Andromeda Galaxy??

[Always Free]

Who has viewed this galaxy unaided by binochs or telescope? Is it easy to see with naked eye or just too distant to bother?

If it is clearly visible, how would you describe it?

It's summer time here so I think it is still too light out to see it when it's above us. :)

[BillyJoe]

Look what I found googling for just SIX SECONDS! (http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m031.html)

Visible to the naked eye even under moderate conditions,

http://www.seds.org/messier/JpgSm/m31.jpg

(It doesn't look like that to the naked eye ;) )

regards,
BillyJoe.

[MRC_Hans]

Under reasonable viewing conditions, the Andromeda Galaxy can be seen as a hazy oblong light patch, its length is roughly 1/5 of the diameter of the moon. It is not usually visible in city areas, except on very clear nights.

Hans

[Always Free]

Hey Billy Joe, I could have found that picture in my book on the book shelf but I'm buggered if I could find a picture of what I ASKED FOR on google. LOL!

Thanks MRC_Hans, that's exactly the kind of description I was asking for;)

[scotth]

When I lived out in the High desert of Southern California, Andromeda was easily naked eye visible.

Now that I live in the Dallas, TX area, I haven't seen it in years.

The angular size of Andromeda as seen from Earth is about 3 degrees.

The angular size of the Moon is about 0.5 degrees. As you can see from this, Andromeda is roughly 6 times the visual size of the moon, but this doesn't tell the whole story. Without at least binocs to increase the light gathering power of my eyes, I generally only see the brightest middle third of Andromeda. The impression I am left with is a dim oval smudge that looks about as wide as the moon or a bit wider. Seeing the center 1/3 of Andromeda should be about twice as wide as the moon visually by the math. Subjectively, it never looked quite that wide to me.

One of the most amazing sights I have ever seen was Andromeda through a 24 inch dob scope someone brought out to a star party in Joshua Tree National Park (it was a National Monument then). With that many inches of objective and a very low magnification eyepiece, Andromeda was stunning. Even with the lowest power eyepiece the guy had, the scope had to be mvoed about a bit to see the whole thing. It was too large to fit in one field of view.

[Soapy Sam]

I'm pretty sure I saw it from my folks' home as a teenager back in the mid 70s, before the introduction of sodium street lights wiped out all viewing. I recall a very faint and very small patch, easy to lose if looked at directly, bigger, but very much fainter than any of the visible planets. (I have never definitely seen Mercury).

I was seeing it in the northern half of the sky from 56 degN latitude. Cassiopeia was the nearest easily recognisable constellation, and I think Pegasus.(I may be remembering wrongly. It's many years since I did any astronomy). If it's summer where you are, AF, are you sure it's visible at all? I assume you must be way south.

The Magellanic clouds might be a more accessible target.

[Crossbow]

Some years ago I checked the Guiness Book of World Records and the Andromeda Galaxy was listed as the most distant object (2.2 million ly) that one could see with the naked eye.

Can anyone validate this item?

Sorry, but I do not have a current copy of the book.

[scotth]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Some years ago I checked the Guiness Book of World Records and the Andromeda Galaxy was listed as the most distant object (2.2 million ly) that one could see with the naked eye.

Can anyone validate this item?

Sorry, but I do not have a current copy of the book.

Hows this?

http://www.ipinc.net/~paullund/distant.htm

This indicates 2.3 million ly, close enough if you ask me.

[Crossbow]

To: scotth

Thanks for the validation!

You are H*lla Cool!

:D

[scotth]

Originally posted by Crossbow
To: scotth

Thanks for the validation!

You are H*lla Cool!

:D

Anytime!

[Hominoidea]

Andromeda is one of the first thing I look up at night sky when I'm visiting my folks. With almost no light pollution the scenery is spectacular.

Crossbow, scotth:

I knew I had read an article where someone had seen even more distant object than Andromeda. And sure enough, google found it. Not something you can see just like that, but I think it deserves a mention.

From here (http://www.astropix.com/HTML/C_SPRING/M81.HTM)

M81, one of the great showpiece galaxies in the northern sky, is a grand-design spiral that forms a physical pair with irregular galaxy M82.

With a visual magnitude of 6.8, M81 is probably the farthest object ever seen with the unaided eye at a distance of 12 million light years.

Although this is a most difficult observation, it has been reported on several occasions, particularly by Brian Skiff of Lowell Observatory. He reported glimpsing it as a "threshold" object, detected only 5-10 percent of the time with optimally adapted averted vision under very dark skies at Anderson Mesa where stars down to magnitude 7.9 were visible to the unaided eye. This is no mean feat.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Hominoidea
Andromeda is one of the first thing I look up at night sky when I'm visiting my folks. With almost no light pollution the scenery is spectacular.

Which is one of those good news, bad news messages. Actually double bad news. Hominoidea is in Finland and almost no light pollution. Don't know about your light pollution but if it's summer where you're at you're a long way from Finland, and Andromeda is pretty far north. You probably need to be able to see Cassiopeia, and the Great Square to see Andromeda (M31). The Great Square has 2 arms coming off it that arc toward Cassiopeia. Andromeda is just off the arm that is closest to Cassiopeia about 2/3rds out the arm. The larger triangle of Cassiopeia points almost directly at M31.

Every year I camp out in the Chihuahua Desert for a couple of weeks over the Xmas holidaze. To see Andromeda with the naked eye it needs to be really clear or you have to know exactly where to look. But if it's clear enough it also means the milky way is brilliant. Once you find it it's incredible, because that one little fuzzy disk is equivalent to everything else you can see! It really helps put things in perspective.
That's the good news.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Always Free
Hey Billy Joe, I could have found that picture in my book on the book shelf but I'm buggered if I could find a picture of what I ASKED FOR on google. LOL! But I was answering your second question.....Originally posted by Always Free
Is it easy to see with naked eye or just too distant to bother? But it's okay, I wasn't expecting any thanks for my six second effort :cool: .
Perhaps I should have quoted your second question to make it clear :rolleyes: .

The picture was just a bonus - and it did come with an appropriate comment to make it crystal clear that I wasn't answering your other question.
Oh well.

[Always Free]

Huh?? LOL!

[Always Free]

BJ I do appreciate the effort but I thought you misunderstood what I was asking.

I was only wanting to know a naked eye description of this galaxy. To see if it was worth viewing without aids. But it still is a loverly pic;)

[Soapy Sam]

AF- just curiosity, but this has bugged me all week. What latitude are you on? Seems to me that M31 is way too far north for you to see right now from the southern hemisphere, (where it is summer right now).

[diddidit]

The best view I've had of Andomeda was sitting in a lounge chair on Seven Mile Beach on Grand Cayman around new years eve, early 1980s. I picked it up with just my eyes, and then found it with binocs. Didn't know what it was, but I happened to have a planisphere along on our family trip and IDd pretty easily. Here in Michigan, it's in the sky in the late evening in winter.

did

[Soapy Sam]

- again, a winter observation from what - about 20 degrees north?(I may be a bit off on that). I'm curious about how far south M31 can actually be seen.
It's pretty faint unless you are well away from light pollution: the further south we go, the closer it gets to the horizon, where faint objects are easy to lose in haze.
AF said it's summer right now, so I'm assuming he is probably in S.Africa or further south. (OZ/ NZ ?) It might be a very hard object to find unless he knows exactly where to look, obviously depending on his location and observation conditions. Maybe it's permanently below his effective horizon.
So far as I can see, all the reported sightings here are from the northern hemisphere. We may be providing misleading data. Depends on where AF is based.
Anyone here who has definitely observed it (naked eye or optics) from the southern hemisphere? What's the most southerly sighting we have?

[Soapy Sam]

Follow up to the above. Remote viewing indicates AF is probably in Melbourne. Consultation with the Bad Astronomer (facts his, errors mine) suggests M31 will be at max 14 degrees above the horizon at that latitude. So possible to see , (but I suspect very hard in town).

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
.... Remote viewing indicates AF is probably in Melbourne. Yes (see "The perfect Reply" in Banter), Always Free lives in Noble Park, a suburb of Melbourne (Victoria, Australia)

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
....M31 will be at max 14 degrees above the horizon at that latitude. So possible to see , (but I suspect very hard in town). Well, I live in the outer fringes of the eastern suburbs of Melbourne where gardens give way to bush.
In what direction exactly should I look?

thanks,
BillyJoe.

[Skeptoid]

According to my StarCalc (http://www.relex.ru/~zalex/main.htm) program, M31 is only above your horizon during the daytime this time of year. Check out StarCalc it's a cool freeware toy.

One of my favorite things about being in the Navy was the spectacular view of the night sky in the middle of the ocean. Since we were a military vessel, we ran with our exterior lights out. And as we were on the ocean, the night sky was a big upside down bowl. Words cannot describe how incredible it was.

When looking straight up, the number of visible stars was far greater than anything I have seen from land. And if we happened to be in phosphorescent seas, there would be these long green trails alonside the ship.

Beeeeeeauuuuutifullll!

[Oso]

Originally posted by Skeptoid
According to my StarCalc (http://www.relex.ru/~zalex/main.htm) program, M31 is only above your horizon during the daytime this time of year. Check out StarCalc it's a cool freeware toy.

Thanks for the link Skeptoid, I've been using Cartes Du Ciel. StarCalc seems both faster and more intuitive, especially for a causal user such as myself.

[Soapy Sam]

Quote from The Bad Astronomer-

"M31 is at 0 hours Right Ascension, so it's highest when the Sun is opposite the sky, at 12 hours. That happens in Septmber, so it's a spring object in Australia. That sounds right; I know it's starting to get low on the horizon here in California by sunset, and our seasons are opposite!"

[end quote]

There are several astronomical programs available that can be tailored to your location. Red Shift is the one I used to use and clearly need to reload when I get home.

A planisphere is a lot handier for back garden work over the barbie. Any science / astronomy/ telescope or good bookshop should have them- its a very low tech , plastic disc with a rotating cover that can be set to local time and shows what's visible in the sky.
M31 should be visible at best, low in the northern sky in September from where you are.

[Soapy Sam]

LukeT- One of my major regrets about drilling rigs is that they are always lit up like a Christmas Tree. It's impossible to see the night sky unless you can find a shady spot between containers. Being unable to take evasive action is occasionally a pain too. (eg in the Persian Gulf during the Iran / Iraq war when both sides shot at anything on radar.)

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Follow up to the above. Remote viewing indicates AF is probably in Melbourne. Consultation with the Bad Astronomer (facts his, errors mine) suggests M31 will be at max 14 degrees above the horizon at that latitude. So possible to see , (but I suspect very hard in town).

Hi Soapy Sam, sorry I haven't replied to you. Thanks for the info. I was sure the galaxy could be viewed from the south. I only looked briefly in my star chart book for the month of Feb. I knew it was still too light to see it here so I asked the original questions to get an idea of what it would look like when it became visible.
Thanks to everyone who gave their personal descriptions of Andromeda. I can't wait until September. (btw, I'm female);)

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Skeptoid
According to my StarCalc (http://www.relex.ru/~zalex/main.htm) program, M31 is only above your horizon during the daytime this time of year. Check out StarCalc it's a cool freeware toy.

Hi, I'm no computer expert but how do I download 'starcalc' so I am able to use it? I have Windows ME but I'm not sure what I should do? :confused:

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Always Free
btw, I'm female ;) Noble Park hey? :)

[Always Free]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Noble Park hey? :)

Yeah, does it ring a bell to you now?;)

[Skeptoid]

Originally posted by Always Free


Hi, I'm no computer expert but how do I download 'starcalc' so I am able to use it? I have Windows ME but I'm not sure what I should do? :confused:
You've never downloaded software from the internet? If that's the case, please PM me and I'll be glad to walk you through it via email.

[Soapy Sam]

Always Free-
Sorry about getting your sex mixed up, my remote viewing crystal ball has cataract. The download of the full Starcalc will take at least half an hour on a broadband link. Could be a lot more on a 56K modem. (That's with all the catalogs and add-ons).

I'd check out a planisphere if I were you- cheap, effective and (mirabile dictu!) no batteries!.

I managed to find install files for Redshift and set it up for Melbourne. It shows M31 due north at about 11 degrees elevation in mid September. You will need to get away from street lights. I would advise a pair of binoculars.
BillyJoe's place sounds good, but I'd take a baseball bat if I were you.;)

[Skeptoid]

The basic StarCalc is only 753KB. Less than 3 minutes on a 56k modem. The basic program is plenty good enough for a casual user. The only plug-in I have is the solar eclipse one. All plug-ins are individual d/ls that can be d/led when convenient, if desired.

[Soapy Sam]

Skeptoid-My time was for the whole schmoozle, add-ons and all. It's the catalogs that take the time. I assumed they were necessary and it was a quiet night at work, and it's a shame to let a perfectly good broadband link sit idle. It gets rusty. Now got the lot on the 64Mb Flashdrive. I'll try it out for interest to compare with "Redshift. "

[Skeptoid]

Yeah, I realize that your estimate was for the whole kit and kaboodle, I just didn't want to scare anyone away from it. It really is a good program, especially for freeware.

[Soapy Sam]

Indeed it is. I loaded it on the external hard drive and fired it up. It does not have quite the same polished appearance as Redshift (and my Redshift copy is 4 years old), but Starcalc certainly does the job. I was impressed by the ability to correct for atmospheric refraction and air temperature.Nice touch. In AF's case the extra 1.5-2 degree elevation difference might be crucial.

Yes. It's a very impressive piece of kit- as you say, especially at the price.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Always Free-
You will need to get away from street lights.....BillyJoe's place sounds good, but I'd take a baseball bat if I were you.;) :D :D :D

[Soapy Sam]

SKEPTOID- Took the Starcalc-enabled laptop up north this week and found a very dark spot near the west coast of Scotland. I used Starcalc to find M31, which it did very nicely. I could not see it with the naked eye, (my eyesight is lousy- without my glasses I would do well to find the full moon). Spotted it with low power binocs easily enough though.

Wish I'd had software like this when I was a kid. (And a computer you could move without a crane.)

[Always Free]

Soapy Sam, what did it look like to you?

[Skeptoid]

Soapy Sam,

Glad to hear that StarCalc worked well in the field for you. Viewing conditions here in southeast Wisconsin are very sh!tty due to light pollution from Chicago and Milwaukee. I'll definitely have to borrow a laptop for my next trip to the northwoods of Wisconsin, where the skies are really dark.

[Soapy Sam]

AF- The answer is "Not great". It surely does not resemble the wonderful spiral photograph. Basically it is a patch of faint haze, bigger than Jupiter, but very, very faint and diffuse. You don't so much see it as notice that something is there. A bit like having a smudge on the lens of your glasses. Without the binoculars I would see nothing at all. That said, younger eyes might make a big difference- though I was short sighted at thirteen.

On the same night, I saw The Pleiades, Jupiter, Saturn , Sirius (my favourite star) the Moon and had a good look at the nebula in Orion. All much more spectacular. Still, it was rather fun trying to explain to my good lady that the photons just stopped by my squinty eyes had been travelling since before Homo habilis chipped his first axe.

It was a long way to come, just to end up inside my imagination, but that's what universes are for, I suppose.

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
...Still, it was rather fun trying to explain to my good lady that the photons just stopped by my squinty eyes had been travelling since before Homo habilis chipped his first axe.

It was a long way to come, just to end up inside my imagination, but that's what universes are for, I suppose.

Forgive me for jumping into this thread without adding my own observations of M31, but Soapy you do know how to turn a phrase. Well done sir.

[bPer]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
AF- The answer is "Not great". It surely does not resemble the wonderful spiral photograph. Basically it is a patch of faint haze, bigger than Jupiter, but very, very faint and diffuse. You don't so much see it as notice that something is there. A bit like having a smudge on the lens of your glasses. Without the binoculars I would see nothing at all. That said, younger eyes might make a big difference- though I was short sighted at thirteen.

On the same night, I saw The Pleiades, Jupiter, Saturn , Sirius (my favourite star) the Moon and had a good look at the nebula in Orion. All much more spectacular. Still, it was rather fun trying to explain to my good lady that the photons just stopped by my squinty eyes had been travelling since before Homo habilis chipped his first axe.

It was a long way to come, just to end up inside my imagination, but that's what universes are for, I suppose.

Hi, I'm an amateur astronomer. Your description of M31 is bang on, but you may have degraded the experience by taking a laptop along. It was mentioned briefly in a quote earlier, but it bears repeating that you have to let your eyes adapt to the dark for the best results. Looking at a laptop will definitely ruin your dark adaptation, no matter how much you turn down the brightness or use software features to dim the image.

The best thing to use is a planisphere, a star chart (many are available online), or a print-out from a planetarium program like Red Shift or (my favorite) Starry Night. Illuminate it with a red-filtered dim flashlight (I use a variable-brightness LED light available at any hobby store that caters to the amateur astronomy market). You want a light that's only just useable once your eyes adapt. In that state, you'll see objects 2-4 times dimmer.

My personal favorite binocular target is the Pleiades (M45). Even in light-polluted suburbia, you can see it as a smudge. In binos, you can see the individual stars, and a hint of the gas cloud that is passing by these young stars. For those of you who watch Star Trek: TNG, I'm pretty sure that the object seen at the very beginning of the opening credits is supposed to be M45, or something inspired by it.

Clear skies!

bPer

Originally posted by bPer


Hi, I'm an amateur astronomer.

Clear skies!

bPer

Welcome to the forum! :)

[bPer]

Originally posted by sundog


Welcome to the forum! :)

Thanks!

Just thought I'd get my feet wet talking about something I know about. :)

bPer

Originally posted by bPer


Thanks!

Just thought I'd get my feet wet talking about something I know about. :)

bPer

Glad you were able to. If I waited for such an opportunity I'd STILL be waiting. :D

[Soapy Sam]

bPer.
Of course you're quite right about the light. I used to be quite a keen amateur as a kid and always used a planisphere, with a red filtered flashlight. The question that came up was comparing astronomical software. Skeptoid strongly endorsed Starcalc and I downloaded it out of curiosity. My field test was just a fun experiment to see if it would help someone like AF find M31. I was pretty impressed by it. Actually the moon was causing much more light pollution than the screen. The laptop does have additional advantages: You can get a better feel for the sky by adjusting the zoom factor, for instance. For a rookie, the program would be a very useful learning tool. There's a place for any tool that helps, especially at the start. I suspect though, it would only be a matter of time before I stepped on the computer while looking up. Could get costly.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

[bPer]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
bPer.
Of course you're quite right about the light. I used to be quite a keen amateur as a kid and always used a planisphere, with a red filtered flashlight.

Now that's the way to learn the skies. All too often, when my observing buddies and I set up a public session, we get kids dropping by who boast about their 'Go-To' telescopes. Those are automated scopes; you just dial in a target and it aims for you (assuming the target is above the horizon). They never learn the sky, and quickly get bored with the scope, and it ends up gathering dust. Too bad parents don't do a bit of research before forking out the big bucks. A planisphere, red light, binoculars and a good introductory book are way cheaper, and if Junior maintains his/her interest, then get some real advice on what scope to buy.

Actually the moon was causing much more light pollution than the screen.

Wow. Bright moon. In the crowd I hang with, anyone using a laptop has to do so inside an observing tent. Laptops simply put out too much light. Then again, we do our most serious observing at when the Moon isn't up, and even Venus and Jupiter are considered light pollution. :)

The laptop does have additional advantages: You can get a better feel for the sky by adjusting the zoom factor, for instance. For a rookie, the program would be a very useful learning tool. There's a place for any tool that helps, especially at the start.

Actually, as a rookie, I found the software confusing - I never could figure out what scale I was looking at. What really worked for me was an excellent book: Nightwatch by Terence Dickinson. He shows how to use you hands to measure rough angles in the sky, and how to use stars in known constellations like Ursa Major to point to other constellations. That made all the difference. All of a sudden, I understood the scale of what I was looking for, and a methodology for getting around the sky, and everything fell into place.

Another excellent beginner's book is The Beginner's Observing Guide, published by the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada (http://www.rasc.ca). Not only does it cover the basics, it also has suggested targets for naked eye, binocular and small telescopes, broken down by month. An excellent learning tool, and only Cdn$14!

Welcome aboard, by the way.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm beginning to feel at home here.

bPer

[Soapy Sam]

I was one of Patrick Moore's many converts to stargazing.
Best of all is just to lie on a hill in the dark outside a tent and let the wonder of it all wash over you.

[Skeptoid]

Soapy Sam,

As stated earlier in the thread, you sure have a way of turning a phrase. What a description. :) Heh-heh, I always p!ss off my friends and family at out-of-doors gatherings at night ... I'm always looking up, their conversation drowned out by the music of the spheres.