In Favor of Torture

[noch1Narr]

I AM IN FAVOR OF TORTURE AS A FITTING PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE FOUND BEYOND A REASON ABLE DOUBT TO BE GUILTY OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES!

Before you jump out of your skin with outrage, let me present my arguments for this point of view. I realise that many/most of you will find much/everything wrong with what I believe in regard to this topic. That's fine, but PLEASE, do refrain from personal insults/attacks. You may find it hard to believe, but this dog barks fiercely on occasion, but has a thin skin underneath that facade!

---------------------------------
I have for a long time-and still do- opposed capital punishment, on the grounds that we humans (including entities like the government) have no right to take the life of another human being. Hence, I am not in favor of abortion (I know, cap.pun. & abortion belong in separate threads). I mentioned them merely to stress that I value human life.
It has bothered me for a long time that creatures like the late Timothy McVeigh or several 'nearby' specimen( Joseph Duncan and a Spokane serial killer who was convicted of having taken the life of many prostitutes several years ago) got off or are getting off "easy" by being executed for multiple horrible crimes against humanity. Aside from the fact that the theatre of their punishment starts with enormously costly and lengthy trials and series of appeals, they have or will ultimately pay for the unspeakable horror they have inflicted not just on their victims, but also on the many relatives and friends of those victims one time, namely with their own life! That strikes me as horrific and terribly unfair.
What I propose is the following: that special prisons be built, towers that extend underground exclusively, with single cells, which do not allow any form of communication between inmates. That these cells contain nothing but an unbreakable toilet and a single bunk, barely enough light to see (but not read by), and that eachcell is sound-proof; no heating or air-conditioning, yet enough ventilation in all cells to keep the inmates alive. NO outdoor exercises, NO visitors, NO radios,TVs,etc., NO chance for parole EVER!, no food other than stale white bread and water, with an occasional helping of raw veggies.
Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane
----------------------------------------
I have thought long and hard about the terrible horror inflicted by known/admitted/convicted criminals of the sort I briefly desribed above, creatures who have inflicted unspeakable horror onto their victims and the victims' survivors. What I propose will undoubtedly strike most/all of you as horrible as well, and yes! it is revenge I propose.
I do not believe that life is a bloody baseball game (three strikes and you're out!). I feel that the criminals I have alluded to/described above often get little more in the form of punishment than those who have committed manslaughter or who have been convicted of lesser crimes. That does NOT strike me as fair or civilised. I do NOT believe in trying to 'rehabilitate' those convicted of the most horrible crimes, because they have shown no mercy toward their victims.
Too often this "civilised society" hands out 'punishments' that show contempt for the value of the life/lives taken. I personally know of one killer, who in drunken rage, took the life of a police officer on the westside of this state, who was released from prison after a mere seven years, and who now lives in this community, a free man! By the way, I have no more contact with this individual.
I am aware that I have opened the proverbial can of beans with these my thoughts on this topic! I brought up all the peripheral info merely so you can (I hope) begin to understand (NOT necessarily agree with!) why I harbor such feelings of anger, frustration and violence, not just toward the perpetrators described above, but toward our "justice system".
PLEASE, do not reply with hate mail, or I will not return to this thread.
INSTEAD, do show me rationally why YOU think I am absolutely wrong, and most importantly what YOU propose as a fair-to-all-concerned alternative solution
or remedy!
I assure you all, that I wrote everything above with sincerety and out of disgust with the judicial status quo.

Michael

[JihadJane]

Great, let's start with George Bush 1 and 2.

[Fiona]

PLEASE, do refrain from personal insults/attacks. You may find it hard to believe, but this dog barks fiercely on occasion, but has a thin skin underneath that facade!

How do you reconcile that with the rest of your post?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

What is the point of doing so?

[Fiona]

I was just interested

[Tapio]

Would you pay to see someone tortured?

[linusrichard]

do show me rationally why YOU think I am absolutely wrong

It appears that the only goal you have stated for this plan is revenge, and I don't think you've given any reason why revenge is a good thing.

I assert that revenge helps nobody, and I think, in fairness, the burden should be on you to show how and why revenge is helpful.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I was just interested

Fiona. I knew that would happen. :o

My question was directed at that the OP. :D

[billydkid]

I think we tend to confuse two things - that which we might personally feel justified in doing - for example, I would have no problem torturing to death someone who murdered my son or with anyone else doing the same to someone who had harmed one of their loved ones similarly - and things we would condone being done under the aegis of government. Me, I would do it and accept the legal consequences. I can accept the fact that a military person may go what is beyond what is legally sanctioned in order, hypothetically, to save bunches of lives - that person accepting the consequences of his actions. The real problem arises when such behavior becomes legally sanctioned.

[Gate2501]

Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.


While I am a fan of somewhat violent recreational activites (MMA comes to mind), I think that this sort of thing could cause damage to society that could not be undone... The government allowing sadists to get their jollies whipping a prisoner (if he deserves it or not is not relevant), and expecting to punish the same sort of activities if that same sadistic guy or gal does something similar to their spouse?

I think that it would be a pat on the back to many mentally disturbed individuals.

Had a bad day at work? Wife made you mad? Head on down to the local correctional facility and brutally beat a stranger! Because beating another human being is something that can be purchased for fifty dollars!

-Its ****** demented.

[Bjorn]

What is a "proverbial can of beans"?

[Tricky]

My personal feeling is that penal systems should be for rehabilitation, not revenge. In extreme cases where it was clear that no rehabilitation was possible, I would permit the death penalty.

The only possible use in torturing someone, apart from schadenfreude, is to discourage others, but I believe it has been shown that these things don't really discourage people. A mind that is so twisted that it can commit a horrible crime is unlikely to be rational enough to worry about torture.

[Pardalis]

To deprive people of their freedom is enough punishment.

[Praktik]

Wow noch1narr - I don't want this to come off as a personal attack, but your "fantasy prison" system there doesn't seem all that much different from the town square medeival rituals of public torture. A more modern version of this can be seen in the Middle East with public stonings.

You do see how this fantasy of yours would be seen by others as a societal regression don't you?

[Mark6]

To deprive people of their freedom is enough punishment.
For some people it is a terrible punishment. For others it is no punishment at all. Gang members are often proud to have been in prison -- it is part of their street cred.

I am actually in favor of physical punishment, or public humiliation, for some minor crimes -- instead of prison. There is a saying "punishment must fit the crime" -- I say punishment must fit the criminal. To some macho tough street guy arrested for assault, a month of washing town hall windows while wearing French Maid outfit and high heels may be a much greater deterrent than a year in prison. To an "upstanding family man" who was caught stealing from his boss, a fitting punishment may be wearing a carboard sandwich for a couple months telling everyone who sees him what exactly he had done (and he'd be on YouTube a lot longer than that). Both punishments are much cheaper than prison, and do not run the risk of convict being knifed or raped.

[Edit] Just to be clear -- I find OP's idea an abomination.

[Modified]

What is a "proverbial can of beans"?

I've never seen a can of worms, but when you open a container of worms they generally don't cause much of a fuss. Beans would probably be even less troublesome. I say we change it to "open a can of bees".

[fuelair]

I AM IN FAVOR OF TORTURE AS A FITTING PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE FOUND BEYOND A REASON ABLE DOUBT TO BE GUILTY OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES!

Before you jump out of your skin with outrage, let me present my arguments for this point of view. I realise that many/most of you will find much/everything wrong with what I believe in regard to this topic. That's fine, but PLEASE, do refrain from personal insults/attacks. You may find it hard to believe, but this dog barks fiercely on occasion, but has a thin skin underneath that facade!

---------------------------------
I have for a long time-and still do- opposed capital punishment, on the grounds that we humans (including entities like the government) have no right to take the life of another human being. Hence, I am not in favor of abortion (I know, cap.pun. & abortion belong in separate threads). I mentioned them merely to stress that I value human life.
It has bothered me for a long time that creatures like the late Timothy McVeigh or several 'nearby' specimen( Joseph Duncan and a Spokane serial killer who was convicted of having taken the life of many prostitutes several years ago) got off or are getting off "easy" by being executed for multiple horrible crimes against humanity. Aside from the fact that the theatre of their punishment starts with enormously costly and lengthy trials and series of appeals, they have or will ultimately pay for the unspeakable horror they have inflicted not just on their victims, but also on the many relatives and friends of those victims one time, namely with their own life! That strikes me as horrific and terribly unfair.
What I propose is the following: that special prisons be built, towers that extend underground exclusively, with single cells, which do not allow any form of communication between inmates. That these cells contain nothing but an unbreakable toilet and a single bunk, barely enough light to see (but not read by), and that eachcell is sound-proof; no heating or air-conditioning, yet enough ventilation in all cells to keep the inmates alive. NO outdoor exercises, NO visitors, NO radios,TVs,etc., NO chance for parole EVER!, no food other than stale white bread and water, with an occasional helping of raw veggies.
Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane
----------------------------------------
I have thought long and hard about the terrible horror inflicted by known/admitted/convicted criminals of the sort I briefly desribed above, creatures who have inflicted unspeakable horror onto their victims and the victims' survivors. What I propose will undoubtedly strike most/all of you as horrible as well, and yes! it is revenge I propose.
I do not believe that life is a bloody baseball game (three strikes and you're out!). I feel that the criminals I have alluded to/described above often get little more in the form of punishment than those who have committed manslaughter or who have been convicted of lesser crimes. That does NOT strike me as fair or civilised. I do NOT believe in trying to 'rehabilitate' those convicted of the most horrible crimes, because they have shown no mercy toward their victims.
Too often this "civilised society" hands out 'punishments' that show contempt for the value of the life/lives taken. I personally know of one killer, who in drunken rage, took the life of a police officer on the westside of this state, who was released from prison after a mere seven years, and who now lives in this community, a free man! By the way, I have no more contact with this individual.
I am aware that I have opened the proverbial can of beans with these my thoughts on this topic! I brought up all the peripheral info merely so you can (I hope) begin to understand (NOT necessarily agree with!) why I harbor such feelings of anger, frustration and violence, not just toward the perpetrators described above, but toward our "justice system".
PLEASE, do not reply with hate mail, or I will not return to this thread.
INSTEAD, do show me rationally why YOU think I am absolutely wrong, and most importantly what YOU propose as a fair-to-all-concerned alternative solution
or remedy!
I assure you all, that I wrote everything above with sincerety and out of disgust with the judicial status quo.

Michael
You clearly have not read any of my posts on this topic. You are overly kind to them - though I would go with yours as an acceptable alternative. For any who admit what they did, verify the hiding/disposal locations of ALL of their victims - including any still alive at the time of their capture (their lawyer to share in the punishment if same encourages them in any way not to accept this requirement hoping to get a "deal" for them).

[Seismosaurus]

Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

Just in passing... after enough repeated beatings like that a person's skin builds an insensitivity to pain, you know. And I've met people who would absolutely love to live the life you are describing...

My real question is this. What do you propose to accomplish with this? What's the point?

[Bikewer]

Historically, when public torture and execution were part of the judicial system of various cultures, it apparently had very little effect on crime. The Romans famously performed public executions and torture of criminals right up to the moment the Goths came knocking on the gates...
The British, famous for their public punishments, likewise had no lack of criminals to so abuse.

Criminals, as more modern science-based studies have shown, tend to be impulse-driven individuals who have difficulty connecting their actions with consequences "down the road".

The "most heinous" individuals (arguably serial killers and psychopathic sadists) are insane, and are under the influence of powerful compulsions. Nothing will deter these individuals, so we are left with the rather base idea of revenge by subjecting them to torture if captured.

[Flo]

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane

d) will make most people consider you no better than the criminals you intend to treat that way.

[Darth Rotor]

Response to the OP:

A bullet to the head is cheaper. Are you trying to pull a George Carlin moment, and raise enough money to retire the national debt by selling subscription to your Torture TV and Pay Per View floggings?

DR

[GStan]

I AM IN FAVOR OF TORTURE AS A FITTING PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE FOUND BEYOND A REASON ABLE DOUBT TO BE GUILTY OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES!

<snip>

What I propose is the following: that special prisons be built, towers that extend underground exclusively, with single cells, which do not allow any form of communication between inmates. That these cells contain nothing but an unbreakable toilet and a single bunk, barely enough light to see (but not read by), and that eachcell is sound-proof; no heating or air-conditioning, yet enough ventilation in all cells to keep the inmates alive. NO outdoor exercises, NO visitors, NO radios,TVs,etc., NO chance for parole EVER!, no food other than stale white bread and water, with an occasional helping of raw veggies.
Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane

<snip>

Michael

D) All of the above.

It sounds to me like you have had someone close to you victimized by this type of criminal. If so, sincerest condolences, but this is not the answer. Your sanctioning the legalization of the very thing that enrages you the most about these criminals; they showed no mercy.

I am totally in favor of severely limiting outside exposure, human contact, access to information, and most importantly, never getting out. But I also like the prospect of subtle emotional torture as opposed to physical violence.

-Find out inmates favorite foods and feed those meals to the guards, making certain the inmates can smell the goodies while they are eating peanut butter and sprout sandwiches
-Find out what music they like; play music for them, but only the first ten seconds of all their favorite songs; play yoko ono songs all the way through
-Get a sample of their mother's handwriting and periodically craft letters in mom's handwriting reminding inmates what a$$ hats they are.
-Give them Playboy Mags to read, but with all the pictures cut out

That's the kind of prison reform I want to see. And for those who want to pay $50 to flog someone, check the personal ads, as there are people who are probably willing to let you do that.

[noch1Narr]

Wow!
Shortly after posting the OP yesterday, I went into hiding, i.e. I turned off the internet, realizing that I had bitten off more than I can chew, so to speak. So, if any of you asked questions and did't receive a reply from me, now you know why.

First let me clear up several points that were very confusing/baffling to you:

that can of beans: 'modified' correctly identified what meaning I had intended to convey. Thank you!

Fiona and others: yes, I am aware that there is a contradiction between claiming on the one hand to have a thin skin and on the other hand proposing a brutal form of punishment! All I can offer as a response is that I am fairly sensitive (especially to criticism/rejection) and that I was am sincere in my fiercely angry attitude toward perpetrators of the most heinous crimes.
This creature Joseph Duncan, to whom I referred, is an individual who murdered a woman and her boyfriend as well as one of the woman's three young children in nearby Northern Idaho a few years ago. He then kidnapped the other two youngsters and went camping in Idaho and Western Montana with them, eventually killing the young boy, and he apparently regularly sexually abused the little girl (about 6 years old). He was finally captured while having breakfast at a
fast food establishment and he has confessed to all the murders and the sexual abuse of the girl. His trial went on seemingly forever and he finally was sentenced to death on three federal counts, then had to stand trial in Idaho state court for the remaining charges (kidnapping & murder); then apparently California authorities were able to connect this creature to an unsolved murder in that state, and they in turn are waiting for their turn to try this individual. By the time all trials will be over a period of over 2 years will have elapsed, millions of tax dollars will have been spent doing that, several attorneys will have received a considerable amount of money for their services, and then, years from now, after all appeals will have been taken care of, this creature will likely finally be executed.
This individual will have lead a relatively comfortable several years in jail, with amenities like TV, radio, telephone access, newspaper access. library access, heat, airconditioning, food prepared & provided free, likely some social interaction with other inmates, etc. So his freedom has been somewhat restricted and he can very likely expect to be executed for the four (possibly five) murders and for the kidnapping & sexual abuse of that little girl....And most of you think that THAT is enough punishment for the unfathomable horrors he inflicted on his victims and their relatives & friends? THAT is suppoed to be a civilised reaction/punishment? Does that strike you as fair?
And you wonder why on earth I virtually scream my anger and outrage at such an obcene lack of judicial proportion?
Where on earth is your empathy for the victims?
Most of you seem more intent on preserving society's image of behaving in a civilised manner!
Some of you stated that revenge serves no purpose, nobody benefits from it...What I propose is NOT intended to benefit anyone!!! We're not talking about some ****** accounting problem!
No, 'tapio', I would not pay, nor should anyone pay to SEE such punishments! I'm not interested in shaming these creatures, they're far beyond any effect that such public shaming might have on them!
I want those creatures like Duncan to live until they're 99 years old! I want them to suffer every day they are alive. I would grant them just enough medical care to keep them alive! They ought not have any opportunity to 'opt out', i.e. to commit suicide!
I am convinced that there ARE many studies that have indicated/proven that punishment does not deter. My response:
other than a partial/relative restriction of an individual's freedom, what kind of 'punishment' are we talking about here as it exists now? Doesn't incarceration nowadays
not include comfortable bunks & cells, heating, air-conditioning, free preparation and provision of food, availability/access to TV, radio, newspapers, library materials, telephones, conjugal visits,
recreational activities, hot showers? Do inmates have to worry about earning enough money to afford such amenities? Do they have to worry about paying taxes, paying for utilities?
It does NOT suprise me that the studies referred to do not support the notion that punishment does not deter potential criminals!!! Hey, to some of those individuals life in prison is a heck of a lot more secure/comfortable than life on the outside.
Do you still wonder why I posted my proposal?
Gate2501-you either misunderstood what I had proposed or you intentionally made a mockery of it with your caricatures of potential reactions! I did/do not propose public spectacles.
The availability of buying a ticket to personally inflict a prescribed punishment on the Joseph Duncans would be a way of venting one's anger/outrage for the horrible crimes that such creatures have (beyond any doubt) committed.
I doubt that strapping as I propose (multiple leather straps fastened to a handle) would toughen the criminal's skin, especially if administered onto bare skin, six or seven days a week.
Darth Rotor-Yes, I complained about the cost and length of trial(s) for a creature like J.Duncan- I am outraged why such costly theatrics should be done in cases when the guilt of the criminal has already been established. Yes, a bullet would be cheaper, but you seem to not have considered that I do not think that any human being or society has the right to take another human life! And NO! I was not thinking of what George Carlin had proposed.
My proposal is indeed very crude in details and stipulations, more intelligent persons would undoubtedly be able to reach more amenable provisions.
Only a few of you seem to have understood/shared to a degree my ourage at the insufficiencies of the current state of our judicial system.
Others were more interested in proving me wrong or insane.
I myself am NOT interested in proving any of you wrong. I am NOT interested in making a mark, so to speak. I feel very strongly that the most heinous crimes fin no relatively fair and just punishments! Timothy McVeigh was responsible for the death of 169 human beings, for the injury (physical, emotional & psychological) of thousands more. He was, after lengthy legal maneuvers, executed. Does the accumulation of his horrendous crime not warrant a more severe punishment than that of Josph Duncan??? The discrepancy between those two crimes and punishments (execution) alone is reason enough to oppose the death penalty!
A human life in this country is not valued very highly. Many feel the life of an unborn human being is worth more than the life of a murderer. Each state in this country does not place the same value on a human life. I think that is outrageous and obscene!
I feel very strongly that perpetrators of the most heinous crimes should be severely punished, and that there ought to be some sort of fair gradations between punishments. The death penalty does not differentiate between someone who killed on person and somone like McVeigh. To me one method of differentiating between punishments for those most horrible crimes would be physical punishment/torture, because one CAN somewhat differentiate in that regard.
Billydkid- you are correct in pointing out that my proposal has many legal ramifications and will therefore never be adopted by society.
Praktik--if you consider the status of our legal system, especially in regard to punshments-progress, then yes! my proposal could logically be considered 'regression'!
I for one do not consider the punishments handed out for the most heinous crimes 'progress'. I have tried sincerely (and likely failed again!) to explain my reasons.
JihadJane--I don't know if you were serious with your comment;
I fully agree if you were! Those two (and others) are war criminals and ought to be tried as such!
Tricky--unlike you, I do NOT believe in the rehabilitation of perpetrators of the most heinous crimes, whether they are found to be insane or sane in the eyes of the law! And NO! I do not consider 'Schadenfreude' a motive for my proposal of torture, and I hope I have made clear why I for one consider the 'proofs' that there exists no correlation between punishment and deterrence completely wrong.
And for all of you who still cannot understand why I proposed what I did: I want the criminals of the category of McVeigh & Duncan to suffer for their horrible deeds, and do so for as many years as possible. NO! that will not undo the horrors committed. And NO! I for one do not think that society would be judged to have regressed or to be insane or uncivilised.!
When extreme criminals enjoy the same or more rights/privileges than law biding citizens,then THAT is to me a sign of a sick society.
As to my thoughts or positions, I feel that my freedom from superstition (=organised religion) allows me to reason and still consider myself an ethical human being.
This post has exhausted me, drained me emotionally.
I will return to this section tomorrow and try to digest and reply to further comments/condemnations by you.
One more time: I assure you that my thoughts/positions are sincere; they are NOT meant to offend or upset you, although they apparently have done so already!
For that I am truly sorry!
Michael

[Praktik]

I get the feeling that noch1narr is a big fan of 'Dexter'.... ;)

[Piscivore]

I'm not certain I'm above torture myself as a option should anyone sufficently wrong me, but it has no place as a societal institution.

[Maus]

If someone is deemed incapable of existing in society, then remove them using the fewest resources possible. Why spend so much energy punishing people? Punishment is more a display of power than an actual deterrent. By utilizing forms of punishment you are really just reinforcing your power over others and not actually molding behavior.

-Maus

[IchabodPlain]

This individual will have lead a relatively comfortable several years in jail, with amenities like TV, radio, telephone access, newspaper access. library access, heat, airconditioning, food prepared & provided free, likely some social interaction with other inmates, etc. So his freedom has been somewhat restricted and he can very likely expect to be executed for the four (possibly five) murders and for the kidnapping & sexual abuse of that little girl....And most of you think that THAT is enough punishment for the unfathomable horrors he inflicted on his victims and their relatives & friends? THAT is suppoed to be a civilised reaction/punishment? Does that strike you as fair?


Fairness =| Justice.

[Fiona]

It is a mystery to me why someone who is, by his own account, sensitive to criticism and rejection has gone out of his way to seek it. You are clearly aware of the likelihood of such responses, yet this is important enough to you to post it here. Why is that? Do you get a strong personal satisfaction from dwelling on just how best to hurt other people? I ask because you seem to have spent a lot of time thinking about this. Perhaps you do like the idea (many people do) but you feel you must justify this by confining the satisfaction of those desires to those whom you feel "deserve it"?

Perhaps you will take this as a personal attack. It is not: it is a sincere enquiry. But you may feel my sincerity is not enough to make my question admissable? If you do you might want to think about this again

[Soapy Sam]

I'm always a bit nervous about torture . It may be appropriate punishment for the guilty, but what effect does it have on the torturer?

I see nothing wrong with punishment as a goal in a legal system though- and corporal punishment and humiliation can certainly have a deterrent effect for others as well as inducing a reluctance in the punished to come back for more.
Requiring a criminal to donate a kidney , or two, would seem like a not unreasonable reparation of certain debts.
From one point of view it might be said that any legal / penal system which has repeat offenders at all, has failed to achieve what it is supposed to achieve.
Most simplistically, no one who was ever hanged ever committed another crime. 100% track record.
There are other criteria of course.

[fuelair]

Most simplistically, no one who was ever hanged ever committed another crime. 100% track record.
.
And here, in a nutshell, is the heart of the Terminal Education Program (R):
there is zero recidivism in criminals who are terminated. They have finally learned not to repeat their acts.:) (I freely admit to being a co-developer of this program with a fellow teacher in Hillsborough County Florida in ca1982 or 3):)

[Double Pounder]

whatever happened to sending criminals to Australia?

[Soapy Sam]

They retaliated by sending Soap Opera actors.

[Cainkane1]

Child rapist murderers should be hung with a short piece of piano wire.

[JimBenArm]

Child rapist murderers should be hung with a short piece of piano wire.
You are obviously a bleeding heart liberal who is soft on crime!

[Soapy Sam]

Is a child rapist murderer one who murders child rapists, or...
and why piano wire, specifically?

[JimBenArm]

Is a child rapist murderer one who murders child rapists, or...
and why piano wire, specifically?
I read it as a child who rapes and murders. Nuthin' more evil.
The piano wire? That's one of those pinko liberal things. Gives them something to play a jolly tune on while you're strangling them. Much too soft! Should be some kinda baling wire without any tonal qualities they can use to amuse themselves with during their last seconds breathing my Godly air!

[luchog]

I'd like to see the reintroduction of flogging.

Every Thursday, round at my place.

[Mark6]

I'd like to see the reintroduction of flogging.

Every Thursday, round at my place.
If you are okay with willing victims, it's not difficult. Even relatively unwilling will do it if you pay them enough.

[Flo]

Fiona and others: yes, I am aware that there is a contradiction between claiming on the one hand to have a thin skin and on the other hand proposing a brutal form of punishment! All I can offer as a response is that I am fairly sensitive (especially to criticism/rejection) and that I was am sincere in my fiercely angry attitude toward perpetrators of the most heinous crimes.

In fact, you are not looking for justice, but for a way to assuage your anger ...


Most of you seem more intent on preserving society's image of behaving in a civilised manner!

Not just its image, but its actual behavior, whenever possible.

[Ladewig]

Wow!
Shortly after posting the OP yesterday, I went into hiding,

I know that this is an emotional topic and that passion causes people to want to write quickly, but please spend some time organizing your thoughts. Your lengthy stream of consciousness posts are hard to follow.

[Cainkane1]

Is a child rapist murderer one who murders child rapists, or...
and why piano wire, specifically?
It strangles and slowly decapitates the murderer at the same time.

[Bikewer]

It was said that Hitler specified piano-wire hanging for the survivors of the cabal/bomb plot against him. He reputedly filmed the executions for future viewing....

"piano wire" is nothing special, the industry calls it "music wire". It's just a finished, high-tensile strength steel wire in a variety of gauges. Popularly used for garrotes, as well.

[quarky]

There is some mounting evidence that psychopaths are insane, and that their signature lack of empathy can be traced to brain anomolies.

So, one reason to keep the Ted Bundys alive would be to study their brain activity.

[shuttlt]

What has fair got to do with it? If my son was murdered, I'm not sure that anything could be done to make it seem fair.

A minor point, but in this brave new world of state sponsored revenge, what would happen if it transpired that somebody had been wrongly convicted? Would they be entitled to some kind of justice? How would you make it fair for them?