JFK Second Shooter Theory Debunked by Discovery Channel

[Reality Believer]

The Discovery Channel will air a program on Sunday that forensically examines the JFK assassination. Specifically they recreate the geometry of the shot and model JFK's head with some high tech goo that simulates a real skull. The program is to air on Sunday, Nov. 16th, but there are video clips and a summary at link below.

Basically, they say that the shot from the School Book Depository recreates the actual wound to Kennedy's head, while the shot from the grassy knoll does not.

Guess we can put this one to bed huh!? :) :boxedin:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/13/jfk-forensics-tech.html

[boloboffin]

We keep putting it to bed, but it keeps getting up wanting a glass of water.

[JoeyDonuts]

This would be more believable were the Discovery Channel not simply another arm of the NWO propaganda machine. After all, the Mythbusters weren't able to bisect an SUV with 1000 pounds of thermite. Besides, everybody knows the Vatican/CIA/Opus Dei/Pat Robertson/Reptilians killed Kennedy with a DEW from outer space.

[PhantomWolf]

We keep putting it to bed, but it keeps getting up wanting a glass of water.

Darn you JoeyDonuts :a2: You beat me to nomiate this! :p

[Ranb]

I watched a show that nearly duplicated the so-called magic bullet trajectory. They had human torso shaped gelatin blocks with bones inserted for ribs and wrists. The blocks were positioned the same as JFK and Connelly were in the Limo, with Connelly inboard and low.

Using a 6.5 mm Carcano from a raised position duplicating the shooter's nest in the TSBD, a marksman shot the rear block (JFK) in the back. The bullet was shown on high speed cameras to go through JFK, yaw, exit sideways, penetrate Connelly's simulated chest, then go through the simulated wrist and bounce off of the simulated thigh. The people conducting the test decided that the bullet did not penetrate the simulated thigh due to breaking two ribs instead of just one in the simulated torso. Excellent show.

Ranb

[firecoins]

We keep putting it to bed, but it keeps getting up wanting a glass of water.
they have a medication for that. CTists need their prostate examined.

[ElMondoHummus]

The special managed to get a mention in MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705829/

[dudalb]

We keep putting it to bed, but it keeps getting up wanting a glass of water.


Maybe it's time for a wooden stake and some Garlic. That seems to be about the only way to kill the "Second Gunman"theory.
The problem with JFK assisnation theories is they have been along so long theylook more "respectable" then other CTs. I know people who laugh at UFO theorists and consider 9/11 Truthers to be nutjobs but who heavily buy into the JFK theories and consider Oliver Stone's "JFK" to be gospel truth.

[PhantomWolf]

I notice that no one has commented. So I will. :)

It was quite well done. I doubt that the JFK CTs will care, but they pretty comprehensively showed that the lethal shot had to have been by Oswell and that any shooter on the Grassy knoll either never existed or missed because if they had hit the would would have been in the front of the head (or there would have been no head) and Jackie would have been dead too.

[GodisEnergy]

didnt howard hunt confess to his involvement in the killing ?

[The Professor]

The Presidents "Misplaced" brain would have solved all of these complaints ... Yet the Brain is gone. The one piece of evidence that could have revealed and put to rest all of these mysteries. Imagine that! The ONE PIECE of evidence that could have "Fingered" someone magically Disappears. Was anyone fired for "Losing" the brain? Was anyoneone repremanded? Was anyone even ASKED about it?

Why?

It is also obvious that the photos of Oswald in the back yard were faked.

Why?

[JoeyDonuts]

It is also obvious that the photos of Oswald in the back yard were faked.

Eh? How?

Snip from MuseumofHoaxes: (http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/photo_database/image/oswalds_backyard_photo/)

In 1978 the Select Committee on Assassination of the House of Representatives commissioned a panel of photographic experts to study the photo. Their examination included microscopic analysis of the photo, as well as photogrammetric comparison of Oswald's face to other photos of him (including two other photos taken in his backyard). No evidence of tampering was found. The mysterious line across Oswald's chin was determined to be a water spot.

Of course, if you really and truly believe this was a huge conspiracy then you'll probably just reject any sort of goverment inquiry as being "in on it" the way NIST was "in on" WTC7.

[JoeyDonuts]

Regarding the brain:

The brain (what remained of it), slides, X-rays, photographs, and
other medical materials were in the possession of the Kennedy family
after the autopsy. In 1968, congressional legislation mandated that
these materials be turned over to the National Archives; but the brain
and a few other items were not among the returned materials. It is pre-
sumed that Bobby Kennedy disposed of the brain to avoid it becoming
an object of public curiosity.

[lee5]

I watched a show that nearly duplicated the so-called magic bullet trajectory. They had human torso shaped gelatin blocks with bones inserted for ribs and wrists. The blocks were positioned the same as JFK and Connelly were in the Limo, with Connelly inboard and low.

Using a 6.5 mm Carcano from a raised position duplicating the shooter's nest in the TSBD, a marksman shot the rear block (JFK) in the back. The bullet was shown on high speed cameras to go through JFK, yaw, exit sideways, penetrate Connelly's simulated chest, then go through the simulated wrist and bounce off of the simulated thigh. The people conducting the test decided that the bullet did not penetrate the simulated thigh due to breaking two ribs instead of just one in the simulated torso. Excellent show.

Ranb

Got a link to this show? IS it online? Sounds interesting.

[pamelajfk]

The DC did not prove an SBT scenario in that show. And in the newest show they disproved the autopsy photos and xrays. Their Z313 fatal head shot blew away the top of the head. Do your realize the significance of that?

[Dave Rogers]

The DC did not prove an SBT scenario in that show. And in the newest show they disproved the autopsy photos and xrays. Their Z313 fatal head shot blew away the top of the head. Do your realize the significance of that?

Did you mean to post this in the "JFK Second Shooter Theory Debunked by Discovery Channel (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128804) " thread in the parent Conspiracy Theories forum? It would probably make more sense there. Ask a moderator and they may be able to move it for you.

Dave

[dtugg]

nevermind

[abenja1]

But of course we all know Rupert Murdoch owns the Discovery Channel. IT"S DOCUMENTED! :rolleyes:

[dudalb]

Joey Donuts, I LOVE your new Avatar being in the middle of Fallout 3.

[I Ratant]

The Presidents "Misplaced" brain would have solved all of these complaints ... Yet the Brain is gone. The one piece of evidence that could have revealed and put to rest all of these mysteries. Imagine that! The ONE PIECE of evidence that could have "Fingered" someone magically Disappears. Was anyone fired for "Losing" the brain? Was anyoneone repremanded? Was anyone even ASKED about it?

Why?

It is also obvious that the photos of Oswald in the back yard were faked.

Why?

You really haven't looked into this.
The brain was given to RFK. It is thought that he had it placed in the coffin prior to burial.
There was no mention of anything like a front-to-rear wound in it at the autopsy.
As for the backyard photos, the various loons who dispute them, even with access to the area, have never bothered to go there on the day those images were taken.... March 31, 13:15 CST and set up the scene.
I did that 14 years ago with AutoCAD, and got this oblique view of the scene.
HSCA's "expert" was equally befuddled, and totally screwed it up.
Wrong time of day for one.
I built a 1/35th scale model of the backyard (using a 1/35th scale toy soldier) and set it up to the HSCA "conclusion", and got a totally different image from any of the backyard photos.
Almost all CTwinkies will avoid doing any leg work, preferring to "reason" from their conclusion to the question, ignoring any information that doesn't fit, just as we see with the 9/11 crowd. JFK has attracted an equal number of hopelessly lost and viciously greedy "reasearchers" who follow any will-o-the-wisp that someone waves in front of them.

[I Ratant]

The DC did not prove an SBT scenario in that show. And in the newest show they disproved the autopsy photos and xrays. Their Z313 fatal head shot blew away the top of the head. Do your realize the significance of that?
.
The bullet on entering the -rear- of the head began to yaw. The bones in the head began to split open due to the expansion of the brain with the passage of the bullet. (JFK suffered from a disease which made his bones brittle.) The bullet came our of the head over the right eye, blowing out some of the skull bones and a lot of brain material.
The bullet continued on to impact the upper portion of the limosine windshield coaming, where it broke up.
A significant piece of skull from the occipital area can be observed spiraling up from the head. This piece when later found on the infield became the "Harper fragment", which was also given to RFK, who disposed of it.

[dudalb]

The most idiotic "Proof" that Oswald could not have done it is the "no way he could have gotten off all those shots with a Bolt Action Rifle" routine. Anybody who actually tried speed shooting with a Bolt Action rifle laughs at that one.

[PhantomWolf]

in the newest show they disproved the autopsy photos and xrays. Their Z313 fatal head shot blew away the top of the head. Do your realize the significance of that?

Actually their results were very like the autopsy photos and xrays except that there was no skin to hold the skull in place on thie dummy head, they simply had a skull and brain.

[pamelajfk]

The tech test blew a big hole in the findings of the WCR when the SN shot blew the top of the head off the dummy. How could anyone possibly believe the x-rays, autopsy photos and drawings are not faked after that?

[JoeyDonuts]

The tech test blew a big hole in the findings of the WCR when the SN shot blew the top of the head off the dummy. How could anyone possibly believe the x-rays, autopsy photos and drawings are not faked after that?

Easy.

...wait for it...

There. I believe the X-rays, autopsy photos, and drawings are not faked.

[WildCat]

I watched a show that nearly duplicated the so-called magic bullet trajectory. They had human torso shaped gelatin blocks with bones inserted for ribs and wrists. The blocks were positioned the same as JFK and Connelly were in the Limo, with Connelly inboard and low.

Using a 6.5 mm Carcano from a raised position duplicating the shooter's nest in the TSBD, a marksman shot the rear block (JFK) in the back. The bullet was shown on high speed cameras to go through JFK, yaw, exit sideways, penetrate Connelly's simulated chest, then go through the simulated wrist and bounce off of the simulated thigh. The people conducting the test decided that the bullet did not penetrate the simulated thigh due to breaking two ribs instead of just one in the simulated torso. Excellent show.

Ranb
I saw that, it was excellent. For the test they even obtained a box of cartridges from the same lot that Oswald's came from!

[PhantomWolf]

The tech test blew a big hole in the findings of the WCR when the SN shot blew the top of the head off the dummy. How could anyone possibly believe the x-rays, autopsy photos and drawings are not faked after that?

Did you even read the bit where I pointed out that the dummy didn't have skin to hold the skull parts in the head? Kennedy's skull was similarly shattered, and while some pieces escaped the skin, most were just shattered in the head and held in place by his scalp. Virtually the entire right side of his skull was shattered starting just behind and above the ear, exactly like the dummy's. The only major difference was that the dummy's skull wasn't covered and so the parts were able to escape easier.

[PhantomWolf]

This drawing (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/JFK_skull_trajectory.jpg) shows an almost identical result to the DC shot. Especially considering that the odds of hitting the exact spot Oswald did is pretty remote, even for the best shot on the planet (not that Oswald's shot was hard, just that he was aiming at the entire upper torso while to duplicate the shot you have to hit a target about 5mm in diameter).

[Drewbot]

Lame...

We all know it was really the Secret Service agent in the follow up car, accidentally discharging an AR15 which exploded upon hitting JFK's head. A jacketed bullet wouldn't do that kind of damage.

Does the show debunk that?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The Discovery Channel will air a program on Sunday that forensically examines the JFK assassination. Specifically they recreate the geometry of the shot and model JFK's head with some high tech goo that simulates a real skull. The program is to air on Sunday, Nov. 16th, but there are video clips and a summary at link below.

Basically, they say that the shot from the School Book Depository recreates the actual wound to Kennedy's head, while the shot from the grassy knoll does not.

Guess we can put this one to bed huh!? :) :boxedin:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/13/jfk-forensics-tech.html

This was put to bed 40 years ago. The nutjobs keep bringing it back up.

I'll have to look through the thread. I wonder if Rouser2 has shown back up?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The Presidents "Misplaced" brain would have solved all of these complaints ... Yet the Brain is gone. The one piece of evidence that could have revealed and put to rest all of these mysteries. Imagine that! The ONE PIECE of evidence that could have "Fingered" someone magically Disappears. Was anyone fired for "Losing" the brain? Was anyoneone repremanded? Was anyone even ASKED about it?

Why?

It is also obvious that the photos of Oswald in the back yard were faked.

Why?

Good one! A great parody of a conspiracy nut!

:dl:

[I Ratant]

Lame...

We all know it was really the Secret Service agent in the follow up car, accidentally discharging an AR15 which exploded upon hitting JFK's head. A jacketed bullet wouldn't do that kind of damage.

Does the show debunk that?
,
That was decided in the courts, with Howard Donohue losing the defamation suit to the survivors of the Secret Service agent accused of the act.
Consider this...
Had there been a AD from the following limosine, ALL the agents in that car would have piled on the guy with the gun!
This didn't occur.
I talked to Howard about this many years ago.

[EventHorizon]

This drawing (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/JFK_skull_trajectory.jpg) shows an almost identical result to the DC shot. Especially considering that the odds of hitting the exact spot Oswald did is pretty remote, even for the best shot on the planet (not that Oswald's shot was hard, just that he was aiming at the entire upper torso while to duplicate the shot you have to hit a target about 5mm in diameter).

I watched the show and when I saw it I immediately thought of that picture. The drawing is almost identical to what the bullet did to the simulated skull on that show.

[boloboffin]

See (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4490941)?

[Jontg]

I would actually agree that the photo of Oswald with the rifle is obviously fake; the shadows on his face are all wrong, and the face itself looks so plastered-on that I could probably make something better in photoshop. That, however, is pretty good evidence that the fake photo is not part of some vast conspiracy. Remember, JFK conspiracy fodder was a cottage industry even before the internet made it easy; there's a ton of phony stuff floating around out there that was just whipped up by some scam artist in his basement. I mean, look at it; the Russians did a better job of airbrushing Trotsky out of group photos. There's no way a professional made this.

[Drewbot]

,
That was decided in the courts, with Howard Donohue losing the defamation suit to the survivors of the Secret Service agent accused of the act.
Consider this...
Had there been a AD from the following limosine, ALL the agents in that car would have piled on the guy with the gun!
This didn't occur.
I talked to Howard about this many years ago.

Not true.
Mortal Error was published in 1992 in both hardback, paperback, and audiobook. In 1995, Hickey sued the publishers, Simon & Schuster and St. Martin's Press, over the claims made in the book, but the suit was dismissed in 1997 on the grounds that it had been filed too long after publication. In 1998, Hickey settled with the publishers of Mortal Error on undisclosed terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Donahue

[Thunder]

the 2nd shot, the one that hit JFK in the head, exploded out the front of his head. bullets that come from infront of you dont explode towards the direction the bullet came from.

all shots came from behind. Oswald was the shooter.

[ANTPogo]

I would actually agree that the photo of Oswald with the rifle is obviously fake; the shadows on his face are all wrong, and the face itself looks so plastered-on that I could probably make something better in photoshop.

If the photos are fake, someone apparently forgot to inform Oswald's wife Marina, who told the FBI and the Warren Commission that she took them herself (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/photos.txt).

(scroll down to section 352)

[Thunder]

yeah. never mind the fact that before Oswald left his wife that morning, he left a wad of cash and his wedding ring behind.

i wonder...why did he do dat?

:confused:

[PhantomWolf]

the 2nd shot, the one that hit JFK in the head, exploded out the front of his head. bullets that come from infront of you dont explode towards the direction the bullet came from.

all shots came from behind. Oswald was the shooter.

Don't you mean third? The first shot missed, the second hit Kennedy in the lower neck/upper back, passed through him exiting his throat, then struck Governor Connoly in the back, and passed through him into his wrist before being deflected off the wrist bone and down into his leg. The third shot hit Kennedy in the head.

[PhantomWolf]

yeah. never mind the fact that before Oswald left his wife that morning, he left a wad of cash and his wedding ring behind.

i wonder...why did he do dat?

:confused:

One has to wonder why he shot Officer Tippet and attempted to shot an officer during his arrest as well. The only thing that prevented a second officer being killed in the Theatre was that Oswald's gun jammed when he pulled the trigger. Why after shooting Tippet did he empty the gun and load if he wasn't expecting to have to use it again?

[Thunder]

what kind of innocent man...kills a Police Officer???

[tyr_13]

I've always wondered about the people who say that Oswald wasn't a good enough shot to pull this off, always citing his only obtaining a basic marksman certification. The shot wasn't that hard.

He also missed once. Three shots, one miss. That is an accuracy rating of 66%. This is far lower than his test scores. Obviously an off day.

[pamelajfk]

This show was supposed to take aim at the heart of the CT community and leave them squealing like stuck pigs, according to those close to ground zero on this program. However, the intent seems to have backfired, as the CTs are coming together in their own rather independent ways to assess the failed claims of the show and provide analysis.

[pamelajfk]

LHO was never seen with the M/C after his return to Dallas. No test was ever done on the M/C to see if it had been fired that day, or at all. In order to understand the conspiracy to assassinate JFK we need to find out also why Lee Oswald was not allowed to live to stand trial.

[PhantomWolf]

need to find out also why Lee Oswald was not allowed to live to stand trial.

Because Jack Ruby decided to take the law into his own hands and get revenge for his president and in his words, to spare Jackie the need of a trial. Jack Ruby would have been the worse person to have as an assassin because everyone that knew him agreed he couldn't have kept his mouth shut about anything. That and he was standing in line at the Post Office when Oswald was supposed to be moved, and only the fact that Oswald himself delayed the moving by requesting to get changed was Ruby able to get there in time to see him. Unless you believe that Ruby was psychic and knew Oswald would be late, or that Oswald deliberately delayed to give his assassin time to get into position, you're chasing a lost cause. BTW Ruby also left his dog in the car, obviously expecting to return shortly after leaving. If he had been meant to, or even planned to shot Oswald, why leave his beloved pet locked in his car?

[dtugg]

This show was supposed to take aim at the heart of the CT community and leave them squealing like stuck pigs, according to those close to ground zero on this program. However, the intent seems to have backfired, as the CTs are coming together in their own rather independent ways to assess the failed claims of the show and provide analysis.

Of course true believers will always believe in the CT no matter what and come up with idiotic analysis "proving" that all evidence saying otherwise is wrong. It is just like morons who believe that 9/11 was an inside job, or that the Apollo missions were faked, or even that that the Earth is flat.

[PhantomWolf]

Of course true believers will always believe in the CT no matter what and come up with idiotic analysis "proving" that all evidence saying otherwise is wrong. It is just like morons who believe that 9/11 was an inside job, or that the Apollo missions were faked, or even that that the Earth is flat.

Because they "know" the truth, then anything that disagrees with them they must either they write it off as a hit piece by those in the conspriacy or claim that the evidence was planted by the conspriacy. It's the perfect catch all. Anything that proves you wrong was created by the conspriacy to further the cover up and thus further proves that there is indeed a cover up and conspriacy.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Because Jack Ruby decided to take the law into his own hands and get revenge for his president and in his words, to spare Jackie the need of a trial. Jack Ruby would have been the worse person to have as an assassin because everyone that knew him agreed he couldn't have kept his mouth shut about anything. That and he was standing in line at the Post Office when Oswald was supposed to be moved, and only the fact that Oswald himself delayed the moving by requesting to get changed was Ruby able to get there in time to see him. Unless you believe that Ruby was psychic and knew Oswald would be late, or that Oswald deliberately delayed to give his assassin time to get into position, you're chasing a lost cause. BTW Ruby also left his dog in the car, obviously expecting to return shortly after leaving. If he had been meant to, or even planned to shot Oswald, why leave his beloved pet locked in his car?

Wow, I used to hate Jack Ruby. After reading this, he's my new Great American Hero. Thanks for pointing out what a great guy he was. (I love my pet too).

[skepticalcriticalguy]

what kind of innocent man...kills a Police Officer???

One who knows he's been set up and about to go down?

[dtugg]

So he kills a cop in front of a bunch of witnesses to make it 100% sure that he will go to prison?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

the second hit Kennedy in the lower neck/upper back, passed through him exiting his throat, then struck Governor Connoly in the back, and passed through him into his wrist before being deflected off the wrist bone and down into his leg.

Or, maybe it did not.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

So he kills a cop in front of a bunch of witnesses to make it 100% sure that he will go to prison?

Desperate people do desparate things?

[dtugg]

Or, maybe it did not.

Actually, it has been proven that it did. I've seen one show that recreated the shot just about perfectly. There is another one that recreated the whole scene in a computer. They traced the line of the bullet wounds back to the window on the sixth floor of the school book depository.

[PhantomWolf]

Wow, I used to hate Jack Ruby. After reading this, he's my new Great American Hero. Thanks for pointing out what a great guy he was. (I love my pet too).

Loving your pet doesn't make you a great guy, but it does make it very unlikely that you would deliberately place them in hards way. He didn't have to take his dog with him that day, and if he knew that he was going to go and shoot Oswald in front of police officers then he'd also know that the likelihood was that he'd be arrested at least and the dog, locked in the car would, suffer. Jack was a lot of things, but those that knew him also say he loved the dog more than that.

Jack was a little man that wanted to be a big shot. He was always shooting off his mouth trying to impress people. He certainly wasn't a hero. In that place called reality, the irony is that Oswald, a loser that thought killing someone important would finally make him the star he'd always wanted to be, got killed by another loser that wanted to be a big star.

[PhantomWolf]

Or, maybe it did not.

The evidence is pretty conclusive that it did. The way Kennedy and Connely were sitting the bullet that hit Connely in the back and exited from his chest had to have passed through Kennedy first and a straight line back through the 5 wounds (Kennedy's 2 and Connely's 3) leads right back to the 6th floor of the School Book Despository. The lead in the bullet recovered from Connely's stretcher was compared with lead fragments removed from Connely's wrist and was shown to match showing that the bullet that was found was the same bullet that hit Connely in the wrist. Again the only way that bullet could have hit his wrist based on his position in the Zebruder film when he was hit, was to have come out of his chest. The bullet also entered Connely sideways leaving an oval hole in his back, something that would most likely mean it had hit something previous to hitting Connely. That thing had to be Kennedy, unless you are planning to claim that Kennedy shot Connely.

[PhantomWolf]

Desperate people do desparate things?

Considering that at the time he shot Tippet he had no way of knowing who the police were looking for, why would he be desparate unless he believed they were after him? And if he believed they were after him, why would he think that unless he had something to do with the murder?

[JoeyDonuts]

Hey...was this part of one of their series? I'm trying to find it on XBOX marketplace and not having much luck. What was the name of it?

[dtugg]

JFK: Inside the Target Car

[JoeyDonuts]

JFK: Inside the Target Car

Danke!

[JoeyDonuts]

Check this out:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13688

Not sure what to make of this.

[PhantomWolf]

The "EducationForum" is pretty much one of the hotbeds of JFK CTism

[JoeyDonuts]

I'll admit that I'm not big into looking at the JFK incident as it seems pretty clear-cut to me. Even as a teenager the first time I saw the Zapruder film I didn't think that he was shot from the side.

Anyway...any of their points have merit? Or at least point to murkiness in the Commission report?

[boloboffin]

It is my own little theory (no need to have you believe it or not) that Oswald reacted badly on leaning down and looking at Tippit in the squad car. Tippit was nicknamed "Jack" because he had a rather strong resemblance to the President. It must have been quite a nasty shock for Oswald to suddenly be looking into JFK's face again on a cop who'd just called him over.

And the conversation wouldn't have gone well after that.

[I Ratant]

After getting interested in this crap in the early '90s, and gathering a lot of the published information from official sources and unofficial. it became obvious that although the Warren Commission Report had problems, they did finger out who dun what to whom with what.
The overwhelming majority of the published literature is purely crap.
Ravings by deluded people, or those that know their audience is incapable of rational thinking.
Exactly like the same ol' same ol' of the 9/11 CTwinkies.
Loonies feeding the delusions of other loonies, and the crafty making hay of the deluded's fear of everything!

[The Professor]

The photo's are fake and that is a HUGE problem. Almost any photoshop novice can see the screw ups on the photo's. The question is WHY? and Who?

It had to have been done before the shooting. His wife could NOT have stood still enough to take exactly the same photo ... No one can! It's not possible. Her story has changed more than once for whatever reasons.

There were a minimum of three shooters. On the Knoll, in the depository, on the roof of the building directly behind the car and possibly in the storm drain. The idea that the driver was a backup might show why the Presidents wife tried to get AWAY from the Driver. You would think that she would naturally hide below if someone were shooting from above.

[ktesibios]

The photo's are fake and that is a HUGE problem. Almost any photoshop novice can see the screw ups on the photo's. The question is WHY? and Who?

A "Photoshop novice"=/= qualified questioned documents examiner. What are your qualifications in the field of image analysis and photogrammetry? This is an area where amateurs constantly make monkeys of themselves, as demonstrated by virtually everything Jack White has ever claimed about JFK and Apollo.


It had to have been done before the shooting. His wife could NOT have stood still enough to take exactly the same photo ... No one can! It's not possible.

In point of fact, the photos were not exactly the same. Her position varied enough between taking successive pictures to permit them to be viewed as stereo pairs in order to detect signs of forgery.

As for her tesstimony about exactly when the pictures were taken goes, the pictures themselves contain enough internal evidence, e.g., the newspaper Oswald is holding, to constrain the range of possible dates pretty tightly. That sort of evidence always trumps fallible human memories.

This (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/infojfk/jfk6/hscbkyd.htm) may be of interest. It explains in good detail the measures the House Select Committee on Assassinations took to test the authenticity of the photos- measures which led them to the conclusion:

The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials.

[PhantomWolf]

The photo's are fake and that is a HUGE problem. Almost any photoshop novice can see the screw ups on the photo's. The question is WHY? and Who?

It had to have been done before the shooting. His wife could NOT have stood still enough to take exactly the same photo ... No one can! It's not possible. Her story has changed more than once for whatever reasons.

Sounds like you have been reading too much Jack White. The guy has no clue and was shredded by the House Committee (http://www.clavius.org/white-test.html). Heck the guy doesn't even know one side of the LM from the other.

There were a minimum of three shooters. On the Knoll, in the depository, on the roof of the building directly behind the car and possibly in the storm drain. The idea that the driver was a backup might show why the Presidents wife tried to get AWAY from the Driver. You would think that she would naturally hide below if someone were shooting from above.

I suggest you stop watching the X-Files, I mean come on, the storm drain? Apart from the fact that anyone in the strom drain wouldn't have had a line of sight, they would have had to have been a 2 foot tall contortionist to get there. As for the Knoll. If Kennedy had been shot from there the bullet would have done damage to the left side of his head, there wasn't any, and likely have hit Jackie, it didn't. And before you start waving the "Badgeman" photo about cliaming it's the shooter, again, the guy that populised that is an idiot with ZERO photo analysis expertise, his name is Jack White.

[I Ratant]

Jack White was active on the Compuserve "Conspiracy forum" 15 years ago.
One of his funniest was "analyzing" this frame of the Zapruder film, using ALL his photogrammetric skills.
He lives in Dallas, and took a photo from where Zapruder was standing, and compared it to Z-frame 304, looking at the size of the woman walking across the infield behind Mary Moorman.
He concluded she had to be 8 feet tall!
Doing a little real photogrammetry on the image, I fingered she was just about 5 feet tall.
Deany Richards of JFK Lancer confirmed this, as she had spoken -to- that woman, who was 4'11".
Jack was certainly a prolific PITA in the "conspiracy" world.
His "analysis" of the Backyard photos was equally odd!
Some time later that same day....
I found my image from 1999... Gary Mack (also on CIS at the time) who was running the 6th Depository Museum at the time gave me some of the information...

[dtugg]

How does one go about faking a photo in 1963 in such a way that it wouldn't be noticed except for geniuses like Jack White?

[PhantomWolf]

How does one go about faking a photo in 1963 in such a way that it wouldn't be noticed except for geniuses like Jack White?

Generally you just take a picture. ;)

[EventHorizon]

Check this out:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13688

Not sure what to make of this.

The problem with them is it's hard to argue with the "all the evidence is faked....except the stuff that helps our theories" argument.

[PhantomWolf]

The problem with them is it's hard to argue with the "all the evidence is faked....except the stuff that helps our theories" argument.

Yeah, if the DC programme did get one thing wrong it was that no one disputes the authenticity of the Zeburder Film. A lot of CT's claim it is fake, or has been altered. I guess it was done by the same MiBs that managed to sneak fake planes into the handycam footage of innocent NYer's on 9/11.

[A W Smith]

Check this out:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13688

Not sure what to make of this.
I know what to make of it. JFK conspiracy theorists have forum posters as incredibly stupid as stundie too.

Bill, might I suggest a possible reason why the Sixth Floor Museum and thus Mr. Mack would seem to have a vested interest in the "Oswald-did-it" scenario. There are tourist dollars at stake here. If the TSBD was NOT the source of the shots that killed Kennedy and wounded Connally, then the value of the building as a tourist attraction is considerably less.

Mack didn't support the official version of events until he was hired by the Sixth Floor Museum.

In my book, that says it all.

[CurtC]

Yeah, if the DC programme did get one thing wrong it was that no one disputes the authenticity of the Zeburder Film. A lot of CT's claim it is fake, or has been altered.

As far as I'm aware, there's only one, and his name is... (drum roll please)... Jim Fetzer. Yes, the same guy who buys the craziest of the crazy 9/11 conspiracy theories.

[PhantomWolf]

As far as I'm aware, there's only one, and his name is... (drum roll please)... Jim Fetzer. Yes, the same guy who buys the craziest of the crazy 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Jim might have started it, but others have run with it. I have a feeling Jake White claims it was altered, but I could be wrong so don't quite me on it unless you spot a more secure quote from him.

[Dave Rogers]

I have a feeling Jake White claims it was altered, but I could be wrong so don't quite me on it unless you spot a more secure quote from him.

Has anyone ever come across a photograph Jack White doesn't think was altered?

Dave

[CurtC]

I have a feeling Jake White claims it was altered, but I could be wrong so don't quite me on it unless you spot a more secure quote from him.
You're right - Fetzer's book, The Great Zapruder Film Hoax (http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6jYkC&dq=fetzer+zapruder&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=r9mRIV21fA&sig=OEl3b6DlV-BjU4bfifK_EvJJwbY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result), is a compilation that includes two chapters by Jack White.

[GreNME]

I've always wondered about the people who say that Oswald wasn't a good enough shot to pull this off, always citing his only obtaining a basic marksman certification. The shot wasn't that hard.

He also missed once. Three shots, one miss. That is an accuracy rating of 66%. This is far lower than his test scores. Obviously an off day.

This always gets me confused, especially if I happen to hear someone talk about it here in Dallas (where I live). I've gone to Dealy Plaza and looked at the location-- even I could have done that, and I'm not a fan of guns (though I'm not a bad shot and I'm not afraid of them). There's a bit of difficulty in the positioning, but of the three shots the last one was the lethal one, which took two adjustments by the shooter in previous shots. Because of the location of the second shot there may have been a possible death before they got him to a hospital, but it was clear from the footage that the shooter could have mistaken the second shot for a total miss instead of the hit he got. I've seen the footage over and over, and even though there was a time when I believed the conspiracy theory on the subject I was always curious as to how someone gets the impression that there are shots coming from multiple trajectories when it's pretty obvious the shots were coming from behind and to the right.

I had family down to visit last week and my mom wanted to visit Dealy Plaza. While down there I encountered a few CT folk and had a brief exchange with them. Two gems from the encounter:
One fellow wanted to show me the obvious escape path of the guy who was supposedly shooting from the gutter where there's a manhole next to the road. He walked me to the south end of the grassy knoll and showed me a grated stormdrain that he claimed the hidden shooter used to escape undetected. I pointed out that the drain was too heavy for one man to lift, to which he replied with the bait-and-switch of "obviously it's been rebuilt since that date to cover it up." When pressed for proof of schematics or city blueprints (or some verifiable documentation) to show how the drain was different, I was dismissed and told I should buy one of the CT "newpapers" that the homeless/vagrant/other people at the location were selling for $5 a pop.
The previous fellow's mother told me that I should be more open minded about things I observe in the world very early on in the conversation. After some disagreement on a few data points she exasperatedly told me, point blank, that there was nothing I or anyone could say that would ever convince her that Oswald acted alone or that there was not a conspiracy. When I asked her whether she realized that she'd expressed contradictory philosophies to me-- to keep an open mind, yet unwilling to consider even the probability that she could be wrong-- there was some hemming and hawing and appeals to pseudo-authorities (there was supposedly a CT "expert" there that day who regularly visited the site and "taught" people about the conspiracy). My only regret is that I couldn't get those quotes recorded either with audio or video to display the cognitive dissonance of the thinking behind such conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theorists should normally find me a pretty easy sell compared to most skeptical thinkers. I have a fairly deep-seated distrust of authority and I don't trust government authorities by default. In the past I've entertained both the JFK and the 9/11 conspiracies as very likely possibilities, and only have the contradicting opinions I have today because I've critically examined not only the data involved in the cases but also my own instances of cognitive dissonance impeding my ability to assess things as objectively as possible (though I don't feel that all cognitive dissonance does so, nor is it always a negative thing). Yet conspiracy theory advocates usually tend to get annoyed or frustrated with me when asked to defend their arguments with critical analysis. Almost always the conversations come down to the assumed conspiracy theorist assuming that they're smarter than me for being able to understand-- which I have to admit is somewhat deceiving because I don't claim to be smarter than most people, not because I don't think I have a high aptitude (my IQ is in the upper 140's or lower 150's, but that's not meaningful to me) but because I prefer to try to recognize the intellectual strengths of everyone I talk to in some degree or fashion. What they see as naive inquisitiveness from me is usually me trying my best to offer as much benefit of the doubt as possible.

[Crazytimes]

LHO was never seen with the M/C after his return to Dallas. No test was ever done on the M/C to see if it had been fired that day, or at all. In order to understand the conspiracy to assassinate JFK we need to find out also why Lee Oswald was not allowed to live to stand trial.


No test was available at that time.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid1.htm

[Crazytimes]

I watched a show that nearly duplicated the so-called magic bullet trajectory. They had human torso shaped gelatin blocks with bones inserted for ribs and wrists. The blocks were positioned the same as JFK and Connelly were in the Limo, with Connelly inboard and low.

Using a 6.5 mm Carcano from a raised position duplicating the shooter's nest in the TSBD, a marksman shot the rear block (JFK) in the back. The bullet was shown on high speed cameras to go through JFK, yaw, exit sideways, penetrate Connelly's simulated chest, then go through the simulated wrist and bounce off of the simulated thigh. The people conducting the test decided that the bullet did not penetrate the simulated thigh due to breaking two ribs instead of just one in the simulated torso. Excellent show.

Ranb

Any more info on this show ? I would really like to know more about it.

[dtugg]

Any more info on this show ? I would really like to know more about it.

That would be Discovery Channel's "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet." I don't think that one is on the Internet anywhere.

Another good one is "The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy." In this one, they trace the the bullet wounds back to the sixth floor window of the school book depository with a computer simulation. It is available on Google Video. (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ABC%27s%20The%20Kennedy%20Assassinat ion%3A%20Beyond%20Conspiracy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv#q=The%20Kennedy%20Assassination%3A%20Beyond %20Conspiracy&emb=0) The part with the simulation starts around 7:30.

[Crazytimes]

That would be Discovery Channel's "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet." I don't think that one is on the Internet anywhere.

Another good one is "The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy." In this one, they trace the the bullet wounds back to the sixth floor window of the school book depository with a computer simulation. It is available on Google Video. (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ABC%27s%20The%20Kennedy%20Assassinat ion%3A%20Beyond%20Conspiracy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv#q=The%20Kennedy%20Assassination%3A%20Beyond %20Conspiracy&emb=0) The part with the simulation starts around 7:30.

Thanks. I saw The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy and it was great. I will have to have my DVR search for the first.

[Seanette]

Frankly, some of the conspiracy theories I've heard about the Kennedy shooting make a lot less sense than what composer Stephen Sondheim came up with in his musical "Assassins". That one has Presidential assassins (or would-be assassins) from John Wilkes Booth clear through to John Hinckley showing up in the Depository to encourage Oswald. ;)

[Alex Libman]

Great, wheew. Now that this pointless distraction is over with, can we please get back to serous discussion of Oswald and Ruby's government ties?

(And I'm not a JFK Truther - not my generation, not my responsibility.)

[JoeyDonuts]

:DFrankly, some of the conspiracy theories I've heard about the Kennedy shooting make a lot less sense than what composer Stephen Sondheim came up with in his musical "Assassins". That one has Presidential assassins (or would-be assassins) from John Wilkes Booth clear through to John Hinckley showing up in the Depository to encourage Oswald. ;)

Wow! Was it presented like a blue transparent Jedi ghost kind of thing? :D

[Seanette]

Nope. :D

[CORed]

I have to admit that the Ruby's killing of Oswald is the one thing that makes me think that maybe, just maybe, there was a conspiracy. I have no doubt that Oswald shot Kennedy, and very little doubt that he was the only shooter, but I'm not completely convinced that he acted alone. The "lone nut" being killed by another "lone nut" is certainly far from impossible, but it does make me go Hmmm!

[PhantomWolf]

The biggest issue with the Jack Ruby was hired to shut Oswald up, was that if it was true Ruby was both the world's most incompetent assassin, and the luckiest.

The reason for this is that at the published time of Oswald's transfer, Ruby was standing in line at the Post Office waiting to mail a letter for one of his dancers. If it wasn't for Oswald delaying things so he could change clothing, Ruby would have missed the transfer and the second shooting never would have occurred. Some have claimed that Ruby went to the Police Station first and learned of the delay, then left and returned, but this would be stupid because he would have had no way of knowing either exactly how long he would be away for, or how long the delay in transfer would be. The only possible way for Oswald's murder to have been pre-planned was if Ruby had been a psychic!