The mysterious "high level freemasons"

[LightinDarkness]

Every time I read a woo article on freemasonry or involve myself in woo discussions about freemasons, I am always told that freemasonry is being manipulated by the "elites" (whoever they are) to bring about the New World Order (whatever that is - no one is able to tell me exactly what it means).

I am then told that because I am a mason but have never seen any evidence for these claims, that its because I am a low level mason and that only high level masons are involved in these nefarious deeds. When I point out that there is no such thing as a high or low level mason, since its the point of the fraternity that all meet on the level, I am told that the high level masons conceal themselves from all of us low level masons who don't know were low level masons.

So, I pose a question to our resident woos - can you explain to me what a high level mason is - what defines it? Who is a high level mason currently?

[LightinDarkness]

Oh, and for all my fellow non-woos, any thoughts on why CTs go down this sort of path in order to convince themselves their freemason theories are right? Is it simply the CT desire to posit non-falsifiable theories or something more?

[godofpie]

That information is classified. You do not have the required clearance. Now move along.:pythonfoot:

[Horatius]

Oh, and for all my fellow non-woos, any thoughts on why CTs go down this sort of path in order to convince themselves their freemason theories are right? Is it simply the CT desire to posit non-falsifiable theories or something more?



Well, you're either in on it, or a dupe. They don't even consider the possibility that they're wrong.

[JoeyDonuts]

Well, you're either in on it, or a dupe. They don't even consider the possibility that they're wrong.

Absolutely.

"Our energy is so pure and positive, our struggle so justified, that we can't be wrong even if we are."

"Therefore you are either blind to the conspiracy going on right over your head, or you are a NWO/Masonic shill."

In other words, 2+2=Rothschilds and thermite. It's so simple! Why can't you see it?

[dudalb]

Being a "High Level Mason" is like being a "High Level Member of a Bowling League" on the "Sinister Level".

[Ysidro]

Yeah, it's just a way for them to never be wrong. Of course, it makes me wonder how all these non-masons know all the secrets your poor low-level Freemasons don't know. I guess you're just brainwashed or something. Go watch Youtube videos for the next week and report back on how Freemasonry is a satanic plot to take over the Federal Reserve and you'll be forgiven. ;)

[Liszt]

So, I pose a question to our resident woos - can you explain to me what a high level mason is - what defines it? Who is a high level mason currently?

no, but I can explain what "woo" means.

woo (w)
v. wooed, woo·ing, woos
v.tr.
1. To seek the affection of with intent to romance.
2.
a. To seek to achieve; try to gain.
b. To tempt or invite.
3. To entreat, solicit, or importune.
v.intr.
To court a woman.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/woo

[LightinDarkness]

My favorite part of this particular woo conspiracy as that they can also never tell me what the difference between a high level and low level mason is. Magically, it seems that high level masons always start 1 degree above whatever degree you are, even though degree numbers don't indicate power or authority. For example, if I say I am a 32nd degree scottish rite mason I am told that high level masons are 33 and "above" (even though the 33rd is the highest honoary degree). If I say I am a master mason then its the 4th degree and above.

Also, I have noted that the conspiracy theorists always think the Scottish Rite is behind the infamous high-level masons, and they completely ignore the York Rite or the Shrine - probably because they don't have sexy high number degrees.

[Oliver]

I remember a Member who is a Freemason. Maybe he will answer the
OP's question, but I don't recall his nick in here...

[Old Bob]

Oliver, love your logo it's got it all. What level are you? Left shoulder, right shoulder forehead? would you respond to that. Are you called "The living Dead" 33 % which is 3- 11-ens for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Don't mean to pick on you as I know you are sworn to silence. I think masonic ritual is linked to sun god worship and is a cult. Your logo, three lots of three (trinity) plus blue and red mason colours, beautiful.

[JoeyDonuts]

Hey Old Bob...you know you're the only one that's managed to figure out out, right?

That means it falls on your shoulders to get the word out there.

You should probably stop exposing the conspiracy to people who are already involved in it, and just go ahead and make yourself a sandwich sign. Then get yourself a nice heckling spot in a public area. Once you're good and set up, yell the truth at the top of your lungs, brother. Just make sure you move every 15 minutes. This will give the Masonic Satellite network less time to get a fix on your location and vaporize you with a DEW from outer space.

Good talk. Keep fightin' that good fight!

[gtc]

Oliver, love your logo it's got it all. What level are you? Left shoulder, right shoulder forehead? would you respond to that. Are you called "The living Dead" 33 % which is 3- 11-ens for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Don't mean to pick on you as I know you are sworn to silence. I think masonic ritual is linked to sun god worship and is a cult. Your logo, three lots of three (trinity) plus blue and red mason colours, beautiful.

I don't think Oliver is a mason.

His avatar (the picture under his name) is from the US election. It is the symbol of the Republicans under the letter O in the colours of the American flag. It indicates that he used to support a Republican candidate for President but switched to supporting Obama.

[fromdownunder]

Old Bob, dod you ever meet a Cosnpiracy Theory that you did not fall in love with?

Norm

[Uncle Vanya]

It's because conspiracy nuts demand everything to be transparent. If a meeting is held behind closed doors, it is automatically assumed that whatever transpired at the meeting is automatically sinister and related to world domination.

Executive board meeting for a major corporation held behind closed doors? That company is evil and is trying to pull another Enron.

Only masons allowed in mason meetings? Clearly they're plotting the downfall of mankind!

Bohemian Grove? You better believe that the movers and shakers there are talking about how to overthrow that whole pesky "democracy" business.

I could go on, but I won't, it's making me think silly thoughts. Point is, these folks assume that secrets are a bad thing, whether we're talking about masons or the government or corporations or crazy one legged Joe from down the street (where did he lose that leg, he won't tell anyone and he gets uneasy when anyone asks about it, maybe he's a mason... hmmmm....).

[JoeyDonuts]

I haven't told anyone the secret to my chili powder recipe.

I must be up to something sinister.

[gtc]

Just because it doesn't mean that you are up to no good doesn't mean that you aren't up to no good.

[Travis]

So they're the ones that rob cavefish of their sight!

[JoeyDonuts]

Just because it doesn't mean that you are up to no good doesn't mean that you aren't up to no good.

Yeah. My chili recipe is known to cause hydrostatic shock and massive intestinal prolapse in people not used to spicy food.

[gtc]

You are a credit to Ra.

[brodski]

no, but I can explain what "woo" means.

woo (w)
v. wooed, woo·ing, woos
v.tr.
1. To seek the affection of with intent to romance.
2.
a. To seek to achieve; try to gain.
b. To tempt or invite.
3. To entreat, solicit, or importune.
v.intr.
To court a woman.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/woo

ah, do you also believe that a sinister high level mason is a left handed stone worker on an access tower?

You may also want to look for a definition with an (n) rather than a (v) next time- context counting for something and all...

[JoeyDonuts]

You are a credit to Ra.

Yep. The chili is just phase one.

Phase II is to steal every left sock from every laundromat in existence.

[Oliver]

Oliver, love your logo it's got it all. What level are you? Left shoulder, right shoulder forehead? would you respond to that. Are you called "The living Dead" 33 % which is 3- 11-ens for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Don't mean to pick on you as I know you are sworn to silence. I think masonic ritual is linked to sun god worship and is a cult. Your logo, three lots of three (trinity) plus blue and red mason colours, beautiful.


Is this a joke? :D

First: I live in Germany and the vast majority thinks that secret societies
are BS. Secondly, the Logo is an official Obama Campaign Logo, namely
"Rebublicans for Obama". Concerning the rest of your post: I have no Idea
what you are talking about. Living dead? 3-11-ens??? Masonic Sun God
Rituals????? :D

But as I said earlier. We actually have a member who is a Freemason,
you may like to ask him, if I only could remember his Nick in here... :(

[moon1969]

People who have been paranoid about the freemasons are Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, Francisco Franco, Pope and the Catholic Church. What did those people do to freemasons?

[fullflavormenthol]

CT'ist want absolute transperancy, and also to connect every dot in a way that might not make any real sense. That unfortunately leads them to except at face value that most idiotic statements; statements about 33 degree Freemason called the "Living Dead". Even though there are no 33rd Degree Freemasons. Even if it is explained over and over that parallel masonic societies have their own degrees that may go up to 33rd. Even though none of those degrees include a "Living Dead" super cool dark zombie eat the brains of the children degree.

They still persist, because no matter how dark and scary their fantasy world is; it gives them the illusion of control through understanding.

[gtc]

I have no Idea what you are talking about. Living dead? 3-11-ens??? Masonic Sun God Rituals????? :D

Look out, its Zombie Oliver!

[LightinDarkness]

Oliver, love your logo it's got it all. What level are you? Left shoulder, right shoulder forehead? would you respond to that. Are you called "The living Dead" 33 % which is 3- 11-ens for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Don't mean to pick on you as I know you are sworn to silence. I think masonic ritual is linked to sun god worship and is a cult. Your logo, three lots of three (trinity) plus blue and red mason colours, beautiful.

I think Bob gets all his information from the Illuminati tin-foil hat network.

He likes to throw around random terms (left shoulder, right shoulder forehead, "the living deal") which he thinks gives the illusion that he knows what he has talking about which in reality mean nothing.

Its a classical sign that someone is clueless about freemasonry when they start thinking the 33rd degree is a high degree. The 33rd degree is from the Scottish Rite which is a side order of freemasonry. The only reason why people like Old Bob obsess over it is because they cannot get it out of their minds that "high numbers must equal rank!" even though 5 minutes of research would show you otherwise.

He even tries to turn a obama logo into something masonic, which is both comical and a little bit sad.

Thanks for everyone's contributions though. I think everyone is right - the gist of it is that CTers demand everyone be transparent because in their paranoia they assume anything they can't find out about must be up to nefarious motives. Oh and in case is was not clear, I am a mason but even I can't figure out the obsession CTs have with the non-existent high degree masons :)

[fullflavormenthol]

I think it is also an issue that they see lists of famous and highly successful people within a fraternity and assume that it is the fraternities responsibility. They don't realize that most freemasons are your average joe, or they just claim they are "porch masons". That is a term I especially hate because it is a clear reference to another very awful term.

Nevertheless the CT'ist doesn't really look into national college fraternities and find lists of famous people. With the exception of Skull & Bones it seems that the CT'ist ignores the Greek letter societies.

Go figure.

[firecoins]

We know the freemasons are not apart of any world conspiracy.

Its the contruction workers, plumbers and electricians in "the union" that have a conspiracy going. I think its called the mafia. I am told that it doesn't exist. To protect my family and myself from ending up in the enzone of the New Giant stadium, I concur the mafia doesn't exist. I swear on Jimmy Hoffa's body it doesn't exist.

[GreNME]

Freemasons are so often accused of conspiracy because they did, in fact, go for many years with a fair amount of clandestine fraternity behavior. Sure, this isn't so much the case today, but two large reasons for that are dwindling numbers and more communication media available. The LDS Church-- which uncoincidentally have similar types of stigma attached to them-- is facing similar changes (but the Masons have a several-century head start).

If there's a group who have parts of their practices unavailable to the general public for review, there are conspiracy theories about them. Plain and simple.

[LightinDarkness]

Freemasons are so often accused of conspiracy because they did, in fact, go for many years with a fair amount of clandestine fraternity behavior.

Really? Can you give 1 single example of this from a regular masonic lodge?


Sure, this isn't so much the case today, but two large reasons for that are dwindling numbers and more communication media available. The LDS Church-- which uncoincidentally have similar types of stigma attached to them-- is facing similar changes (but the Masons have a several-century head start).

You might want to double check that. Membership is booming across every grand lodge I've heard of.


If there's a group who have parts of their practices unavailable to the general public for review, there are conspiracy theories about them. Plain and simple.

Well we know for sure that doesn't apply to freemasonry. You can find out everything about it on the web.

[Confuseling]

...For example, if I say I am a 32nd degree scottish rite mason I am told that high level masons are 33 and "above"...

No true Scotsmason. Join the dots people!

:D

It's just the "conspiracy of the gaps", isn't it? Look at 9-11. I think it was deliberately knocked down, because of this spurious evidence. Someone points out that the firemen have seen said evidence, I conclude that firemen must be in on the conspiracy. Someone points out that they're friends with a fireman, and are actually a mite peeved that I'm suggesting they're however indirectly responsible for covering up mass murder, I explain that I'm not talking about those firemen...

[CptColumbo]

Being a "High Level Mason" is like being a "High Level Member of a Bowling League" on the "Sinister Level".Shhh! Dude, you don't want to mess with the Holy Bowlers. They could frame you and strike you down into the gutter like a turkey, and still have power spare.

[Earthborn]

But as I said earlier. We actually have a member who is a Freemason, you may like to ask him, if I only could remember his Nick in here... :(Checkmite (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64460), the beekeeper formerly known as Joshua Korosi.

[Oliver]

Checkmite (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64460), the beekeeper formerly known as Joshua Korosi.


*lol* Yes, that's the guy I meant. :D Even if I wonder how he managed
to get his new nick if he's not dominating the forum and therefore: The
World!11!! :p

[GreNME]

Freemasons are so often accused of conspiracy because they did, in fact, go for many years with a fair amount of clandestine fraternity behavior.
Really? Can you give 1 single example of this from a regular masonic lodge?

I assume you have a problem with my use of the term 'clandestine' in that sentence. It tends to get Mormons in a tizz as well, even though both (the Masons and Mormons) are and have been technically pretty open. The example I'd give is a simple one: the Masons have historically been very much a 'boys club' in terms of activity, not unlike many organizations dating back a few centuries, and to that end they've faced a lot of criticism from early women's movements (yeah, I know about the Order of the Eastern Star) as well as abolitionists (yes, I know about Prince Hall Masonry), usually for unreasonable (at least for the time or compared to other groups) and overblown accusations, when usually they were mostly as closed-door as similar groups as other public and non-religious member-based organizations through the centuries.

Sure, this isn't so much the case today, but two large reasons for that are dwindling numbers and more communication media available. The LDS Church-- which uncoincidentally have similar types of stigma attached to them-- is facing similar changes (but the Masons have a several-century head start).
You might want to double check that. Membership is booming across every grand lodge I've heard of.

Again, that's a similar statement I hear from LDS members ("fastest growing church" is the usual LDS statement). Regardless, while in the last year or so lodges may have seen booms in membership, not too long ago I also recall several grand lodges in New York and California were engaging in outreach programs because of dwindling and aging membership[like in 2004 (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2004-11-30-freemasons_x.htm) & 1997 (http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Why_Joined/index.html)]. I'm going by historical data and not just counting this year's membership compared to last year's. Lodges have been working on increasing membership since the late 1980's and early 1990's.

You guys should be very pleased with the National Treasure movies, huh? I'm sure CT-ers slather with confirmation bias watching them, but if reports were accurate a few years ago the movies renewed interest in the local lodges. That must burn the bums of the paranoid. ;)

If there's a group who have parts of their practices unavailable to the general public for review, there are conspiracy theories about them. Plain and simple.
Well we know for sure that doesn't apply to freemasonry. You can find out everything about it on the web.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that non-masons were allowed into meetings now. When did that change? (p.s.-- my tongue is firmly in cheek. I understand the nonsense of the notion, I'm pointing out the things that the clinically paranoid grab onto reasons for affirming their hate-on for Masons.)

No need to be defensive regarding me, LightinDarkness. I don't typically care about the Masons (in terms of negative associations or allegations made by the CT crowd). I considered joining a few times, but I lack a key criteria for membership (faith in some divine something) and I thought it disingenuous to be vague or noncommittal about it just to get in. Most of the lodges I've seen anyway have been primarily made up of people 15-20 years my senior, though I have to admit that this is changing as I get older. I think challenging my vague statements to be more specific is more than reasonable, because in hindsight I can see how some conspiracy theorist could get the wrong impression. My statements weren't and aren't criticisms, just general impressions from waxing and waning interest in membership over the last 15 years or so, and some historical data from related study (mostly American history or study of religions that began in the US, like the LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses movements). No harm meant.

[LightinDarkness]

I assume you have a problem with my use of the term 'clandestine' in that sentence. It tends to get Mormons in a tizz as well, even though both (the Masons and Mormons) are and have been technically pretty open. The example I'd give is a simple one: the Masons have historically been very much a 'boys club' in terms of activity, not unlike many organizations dating back a few centuries, and to that end they've faced a lot of criticism from early women's movements (yeah, I know about the Order of the Eastern Star) as well as abolitionists (yes, I know about Prince Hall Masonry), usually for unreasonable (at least for the time or compared to other groups) and overblown accusations, when usually they were mostly as closed-door as similar groups as other public and non-religious member-based organizations through the centuries.

The tenor of your statement was that the masons have done something that is worthy of the criticism. While the organization is not perfect by any means, there is nothing that stands out as being behavior that makes it worthy of the CT stuff I read so much about. It is a fraternity, so while womens groups are free to criticize it that isn't really much of a justification for any of the CT. I mean, fraternities are all-male organizations and Freemasonry is not the only one, and I don't see CT about the Elks, Rotary, or all the countless college fraternities (except Skull & Bones).

But your statement shows you know otherwise, so I'm a bit confused.


Again, that's a similar statement I hear from LDS members ("fastest growing church" is the usual LDS statement).

The difference is I have no reason to lie and the data is freely available to confirm my statement, whereas in the LDS the data is hidden by the church and there is a significant incentive to lie and make members believe otherwise. Also, this is a fraternity and the LDS is a religion. If freemasonry were to have 100% declines per year in membership I would be saddened but it would not majorly change anything in my life, if that happens in the LDS you will have lots of people questioning their very spiritual existence.


Regardless, while in the last year or so lodges may have seen booms in membership, not too long ago I also recall several grand lodges in New York and California were engaging in outreach programs because of dwindling and aging membership

There is a difference between outreach programs to dispel myths and outreach programs to lure members. It is true that in some jurisdictions membership has been on the decline, which is a function of the declining nature of Americans to partake in social capital institutions (as Robert Putnam proved in his research). However, every jurisdiction that I know of that has had continual declines has over the past two or three years for the first time seen that decline rate shrink, and many are now slightly positive.


You guys should be very pleased with the National Treasure movies, huh? I'm sure CT-ers slather with confirmation bias watching them, but if reports were accurate a few years ago the movies renewed interest in the local lodges. That must burn the bums of the paranoid. ;)

Actually most masons think that sort of media exposure is really bad. What it creates is legions of people seeking to find non-existent masonic secrets whom we must try to identify and weed out in the interview process, and some of those still get through and we end up with ring masons who get raised and never do anything else in masonry for the rest of their lives.



I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that non-masons were allowed into meetings now. When did that change? (p.s.-- my tongue is firmly in cheek. I understand the nonsense of the notion, I'm pointing out the things that the clinically paranoid grab onto reasons for affirming their hate-on for Masons.)

Indeed, you are quite good at this. Perhaps a anti-mason in another life? :D



No need to be defensive regarding me, LightinDarkness. I don't typically care about the Masons (in terms of negative associations or allegations made by the CT crowd). I considered joining a few times, but I lack a key criteria for membership (faith in some divine something) and I thought it disingenuous to be vague or noncommittal about it just to get in.

Depending on how you perceive "faith in something," its probably more accurate to say "belief in something," which may not require faith. We have had candidates who believed in a Supreme Being but did not have any particular faith that the Supreme Being interfered in human affairs or was otherwise involved in any part of life. So it may still fit you, although you probably won't find any value in the philosophy unless you at least agree that the Supreme Being does watch what you are doing and will judge accordingly.

By the way, I wasn't defensive. However, I just found your statement kind of general and was seeking explinations for them..which you provided. Thanks :)

Also, I would note a student of religion myself that the correlates you may see between LDS or any other religion are merely correlations that lack any real causation mechanism. Freemasonry is I think rather unique in its aims and methods, but I think the most closely related organizations that you could find meaningful correlations with would be things like Elks or Odd Fellows.

[Liszt]

You may also want to look for a definition with an (n) rather than a (v) next time- context counting for something and all...

It becomes an adjective in post 9

My favorite part of this particular woo conspiracy...


My 9 year old nephew speaks like this.

[Liszt]

on topic for a change...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/noyes-tangled-web-of-corruption-721292.html

In the late 70s Noye joined the Hammersmith Freeemasons' Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two police officers. He eventually rose to be the master of the lodge with the support of the membership of which the police made up a sizeable proportion. Other masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow mason.

Not exactly taking over the world, but naughty nevertheless.

(And I have my own amusing collection of masonic stories, but have been sworn to secrecy, so will not be posting them.)

[LightinDarkness]

on topic for a change...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/noyes-tangled-web-of-corruption-721292.html

In the late 70s Noye joined the Hammersmith Freeemasons' Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two police officers. He eventually rose to be the master of the lodge with the support of the membership of which the police made up a sizeable proportion. Other masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow mason.

Actually not quite on topic since we are talking about what defines "high level freemasons" - however, a interesting article. I note that at no time is there any proof that this guy was "helped out" by a mason by virtue of his masonic membership. Could it be that the guy was illegitimately charged with something due to freemason hysteria? The assumption by news articles that anytime freemasons work together to do something it must be because of their masonic membership has been wrong in every case I've ever seen.

People of the same profession being in a lodge is not wrong. It happens all the time. Its not the result of a conspiracy, but more because most people spend a lot of their time at work.


Not exactly taking over the world, but naughty nevertheless.

I do not see anything naughty about it, unless the guy was helped out BECAUSE of his masonic membership. Again, the news article provides no evidence for this and this invalid inference is a common media theme when it comes to masons.


(And I have my own amusing collection of masonic stories, but have been sworn to secrecy, so will not be posting them.)

Clearly you are part of the Illuminati then and are just a culpable as evil Freemasons.

[LightinDarkness]

It becomes an adjective in post 9

My favorite part of this particular woo conspiracy...


My 9 year old nephew speaks like this.

I am sorry your intellectually incapable of understanding humor. My 3 year old cat also routinely fails to understand humor.

[Oliver]

I am sorry your intellectually incapable of understanding humor. My 3 year old cat also routinely fails to understand humor.


So did you contact Checkmite (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64460), the JREF-Freemason, yet to tell
him about this thread?

[Old Bob]

Is this a joke? :D

First: I live in Germany and the vast majority thinks that secret societies
are BS. Secondly, the Logo is an official Obama Campaign Logo, namely
"Rebublicans for Obama". Concerning the rest of your post: I have no Idea
what you are talking about. Living dead? 3-11-ens??? Masonic Sun God
Rituals????? :D

But as I said earlier. We actually have a member who is a Freemason,
you may like to ask him, if I only could remember his Nick in here... :(

Oliver, too much to explain, can you study up on Masons, lots on the net. All the numbers have a name eg "The Great Architect" is at the 32 level (Obama is a 32 % Mason) while 30% is called "The Kadosch" Every Mason temple has mock pillars from Solomon's Temple, how Jewish is that. The logo you chose reeks of Mason symbol. As for the Sun God Worship bit have a look at the Aus. Army logo and the Catholic Church and what about the Jap. rising sun. As for 11 the twin towers come to mind at 11 0 story's high, then we have remembrance day held on the 11of 11 month at 11 o'clock. All the obelisks are multi 11 usually in feet. Then we can start on ley lines.

[JoeyDonuts]

Oliver, too much to explain, can you study up on Masons, lots on the net. All the numbers have a name eg "The Great Architect" is at the 32 level (Obama is a 32 % Mason) while 30% is called "The Kadosch" Every Mason temple has mock pillars from Solomon's Temple, how Jewish is that. The logo you chose reeks of Mason symbol. As for the Sun God Worship bit have a look at the Aus. Army logo and the Catholic Church and what about the Jap. rising sun. As for 11 the twin towers come to mind at 11 0 story's high, then we have remembrance day held on the 11of 11 month at 11 o'clock. All the obelisks are multi 11 usually in feet. Then we can start on ley lines.

Ahem.

:jaw-dropp WHAT?!?!?!?!

http://www.frools.net/lolz/sisko-facepalm.jpg

Betcha didn't know Capt. Sisko was a Master Mason. The Starfleet symbol is Masonic, after all.

[Mashuna]

Obama is a 32 % Mason

It's his left leg and right arm that are Masons. The other 68% of Obama is a Stonecutter.

[fullflavormenthol]

The rising sun symbolism in Japanese history isn't related to freemasonry. Not even going to look it up. Seriously. I am breaking the rules of skepticism here, because honestly there are ideas and statements so far removed from reality that they actually debunk themselves.

If you have proof of this symbolism coming from freemasonry presented it, but that proof isn't going to be accepted if it comes in the..."well Masons have sun symbolism, and the Japanese have sun symbolism; so therefore..." nope it doesn't work that way. The reason why every civilization has sun symbolism is because it is a really bright big thing up in the sky that try as they may they just couldn't help but to notice.

Oh yeah...and ley lines don't exist.

[Alex Libman]

Not all Italians are in the mafia. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all masons know that their order is being manipulated by Angelina Jolie who is a 10,000-year-old fungus-like creature from Planet d'Qhrf. Go figure.

[JoeyDonuts]

Not all Italians are in the mafia. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all masons know that their order is being manipulated by Angelina Jolie who is a 10,000-year-old fungus-like creature from Planet d'Qhrf. Go figure.

In that case, I'd like to engage in some fungiality.


...oh, and Old Bob - your latest zinger just earned you a Stundie Nomination. And no, that isn't a secret Masonic ritual.

[Liszt]

Could it be that the guy was illegitimately charged with something due to freemason hysteria? The assumption by news articles that anytime freemasons work together to do something it must be because of their masonic membership has been wrong in every case I've ever seen.




Not at all - Ken Noye is one of the most famous criminals in the UK

Kenneth James Noye (born 24 May 1947) is a British criminal who was convicted of the 1996 murder of Stephen Cameron.

Noye was involved in laundering the proceeds of the Brinks Mat robbery in 1983. While he was being investigated for his part in the robbery, he stabbed to death a police officer (John Fordham) who was observing Noye from the grounds of his home. Noye was acquitted of murder on the grounds of self-defence, but was sentenced to 14 years in prison in 1986 for handling stolen gold. He was released from prison in 1994, having served 8 years of his sentence.

[Liszt]

I am sorry your intellectually incapable of understanding humor. My 3 year old cat also routinely fails to understand humor.

making up words is not my idea of humour. No one uses baby talk any more -that meme has long since died.

[Uncle Vanya]

for the Sun God Worship bit have a look at the Aus. Army logo and the Catholic Church and what about the Jap. rising sun.

Please answer the following question for me:

What do the following have in common: The Australian (or Austrian, not sure) Army, the Catholic Church and Japan?

a) They are all organizations (countries) that people are members (citizens) of.
b) Something to do with Masonry
c) Sun God worship?
d) lolwut?

[GreNME]

By the way, I wasn't defensive. However, I just found your statement kind of general and was seeking explinations for them..which you provided. Thanks :)

Hey, no problem. I totally understand the desire for clarification, and while a more full discussion on our individual impressions of the group might be interesting I think we're both in agreement that not only are conspiracy theories about the Masons pure bunk, but the bases for those conspiracy theories are bunk as well. I was merely offering a glimpse into the point of view that most CT-ists I've met over the years have given me as to their reasoning (which I find unconvincing).

[side note]
Also, I would note a student of religion myself that the correlates you may see between LDS or any other religion are merely correlations that lack any real causation mechanism. Freemasonry is I think rather unique in its aims and methods, but I think the most closely related organizations that you could find meaningful correlations with would be things like Elks or Odd Fellows.

Well, that's a difficult subject for me to go into myself in terms of maximum verifiable confidence, mostly because the correlations as far as the LDS are concerned would have to do with things I'm not privy to witness due to lack of membership and unwillingness to obtain an unsanctioned recommend to find out myself. I'd rather chalk up any possible similarities to the social phenomenon of two organizational units having rubbed up against each other at some point (which they did) and just-so-happening to leave a bit of a mark from the friction. It's something pretty common in the Christian denominations from what I know, and not at all unnatural in terms of social influence or attitude migration-- it could start a few converts or mutual members passing ideas, and wind up being a lasting memetic ripple in the pond of consciousness.

[/side note]

Okay, I'm really done waxing figurative for now. :)

[Seanette]

[QUOTE=GreNME;4240546]Well, that's a difficult subject for me to go into myself in terms of maximum verifiable confidence, mostly because the correlations as far as the LDS are concerned would have to do with things I'm not privy to witness due to lack of membership and unwillingness to obtain an unsanctioned recommend to find out myself. I'd rather chalk up any possible similarities to the social phenomenon of two organizational units having rubbed up against each other at some point (which they did) and just-so-happening to leave a bit of a mark from the friction. It's something pretty common in the Christian denominations from what I know, and not at all unnatural in terms of social influence or attitude migration-- it could start a few converts or mutual members passing ideas, and wind up being a lasting memetic ripple in the pond of consciousness.[/side note]

I have the opposite verification problem, since I'm not a Mason (obviously, since I'm female :) ), but am LDS. It's my understanding (which I hope Bob will correct if I misstate anything) that Masonic ritual represents part of an ancient ceremony that was restored in part due to Joseph Smith's contact with Masonry (he and several other early members of the LDS church were Masons). That restored ceremony is now our Temple endowment.

I of course cannot confirm very much of this firsthand, lacking first-hand knowledge of Masonic ritual and having made covenants to not go into detail regarding Temple ordinances outside the Temple.

[GreNME]

I'd say we have the same verification problem, just on different sides of the line that we won't cross for ethical reasons. I have no problem with it, because I don't see the boogeymen that conspiracy theorists tend to claim are there.

[LightinDarkness]

making up words is not my idea of humour. No one uses baby talk any more -that meme has long since died.

I will let you know when I care about your opinion. Just because it seems to enrage you so much, I will continue to use woo to describe conspiracy theorists. Now, go away troll.

[LightinDarkness]

Oliver, too much to explain, can you study up on Masons, lots on the net. All the numbers have a name eg "The Great Architect" is at the 32 level (Obama is a 32 % Mason) while 30% is called "The Kadosch"

Bob, we all know you just pull this stuff out of your nether regions, but if you're going to continue to do that can you do me a favor and at least make it believable?

"The Great Architect" is never used in freemasonry. The term "Great Architect of the Universe" is a term that is used throughout as a reverential name for whatever God the individual mason believes in.

The names of the degrees are simply theatrical, and yet again, I must remind you that your obsession with the Scottish Rite degree displays you know nothing about freemasonry. The Scottish Rite is just ONE side order, but people like you obsess with it because it has "large numbers" that mystify you even though these numbers don't mean anything in terms of rank, authority, or power. The 32nd degree is styled Master or Price of the Royal Secret. The 30th degree changes depending on what jurisdiction you are, it can be Knight Kadosh or Grand Inspect or Knight of the Black and White Eagle.


Every Mason temple has mock pillars from Solomon's Temple, how Jewish is that. The logo you chose reeks of Mason symbol. As for the Sun God Worship bit have a look at the Aus. Army logo and the Catholic Church and what about the Jap. rising sun. As for 11 the twin towers come to mind at 11 0 story's high, then we have remembrance day held on the 11of 11 month at 11 o'clock. All the obelisks are multi 11 usually in feet. Then we can start on ley lines.

How does one mock pillars of a temple? Does one make fun of them or call them names? Hit them with sticks? As a SR mason I know such claims are simply not true and are conspiracy fantasy.

There is no Sun God worship, or worship of any God. Why is it the antis continually make this stuff up without even thinking about it - has it occurred to you that worshiping something means that I would definitely know it if I was doing it? How exactly can I worship something without even knowing about it?

[LightinDarkness]

Not at all - Ken Noye is one of the most famous criminals in the UK

And what evidence do you have that any of this has to do with freemasonry? Yet again, the same old trick of finding one mason of millions who does something wrong and trying to generalize.

And everything I can find in reference to this man, except freemasonrywatch (your source?) says WAS a mason. No longer.

[JoeyDonuts]

Liszt, I'm just wondering if it's possible that someone can post here 745 times and have no idea what "woo" is.

[Checkmite]

Oliver, too much to explain, can you study up on Masons, lots on the net. All the numbers have a name eg "The Great Architect" is at the 32 level (Obama is a 32 % Mason) while 30% is called "The Kadosch" Every Mason temple has mock pillars from Solomon's Temple, how Jewish is that. The logo you chose reeks of Mason symbol. As for the Sun God Worship bit have a look at the Aus. Army logo and the Catholic Church and what about the Jap. rising sun. As for 11 the twin towers come to mind at 11 0 story's high, then we have remembrance day held on the 11of 11 month at 11 o'clock. All the obelisks are multi 11 usually in feet. Then we can start on ley lines.

Wow, all kinds of fun stuff here.

Firstly, yes, all degrees in Freemasonry have names. The first three degrees have the same names everywhere; however, all the rest of the degrees have different names, depending on where you are in the world, or even where you are in your country. For instance, the 32nd degree in the US is called "Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret" in the Northern Scottish Rite, and "Master of the Royal Secret" in the Southern. There is no degree of "Great Architect", because "Great Architect of the Universe" is the placeholder title for whichever Creator an individual Mason believes in, and you can't attain the degree of Creator. Also, the 30th degree is known as "Knight Kadosh", not simply "Kadosh", in the Southern jurisdiction only; in the Northern, that degree is called "Grand Inspector". Also, Barack Obama has never been a Mason. Neither was Bill Clinton, or either of the Bushes. In fact, the last US president to be a Mason was Gerald Ford.

Next, there's nothing wrong with or even necessarily "Jewish" about references to Solomon's temple; Freemasonry was originally founded by Christians and King Solomon is an important figure in Christianity (something about being mentioned in the Bible - I don't know). Also, there is nothing particularly "Masonic" about Oliver's avatar; neither do stylized elephants, the letter O, the upper half of the letter O, or a round arch with three stars on it have any Masonic significance whatsoever. It is true that the number "3" occurs often in Masonry, but the reason for this is predominantly Christian in nature; and in any case, just because Masonry uses 3 a lot does not mean that everything which uses 3 is Masonic. That's like saying that since Masonic lodges are typically carpeted, all carpets in all other buildings are Masonic references.

Next, the Australian Army, the Catholic Church, and the JapANESE "rising sun" are not Masonic bodies or entities. In fact, the Catholic Church technically forbids membership in Freemasonry. As for "11" bringing the twin towers to mind, I will not argue with that. Both the numbers 11 and 9 bring them to mind for me, since they were destroyed on 9/11. But neither of the numbers 9 or 11 are Masonically significant. Your "all the obelisks are multi 11" remark is ambiguous and nonsensical, so I cannot address it. And finally, there are no such things as ley lines.

Now, as for the OP:

I think the amount of conspiracy theorizing about Masonry stems from the fact that, it's true, there WERE and ARE many Masons who managed to become prominent figures in their various real-life disciplines. There are many, many more non-famous Masons, of course, but they don't matter; what matters to conspiracy theorists is that a bunch of famous people can be tied to one "thing" - a club, a restaurant, a point of view. And to conspiracy theorists, too many famous names in the same place simply cannot add up to anything good. They seem to think that when two or more supposedly "powerful" people get together, the only thing they could ever possibly want to talk about is power, and how to maintain it. I'm willing to bet a lot of people who think this way are projecting their own worldview - they're the kind of people who, when they see there happens to be only white people around right this moment, will think they can get away with telling racist jokes.

[Liszt]

And what evidence do you have that any of this has to do with freemasonry? Yet again, the same old trick of finding one mason of millions who does something wrong and trying to generalize.

And everything I can find in reference to this man, except freemasonrywatch (your source?) says WAS a mason. No longer.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/noyes-tangled-web-of-corruption-721292.html

In the late 70s Noye joined the Hammersmith Freeemasons' Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two police officers. He eventually rose to be the master of the lodge with the support of the membership of which the police made up a sizeable proportion. Other masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow mason.

And, for the record, I'm a big fan of freemasons. Most of the great composers, mathematicians and politicians have been masons. So are many of my family. I'm not, but only because I live in a strange area. I did crash a Masonic christmas party once though, and they didn't even mind.


(edit - and I don't think there is a Masonic conspiracy in the slightest. They can barely organise a dinner party)

[Liszt]

Liszt, I'm just wondering if it's possible that someone can post here 745 times and have no idea what "woo" is.

well, I said this

"making up words is not my idea of humour. No one uses baby talk any more -that meme has long since died."

which should have been fairly clear.

[JoeyDonuts]

well, I said this

"making up words is not my idea of humour. No one uses baby talk any more -that meme has long since died."

which should have been fairly clear.

A demonstration. And a rather lovely one at that.

d5EzKtn2ARE

[Liszt]

sometimes, membership in this forum fills me with sadness.

[Bob Blaylock]

Well, that's a difficult subject for me to go into myself in terms of maximum verifiable confidence, mostly because the correlations as far as the LDS are concerned would have to do with things I'm not privy to witness due to lack of membership and unwillingness to obtain an unsanctioned recommend to find out myself. I'd rather chalk up any possible similarities to the social phenomenon of two organizational units having rubbed up against each other at some point (which they did) and just-so-happening to leave a bit of a mark from the friction. It's something pretty common in the Christian denominations from what I know, and not at all unnatural in terms of social influence or attitude migration-- it could start a few converts or mutual members passing ideas, and wind up being a lasting memetic ripple in the pond of consciousness


I have the opposite verification problem, since I'm not a Mason (obviously, since I'm female :) ), but am LDS. It's my understanding (which I hope Bob will correct if I misstate anything) that Masonic ritual represents part of an ancient ceremony that was restored in part due to Joseph Smith's contact with Masonry (he and several other early members of the LDS church were Masons). That restored ceremony is now our Temple endowment.

I of course cannot confirm very much of this firsthand, lacking first-hand knowledge of Masonic ritual and having made covenants to not go into detail regarding Temple ordinances outside the Temple.


I've heard of it being claimed that the Freemasons date back to actual construction workers who were involved in building and maintaining Solomon's Temple; that because it was expedient in allowing them to go about their jobs, they were allowed to be present at ceremonies and rituals in which they would otherwise not have been involved, but were forbidden to discuss what they saw except among themselves. The story has it that after the Temple was destroyed, this group took it upon themselves to preserve what they could of these ceremonies; holding fast; of course, to their obligation to keep these within their group and not disclose them to anyone outside of their group.

It would stand to reason, if this claim were true, that the Freemasons of today would have ceremonies that bore some recognizable similarity to the ceremonies that actually took place in Solomon's Temple.

As a Mormon, it would not be any stretch, then, to suppose, even if no contact had ever occurred between Joseph Smith or any other church leaders, and the Freemasons, that our ceremonies may included restored forms of the original ceremonies that took place in Solomon's Temple, and would therefore bear a recognizable resemblance to the ceremonies that the Freemasons have, derived from that source.

I do not know the origin of this claim, or how much credibility to grant it. Assuming any similarity between the Masonic ceremonies and our own, this claim, if itself plausible, would certainly provide a plausible explanation for that similarity.

Now, as it happens, Joseph Smith was a Freemason. There are conflicting accounts as to just when he joined the Freemasons, relative to when he revealed the ceremonies that take place in our Temples.

In any event, I don't see how any account, accepted as true, of the connections between Freemasonry and early Mormonism creates any problem for us. Clearly, we believe that the ceremonies in which we participate in in our Temples are given to us by God, and are taking place in the context in which God intends them to take place. If anything was copied from the Freemasons, then I find no trouble in believing that the Freemasons were perhaps used by God as an instrument by which some bits of ancient knowledge and ceremony might be preserved until the time came to restore them to their proper form and context.

Of course, all this assumes that there really is some recognizable similarity between the ceremonies of these two different organizations. I think the only ones who could know this would be those who are both Freemasons and who are also Mormons who have been through the Temple. As an example of the latter, I am under sacred obligations to hold what I have experienced sacred and not disclose details thereof to outsiders. I understand Freemasons to be under similar obligations with regard to their ceremonies. Anyone from either group who purports to be disclosing such details could not be assumed to be a credible source of that which he claims to be disclosing — either he is violating sacred vows and covenants, and thus proving himself to be untrustworthy and dishonest; or else he is simply lying about the details that he claims to be disclosing.

I do know that there are many sites on the web that purport to reveal details of both groups' ceremonies. I cannot comment at all on the accuracy of the accounts of Masonic ceremonies; regarding Mormon ceremonies, I can say that there is considerably more falsehood than truth to be found on sites that purport to be disclosing our details. I won't say anything about what out there is specifically false, and what is true, other than to say that in general, the more bizarre it seems to you, the more likely it is to be false.

[Liszt]

first!

[LightinDarkness]

sometimes, membership in this forum fills me with sadness.

Which is why I ponder why you wouldn't just leave. But then I remember you are trolling, and then I just have to laugh at your pathetic trolling attempts. :D

[LightinDarkness]

I've heard of it being claimed that the Freemasons date back to actual construction workers who were involved in building and maintaining Solomon's Temple; that because it was expedient in allowing them to go about their jobs, they were allowed to be present at ceremonies and rituals in which they would otherwise not have been involved, but were forbidden to discuss what they saw except among themselves. The story has it that after the Temple was destroyed, this group took it upon themselves to preserve what they could of these ceremonies; holding fast; of course, to their obligation to keep these within their group and not disclose them to anyone outside of their group.

This is a very good overview of masonic myth and legend but it is, we know from the research of many scholars, historically inaccurate. Historically freemasonry developed from stone mason guilds of the medieval ages, where the secrets of building were the key to being able to ensure ones own livelihood and were jealousy guarded by craft guilds. At some point the rich of the day, who had lots of money and little to do, asked to join the guilds to learn the "secrets." The guilds recognized this was a very easy way to soak rich people for lots of money. These rich people who joined were called "speculative" masons because they did not actually build but rather applied the principles and secrets of stone masonry to create what we now know of as freemasonic philosophy. Over time, speculative freemasonry was born.


As a Mormon, it would not be any stretch, then, to suppose, even if no contact had ever occurred between Joseph Smith or any other church leaders, and the Freemasons, that our ceremonies may included restored forms of the original ceremonies that took place in Solomon's Temple, and would therefore bear a recognizable resemblance to the ceremonies that the Freemasons have, derived from that source.

Frankly speaking, Smith simply lifted large portions of masonic ritual and edited some parts to make it more religion oriented.


I do not know the origin of this claim, or how much credibility to grant it. Assuming any similarity between the Masonic ceremonies and our own, this claim, if itself plausible, would certainly provide a plausible explanation for that similarity.

While masons are under obligations not to reveal certain signs, grips, and words, we can otherwise explain our ceremonies and realistically speaking masonic ritual has been exposed since around 1725. Mormon ritual has also been exposed for some time. Everyone can claim they are different now or whatever they want, but lets be blunt here and be honest: Yes, there are similarities, and yes, Joseph Smith basically at some points copied masonic ritual. I don't have a problem with it, but I'd never become a Mormon personally because I know masonic ritual is based in the secular and knowing that someone used it for religious ritual would devalue it for me. But hey, if it makes Mormons happy..whatever works!

[Liszt]

Which is why I ponder why you wouldn't just leave. But then I remember you are trolling, and then I just have to laugh at your pathetic trolling attempts. :D

But you didn't even know who Ken Noye was. And you suggested that I use "freemasonry watch" as a source, when all I did was use my memory and The Independent newspaper.

So I expect that you laugh at things which just disappoint normal people. I just enjoy poking holes in people who are clearly twats. I have written a whole book about it.

[LightinDarkness]

But you didn't even know who Ken Noye was. And you suggested that I use "freemasonry watch" as a source, when all I did was use my memory and The Independent newspaper.

So I expect that you laugh at things which just disappoint normal people. I just enjoy poking holes in people who are clearly twats. I have written a whole book about it.

And you failed completely to prove anything about Ken Noye - so nice of you to know so much about him and yet fail in a spectacular manner to demonstrate that the charges against him had absolutely anything to do with freemasonry. In reality you showed its just yet another example of the Freemason witch hunt to find 1 person out of 5 million who has done something wrong and try to make a invalid causation claim.

Who cares if you've written a book? Unless it was peer reviewed, its incredibly easy to do and its probably vanity publishing, since given the tremendous lack of logic or intelligence you've displayed means no real publisher would take you seriously.

You've failed, troll. The story of your life, no doubt.

[Liszt]

And you failed completely to prove anything about Ken Noye - so nice of you to know so much about him and yet fail in a spectacular manner to demonstrate that the charges against him had absolutely anything to do with freemasonry. In reality you showed its just yet another example of the Freemason witch hunt to find 1 person out of 5 million who has done something wrong and try to make a invalid causation claim.

Who cares if you've written a book? Unless it was peer reviewed, its incredibly easy to do and its probably vanity publishing, since given the tremendous lack of logic or intelligence you've displayed means no real publisher would take you seriously.

You've failed, troll. The story of your life, no doubt.

Did you even read the info about Noye? It is all there. And what Freemason whitch hunt? Noye is the most famous case involving them, but practically the only one - my masonic friends are all very decent people. There is no conspiracy at all involving any of them. Lookng at available info, it would seem that there is a conspiracy by non masons to ruin everything good. The reverse Midas touch.

And comic books do not get peer reviewed. "I just enjoy poking holes in people who are clearly twats. I have written a whole book about it." What do you think I wrote? How freemasons are taking over the world? Or how to wind up twats?

[Liszt]

oh yes...other "bad" freemasons include Beethoven, Mozart and...erm...Liszt.

[Old Bob]

Checkmite, you put a long and interesting post up, but let me tell you leylines are real. Have spent a lot of time trying to understand them. Can dowse and feel them and on full moon my wife can see them. The mystery of migrating birds is I believe they can see them and follow them across the ocean. Have a interesting book called "The dissipation of Darkness" A banned book (when I find where I have put it) on the history of Masons. Very informative and out side the square, dry and hard to read. Will have some fun on this thread when I find it.

[Glite]

Just as with any organization, we have things in common, and as a result, keep an eye on one another. (within limits, excluding covering up a crime etc.)

The highest degree in Freemasonry is the 3rd or Master Mason degree. All other numbers are affiliate bodies that came after the origonal lodges and have no rank in any Grand Lodge.

Conspiracy nuts love numbers, and can do creative things to make thier stories legit. Some people have done some pretty impressive things with the numbers 9 and 11, they're batsh!t insane, but creative I suppose.

[Skeptic]

I am then told that because I am a mason but have never seen any evidence for these claims,

That's because its us Jews, not you Masons, who secretly rule the world.

(Is there such a thing as a "high level Jew"? Must involve calling one's mother a lot.)

[Old Bob]

I know little about The Mormons except they worship God, they may copy some Mason rituals but that would be it. Masons worship Lucifer. I have a old book called "The Dissipation of Darkness" when I find it again will be better armed as it's full of good stuff on Hiram and Levy and all the info a mason doesn't want to hear. Years ago in western Victoria a couple of the locals sneaked a smelly mad wild billy goat in the mason hallow room the day before a major meeting, they weren't happy to open the door and be met by billy urinating and whatever. Just had to laugh.

[JoeyDonuts]

Can dowse and feel them and on full moon my wife can see them.

So how about the two of you apply for Randi's MDC? You can "dowse" your way into history and a million dollars.

Be advised though, there's a rather large obstacle called the "scientific method" standing in your way.

[brodski]

Is there such a thing as a "high level Jew"?

Jews in space?

[Akhenaten]

I know little about The Mormons except they worship God, they may copy some Mason rituals but that would be it. Masons worship Lucifer. I have a old book called "The Dissipation of Darkness" when I find it again will be better armed as it's full of good stuff on Hiram and Levy and all the info a mason doesn't want to hear. Years ago in western Victoria a couple of the locals sneaked a smelly mad wild billy goat in the mason hallow room the day before a major meeting, they weren't happy to open the door and be met by billy urinating and whatever. Just had to laugh.

11 - The age you act.
11 - The IQ you display.
11 - The number of kangaroos loose in your top paddock.

I think you're onto something. Keep looking. Stop posting. You're a disgrace to my state and my country.

[Skeptic]

Oliver, too much to explain, can you study up on Masons, lots on the net

If it's on the internet, it HAS to be true.

[Old Bob]

11 - The age you act.
11 - The IQ you display.
11 - The number of kangaroos loose in your top paddock.

I think you're onto something. Keep looking. Stop posting. You're a disgrace to my state and my country.

Another Mason ("my state, my country?") how about sharing. What do you keep in the apron pockets.?

[Chaos]

Some people have done some pretty impressive things with the numbers 9 and 11, they're batsh!t insane, but creative I suppose.

Yup.

Apparently, the combination of high creativity and a tenuous grasp of reality is a prime recipe for becoming an original CTer (as opposed to the usual copy-and-paste nutters).

[LightinDarkness]

I know little about The Mormons except they worship God, they may copy some Mason rituals but that would be it.

Its VERY clear you know very little about...well...everything you've posted about so far. I love the CT logic though - Joseph Smith copied vast portions of masonic ritual for Mormon temple services, and somehow Mormons worship God and masons worship "Lucifer"? Inconsistent much?


Masons worship Lucifer.

Can we get something clear here. No one worships Lucifer. No one. Lucifer is not a divine entity. The word appears one time in the old testament and is most likely a reference to a regional King.


I have a old book called "The Dissipation of Darkness" when I find it again will be better armed as it's full of good stuff on Hiram and Levy and all the info a mason doesn't want to hear.

Right. Because we ALL know that books, particularly books written with an agenda, are 100% truth. Perhaps you should read books based on actual research instead of fables?


Years ago in western Victoria a couple of the locals sneaked a smelly mad wild billy goat in the mason hallow room the day before a major meeting, they weren't happy to open the door and be met by billy urinating and whatever. Just had to laugh.

Good to hear you get a laugh out of destroying other peoples property. Its so funny to harass and harm people based on a belief misguided fairy tales that have no proof!

[SimonD]

11 - The age you act.
11 - The IQ you display.
11 - The number of kangaroos loose in your top paddock.

I think you're onto something. Keep looking. Stop posting. You're a disgrace to my state and my country.

Akhenaten, Old Bob is from Queensland, so let me say it.

Old Bob you are a disgrace to my state and my country

[fromdownunder]

Akhenaten, Old Bob is from Queensland [snip]

...and he ate too many of Flo's pumpkin scones.

Norm

[Akhenaten]

Another Mason ("my state, my country?") how about sharing. What do you keep in the apron pockets.?


As usual, the errors in your post begin with the very first word.

5.22 million people are entitled to call Victoria "my state".

20.34 million people are entitled to call Australia "my country".

Are they all Freemasons, ya drongo?


I am ineligible to join the Freemasons, since I'm an atheist and can't acknowledge a supreme being, great architect or whatever. Nevertheless, I find your apparent glee at the wanton vandalism of these peoples' property to be disgusting and childish.

As far as I know, the aprons worn during Freemason ceremonies are symbolic rather than practical, and don't have pockets. I imagine real stone-working masons have chisels and the like in theirs. Does this help?

My own workshop apron has pocketses. You can have three guesses at what's in them if you like, Smeabob.



PS I've been kindly reminded by SimonD that you're actually from Queensland, which means that at a state level, you're only an embarrasment to 4.28 million people. I apologise for my earlier mistake.

[gtc]

He's also an embarassment to those of us who used to live in Queensland.

[LightinDarkness]

As far as I know, the aprons worn during Freemason ceremonies are symbolic rather than practical, and don't have pockets. I imagine real stone-working masons have chisels and the like in theirs. Does this help?


Quite right...of course, if you don't believe the masons are on a path of world domination, you do know that must mean you're a mason. Even if your an atheist (you wouldn't have happened to have been abducted by the Grand Lodge of France and initiated would you? Atheists are allowed by the GLoF :eek:).

[Akhenaten]

Quite right...of course, if you don't believe the masons are on a path of world domination, you do know that must mean you're a mason. Even if your an atheist (you wouldn't have happened to have been abducted by the Grand Lodge of France and initiated would you? Atheists are allowed by the GLoF :eek:).


Le shhh! Vous will revealez mon secret! N'allowez-pas le chat dehors le bag!


My apologies to real French-speaking folks.

[Old Bob]

Akhenaten, did those nasty old Mason boys black ball you? They do that to those who's light is just not bright enough. And you may be happy to know I grew up in NE Vic. That's where I learnt some of the good stuff. And I have been asked to join the Masons but declined, sooner hunt furry creatures. And Norm don't make fun of a good woman, Flo has my respect.

[Akhenaten]

Akhenaten, did those nasty old Mason boys black ball you? They do that to those who's light is just not bright enough.


I am Nepherkheperure Waenre and I stand in the full light of the Aten. At one time I commanded armies of masons, who only did black balling when they were working with obsidian.



And you may be happy to know I grew up in NE Vic.


I'd be happy if you just grew up.



That's where I learnt some of the good stuff.


Which you're obviously keeping to yourself while you post drivel here.



And I have been asked to join the Masons but declined, sooner hunt furry creatures.


The two, of course, being mutually exclusive. Is nonus sequiterus one of the furry creatures that you hunt?



And Norm don't make fun of a good woman, Flo has my respect.


How unfortunate for Lady Flo. With friends like you and all . . .

[fromdownunder]

And Norm don't make fun of a good woman, Flo has my respect.


Bob, it was not Flo that I was making fun of. And I am sorry to hear that you come from Victoria originally. Oh well, at least when you moved to Queensland you increased the average IQ of both states.

Norm

[LightinDarkness]

And I have been asked to join the Masons but declined,

I must hand it to the founders of freemasonry - they were wise beyond their years to ensure that one of the foundations of the order is that no one is ever invited.

I have noticed over the years that everyone who has a problem with freemasonry always claims to have been invited. Always. Without fail. And about 80% of the time, they also always claim to have some male relative who is the elusive 33rd degree.

Is it the desire to feel validated that makes people make this stuff up? Is it the internal need to belong fighting with the anti-mason's irrational belief system that causes such claims? One thing is for sure: if you claim you've been invited to join then you are a liar.

[Glite]

"Can we get something clear here. No one worships Lucifer. No one. Lucifer is not a divine entity. The word appears one time in the old testament and is most likely a reference to a regional King."

I've read that "lucifer" is the latin for the "morning star", a term which some christians use to describe Jesus. In fact I believe there is a passage where Jesus refers to himself as Lucifer.

"the aprons worn during Freemason ceremonies are symbolic rather than practical, and don't have pockets."

Mine has a pocket on the back. I keep gum or mints in it.

(me can't remember how to quote)

[Chaos]

"Can we get something clear here. No one worships Lucifer. No one. Lucifer is not a divine entity. The word appears one time in the old testament and is most likely a reference to a regional King."

I've read that "lucifer" is the latin for the "morning star", a term which some christians use to describe Jesus. In fact I believe there is a passage where Jesus refers to himself as Lucifer.

"the aprons worn during Freemason ceremonies are symbolic rather than practical, and don't have pockets."

Mine has a pocket on the back. I keep gum or mints in it.

(me can't remember how to quote)

FWIW, "lucifer" means "lightbringer", and indeed refers to the Morning Star.

This one, that is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

Not this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon)

[Old Bob]

I must hand it to the founders of freemasonry - they were wise beyond their years to ensure that one of the foundations of the order is that no one is ever invited.

I have noticed over the years that everyone who has a problem with freemasonry always claims to have been invited. Always. Without fail. And about 80% of the time, they also always claim to have some male relative who is the elusive 33rd degree.

Is it the desire to feel validated that makes people make this stuff up? Is it the internal need to belong fighting with the anti-mason's irrational belief system that causes such claims? One thing is for sure: if you claim you've been invited to join then you are a liar.

L.In D. I take umbrage at the liar bit. A Master lodge member asked me to join. This man came to our home often, so don't shoot your mouth off. "Join the lodge, it will be a big help for you, I have known you long enough" (reply) "Thanks but no thanks not enough time" (1970) That's how I remember the invite. NObody would admit worship of Lucifer, how about Satan? is he God Of All Things? Is the saying " get on your goat" a mason thing.

[Glite]

The God of Freemasonry, is whatever Supreme Being you happen to believe in.

There is no goat, although, if thats your thing............I'm not here to judge.

In fairness to Old Bob, just because the rule is to not solicit, that does not mean that all Masons follow the rule.

[LightinDarkness]

L.In D. I take umbrage at the liar bit. A Master lodge member asked me to join. This man came to our home often, so don't shoot your mouth off. "Join the lodge, it will be a big help for you, I have known you long enough" (reply) "Thanks but no thanks not enough time" (1970) That's how I remember the invite. NObody would admit worship of Lucifer, how about Satan? is he God Of All Things? Is the saying " get on your goat" a mason thing.

1) There is no such thing as a "Master lodge member."
2) Again, it is hilarious to observe that EVERYONE seems to have been "invited" to a organization which prides itself on inviting no one.
3) Actually, some people do worship satan. They are small cults, but they do exist. The Church of Satan does not though, its more of a philosophy devoted to following your own will. No person who worships satan can be a freemason, because satan is by definition not a Supreme Being.
4) Anything having to do with goats is something made up by anti-masons and the Taxil hoax. Masons occasionally use it as a joke because it is, quite frankly, absurd.

[dudalb]

Jews in space?

I always regretted that Mel Brooks made "Spaceballs" instead of "Jews In Space".

[Akhenaten]

L.In D. I take umbrage at the liar bit.


There's a simple solution to that.



A Master lodge member asked me to join.


Are you able to explain what a Master lodge member is?



This man came to our home often, so don't shoot your mouth off.


PKB, mate, and a really obvious one at that.



"Join the lodge, it will be a big help for you, I have known you long enough" (reply) "Thanks but no thanks not enough time" (1970) That's how I remember the invite.


What you're claiming to remember is nothing more than being given some advice, and giving one of your typically well thought-out responses.

The bit I've bolded is your real problem though. Consider your credibility here, add 38 years and see if you can figure out the value of your claim.



NObody would admit worship of Lucifer, how about Satan? is he God Of All Things?


You're frothing mate. Do you have your meds handy?

Do you really think there aren't any openly practicing Lucifer- or Satan-worshippers? Try these:


The Church of Lucifer (http://www.luciferian.org/)

The Church of Satan (http://www.churchofsatan.com/)


Could you be wrong in your assertion?



Is the saying " get on your goat" a mason thing.


No, it's a bigot thing.

[LightinDarkness]

Do you really think there aren't any openly practicing Lucifer- or Satan-worshippers? Try these

You are of course quite right, but just one small thing I have to point out before Bob replies - as I have stated else where, the "Church of Lucifer" doesn't worship any supernatural being per say but are simply following the whole thelma philosophy. However, it still demonstrates that - contrary to what OldBob thinks, people do freely and publicly associate themselves with Lucifer :)

[Akhenaten]

You are of course quite right, but just one small thing I have to point out before Bob replies - as I have stated else where, the "Church of Lucifer" doesn't worship any supernatural being per say but are simply following the whole thelma philosophy. However, it still demonstrates that - contrary to what OldBob thinks, people do freely and publicly associate themselves with Lucifer :)


Thanks for the correction. I should have read the CoL site more closely myself and just gone with the Satanists.


Cheers,

Dave

[Old Bob]

One question for the Mason's on this thread. What does the treasurer invest the money collected in? Hedge funds, Gold? Or is there a Mason special bank creating money at will. Also are the temples rate and tax free like churches and can one get a discount on goats?(just kidding)

[fromdownunder]

One question for the Mason's on this thread. What does the treasurer invest the money collected in? Hedge funds, Gold? Or is there a Mason special bank creating money at will. Also are the temples rate and tax free like churches and can one get a discount on goats?(just kidding)

Well, Bob, siince you have previously claimed on this and other threads that you know all about the Masons, have read their secrets, and you are now asking questions about them, that would mean that one of you is a liar.

Which is it? In simple only sylable terms (so even you understand tha anglish)

"when did you lie - then or now?"

And, "just kidding?". Ha! You are so innocent of humour, you would not even know kidding from Kidman.

Norm

[Old Bob]

I wanted to see what rot you would come up with Norm. Reading your post, your a bit rattled old mate time for a dose of brotherly love.

[gtc]

Yes Old Bob. You are obviously on to him. Keep pressing him and he'll admit everything soon.

[LightinDarkness]

One question for the Mason's on this thread. What does the treasurer invest the money collected in? Hedge funds, Gold? Or is there a Mason special bank creating money at will. Also are the temples rate and tax free like churches and can one get a discount on goats?(just kidding)

Neither. Most lodges don't have enough money to invest in hedge funds, and it would be extremely stupid to invest in gold (gold is a woo-woo thing). After all the building's bills are paid for and half of incoming money is given to charity, my particular lodge has about $15,000 left this year. All of it is sitting in a money market, as the majority is terrified of risking even a cent after the recent few months (personally I think its time to buy, buy, buy - but older guys are risk averse).

The only goat you'll find in a temple are in your mind. Do you have a fetish thing for goats, Bob?

[fromdownunder]

I wanted to see what rot you would come up with Norm. Reading your post, your a bit rattled old mate time for a dose of brotherly love.


eeewwww, Bob don't be gross - and on a Public Board too!, Sorry "old mate" I'm not that type.

Norm

[LightinDarkness]

eeewwww, Bob don't be gross - and on a Public Board too!, Sorry "old mate" I'm not that type.

Norm

Bob seems to like to project his fantasies onto everyone else. He has a obsession with goats (and no Bob, I don't want to know why) and seems to really get into inferring everyone is a homosexual.

Bob - look, its 2008. Its OK for you to be gay. Times have changed. However, your whole "goat" thing is still illegal in most civilized countries. I would not advertise you pursue your "interests" on that one.

[Old Bob]

Good keep your back to the wall Norm. It's not the petty cash xmas fund I was asking about. Freemasonry is word wide, owning institutions and of course the Temples, the question is for the benefit of non masons. Does the cult pay rates and taxes and does each lodge have a ABN number or do we as people support the shenanigans. O and the goat bit for L.in D. you can't know your nick name. (Goat Riders) yes I know it's crude. But if you mess with the symbols and set up the lay out of Washington with the never ending five point star, pentagon centers and all that good stuff what do you expect.

[LightinDarkness]

Good keep your back to the wall Norm. It's not the petty cash xmas fund I was asking about. Freemasonry is word wide, owning institutions and of course the Temples, the question is for the benefit of non masons. Does the cult pay rates and taxes and does each lodge have a ABN number or do we as people support the shenanigans. O and the goat bit for L.in D. you can't know your nick name. (Goat Riders) yes I know it's crude. But if you mess with the symbols and set up the lay out of Washington with the never ending five point star, pentagon centers and all that good stuff what do you expect.

As freemasonry is not a cult I am not sure whether cults pay taxes. I do know that freemasonry, being a fraternity run for charitable purposes which is not-for-profit, is tax exempt. Much like the Elk's Club, the Rotary, or your local college sorority. Perhaps you do not like to support charity work, but most people do.

And you have way to many delusions about how much money freemasonry has. My entire lodge's budget for the year is about $5,000. We have $15,000 in non-building assets, and the lodge itself is worth about $130,000.00. Many lodges don't even own their own buildings, and I've seen lodge budgets for less than $1,000 a year before.

As for your obsession compulsive disorder with goats - hey man, whatever gets your juices flowing. I think its a bit disgusting and frankly as a animal rights person it harms the animal, but as long as you keep it to just your personal fantasies whatever works for you. Just stop fantasizing about it on this board.

Finally, Masons did not "set up" anything in Washington. The supposed "5 pointed star" is missing an entire leg when you look at the actual map, and nothing else exists that suggests masonic influence. What you have is a whole bunch of streets converging at angles in a very developed city, so you can make up lots of random symbols if you want to. They don't really exist.

[fullflavormenthol]

...and I've seen lodge budgets for less than $1,000 a year before.



Probably lodges like the one in the town I grew up in, the one my grandfather had belonged too. I think the entire lodge was just a bunch of poor farmers with really low overhead. These weren't exactly people that were plotting world domination...just a bunch of people who liked hanging out; and getting away from the wife every other Thursday.

No offence to any Freemasons.

[LightinDarkness]

Probably lodges like the one in the town I grew up in, the one my grandfather had belonged too. I think the entire lodge was just a bunch of poor farmers with really low overhead. These weren't exactly people that were plotting world domination...just a bunch of people who liked hanging out; and getting away from the wife every other Thursday.

No offence to any Freemasons.

Yep, sounds exactly like the type of lodge I am referring to. Usually small, rural, where the members meet in a building owned by another member.

Of course, I am often surprised by the amount of intellectual brilliance and insight shown by brothers who appear outside of the lodge to be very "every-day" folkish. It has really taught me the importance of not judging a book by its cover. I have had the most enlightening and intellectually stimulating conversations about masonic philosophy with very large farmers in overalls that were masons - far more than I've had with masons that have PhD's in philosophy or work for investment banks.

[fullflavormenthol]

Yep, sounds exactly like the type of lodge I am referring to. Usually small, rural, where the members meet in a building owned by another member.

Of course, I am often surprised by the amount of intellectual brilliance and insight shown by brothers who appear outside of the lodge to be very "every-day" folkish. It has really taught me the importance of not judging a book by its cover. I have had the most enlightening and intellectually stimulating conversations about masonic philosophy with very large farmers in overalls that were masons - far more than I've had with masons that have PhD's in philosophy or work for investment banks.
Don't get me wrong. I have a high opinion of those members, and their families; often I learned of people that were widows of former members. I was hated in my former town I grew up in. I had long hair, and was notorious for contradicting the social norms of my home town.

It was people from the lodge who were actually nice to me, and widows of former members who were nice to me. They weren't the only ones, but of any one group they were the ones that didn't look down on me. So while I might talk about them as "poor farmers", these were the type of people that still understood the value of picking up a book in their spare time and learning. I may be going off to grad school, but education can be attained by just learning.

[LightinDarkness]

Don't get me wrong. I have a high opinion of those members, and their families; often I learned of people that were widows of former members. I was hated in my former town I grew up in. I had long hair, and was notorious for contradicting the social norms of my home town.

It was people from the lodge who were actually nice to me, and widows of former members who were nice to me. They weren't the only ones, but of any one group they were the ones that didn't look down on me. So while I might talk about them as "poor farmers", these were the type of people that still understood the value of picking up a book in their spare time and learning. I may be going off to grad school, but education can be attained by just learning.

Reading my post and your reply, I think I might have accidentally insinuated that you somehow were judging incorrectly - sorry, that was not my intention. It was just a random musing point about myself separately from what you had said. Of course I agree with you that the masons are quite incapable of ruling the world - we can't even agree on what type of coffee to brew after the meetings :) But I am glad to see your experience with the lodge members was positive - that is the way it should be.

[fullflavormenthol]

Reading my post and your reply, I think I might have accidentally insinuated that you somehow were judging incorrectly - sorry, that was not my intention. It was just a random musing point about myself separately from what you had said. Of course I agree with you that the masons are quite incapable of ruling the world - we can't even agree on what type of coffee to brew after the meetings :) But I am glad to see your experience with the lodge members was positive - that is the way it should be.
Oh, no I didn't take your reply as anything bad. I was actually correcting my earlier statement so that it didn't downplay people. My overall point is that from my experience Masons are just your normal everyday people, regardless of their position in life. I think Old Bob is fixated on the notion that all Masons are rich and powerful, or that there is a upper class within Freemasonry. Ignoring the fact that a Millionare and his gardner can both be Masons, and within the lodge they are completely equal. The CT'ists ignore the basic ideal that every fraternity I have encountered is based on, the Masons more than the college fraternity.

These are not people I am really worried about. If any conspiracy is taking place within Freemasonry, it is a very public conspiracy to help the larger community through charitable works.