The Cold Reading/Psychic Medium Challenge

[Ersby]

It’s been often requested and is long overdue, and I’m not convinced this is the best format, but here goes all the same. Five transcripts, some are “genuine psychics” and some are overt cold readers. All you have to do is decide which is which. Of course, if you’re a skeptic, you’ll think they’re all cold readings, in which case, I’d like you to decide which is best. Who knows, if the favourite ones turn out to be psychic while the less favoured are CR, perhaps that’ll demonstrate something.

Now a few details:

All are edited by me, but only such that the format of the reading (telephone, TV show, radio show, internet) is disguised, and that the more emotional reactions from the psychic readings (and humorous asides from the CR) have been lost. This may make the sitter’s seem a little lifeless, but it was necessary to ensure that all readings were treated the same.

However, all the wording of the guesses and responses (ie, the information of the reading) is intact and remains in the order in which it came through. None are edited (to my knowledge) in the commonly understood sense that entire sentences between medium and sitter in the middle of an exchange are excised.

All are on the internet somewhere, so there’s a possibility that you could search for them, but where’s the fun in that?

I’d like to thank those who helped me put this together. You know who you are.

[Ersby]

MEDIUM1: Okay... I’m sensing a male on the other side of the same age as you. The same generation, at least. He’s telling me about Michael. Who’s Michael? There’s a connection to that name here. And also he saying you need to learn how to cook. Maybe that sounds a little rude, but have you been learning to cook properly or thinking about it? He says perhaps you should.

SITTER1: Well, no, no Michael in my life at the moment, though I've known a few in the past. As for cooking, I handle the cooking for the girlfriend and I’m always looking for new dishes to create.

MEDIUM1: Okay, this guy is telling me you both knew Michael, and this would be a few years back. This was when you were living in the flat you didn’t like with the heating that didn’t work properly.

SITTER1: I didn't know a Michael then.

MEDIUM1: Wait a second. Is the cooking is a new thing for you? You never bothered that much when you were single, is that right? Because I’m being shown these pots and pans and they all look new. He’s telling me it’s a new talent, and you’re quite proud of it. And do you have a stuffed toy that sits in the kitchen? Up on a shelf? And do you like to cook alone? I mean without anyone interfering.

SITTER1: There’s no stuffed animal in the kitchen. Yes, I prefer not to be interfered with while cooking. And my interest in cooking is relatively recent.

MEDIUM1: You know, I’m still seeing an animal in the kitchen. Maybe it’s like a statue or picture, but there’s some animal thing there. Also, there’s something broken in the kitchen, is that right? Something you should really replace, but it kind of works, so you stick with it. In fact, I just realised: this is the old kitchen in the flat with the heating problems they’re showing me.

SITTER1: The kitchen in that flat had a cow picture hanging on the wall. It was my grandmother's. And the microwave sort of worked. It was VERY loud. I’ve recently replaced it.

MEDIUM1: Right. There’s an important date for you in October or on the 10th of a month, because I’m being shown a ten.

SITTER1: My girlfriend’s birthday is the 10 th of April.

MEDIUM1: And there’s something about you doing a training course. Not participating, but actually training someone else. Is that a recent thing?

SITTER1: My friend is being a temp receptionist at work this week. We worked on how to do something today.

MEDIUM1: The grandmother – the one who owned the picture – she’s passed now, hasn’t she? I feel she’s coming through. She was brought through by the other spirit who’s pulling back now. He’s saying “MR” as he fades, so I think those are the initials of the mutual friend.

SITTER1: "MR" could be Michael Rxxxx, a friend I'm no longer in touch with.

MEDIUM1: Okay, so he’s the connection between you. And your grandmother passed a while ago. She’s showing me a boy, brown hair, round face, big eyes. Who would that be? Who was the small boy in the family when she was around?

SITTER1: I can’t think of a small boy. All her grandkids were teenagers or older when she passed. Hmm, could be my other grandma, also passed long ago, had a very young grandson when she passed.

MEDIUM1: you have to remember I’m old, at least I feel like it anyway, so a small boy could be as much as thirteen or fourteen. And is there a favourite dish that you cook? I’m being shown pasta, so would that be the kind of food you do well?

SITTER1: While I fix pasta at least once a week, I'm better at baking fish. Still no on the boy. Just nothing on that one.

MEDIUM1: And I don’t know if you know this, but did your grandmother used to sing? Was she the singer in the family? Maybe there’s more than one, but she’s definitely telling me she sang.

SITTER1: The grandma I know best didn't sing. To my knowledge, neither did my other one.

MEDIUM1: She’s still saying she sang. Maybe this was earlier in her life, I don’t know. Are you the hoarder? You’ve kept all kinds of stuff from all times of your life?

SITTER1: Yes, I'm a horrible hoarder. Not as bad as I could be, my girlfriend keeps me in line.

MEDIUM1: Now she’s telling me about the clear-out. Either you’ve done this or are thinking about it, but she’s talking about feeling hemmed in by the stuff you’ve accumulated.

SITTER1: Don't know that I feel a need to get rid of things now, but my girlfriend and I did some clearing out a few months ago.

MEDIUM1: That’s what I’m seeing. She’s says it’s good to let stuff go sometimes. You can’t keep a souvenir of everything. That’s one of the things she’s learnt since she passed: that material possessions don’t define your life and who you are: You do.

[Ersby]

MEDIUM2: OK, who are you trying to connect with?

SITTER2: My cousin.

MEDIUM2: OK. Is this a male figure?

SITTER2: No.

MEDIUM2: OK, I also have a male figure coming through on that side Sara, OK? Is this cousin on Mom's side of the family?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: OK, cause I feel this is on Mom's side of the family. There is another figure there, OK? Is that cousins father passed?

SITTER2: Her Grandfather.

MEDIUM2: OK, fathers/grandfathers mean the same to me. I know that father is coming through here. And the cousin the other you told me female... Where's the breast cancer, please?

SITTER2: Umm... I'm not sure.

MEDIUM2: OK, it doesn't have to be someone who's passed it could be something about a breast cancer scare. There's something about cancer to the chest or breast cancer. It is not a prediction Sara, OK? It's already happened.

SITTER2: OK.

MEDIUM2: And the woman you're trying to connect with...OK. Is this an unexpected passing, please?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: Because I feel as the grandfather comes in here, bringing her through, I feel like I don't have a lot of time to say good-bye to my family, I don't have a lot of time. Her mother is still living, please?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: There's a big please get a hello there, OK? I've got to connect her with her mother. There's a big hello going there, too.

SITTER2: OK.

MEDIUM2: All right... OK Sara, where does the Genie name come in?

SITTER2: Her name is Gina.

MEDIUM2: OK, it's totally her, OK? Please tell her mother... That must be the mothers father that's passed away, the grandfather, do you understand that?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: He's coming through here. I do not like to give the name Mary or John because we all have one in our family, especially Irish catholic... But the name Joseph or John is also being called out, OK?

SITTER2: I ..Yes.

MEDIUM2: It's like J - O, J - O, J - O. I understand that. This girl, there's no pain she's telling me also, OK? This is a very fast passing... And I'm supposed to say I have the dog.

SITTER2: Oh! OK.

MEDIUM2: Do you understand that?

SITTER2: Yes, uh-huh.

MEDIUM2: OK Sara, and one more thing too. A birthday...I'm supposed to... Acknowledge next month she's telling me... Or a passing...or an anniversary... She said go to next month, go to next month. Has she been gone more than two years?

SITTER2: Um, yes.

MEDIUM2: OK, cause I don't feel like she's been over there a lot yet. But Sara, with the greatest respect, I don't feel like she's a cousin to you, I feel like this is a sister.

SITTER2: Right...

MEDIUM2: OK, were you two like really close?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: All right darling, she's fine. Please say hi to her family, OK? Please say hi... She must have a brother living also, correct?

SITTER2: A half brother.

MEDIUM2: OK... But she's fine, even though she passes very fast Sara, OK?

SITTER2: OK.

MEDIUM2: All right. Please tell them that the name came through and she's with the mothers father, OK?

SITTER2: I will.

[Ersby]

SITTER3: My father was killed in Vietnam when I was 3-years-old, so I didn't get a chance to know him. And I had a friend that also died, a best friend, and I can feel her around me when she died, but not my father.

MEDIUM3: What's your dad's name?

SITTER3: Ron.

MEDIUM3: Ron, OK. And is there someone named John, also?

SITTER3: John.

MEDIUM3: The name John that you would know, familiarize yourself with?

SITTER3: No.

MEDIUM3: OK. Keep that name, because your dad is attached to this person, I don't know how. Do you have a medal of his?

SITTER3: Yes.

MEDIUM3: OK. Because he's talking to me about a medal. And it feels like this medal is put someplace very special, he's telling me.

SITTER3: Yes.

MEDIUM3: Do you understand that? I also see pictures all over, he's telling me you have pictures of him everywhere.

SITTER3: Yes.

MEDIUM3: Like there's one particular place where they're all together. Do you understand, like a shrine to him. He's very sports oriented, by the way. He has a lot of vigour and he wants to know he's OK. He's watching a little girl.

SITTER3: Yeah.

MEDIUM3: Do you understand, do you have a little girl?

SITTER3: My niece.

MEDIUM3: Your niece. Because he's watching this little girl, he wants me to tell you. And he said she's blessed, so whatever that means to you. A lovely man, nice man. He looks after you. I think he came back here to do these things, to go through this experience. He's OK. He's OK.

SITTER3: OK.

[Ersby]

MEDIUM4: I’m sensing a male who’s passed, he’s over sixty. It’s hard to place ages, but he’s one of the elders of the family. Not your father, but an uncle or grandfather. I sense he knew his time was coming, because he went to hospital more than once and he’s talking about a Billy or Bobby. A ‘B’ name that’s connected to the family.

SITTER4: There have been two men who died, one whose death may have fit the description and who had reason to be speaking of a Bill. However, he's not closely tied to my life.

MEDIUM4: Also, is your family bilingual? I’m hearing two different languages. Or are you bilingual or studying another language?

SITTER4: My immediate family is not bilingual, although some of the elder generations grew up in families that were. I am studying languages.

MEDIUM4: The guy who died, I don’t know if you’ll know this, but did he die at dusk or dawn? And is there an important date for the family in April or on the 4 th of a month, because I’m seeing a four. And are you the only daughter?

SITTER4: The guy who died was my Great Uncle Rod. I don't know what time of day he died. I can't think of anything about April that stands out, other than my sister and I both have birthdays in it. Nothing leaps to mind about the 4th as a date either. I am, however, one of four children.

MEDIUM4: Okay, good. I think the four thing is related to your birthdays. As for not being an only daughter, would there be some reason why he’d single you out? Was there a time when you felt isolated from the rest of the family, because he’s putting you apart from them. Maybe it’s emotional or physical, but there was a time that you felt apart from the family?

SITTER4: Well, I'm living apart from the rest of my family to go to university. My school happens to be in New Brunswick, the province he lived and died in, although at opposite ends. My mother's family has lived there for a very long time. I'm really working on the independence thing intensively at the moment, but I am very close to my family and that hasn't changed.

MEDIUM4: Uh huh. So -

SITTER4: There was the normal teenage angst, nobody-understand-me-and-I-think-I-wanna-die phase many years ago when yeah, I definitely felt apart, but probably even then less so than everyone else I knew.

MEDIUM4: They’re telling me about the place in the mountains. Did you go on holiday there?

SITTER4: Rod lived next to Sugarloaf Mountain. Whenever we went to see Rod, we'd go play on the mountain as well.

MEDIUM4: Okay, that’s a big validation. Did you lose something on the mountain?

SITTER4: Um… no.

MEDIUM4: That’s strange because I’m getting a feeling that there’s a part of you on the mountain. Did you leave something there on purpose? Like you built or made something and left it behind. That’s kind of the feeling I’m getting.

SITTER4: I can't remember anything that could have been left on the mountain by me, even metaphorically.

MEDIUM4: Okay. I must be messing this up, because they’re still showing me a connection. Meanwhile, I’m hearing a dog barking. Is there a dog passed in the family?

SITTER4: If you mean recently, I certainly hope not. I miss my dog. But there have always been dogs.

MEDIUM4: The dog is linked to your Uncle Rod, so that’d mean it’s either his dog or it was your dog at that time.

SITTER4: I don't remember if he had a dog at the time. I did, but he didn't come with me.

MEDIUM4: Has the dog you owned when you’d go to visit Ron passed? I think that’s the spirit that’s coming through.

SITTER4: Yes.

MEDIUM4: And who’s Sam?

SITTER4: Oddly, I have two answers to that and neither is a person. Samuel was the ghost my friend Krista believed watched over her in her old apartment. When she took in a stray black cat we found in pretty bad condition last year, one of the names she gave him was Samuel, after the ghost.

MEDIUM4: Well, Sam is probably the ghost. He’s describing an apartment, and if it fits with your friend’s, then we’ll know. He’s putting the kitchen and living room together, so either they were both small and next to each other, or they were actually in the same room. And there’s a picture or photo near the TV which is in a corner of the room. And I’m seeing a flowers motif, so there were flowers or a picture or something.

SITTER4: The kitchen and the living room in my friend’s old apartment were one room, and it was tiny. I'll have to ask her about the pictures and flowers because I don't remember. There were pictures all over the place, but I don't remember of what.

MEDIUMS4: Okay, I think we’re on the right track with Sam. He’s saying he got the blame if something went missing or went wrong? He says it wasn’t always him. He’s telling me that your friend was absent minded, that’s all. A bit of a dreamer.

SITTER4: That thing about Sam doesn’t mean anything to me.

MEDIUM4: Okay, well, they’re fading now, but I can hear the name Pat. Someone in the family has that name? It sounds like Pat.

SITTER4: Um, the two names you've given me were Pat and Billy. My Great Uncle Rod was predeceased by his brother Bill, with whom he shared an extremely rare and unpleasant disease which is usually fatal in childhood. They both lived to old age. They had another brother who died in WWII. My grandmother, Pat, is the only of the four siblings still living.

MEDIUM: Okay, so that’s them just saying “hello” to her. Could you pass that message on? Thank you very much.

[Ersby]

MEDIUM5: I have a lady from the world of Spirit, but I'm getting a mother's energy, grandmother or mother,... she had, uh, I would call it salt & pepper hair, she wore it a little bit short, and she's a little on the stout side, she would be about 5'6" or 7". I'm estimating the height, there I may be wrong.

SITTER5: ok

MEDIUM5: and she's coming to you like your mother,... is your mother in Spirit?

SITTER5: no, my mother is still alive.

MEDIUM5: this would be probably be a grandmother, then, or someone that was close to you, like mother, do you recognize the lady?

SITTER5: that's got to be my grandmother

MEDIUM5: you were close with her?

SITTER5: yes, I was pretty close.

MEDIUM5: well, cause she's coming thru to you in a mother's energy, like she nurtured you somewhat, and in her feeling somewhat close to you. So, she's definitely with you, ok?

SITTER5: ok.

MEDIUM5: now, when I touch her energy, she had a, I'm getting a feeling of shortness of breath, did she have difficulty breathing in the latter part of her life?

SITTER5: she was quite old.

MEDIUM5: I'm feeling a lot of, well, it would be almost like a developing pneumonia because of different things, something of this nature, I feel, not necessarily heart related with her but definitely feel my chest area. I think it was probably a complication of say aging and different things set in because I think her last few years of her life she had a lot of medical conditions going on.

SITTER5: yes

MEDIUM5: So what I'm feeling with her was not specific, they probably listed the death as a pulmonary condition I would imagine,... I'm feeling, like in her energy, it is very hard for me to breathe, I feel laboured at breathing, but it doesn't mean it's still there, that means she's letting me know to give you some identification.

SITTER5: ok

MEDIUM5: So if you would check that out, even with your family, you'd probably find that something of this nature did happen, huh,... you know,... oh,... I understand this,... she's been close to you, she's been consoling you, she's wearing black, and when I see that it's like for mourning. I feel she's lovingly supporting you. Those in Spirit, when they depart the physical, don't just leave us.

SITTER5: right

MEDIUM5: So they do support us in various ways, and I feel a comforting energy from her. So, at times, when you are maybe despondent, you'll feel a comforting energy come to you. Do you recognize that?

SITTER5: yes

MEDIUM5: And that is who she is, that is what she is doing. She's a wonderful lady, I like her energy. I would say when you would know her, she's giving me a little more of an indication in her earlier days, she was a bit of a feisty person, it would be that she was somewhat stubborn, do you understand that?

SITTER5: yes

MEDIUM5: The energy I get from her, she wasn't really serious about it, it was kind of like a game with her.

SITTER5: ok

MEDIUM5: So people would take her seriously and she kind of chuckled inwardly about this because her nature was actually pretty open and pretty loving but that was one of her protections, too, she was a very gentle soul. But she did have a feisty nature, this was something she did to keep her from getting too much into an other emotion. Now, and, yes, by the way, she sends you her love, and her greetings. She is glad that you recognize her. She's a very sweet lady and definitely is there with you on your behalf. She sends you love and condolences, yes, but, she also wants you to know that there is a continuation of life, the soul or the energy of that continues. So, that's her basic message to you, ok?

SITTER5: ok

MEDIUM5: She says "it's not over when we think it's over". I guess she had a funny way with words? Is that true?

SITTER5: she spoke a different language, so I didn't pick up all the peculiarities of it.

MEDIUM5: I would say people would kind of chuckle because she might speak a little backwards if that were translated.

SITTER5: ok

MEDIUM5: In the language she is coming from, that would be the way it was spoken, so, I'm not hearing the language, but I'm getting a little bit of awkwardness in the translation, ok?

SITTER5: ok

[Drooper]

My guess is that numbers 2 and 3 are "real psychics" - if you know what I mean.

1, 4 and 5 are admitted cold readers.

[Clancie]

Hi ersby. Great post. Assuming the editing has made no difference, here are my comments.....

My feeling is that these are all readings from professional mediums. Out on a limb here, but frankly I also don't find any of them very evidential, very clearly connected to a particular spirit, or (with one or two exceptions) mentioning anything that doesn't look completely indistinguishable from cold reading.

Beyond that, the infrequency of the (very few) actual hits, makes even those easy to attribute as "lucky guesses". ("Jeannie" for "Gina", the name of the person the sitter wanted to contact, was the only exception. I thought that was a good hit in reading #2).

Even taken altogether, there are very few hits in these readings....All in all not much, but the second one gets my highest rating, a "4" on a scale of 1-5, )"5" being the reading most indistinguishable from cold reading, while a "1" would be most different from cold reading, most like what us "believers" would peg as "real mediumship").

So...the first one gets a "5". The second a "4". The third (with the overly talkative sitter), another "5"

The fourth reading also is nothing special. The sitter makes a lot of very weak guesses fit, can't even do that with many of them. "Bill and Pat" are the best "hits" here, and sitter makes them work as the grandmother and brother of the woman's deceased great uncle. Pretty common names, though, and nothing special to ID them. Good chance that Pat and Bill would be somebody....But, its slightly better than the first, third, or fifth readings. Somewhere between a "4" and "5", I guess.

Reading 5 is just annoying, unless there's better information in it later on. Another "5"

[renata]

Ersby, can you ask moderators edit a poll in? You can have a poll with multiple voting options enabled, so people can pick all they think are "genuine" mediums. It would be interesting to compare the results of the poll and what people post and what the reality is.

Very interesting thread. :)

[Iamme]

OMG Ersby...what did you go and do? Aeeeeeeeeeeee. I am going to have to tackle this one right after work. Maybe tomorrow. I'm getting ready to go home soon. Sorry. Till tomorrow. See you at JE. Bye.

[Clancie]

P.S. Ersby,

Don't tell us who they are, okay? Rereading it, I have some ideas from the style and it would be fun to try identifying them, after the demo is done.
:)

[neofight]

Great idea for a thread, Ersby!

I want to preface my remarks by stating that I think one would need a bigger sample of each medium or cold-readers work in order to have a better chance at correctly identifying which is which.

In other words, there might be a reading here that was done by someone I might believe is a real medium, but perhaps it is his/her all-time worst reading. Conversely, a reading done by an admitted cold-reader, might be a sample of their very best work. But having said that, I'll play along, and make my guesses. :)

After reading through the five examples, I kind of agree with Drooper. Numbers 1, 4 and 5 are not impressive in that they do not give much in the way of information that I would expect from a reading done by a true psychic medium. If they are supposed to be real mediums, I would have to say that these particular readings are not impressive at all.

#2 seems more authentic to me, and although I'm inclined to think that #3 could be a sample of a medium's reading, it is really much too brief for me to tell. If I had to guess, just to be eligible for the game though, I would guess it's real......neo

[ImpyTimpy]

Number 5 is deffinitely working as a "real psychic". It's very easy to recognise based on the way they conducted the reading. At the same time, number 5 is of very average quality. Nice description given but not much more information. The one I thought was nice was number 1 and number 2. Number 1 for the sheer amount of random information thrown out (either it's a real psychic or someone trying their luck) and number two for the way they got the information.

[Clancie]

Posted by neo

In other words, there might be a reading here that was done by someone I might believe is a real medium, but perhaps it is his/her all-time worst reading. Conversely, a reading done by an admitted cold-reader, might be a sample of their very best work. But having said that, I'll play along, and make my guesses.
Yes, that's a good point.
After reading through the five examples, I kind of agree with Drooper. Numbers 1, 4 and 5 are not impressive in that they do not give much in the way of information that I would expect from a reading done by a true psychic medium.
So far, it seems that four of us agree on Reading #2 being one of the best readings of the (not very good) five readings.

[voidx]

I'll agree with the consensus that 2 & 3 are probably admitted "real" psychics. With that said however all these readings are easily within the realms of cold-reading. The one thing I do seem to notice with "real" psychics, is that due to just plain practice and experience, their much better at controlling the encounter. They kept the momentum of the conversation on their side, not letting the sitter delve off on a tangent as much.

An example from medium #3 of a clever tactic:

MEDIUM3: Do you understand that? I also see pictures all over, he's telling me you have pictures of him everywhere.

SITTER3: Yes.

MEDIUM3: Like there's one particular place where they're all together. Do you understand, like a shrine to him. He's very sports oriented, by the way. He has a lot of vigour and he wants to know he's OK. He's watching a little girl.

SITTER3: Yeah.

MEDIUM3: Do you understand, do you have a little girl?

SITTER3: My niece.

See the bolded part, he's going off on the sitter having pictures of their father all over, then he takes a narrowing risk and suggests its in some form of shrine to his father, but he controls the risk by in the same run-on sentence mentioning "sports oriented", and "watching a little girl" all prefaced with the question of "Do you understand?". So the prefaced question prompts a yes or no answer, but offers 3 possibilities for a "hit". The sitter says yah, but we don't know to which item. Classic.

[RonSceptic]

Excellent Thread! Here's my two cents.......

Medium 1 seems pretty poor. I'd say an inexperienced or unskilled self confessed cold reader.

The best single 'hit' in all the readings was the 'Genie' name for 'Gina' in reading number 2, but I felt that other than that hit it was a pretty poor reading. So I'd say number two is a self confessed cold reader that got a lucky hit one on of the countless guesses.

I think number four is most likely a self confessed cold reader. I just can't imagine a practicing 'psychic' medium using the phrase 'that's a big validation'. Too much of a giveaway that you are clutching at straws.

So the smoothest readers were number 3 (though not too accurate)and 5. If any of these people are making a living at it, I would guess it would be those two.

That said, I don't see anything in any of the readings that can not be explained by cold reading.

The problem for the self confessed cold readers, is partly a moral one. In order to give a convincing reading it's necessary to con the sitter that you are in contact with a dead friend or relative. To practise this kind of deception, even for a short period of time, is something that most people would find pretty reprehensible.

As with any other performance, cold reading will improve with practice. That is why I would expect the 'psychic' mediums who wallow in such deception every day to out perform an 'honest' cold reader every time.

[Clancie]

Posted by RonSceptic

I just can't imagine a practicing 'psychic' medium using the phrase 'that's a big validation'. Too much of a giveaway that you are clutching at straws.
Hi RonSceptic

I agree with you that it's a pretty calculated move, but just to interject a trivial "point of interest"....the professional medium Robert Brown sometimes uses phrases like that and so does JE's friend John Holland

I even had a thought when I read it that JE might, on occasion, have used a phrase like that himself, i.e. "That's the validation for you in all this"--something like that, but I may be wrong. (Neo???? :confused: )

[renata]

Well, there are several issues here, I think. There is a matter of hits readers got, sitter satisfaction, any spirit communicator they brought through, and the style. One reading in particular has a style that I thought I immediately identified as a particular medium. I am sending Ersby a PM right now telling him who I thought that person was, so that I do not influence other opinions here, and also so I do not come after the reveal with- I thought so all along! :) If I am wrong, I am wrong. That reading, I felt was mediocre, but stylisticly more polished than others. Of course, you could have had a cold reader emulate him to mess us up :) Of the readings in general, I felt readings 2, 4 and 5 were by admitted psychics. However, that was due to style, not hits. My analysis of hits is below. The others appear to be less polished, but it is difficult to peg them one way or the other.

RonSkeptic, I have seen mediums say that things are a validation, it happens quite a bit. Don't let that comment discard that reading :)


I decided to score the readings just like I scored the JE readings.


Reading 1
Guesses
-Male to the side- not validated
-Michael-weak hit, caller knew some in the past, common name
-Learning to cook-weak hit- originally medium claims sitter needs to learn how to cook and sitter says he does know how to cook. However, reader stretches this into cooking being a new endeavor, and this is accepted as a hit.
-living in a flat with bad heating- not validated- reader tries to get a hit by using information from the sitter, that he knew a Michael from the past
-stuffed toy-miss
-statue of picture of toy in kitchen- weak hit. Originally a miss, but a sitter stretches this into a hit, with a picture or a statue, and it is a picture of a cow hanging on a wall, provided by a grandmother. Caller supplies the details, stretches the hit.
-not interefered while cooking- weak hit, common occurrence
-Something broken in kitchen-miss. Reader says sitter should replace something, sitter says he just replaced the microwave. Notice that reader seems to claim this is as a hit.
-October, 10th of the month- weak hit. Very common tactic, girfriend birthday
-training course- weak hit- receptionist
-grandmother passed- weak hit, rather obvious. He knew about the grandmother, info supplied by the sitter
-MR- weak hit, further validation on Michael
-boy, brown hair, round face-miss, all grandkids were older, but sitter tries to make it fit to the other grandmother. Notice that reader attempts to make teenagers make sound like small boys, stretching own guess.
-Pasta, favorite dish- weak hit- a leading question
-did grandmother used to sing- miss, and feel bad for the reader on this one. What grandmother does not sing?:) Reader tries to salvage it by saying she sang in her youth. Go check that!
-hoarder- 50/50 weak hit. Someone is either a hoarder or not, and if he is not, chances are he knows someone who is.
-Clearing out- weak hit, following up on his comment that his girlfriend keeps him in line. Logical follow up.




Spirit communicators- We had the grandmother who owned the cow picture and the male to the side who knew Michael R. The reader seemed to supply information, and agree with quite a bit of the reading, and seemed satisfed.

Style seems choppy, but there were no glaring misses. On the contrary, the reader got several threads and went with it- hoarder, cooking, animal, birthday. Most of the hits were rather weak, but although the reading was mediocre, there were many hits. Reader attempted to convert most misses into hits- toy a painting, kids looks like teenagers, grandmother sang in her youth, etc.
17 guesses
2 not validated or 12%
11 weak hits 65%
4 miss or 24%

Reading 2
Note the reading starts with a question as to who sitter wants to connect with
Gusses
-cousin is male- miss
-male figure coming through- weak hit, grandfather (validated later)
-cousin on Mom's side of the family- weak hit 50/50- either mom's side or dad's side of the family. Notice this reader just took credit for the information, even though the reader merely asked the question
-cousin's father passed- miss, her grandfather is passed. Reader tries to stretch it by saying father and grandfather are the same thing.
-breast cancer- miss. Breast cancer is a very common cause of death among women, especially young women
-unexpected passing- weak hit. It is rather obvious, because the woman who died is clearly young. Her father is still alive, so her death is untimely and thus unexpected
-cousin's mother still living- weak hit, obvious extrapolation- her father is also living. Another 50/50 hit. Notice reader asks if mother is living before reader says the dead cousin says hello to the mother.
-Genie name- hit- cousin's name is Gina. However, one would assume Jennie, Jennifer, Gene, Gino, John would all have been made fit at some point.
-Joseph or John- not scoring. This is a common trick of cold reader, to ask if a sitter understands, if it is OK. Then acknowledgement is not necessarily a hit, merely an understanding.
-dog-not scoring, caller "understands" Unclear what that refers to
-a birthday, or a passing, or an anniversary next month- not validated. Reader widens the net very much when sitter does not respond
-cousin gone for longer than 2 years-weak hit- 50/50 either she is, or she is not. If she is gone less than 2 years medium just says something that it feels she is gone a long time or somethin
-sitter and cousin close- weak hit- rather obvious from the fact sitter wants to connect with her cousin
-cousin has a brother- weak hit, 50/50 siblings are common.

Stylisticly this reader always reinforces what the sitter just told them by saying- because that is what I am seeing, even though it is the sitter that supplied the information.

Spirit communicators- cousin, grandfather. Both rather weak validationwise. Unclear if sitter was satisfied. There appeared to be only one hit, the rest appeared to be generalities and misses. However, the style appeared to be more polished and familiar.

Guesses 14
misses 3 or 21%
weak hit 7 or 50%
hit 1 or 7%
not scored 2 or 14%
not validated 1 or 7%



Reading 3.
Guesses
-John-miss, even though a common name
-medal of father's- weak hit, rather obvious, since father was killed in Vietnam
-medal is kept someplace special- weak hit, again obvious
-pictures everywhere-weak hit, obvious
-pictures in a shrine- not validated, but also an obvious guess
-father athletic- not validated, an obvious guess
-father watching a little girl- weak hit, a niece. Notice how the sitter says "yeah" and reader interprets that as agreement and asks if sitter has the daughter. He is incorrect, it is a niece, but he smoothes back into a hit.



The first thing that struck me about this reading is that the sitter gave the reader all the reader needed to know in the first sentence. Everything that is read is from that sentence, there is no cold reading really. Notice also this reader also reinforces what the sitter just told them by saying- because that is what I am seeing just like the second reader. There is no spirit communication, in itself, and after first sentence, little feedback.

Guesses 7
1 miss or 14%
4 weak hits or 57%
2 not validated or 28%

Reading 4
Guesses
-Male who passed, over 60, uncle or grandfather, who knew a Billy Bobby B name- weak hit, very vague, medium lets it go. However, later we find out Bill was the man's brother.
-Bilungual family or is someone studying a language- weak hit, sitter studying a language. This hit could apply to anyone with a foreign sounding last name, an immigrant family. Medium lets it go
-did the dead man die at dusk or dawn- not validated. Note the sitter now tells the name and relationship of the dead person- Great Uncle Rod
-April, 4th of the month- weak hit, birthdays in April
-is sitter the only daughter- miss, sitter has a sister. Notice this was a 50/50 guess that did not pay off. Note the medium tries to stretch the hit by wondering if the sitter is isolated from family, which is a rather common event for everyone at one time or another.
-Place in the mountains, holidays- weak hit, uncle lived on a mountain
-lost something on a mountain-miss. This is a very common thing- who has not left something behind on vacation. Does not pay off. Reader tries to stretch it by having the sitter wonder if she left a part of her heart behind, sitter does not buy into it
-dog passing in the family- miss, not recently. Reader tries to stretch the hit by saying to belong to Uncle Rod, but it appears Uncle Rod did not have a dog. Then medium tries again, with the dog that the sitter had when she visited Uncle Rod (even though she did not take the dog with her, and the reader just said the dog is connected to the Uncle) and yes, that dog is indeed dead.
-Sam- weak hit, very common name. However it appears Uncle Rod is bringing through a ghost?
-apartment has a kitchen and living room, picture and photo near tv in the corner of a room, and flowers- weak hit. Of course he just described every apartment in the universe, including mine.
-Sam got the blame for something, -miss. This is a very strange direction of the reading, because now we are transmitting ghosts from the other side.
-Pat-weak hit, Rod's sister, common name

Spirit communication- we had Uncle Rod and Sam. Sitter seemed cooperative, and got several hits. The reading appeared to be pretty smooth. The style was good but there were several threads that seemed to go nowhere.

Guesses 12
7 weak hits or 58%
4 misses or 33%
1 not validated or 8.3%


Reading 5

Guesses
-mother or grandmother,short salt & pepper hair, stout, 5'6"-5'7"- weak hit sitter reckognizes grandmother, but does not explain how close the description was
-sitter was close to grandmother- weak hit, obvious
-shortness of breath, difficulty breathing- very common guess, weak hit
-pneumonia, chest problem, lots of medical problems- very common guess, weak hit
-cause of death pulmonary condition- not scoring, reader merely acknowledges it.
-grandmother feisty- weak hit, very obvious rather common trait.
-funny way with words- weak hit, different language

Polished reading, rather a lot of platitutudes about feisty spirit, all is well, sending her love. Spirit communication is the grandnmother. Sitter appears cooperative.

Guesses 7
6 weak hits or 86%
1 not scored or 14%


Edited to add percentages. Interestingly, from percentage standpoint purely, if you just add the hit the weak hit, this is how the readings stack up, best to worst, according to my count
5
1
4
2 and 3 (tied)
This is of course misleading. First of all, the hit should be scored higher than a weak hit. Reading 5 took much less chances, and has a higher artificial hit rate. If you count a hit as 2 weak hits, then the standings by percentage points go like this
5
1
2
4
3
If you do the standings by amount of hits, counting the hit in 2 as 2 weak hits, this is how they stack up
1 (11 WH)
2(7 WH &1hit)
4 (7WH)
5 (6WH)
3 (4WH)


I find it interesting to see which readings people assume are cold readings and which are by mediums. According to my count, people are not picking the more succesful readings, the ones with most hits. I wish you guys would explain the logic behind that a little more :)

[Loki]

I'd go for :

#1 and #4 as cold reading by a cold reader;
#2 and #3 as cold reading by a professional medium ( :) )
#5 as probably by a professional medium (can't quite decide!)

#2 strikes me as the best of a average bunch - which worries me a little, because I suspect it might be Sylvia in action!!!

[The Mighty Thor]

Is 'Jeannie' really a strong hit.

There is:

Genie (As in 'I Dream of . . .)
Genie in a bottle -- popular song as with Jean Genie.
Gene - male
Jean
Jeannie
Gina
Jeanette (my next-door neighbour)

There is also

Jeans (garment)

genes (Oh, how did [the psychic] know I work in gene research)

There may be more, but who here could not relate to a fairly personal 'jean' connection, given all the above?

malc

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by renata
Well, there are several issues here, I think. There is a matter of hits readers got, sitter satisfaction, any spirit communicator they brought through, and the style.

Nice rundown.

Btw, I actually attended a party for Halloween where they had a reading done for entertainment, and I was allowed to use my dictaphone. I haven't bothered to type it out yet, but was wondering if anyone would like to see it? Either here or in a new thread?

N/A

[renata]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


Nice rundown.

Btw, I actually attended a party for Halloween where they had a reading done for entertainment, and I was allowed to use my dictaphone. I haven't bothered to type it out yet, but was wondering if anyone would like to see it? Either here or in a new thread?

N/A
Thanks, and I would like to see the reading if it is not too much work. Do you know if the reader was professing to be real? If you do, don't tell us :) Do you also know if the sitter believed in the reader, and was being honest? It might be a good addition to this thread, but ask Ersby :)


Originally posted bymalcolmdl

Is 'Jeannie' really a strong hit.

There is:

Genie (As in 'I Dream of . . .)
Genie in a bottle -- popular song as with Jean Genie.
Gene - male
Jean
Jeannie
Gina
Jeanette (my next-door neighbour)

There is also

Jeans (garment)

genes (Oh, how did [the psychic] know I work in gene research)

There may be more, but who here could not relate to a fairly personal 'jean' connection, given all the above?


I have yet to see mediums claim jeans, but I have seen them claim dog names, and initials. So Genie, if unclaimed, could have been any J or G name, male or female, human or pet. However, it so happens, it was claimed, and with little searching. Hence a hit. Now like a cynic you might wonder if there wasn't a little hot reading there, but the quality of the reading was so poor, that I doubt it :).

[The Mighty Thor]

2 is PROFESSED PSYCHIC
5 is PROFESSED PSYCHIC
1,3,4 COLD READING

malc

[renata]

To anyone who might identify the psychic by name-

Please don't name them. I think the game is not guess the psychic, but tell the difference between mediumship and cold reading. If you have suspicions, PM them to Ersby, which is what I did. We do not want to influence what others may think, because that would make that reading useless for the purposes of comparison. Everyone will now assume it is a medium, not because of their results, but because they reckognize the person who did the reading. Where is the fun in that?:)


Malcolm- no problem ;)

[Aussie Thinker]

I would appreciate here if someone could explain the difference between cold reading and hot reading ?

To me the entire concept is all ********.. so I can’t differentiate.

The above is an example of how pathetic these “readings” are. I am sure I could do as good a job as these pathetic attempts at trying to fool people !

I just don’t get .. are we trying to decide here who is a better charlatan or if (chuckle) someone really does commune with the dead ?

[The Mighty Thor]

Renata

I've deleted my post and edited the second.

Now you will have to delete your reference to my now deleted post.

Sorry about that -- mea culpa

malc

[renata]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
I would appreciate here if someone could explain the difference between cold reading and hot reading ?

To me the entire concept is all ********.. so I can’t differentiate.

The above is an example of how pathetic these “readings” are. I am sure I could do as good a job as these pathetic attempts at trying to fool people !

I just don’t get .. are we trying to decide here who is a better charlatan or if (chuckle) someone really does commune with the dead ?

Cold reading is explained here
http://www.randi.org/library/coldreading/
http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html
Hot reading is knowing something in advance, as I understand it. In the Gina case, if the medium had a questionnaire asking who the sitter wanted to connect with, and the sitter said Gina, for example. There are many other variations of it.


Here assume some people are prorfessional mediums, trying to bilk clients out of money. We also assume others are self professed cold readers, magicians and such who try to emulate these mediums and see if people can tell the differences between the people who do it professionally and people who emulate them. As far as I am concerned, they are all cold readers :)

[Aussie Thinker]

Renata,

Thanks.. yep I agree they are all “cold readers”

The above examples are all very poor though I understand the idea id for us to see if the “real” psychics are any better than the fakes.

To me each of the above was VERY poor and I think ones of the posters here summed up their “hits” nicely.. no more than random really.

[Clancie]

Posted by Aussie Thinker

To me each of the above was VERY poor and I think ones of the posters here summed up their “hits” nicely.. no more than random really.
Well, I don't think they're good either, Aussie Thinker, partly for the reason you mention (the appearance of getting weak results through guessing), but even more from all the information that these sitters gave to the "mediums" themselves, information which often (rightly or wrongly) appears to then be used by the mediums, with that information fed back, stretched out, etc to the sitters. Sitters who are more taciturn (giving simple "yes" and "no" answers) could give a better idea of what information, if any, mediums (or cold readers) could bring out.....
Posted by Malcolmd

Is 'Jeannie' really a strong hit?
Yes, I thought it was a good one, Malcolm, since "Gina" was the name of the particular cousin that the sitter wanted to communicate with and whom the medium said s/he was getting feedback from and about.

Rightly or wrongly, hearing the name of the specific person you wanted usually makes it feel like a more personal connection has been made.

[Aussie Thinker]

Clancie,

Is Genie that good a hit for Gina ? I could mistake Gene or Jenna for Gina but Genie has an emphasis on the wrong vowel altogether.. the “ee” and the “ah” are unmistakably different !

Are we led to believe that the dead are not terribly clear ?? WHY would that be ?

Just part of the scam I guess

[renata]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Clancie,

Is Genie that good a hit for Gina ? I could mistake Gene or Jenna for Gina but Genie has an emphasis on the wrong vowel altogether.. the “ee” and the “ah” are unmistakably different !

Are we led to believe that the dead are not terribly clear ?? WHY would that be ?

Just part of the scam I guess

Mediums guess names all the time, just like they guess a number, usually 1-12 all the time. With the number, they get a hit if something happens on that day, or in that month- anything- birthday, anniversary, passing- for anyone. One time I think it was a birthday of a dog :). With names, sometimes they guess an Lname, Rname, Jname and someone bites, or sometimes they try with a unique name, and widen from there. If nobody bites on a unique name (and how unique is Genie/Jenny/Jennifer) they will widen it to an initial, or drop it entirely. And the connection does not have to be with a dead person, it can be a pet, a distant relative, a friend or a neighbor. If someone gets a unique name, it will be seen as a great hit, if not, it is forgotten quickly. The great thing about mediums is that hits are remembered, misses are forgotten. Some examples of the name game, all from JE transcripts (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24032)

All from different readings

EDWARD: Where is -- sorry -- where does the K-name like Karen come up?
CALLER: I don't know. EDWARD: Yes, you do. There is a C or a K connection directly to you or to this family, from what they are telling me

....
EDWARD: Somebody has a nickname after a spice, like pepper? Who's got a spice name?
CALLER: Spice name? Don't know.
EDWARD: Salty or pepper, cinnamon.
CALLER: Oh, my dog.
EDWARD: OK. What's the name?
CALLER: Her name is Ginger.
EDWARD: Has that dog passed?
CALLER: No.
.....
But they're telling me to bring up the J or G name connected to your family. Where...
CALLER: J or G?
EDWARD: Like, somebody's name's, like, John or Jim, it's, like, a short J name.
CALLER: No, I don't -- I can't think of anything.
.....
Is Mary connected directly to your mom?
CALLER: Mary? Yes, that was her roommate in the nursing home.
.....

And they're telling me to bring up either Robert, or Ronnie, or the R name that's connected to that family or your family. There's an R connection here.
.....
There's got to be either a Nathaniel or a Nate or a Nat or an N name.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Other side of the family.
EDWARD: Is -- who is that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be my great-uncle.
......

This one is curious because the caller is from Brazil. Puts this comment in perspective-r
Who has the unique J name that I'm not going to be able to pronounce?
CALLER: J? Well my name -- my mother's name is Jane.
EDWARD: Jane?
CALLER: Jane? Jane, yes.

.....
The other thing I want to talk about is the unique B name. Where is the B coming for you?
CALLER: A B?
EDWARD: Yes.
CALLER: I can't think of anything right now.
EDWARD: Well, directly connected to your mom's side of the family, where's the B name? Like Betty, like Beth or Bobby or the B connection again? Or Buddy? Just a short B name like Bud, Bill.
CALLER: No, nothing I'm -- no.

....
Is there a Katherine or Kathleen connected to you?
CALLER: My brother's name was Keith.
EDWARD: I'll take that. Sounds the same to me.
....
Who's Anthony or Antoinette? Or -- who's the AN name?
CALLER: Antoinette is a neighbor of his.
EDWARD: OK.
CALLER: A neighbor of my sister's, rather.



There are many more, but I think you get the idea. :)

[Aussie Thinker]

I think I have noticed another tactic here. (duh you all say)

They make the dupe feel guilty like they are an idiot if you can’t come up with the connection.. it seems to me people desperately scramble for a connection.. however vague and the “reader” passes accepts this as a HIT !

[renata]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
I think I have noticed another tactic here. (duh you all say)

They make the dupe feel guilty like they are an idiot if you can’t come up with the connection.. it seems to me people desperately scramble for a connection.. however vague and the “reader” passes accepts this as a HIT !

That is a good observation. :) They frequently tell the sitter to write things down, go home and ask the family about the hits, and badger the sitter to get a connection. The hits are often very general. The ones that are not general either can pay off spectacularly, or if they are misses are forgotten entirely. Some readings were analyzed for "me tooness" here, and even the ones that looked good for the original sitter turned out to apply to many people, once you allow to search far enough, and accept friends, neighbors and pets as hits. If you read many readings at once, you will notice these patterns over and over, and several good readings become very unimpressive in the crowd of bad ones. Also, you will note that most of the information is formed as a question, and is blindly stumbled towards, usually through several abandoned alleys, even with very good readings. However, the sitters comes from a good reading thinking the reader provided them with amazing accurate information, forgetting the process. Someone called it the case of throwing darts on a board and believers drawing bullseyes around where they hit :)

Here are trends that I personally noticed from the thread I linked to earlier. Almost every reading had
- an initial thrown out at them, or a very common name
- a number, usually 1-12
- badgering, asking them to write things down, repeating some guesses
- some safe guesses- dead grandparents, general cancer
-50/50 guesses
-callers tended to tell JE who they wanted to connect with, but rarely got who they wanted
-lots of platitudes - the dead ones are OK, etc.
-lots of does this make sense or do you understand questions- very difficult to score those, as not sure if caller says yes to understanding or to a connection
-A lot of questions
-a lot of information provided by callers smoothly transformed into information provided by JE later on in the reading.

Now...we hijacked Ersby's thread enough. Sorry.... :o

[Clancie]

Excerpt from Reading #2 above (The sitter has already said she wants to contact her female cousin...)

MEDIUM2: And the woman you're trying to connect with...OK. Is this an unexpected passing, please?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: Because I feel as the grandfather comes in here, bringing her through, I feel like I don't have a lot of time to say good-bye to my family, I don't have a lot of time. Her mother is still living, please?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: There's a big please get a hello there, OK? I've got to connect her with her mother. There's a big hello going there, too.

SITTER2: OK.

MEDIUM2: All right... OK Sara, where does the Genie name come in?

SITTER2: Her name is Gina.
I agree that none of these readings are very good. However, I still think "Jeannie" mentioned when the particular person the sitter wanted was "Gina" was a far better hit than just saying "a J name" or throwing out a number from 1-12....

[The Mighty Thor]

Clancie
MEDIUM2: All right... OK Sara, where does the Genie name come in?

What about possible replies:

'Oh, Genie. We used to love that song Jean Genie.'

'We played 'I dream of Jeannie' when we were kids.'

I'm/she's a fan of Gene Kelly - Jean Harlow - Gina Lollobrigida - Gene Hackman - Billie Jean King - Jean Claude Van Damm - Marilyn Munro - etc.

'We always used to say as cousins "same genes!"'

'My mom's - brother's - aunt's - uncle's - cousin's - boyfriend's - classmate's - etc - name was Jean/Jeanie/Gene.' Repeat for 'her' (the spirit) doubles the chance of a hit.

Do you relate to a 'Genie' name in any way? Who here can say they don't?

He caste a very wide net, and reeled in a whopper.

The cold readers here should note 'Genie'. It is a real doozy for a hit.

Note the earlier mention of 'especially Irish Catholic' as though the reader knows the sitter is just that. (Wearing a demure crucifix, perhaps) He makes a joke about 'John' being 'wide', but claims a big validation on Genie/Jeannie which is about equivalent to John, with all the added connotations above.

It's very clever, this.

malc

[The Mighty Thor]

Here's how it could nearly go wrong:

MEDIUM2: All right... OK Sara, where does the Genie name come in?

SITTER2: (Irish Catholic) Yeah, Grandpa used to sing that song 'I Dream of Jeannie with the light brown hair' to us all the time.

MEDIUM2: Yes -- she's acknowledging Grandpa is with her

SITTER2: No, I didn't say he was dead. He just stopped singing

MEDIUM2: Oh, er, grandad on maternal side, then?

SITTER2: No. He's still alive, too, and he doesn't sing.

MEDIUM2: So we've got a 'father figure', boyfriend or tutor maybe, with a genie connection'

SITTER2: Well, if you say so . . .

MEDIUM2: Yes that was a big validation for your cousin.

malc

[The Mighty Thor]

MEDIUM2: OK, it's totally her, OK? Please tell her mother... That must be the mothers father that's passed away, the grandfather, do you understand that?

SITTER2: Yes.

MEDIUM2: He's coming through here. I do not like to give the name Mary or John because we all have one in our family, especially Irish catholic... But the name Joseph or John is also being called out, OK?

SITTER2: I ..Yes.

MEDIUM2: It's like J - O, J - O, J - O. I understand that. This girl, there's no pain she's telling me also, OK? This is a very fast passing... And I'm supposed to say I have the dog.

SITTER2: Oh! OK.

MEDIUM2: Do you understand that?

SITTER2: Yes, uh-huh.

I probably don't need to point this out, but it looks to me as if the sitter is replying to a wide 'Joseph/John' connection, not the grandfather.

Then her 'OK' is to a three-part assertion.

Then a 'Yes' to a general 'Do you understand' which is meant to confirm either or all of . . . John/Joseph/cousin is OK/fast passing/J.O./ some pesky dog.

Now the grandfather is not mentioned again. (because the medium now knows the grandfather is probably not John/Joseph)

The psychology of coming up with generalities that 'look' specific must be amazing. I can't think on the spot that quick. Nor can I talk as fast as JE.:) These folk's synapses must spark at a hell of a rate. They could make a fortune as adverserial lawyers.

malc

[renata]

Originally posted by malcolmdl


What about possible replies:

'Oh, Genie. We used to love that song Jean Genie.'

'We played 'I dream of Jeannie' when we were kids.'

I'm/she's a fan of Gene Kelly - Jean Harlow - Gina Lollobrigida - Gene Hackman - Billie Jean King - Jean Claude Van Damm - Marilyn Munro - etc.

'We always used to say as cousins "same genes!"'

'My mom's - brother's - aunt's - uncle's - cousin's - boyfriend's - classmate's - etc - name was Jean/Jeanie/Jean.' Repeat for 'her' (the spirit) doubles the chance of a hit.

Do you relate to a 'Genie' name in any way? Who here can say they don't?

He caste a very wide net, and reeled in a whopper.

The cold readers here should note 'Genie'. It is a real doozy for a hit.

Note the earlier mention of 'especially Irish Catholic' as though the reader knows the sitter is just that. (Wearing a demure crucifix, perhaps) He makes a joke about 'John' being 'wide', then claims a big hit on Genie/Jeannie which is about equivalent to John, with all the added connotations above.

It's very clever, this.

malc

Well, you will notice that I scored this guess as a hit (the only one I scored as a hit) even though I felt the reading as a whole was mediocre. Cold readers play numbers. Sometimes they get lucky, sometimes very lucky. This really is not a thread about that. We had a thread (linked to above) studying many readings by JE, where we see some very strong hits, if we look at them in a vacuum. However once we reviewed them in context of many readings, we saw that there were some very mediocre readings, and some abysmal readings, that were obviously so poor that they were at best psychic readings and not at all mediumship (yes, there is a difference:)). In context, the strongest readings looked like merely statistical anomalies. My results from that count are below. As I was the only one that did the count, and I am a pretty big skeptic, so it is possible it is skewed, of course. :)
5 LKL appearances, with about 10 or so readings per appearance
Total guesses 476
48 hits, 10.1%
118 weak hits 24.8%
171 misses 35.9%
102 not validated 21.4%
35 not scored 7.4%
2 strong hits .4%
There was one other recent appearance, and I was almost done analysing it when my computer crashed. However, since there was no feedback since the last two transcripts were analyzed, and it was more of the same, I did not redo the work. I may do it again, now that I think of it.



Of course, if we want to examine reading 2 we have to wonder- why did the spirit pass the name Gina, but not the illness correctly? Why did the reader have to ask who the sitter want to connect with? Why did the reader think the cousin was male at first? Why does the reader have to keep asking whether the parents and the brother are alive? Shouldn't the spirit, and thus the reader know? Why so many questions, and confirmations only after the sitter provides the info? Why not "My name is Gina I died in a car accident on October 12, say hi to my living parents and my half brother, my birthday is March 23, my favorite color is purple, tell Sara about the time I wore her pink dress to the prom and got a stain on it I am really sorry about it." Why 20 questions and fuzzy memory? So focusing on one hit- Gina really lets us play the reader's game- focus on the hit, ignore the misses, ignore the way the other hits were derived, ignore the 20 questions game these people play. This is precisely why these people are succesful. Really, I personally think the best approach is not to think- how did reader X get hit Y, but what is the overall result of this reading.

But once again we will be derailing the thread talking about the process, and as we know discussing process is a tricky thing :) Nobody ever knows exactly how mediums do their thing! I know even mediums do everything differently, some see, some hear. I believe some even make fun of each other for doing things a certain way :)

As to how common Genie/Jenny type name is
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.female.first

Jennifer is the 6th most common female name in the US
Virginia is 35
Jean is 58
Joan is 62
Janise is 66
Jane is 77
Joanne is 147
Regina is 168
Gina is 213
Jenny is 282

Notice he included Joseph or John
John 2nd most most common male name in the US
Joseph is 9th

If you assume other J-G names would have been accepted, male and female had Gina not been a hit, you open a world of other possibilities
George 16
Jason 24
Jose 28
Joe 51
And so on
And we have not started on pet names yet http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/tiere/animal-smiley-036.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/tiere/animal-smiley-027.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0903/tiere/animal-smiley-043.gif

[NoZed Avenger]

gree that the 2nd reading is probably the best, but I also agree that none look "zowie" impressive. They all resemble the JE threads from LKL in hits and misses.


Off topic (slightly).

Here is the rough transcript from the Halloween party I mentioned, along with a brief explanation. I am no typist or transcriptist, so take it with a shaker of salt - but I have tried to get it as close as possible.


I will refer to the persons as follows:

“medium” or “M” = person performing reading
“sitter” or “S”= person claiming reading
“host/hostess” or “H” = people hosting event
“unidentified”or “U” = partygoer; other than the host.

Where names are used, I will use something close/similar (with the exception of the “rose” noted below). I will try to note the changes. I am cutting out most of the “uhs” and “ers” for ease of reading – I can add them if desired.

This was casually introduced as something for the party.

I did talk to the host, and he confirms the following:

(1) Host and Hostess know medium from school several years back; intermittent contact; medium has no known contact with sitter.
(2) Sitter knows Host and Hostess for several years, but not from same school – only after moving to city. Sitter stated that she did not know Medium.
(3) Medium stated he did not know Sitter prior to event. Casual investigation of backgrounds through other party-goers (by me) seems to bear this out: medium not connected to anyone at the party other than the host/hostess.

At the time of the reading, only half a dozen guests or so were present. This was early in the evening and I believe that everyone stayed in the main room.

[introductory remarks omitted; Medium does say he is going to keep things “light” and avoid bad subjects, so not to worry]

M: Okay. Let me start out by saying that I have no real control over the impressions I get. Sometimes I feel things strongly, but sometimes- sometimes not as well. I’m . . I’m getting though a strong impression of an older lady, and I’m seeing a strong picture of roses. The roses are very strong, and I’m getting a definite feel that there is a strong connection to someone here. Is that making sense to anyone?

S: [Raised hand] My grandmother was named Rose.

M: Okay. Okay. Now you’re- ? [question]

S: Jan [changed].

M: Okay. But I am getting a very strong impression that you are connected to this energy – more than just your grandmother.

[pause]

M: Were you named after her, in fact?

S: [laughing] Yes, I was.

M: Middle name?

S: Yes.

M: Okay, because I’m seeing the connection there. I’m also seeing two roses together, two of them . . .and I’m seeing like- I’m seeing a picture of the symbol for Gemini, like there are twins involved. Does that make sense to you?

[unidentified]: Her grandmother was a twin.

S: She had a twin sister.

M: Okay. That makes sense, because I am seeing these two roses together. I am also getting a “6” connection – either a connection to June or the sixth of the month?

S: No. . . No.

M: Are you sure? This would be an anniversary or special occasion, and I want. . . I want to say this is for June.

[pause]

M: This would be a connection to the grandmother, not to you directly. It seems more like something important to her than to you directly, but it is an anniversary or something like that, something every year.

S: I can’t think of anything.

M: Okay. I may be wrong, but I get a definite impression there, and so- And you may want to ask about that, okay?

S: Okay.

M: Now your grandmother, she is on your father’s side?

S: Right.

M: Okay, because I am sensing that the connection is through your father. And I’m seeing a little boy fishing. Is there someone who – is fishing important to anyone?

S: My father.

M: Okay, because I am seeing a little boy fishing, and getting a feeling like almost exasperation. It- It isn’t anger or anything like that. More like “oh, he’s fishing again” kind of thing. Like he was always doing it, or always wanting to do it. And I’m getting a picture of a dark green or dark fishing pole. Either dark, dark green or black with green on it, and I want to say it is connected to the boy. Does that make sense?

S: [laughs]

[pause; nothing audible]

M: Do you have a sister?

S: Yes. Linda. [changed]

M: Younger sister?

S: Yep.

M: Because I am getting a sense that she wants me to acknowledge you and a smaller girl, Linda. And I’m also getting some concern- Mild concern about you- Not about anything really serious, but its connected to your finances or your job. I’m seeing children connected to your work, but not directly. Not like you’re a teacher, but somehow connected to schools or schoolwork. Do you understand that?

[unintelligible sounds] [From memory, I do not know if sitter answered or how]

M: And its like- its like you want to be more creative and do something more creative, like your job is not allowing you that, and you are sometimes frustrated with it, but you are concerned about making it, or being a success. Does that make sense?

S: Some. [laughing]

M: I believe that this is related to your job, that she feels that you have been dissatisfied with some parts of your job, because- I feel there was a big change within the last year or so? There was some kind of change in how you have been looking at your job and the chance to do something else or make a change related to that?

S: Yeah.

M: And I think that your grandmother is picking up your concerns, and she wants you not to worry about success, you know?

S: Mmmm. [I think; non-commital grunt sounds]

M: And success in the future depends on how everyone defines success, you know?

S: Yeah.

M: Success means just having more money to some people, but others would be happy to have things published or- Or just know that they have created something new for themselves, even if no one else saw it. Does that make sense?

S: Yes.

M: Because I get the feeling that she understood success and the real meaning; and I am getting- getting a real feeling that she wants you to know that understanding too.

S: Okay.

M: And let me just say, to end this- I get a very strong impression that you are independent- a very independent thinker, but you sometimes let yourself be talked into listening to other people and go against your instincts, but then you usually regret not just going with your gut. Do you understand that?

S: Yes. [laughing]

M: Okay, and she is telling you to trust yourself more and your own decisions more. Okay.

S: Okay.

[end]

[renata]

Originally posted by malcolmdl

The psychology of coming up with generalities that 'look' specific must be amazing. I can't think on the spot that quick. Nor can I talk as fast as JE.:)



Well, these guys get a lot of practice :) Plus, remember the sitters really want to believe. If you slog through many of these readings in a row, similarities in technuques just jump out at you. If you analyze just one at a time, it is less obvious. In the JE LKL appearances, he always called Helen/Ellen for example. It was particularly funny, because it was always a miss- I am starting to think she haunts the studio and am feeling very warm towards her.

The do you understand is an old trick that many mediums use to stretch hits. There was a story I recall about a medium told by Randi I believe, but I cannot find the commentary. Any help will be appreciated. Apparently on a show a medium read someone during an intermission or beforehand and then again while the tape was rolling. The medium knew everything of course already. The sitter was confirming everything, because everything was correct, nodding her head, but to the TV audience it appeared the reading was done for the first time. The sitter was an unwitting accomplice in this. Can't find a reference for this story, so take it for what it is worth, with my poor memory :) I do recall Van Praagh did a show with ABC and read a group and was caught asking questions while he thought camera was off. He then proceeded the read the person knowing the answers to those questions. I saw that show, and when he was asked about it, he denied asking those questions. Once again, it was a few years back, and I can't find an article on it- take it for what it is worth, with my poor memory :D

One funny side effect of examining the transcripts is that you sometimes see the medium take a wrong cue and go in the wrong direction. You almost feel for them, darnit- for all intents and purposes they should be right, but they fail pretty badly.

Example (partial reading)
Caller from Brazil. It is not unreasonable to believe that a man named Dennis is not a native of Rio, and his father lived in a different country. But- wrong.
CALLER: Hello, my name is Dennis, and I lost my father three months ago.
EDWARD: OK, Dennis, hold on. Was he in a different country from you?
CALLER: No. He was in a distant city.


Portion of another reading
your dad's there too?
CALLER: Probably.
EDWARD: OK, because they're telling me that your dad is coming through.
CALLER: Great.
EDWARD: Was he not always around?
CALLER: Well, he was around most of the time, yes.
EDWARD: OK.
CALLER: He traveled a lot.
EDWARD: Well, your dad is making me feel like he wasn't exactly the family man.
CALLER: Oh he was -- no, he was a family man.
EDWARD: He's not showing me like he was there for dinner at 5:00, let's put it that way.
CALLER: Well, sometimes he was there for dinner at 6:00.

If someone asks a person if her father is dead, and she says "probably", it stands to reason she and her father are estranged, and she does not know whether he is alive or dead, but assumes he is dead, but does not particularly care for him. A genuine medium, would know if the father is alive or dead. A cold reader would run with the estranged father direction. Which is what JE does, and gets several nasty misses before he drops that line of questioning.

[renata]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
[B]

Where names are used, I will use something close/similar (with the exception of the “rose” noted below). I will try to note the changes. I am cutting out most of the “uhs” and “ers” for ease of reading – I can add them if desired.

This was casually introduced as something for the party.

I did talk to the host, and he confirms the following:

(1) Host and Hostess know medium from school several years back; intermittent contact; medium has no known contact with sitter.
(2) Sitter knows Host and Hostess for several years, but not from same school – only after moving to city. Sitter stated that she did not know Medium.
(3) Medium stated he did not know Sitter prior to event. Casual investigation of backgrounds through other party-goers (by me) seems to bear this out: medium not connected to anyone at the party other than the host/hostess.



Thanks for taking the time to transcribe and post this :) I will do my usual comment. My first impression is that it is hard to evaluate here- for one thing opportunity for mischief at such a party is quite large. While I do not doubt words of your hosts and friends, there is a lot of opportunity for comments to slip out and casual mingling.
Guesses
-older lady- weak hit. However, any old lady would do. Who does not know an older lady who passed away. Very safe guess
-picture or roses- weak hit. This is a classic hook, and medium lucks out, since the sitter supplies that the grandmother's name is Rose. Had the grandmother had a rose garden, painted roses, liked roses, it all would have fit in some way. Given that there were hald dozen people in the room, and everyone has 2 grandmothers, not to mention great aunts, and great grandmothers, and perhaps mothers who passed, the medium had a virtual certainty that someone would get a connection with an elderly woman with roses. My grandfather's sister's name was Rose, for example. Sitter gives a name, identifies grandmother, her name
-connection more than merely grandmother-hit-well, this is a tricky one. A lot of things could have happened here. Sitter could have said- I was her favorite granddaughter, or some such. There could have been many ways to connect. However, the medium correctly guesses the sitter was named after the grandmother. That is an interesting guess, and not one I would expect
-middle name- obvious followup, since we already know sitter's first name is not Rose. Not scoring
-two roses, gemini- very interesting. It is very common trait of cold readers when they get a hit to double it, thus "two roses" does not seem impressive at first. We have seen it with Altea and two rosebushes and some cases with JE. If they are right, it is impressive, if they are wrong, it is glossed over. This is a case where it appears a medium correctly guessed the grandmother had a twin which seems impressive. However, if a grandmother had a sister, would it have been as impressive? Had Jan had a twin or a sister, would it have been as impressive? Had the grandmother been born in whatever month astrologers think is Gemini, would that have been as impressive? And, finally, could the medium simply have said Jan and her grandmother are two roses, twin souls, connected? In other words, it is a hit, of course, but there are many outs for it.
-June- miss. I actually just checked and according to http://horoscopes.astrology.com Gemini is May 21-June 21 It is possible Medium was going to June with the Gemini reference. Medium tries to stretch it for the grandmother, and Jan would not be aware of all significant dates for her grandmother. A common tactic, to tell sitter to go back and check. Sitter will search for any date in June whatsoever that might fit.
-grandmother on father's side- weak hit, 50/50. Notice that like in other readings there is a question, sitter validates the guess, and then the information is recycled back to the sitter, "Yes, because they are showing me..." as if the medium came up with that information on his/her own. This tactic is repeated later in the reading
-fishing connected to the boy- weak hit, I guess Jan's father likes fishing. I am not sure how common or uncommon it is in NoZed's area to like fishing
-sister- weak hit
-younger sister- weak hit, 50/50.

The rest of the reading cannot be scored- it is one Forer statement after another. http://www.skepdic.com/forer.html

Summary
Guesses 10
6 weak hits or 60%
1 miss or 10%
2 hits or 20%
1 not scored or 10%

I have to say of the readings so far it is most impressive. Whether it is due to the fact that the most willing participant was plucked out of a bunch, or perhaps some information was leaked in advance, or it was arranged as a spooky prank by your hosts(sorry, NZ skeptics are skeptics) we do not know.

But this whole endeavor reminds me of a story by Asimov, about a paranormal event retelling. I will share it later, after the grand reveal by Ersby :D

[Ersby]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I’m kicking myself over the idea of putting a poll in. Should’ve thought of that. But the thread’s already a bit old, so I’ll leave it be. I’ll wait for a while longer before I tell all. Besides, there are a few posters I’m hoping for an opinion from.

Very interesting to see what’s going on. A quick count of votes so far shows that 2 is the best, then 3, then 5 and 4 about the same, and lastly 1 is by consensus the weakest. If there’s any of that silent majority I heard so much about that disagrees, you’d better speak up.

And, like Renata, I’d like some explanation behind your choices. Are the sceptics voting for those readings which are closest to what they’d expect a genuine psychic to say, or those readings which bring through the best/most information? I’m assuming the latter, since that’s what I asked for at the start, but it’d be nice to have it confirmed.

I’m a little taken aback by how many people say these are bad readings. I honestly don’t think you’ll find much better (which says a lot for mental mediumship). They’re unedited transcripts, and to a single sitter so no chances to play an audience. At least a couple of these transcripts were put on the internet as an example of how good psychic mediums can be!

(as for the PM messages, I think that Clancie can be quite pleased with herself. Renata: close but no cigar.) :)

[NoZed Avenger]

With regard to the readings listed, I do think they are comparable to the JE LKL readings, for example -- but I was not particularly impressed with those, either.

IMO, most of these readings are at least as good as the better readings in the LKL transcripts, and probably a bit better. But I am a bit jaded on cold reading at the moment.

[renata]

Originally posted by Ersby
Thanks for the input, everyone. I’m kicking myself over the idea of putting a poll in. Should’ve thought of that. But the thread’s already a bit old, so I’ll leave it be. I’ll wait for a while longer before I tell all. Besides, there are a few posters I’m hoping for an opinion from.

You can ask the moderator to edit a poll in. If you do, I think you should enable multiple options. Never too late!! :)


And, like Renata, I’d like some explanation behind your choices. Are the sceptics voting for those readings which are closest to what they’d expect a genuine psychic to say, or those readings which bring through the best/most information? I’m assuming the latter, since that’s what I asked for at the start, but it’d be nice to have it confirmed.


I voted for what I thought was the smoothest style and information, not the best information. Best information was I felt 124, I voted 245 :)


I’m a little taken aback by how many people say these are bad readings. I honestly don’t think you’ll find much better (which says a lot for mental mediumship). They’re unedited transcripts, and to a single sitter so no chances to play an audience. At least a couple of these transcripts were put on the internet as an example of how good psychic mediums can be!


Well...they are bad readings :) There are no major hits, no great ahas with the exception of a single name hit. 3 in particular is a very manipulative reading, where a reader got absolutely everything from the sitter's first sentence. If someone is using any of them as example of good mediumship, I would like to see that! :)


(as for the PM messages, I think that Clancie can be quite pleased with herself. Renata: close but no cigar.) :)

LOL! Sometimes you get the psychic, sometime the psychic gets you. Well...you said I was close. I sent you several guesses...were any correct? Pm me :) If you don't feel like letting me know now, so be it. However, there is one problem with some people having identified psychics. At that point, like I mentioned before, it is no longer a game of tell the difference between a psychic medium and a cold reader. If someone reckognizes a reading or style of a particular medium (like I thought I did :)) it invalidates their scoring of that reading. In other words, they know through other means whether the reading is by an admitted cold reader or a self professed medium. So for the one I identified, if I was correct (I was sure sure!:D) I would not count it in the final tally, because I knew it through other means. Does that make sense?

Thanks for all your work here :)

[Clancie]

Posted by ersby
I'd like some explanations behind (peoples') choices.
Hi ersby,

Well, I didn't pay any attention to what I think of as "style". I just looked at the information given--whether it was validated or not...whether it looked like it was based on something the sitter said or not...how much a "spirit communicator" seemed involved in it...how specific or unique it was, or how "generally true" it seemed. (I also noticed that I tend to like hits on names, as opposed to some other kinds of hits that were here).

I pretty much ranked them (2 (mediocre) then 4 ....followed by 1,3,5 tied as "indistinguishable from cold reading"--nothing that seemed information the sitter didn't give first, or else just looking like generalities and guesses. (btw, none of this is what I PM'd ersby about).

Reading #1: Medium says there's a male coming through but never identifies him. "Michael", a common name, could be made to fit (and was--a past acquaintance, apparently stilll iving ); "10" could also fit in many ways (here, the birthday). "Cooking" could go either way..."something broken in the kitchen" is one of the things on Ian's cold reading list...."Grandma singing" looks like a guess (she didn't)....same for the animal (none)...the picture (a generality--the sitter made it fit)..."hoarder" could have gone any way to make a hit...llkewise for "cleaning".....Imo, this reading was very, very general....

Reading #2: Well, if the medium is going to ask who the sitter wants to contact he/she should be prepared to carry the ball after that. This medium misses on "male?", then tries to save it by apparently seeing if there's some deceased male. ("That side" looks like just fishing. He gets lucky with "mom's", but could have saved it if it was dad's). "Breast cancer" is wrong, despite being a very likely possibility (and not even a hit for "cancer" apparently. The "could be living person or a scare" just seemed like an embarrassing effort to save a miss)

Medium says that the passing was unexpected (reasonable, since the sitter has ruled out cancer, making heart attack or accident more likely)...Medium doesn't know that the deceased's mother and father are still alive (s/he accepts "grandfather" as "father", to make a miss into a quasi-hit...) Sending love (or in this case a "big hello") is always an eye roller....

S/he gets an apparent hit on Joseph or John name for Grandfather...common names, but still a hit if the sitter's validation was clearer in the transcript. Says next month is "anniversary...birthday...passing..." No validation, despite how broad it is. The "fast passing" is rather obvious by this point. A generic "dog" is something most sitters could make fit. I thought "Jeannie" was a good hit. Being gone more than two years--could go either way...."Feel you're close, like sisters" (The woman has paid a lot for this reading; they were obviously close). Guesses that the deceased has a brother (if not, he could say he'd already been shown the sister). Not horrible, not impressive. Mediocre.

Reading #3. The biggest problem with this one is the sitter tells FAR too much. She says that her father died in Vietnam (the medium then talks about a medal...duh). She didn't know him (medium can say anything then--and does...re: "vigorous, likes sports") Medium "sees" father watching a little girl (could be sitter, her daughter...but, no, she fits it with a niece ). Sitter tells him her father's name. Tells that her female best friend has also died.

Considering all the information this medium was told he's certainly not a very good cold/warm reader, and there's nothing evidential. (And the "he's watching over you"..."you're blessed" stuff always leaves me cold....)

Reading #4: Starts out okay...Medium talking about a deceased male over 60, but someone could say that when sitter doesn't respond it becomes uncle or grandfather rather than father (i.e. a cold reading tactic). "Went to hospital more than once" (not uncommon for someone who has died) "Billy or Bobby...'B' name"...Sitter says someone has passed like that....(The transcript may suffer a bit because s/he obviously isn't interested in hearing from this person, her great uncle...)

Medium asks about learning a language or being bilingual (again, a common occurrence, but could also be going somewhere. Its a "yes", but...could apply to most people, one way or another, especially as it isn't developed further). Dying at "dusk or dawn"--sitter doesn't know, so unless its meaningful to someone else closer to the deceased, it just seems like filler. "April or 4 is an important date"--that's good, both sisters have birthdays in April. (But, again, can't most people find significance in most months, if given the chance to?)

Medium tries "only child?" Miss. "Only daughter?" Miss. Medium looks like s/he's just saving it with "why would he put you apart from the family? A separation? estrangement?" Sitter is helpful, but the answer is basiclly still..."No"

Medium asks if they’ve ever had any connection with mountains. "Yes", and it relates to the deceased uncle the medium claims to be communicating with....BUT the problem here is that all the medium said was "mountain". That could have meant....anything.

Medium explores if the sitter left something on the mountain...etc. Different attempts with it...all yield....nothing. Throws out a "dog" that goes nowhere, basically. Gets "Sam" which could be 'ghost' the friend believed in or a cat. Medium chooses 'ghost'. Then proceeds to describe a very typical layout for an inexpensive apartment that a young person might be likely to live in (i.e. small kitchen and living room near each other). "Flower motif?" Appears to be a guess for girl's apartment, but sitter doesn't know. "TV in corner of the room...photo or picture near it"....all this is very common.

At the end the medium gets two names "Bill" and "Pat". The deceased uncle's brother was Bill and his sister (the only sibling alive still) is "Pat" (was this the "only child?" or "only sister" the medium mentioned earlier? Or is thinking like that just another example of "making it fit", since it -didn't- describe the sitter, as the medium seemed to be intending at the time?) This was actually good information, (and might have seemed better to someone who wanted to hear from the uncle) except that the Uncle Rod part of the reading was -also- quite derailed with lots of ordinary things that looked exactly like "guesswork going nowhere"...the apartment....dog...."Sam"....flowers...etc. So...again...interesting in some parts; in others....indistinguishable from cold reading.

So, parts could be argued as linked to the great uncle Rod (including the names of two siblings)...and perhaps would be more evidential for his sister than his great niece....or maybe its just random information that has to be sifted through--with about half of it ignored--in order to even be able to "extract" a coherent reading from it. I rate it weaker than #2 for that reason and not above "mediocre"...same reason....

Reading 5--"elderly woman, average height, gray hair, a little stout, difficulty breathing in her later years...lots of medical conditions in her later years...."...certainly it should fit someone.

This one does the "astrology technique"..."feisty, but loving"..."stubborn but sweet"....Sending love....blah, blah, blah..... IMO, another highly unconvincing effort.....

[Clancie]

Posted by renata

If someone reckognizes a reading or style of a particular medium (like I thought I did ) it invalidates their scoring of that reading. In other words, they know through other means whether the reading is by an admitted cold reader or a self professed medium. So for the one I identified, if I was correct (I was sure sure!) I would not count it in the final tally, because I knew it through other means. Does that make sense?
Actually, imo, no, it doesn't. :)

By that reasoning, anyone who read ersby's transcripts and had any passing thought that, "That might be JE...or Sylvia....or Ian....or Colin Fry...." would be eliminated from evaluating the readings...and probably leave ersby having the transcripts evaluated by people who've never thought much about mediumship, or never seen anyone's work to compare the "evidential" nature of these with, etc.

However, I -do- plan to recuse myself on one of them for a different reason, but as for -privately- speculating on who they might be as you and I did through PMs or malcolmd did in his post (or others have probably done privately)? That's just a fun parlor game -after- trying to first decide if they're good examples of mediumship, of cold reading, or some unexpected/expected combination of the two.

[renata]

Originally posted by Clancie

Actually, no, it doesn't.

By that reasoning, anyone who read ersby's transcripts and had any passing thought that, "That might be JE...or Sylvia....or Ian....or Colin Fry...." would be eliminated from evaluating the readings...and probably leave ersby having the transcripts evaluated by people who've never thought much about mediumship, or never seen anyone's work to compare the "evidential" nature of these with, etc.

However, I -do- plan to recuse myself on one of them for a different reason, but as for -privately- speculating on who they might be as you and I did through PMs or malcolmd did in his post (or others have probably done privately)? That's just a fun parlor game -after- trying to first decide if they're good examples of mediumship, of cold reading, or some unexpected/expected combination of the two.

Ah, perhaps I was not clear.

The purpose of this thread, as I understood it is to see if people could see the difference between cold readers and self professed psychic mediums. Let's say, for the sake of argument only, that the following are the real readers (and I am picking names out of a hat, at random, so if it is true, it is pure coincidence
1. James Randi
2. Michael Shermer
3. Sylvia Browne
4. Brian Hurst
5. Claus Larsen (hey, why not? ;))

Let's say I saw reading 3 on the internet a few months back. I think the fair thing to do would be for me to say I am guessing these values for readings 1,2,4&5 but as I happen to know who the reader for 3 is, it is unfair for me to say it, because saying I guessed it will unfairly pad my total result.

Now let's say I did not see any readings on the internet, so they are new to me. However, one reading is very different than the rest, same reading 3, for example. Furthermore, I am very familiar with works of Sylvia Browne, and she has a unique, immediately reckognizable style. If I identified reading 3 as Sylvia Browne's first because of her unique style, and psychic medium's second because of I knew she calls herself such, as opposed to examining the reading itself like I did with the other readings, and deciding it was mediumship because it produced better hits, I would think it would skew the results, and give me credit I did not deserve, especially compared to people who actually examined the readings on face value to differentiate between cold readers and psychic mediums.

There was one reading in this bunch I thought I identified in exactly such a way. I identified the style of the medium first it practically jumped off the page at me. I PMed Ersby, and if I am correct, I will not count that reading in my results, because I think that will inflate them, and I do not want to come upon a higher result than I deserve by the rules of this game unfairly- not my style, even in a silly game :) Of course if I am wrong, I will count it.

I do not mean to apply this to random guesses, or passing thoughts like you mentioned. In addition to the certainty guess, there were several others- I told Ersby things like in reading X this reminded me of Y, however etc etc. Those are just speculations and I agree would not necessitate in my recusal.

But of course it is my own choice, you or anyone are free to do as you wish with their results in this little experiment :)

[Loki]

Ersby,

You wanted *reasons* for the guesses!? Oh, okay.....

Basically, I went mainly on "style" over "substance" (since the substance seems pretty mediocre across the board). As a general "rule of thumb" I think the psychic cold-readers, having had plenty of paid practise over the years, often have a rythymn to their presentation. Amateur cold-readers often feel more "stop/start", with less flow between the misses. There's also often an stronger air of "confidence" around the psychics - after all, they have to "sell" the sitter on their abilities to stay in business. Amateur cold readers often aren't that commited to succeeding!

[NoZed Avenger]

The criteria for judging "success" is some formula involving

Accuracy
Consistency (Ratio of hits to misses)
Quality

However, the weights to be assigned will vary from person to person, and perhaps even from reading to reading. That is where many arguments come in.

Also, there is a somewhat intangible "style" factor.

Factoring in "style," I would say that the No. 2 reading suffers considerably, for example. The J-O/O-J stuff was very forcing; the language used was broad and had a definite "fishing/forcing" feel that I associate with most cold reading. If you were strictly looking to decide cold read/non cold-read rather than look for accuracy, then this extra, hard-to-define factor plays a bigger role.

[Clancie]

Since I think mediumship is possible, my way of evaluating these readings may have been a little different from the people who think its all cold reading anyway.

I read each transcript as if I was the sitter and asked myself if it would have seemed evidential to me, as my own reading validating as the sitter did, and why/why not. I tried to see if they seemed like pure mediumship, pure cold reading, or a mixture of the two.

In real life, I have had readings that were as bad as these...readings that were even worse than some of them...and readings that I felt were much, much better.

I ranked the five, and enjoyed the chance to do it. But, in reality, had any of them been for me I would not have gone home convinced that spirit communication had taken place in any of them. (But then...the secret is that JE's readings on CO probably wouldn't do that for me either, whether they are genuine mediumship and evidential for his sitters in the gallery or not....)

[Aussie Thinker]

Clancie,

What on Earth has led you to believe mediumship is possible ?

Don’t the countless fraud and cheat exposures sway you in some small way ?

You certainly seem educated enough in the way these people operate that it surprises me you believe some to be genuine .. isn’t the default situation.. FRAUD .. then even if you find some remarkable coincidence you just assume they were lucky or have found a way of fooling you that you do not understand ?

[Clancie]

Aussie Thinker,
I don't want to derail the thread, but I'll just say...it's been a long and involved process for me. (And I agree with some of what you say, but not that fraud -has- to be the default position.... I think the default position is doubt....)

NoZed Avenger,

The sample you posted (especially the first half) is pretty interesting. (If ersby had included it, I would have scored it the best of the bunch--with the caveats renata has already enumerated). So...I'm curious. Is this "medium" someone who considered him/herself to have an actual ability as a medium? Or does he/she only claim to be a good cold reader and good party entertainer?

(And, if the former, what do your friends think of her abilities? And any comments or reaction from the sitter or other guests after the demo? Any further comments about the demo from the medium?)

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Clancie
NoZed Avenger,

The sample you posted (especially the first half) is pretty interesting. (If ersby had included it, I would have scored it the best of the bunch--with the caveats renata has already enumerated). So...I'm curious. Is this "medium" someone who considered him/herself to have an actual ability as a medium? Or does he/she only claim to be a good cold reader and good party entertainer?

(And, if the former, what do your friends think of her abilities? And any comments or reaction from the sitter or other guests after the demo? Any further comments about the demo from the medium?)

Yep -- I have some more information about the session - a few comments made afterwards by the Sitter and Medium, as well as some extra analysis from me -- I wanted to give everyone a chance to look it over with a fresh eye before filling in too much information or inadvertently biasing the reading by saying too much myself.

I'll give it a bit more time -- and probably fill in the gaps tomorrow evening (if that sounds good to all).

I do want to thank you and Renata for looking it over.

N/A

[NoZed Avenger]

Ok. I had another look at the original 5, and have a few small items to add.

Slightly out oif order:

With 3, the sitter gives WAY too much info and the reading is too short to draw any real conclusions. The John miss here was both an extremely broad guess and a wash-out. I would say that this reader was not too experienced or unlucky - cold reader.

2 had several typical transitional methods used by cold readers, but was done pretty skillfully. The move from topic to topic seemed smoother than the majority of the readings. Probably a professional, but it is hard for me to not call it cold reading given the technique invovled. Borderline.

1 Seemed to be in a different type of format - not like it was spoken at all. Several guesses bunched together; broadening of initial guesses. Cold reading techniques and not done poorly, but the feel is less polished than 2 or 4, say. Cold Reader.

4 I think I recognize this reading - vaguely. The sitter is very chatty and hands over a lot of information -- almost as bad as the initial burst of information in 3. The information is not as blatant here, but a LOT of information is being provided. The technique is similar, buit again, the transitions seem more natural here: professional.

5 Again. The style here is one that I think I recognize, though I may be mistaken. Professional - going solely on the style factor, as the reading itself (chest; goes quickly) seems very cold-readerish. On accuracy, so-so. Stylistically, professional.


Edited to add: One further thing. The sitter. The sitter was so helpful in No. 4 that I have to believe that the Medium was professional. The sitter was just too chatty - too willing to hand over details.

[renata]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


Yep -- I have some more information about the session - a few comments made afterwards by the Sitter and Medium, as well as some extra analysis from me -- I wanted to give everyone a chance to look it over with a fresh eye before filling in too much information or inadvertently biasing the reading by saying too much myself.

I'll give it a bit more time -- and probably fill in the gaps tomorrow evening (if that sounds good to all).

I do want to thank you and Renata for looking it over.

N/A


I am hopoing more people post their opinions on Nozed's reading before you fill in the gaps. Do they agree with the comments so far?

I am a little disappointed more people are not participating in Ersby's challenge. I hope it is not because people are afraid to guess wrong, and look foolish :). That is a very silly stance. Ersby says he is waiting to hear from some people still! Come on, there are people here who have opened ourselves up to making errors- real skeptics are not afraid to be shown wrong and make mistakes! Unless you helped Ersby and know the results, you better make some guesses quick, before he announces the results. :D

If you do not play now, you better not criticize anyone, skeptic or believer, for sticking their necks out with guesses and being right or wrong, that is all I gotta say. And don't mess with me- I live in LA, we got fires, we are about to get floods, the supermarkets are on strike, the buses don't run, the freeways are congested, my electricity went out for 4 hours today, Arnie is the governator, and I am a little cranky.

[Ersby]

I was kind of hoping that the skeptics from the tvtalkshows board would weigh in. I've not seen Lurker or Instig8r recently, though, nor RC come to mention it. Plus, though it was a forlorn hope, it would have been nice to hear what showme2, Lucian and sgrenard thought. Seems like it's not to be. Of course, they aren't the only ones. But it'd be rude to get people to participate in something they don't care for so I won't hold it against anyone.

Post or PM your thoughts if you want. I'm away for the weekend, so tomorrow I'll post the results rather than let this drag out 'til Monday. Hurry hurry hurry!

Meanwhile, NoZed’s reading is interesting. It starts very well. He even goes against what I would have expected, when he asks if she was named after the grandmother AFTER he’s established they have different names (Rose, Jan). Very clever, and a bit of a risk. Nice guess on twins/Gemini too. It’s a good way to guess about twins in the family and a June connection at the same time. Then he spoils it by specifically asking about a June connection: effectively going for the same guess twice. Most odd. After a while it collapses into horoscope-esque niceties, but I think it starts very strongly. I agree, this is the strongest reading on this thread, but then, the medium does have a number of people to start with.

[Clancie]

Yes, I'd be interested to know what some of the knowledgeable critics of mediumship from TVT (g8r, Lurker, RC, a few others...) would make of these readings, too. I hope they -do- come back here before tomorrow.

And personally I find it odd that there are no guesses from some of the people who usually rush into every thread I post on in order to mock or attempt to discredit things I have written (even if it means misrepresenting them). Where are -those- people when it comes time to analyze something on their own and stick their -own- neck out by independently taking a position?
Posted by ersby

Post or PM your thoughts if you want
I had one final thought, a little off topic. I still don't have any idea which of my guesses are right and which are wrong. But in trying to answer the question: "cold reading vs. mediumship", I was reminded of your own cold reading efforts with the dice.

I didn't realize before this that one important feature of "dice readings"....that it eliminates the "defense" if admitted cold readers do well (I'm thinking of Ian or Mark Edward)....that "they must have psychic ability and not know it." (which, of course, is possible). The dice eliminates that "hidden ability" theory as a possibility.....

[Darat]

Sent this to Ersby via PM, but I thought I'd copy it in here with a few edits for clarity.

******


Had a look to see if I can identify which are "real" and which are "cold reading". (Have to admit to date my opinion is that there are no "real" ones - so for me it is the difference between a "practised" medium and an amateur one.)

First reading that starts with " Okay... I’m sensing a male on the other side of the same age as you."

I'd say this is cold reading. (Or a JVP reading - because he's the only TV one I’ve seen this bad!)

The reason being is the responses by the sitter. They seem rather dry and factual as if there is no emotional involvement in whether communication is happening or not. Whilst the medium's comments etc. seem too specific for a successful medium.

Second reading, "OK, who are you trying to connect with?"

I'd say this is a mediumistic reading. The info from the medium is totally vague and has so many avenues being opened up with every comment that I can see anything being assigned a "hit" by the sitter. And there seems to be a much more "sitting on the edge of the seat" from the sitter, as if they want it to be true or expect it to be true and are only hearing the responses that confirm that.

Third reading

Hardest one for me to tell but I suspect CR, the reason being the sitter's responses. Simple one word answers, no "ohs" etc. I would say this sitter knew the person was meant to be cold reading.

The reason I’m most on the fence with this one is I think because it could be this transcripts starts halfway through a reading(?) However if this is start of this reading I would then probably think it was a "real" medium, because there was inherent prompting (i.e. on a phone in) to start by giving info to the medium, even though we know the “real” mediums never want any info from their sitters? :)

Fourth Reading "I’m sensing a male who’s passed, he’s over sixty."

CR - Although the phrase "And is there an important date for the family in April or on the 4 th of a month, because I’m seeing a four." really reminds me of JE a "real" medium. Typical JE technique with numbers, starts with a "specific" and widens it to include anything at all that could be associated with a 4! But hey JE is a cold reader if you ask me!

Fifth Reading

"Real" medium. The references to "check it out later", the total vagueness of info and the number of "hits" that could be interpreted seems very high, looks like a "practised" medium.

So that's my opinion. Only spent about five minutes reading the transcripts and haven't gone back to them to double check, thought I'd go with first impressions.

[voidx]

While I agree NoZed's listed reading is probably the best, I still don't see it as all that good either. I mostly agree with Renata's scoring of the reading with perhaps a few thoughts of my own.

Guess, Old lady, Rose connection:
What's important here is that the sitter was fished out of the crowd. The medium tosses out old lady and rose to the party crowd and gets a hit, overall a weak hit in my opinion and then continues with that person. Also I find it odd that a medium if seeing twin roses, wouldn't mention this at first, but would wait until the first rose is claimed before later moving on to mention the "twin" rose.

Guess, named after grandmother:
I differ with Renata on this one. Its not uncommon at all for nieces/nephews to get named after grandmothers/fathers. And I would argue that its generally the middle name that is used. A weak hit at best as 1) medium new grandmothers name, and 2) knew sitters first name. So her middle name being her grandmothers name wasn't to much of a stretch. What I do find a little surprising that it was the grandmother from the fathers side. I would imagine that the wife would be more involved perhaps in naming the child, and would then name her after her own mother, but I suppose its not unlikely that the father would want his daughter to carry his own mothers name, so perhaps not so surprising. Hard to say.

Guess, Gemini, twin:
Pretty safe guess, if the grandmother had not been a twin, medium could have tried just following the Gemini sign angle. A weak hit, but 3 weak hits in a row, so doing better than many of the other listed readings.

Guess, little boy fishing:
This is pretty wide as well. Obviously the medium transfers the image of the child to the father when he was little. So long as any male at any time connected to the fathers side liked fishing, there's a hit. Father likes fishing so bingo, its an image of the father as a child, weak hit at best. The medium then tries to expand on the idea that the father was always fishing all the time, this isn't validated, or if it is we can't tell, so the fishing angle doesn't really seem to go anywhere. Medium also tries to nail a specific on the fishing pole. Of course anyone having an old fishing pole could tell you that almost all of them where black and green :D, so again pretty generic. We also have no idea if this is claimed by the sitter, but it would seem that its not.

Guess, sister? Younger?:
This is fishing for info at its best. Have a sister? Yes, Linda. Younger? Yes. Yah cuz I'm being told to acknowledge a young girl Linda. Gimme a break, not scoring this a hit.

The rest are just general platitudes like Renata mentions. Even the sitter seems to have the attitude of "yah ok, whatever". While overall this is probably the most successful reading, its still not impressive to me at all. But obviously this medium has some practice. Like I mentioned before, the pro's (whether they think their real or are knowingly being frauds) control the encounter. Watch JE, watch any other pro medium, they do everything they can to not let the sitter ramble on too much. It just gives a much more professional and smooth feel to the reading, which is how I scored my votes for the 5 other readings. I assume that "real" mediums have just simply had more practice to smooth out their schtick and technique.

[Garrette]

I'll give it a quick shot, but only skimmed each reading once.

I was unsure what criteria I was supposed to be using, so I sort of did three things:

1) I think 2, 3, and 5 are the mediums while 1 and 4 are the cold readers. This is based on the style, but not just of the reader; the style of the sitters' responses also seemed more in line with someone who believed.

2) Without regard for which is actually and factually and statistically the best reading, I think 2, 3, and 5 would seem to be the best with 4 being next and 1 being the worst.

3) I think that 5 would actually come out as the worst reading after a thorough analysis with the rest roughly tied.

Hope that's okay for a quick shot at it.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by renata
I am a little disappointed more people are not participating in Ersby's challenge. I hope it is not because people are afraid to guess wrong, and look foolish :). That is a very silly stance. Ersby says he is waiting to hear from some people still! Come on, there are people here who have opened ourselves up to making errors- real skeptics are not afraid to be shown wrong and make mistakes! Unless you helped Ersby and know the results, you better make some guesses quick, before he announces the results. :D

If you do not play now, you better not criticize anyone, skeptic or believer, for sticking their necks out with guesses and being right or wrong, that is all I gotta say.

I strenuously object, Your Honor.

I can't tell the difference between a psychic medium and a cold reader. I am not the one who claim that I can, so what's the point?

It is up to those who claim they can, to prove it. It will be very interesting to see how they fare. I predict that if they are shown wrong, they will point to the changed information in the readings as a reason for them failing.

Which is "best"? Hard to say. They all suck, if you ask me...(well, you did!) :)

Originally posted by renata
And don't mess with me- I live in LA, we got fires, we are about to get floods, the supermarkets are on strike, the buses don't run, the freeways are congested, my electricity went out for 4 hours today, Arnie is the governator, and I am a little cranky.

Well, don't blame us for you living in a place that attracts so many disasters. Heck, you even VOTE to get another! Are you guys masochists or what? :D

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I strenuously object, Your Honor.

I can't tell the difference between a psychic medium and a cold reader. I am not the one who claim that I can, so what's the point?

Point is, oh my little Danish, that this is a little challenge. There are no stakes, nobody wins, nobody loses, nobody crows, nobody does a victory dance (unless I win, then in your face everybody!!!!)

If you do not participate, even to guess, and then pounce on those who guessed wrong, it appears that you...what is the word I am looking for...oh yes, chickened out. :p Incidently, I have not had poultry for almost a month because I will not cross picket lines at my local supermarket. But seeing you post in this thread will always remind me of chickens of yore....

Would you care to guess before my cranky self starts making chicken noises and posting images?:) And don't give me the whole they all suck routine- everyone agrees with that. Put up or shut up, or the bailiff will drag you away and sentence you to making you hunt for food and cook me dinner from unfrozen and uncanned ingredients for 30 days. ( I am a little sick of the strike....can you tell?)

I have decided I might become a heckler to anyone who chooses to criticize people for getting things wrong here while not participating themselves. Past month in LA just added a little extra to my meanness (Comments from the side- there was room?)

[NoZed Avenger]

-- Spoiler alert --







Ok. I was the medium for this demonstration. It was in fact my first try at a live cold reading. The details posted were as stated - I did not know the subject.

I did know her name from her response to the evite for the partyy - along with 2 others. I therefore knew her middle initial was 'R.'

When we arrived, she had a piece of jewelry with a rose motif. I decided (1) middle name was Rose, and (2) named after her grandmother.

I could have simply stated that at the beginning for a big 'hit' but decided it would not be believable. So I worked into with the "Roses" bit. Unfortunately, some of my thunder was stolen when she volunteered the name; I should have handled it differently to allow me to hit her with the information -- inexperience on my part and a desire to avoid having it look too suspicious.

The rest was analyzed pretty well.

The "Gemini" bit was taken directly from a JE reading on this very board -- one of Renata's, I think. It was just lucky that she was a twin.

The "June" thing, likewise. was a direct copy of the "number or month" gambit. I had decided to do a month based on any birthstones that I could see -- every medium MUST know birthstones, IMO. Unfortunately, there weren't any. So I went with June. Who doesn't have a Wedding anniversary or Birthday or SOMETHING in June. Well, this girl, apparently.

The "independent" thing was modified from a cold reading book; I think that my version is an improvement for reasons that would bore you.


Edited to add: the fishing pole thing was validated, but it didn't come out and I did not therefore "add" my memory/impression.


N/A

[renata]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Brilliant!!! Very well done, NoZed!! I wish more people would have posted on your reading. Very, very impressive.

I have some questions for you- when you said you were looking for Gemini, were you going for a sister commection, or a birthday connection? Why did you say two roses? Were you doubling the guess as I suspected, or were you going for soulmate connection? How responsive was the sitter? Did you get a lot of information from her? The Rose and the twin are exactly the examples of hits that looked really impressive but had you been wrong could have been smoothed over. It is clear to me that a professional medium would have noticed the rose motif on a bracelet, and might have known the middle initial as well, if it was a private reading, and thus would have taken the same route. Even the June miss you tried to save rather well, passing it on to the girl's grandmother. Are you sure you are not psychic after all? :D


Edited to add
Here is theGemini bit (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870017640&highlight=gemini#post1870017640) from JE. I say you did a whole lot better in your reading ;) (to be fair you had visual cues...on the other hand, it was your very first reading)
They're also telling me to tell you that the 14th of a month is significant. So I don't know if there's a birthday or an anniversary on the 14th. And they're showing me the sign of Gemini, which either means that somebody is a twin or that somebody's actually the sign of Gemini. OK? That's No. 1.
Your dad must have a sister or a female figure to his side, whose also there, that passed before him. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Yes.

[Loki]

NoZed Avenger

Are you sure you are not psychic after all?
Renata has nailed it! You have the power my friend, whether you choose to admit it to yourself or not.

Good stuff. Now, we just need to get you and Schwartz together...

[renata]

Originally posted by Loki
NoZed Avenger


Renata has nailed it! You have the power my friend, whether you choose to admit it to yourself or not.

Good stuff. Now, we just need to get you and Schwartz together...

Look, between this reading and his prediction about Steve....hey, I am getting on the NoZed bandwagon! In fact, I was in his fanclub long ago (check the sig!!!) :D

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by renata
Point is, oh my little Danish, that this is a little challenge. There are no stakes, nobody wins, nobody loses, nobody crows, nobody does a victory dance (unless I win, then in your face everybody!!!!)

If you do not participate, even to guess, and then pounce on those who guessed wrong, it appears that you...what is the word I am looking for...oh yes, chickened out. :p Incidently, I have not had poultry for almost a month because I will not cross picket lines at my local supermarket. But seeing you post in this thread will always remind me of chickens of yore....

Would you care to guess before my cranky self starts making chicken noises and posting images?:) And don't give me the whole they all suck routine- everyone agrees with that. Put up or shut up, or the bailiff will drag you away and sentence you to making you hunt for food and cook me dinner from unfrozen and uncanned ingredients for 30 days. ( I am a little sick of the strike....can you tell?)

I have decided I might become a heckler to anyone who chooses to criticize people for getting things wrong here while not participating themselves. Past month in LA just added a little extra to my meanness (Comments from the side- there was room?)

PMS.

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


PMS.

Now...boys and girls...can we tell little Claus whether that was that wise?

Stop hijacking the thread, make predictions, or go the way of your compatriots here.

http://www.dsi.org/products/images/poultry_bil1.jpg

[Ersby]

Okay, it doesn’t look as if we’ll get any more people offering their views. I'll put a stop to all this nonsense by revealing the results. I must say I’m a little sad at the outcome. Safe to say: I was thoroughly unveiled as an impostor. The answers were:

1, cold reader, me, over the internet (so it was written, not spoken: well done NZA), Oct ‘03
2, John Holland, radio ‘phone-in, May ‘03
3, James Van Praagh, Larry King Live, Dec ‘97
4, cold reader, me again, internet, Oct ‘03
5, Jason Oliver, telephone reading, July ‘01

So it looks like most people here were able to tell the psychic from the cold reader.

For the record, Clancie correctly spotted JVP and Jason Oliver. NZA correctly identified me as medium1. (He also said JE was medium4, which was interesting because I used several JE-isms in it) From this thread we can conclude (more or less) that there is a difference between a practiced psychic and my inexperienced cold reading. But I think we can also say the difference is getting smaller. I’d say these were better than my previous attempts, especially given that reading 4 was fairly highly regarded by some. And I’d like to repeat my claim that you won’t find much better unedited transcripts to only one sitter than these. I looked for months. Honestly, none of these are posted because I thought they were bad. Readings 2 and 5 were the ones posted as examples of how good a reading can be (I think so, at least: the poster’s intentions were never made explicit).

My notes (and excuses) about the readings, for what they’re worth:

Reading one was done using private messages on another (non paranormal) board. To be honest, I sort of knew the person: at least I knew certain things that I could’ve easily used to improve the reading so I avoided those subjects. In fact, so keen was I to not use hot reading, that I refrained from using a line of guesses that would have been obvious if she’d been a stranger to me: the sitter was a woman, and when she mentioned her girlfriend then that would have been the prompt for any number of assumptions about lesbians and their relationships to their families.

Other than that, I think the consensus is pretty fair. It’s a very stop and start reading, even if there are no major gaffs it didn’t have any coherence to it. But don’t you just love my heart warming message at the end?

Reading two was the favourite, which surprised me a little. The “Genie/Gina” hit is the best hit amongst all five readings which perhaps tilted things in its favour. I did consider changing the spelling of “Genie” to “Jeannie” to lessen the similarity between the two (it was transcribed by a believer) but decided to leave it be. Other than that there’s nothing before “Gina” to suggest he’s in contact with the spirit of the cousin, and not much after.

Reading three also did well, even if the sitter blabs everything at the beginning. It’s very smooth, especially under the quick fire nature of LKL. Surprisingly good work for JVP.

Reading four was done over the internet on the same board as reading one, but on this occasion I barely knew the sitter at all. It’s a good illustration of how knowing less about a sitter makes for a better reading, especially one as talkative as this. Also, in my humble opinion :D, it was very harshly judged. I put it down to the whole Sam episode. I should’ve skipped over it or talked about the cat, but this was now the second time I’ve “brought through” someone known to the sitter who may not have ever actually existed! I found this funny and got carried away (I’ll post that first reading after this post, just for fun). But at the same time, why would it be so strange to communicate with a ghost?

But at its heart, reading 4 fulfils a number of roles that ADC should have. The identity of the spirit is established early on, information relating directly to that spirit is given (B name, Pat, mountain, hospital twice) and so is information about the sitter (studying languages, April connection, dog). When I posted this, I felt quite confident about its chances. Ah well, you live and learn.

The thing about saving the “only daughter” guess by saying “Why is he singling you out?” was lifted directly from JE. It didn’t work for him either! And how can people discount the Pat guess!? Almost on a par with “Genie”! I’m going to dine out on that one for years!

Reading five was the one cut in half. Actually, this is only about a third of the reading. It goes on in much the same vein for a long time before it ends with some platitudes about mother/daughter relationships. It’s very smooth and assured, and when I posted these I figured this would be the favourite. He’s not really wrong about anything. I had to edit out the occasional “That’s beautiful” reaction from the sitter (replacing it with “ok”) because it would’ve been too obvious a clue. I cut it when I did because at that point another spirit comes through and the grandmother is not mentioned again so it seemed a natural place to stop. The whole thing is on Jason Oliver’s website.

An interesting experiment. Thanks to all who took part. Clancie and neofight can at least happily maintain their claim that they can (more or less) tell a genuine psychic from a cold reader. And so, it seems, can everyone else.

…

Looks like I need more practice.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Ersby
The answers were:

1, cold reader, me, over the internet (so it was written, not spoken: well done NZA), Oct ‘03
2, John Holland, radio ‘phone-in, May ‘03
3, James Van Praagh, Larry King Live, Dec ‘97
4, cold reader, me again, internet, Oct ‘03
5, Jason Oliver, telephone reading, July ‘01

Looks like I need more practice.

Interesting. I got 4 out of five right. The one I fell down on was number two. I though most practicing mediums would be far less transparent than that reading suggests. I've never heard of John Holland. If the reading is typical of his performance I think I understand why!

Ersby, you need more than practice to become a convincing 'medium'. You also need to become a selfish and unscrupulous manipulator of vulnerable people.

After all, that's how the other 'mediums' have succeeded.

[renata]

Very interesting, Erbsy

I, for the record thought (like malcolm, I guess:)) that reading 2 was Van Praagh, with the Pleases. I was going to disqualify it if I was right, and keep it if I was was wrong...I was wrong :)

I thought 5 was Altea, as she frequently talks about physical descriptions, and it had some very familiar descriptions.

I also thought reading 4 had very familiar John Edward type comments, but was not quite, someone who knew his style.

I thought reading one was a cold reader, but someone who used a comment I saw Sylvia Browne use many times, about having anyone younger than her appear as children.

Reading 3 I still think is a disaster, as sitter gave all info in first breath.

Ersby can confirm that I said all these things in a PM to him :)

I have not seen work of Jason Oliver or John Holland before. I have seen JVP, but I zeroed in on the wrong reading! Kudos to Clancie for reckognizing the correct readers.

I guess since I ultimately pegged 245 as psychics I got 3/5 right. Fooled me, Ersby :)

One thing I want to point out that one major difference was the way the readings were done. In other words all the psychic readings were done via phone and cold reading via internet. I think the choppiness were a factor in people going for one over the other. Do you know of mediums reading people over the internet? I understand you were constrained by the material you had, and appreciate the work you put in.

Notice that NoZed's reading was the best of the bunch, and he is a rather inexperienced cold reader. It is possible telephone or in person readings are simply much easier to do. It appears had his been part of the original set, it would have been pegged as a medium.

Ersby, what do you think of NoZed's reading, and how it compares to yours, now that you know he did it?

[Ersby]

I should've signed up for that "Manipulating vulnerable perople" course when I had the chance.

Oh, and before I forget, this was the last reading in which I brought through someone who may never have existed. I've posted it before, but it deserves a second airing. It was done courtesy of the pyschic dice ( http://www.skepticreport.com/funnies/psychicdice.htm ), and is perhaps its best reading.

....


ME: Okay, well first I’m getting a father figure. A father, step father, father in law, grandfather, someone like a father to you.

HIM: That’ll be my grandfather. But he wasn’t like a father to me.

ME: And they’re telling me a name. I don’t know if it’s their name or they’re telling me about someone, but who is… Steven?

HIM: I don’t know.

ME: A Stefan or Stan? An S-t name.

HIM: I do have a friend called Stefan.

ME: Why would you grandfather be talking about him? (laughter) Anyway, there’s someone else coming through. A mother figure, like a father, step mother, grandmother.

HIM: Ooh, could be my grandmother.

ME: There's someone on the other side who says they had pneumonia (note: I made a mistake here. Mediums are not usually so specific. I should’ve just said “Who had pneumonia?” and got a big hit with the response concerning the mother)

HIM: My grandfather did have pneumonia, but funnily enough my mother had pneumonia two weeks ago and nearly died.

ME: Oh, well they’re probably talking about that then. And now I’m being drawn towards a female energy on the other side. This’d be about your grandmother. I’m getting a name, but I don’t know if it’s hers or someone she’s connected to… it’s something like… a B name, Betty, Becky, Barbara… Who is this?

HIM: There is a Betty, but I don’t know who she is. Betty was the person my grandmother would talk to in her later stages of senile dementia.

ME: Okay, well, she’s with Betty now. (laughter) Anyway, this woman on the other side was very loving. She was a safe haven in a storm. Very trusting. Very honest.

HIM: (laughing) No, not really.

ME: Never mind. Now I’m being shown a place. A house. I don’t know where this is, or the connection. Let me describe it to you. Go through the front door and almost the first thing you see is some fruit and there’s a door to the left. This leads to the living room and the dominant feature of this room on the left is there’s a lot of earth tones, browns, beiges

HIM: That sounds a bit like my grandmother’s house.

ME: In what way?

HIM: Well, when you entered it, you’d go straight into the kitchen, where there was always fruit. The door on the left lead to a large hall which lead to the living room. As for the living room, well, yes, it had a kind of musty, brown décor.

ME: Okay, fair enough. I’m being drawn away from the house. Because now there’s a strong presence on the other side. Very strong, and determined. This person must have been quite a person to know! I’m sensing an aunt.

HIM: No. No aunts.

ME: The spirits are communicating two more names to me. There are two people with names like John, Joan, a J-o name.

HIM: Two people?

ME: Yes.

HIM: (after much umming and ahhing) No, I don’t think so.

ME: One person?

HIM: Actually, no.

ME: Not to worry. Is there a joke or story about going to the supermarket and always coming back with a lot more stuff than you needed?

HIM: No. My dad always made lists.

ME: Oh, well. Now I’m getting an eight, so is there a birthday or anniversary in August or on the eighth of a month?

HIM: August…

ME: Or the eighth of a month.

HIM: The ninth?

ME: Never mind, now they’re –

HIM: August was the time we’d go and see my grandmother.

ME: That’ll do. Now, they’re telling me that you’re concerned about a dependant. I don’t know if it’s a child or a pet, but there’s someone that depends on you for support and right now they’re causing you some worry.

HIM: Yes. My girlfriend. (some laughter, as the girlfriend was there)

ME: Now, they’re showing me a money sign. Somebody works in banking or finance.

HIM: That’ll be me.

ME: Now they’re talking about somebody, I don’t know if this person is still with us or has passed to the other side, but this image is coming through quite strongly. Who knew a lot?

HIM: Ah, my brother. (note: this may seem like a weak hit, but later on I discover that my friend’s brother is something of a genius.)

ME: Well, they’re very proud of you both. Now I’m getting something a little peculiar, Not the run-of-the mill type of communication. They’re trying to tell me something quite specific. Who saw the bad leg?

HIM: Who SAW the bad leg? My grandfather had a bad leg and had trouble walking.

ME: That’s fine. So now lastly they’re showing me a younger energy. Again, I don’t know if this person is alive or has passed. Who is the girl that was in a play or film?

HIM: Well, she’s not a younger energy, but Auntie Eunace was in a film. She was a Bond girl.

ME: I’ll take that. Thank you very much.

HIM: No, thank you.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by renata
Now...boys and girls...can we tell little Claus whether that was that wise?

Stop hijacking the thread, make predictions, or go the way of your compatriots here.

Never screw with a woman who has PMS... :D

Didn't get to post them, before Ersby spilled the beans. However, it's not that hard to "guess" which is which, especially not the psychics. The transcript of James van Praagh on LKL has been published, and he always ends on a somber, spiritual note ("All is good") so no surprise there.

As for medium 5, Jason Oliver, it was dead(!) easy:

MEDIUM5: I have a lady from the world of Spirit, but I'm getting a mother's energy, grandmother or mother,... she had, uh, I would call it salt & pepper hair, she wore it a little bit short, and she's a little on the stout side, she would be about 5'6" or 7". I'm estimating the height, there I may be wrong.

Googling for "a lady from the world of Spirit", we get this (as the only hit):

Jason Oliver: Oh, goodness,... I have a lady from the world of Spirit, but I'm getting a mother's energy, grandmother or mother,... she had, uh, I would call it salt & pepper hair, she wore it a little bit short, and she's a little on the stout side, she would be about 5'6" or 7". I'm estimating the height, there I may be wrong. * [ed. note - see below]
A telephone reading with psychic medium Jason Oliver (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/6623/jason1.htm)

Not impressive at all.

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Never screw with a woman who has PMS... :D

You are not helping yourself here....




Didn't get to post them, before Ersby spilled the beans.


You are right. Ersby only had the challenge for four days and only posted a warning yesterday saying he would be revealing the answers tonight....Poor Claus, victim of inconsiderate Ersby...


However, it's not that hard to "guess" which is which, especially not the psychics. The transcript of James van Praagh on LKL has been published, and he always ends on a somber, spiritual note ("All is good") so no surprise there.

Yes, it is really easy now that you know the answers. It was a little more difficult when you hemmed and hawed yesterday and refused to make guesses then, eh?


As for medium 5, Jason Oliver, it was dead(!) easy:

Googling for "a lady from the world of Spirit", we get this (as the only hit):


Actually, Ersby said these readings were available on the internet. He relied on our good faith not to cheat. And I just googled for them, and found readings 1,3 &5 on the internet. Had I done so before, I would have gotten 4/5 right. But, like Ersby said, what is the fun in cheating on this kind of game?


Not impressive at all.

Agreed.

Poor show, Claus.

[CFLarsen]

renata,

You may notice that Ersby moved the revelation up. So, don't blame me for that, chicken girl. ;)

As for not checking on the Internet? Trust is irrelevant in skepticism. I cannot accept any of these scores, since there were no controls.

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
renata,

You may notice that Ersby moved the revelation up. So, don't blame me for that, chicken girl. ;)


Hmmm...you must be eating that Danish feta Cleopatra has been telling me about.
Ersby posted yesterday


Post or PM your thoughts if you want. I'm away for the weekend, so tomorrow I'll post the results rather than let this drag out 'til Monday. Hurry hurry hurry!


After that you managed to make some posts on this very thread, commenting on why you won't post...Tsk Tsk. Evasion, evasion, evasion.


As for not checking on the Internet? Trust is irrelevant in skepticism. I cannot accept any of these scores, since there were no controls.

Why did you not raise those objections previously? Why only now? Ersby admitted from the beginning the readings were available. Is there anyone whose results show the pattern of cheating? And, finally, do you have any readings whatsoever that are better for this type of a comparison?

Excuse me, but all I see is evasion and criticism after the fact. I am afraid into the fryer you go.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by renata
Hmmm...you must be eating that Danish feta Cleopatra has been telling me about.
Ersby posted yesterday

He posted the results on 11-07-2003 04:34 AM.

It is now two hours later. Not "yesterday".

Originally posted by renata
After that you managed to make some posts on this very thread, commenting on why you won't post...Tsk Tsk. Evasion, evasion, evasion.

Not at all. I explained my views on this.

Originally posted by renata
Why did you not raise those objections previously? Why only now? Ersby admitted from the beginning the readings were available. Is there anyone whose results show the pattern of cheating? And, finally, do you have any readings whatsoever that are better for this type of a comparison?

As I said, no controls. Not worth anything.

Originally posted by renata
Excuse me, but all I see is evasion and criticism after the fact. I am afraid into the fryer you go.

Hmmm....maybe not PMS. Perhaps you are pregnant, and want strange food....

[Drooper]

Well, a big pat on the back for me.

Despite the fact the NOBODY on this thread has noticed AT ALL. I got 4 out of 5 correct. :mad: ;)

And Ersby, I managed to pick your two cold readings. :D :p

My explanation for getting your cold readings (or my maybe rationalisation for getting it right) was all in the apparent presentation. I pick 1 and 4 as cold reading because you went straight on the fishing expedition. I picked 2 and 3 as "real psychics" because their opening few contributions were out and out questions. If I go back to the readings, number 5 (my one error) was a borderline using this approach.

I know this sounds counter intuitive, but I have a theory that by opening with questions, especially personal ones, helps build a rapport with the sitter. As a contrast, opening with a barrage of statements does not. I know a sceptic would be impressed by a string of questions, but we are not the intended audience remember. This difference may not give a better hit rate for the "real psychics" but it would accomplish two things:

1. This is the most important. If a good rapport is established, the sitter will believe. think of how psychics reputations rest heavily on them being thought of in an affectionate way.

2. Building a strong rapport will increase the chance that the sitter will just blurt out information without prompting (and often without realising that they are doing it), giving the psychic extra ammunition.

Well, that's it.

BTW, did anybody get all 5 correct?

[Ersby]

Garrette came close, but that's thinking off the top of my head, since I'm literally out the door right now and have no time to check.

No Zed Avengers gets pladits for his techniques. Nice piece of work.

[Garrette]

Close?!

Close, schmose, buddy, I got all five.

My technique was similar to Drooper's, relying more on technique. The idea of rapport, though that word itself didn't enter my thoughts, was crucial.

[NoZed Avenger]

I thought 4 was JE. I thought I recognized the "mountain" thing and 2 other questions as being his. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions, but was led that way also by the amount of information given bny the sitter -- it led me to (wrongly) believe that it was a professional.

I was not familiar enough with other psychic's "style" to compare.

A good exercise.

N/A

[Clancie]

I love this thread! Thank you ersby. (And NoZed Avenger....great surprise ending!...I'm going to have a couple of comments/questions about it a little later...a very impressive first outing!).

re: my results (and from renata's exchange with CFL, I notice his only -after the fact- analysis was an effort to try to discredit the two guesses ersby said I got right! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

ersby,

This was great. But you don't give yourself enough credit. I thought reading #1 (though indistinguishable from cold reading) was much like Altea. And reading #4, though still high on the cold reading scale, I scored better than any other one except #2. (Actually, I'm pretty pleased with this because I originally debated whether to guess it was you (using JE sounding techniques) or JE (changed to your style). I picked wrong since I really made my choices based on info, not style, but I was kind of pleased to have noticed at least....)

Despite the problems I had with the Sam/ghost/apartment part, I thought the Pat/Bill thing related to the uncle was still better than the other three readings. So, imo, good job!

re the rest. I thought #2 was George Anderson. Even though I pointed out that Holland uses that phrase about validations (and have seen him live, been read by him via phone, and read his book), it never occurred to me that it was a JH reading :( .

I think its interesting that, whether people here think mediumship is real or its all just cold reading....we all agree that John Holland's was the best. (And I changed the spelling to "Jeannie" myself when commenting on it, since it seemed to "load the dice" too much the other way. Now I see why...)

As for #5...as I said earlier, I have to recuse myself on one of them, and this is it. I've been read by him and, although I haven't re-listened to the tape, its so much like what I remembered that I figured he'd cranked out a similar reading for someone you know. (I thought it was so bad at the time I had it--two years ago--that I never even remember to count "Jason Oliver" when I think of the readings I've had).

So...I think you did a great job selecting readings for us to compare....and am glad that the choices (whether believer or non) don't show (so far) that mediums are all indistinguishable from cold readers (though whether this is due to style or content will still, I'm sure, be debated!)

[voidx]

Heh well geez, I almost feel bad for razing on NoZed's reading so hard :). But I did mention it seemed to be the best out of all of them so I'm guilt free! Nice twist on the ending though.

Definately an interesting exercise.

Posted by Clancie:
So...I think you did a great job selecting readings for us to compare....and am glad that the choices (whether believer or non) don't show (so far) that mediums are all indistinguishable from cold readers (though whether this is due to style or content will still, I'm sure, be debated!)

While I agree I think that its clear in the example of these readings that they were distinguishable based on style and not content. Everyone in the thread commented on the readings being of poor quality, and everyone seemed to look for a familiar pattern in their own mind of what style seemed that of a "real" medium, and that of a cold reader. I think its obvious that the information garnered from all readings falls easily within the realm of cold reading, I don't see anything paranormal going on here. Its just that some of the examples of cold reading are wrapped in prettier packages than others :).

[NoZed Avenger]

Oh, btw -- though I was not really clear, the real reason I thought reading number one was ersby was the format -- it seemed to lack an oral quality -- it looked like an internet reading.

I committed the most basic of sins in an investigation, however, after finding a solution, I stopped looking. I did not think that he might use two of his own, so was not looking for the same types of tell-tale clues.

Sloppy methodology on my part all the way through -- I really should have spent more time on the exercise.

It was a good idea and a valuable tool for my learning curve, though.

N/A

[renata]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
Oh, btw -- though I was not really clear, the real reason I thought reading number one was ersby was the format -- it seemed to lack an oral quality -- it looked like an internet reading.



Agreed

Indeed it is interesting that hit quality wise Ersby's readings were significantly better than readings 3 and 5. He got more hits, and they were more accurate. It was the technique that gave it away, and I suspect that was the because all cold readings were internet readings, and all mediumship were telephone readings. I believe the comments about choppiness, inexpirienced cold readers, and others may be due to the internet/phone difference.

[Clancie]

Hi NoZed Avenger,

(And, again, thanks for sharing your first live performance as a cold reader!) I have a couple of comments and questions....
Posted by NoZed Avenger

M: Okay. Let me start out by saying that I have no real control over the impressions I get. Sometimes I feel things strongly, but sometimes- sometimes not as well. I’m . . I’m getting though a strong impression of an older lady, and I’m seeing a strong picture of roses. The roses are very strong, and I’m getting a definite feel that there is a strong connection to someone here. Is that making sense to anyone?

S: [Raised hand] My grandmother was named Rose.

M: Okay. Okay. Now you’re- ? [question]

S: Jan [changed].

M: Okay. But I am getting a very strong impression that you are connected to this energy – more than just your grandmother.

[pause]

M: Were you named after her, in fact?

S: [laughing] Yes, I was.

M: Middle name?

S: Yes.

M: Okay, because I’m seeing the connection there. I’m also seeing two roses together, two of them . . .and I’m seeing like- I’m seeing a picture of the symbol for Gemini, like there are twins involved. Does that make sense to you?

[unidentified]: Her grandmother was a twin.

S: She had a twin sister.

M: Okay. That makes sense, because I am seeing these two roses together. I am also getting a “6” connection – either a connection to June or the sixth of the month?

S: No. . . No.
This was the interesting part, the strong beginning. The rest, imo, just looks like classic cold reading....

So...you knew the woman's name (including that her middle initial was "R", but you did not know her personally or anything about her). You saw the rose motif jewelry and correctly inferred that her middle name was Rose and it was her grandmother's name (I guess because it would be an unusual name for someone of her generation, or her parents'). Pretty Sherlock Holmes-ian, imo, NZA. I'm impressed.

Taking that, you then began with an elderly lady and an "image" of roses and threw it out to the crowd to, I guess, make sure she really -could- relate to it as a name.


The "Gemini" bit was taken directly from a JE reading on this very board -- one of Renata's, I think. It was just lucky that she was a twin.
Yes. A very good demonstration of "luck" at work looking evidential. Having -this- grandmother have a twin looked much more evidential than if she or the woman or the dad had just been a Gemini...

You also correctly got "father's side" (a 50/50 chance, but still...)...

All this was very good...but after that, if you'll forgive me for saying it, everything else looks like pure cold reading. So its worth repeating that the impressive hit was based on prior knowledge--and up close observation of her jewelry--conditions that are sometimes present for professionals, too, but often aren't,

And...I'm curious about a couple of things....First, you seem well prepared so I'm wondering what was your back-up plan if there hadn't been a "name/jewelry" connection to work with?

Also...Did your friends introduce you as a real medium...an entertainer...or....?

Did you try any other readings? And what did you say afterwards about how you got the "Rose...grandma...etc"?

What did "Jan" think of your demo before and after the explanation? Any other interesting reactions from guests, hosts, etc.? Did you feel bad doing it? Or was it okay because it was a party...Halloween...some "willing suspension of disbelief"....etc.?

[Iamme]

Hi Ersby--- I think for me, the difference between a cold reader and a 100% authentic psychic-medium would be that if the cold reader could only make hits out of general fit-all statements like, "Who had the cake? Why am I seeing cake?" Where a real psychic medium might say, "Why am I seeing a lump on the third rib?" And the sitter goes, "My departed had a cancerous tumor removed from the third rib!"

Now, if the psychic-medium just so happened to be a real psychic medium, but could bring up no more unusual/fit the sitter/deceased type hits...then I would say that it is a pity that this supposed real psychic medium can't do any better than a cold reader. And there would be no reason or proof to continue to believe in that person.

What really adds to the power of a supposed authentic psychic medium is ...how many unusual type hits that seem to apply to either the sitter in some direct way, or the departed. The more the number of these hits, the more odds-against it is that the person is JUST a cold reader. We all know there are coincidenses...but if a reading is chuck full of what I would feel are unusual hits that don't seem to fit possibly the bulk of the population...then my interest is going to hold and I am at LEAST going to say, "What is going ON here?!"

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Clancie

This was the interesting part, the strong beginning. The rest, imo, just looks like classic cold reading....

I agree - I went into it with between half a dozen and a dozen guesses that were taken and modified either from a book on cold reading or from the transcript of of of the purported psychics here on the JREF board.

I had statements about the job; expected changes; "boxes" meaning a move; one or two "month/date" guesses (May/5; June/6); as well as a few others prepared.

I was really hoping someone had a birth stone -- something that does not show up on transcripts, but something that would go far in allowing a 'significant' month hit. Say the person had a small, emerald ring and my general 'June' guess had been modified to 'Is there a birthday in May? Is your birthday in May?'

My one miss then becomes a decent hit and the transcript would give us no clues.

Oh, and if we open up the door for internet hot reading, 10 minutes of searching though easily found (and free) sources (afterwards) gave me: father's name and description; county of birth; name of highschool; name and approximate age of sister; job.

Add that into the reading and it really -would- become interesting.


So...you knew the woman's name (including that her middle initial was "R", but you did not know her personally or anything about her). You saw the rose motif jewelry and correctly inferred that her middle name was Rose and it was her grandmother's name (I guess because it would be an unusual name for someone of her generation, or her parents'). Pretty Sherlock Holmes-ian, imo, NZA. I'm impressed.

Taking that, you then began with an elderly lady and an "image" of roses and threw it out to the crowd to, I guess, make sure she really -could- relate to it as a name.

Thanks for the somplement, but I was keying in on the jewelry for birthdate info, but washed out. Birthstones are not as common for the younger set, in my limited experience. My mom, for example, had one ring given to her by us that had a birthstone for her and both kids (we were pretty small). If she had been in the audience for a psychic with THAT? Yeowch.

Anyway, the reason that I started with "roses" was that I wanted to avoid coming out with something that looked like a complete "hot" read. If I began that specific, I was concerned that everyone would immediately believe that I was "too good to be true" -- but I was hoping to give her the specific after she identified herself. She beat me to the punch by offering the 'name' connection right off.


Yes. A very good demonstration of "luck" at work looking evidential. Having -this- grandmother have a twin looked much more evidential than if she or the woman or the dad had just been a Gemini...

You also correctly got "father's side" (a 50/50 chance, but still...)...


Yep: Father, sister, younger sister all essentially guesswork.


All this was very good...but after that, if you'll forgive me for saying it, everything else looks like pure cold reading. So its worth repeating that the impressive hit was based on prior knowledge--and up close observation of her jewelry--conditions that are sometimes present for professionals, too, but often aren't,

Nothing to forgive, it was pure cold reading, pure and simple. From my perspective, even the intial guesses on 'Rose' fall into the cold reading camp -- observation of the age, demeanor, clothing, and jewelry of the sitter has to be taken into account. That is the one true weakness of written transcripts.

Of course, the 'Gemini' thing and 'June/6' guesses were taken straight from JE transcripts, too.


And...I'm curious about a couple of things....First, you seem well prepared so I'm wondering what was your back-up plan if there hadn't been a "name/jewelry" connection to work with?

Also...Did your friends introduce you as a real medium...an entertainer...or....?


I had a few other openings and things that I was looking for -- unfortunately the number of people who finally attended the party were pretty small because of some scheduling problems, so some of my preparation was wasted.

Everyone at this party was expected to do something entertainment-wise. I did a psychic reading. There was never any attempt to claim it as real - it was kept light. The girl, in fact, kept laughing towards the end and was not giving information; she just would say "yeah" and then cover her mouth and laugh like she couldn't believe it.

Did you try any other readings? And what did you say afterwards about how you got the "Rose...grandma...etc"?


I did a few "throw-away" guesses with two of the other people that I had worked up -- fair success, but all general. I didn't have enough prep work ready for more than 1-2 readings; I'm too inexperienced to make a good showing.

I went over what I had done and how afterwards. "Jan" said she thought it was an accurate reading beforehand; one other person described it as "creepy." Under these circumstances -- presented purely for fun and immediately disclaimed -- I did not feel bad doing it.

N/A

[renata]

Originally posted by renata


Brilliant!!! Very well done, NoZed!! I wish more people would have posted on your reading. Very, very impressive.

I have some questions for you- when you said you were looking for Gemini, were you going for a sister commection, or a birthday connection? Why did you say two roses? Were you doubling the guess as I suspected, or were you going for soulmate connection? How responsive was the sitter? Did you get a lot of information from her? The Rose and the twin are exactly the examples of hits that looked really impressive but had you been wrong could have been smoothed over. It is clear to me that a professional medium would have noticed the rose motif on a bracelet, and might have known the middle initial as well, if it was a private reading, and thus would have taken the same route. Even the June miss you tried to save rather well, passing it on to the girl's grandmother. Are you sure you are not psychic after all? :D



How soon they forget....

NoZed...just because you are now a famous psychic (granted, a step higher on the credibility scale from your current occupation) does not mean you can just forget your fans! I was your sig first! And my questions go unanswered. And yes, I know I made that dig before, but it is still a good one, so I will keep using it :)


Congrats to Garrette for getting all the results right :) No reward from me though, I know what you want ;)

Ersby, the reading you posted was very good. How come you did not post it in this thread? Was it because it was familiar? Was it a voice reading or a text reading?

I do not think this thread deserves to sink, yet, particularly NoZed's reading. More comments on it? NoZed, do you need any sycophants swearing they knew you when your psychic abilities were just developing, by any chance? Anyone helping you with a TV deal? JE's ratings are plummeting, a Texas psychic might be the next big thing.

[Garrette]

Renata:

Congrats to Garrette for getting all the results right No reward from me though, I know what you want

Buffy the Vampire Slayer seasons 4 through 7 on DVD? You refuse me that one simple pleasure? Evil, evil woman...

On a much less important note, I agree with Renata that this thread should not die.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Garrette


Buffy the Vampire Slayer seasons 4 through 7 on DVD? You refuse me that one simple pleasure? Evil, evil woman...

On a much less important note, I agree with Renata that this thread should not die.

Don't worry. If it does die we can still talk to it. Just send any medium a few bucks.;)

[Clancie]

NoZed Avenger,

Thanks for your answers to my questions about your reading. The role of luck in cold reading (in lieu of birthstone, the "rose" thing could have easily been a miss, but wasn't) is quite intriguing. (Just fyi, for anyone who hasn't seen a medium...you are advised to dress down and to leave jewelry at home as much as possible...Your "bracelet hit" shows that is better advice than I realized)....

On the flip side, I still wear a ring on my wedding finger, although I'm no longer married. Two mediums I've seen in person (Brian Hurst is one who comes to mind; Robert Brown is another) didn't pay any attention to it. That surprised me, as that seemed to offer a cold reader a good piece of information to build on.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by renata

How soon they forget....

NoZed...just because you are now a famous psychic (granted, a step higher on the credibility scale from your current occupation) does not mean you can just forget your fans! I was your sig first! And my questions go unanswered. And yes, I know I made that dig before, but it is still a good one, so I will keep using it :)



When will you skeptics quit hounding me with all these questions?! I have already demonstrated my powers; my accuracy is undisputed.

Well, okay -- lets take a look:

Brilliant!!! Very well done, NoZed!! I wish more people would have posted on your reading. Very, very impressive.

That deserved to be quoted again, though I have no room left in my sig.


I have some questions for you- when you said you were looking for Gemini, were you going for a sister commection, or a birthday connection? Why did you say two roses? Were you doubling the guess as I suspected, or were you going for soulmate connection?

I decided on "Gemini" as one of my guesses before ever getting to the event. When I saw that I could use "Rose" the middle name and "Rose" for the grandmother, its use became obvious: it was the perfect "safety net" if the Gemini didn't get a direct hit.

In other words, if the Gemini guess did not generate anything new, I could easily fall back on the two roses being for the grandmother and sitter -- as you and viodx both caught. Luckily, the guess was dead on, and I did not have to do any retrofitting to make the gemini guess work. A sister for the grandmother would have probably done, as would any twin anywhere. I was not really going for a birth date -- if the twin guess failed, I would have fallen back immediately to the "Rose" name connection.


How responsive was the sitter? Did you get a lot of information from her?

No, though I think in a different venue I easily could have. She answered "yes" or "yeah" a great deal, but offered very little in the way of new information. I probably could have coaxed more out of her, but was not actively trying to do that -- I was very passive on that score, just taking what she gave me without any pressure. At the end, she was just laughing a lot on every "revelation" (i.e., question), as she admitted that it had been very accurate, in her mind.


The Rose and the twin are exactly the examples of hits that looked really impressive but had you been wrong could have been smoothed over. It is clear to me that a professional medium would have noticed the rose motif on a bracelet, and might have known the middle initial as well, if it was a private reading, and thus would have taken the same route. Even the June miss you tried to save rather well, passing it on to the girl's grandmother. Are you sure you are not psychic after all?

/psychic voice

I am only using talents and gifts that we all share, to one degree or another. I sense that you have the same talent that I do, but it has not yet fully developed. Are you an intuitive person? I thought so.

And remember, I -did- know about your accident as a child involving water.



NoZed, do you need any sycophants swearing they knew you when your psychic abilities were just developing, by any chance? Anyone helping you with a TV deal? JE's ratings are plummeting, a Texas psychic might be the next big thing. [/B]

I make it a rule to never turn down sychophants.

N/A

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Clancie
NoZed Avenger,

Thanks for your answers to my questions about your reading. The role of luck in cold reading (in lieu of birthstone, the "rose" thing could have easily been a miss, but wasn't) is quite intriguing. (Just fyi, for anyone who hasn't seen a medium...you are advised to dress down and to leave jewelry at home as much as possible...Your "bracelet hit" shows that is better advice than I realized)....

Likewise, someone might take along a six pointed star or cross -- should they be agnostic, for example -- and see what that generates.

You are correct: luck certainly plays a role. Taking one transcript by itself is always dangerous for that exact reason, IMO.


On the flip side, I still wear a ring on my wedding finger, although I'm no longer married. Two mediums I've seen in person (Brian Hurst is one who comes to mind; Robert Brown is another) didn't pay any attention to it. That surprised me, as that seemed to offer a cold reader a good piece of information to build on.

Perhaps, but (without having much experience) I would be (looking at it for the moment as a cold reader) hesitant to draw many conclusions from the presence of the ring. Almost certainly, you are married or were married -- but I would have questions: Is the husband alive still? Are you still together?

Without more information, making a guess in these waters might be too dangerous. Someone with more experience than I might be willing to hazard a guess.

Now a tan line where a wedding ring -used- to be -- that I might be willing to risk a few guesses on.

N/A

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger

Now a tan line where a wedding ring -used- to be -- that I might be willing to risk a few guesses on.

The absence of a ring on a woman might be a more telling clue.....

Oh Uncle Fred is asking if you are planning to get married soon....

[Loki]

NoZed Avenger,

The thing that stands out the most for me in your reading is that you've produced one of those "clearly not cold-reading" moments. The "Rose/middle name/twins" is all accurate, and doesn't flow from "lead in" questions. It certainly doesn't look like cold reading - and it isn't! You had a little "hot" info, and a lucky guess, and produced a strong hit. I think it's a clear example of how very little prior info is needed to produce some very strong connections.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Loki
NoZed Avenger,

The thing that stands out the most for me in your reading is that you've produced one of those "clearly not cold-reading" moments. The "Rose/middle name/twins" is all accurate, and doesn't flow from "lead in" questions. It certainly doesn't look like cold reading - and it isn't!

Strictly speaking, it is not cold reading, but I tend to lump any/all methods of performing a reading by a non-psychic as under the general term "cold reading."

Partial or imperfect information can lead to a nice "hit" if you are willing to take a few chances. Even then, if you know how smooth over a "miss," you are not taking that big a risk -- you can broaden the scope a bit, change the focus, emphasize a different portion of the statement, or simply insist that you are right (among other methods).

It was definitely interesting to do a reading as an exercise, but I don't think I could do it very often. To carry this sort of thing off properly, I'd want to study the census information (NAtional and by region) back for the last 100 years or so on names, societal trends (marriage, divorce rates, children out of wedlock, etc.), sizes of families, religions, plus a host of other information. It would be very time intensive to actually try to become truly -good-at it, as opposed to lucky.

[Clancie]

Posted by Loki

The thing that stands out the most for me in your reading is that you've produced one of those "clearly not cold-reading" moments. The "Rose/middle name/twins" is all accurate, and doesn't flow from "lead in" questions. It certainly doesn't look like cold reading - and it isn't! You had a little "hot" info, and a lucky guess, and produced a strong hit. I think it's a clear example of how very little prior info is needed to produce some very strong connections.
Loki, NZA....

Personally, I consider the "Gemini" hit very typical of cold reading. (And considerably less likely to miss than what a medium said to me the other day, "You're a Gemini?")

Getting a hit with "twins" for the grandmother was a great stroke of luck, but I don't see how saying "Gemini" was anything other than cold reading....
Posted by No Zed Avenger

Strictly speaking, it is not cold reading, but I tend to lump any/all methods of performing a reading by a non-psychic as under the general term "cold reading."
Well, I have to disagree with lumping them together. I think its very important to distinguish between cold and hot reading...

[Loki]

Clancie,

I consider the "Gemini" hit very typical of cold reading.
I understand what you're saying - it's a typical ambiguous symbol to play.

But I meant it in the context of the given reading...
M: Okay. Let me start out by saying that I have no real control over the impressions I get. Sometimes I feel things strongly, but sometimes- sometimes not as well. I’m . . I’m getting though a strong impression of an older lady, and I’m seeing a strong picture of roses. The roses are very strong, and I’m getting a definite feel that there is a strong connection to someone here. Is that making sense to anyone?

S: [Raised hand] My grandmother was named Rose.

M: Okay. Okay. Now you’re- ? [question]

S: Jan [changed].

M: Okay. But I am getting a very strong impression that you are connected to this energy – more than just your grandmother.

[pause]

M: Were you named after her, in fact?

S: [laughing] Yes, I was.

M: Middle name?

S: Yes.

M: Okay, because I’m seeing the connection there. I’m also seeing two roses together, two of them . . .and I’m seeing like- I’m seeing a picture of the symbol for Gemini, like there are twins involved. Does that make sense to you?

[unidentified]: Her grandmother was a twin.

S: She had a twin sister.

M: Okay. That makes sense, because I am seeing these two roses together.
Note that NoZed has been running wioth "roses" (plural) right from the start. In this context, Gemini is coming *after* the fact that he's introduced the multiple roses, as a possible explanation. The fact that it hits heavily on twins is pure luck (we all agree), but as you often say when looked at in terms of the validation of the customer it's an exact hit, without ambiguity. I guess it's just the way that "gemini" flows out of the original statements that makes it "feel" less like cold-reading.

[renata]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


When will you skeptics quit hounding me with all these questions?! I have already demonstrated my powers; my accuracy is undisputed.

Yes, yes, Mr. Psychic. It is obvious you have psychics even you are not aware of.


That deserved to be quoted again, though I have no room left in my sig.


With all those compliments your sig will be longer than headscratchers...



I decided on "Gemini" as one of my guesses before ever getting to the event. When I saw that I could use "Rose" the middle name and "Rose" for the grandmother, its use became obvious: it was the perfect "safety net" if the Gemini didn't get a direct hit.


Interesting...a Gemini as a sign would be a miss for me, but as a twin would be a hit. Interesting...
Of course you took Gemini from JE's transcript, so we would only assume JE was cold reading with it as well :)


In other words, if the Gemini guess did not generate anything new, I could easily fall back on the two roses being for the grandmother and sitter -- as you and viodx both caught. Luckily, the guess was dead on, and I did not have to do any retrofitting to make the gemini guess work. A sister for the grandmother would have probably done, as would any twin anywhere. I was not really going for a birth date -- if the twin guess failed, I would have fallen back immediately to the "Rose" name connection.


Once again, we see the flexibility of the technique. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. When I see hits like that, I frequently think "what if". Indeed I also think that with misses, - they are sometimes more instructive than the hits! :)




No, though I think in a different venue I easily could have. She answered "yes" or "yeah" a great deal, but offered very little in the way of new information. I probably could have coaxed more out of her, but was not actively trying to do that -- I was very passive on that score, just taking what she gave me without any pressure. At the end, she was just laughing a lot on every "revelation" (i.e., question), as she admitted that it had been very accurate, in her mind.


Did you let her believe you were a real medium, or did she know this was a joke all along? I think it is a good idea you did not coax more out, it might have been unethical.


/psychic voice

I am only using talents and gifts that we all share, to one degree or another. I sense that you have the same talent that I do, but it has not yet fully developed. Are you an intuitive person? I thought so.


A hit! Actually, legends of psychic women runs in my family....yes, indeed if family tradition holds, I too, am supposed to be psychic. Yup. My greatgrandmother was supposed to be rather famous in that regard, as was my grandmother, and my aunt. Anyway, by complicated laws of succession I am designated psychic ability inheritor. Really. Please don't laugh. To their credit, they never took money or stuff like that. The legends have various potions and healing properties and intuition and precognitive dreams and such. There were also apparently several instances of various bad things happening in the family and the women having dreams at that time and writing letters about it to the family members in question. All that is shrouded in requisite mumbo jumbo, and impossible to verify, and in the age of telephone difficult to replicate :). In other words, yours truly ain't a psychic yet. Of course, I wonder how many families have exactly that type of legend :) With Eastern European Jews it is either psychics or horse thieves.


And remember, I -did- know about your accident as a child involving water.


Not to mention my family history! :) You named the three countries we went through...pretty nifty.


I make it a rule to never turn down sychophants.

N/A

Ok, let me just get my chain saw started. Oh, sychophants? I thought you said psychopaths. Darn!

I can only assume that someone who does this on a daily basis for years, studies demographics, sometimes knows names of people in advance, and has a large pool of readings to choose from, will be more proficient than you at it. And yet, I have to say this was a reading that was rather good, certainly better than many medium transcripts I read. As to people bringing jewelry or other mementos- while I understand why they should not do that, it makes sense to me why they would. I have a ring and a watch from two people who died, who were dear to me. If I believed in mediumship, and wanted to contact them, I might take them with me, to feel I am establishing a connection. Similarly, I might take a picture, or another symbol of a lost loved one. Few people are sophisticated and calculating in knowing what to take and what not to take to a medium. I think most people just desperately want to connect.

[voidx]

Posted by NoZed Avenger
In other words, if the Gemini guess did not generate anything new, I could easily fall back on the two roses being for the grandmother and sitter -- as you and viodx both caught. Luckily, the guess was dead on, and I did not have to do any retrofitting to make the gemini guess work. A sister for the grandmother would have probably done, as would any twin anywhere. I was not really going for a birth date -- if the twin guess failed, I would have fallen back immediately to the "Rose" name connection.
This is pretty important. We've had many examples of mediumship transcripts where we thought the medium was leaving themselves open to fall back on something. And this is a good example of that, since we know for certain that you indeed did plan to fall back on it if it didn't connect, and that you planned on that contingency. The fact that you were able to do a decent job of it with little experience is pretty telling in my books. When overall we rated your reading as probably the best of all the ones in this thread, even though we thought they were all pretty clear cases of cold reading, its impressive that you beat out some readings down by "real" mediums.

[Ersby]

A briefer than brief post while I put together something more substantial.

Renata said:


Ersby, the reading [the psychic dice one, I assume] you posted was very good. How come you did not post it in this thread? Was it because it was familiar? Was it a voice reading or a text reading?


I’d posted this reading before on JREF. And beside, the psychic dice is too easy to spot: it can only ask certain questions in a certain order. The one on this thread was done face to face. After twelve readings the psychic dice’s hit rate was fifty percent but often those hits were unrelated to each other. This is the only one in which the dice stayed on topic and, I feel, is about as good as it’s ever going to get.

[Ersby]

This is what can only be described as the biggest inter-forum cross-post evah!!!!

Actually, it's only half done, but I have little time these days, so I'll post it now and hope to add more later.

Recently, on tvtalkshows, an old thread (very old) was bumped up in which Neil’s old cold reading example was compared to a JE reading. It was interesting because some of the believers mused wisely on what a cold reader should or shouldn’t do. This was over a year ago when really there was only the one example of cold reading to look at. It’s instructive to see just how little some people knew, yet where perfectly happy to wax lyrical on the subject. One poster called Valyou (since vanished, sadly, since that means she cannot see how the argument has developed) seemed to find almost everything JE did as going against the protocol of a cold reader.

Why am I posting this? As a caution, or a lesson to demonstrate how far we’ve all come (both believers and sceptics, I hope) in our understanding of cold reading. That accurate guesses on names can happen. Guesses about the size of the family, jobs, health, childhood, and everyday trivia can be right without the need for after death communication.

When I first investigated cold reading, their was Ian Rowland’s site, a bunch of JREF posters saying they’d seen a cold reader be amazing (but not provide any details!) and that was it. Since then I’ve learnt cold reading and demonstrated (at least to myself) that the information brought through by major name psychics can be gained by simple guesswork and sleight-of-word.

Anyway, back to the wisdom of a believer on the mechanics of cold reading, circa one year ago. I'll give a brief discription of the position of the reading and then drop in the old comments (prefaced by ))) )

The thread is here: http://tvtalkshows.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=27301

JE starts with a guess to the audience, and then chooses one person.

))) JE narrowing down person he will read, not advisable for a cold reader

I had only one person to work with in all of my readings. It makes no difference to a cold reader. In fact, it’s kind of essential to narrow it down to one person, otherwise the reading is just some guy talking to several people at once.

JE then guesses about a street party. Our expert says:

))) Why narrow it to a party in the street, why not just a party? Not wise for a cold reader to be specific like that. (street parties are not common for me)

I’ve said this a number of times (but it never seems to sink in) being specific doesn’t hurt. Since you can always stretch it later. In this example JE does just that. He asks about a party in the street, but later accepts a memorial parade. Something in the street, but certainly not a party. So the “street” part has been stretched and the “party” part quietly dropped, or somehow changed to mean “a lot of people”. So JE wasn’t specific at all. But because he looked like he was, the image of After Death Communication is maintained.

))) Why fight with the sitter, a cold reader would just move on. Cold reading motto: find a hit and milk it.

For someone who knows nothing about cold reading, to give us a motto is a bit rich! Repeating guesses is a good technique. It reinforces the illusion that the medium is receiving information from another source, and not just making stuff up.

))) JE sees the image of Anthony come into his mind. Why Anthony? Why not John, Mark, Bill, George, Jerry, Jim, Jeff, Jose, Adolf, Julio, Perry?

“Anthony” because it’s easily stretched to include the common names “Tony” and “Andrew” and later if necessary “A-n” names. “T-o” names is a bit of a dead end.

))) Her deceased brother is named Anthony, coincidence?
))) Surprise, her deceased husband was called Ralph by some people. Just a lucky guess out of millions of names?
))) He was the one that said Ralph, and he didn't exactly throw out a bunch of easy names fishing for a hit. Cold readers would say "R" or maybe "RA" to expand their chances.

Three statements all together, musing on the impossibility of guessing names with any accuracy (which I demonstrated is possible with guesswork). But Crossing Over is edited. We don’t know how many guesses he throws out. During unedited material (LKL, seminars) he goes to great pains to tell people that he can’t guarantee who’ll come through. In other words: he can’t be accurate. He admits that.

The jibe about “R” or “RA” means nothing. JE frequently uses “J-o” as a guess, but apparently some people think he’s not a cold reader. Especially since JE later guesses a “V” name soon after. The believer’s response is…

))) For a cold reader, guessing V is a death sentence, stupid move.

?!!!

Suddenly what was a cold reading technique has become proof positive of mediumship! Actually, I’ve done a number of other readings over the internet, and in one I got almost everything wrong EXCEPT the guess about a “V” name. Hardly a death sentence.

))) Cold readers shouldn't argue.

Yes we should. Badgering people into accepting what we say is essential if we’re to get anywhere. If we just gave up after the first “no” it’d be pointless.

))) Why guess 7? Surely a good cold reader would have guessed 4,5,6 before 7.

This is probably true. But at the same time, at the most improbable, it requires the sitter to have four brothers or sisters. This is not common, but if it’s opened up, “the family” could mean anything. Depending on where you draw the line my family can go from three to eight quite easily.

...

As I said there's more, but this at least shows that some arguments can progress over time. Some of the declarations boldly made about "cold reading" simply wouldn't be entertained today. I hope not, anyway.

[UnTrickaBLe]

bump

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by renata

But this whole endeavor reminds me of a story by Asimov, about a paranormal event retelling. I will share it later, after the grand reveal by Ersby :D


Hey, come to think of it -- did this ever happen?

N/A


Come to think of a second item, why didn't I quote something better, like:
Brilliant!!! Very well done, NoZed!! I wish more people would have posted on your reading. Very, very impressive.