, but I suspect that it is mainly due to most of the people speaking a language I understand, and the USA's general level of basic human rights.
Were I to try for objectivity, I suspect that the USA would rank somewhere in the top twenty, down a bunch of ranks since the 1970's, and really off it's truely high IPO of number-one-without-a-doubt. Except for that slavery thing. That was bad. And the women not having a vote. And lots of other stuff.

But we all come from flawed countries.
True greatness should be measured in how a country advances the wellfare of its inhabitants. In this, the US has been backsliding for a few decades. If one adds in how a country treats other country's citizens, the US is falling quickly into the realm of history's basest tyrannies.

[Lothian]

Have you heard of tjekoslovakia?
Where bud were invented, the real one.No, is it near Czechoslovakia?

[PixyMisa]

If one adds in how a country treats other country's citizens, the US is falling quickly into the realm of history's basest tyrannies.
You haven't read much history, have you?

Compare America's treatment of its own and other countries' citizens with the history of, let's say, France, Germany, Russia, China, Japan, or to pick one completely at random, Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State_Genocide).

[catbasket]

Hey, I feel left out! My country, UK, has a pretty impressive record of mistreating its own and other countries' citizens.

The USA is pretty cool, so are many other countries. None are anywhere near perfect, and which is the best (or nearest to perfection) is only a matter of opinion. In my opinion ;)

[Lothian]

Hey, I feel left out! My country, UK, has a pretty impressive record of mistreating its own and other countries' citizens.
The other countries are partly to blame, they didn't have to buy teletubbies.

[catbasket]

I have no problem if people are into masochism, so long as nobody gets hurt.

[PixyMisa]

Hey, I feel left out! My country, UK, has a pretty impressive record of mistreating its own and other countries' citizens.
Yeah, well, British cooking vs. Doctor Who. I think the balance is still in your favour, albeit barely.

[Cuddles]

What would you say to those who would consider European's attitude toward labor (e.g. shorter work days and relatively large amounts of off time) to be laziness?

I'd say to come back and bother me later once I've got out of bed.

[Lothian]

I'd say to come back and bother me later once I've got out of bed.Perhaps we could get together to answer this one for Mark. Unfortunatly we wont be able to meet up for a while. I am away on holiday for the next fortnight. I know it is a strange time of year to take holdays but I was sick for a couple of months earlier in the year so I didn't use up any leave. As things stand I have loads left to take before the year is over and and I can only carry over half my annual allowance of 30 days.

[DC]

Disagree

Humbleness would be part of a perfect society in my oppinion,. But no worry, something perfect doesnt exist, and it will for sure not be humans that will reach it :)

[HarryKeogh]

America's cool but I'd love to give a Scandinavian country a chance.

[erlando]

Disagree. The beer sucks.

[Rolfe]

Disagree

Humbleness would be part of a perfect society in my oppinion,. But no worry, something perfect doesnt exist, and it will for sure not be humans that will reach it :)


Knowing that the word "humility" exists would be nice. :D

Oh wait, Dana Ullman knew, and he's Merikan....

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

I was in the USA last month. Michigan. It was great. Lots of nice things.

The weather.
The people.
The restaurants.
The fact that it seems to be perfectly normal to go out and eat breakfast in such a place.
The fact that it seems to be perfectly normal to eat out several times a week (I think I can see why so many people had a weight problem....)
The polite children.
The nice houses.

The scenery wasn't up to much, but I've seen pictures which indicate that this is not a universal condition in the USA.

And I could go on. But probably a lot of why I enjoyed myself so much was that I was on holiday and my host and hostess were retired (and pretty well off), so it was a week of do-as-we-pleased.

I think it's very difficult to judge a society when one is only there on holiday, rather than having to work and support oneself within it. I do agree about one of the main criteria being how a society treats its disadvantaged, and in that sense some of what I picked up on seemed disturbing in relation to what I'm used to at home.

Rolfe.

[Darat]

...snip...

I think it's very difficult to judge a society when one is only there on holiday, rather than having to work and support oneself within it.

...snip....

Absolute rubbish - OK I'll give you back in the dark ages that may have been true but thanks to the wonder of teh interweb we have everything we need to come to an instant conclusion about an entire country by reading a single post by a single citizen of a country.

[Fredrik]

Doesn't it suck that your boss can fire you whenever he feels like it? I mean if he's just in a bad mood or something? (If that's not the case, let me know). Here (Sweden) it's actually quite difficult to fire someone, and I think that's a better system. It's weird to me that people that are so proud of their "freedom" can accept a system that gives their bosses so much power over them.

It is of course possible that I'm completely wrong about how things work in the USA. I'm getting most of my information from TV shows, and the closest thing to non-fiction that I watch regularly is The Daily Show. :)

[G-K-4]

Why do so many of you hate America?
Who does?

I do. I mean, if I have to hear that stupid song about the horse in the desert, I swear I'm going to scream.

Europe isn't much better, although the song about rockets to Venus has some kitsch value.

[shuttlt]

And when it comes to drawbacks...I'd consider being gassed to death or eaten alive by your dictator to be a greater concern then moonlighting. Those types of things are frighteningly common in the history of most other countries we've seen...and as long as the charter is followed that can't happen in the US.
Even before George Washington, it was the exception rather than the rule to be eaten by your dictator. Mad old George III very seldom ate anyone. If Britain had gone on ruling the world, instead of letting the US have a turn behind the wheel, I doubt many more people would have been either gassed, or eaten. The US has been gassing people as a method of execution throughout the twentieth century, so in fact the number might well have been somewhat smaller.

[cwalner]

Doesn't it suck that your boss can fire you whenever he feels like it? I mean if he's just in a bad mood or something? (If that's not the case, let me know). Here (Sweden) it's actually quite difficult to fire someone, and I think that's a better system. It's weird to me that people that are so proud of their "freedom" can accept a system that gives their bosses so much power over them.

It is of course possible that I'm completely wrong about how things work in the USA. I'm getting most of my information from TV shows, and the closest thing to non-fiction that I watch regularly is The Daily Show. :)

You are quite wrong about labor relations in the US, especially for large companies and government agencies. because of our freedoms, we have the right to sue for something called 'Wrongful Termination' even in the 'right to work' states.

However, because larger employers are more likely to be sued, due to deeper pockets, this means that large companies are very careful at making sure they dot thier i's and cross thier t's before enacting any termination.

Some small companies, however, will play fast and loose and terminate on whim, simply because they don't have the assets to make it worthwhile for a wronged employee to sue them, even if they have a valid case.

[Jekyll]

No, is it near Czechoslovakia?

Where's that? Is it near the Czech republic or Slovakia?

[Georg]

Perhaps we could get together to answer this one for Mark. Unfortunatly we wont be able to meet up for a while. I am away on holiday for the next fortnight. I know it is a strange time of year to take holdays but I was sick for a couple of months earlier in the year so I didn't use up any leave. As things stand I have loads left to take before the year is over and and I can only carry over half my annual allowance of 30 days.


Only thirty days???????
I did not know that there are still countries in Europe that haven´t abolished slavery yet. I hope this is not happening somewhere in the EU, because that would really be a disgrace for our shiny union. Where are you from if I may ask?

[Praktik]

Why do so many of you hate America?

I've put a lot of thought into why I hate America so deeply, and I always come up with the same answer: your freedoms.

[Fiona]

Nominated :D

[Fredrik]

Only thirty days???????
I did not know there are still countries in Europe that haven´t abolished slavery yet. I hope this is not happening somewhere in the EU, because that would really be a disgrace for our shiny union. Where are you from if I may ask?
I don't know where Lothian is from, but 30 days is quite common here in Sweden. 25 is standard, but a lot of people get 5 extra days. Those who do are usually expected to work unpaid overtime once in a while when it's needed.

You are quite wrong about labor relations in the US, especially for large companies and government agencies. because of our freedoms, we have the right to sue for something called 'Wrongful Termination' even in the 'right to work' states.

I'm glad to hear that. It seems that your many excellent TV shows have given me the wrong impression about your country.

[Fiona]

Doesn't it cost money to sue?

[Lothian]

Only thirty days???????
I did not know that there are still countries in Europe that haven´t abolished slavery yet. I hope this is not happening somewhere in the EU, because that would really be a disgrace for our shiny union. Where are you from if I may ask?UK, I appreciate 30 is low. admittedly I do get 8 Public Holidays on top, and a couple for the queen's birthday, maundy thursday etc but barely scraping 8 weeks William Wilberforce will be turning in his grave.

[cwalner]

Doesn't it cost money to sue?

yes and no. Typically in a case like this, the attorney would work on a retainer, so would cover the up front costs, but would then get up to 1/3 of the settlement.

And yes, I believe that this arrangement is a good thing about the US. it ensures that anybody, even those without much means, have access to the legal system, but has a natural stopgap for frivolous lawsuits (very few attorney's will take an unwinnable case on retainer). And for those who think the 1/3 is excessive, remember, the attorney is the one taking all of the financial risk.

[cwalner]

UK, I appreciate 30 is low. admittedly I do get 8 Public Holidays on top, and a couple for the queen's birthday, maundy thursday etc but barely scraping 8 weeks William Wilberforce will be turning in his grave.

Now I am sad. I (in USA) get 24 days vacation + 7 company holidays. That is because I have been with my company over 10 years. New hires get 9 days vacation + 7 company holidays.

[quarky]

Lindsey Lohan is gay.

(2 more points for the U.S.)

[Georg]

I don't know where Lothian is from, but 30 days is quite common here in Sweden. 25 is standard, but a lot of people get 5 extra days. Those who do are usually expected to work unpaid overtime once in a while when it's needed.



30 is quite normal for where I live as well. Maybe I should have added a smiley or two, but I thought the text itself would make it clear that I was joking. Sorry for any confusion.


UK, I appreciate 30 is low. admittedly I do get 8 Public Holidays on top, and a couple for the queen's birthday, maundy thursday etc but barely scraping 8 weeks William Wilberforce will be turning in his grave.

:)

[Rolfe]

UK, I appreciate 30 is low. admittedly I do get 8 Public Holidays on top, and a couple for the queen's birthday, maundy thursday etc but barely scraping 8 weeks William Wilberforce will be turning in his grave.


Maybe I'm hard done by, but I get 25 days plus the 8 public holidays. I thought this was standard. People who work for this institution for a long time (not sure how long) accumulate rights to extra days, however. I can only carry over 10 days, but frankly that's enough. Also, if I work a public holiday, I'm entitled to take equivalent time off in lieu.

At least everyone gets sick leave without having to use up their holiday time if they're ill.

Rolfe.

[Morrigan]

What would you say to those who would consider European's attitude toward labor (e.g. shorter work days and relatively large amounts of off time) to be laziness?

I'd laugh at them as they spend their lives breaking their backs while the civilized world spend more time enjoying their free time. Laziness is good!

Working just plain sucks, especially when you have to work for others. I plan to retire as early as humanly possible. Sadly I live in Canada, where our labour laws are closer to the USA's than Europe's. A minimum of 10 measly paid vacation days a year, and a few holidays. Grrrr. Well, at least we get 15 days at my current job, but that's still way too low.

[Donal]

The first problem is: What is perfect? A lot of you say the US isn't perfect because the government doesn't provide and force us to do things a certain way (vacation and such). The problem is, our society is based on the idea that it isn't the government's place to do such things.

A lot of you look at the poor in this country and think its awful they are treated that way. Yes, we do have a seemingly high poverty rate for a Western country. But, our idea of poverty is different from yours. Also, we have greater social and economic advancement than most other countries. A child born to a poor, single mother can grow up to hold our highest office.

Its all a matter of what you value.

Thats not to say we completely abandon the unlucky in our society. we just have a different idea of helping them. we leave it more to our private citizens than to giant government programs. At least, in theory.

Another thing people need to know about the US, is that there is no one way to define us. we have many distinct regions and sub cultures. I live in NYC and have found I have more in common with people in Dublin and Toronto than I do with people from St Louis and SoCal.

[Beerina]

Many European countries offer a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation. These countries > the USA, by default.

"Studies" that cherry pick awesome-o things European countries offer, and give them great weighting to make the US look bad, are a dime a dozen.


I've yet to see a study that includes lower economic growth and productivity and its effect on technological advancement taken into account.

If, after a hundred years, a big region with all those "goodies" was 20% technologically behind a nasty, evil region without them, that 20% translates into millions of lives not saved and other quality of live issues. Are all the little "goodies" really buying you anything? Is anyone espousing them really a friend of humanity? Or an unwitting aid to the mass murder of millions?


Eh, who cares? It's the mental model that defines reality for most people, not the actual people who live, or don't, a hundred years from now.

[Undesired Walrus]

Perhaps the claim that the US is the greatest country in the world simply comes out of the ingrained optimism of the American people?

In most of Europe -especially Britain- we tend to bask in rivers of cynicism, even when we have a universal healthcare system.

[Blue Mountain]

Taking a break from the interesting (and for me, slightly depressing) chat about vacation allowances: List of countries by Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) [wikipedia].

The US has to rise by 11 spots before it can claim perfection. :)

[Francesca R]

I don't know where Lothian is fromIt's best not to ask. Similarly about where Lothian has been.

[Francesca R]

Also, we have greater social and economic advancement than most other countries. A child born to a poor, single mother can grow up to hold our highest office.Tsk. Yes but a bus conductor-reject with three O levels can do that here.

[Francesca R]

"Studies" that cherry pick awesome-o things European countries offer, and give them great weighting to make the US look bad, are a dime a dozen.Nope, they are ten (euro) cents for ten. So a bit more expensive.

[Francesca R]

The fact that it seems to be perfectly normal to eat out several times a weekYeah but if you don't intervene, they make dinner reservations for 6pm. Dinner?

[Donal]

Tsk. Yes but a bus conductor-reject with three O levels can do that here.

Another good thing about the US, people here actually speak English.

Good Lord, woman, what did you just say?

[Francesca R]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Major#Early_life

[EGarrett]

EGarrett, I think it's a bit rich you criticising other posters when you didn't answer the question you raised in your own thread.Maybe it's more important to me to hear what other people think? Maybe I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to answer? Maybe I prefer people to join the topic with their own interpretation of the question rather than being pre-biased either way by my own?

Doesn't it suck that your boss can fire you whenever he feels like it? I mean if he's just in a bad mood or something? (If that's not the case, let me know). Here (Sweden) it's actually quite difficult to fire someone, and I think that's a better system. It's weird to me that people that are so proud of their "freedom" can accept a system that gives their bosses so much power over them.It's also possible that your employees can quit on you whenever THEY feel like it. In theory, an employment relationship only continues as long as both parties wish it to...

(there are also labor contracts that can "protect" employers and employees from early quitting or firing)

Even before George Washington, it was the exception rather than the rule to be eaten by your dictator. Mad old George III very seldom ate anyone. If Britain had gone on ruling the world, instead of letting the US have a turn behind the wheel, I doubt many more people would have been either gassed, or eaten. The US has been gassing people as a method of execution throughout the twentieth century, so in fact the number might well have been somewhat smaller.There's a difference between gassing people for convicted murder and gassing people for looking different.

[DC]

Knowing that the word "humility" exists would be nice. :D

Oh wait, Dana Ullman knew, and he's Merikan....

Rolfe.

Thanks, didnt know the word.

Lucky i didnt claim to be near perfect :)

[DC]

when you want to include gassing people and such.

then i must say, the USA can never get perfect, it started so barbaric......
you killed the native americans.....

[EGarrett]

when you want to include gassing people and such.

then i must say, the USA can never get perfect, it started so barbaric......
you killed the native americans.....Can't argue with that. Good point.

[wolfgirl]

And when it comes to drawbacks...I'd consider being gassed to death or eaten alive by your dictator to be a greater concern then moonlighting.Bit of a false dichotomy there, no? Because we don't get gassed or eaten, we must be the best society? Lots of other places also don't get gassed or eaten, plus they have health care.

[wolfgirl]

Many European countries offer a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation. These countries > the USA, by default.I know! When we visit family in England, they are always shocked that we have had to save ALL of our vacation time for the entire year to come over for two weeks. They're always going off "on holiday."

I get two weeks plus nine paid holidays plus three personal days (that have to be used for sickness...luckily I never get sick) and my birthday off. After five years, I will get three weeks, and after ten years, I will get four weeks.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I was in the USA last month. Michigan. It was great. Lots of nice things.

The weather.
The people.
The restaurants.
The fact that it seems to be perfectly normal to go out and eat breakfast in such a place.
The fact that it seems to be perfectly normal to eat out several times a week (I think I can see why so many people had a weight problem....)
The polite children.
The nice houses.

The scenery wasn't up to much, but I've seen pictures which indicate that this is not a universal condition in the USA.

And I could go on. But probably a lot of why I enjoyed myself so much was that I was on holiday and my host and hostess were retired (and pretty well off), so it was a week of do-as-we-pleased.

I think it's very difficult to judge a society when one is only there on holiday, rather than having to work and support oneself within it. I do agree about one of the main criteria being how a society treats its disadvantaged, and in that sense some of what I picked up on seemed disturbing in relation to what I'm used to at home.

Rolfe.


Sure. Sure. The weather in Michigan in October may be great -- but wait for January. :D

Other than this comment, I'm not participating in this thread.:duck:

[Francesca R]

The difference in incentive structures that the North America vs Europe "sick day" models create is rather interesting, and probably deserves a different thread.

In Europe, people have an incentive to call in sick even when they are not, at benefit to them and cost to business.

In America people have an incentive to go to work when they are sick, probably at a cost to them but little if any benefit to business (particularly if they infect other people), but no incentive to take a day off "sick" when they are not.

Moral hazard in both cases.

[PhantomWolf]

Now I am sad. I (in USA) get 24 days vacation + 7 company holidays. That is because I have been with my company over 10 years. New hires get 9 days vacation + 7 company holidays.

In New Zealand we get 11 public Holidays (well 10 1/2 but few people work the half day on ANZAC Day) 2 for New Year, Waitangi Day (basically out 4th of July), ANZAC Day (our Mermorial Day), 2 at Easter, Queen's Birthday, Labour Day, Christmas Day and Boxing Day, and our Provincial Anniversary Day. On top of that we get 20 days holiday a year (4 weeks not including weekends) and up to 20 days sick leave depending on how long you have worked for your Employer (starts at 6 months with 5 days and increases from there.) This is the basic entitlement of all workers and some companies will grant an extra week's holiday to their long term staff giving them 5 weeks (24 days.)

This is one of the attractions for my gf to come to NZ because she does get a lot of these things. She gets less Public Holidays (her company doesn't even recognise a lot of them and their staff in certain positions have to work them) and her Holiday time and sick leave are mixed together, so if she is sick it is considered holiday time. Add to that that she is not allowed overtime of any sort, but is still expected to work from home during the weekends and even one week was working at home nearly to midnight, let's just say she's pretty fed up by her working conditions in the US. She does actually work for a very large company, but one that figures that without many worker's protections in the US and their policy on no union staff allowed, they can treat their workers like crap and get away with it. In NZ they'd likely be out of business due to the fines from stressing out their workers, a violation of the 1993 HSEA (admended in 2003 to include workplace stress) which has a fine of up to $250,000 per staffer!

ETA: Oh, just to add. If you have to work a Public Holiday in NZ that you should have gotten off, it's time and a half, plus a day in leiu.

[DC]

The difference in incentive structures that the North America vs Europe "sick day" models create is rather interesting, and probably deserves a different thread.

In Europe, people have an incentive to call in sick even when they are not, at benefit to them and cost to business.

In America people have an incentive to go to work when they are sick, probably at a cost to them but little if any benefit to business (particularly if they infect other people), but no incentive to take a day off "sick" when they are not.

Moral hazard in both cases.

interesting point

[lionking]

[QUOTE=EGarrett;4193394]Maybe it's more important to me to hear what other people think? Maybe I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to answer? Maybe I prefer people to join the topic with their own interpretation of the question rather than being pre-biased either way by my own?

That's fine, but I still think it's poor form to criticise someone's opinion when you haven't bothered to express one yourself

[quarky]

Smitty reminds me to tell you:

The U.S. of A. has the best dumpster diving of any nation on Earth.
And the Grand Canyon.

Americans built the Grand Canyon and the roads to it.

[Architect]

Doesn't it cost money to sue?


Shall we tell them about Legal Aid? Where the Government pays for your lawyer to sue the State?

[Architect]

I know! When we visit family in England, they are always shocked that we have had to save ALL of our vacation time for the entire year to come over for two weeks. They're always going off "on holiday."

I get two weeks plus nine paid holidays plus three personal days (that have to be used for sickness...luckily I never get sick) and my birthday off. After five years, I will get three weeks, and after ten years, I will get four weeks.


Has anyone explained paid maternity and paternity leave to you?

;)

[PhantomWolf]

Has anyone explained paid maternity and paternity leave to you?

;)

Oh... I forgot about that too. 14 weeks here, paid. Plus I forgot that after 6 months working for an employer you get 3 days paid bereavement leave for the death of an immediate family member and 1 day for close associates. These are separate entitlements and do not count against holidays or sick days.

[Fiona]

We have to remember that people in the united states do not want those things!

[Lothian]

Has anyone explained paid maternity and paternity leave to you?

;)I only got a week paternity. It is so bad I am thinking of getting married just to get another 5 days.

[brodski]

UK, I appreciate 30 is low. admittedly I do get 8 Public Holidays on top, and a couple for the queen's birthday, maundy thursday etc but barely scraping 8 weeks William Wilberforce will be turning in his grave.

Yeah, but it's only half a day for Maundy Thursday- the bastards are oppressing us, I mean, only 42.5 days of holiday a year!

[brodski]

I only got a week paternity. It is so bad I am thinking of getting married just to get another 5 days.

Haven't your lot abolished marriage leave? Or do you have reserved rights?

[Morrigan]

We have to remember that people in the united states do not want those things!

I'm in Canada, and our laws are similar, but I sure as hell want more days off, not less. ;)

"I am through with working. Working is for chumps."
"Son, I'm proud of you. I was twice your age before I figured that out!"

[Mr. Skinny]

Many European countries offer a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation. These countries > the USA, by default.
I have 5 weeks and 2 days of paid vacation, and over 100 hrs of paid sick leave per year. So there! :p

[quixotecoyote]

We have to remember that people in the united states do not want those things!

Damn right! We'll let the free-market decide what employee rights we should have. None of this pinko-commie-fag-socialist 'will of the people' big-brother-nanny-state incipient fascism!

[PhantomWolf]

I have 5 weeks and 2 days of paid vacation, and over 100 hrs of paid sick leave per year. So there! :p

You must be an Government employee. ;)

[PhantomWolf]

Damn right! We'll let the free-market decide what employee rights we should have. None of this pinko-commie-fag-socialist 'will of the people' big-brother-nanny-state incipient fascism!

Exactly, it's so much better having big corperate business decide people's rights than some darn Government pocking its nose in and telling the real rulers of the country what to do.

[Toke]

Exactly, it's so much better having big corperate business decide people's rights than some darn Government pocking its nose in and telling the real rulers of the country what to do.


Fortunately USA does not seem to have that problem, not much at least, and I am sure Obama is well paid to reduce the problem further.

[PixyMisa]

I haven't had paid leave of any sort since, hmm, 1994.

[Elizabeth I]

The official UN bean-counters seem to prefer the Nordic societies, while I admit to admiration for the Canucks.

Nope, the climate's too cold.

Oh, were we talking about the people? That's different...

[erlando]

Vacation in DK: Most have 30 days paid + 7 holidays. If Christmas falls "right" we get 5 extra days (Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and the day after that + New Years Eve + Jan 1st). That's 42 paid days in a good year.

[DC]

I think when you ist how many days of paid vacation you have, one should also include how many hours are worked per week.

we have between 20 and 30 days + several holiydays. (The katholic regions in my country have more holidays)

we work normaly 45 hours a week.

[Lothian]

Haven't your lot abolished marriage leave? Or do you have reserved rights?I have reserved rights, I guess there is a backlog as I am still waiting for them to provide me with a bride.

[Architect]

I think when you ist how many days of paid vacation you have, one should also include how many hours are worked per week.

we have between 20 and 30 days + several holiydays. (The katholic regions in my country have more holidays)

we work normaly 45 hours a week.

20-25 annual leave, about 10 stat/public, and 40 hour weeks. Wll not for me, as I own the business and hence work 60 hours, but you know what I mean.

[vaquero]

The US is FAR from a 'ideal society'. There is much less discrimination in many European countries --Switzerland specifically. Some have referred to Switzerland as a federation of 'city states', very nearly an Athenian concept of Democracy, most certainly nearer to 'direct Democracy' than was found in the US.

The Swiss Constitution is an amazing document. That is likewise true of the US Constitution --but the trouble with the US Constitution is that 'politicians' don't seem to bother reading it anymore. The current 'President' called it a 'goddamned piece of paper'. The population, likewise, seems not to care that the President and Congress seem to be oblivious of the Constitution --the Supreme Law of the land --whenever it conflicts with their sponsors, i.e, lobbyists. America may never be a great nation as long as money buys laws.

Secondly, in the US primary system seems designed to weed out the voices of any party but the GOP and the Dems. In Europe, you will find many viable parties. It is not unusual to see coalitions form around major issues. In Switzerland, many issues are put to a direct referendum. Other issue are raised by 'initiative'. This 'direct Democracy' at work.

Moreover, not only the electoral college but the method of tabulating votes discriminates against any position but the 'center' which is lately 'skewed' to the right. There are other ways to count votes in elections --range voting, Borda count, etc. Most of them are fair superior to US methodologies in that they more accurate reflect the wishes of the population.

In the US 'corporations' are considered to be 'persons' but because they have access to much more money that do real flesh and blood living folk, corporations have found many ways to influence election by money power. This might not be the case were corporations not considered to be 'people' --which, of course, they are not. Strictly speaking, corporations have NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER. It is absurd to believe or put forward the idea that mere 'legal abstractions' have First Amendment right to free speech. Yet --that is the curse that is left us by an obscure SCOTUS decision which mistook 'mere words on paper' for living, breathing human beings.

Let's talk about 'bigotry'. Bigotry is the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about. I am confident that well-designed studies will support the proposition that despite the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, the US remains among the most bigoted societies in the world. Much remains to be done.

Bigotry brings up the issue of elitism. Never 'egalitarian', the US has become one of the most elitist societies in the world. Since Ronald Reagan's infamous 'supply side' inspired 'tax cut' of 1982, the upper one percent of the US population has come to own more than the remaining 90 percent combined. There are NUMEORUS authoritive sources for this but the so-called 'official' ones are probably the best: the Census Bureau (specifically the briefings by Dr. Weingerger), the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Department of Commerce - BEA. Another telling resource is a video (available on YouTube) called "The L-Curve". It is based upon the above 'official statistics' and other reliable and authoritative sources.

Not all of the data is in yet --but I am willing to wager than when the books are closed on Iraq, the war that was begun upon a bald faced, deliberate lie will have made that 'upper one percent --already in possession of about 90 percent of the nation's total wealth --much, much, much richer still. It is absurd NOT to conclude that the war was begun upon a pack of lies that it might enrich what Bush called his 'base'. I would think that --by definition --'ideal societies' would not tolerate such venality.

[Architect]

More than a few sweeping generalisations in there, mate.

[SisterSmile]

One of the major obstacles for the US to reach perfection is the lack of critical thinking in the majority of its population.

A large part of US citizens relies on mainstream media to keep up to date, but these media have become less impartial and objective and especially in their coverage of the war they became instruments of war propaganda.

The US has adapted this "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude, suppressing any critical sounds as "unpattriotic". This black and white thinking and polarizing of issues is detrimental to sceptic views and critical thinking.

I'm not sure how much the American education system has contributed to this evolution but critical thinking is a skill that can be honed and schools should help children develop an "open mind" as much as possible.

[Richard Masters]

Agree/disagree? Why or why not.

Fast internet. So I agree.

American Football is a waste of bandwidth, so I disagree.

Mexico and Nigeria have been rated as the happiest countries in the world, so I disagree.

[Francesca R]

Fast internet. So I agree.Actually, the US lags a bit (http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11413046) there.

[DC]

The US is FAR from a 'ideal society'. There is much less discrimination in many European countries --Switzerland specifically. Some have referred to Switzerland as a federation of 'city states', very nearly an Athenian concept of Democracy, most certainly nearer to 'direct Democracy' than was found in the US.

Also Switzerland is FAR from a "ideal society"
When you look at Garbage production per capita, we are on the same level like the USA, and still we like to point out how much Garbage americans produce. On the other hand, we have the best E-recycling world wide, whish i find a good point, considered that we are a very small country.


The Swiss Constitution is an amazing document. That is likewise true of the US Constitution --but the trouble with the US Constitution is that 'politicians' don't seem to bother reading it anymore. The current 'President' called it a 'goddamned piece of paper'. The population, likewise, seems not to care that the President and Congress seem to be oblivious of the Constitution --the Supreme Law of the land --whenever it conflicts with their sponsors, i.e, lobbyists. America may never be a great nation as long as money buys laws.

It is not like swiss politicans do not cherry pick the constitution and take only the points that serves them. I think that is politics, and should be changed.


Secondly, in the US primary system seems designed to weed out the voices of any party but the GOP and the Dems. In Europe, you will find many viable parties. It is not unusual to see coalitions form around major issues. In Switzerland, many issues are put to a direct referendum. Other issue are raised by 'initiative'. This 'direct Democracy' at work.

That is indeed a point i like alot about our system, also the smallest softest voices are heard. I like that our system is forcing politicans to work together beyond their partys.


Moreover, not only the electoral college but the method of tabulating votes discriminates against any position but the 'center' which is lately 'skewed' to the right. There are other ways to count votes in elections --range voting, Borda count, etc. Most of them are fair superior to US methodologies in that they more accurate reflect the wishes of the population.

In the US 'corporations' are considered to be 'persons' but because they have access to much more money that do real flesh and blood living folk, corporations have found many ways to influence election by money power. This might not be the case were corporations not considered to be 'people' --which, of course, they are not. Strictly speaking, corporations have NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER. It is absurd to believe or put forward the idea that mere 'legal abstractions' have First Amendment right to free speech. Yet --that is the curse that is left us by an obscure SCOTUS decision which mistook 'mere words on paper' for living, breathing human beings.

I also have the impression that in the USA it is alot more easy for Companys to get influence (lobbying) with money. Even Swiss Companys like Novartis is spending Money into US lobby work. I dont like that.


Let's talk about 'bigotry'. Bigotry is the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about. I am confident that well-designed studies will support the proposition that despite the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, the US remains among the most bigoted societies in the world. Much remains to be done.

We also have Bigotry, especially when you go more into the more religius and more rural areas. Thats not American, thats Human :D


Bigotry brings up the issue of elitism. Never 'egalitarian', the US has become one of the most elitist societies in the world. Since Ronald Reagan's infamous 'supply side' inspired 'tax cut' of 1982, the upper one percent of the US population has come to own more than the remaining 90 percent combined. There are NUMEORUS authoritive sources for this but the so-called 'official' ones are probably the best: the Census Bureau (specifically the briefings by Dr. Weingerger), the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Department of Commerce - BEA. Another telling resource is a video (available on YouTube) called "The L-Curve". It is based upon the above 'official statistics' and other reliable and authoritative sources.

the Elite Problem is the same, maybe even wors here in Switzerland. The rich get huge taxcuts here, why do you think so many Formula one stars moved to switzerland :) Prozentual they pay almost nothing.

Also do our Bankers get fat Bonuses even when their bank is running in to the red.

And also here the gap between Poor and Rich is to big and is getting bigger daily.While i want to point out, that our poor people would be considered rich in a huge number of other countrys.


Not all of the data is in yet --but I am willing to wager than when the books are closed on Iraq, the war that was begun upon a bald faced, deliberate lie will have made that 'upper one percent --already in possession of about 90 percent of the nation's total wealth --much, much, much richer still. It is absurd NOT to conclude that the war was begun upon a pack of lies that it might enrich what Bush called his 'base'. I would think that --by definition --'ideal societies' would not tolerate such venality.

'upper one percent --already in possession of about 90 percent of the nation's total wealth, that is a worldwide scandal, not only the USA.

But aslong money grants you more influence into politics, i see no way of changing that :)

No im not a Socialist nor Marxist, i do lean towards socialism, but Democracy/Socialist hybrids, like i do consider my country, while it still can improve alot.

I think the USA and Switzerland are among the top countrys on this little planet, but they are far away from beeing perfect. I think scandinavian countrys are closer to perfection (Especially considering garbage production), while also there, no perfection in sight :)

And alsong i walk true Swiss streets and see NeoNazis walking around with their false and idiotic ideology and racism, i do not consider it a perfect society. And also aslong we have to limit freespeach in the fight of racism or have to creat laws to protect womans rights, i dont consider it a perfect society.
And even then, Perfect is very subjective. For alot americans, a free market without any regulations would be considered more perfect than a highly regulated market like i would prefer it.
But i guess that is once again, humans, some need the fear of a burning hell to follow some basic moral standards others need jail to learn moral standards.

A perfect society would have moral standards without the need to force its people to follow them.

[DC]

Fast internet. So I agree.

American Football is a waste of bandwidth, so I disagree.

Mexico and Nigeria have been rated as the happiest countries in the world, so I disagree.

Nigeria ? where, who?

the storys i hear from my Nigerian workers dont sound very happy.

and Afaik, Sweden has the best Internetconnestions. dunno if they are still ahead since we also have ADSLII now.

[Richard Masters]

Actually, the US lags a bit (http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11413046) there.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Also, I thought Japan had faster internet than the USA... I guess not.

[Richard Masters]

Nigeria ? where, who?

the storys i hear from my Nigerian workers dont sound very happy.

and Afaik, Sweden has the best Internetconnestions. dunno if they are still ahead since we also have ADSLII now.

Nigeria, Mexico, happiest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3157570.stm

[DC]

Nigeria, Mexico, happiest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3157570.stm

ah thanks, didnt know that, very intersting.

The survey appears to confirm the old adage that money cannot buy happiness.

that has prolly to do alot with it.

[Darth Rotor]

One of the major obstacles for the US to reach perfection is the lack of critical thinking in the majority of its population.
You lost me when you took that really broad brush, and tried to do fine detail work with it. When you are done working against a paper doll version of Americans, get back to us, will you? I dare say it will require you to critically examine why you rely on the stereotypes you used in your post.

As to the OP: EG, it is really hard to put your finger on "perfect" as has been mentioned. It is also extremely hard to compare things that differ so widely in scale. Compare the problem Switzerland has in seeking perfection, in its country, with the US. The scale differential, and of sheer numbers and variety, don't compare. Likewise Norway and Denmark. I'd like to live in Aus for a while to compare, or Kiwiland, but have not come across the opportunity.

Me, I love America, but I completely understand when a German loves Germany, and all of its German-ness, as much as I do my homeland. Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

DR

[DC]

After that my country Switzerland agreed to spend another 404 millions Fr. in our useless F/A 18's i must say, once again we moved further away from beeing perfect.

:m1helmet:

[erlando]

I think when you ist how many days of paid vacation you have, one should also include how many hours are worked per week.

we have between 20 and 30 days + several holiydays. (The katholic regions in my country have more holidays)

we work normaly 45 hours a week.

35-37,5 hours a week. No need for more, is there? ;)

[DC]

35-37,5 hours a week. No need for more, is there? ;)

That is enough from Monday to Thuesday, but what are you doing on Fridays? :D

[Cuddles]

That is indeed a point i like alot about our system, also the smallest softest voices are heard. I like that our system is forcing politicans to work together beyond their partys.

It depends really. In theory it's a great idea, but in practice it tends to make it very hard for anything to get done, since the parties in coalitions often disagree with each other. To paraphrase some famous quote - All forms of government are the best, except for all the others. Pretty much all forms of government have their flaws and while I'm not convinced American style democracy is the best, it does have advantages that other forms don't.

[DC]

It depends really. In theory it's a great idea, but in practice it tends to make it very hard for anything to get done, since the parties in coalitions often disagree with each other. To paraphrase some famous quote - All forms of government are the best, except for all the others. Pretty much all forms of government have their flaws and while I'm not convinced American style democracy is the best, it does have advantages that other forms don't.

I think this is indeed its biggest flaw, it can make decission and such very slow, they have to talk and change the things several months till they find something all involved partys can agree with.
But mostly then we have something, a compromise, that the majority can agree on.

I remember to have read something about the US founding fathers, they wanted to prevent a dictate of the majority.

But actually from out here, i get the impression that exactly is happening in the USA.
Especially when i read, now that Obama will undoo alot of Bush's things. (I like that really :) )
I know it is not exactly that way, afaik did the Democrats not get full majority in the Senate?. so they depend on some of the Republican senators.
They maybe also have to find compromises and work together.
But in the USA, one party or even one person can get very very powerfull.

I guess the USA can release laws and such very quickly. We cannot always, we often have to talk some weeks and months. But this gives you time to read the stuff you have to vote for, and form an oppinion. sometimes you hear US senators say, i didnt have the time to read it, but we voted.

But sure, everyone his own system. But i honestly think it is never to late to improve our systems :) this goes for all the systems.

I also have the impression that the vioces that dislike the so called 2 party system are getting more. Maybe i have a wrong impression in that.
But i personaly find it very strange that such a huge country with so many people can be represented by only 2 partys.
On the Other hand, China has enough with one :D

ETA: I know there are many partys in the USA, you also have the greens, libs, independent, Socialists, communists,vampires :s

[The Atheist]

Disagree. Proof: Rugby is not held in proper esteem, and your beer needs improvement. Move to New Zealand! :)

Ha.

No point reading the thread after that comment.

(Even if it is wrong.)

[Matthew Best]

Since Ronald Reagan's infamous 'supply side' inspired 'tax cut' of 1982, the upper one percent of the US population has come to own more than the remaining 90 percent combined.

What happened - did they eat the other 9% of the population? :eek:

[PogoPedant]

Ha.

No point reading the thread after that comment.

(Even if it is wrong.)

Indeed.

Although New Zealand rugby is superior, and New Zealand has some great beer (I worship at the feet of Monteiths Summer Ale), England has the better selection of beers.

[erlando]

That is enough from Monday to Thuesday, but what are you doing on Fridays? :D

Actually I own my own company so my weekly hours are more like 50+. But the workday in DK is 7-7,5 hours for most people. We don't have to work more than that so why should we? :)

In the company I own we have a goal that says we will work on paying assignments Monday to Thursday. Friday will be reserved for just-for-fun-and-learning projects. There's a bit of way to go yet though.

[DC]

Actually I own my own company so my weekly hours are more like 50+. But the workday in DK is 7-7,5 hours for most people. We don't have to work more than that so why should we? :)

In the company I own we have a goal that says we will work on paying assignments Monday to Thursday. Friday will be reserved for just-for-fun-and-learning projects. There's a bit of way to go yet though.

you should not :)

[PhantomWolf]

Nigeria, Mexico, happiest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3157570.stm

I see your 2003 BBC article and raise it with the 2007 Global Projection of Subjective Well-being Study which says that people in Denmark and Switzerland have the highest overall satisfaction with life. (http://www.le.ac.uk/users/aw57/world/sample.html)

[Soapy Sam]

Or the lowest aspirations.

[WildCat]

Secondly, in the US primary system seems designed to weed out the voices of any party but the GOP and the Dems.
You don't have the slightest clue what the US primary system even is...

[soetkin]

Considering that I wouldn't be allowed to legally marry my life partner in most of the states, than no, I think the US is very far from being a perfect society.

There are other reasons, but for the moment this stands out for me.

[Damien Evans]

After that my country Switzerland agreed to spend another 404 millions Fr. in our useless F/A 18's i must say, once again we moved further away from beeing perfect.

:m1helmet:

If they want something to do with them they can donate one to me.:)

I love the F/A 18, particularly the C version, even though E outperforms it.

[SisterSmile]

You lost me when you took that really broad brush, and tried to do fine detail work with it. When you are done working against a paper doll version of Americans, get back to us, will you? I dare say it will require you to critically examine why you rely on the stereotypes you used in your post.


I've read on this forum several times that the US gets the stereotypes it deserves. There are valid reasons why a large part of the world now has a very negative view of the Americans. (I won't get into them here)

My idea that this lack of cricital thinking has its root in education is based on an article by William T. Daly (1990) , "Developing Critical Thinking Skills." He says that

"the critical thinking movement in the U.S. has been bolstered and sustained by the business community's need to compete in a global economy. The general skill levels needed in the work force are going up while the skill levels of potential employees are going down. As a result, this particular educational reform movement . . . will remain crucial to the education of the work force and the economy's performance in the global arena. This economic pressure to teach critical thinking skills will fall on educational institutions because these skills, for the most part, are rarely taught or reinforced outside formal educational institutions. Unfortunately, at the moment, they are also rarely taught inside educational institutions."

But really, I guess you disagree with me then ? Do you think that the majority of your fellow countrymen are critical and sceptical thinkers ? Are you convinced that your mass media are objective, neutral and impartial ?

[Beerina]

This presumes the conclusions the average people of other countries arrive at are better.

Knee-jerking against the US is hardly rationale for concluding "better". We force technology ahead faster than other countries, which compounds like interest, until life with that advantage >>> life without in a wonderful, popular socialist system.

You never see that delta, though, because tech is shared throughout the world, thus masking the net drag on tech development these "better" countries cause.

[DanishDynamite]

Agree/disagree? Why or why not.
Given that Denmark is the happiest nation (http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5), the most competative nation (http://www.ambbeograd.um.dk/da/menu/Eksportraadgivning/Markedsmuligheder/SidsteNyt/DENMARKHASEUSMOSTCOMPETITIVEECONOMY.htm) and has the greatest press freedom (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715), it is hard to take other competitors seriously.

[DC]

Given that Denmark is the happiest nation (http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5), the most competative nation (http://www.ambbeograd.um.dk/da/menu/Eksportraadgivning/Markedsmuligheder/SidsteNyt/DENMARKHASEUSMOSTCOMPETITIVEECONOMY.htm) and has the greatest press freedom (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715), it is hard to take other competitors seriously.

and Denmark is also the number 1 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_was_gen-environment-waste-generation) in waste production.


Gratz ;)

[applecorped]

If the society that invents Budweiser is the perfect society, then surely Belgium must be the abode of the gods?


Budweiser is Belgium owned now. The US just got a little less perfect. :(:(

[DC]

If they want something to do with them they can donate one to me.:)

I love the F/A 18, particularly the C version, even though E outperforms it.

Like that one (http://www.patrouillesuisse.ch/fanclub/downloads/wp0340669aa1121f90a4.jpg) ?

they look great, i love US jets.

i would agree to have the Patrouille Suisse have some for funn.
But we have 34 of them. Darn noisy and expensive to maintain

sorry enough derail :D

[DanishDynamite]

and Denmark is also the number 1 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_was_gen-environment-waste-generation) in waste production.


Gratz ;)
Could you explain this statistic? What does it mean?

[DC]

Could you explain this statistic? What does it mean?

in short:

we are a throwaway society

in long:

Kilograms of waste generated per person per year ( 2000).

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/da-denmark/env-environment

[DanishDynamite]

in short:

we are a throwaway society

in long:

Kilograms of waste generated per person per year ( 2000).

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/da-denmark/env-environment
I don't follow.

Please define the waste you are talking about.

[HarryKeogh]

I don't follow.

Please define the waste you are talking about.

Human waste. Danes take giant, giant dumps.

[DanishDynamite]

Human waste. Danes take giant, giant dumps.
Record setting dumps? I wouldn't be surprised.

[DC]

I don't follow.

Please define the waste you are talking about.

http://blog.archipelago.gr/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/waste-1-epr1-landfill.jpg

[DanishDynamite]

http://blog.archipelago.gr/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/waste-1-epr1-landfill.jpgI don't follow.

Please define the waste you are talking about.

[DC]

I don't follow.

Please define the waste you are talking about.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/60/59/38106368.pdf

[Darth Rotor]

But really, I guess you disagree with me then ? Do you think that the majority of your fellow countrymen are critical and sceptical thinkers ?
What does that question have to do with
Are you convinced that your mass media are objective, neutral and impartial ?
This? There is no media anywhere on this planet that is objective, that I am aware of, as each has either a state or editorial slant. Can't help themselves, really, as humans run the various organs of the media, wherever they are.

But that questions disgusts me. You mistake the plastic wrapper for the candy inside.

Are you Oliver's clone?

Further, to your first question, you seem to make the assumption that since one does not think as you do, they must not be a critical thinker.

DR

[DanishDynamite]

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/60/59/38106368.pdf

Could you point out what you are referring to in that document?

[The Atheist]

Given that Denmark is the happiest nation (http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5), ....

Ah, but at least we know why (http://www.immortality.co.nz/news%20network/denmark.html).

Christians are happier than secular people as well - I guess that makes them the perfect role model.

[DC]

Could you point out what you are referring to in that document?

there you find the details of our waste.

How much Nuclear waste, how much Industrial waste, how much municipal waste, recycling rates, waste treatment and disposal instalations. etc.

[Donal]

The US is FAR from a 'ideal society'.

Again, define "ideal".

There is much less discrimination in many European countries --Switzerland specifically.

And I'm sure you can prove that.

Some have referred to Switzerland as a federation of 'city states', very nearly an Athenian concept of Democracy, most certainly nearer to 'direct Democracy' than was found in the US.

Tell you what: When Switzerland has a population of around 300 million, stretches across 6 time zones, contains every ethnicity on the planet, and has a mainland 3000 miles wide, we'll get back to this point.

The Swiss Constitution is an amazing document. That is likewise true of the US Constitution --but the trouble with the US Constitution is that 'politicians' don't seem to bother reading it anymore.

Oh, ya, because politicians in Switzerland don't bend the law for their own needs.

The current 'President' called it a 'goddamned piece of paper'. The population, likewise, seems not to care that the President and Congress seem to be oblivious of the Constitution --the Supreme Law of the land --whenever it conflicts with their sponsors, i.e, lobbyists. America may never be a great nation as long as money buys laws.

Ya, we should give him a 20% approval rating and then kick his whole party out of power or something like that.

Secondly, in the US primary system seems designed to weed out the voices of any party but the GOP and the Dems.

Um, the primaries are just the internal selection process for the individual parties. They actually have nothing to do with the general election. Why exactly would the Democrats let anyone but Democrats decide who they run for president?

In Europe, you will find many viable parties. It is not unusual to see coalitions form around major issues.

thats how the Dems and Reps got started. Several different activist groups rallied together. If you watchthe primaries, uyou can actually see these groups fight with each other for power within the parties.

In Switzerland, many issues are put to a direct referendum. Other issue are raised by 'initiative'. This 'direct Democracy' at work.

Ya, thats how some local issues are handled. Unfortunately, that whole 300 million dispersed population issue I mentioned before makes a nation wide direct referendum virtually impossible.

Moreover, not only the electoral college but the method of tabulating votes discriminates against any position but the 'center' which is lately 'skewed' to the right. There are other ways to count votes in elections --range voting, Borda count, etc. Most of them are fair superior to US methodologies in that they more accurate reflect the wishes of the population.

Every method has its flaws. One group or another will get screwed. electoral college simply makes sure that the East Coast US does not dominate politics while the less densely populated areas are ignored.

In the US 'corporations' are considered to be 'persons' but because they have access to much more money that do real flesh and blood living folk, corporations have found many ways to influence election by money power.

So, a group of people influencing an election is worse than one rich guy influencing an election?

This might not be the case were corporations not considered to be 'people' --which, of course, they are not. Strictly speaking, corporations have NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER. It is absurd to believe or put forward the idea that mere 'legal abstractions' have First Amendment right to free speech. Yet --that is the curse that is left us by an obscure SCOTUS decision which mistook 'mere words on paper' for living, breathing human beings.

Corporations are groups of people.

Let's talk about 'bigotry'.

Oh goodie. A guy from a country that can be described as an Aryan stronghold is going to call Americans out on the carpet over bigotry. This should be fun.

Bigotry is the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about.

Ya, because if its one issue that is never discussed in the US, its race relations and inequlities.

I am confident that well-designed studies will support the proposition that despite the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, the US remains among the most bigoted societies in the world.

I'm going to ask you real nicely to wither produce some of these studies or to appologize for that comment.

Much remains to be done.

Yes, we do have many issues within economics, education and justice that need to be addresses, but you, sir, are in no positition to lecture us about it.

Bigotry brings up the issue of elitism.

Oh, Lord.

Never 'egalitarian', the US has become one of the most elitist societies in the world.

Yes, with our social and economic mobility the likes of which the world has never seen before.

Since Ronald Reagan's infamous 'supply side' inspired 'tax cut' of 1982, the upper one percent of the US population has come to own more than the remaining 90 percent combined. [quote]

Has this ever been proven, or is this just something Marx pulled out of his nether regions and people have been paroting since?

[quote]There are NUMEORUS authoritive sources for this but the so-called 'official' ones are probably the best: the Census Bureau (specifically the briefings by Dr. Weingerger), the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Department of Commerce - BEA. Another telling resource is a video (available on YouTube) called "The L-Curve". It is based upon the above 'official statistics' and other reliable and authoritative sources.

I noticed you didn't link them.

Not all of the data is in yet

But why should that stopped you from slamming the US?

--but I am willing to wager than when the books are closed on Iraq, the war that was begun upon a bald faced, deliberate lie will have made that 'upper one percent --already in possession of about 90 percent of the nation's total wealth --much, much, much richer still. It is absurd NOT to conclude that the war was begun upon a pack of lies that it might enrich what Bush called his 'base'.

You would make somebody very rich.

I would think that --by definition --'ideal societies' would not tolerate such venality.

You haven't defined an ideal society.

[DanishDynamite]

there you find the details of our waste.

How much Nuclear waste, how much Industrial waste, how much municipal waste, recycling rates, waste treatment and disposal instalations. etc.
DC, I'm trying to understand what you mean, or what the page you referenced means, when it says Denmark is no.1 in waste.

Does it propose that Danes throw more waste into landfills (kgs per person) than any other country? If not, what does it propose?

[DC]

DC, I'm trying to understand what you mean, or what the page you referenced means, when it says Denmark is no.1 in waste.

Does it propose that Danes throw more waste into landfills (kgs per person) than any other country? If not, what does it propose?

it is total municipal waste generated in a country, in one year, divided by total population of the country.

its only that. does say nothing about the treathment of it. (But the links to the full studie does also have stats about recycling rates and all the details)

[DC]

....
Oh goodie. A guy from a country that can be described as an Aryan stronghold....

oh i assumed he is from Switzerland, where do you think he is coming from?

[DanishDynamite]

it is total municipal waste generated in a country, in one year, divided by total population of the country.

its only that. does say nothing about the treathment of it. (But the links to the full studie does also have stats about recycling rates and all the details)
So, it is the total municipal waste generated in a country, in one year, divided by total population of the country, with no regard to any recycling or treatment or anything else.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Donal]

oh i assumed he is from Switzerland, where do you think he is coming from?


A place with a make up like

German 65%, French 18%, Italian 10%, Romansch 1%, other 6%

I just find it amusing that someone from a country whose population is overwhelmingly 4 kinds of white is trying to lecture Americans about how to handle ethnic diversity.

[Vic Vega]

Doesn't it suck that your boss can fire you whenever he feels like it?

Sometimes, but it works both ways. It's great if you are a business owner or manager and have a lousy employee you want to get rid of.

People usually don't get fired if they're doing a good job.

[DC]

A place with a make up like

German 65%, French 18%, Italian 10%, Romansch 1%, other 6%

I just find it amusing that someone from a country whose population is overwhelmingly 4 kinds of white is trying to lecture Americans about how to handle ethnic diversity.

i am really offended


could you pls devine

Aryian, Germans, Helvetii

[Fiona]

A place with a make up like

German 65%, French 18%, Italian 10%, Romansch 1%, other 6%

I just find it amusing that someone from a country whose population is overwhelmingly 4 kinds of white is trying to lecture Americans about how to handle ethnic diversity.

If you honestly believe that being white is relevant in this context you really do not seem to have much grasp of ethnic diversity at all.

[PhantomWolf]

This presumes the conclusions the average people of other countries arrive at are better.

Knee-jerking against the US is hardly rationale for concluding "better". We force technology ahead faster than other countries, which compounds like interest, until life with that advantage >>> life without in a wonderful, popular socialist system.

You never see that delta, though, because tech is shared throughout the world, thus masking the net drag on tech development these "better" countries cause.

This isn't necessarily true. For instance Japan was the country that was pushing cutting edge electronics for years. NZ has created a remarkable number of technologies for its size including developing that little chip you find inside a compact handheld GPS system (in fact the company that makes them got in trouble a few years back when it was claimed that they were selling them to the US for use in GPS guided Nuclear Weapons, something that would be a violation of our Nuclear Free Law) along with state if the art DNA testing that can pull DNA from nearly any sample. While the US certainly does help to push the technological boundries, to say that it does so faster or more than other countries and then pulls them along by sharing it with them is not really true. Many times other counties are having the breakthroughs and sharing with the US.

[DanishDynamite]

Given that Denmark is the happiest nation (http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5), the most competative nation (http://www.ambbeograd.um.dk/da/menu/Eksportraadgivning/Markedsmuligheder/SidsteNyt/DENMARKHASEUSMOSTCOMPETITIVEECONOMY.htm) and has the greatest press freedom (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715), it is hard to take other competitors seriously.

My original post stands.

Any comments?

[DC]

My original post stands.

Any comments?

Denmark is surely one of the countrys we all can learn from

[Toke]

If you honestly believe that being white is relevant in this context you really do not seem to have much grasp of ethnic diversity at all.


What, can´t you tell a Serbian from a Kroat on sight??

I knew there is a* way to measure wealth distribution and just found this on wikki.
Gini coefficient**, it confirms that denmark is a socialist paradise on earth.
Well, or at least that we have something to have out happines in.

Somehow our current goverment does not agree and consider bush a great mentor in both domestic and foreing policy.
Hope they get voted out before they wreck the country complety.

*or rather lots
**We have the most even wealth distribution on earth, the us have reached 3.world level and is getting worse. Hope for a New Deal.

*** You may call me a socialist
****This is not cherrypicking, honest.

[DanishDynamite]

Denmark is surely one of the countrys we all can learn from
Yes, it is!

[Darth Rotor]

Yes, it is!
For dairy products and decent beer, sure, for mountain climbing, maybe not so much. :cool:

Now, let's talk about ham, and why the Muslims aren't all in a furor over Danish Ham, eh?

[gtc]

My original post stands.

Any comments?

Yes. How can a society that likes extra salty licorice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiakki) be considered even close perfect?

[DanishDynamite]

For dairy products and decent beer, sure, for mountain climbing, maybe not so much. :cool:

Now, let's talk about ham, and why the Muslims aren't all in a furor over Danish Ham, eh?
Acknowledge the supremecy of Denmark and yes, we can change the subject if you so wish. :)

[DanishDynamite]

Yes. How can a society that likes extra salty licorice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiakki) be considered even close perfect?
See above.

[applecorped]

mmmmmmmmmmm, danish.....

[DC]

mmmmmmmmmmm, danish.....

your new avatar makes your "right side" far more frightening ;)

[Donal]

i am really offended


could you pls devine

Aryian, Germans, Helvetii

You shouldn't get me started.

I find it funny that you are harping on that line rather than all of the biased and unfounded tripe he spouted.

[applecorped]

your new avatar makes your "right side" far more frightening ;)

it is! :D

[Mobyseven]

A place with a make up like

German 65%, French 18%, Italian 10%, Romansch 1%, other 6%

I just find it amusing that someone from a country whose population is overwhelmingly 4 kinds of white is trying to lecture Americans about how to handle ethnic diversity.

Whoa. That's dumb.

[D'rok]

My original post stands.

Any comments?

That most competitive thing is for the EU only.

Congrats on ranking #14 on the UN Human development index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

You did ask for comments. :p

[lionking]

That most competitive thing is for the EU only.

Congrats on ranking #14 on the UN Human development index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

You did ask for comments. :p

Now that's the type of ranking system I can live with. Australia number three to two countries perpetually covered in snow.:)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Disagree with reservations...

I'd have to say that anyone that agrees with the OP's title has never been outside the US before.

...but I've not only been outside the U.S., I've lived outside the U.S., I'm going to be contrairian and change my response to agree then. :p

Disagree. The beer sucks.

Wrong. Do not confuse our mass market lagers with all the varieties of beer that are produced here. Prohibition set quality beer production back 50 years.

Americans built the Grand Canyon and the roads to it.

Lie! Everyone knows the Flood created the Grand Canyon.

The US has adapted this "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude, suppressing any critical sounds as "unpattriotic". This black and white thinking and polarizing of issues is detrimental to sceptic views and critical thinking.

No. One segment of our society has adopted a jingoistic militaristic cheauvanistic attitude. Unfortunately they were able to get their political representatives into national office for the last 8 years. That is not "The U.S." or truly representative of our foreign policy... there's hardly any talk of "Freedom fries" or "Old Europe" any more even amongst that segment.

Acknowledge the supremecy of Denmark and yes, we can change the subject if you so wish. :)

Claus...

[DC]

You shouldn't get me started.

I find it funny that you are harping on that line rather than all of the biased and unfounded tripe he spouted.

well actually i found the post from that "aryan" poster so inacurate that i postet a comment and tryed to hustle him down from his high swiss horse.

Especially the point about Bigotry, i remebered him on our own bigots in Switzerland.

I have alot points i can point out, to show that we are not perfect nor even close to perfection. But that we are an Aryan stronghold, is not on that list, but if we indeed are a stronghold or Aryans, well i would like to know.

Or do you see the USA as a half stronghold of Aryans? Alot of that white folks there.....

[shuttlt]

Can we please agree what we mean by a 'perfect society', or argue about the definition. Unless this is this an ironic thread and I've missed the joke?

[Toke]

Can we please agree what we mean by a 'perfect society', or argue about the definition. Unless this is this an ironic thread and I've missed the joke?


A perfect society is a subjective thing we would never agree on.
It is much better to just argue and hope things clear up on the way as people reveal their ideal through their arguments.

You might have missed some of the jokes.

[DC]

I think a Human cannot reach perfection, and a group of humans, sure cannot reach perfection.

Indeed Perfection is subjective.

But we should take looks beyond of the borders of our countrys, take a look at countrys that do some things better. And try to work into that direction.

[Georg]

I think a Human cannot reach perfection, and a group of humans, sure cannot reach perfection.

Indeed Perfection is subjective.

But we should take looks beyond of the borders of our countrys, take a look at countrys that do some things better. And try to work into that direction.


Define "better" in a way everybody agrees. That´s as impossible as to define "perfect" in this context, I fear, because it is as subjective.

[DC]

Define "better" in a way everybody agrees. That´s as impossible as to define "perfect" in this context, I fear, because it is as subjective.

very true.

i ment it about subjects like, Waste and recycling, one can hardly argue that we dont need recycling and try to reduce waste.... oh wait.... yes one can :)

ok forget my last post :D

[D'rok]

Now that's the type of ranking system I can live with. Australia number three to two countries perpetually covered in snow.:)

With another one nipping at your heels!

[quarky]

Planet X has the worst countries. The cheerleaders on Planet X are hideous and clumsy.

[Cuddles]

Can we please agree what we mean by a 'perfect society'

Wales.


Except for the North Welsh, of course. And the mid and west can be a bit odd at times. And Cardiff and anything around there is basically English anyway. And obviously you want to stay away from the Valleys. And to be fair, there's an awful lot of townies and chavs in the wrong parts of Swansea.


OK, me.

[Francesca R]

The title of this thread was going pretty well as far as the first 7 words are concerned. Score 50% at least.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I would have to disagree as well. For one thing, perfection is subjective. Not everyone necessarily desires the same things in life. For another, to make such a statement implies one has experienced life in all countries (including those that are no more). I seriously doubt anyone has done this.

Damn, I was going to answer exactly this. Ok, I will use my post to reinforce yours. It is an unanswerable question. In philosophy there is an argument about some guy that believe that "London is nice", and then he goes to live in a poor area of a city, with awful neighborhoods and just hated it, just to know later than it was London, but he was told it was "Londres". Of course I will not get in to the details, but suffice to say that it is impossible to make (almost any claim) about such a complex thing as a society. You like/dislike discrete interactions with the changing concepts you have about what it is, but can't judge if it is "closest to perfection" than anything else unless you know every other place to the point of have lived in there and with a common ground to state what would be "perfection" regarding a society.

[Toke]

The danger of your argument is that it might impede an entertaining argument.

If you step far enough back to examine the basic conditions for peoples wiev of society, (we had something in high school history class about trusting the individual moral and sence) you might end up with a genetic component of trust in others.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

The danger of your argument is that it might impede an entertaining argument.

If you step far enough back to examine the basic conditions for peoples wiev of society, (we had something in high school history class about trusting the individual moral and sence) you might end up with a genetic component of trust in others.

Is this an answer to my post? Interesting, yes, I would believe that there is in definitive a genetic tendency to trust in other animals like us. More species share this gene of course, but not everyone.

[quarky]

Damn, I was going to answer exactly this. Ok, I will use my post to reinforce yours. It is an unanswerable question. In philosophy there is an argument about some guy that believe that "London is nice", and then he goes to live in a poor area of a city, with awful neighborhoods and just hated it, just to know later than it was London, but he was told it was "Londres". Of course I will not get in to the details, but suffice to say that it is impossible to make (almost any claim) about such a complex thing as a society. You like/dislike discrete interactions with the changing concepts you have about what it is, but can't judge if it is "closest to perfection" than anything else unless you know every other place to the point of have lived in there and with a common ground to state what would be "perfection" regarding a society.


You sound like the freak I was looking for.
Fore time travelers, and eternal energy-beings, and lucid dreamers and all, the nastiest countries might have a lot of draw.

From said perspective, we'd mostly be looking for some action, including violence and starvation.

The best country I was ever in, as a time travelor, was an un-named place with saber-toothed tigers and giant ground sloths. Unreal hunting! Animalistic sex! Amazing sunsets!

Its all about the intensity. If you've reincarnated ad nauseum.

[UnrepentantSinner]

What's the big deal about vacation time anyway? I get 120 hours or three weeks on my current schedule per year, but can't afford to go anywhere other than TAM so I sell the rest. This year I used 32 hours for TAM 6 and well sell the other 88 and get a nice little bonus check. I get plenty of time off on weekends already (unless I'm working overtime like I have the last couple of weeks).

[Angus McPresley]

I think of it this way.

America is the best country in the world. BY AMERICAN STANDARDS.

(Which are the BEST STANDARDS IN THE WORLD. (Again, by American standards.))

[Brendy]

Agree/disagree? Why or why not.

Disagree.

I know i'm late too this thread and i havent read all six pages

Why?

Genocide of Native Americans
Slavery

The history of the USA is not a good one

[lionking]

Disagree.

I know i'm late too this thread and i havent read all six pages

Why?

Genocide of Native Americans
Slavery

The history of the USA is not a good one

You might disagree with the OP (and most do) but I can't see what it has to do with history of the 19th century. Not too many nations have unblemished history. I know mine doesn't, but it does not change my opinion of it today.

[DanishDynamite]

That most competitive thing is for the EU only.

Congrats on ranking #14 on the UN Human development index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

You did ask for comments. :p
And I thank you for yours.

[DanishDynamite]

Acknowledge the supremecy of Denmark and yes, we can change the subject if you so wish. :)
Claus...
UnrepentantSinner, you have to admit that the OP of this thread was pretty provocative. I feel I just responded in kind.

[Toke]

UnrepentantSinner, you have to admit that the OP of this thread was pretty provocative. I feel I just responded in kind.

No need to explain yourself, it should be obvius to anyone that our country is superior to all.

[DanishDynamite]

No need to explain yourself, it should be obvius to anyone that our country is superior to all.
Well, of course it is, but sometimes it is wise to keep a low profile.

:)

[gumboot]

Let's talk about 'bigotry'. Bigotry is the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about. I am confident that well-designed studies will support the proposition that despite the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, the US remains among the most bigoted societies in the world. Much remains to be done.



It's funny that you claim this, and hold European countries in so much regard. Just the other day I read an interesting article about widespread institutionalised discrimination in Europe. France and Germany were particularly singled out for their abysmal treatment of ethnic minorities, but the pattern seems to be consistent throughout Europe.

Take a look at the ethnic make up of any European country, and then compare it to the ethnic make up of their members of parliament. You might be in for a shock. France first had a member of an ethnic minority in their parliament only a few years ago, and it created an enormous amount of contraversy.

How does the US compare with that? On February 25, 1870 Hiram Revels became the first black person sworn into US Congress, an event accompanied by rapturous applause from the visitor galleries. France, birthplace of Liberty, and it's lagging over a century behind the USA. Congratulations.

[Toke]

The unified list (commies) had a candidate last year who insisted on wearing a scarf and refused to shake hand with men. They lost half their votes on that. (religion is unpopular)

We had a new party, (new alliance) headed by an immigrant they got lots of votes then realiced that there was no party programme and split up.

[DC]

It's funny that you claim this, and hold European countries in so much regard. Just the other day I read an interesting article about widespread institutionalised discrimination in Europe. France and Germany were particularly singled out for their abysmal treatment of ethnic minorities, but the pattern seems to be consistent throughout Europe.

Take a look at the ethnic make up of any European country, and then compare it to the ethnic make up of their members of parliament. You might be in for a shock. France first had a member of an ethnic minority in their parliament only a few years ago, and it created an enormous amount of contraversy.

How does the US compare with that? On February 25, 1870 Hiram Revels became the first black person sworn into US Congress, an event accompanied by rapturous applause from the visitor galleries. France, birthplace of Liberty, and it's lagging over a century behind the USA. Congratulations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Janiak

our President of the Swiss National Council for 05/06

Polish origin and Homosexual

:)

[quixotecoyote]

The unified list (commies) had a candidate last year who insisted on wearing a scarf and refused to shake hand with men. They lost half their votes on that. (religion is unpopular)

I don't know if you were using that as an example of bigotry, but I don't see why people shouldn't take into account a candidate's religion and the degree of seriousness with which he/she adheres to it.

[Ron_Tomkins]

The USA is not a perfect society, but it's the closest there's ever been.

What is a "perfect society"?

[quarky]

where the smurfs live. Or that place on the cover of the Watchtower magazine that the Jehova's Witnesses leave at your place.

[The Atheist]

What is a "perfect society"?

Depends (http://huxley.net/bnw/index.html) on your perspective. (http://www.actioncatentertainment.com/amazonwomen.htm)

[Blackadder]

I think the USA is the most beautiful country in the world because it is so vast and has everything from swamps, deserts, plains, mountains etc etc.

These days I am watching the excellent Stephen Fry on the tele, visiting each and every state in a London taxi. Besides wonderfull stories about amazing people he also shows incredible landscapes, never ending.

Americans: never ever take your land for granted. You are very blessed by nature. Europe has greats spots of course, but we already wasted our lands for 2000 years or more. You only for 200 years.

Anyway despite all this I could never live in the USA. (unless I was a millionaire because money solves many of the problems I have with the USA)

I will end with: Ämerica is the perfect land but far from the perfect society

[DanishDynamite]

I think the USA is the most beautiful country in the world because it is so vast and has everything from swamps, deserts, plains, mountains etc etc.

These days I am watching the excellent Stephen Fry on the tele, visiting each and every state in a London taxi. Besides wonderfull stories about amazing people he also shows incredible landscapes, never ending.

Americans: never ever take your land for granted. You are very blessed by nature. Europe has greats spots of course, but we already wasted our lands for 2000 years or more. You only for 200 years.

Anyway despite all this I could never live in the USA. (unless I was a millionaire because money solves many of the problems I have with the USA)

I will end with: Ämerica i the perfect land but far from the perfect society
Thanks for the input of yet another braindead.

[DanishDynamite]

I don't know if you were using that as an example of bigotry, but I don't see why people shouldn't take into account a candidate's religion and the degree of seriousness with which he/she adheres to it.
I think they should. And when they are sure a candidate is truely alligned with their insanity, they should vote for that insanity.

[lionking]

Thanks for the input of yet another braindead.

And you wonder, with responses like this, why people do not treat you seriously.

[DanishDynamite]

And you wonder, with responses like this, why people do not treat you seriously.
Uh, it is responses like this which makes people take me seriously.

[quixotecoyote]

Uh, it is responses like this which makes people take me seriously.

My green ideas dance furiously, I'll have you know.

[DanishDynamite]

EGarrett, you started this thread.

Have you been subsequently enlightened? Your thoughts please.

[Mobyseven]

Now that's the type of ranking system I can live with. Australia number three to two countries perpetually covered in snow.:)

To be fair to the countries that beat us, they do have...what did we used to call that thing? Wet stuff, falls from the sky...?

[Damien Evans]

To be fair to the countries that beat us, they do have...what did we used to call that thing? Wet stuff, falls from the sky...?

Whisky?:D

[EGarrett]

Uh, it is responses like this which makes people take me seriously.No, lionking is right.

[Toke]

I don't know if you were using that as an example of bigotry, but I don't see why people shouldn't take into account a candidate's religion and the degree of seriousness with which he/she adheres to it.

No as an example of what problems minorities have in politics, religion is unpopular here.

[quixotecoyote]

No as an example of what problems minorities have in politics, religion is unpopular here.

I still don't understand. Are you saying their problems are a problem?

I'd have reservations about someone who proudly wore the trapping of repressive patriarchy. Even if she's gunning for power it makes me think she might not be so concerned about other people. Plus there's the whole Bushian 'god told me too' thing to worry about.

Now I haven't looked into her record. If she's hot **** as a politician, I'd change my mind, but she's given me a first impression.

But I'm still not seeing a problem. Anyone with a minority viewpoint will have issues where power comes from winning the majority.

[Toke]

I find it fair enough that she cost them alot of votes.
Our christian democrats are not in parlament at all.

[Georg]

What's the big deal about vacation time anyway? I get 120 hours or three weeks on my current schedule per year, but can't afford to go anywhere other than TAM so I sell the rest. This year I used 32 hours for TAM 6 and well sell the other 88 and get a nice little bonus check. I get plenty of time off on weekends already (unless I'm working overtime like I have the last couple of weeks).


No need to justify your situation, US. We Europeans don´t mind some understandable envy:).

[Ausmerican]

Lie! Everyone knows the Flood created the Grand Canyon.

Claus...

Xtian agitprop!
I live in Arizona where everyone knows how the Grand Canyon occured. Apparently a Scotsman dropped a quarter down a gopher hole.....legend says his descendants are still down there, digging, digging, searching....

[Darth Rotor]

Acknowledge the supremecy of Denmark and yes, we can change the subject if you so wish. :)
As soon as you invade France successfully, I'll consider it. ;)

(Didn't set the bar very high, did I?)

DR

(Vikings don't count, they were pre-Napoleon.)

[Darth Rotor]

Acknowledge the supremecy of Denmark and yes, we can change the subject if you so wish.

Claus...
US, consider yourself nommed for Pith. :D

DR

[Vic Vega]

Let's talk about 'bigotry'. Bigotry is the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about. I am confident that well-designed studies will support the proposition that despite the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, the US remains among the most bigoted societies in the world. Much remains to be done.

Yes, let's do talk about bigotry.

In countries all over Europe, black football players are greeted by fans making monkey noises and throwing banannas on the field.

This would NEVER happen in the US under any circumstance.

Why is that?

[King of the Americas]

IF, we are the greatest country EVER, and I am not saying we are...to me that is like being valedictorian at summer school.

We put people in prison for smoking pot, and moreover, we have THE largest prison population per capita...EVER.

Sure black people aren't slaves anymore, but women still aren't paid equally for doing the same jobs, and let's not even begin talking about 'civil rights for homosexuals'.

Our creeds and mottos suggest we are a land of the free, and that all 'men' are created equally, but we still have people in prison at Gitmo, who didn't get a trial or even a notion of justice.

Government of, by, and FOR, "the People" isn't here yet.

[Cuddles]

Yes, let's do talk about bigotry.

In countries all over Europe, black football players are greeted by fans making monkey noises and throwing banannas on the field.

This would NEVER happen in the US under any circumstance.

Why is that?

Because they don't play proper football over there?:duck:

[DC]

Yes, let's do talk about bigotry.

In countries all over Europe, black football players are greeted by fans making monkey noises and throwing banannas on the field.

This would NEVER happen in the US under any circumstance.

Why is that?

good point.

that is indeed a very ugly thing to see / hear.

Something that happened alot when i watched games of FC Basel. Even we had our own black player, Atuba. When a black player from the other team gets the ball, alot people started doing monkey noices.

I have the impression in football stadions there is alot racism.
Here in switzerland there are some groups that do fight racism in stadions with posters and such. Also the UK did that afaik. Dunno if it helped.


PS: Only one guy deserved to hear those noices.
http://www.humo.be/images/gorilla_kahn.jpg

[Safe-Keeper]

In countries all over Europe, black football players are greeted by fans making monkey noises and throwing banannas on the field.

This would NEVER happen in the US under any circumstance.

Why is that?More ethnic diversity in the US, I'd suppose. Norway has had a female Prime Minister, but I think it'll be a few years still 'til a non-white person gets the job.

[Ysidro]

I hate all your countries. I'm starting my own. The best nation in the world: Ysidroland!

None of you are invited.

OK, except kittynh, and hcmom, and Geek Goddess, and chillzero, and Hokulele, and... oh heck with it. If you're intelligent and you have breasts, you get in. No charge.

However, we have a strict "no tops" policy in the summer. We will also have be the happiest country on this planet as I'm the only one who counts when conducting demographic surveys. Go Ysidroland!

[PhantomWolf]

Now that's the type of ranking system I can live with. Australia number three to two countries perpetually covered in snow.:)

Hmmm, you saying that the best three countries all have issues locating liquid water?

[bigred]

Agree/disagree? Why or why not.

Please tell me this thread was started with sarcarm/trolling in mind.