Franken narrowly trails in Minnesota counting.

[BenBurch]

This isn't a recount yet, just counting of the provisional, absentee and undervotes, but the race has narrowed to 209 votes.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/11/minnesota_senate_recount_heats.html?hpid=news-col-blogs

But a hand recount is coming as this is an extraordinarily narrow margin!

No way at all of telling which way it will fall once votes are examined by eye rather than the notoriously-unreliable optical scanners.

[Brendy]

I really hope Franken wins. I love his books. He's such an intelligent person. "Lies and the lieing liars that tell them" was my favorite.

[jj]

Oh, pestilence and bother.

Not Franken... I just can't wait to see the first bill he writes. Maybe he'll get Tina Fay to help write it.

He needs to cite his, um, experience for this post, methinks.

[linusrichard]

Not Franken... I just can't wait to see the first bill he writes. Maybe he'll get Tina Fay to help write it.


I can't wait to see the first (substantive) bill any senator writes. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime, however.

[Pantaz]

I'm really sick of celebrities jumping into politics.

[Smackety]

I'm really sick of celebrities jumping into politics.

Why? They seem like related professions to me?

[CapelDodger]

Not Franken... I just can't wait to see the first bill he writes.

I can't wait to see his contributions to Senatorial debate.

Maybe he'll get Tina Fay to help write it.

Or maybe not. Do they have a relationship going or something?

He needs to cite his, um, experience for this post, methinks.

No, he doesn't. Anybody can run for office however inexperienced they are. As long as they're old enough and satisfy residency requirements, of course.

[Coffee]

I'm not sure how Al Franken would do as a senator but he did a fantastic job playing the baggage handler in the movie "Trading Places".

[Jeff Corey]

I'm really sick of celebrities jumping into politics.

Me, too. Next we will see lawyers doing it.

[kallsop]

At the rate Smalley Franken is manufacturing new votes, he's a lock.

[godofpie]

I really hope Franken wins. I love his books. He's such an intelligent person. "Lies and the lieing liars that tell them" was my favorite.

I've been re-reading "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot". I really like books that can make me laugh out loud.

CapelDodger: I can see him adding entertainment value to the floor of the House.

[davefoc]

I'm a fan of Franken's also.

He was easily my favorite radio host. I genuinely looked forward to his show.

I donated $20 to his campaign and I was disappointed to see that he'd lost but happy to see that he might not have.

The donation thing was a mixed deal for me. I got a form letter signed by his wife thanking me as a fellow progressive. I found that slightly annoying. I'm a life long Republican and I'm not a progressive by most definitions I suspect. I am not a fan of the current crop of Republicans and I am a fan of her husband but I think leftyseargent and I could find plenty to disagree about.

Secondly, it was against my interest in the sense that if he's a senator he probably won't start his old radio show up again and as noted above I really enjoyed his radio shows.

Thirdly, I have been barraged by requests for campaign donations from the Franken campaign. I've gotten three pitches even after the election trying to gather up funds to hire the lawyers to fight over the recount. OK, I'm a California boy, let the Minnesotans pay for their own damn lawyers to fight over the recounts. Sorry Al, on that one.

But go Al, go Al. The country needs you to help Obama bail out Detroit after the Democrats have destroyed Detroit with their special interest Union legislation and their ideas about employer funded health care. I feel like bailing out unions, executives, and car dealerships that have failed to make critical changes for years now is an excellent use of my tax dollars. It's so much better to see the country's money squandered on Democratic cronyism instead of being squandered on Republican cronyism.

ETA: Franken was my second biggest election disappointment. My biggest by far was the passage of prop 8 in CA, the anti-gay marriage initiative. Besides that I was disappointed that as usual that my fellow CA voters approved almost every bond measure. Where the hell do the people think the money is going to come from to pay for all that stuff? CA is broke and my fellow citizens just voted to make it more broke.

[gtc]

Where the hell do the people think the money is going to come from to pay for all that stuff? CA is broke and my fellow citizens just voted to make it more broke.

Levying fines on all the married homosexuals of course.

[davefoc]

Levying fines on all the married homosexuals of course.:)

[Upchurch]

Levying fines on all the married homosexuals of course.
Fixed it for you.

[pgwenthold]

I'm really sick of celebrities jumping into politics.


In terms of celebs actually holding office, isn't this mostly the domain of the republicans? Not an exclusive list or anything, but when I think of celebrities in politics, I think of

Reagan - republican
Fred Grandy - republican
Sonny Bono - republican
Arnold - republican
Clint Eastwood - republican, right? (granted, only a mayor but big celeb)
Steve Largent (Seattle wide receiver) - republican

Who are the democratic celebrities holding office?

[jadebox]

In terms of celebs actually holding office, isn't this mostly the domain of the republicans? Not an exclusive list or anything, but when I think of celebrities in politics, I think of

Reagan - republican
Fred Grandy - republican
Sonny Bono - republican
Arnold - republican
Clint Eastwood - republican, right? (granted, only a mayor but big celeb)
Steve Largent (Seattle wide receiver) - republican


Actor-politicians (Thanks to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_actor-politicians)):

Alan Autry (Mayor of Fresno, California)
Raj Bhakta (Republican) (unsuccessful candidate for U.S. House of Representatives, Pennsylvania)
Sonny Bono (Republican) (U.S. Representative, 44th District of California)
Shirley Temple Black (Republican) (U.S. diplomat; Ambassador to Ghana and Czechoslovakia, Chief of Protocol of the United States)
Clint Eastwood (Republican, but describes himself as Libertarian) (Mayor of Carmel, California)
Al Franken (Democrat) (Running for Senate in Minnesota)
Helen Gahagan (Democrat) (U.S. Representative, 14th District of California)
John Gavin (Republican) (U.S. diplomat; Ambassador to Mexico)
Fred Grandy (Republican) (U.S. Representative, Iowa)
Ben Jones (Democrat) (U.S. Congressman, 4th District of Georgia)
Sheila Kuehl (Democrat) (California State Senator)
Nancy Kulp (Democrat) (unsuccessful nominee for U.S. House of Representatives, Pennsylvania)
Robert Montgomery
George Murphy (Republican) (U.S. Senator, California)
Stephen Peace (Democrat) (California State Senator)
Ronald Reagan (Republican) (Governor of California, President of the United States)
Arnold Schwarzenegger (Republican) (Governor of California)
Jerry Springer (Democrat)(Mayor of Cincinnati, Ohio)
Fred Thompson (Republican) (U.S. Senator, Tennessee and unsuccessful presidential nominee))
Jesse Ventura (formerly Reform; currently Independence Party of Minnesota) (Governor of Minnesota)
Ralph Waite (Democrat) (unsuccessful nominee for U.S. House of Representatives)
Frank Britton Wenzel (Mayor of Malverne, New york

About the same number of Democrats and Republicans, but the Republican actors get elected more often.

I couldn't find a list of sports figures in politics, but I think they may outnumber actors ....

-- Roger

[pgwenthold]

About the same number of Democrats and Republicans, but the Republican actors get elected more often.


And the Republicans are far, far more "celebrity." Nancy Kulp? OK, that's the democrat version of Fred Grandy.

And Jerry Springer was mayor BEFORE he was celebrity.

Ben Jones I probably know in some way, but it's too generic to say how. The rest of them? They aren't running on their celebrity status, that's for sure. Raj Bahkta? Stephen Peace? Not quite on the A list...or B list...or D list (that's Kathy Griffin, right?)

[dudalb]

If you count Atheletes, Kevin Johnson, NBA Star, was elected Mayor of Sacramento last week.

[dudalb]

If elected, Al Franken won' t get as good a cameo as Senator Leahy got in "The Dark Knight".

[daredelvis]

George Murphy (Republican) (U.S. Senator, California)


"-But Mr. Murphy is the star
-he's done the best by far
-Oh gee it's great
-at last we have a senator who can really sing and dance..."

Al's book Why Not Me? is among my favorites. Very prophetic.

Daredelvis

[Charlie Monoxide]

If you count Atheletes, Kevin Johnson, NBA Star, was elected Mayor of Sacramento last week.Wasn't JC Watts a big deal in the Canadian Football League before he jumped into politics and subsequent punditry ....

Charle (as a Republican) Monoxide

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh, pestilence and bother.

Not Franken... I just can't wait to see the first bill he writes. Maybe he'll get Tina Fay to help write it.

He needs to cite his, um, experience for this post, methinks.Franken is intelligent and well informed about the issues. I have been listening to him for the last several years and have read his books. Why do you discredit someone you seem to know so little about?

[gdnp]

As celebrities go, he has certainly demonstrated more interest and knowledge about politics over an extended period of time before throwing his hat into the ring than most. He has better credentials than the typical multimillionaire businessman senate candidate.

[BenBurch]

As celebrities go, he has certainly demonstrated more interest and knowledge about politics over an extended period of time before throwing his hat into the ring than most. He has better credentials than the typical multimillionaire businessman senate candidate.

My only reservation is that he has been nasty on a personal level to almost everybody I know who has had to deal with him.

[CptColumbo]

Sen. Jack Kemp is also an athlete turned politician.

Both sides in the Senate campaign here are acting like asses IMO. Sen. Coleman wants absentee ballots that were found in a election judges car (but still sealed) to not be counted and Franken based an accusation of voters being disenfranchised on a rumor that turned out to be false (a elderly woman with Parkinson's being disqualified due to her signature not matching the one on record). I just want it to be over.

[Cicero]

Franken is intelligent and well informed about the issues. I have been listening to him for the last several years and have read his books. Why do you discredit someone you seem to know so little about?

If the putrid putz Stuart Smalley ever gets to the Senate, he could keep Barney Frank company on the Senate Banking and Finance Committee. That $70,000 Smalley owed in back taxes makes him eminently qualified.

[gdnp]

If the putrid putz Stuart Smalley ever gets to the Senate, he could keep Barney Frank company on the Senate Banking and Finance Committee. That $70,000 Smalley owed in back taxes makes him eminently qualified.

You're just jealous because, gosh darn it, people like him.

[linusrichard]

If the putrid putz Stuart Smalley ever gets to the Senate, he could keep Barney Frank company on the Senate Banking and Finance Committee. That $70,000 Smalley owed in back taxes makes him eminently qualified.

Wait -- Barney Frank is on the "Senate Banking and Finance Committee"? Don't they usually only let senators on those committees?

[Skeptic Ginger]

My only reservation is that he has been nasty on a personal level to almost everybody I know who has had to deal with him.You're speaking of Franken? That isn't the impression I have gotten.

[BenBurch]

You're speaking of Franken? That isn't the impression I have gotten.

Yeah. Now, maybe the people I know are in the small subset of people he's been nasty to, but that's all I have to go on.

[Bindamel]

As the recount continues, Minnesota Public Radio (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2008/11/19_challenged_ballots/) has some examples of the challenged ballots.

After seeing the ballots themselves, and some of the arguments made for/against them by both sides, all I can do is shake my head.

[daredelvis]

Sen. Jack Kemp is also an athlete turned politician.

Both sides in the Senate campaign here are acting like asses IMO. Sen. Coleman wants absentee ballots that were found in a election judges car (but still sealed) to not be counted and Franken based an accusation of voters being disenfranchised on a rumor that turned out to be false (a elderly woman with Parkinson's being disqualified due to her signature not matching the one on record). I just want it to be over.
The story about the ballots in the judges car have been retracted.
Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty told Fox's Chris Wallace that there was no truth to the rumor that ballots were found in the trunk of an election officials car. The Minnesota Governor said that he knew of no suspicious activity in the tight race between Sen. Norm Coleman and Al Franken. "As of this moment we know of no actual evidence of wrongdoing or fraud in the process," Said Pawlenty.

Earlier this week, Pawlenty told Fox's Megyn Kelly that he found suspicion in the story of the found ballots. Pawlenty said, "There has not been a good explanation for that, Kelly. That's a very good question, but they've been included in the count pile which is concerning."
Link (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/pawlenty-no-evidence-wrongdoing-mn-election)

Daredelvis

[tomwaits]

My dad has fond memories of Franken doing a USO show in Kuwait. It was right after Rumsfeld made his "you go to war with the army you have" statement. Franken showed up in what he claimed was body armor he got from Rumsfeld: it was two trash can lids on his front and back. The crowd got a real kick out of it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The story about the ballots in the judges car have been retracted.

Link (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/pawlenty-no-evidence-wrongdoing-mn-election)

DaredelvisColeman's lawyer Fritz Knack had originally pushed the story of the found ballots. David Brauer of the Minnesota Post debunked the idea of ballot tampering. Nevertheless, pundits and reporters have continued to cite the story.

Kind of like Faux News putting John Fund on over and over with his claims of voter fraud long after Fund's whole book was debunked as the real fraud.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's Franken's lawyer's letter the the editor of the Wall St Jnl (now owned by Faux's Rupert Murdoch, I might add).

There's Nothing Unusual About the Minnesota Recount (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122723054779146549.html)I write to set straight just a few of the many false statements made in your Nov. 12 editorial "Mischief in Minnesota?"Franken's lawyer reports a full explanation of the faked claims of voter fraud.

I think Coleman is just hedging his bets. If the recount shows he really lost he is going to want to cry foul and if he wins he can just say the cheaters failed. He doesn't appear to give a rat's ass that the actual vote count is determined.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Recount, Day 3: Coleman hanging on to thin lead (http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/)Republican Sen. Norm Coleman is hanging on to his whisker-thin lead over Democrat Al Franken. With 64 percent of the 2.9 million ballots recounted, Coleman is ahead by 120 votes. [Last update: November 21, 2008 - 9:50 PM]

[BenBurch]

Here is the recount page on the Minnesota Secretary of State's web site;

http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp

Can't tell much by these totals though.

[CptColumbo]

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/34880634.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUX

The lead, with about 60% recounted, has now dropped to 115 votes when comparing totals in precincts where the new count is complete.

They have a couple of example of disputed ballots and I'm glad I'm not on that commitee.

BTW about 75 ballots were lost, but later found in a the voting machine in Duluth. It was locked, therefore -so far- no one is disputing it.

[gdnp]

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/34880634.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUX

The lead, with about 60% recounted, has now dropped to 115 votes when comparing totals in precincts where the new count is complete.

They have a couple of example of disputed ballots and I'm glad I'm not on that commitee.

BTW about 75 ballots were lost, but later found in a the voting machine in Duluth. It was locked, therefore -so far- no one is disputing it.

Doesn't sound to hopeful for Franken. The recount seems to be following the original pretty closely. If he's only picked up 100 votes from 60% it will be hard to get 115 more from 40%

From what I saw of the disputed ballots I didn't have much trouble deciding. In most cases the voter's intent was either pretty obvious or pretty muddled.

[applecorped]

Franken's best work was in The Rutles movie.

[CptColumbo]

Doesn't sound to hopeful for Franken. The recount seems to be following the original pretty closely. If he's only picked up 100 votes from 60% it will be hard to get 115 more from 40%

From what I saw of the disputed ballots I didn't have much trouble deciding. In most cases the voter's intent was either pretty obvious or pretty muddled.There are 1,525 challenge ballots between the campaigns and much of the recount has been in Republican leaning districts.

I didn't vote for either, but I don't want Sen. Coleman returning.

[BenBurch]

Franken projected to win recount by 27 votes;

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/projection-franken-to-win-recount-by-27.html

I fully expect a challenge by Coleman in the courts if Franken wins the recount.

[Ausmerican]

Franken projected to win recount by 27 votes;

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/projection-franken-to-win-recount-by-27.html

I fully expect a challenge by Coleman in the courts if Franken wins the recount.

Ben surely you are not suggesting that Coleman would not just concede like he was urging Franken to do? Although I noticed he changed his tune on that once the recount started and there was a chance he might end up in that position himself.

[davefoc]

One thing the problems with this very close races for senator has shown is that the US is still very susceptible to a repeat of the 2000 election problems in the event of a close race for the president.

The problem seems to be fairly significant. Assume the race for president was going to be decided by Minnesota and the election was as close as the senate race is. Neither presidential candidate could be working full out to get his transition team in place. The winner of a race as close as the Minnesota done with paper ballots can not be definitively determined. There seems to be just too much ambiguity with ballots and counting procedures for humans to reliably count millions of ballots with the kind of precision required. So it all ends up in the courts again. No matter what the procedures, the supporters of the losing side will feel that they have been screwed and faith in the impartiality of the judicial system will be undermined.

And there is even the outside chance of government destabilization as the chaotic environment encourages violence.

It would be nice if these problems could be fixed at some point. I would have thought that eight years would have been enough to solve most of these problems but given what is going on in Minnesota and Alaska that would seem not to be the case.

[CptColumbo]

Coleman's lead increased to 180.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/34965084.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUX

IIRC there was a case in New Hampshire (or somewhere in New England) in the mid-20th century where it was even closer (10-20 votes) and each recount came up with a different winner. When no winner was declared by the swearing in day the Senate declared the seat "vacant" and a run-off election was held.

Franken would probably fair better in a run-off, since Sen. Dean Barkley (I) took 15% (or so) of the vote.

[RandFan]

It would be nice if these problems could be fixed at some point. I would have thought that eight years would have been enough to solve most of these problems but given what is going on in Minnesota and Alaska that would seem not to be the case.Hey Dave, you do realize that the problem is one that is, in part, inherent to quantifying large numbers. No system is error free. There will always be error bars.

[gdnp]

Hey Dave, you do realize that the problem is one that is, in part, inherent to quantifying large numbers. No system is error free. There will always be error bars.

well, if the frequency of errors drops to a number lower than the number of ballots (one in a billion), then there should rarely be a problem. The question is whether it is possible to build a system with an error rate that low. Obviously not when dealing with paper ballots. The errors in the disputed ballots all appear to be related to errors by the voter.

[Upchurch]

Honestly, I don't much care how this goes, one way or the other. I would, however love to see the vein in O'Reilly's forehead finally burst if Franken were to actually win.

[dudalb]

It would be nice if these problems could be fixed at some point. I would have thought that eight years would have been enough to solve most of these problems but given what is going on in Minnesota and Alaska that would seem not to be the case.

The system seems to be functioning as smoothly in Minnesota as you can expect.
You will always have, I don't care what kind of system you have, people who screw up their ballots through sheer ignrorance, and a few damaged ballots.
davefoc, you seem to expect perfection in a system designed by a Human Being. Forget it.
The election in Minnesota is just freaking close, that's all.

[dudalb]

Franken projected to win recount by 27 votes;

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/projection-franken-to-win-recount-by-27.html

I fully expect a challenge by Coleman in the courts if Franken wins the recount.


Hell, with just 27 voters margin in a state with a sizable population, I would challenge also.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'd like to know what the real recount is. Apparently the challenged ballots can make the recount look skewed.

Currently Coleman is gaining. (http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/) But that can just be because he challenged legit ballots just to skew the recount. If that is true I wonder if there is a plan in there, such as making it look like a sudden batch of votes for Franken at the end changed the outcome.

Could Coleman be that devious? I don't know what he is thinking.

Are people that dumb to fall for something like that when the reason for the change at the end is discussed? Yes.

Or is there something else going on like Coleman will claim Franken's win is based on questionable ballots even if they aren't?

Or is the report which said, the ballots Coleman has challenged are not irregular while the ones Franken challenged are, just a partisan report?

Or is Franken just falling further behind regardless of the ballots challenged and therefore removed from the current count?


Sources of what led to my questions:
Nov 19, Notes from the recount…. (http://politicalblogs.startribune.com/bigquestionblog/?p=1229)Based on early returns from the recount, it appears that a fair amount of the change in vote totals is the result of challenged ballots. A challenged ballot is taken out of the mix, temporarily at least, and the effect is to reduce the total for the candidate who got that vote.

But I can't find the comment I read about most of Franken's challenges being more reasonable and instead found this comment:
In Minn. recount, disputed Senate ballots could quickly shift margin between Franken, Coleman (http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/34867009.html?page=2&c=y)"In my mind — I can only say in my mind — it was pretty obvious what the voter's intent was with almost all of the ballots they challenged," said Sam Modderman, the auditor in Kandiyohi County, where Coleman lost four votes and Franken held even.

Pipestone County Auditor Joyce Steinhoff said she saw several challenges she thought were frivolous, but she decided not to push back too hard. "I'd rather have it overruled by the canvassing board, then have them say I deprived them of their right to challenge," she said.These were individual voting precincts and not comments generic to the whole batch of challenged ballots. But if generally true and Coleman has ~130 more challenged ballots than Franken today then Coleman's lead is much smaller than it appears.

[Madalch]

They should wrestle for it.

[BenBurch]

Hell, with just 27 voters margin in a state with a sizable population, I would challenge also.

Ditto.

[UserGoogol]

Franken projected to win recount by 27 votes;

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/projection-franken-to-win-recount-by-27.html

I fully expect a challenge by Coleman in the courts if Franken wins the recount.

It should be noted that Nate notes in that posting that that's 27 votes with a fairly high margin of error. The odds are fairly close to 50-50, but Franken gets slightly more votes on average.

[BenBurch]

It should be noted that Nate notes in that posting that that's 27 votes with a fairly high margin of error. The odds are fairly close to 50-50, but Franken gets slightly more votes on average.

True enough. I think this is an election we can point to for YEARS when somebody says "I'm not going to vote, my one vote can't make a difference."