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saizai
17th November 2008, 11:49 PM
(Crossposted (http://saizai.livejournal.com/901852.html) from my blog.)

First, I'd like to give one of the most blatant examples I know of.

I'm not interested in discussing drug policy here; this is simply an illustrative example.


Definitions per the Controlled Substances Act:

Schedule 1: high abuse potential, no medical use, and no safe use under medical supervision
Schedule 2: high abuse potential, has medical use, abuse may cause severe psych/physical dependence
Schedule 3: less abuse potential than s.2, has medical use, abuse may cause moderate/low physical dependence or high psych dependence
Schedule 4: low abuse potential vs s.3, accepted medical use, abuse may cause limited physical/psych dependence
Schedule 5: low abuse potential vs s.4, accepted medical use, abuse may cause limited physical/psych dependence vs s.4

The legislature has found that GHB (which is dual-listed as S.3 under the trademark Xyrem O.o), pot, various opiates, MDMA, psilocybin, LSD, etc etc., have "no medical use" and no possibility of safe use even under medical supervision - despite studies on all of them demonstrating medical efficacy and safe usability.

However, certain other drugs are not scheduled:
* nicotine: at least moderate abuse potential, minimal medical use, abuse can cause severe dependence with mild to severe adverse health consequences (cancer, lung problems) and mild risk to others' health (2nd hand cancer / lung problems) - Schedule 2? 3?
* alcohol: high abuse potential (AA anyone?), minimal medical use (efficacy of small amounts is still under debate), abuse can cause moderate to severe dependence with mild to severe adverse health consequences (Korsakoff's Syndrome) and significant to severe risk to others' health (drunk driving) - Schedule 2? 3?


My point here is not to make any argument about drug policy per se, but rather that the current legislative "findings" violate the specifications listed in the law - the specified class members neither fit the class as described, nor are a complete set of the things that fit the class as described.

However, the justification of the law is based on the specifications, not the findings as such.

Therefore I propose the following (very rough) draft of a meta-law.


Every legislative finding that declares the members of a class must be based, where possible, on the preponderance of currently available scientific evidence (PCASE).

If any finding is not based on PCASE, or if available evidence has significantly changed since the last review of the finding, then any citizen may challenge the finding to be revised in accordance with PCASE.

The legislature's findings shall be interpreted by the courts as being an initial decision based on the legislature's review of PCASE, rather than an element of the law per se. If any part of the law is a mere list of members of a class that is otherwise explicitly defined, or whose underlying composition can be understood based on the legislative intent, then that list shall be interpreted as a finding in this sense, and the definition of the class as law.

Wherever possible, the courts shall interpret findings in the light of the classifications specifically expressed in the laws, and when reviewing a challenge to a finding, shall ensure that the revised finding constitues a sensible category.

Wherever possible, courts shall combine ongoing cases that deal with review of the same finding, using the combined evidence cited in all such combined cases.

[insert something here to prevent "special casing" things as a way to get around proper classification, e.g. "things that are foo, plus bar because we feel like it" should be interpreted as nothing more than "things that are foo" ]

[insert something here to prevent legislative prevention of scientific investigation that might disprove findings, unless there is PCASE to believe that even attempting such investigation would be very likely to result in severe public harm, and that this requirement should be interpreted with a strong bias towards freedom of science]To finish the example above, in order to not have alcohol and tobacco classified as Schedule 2-3 substances, the legislature would need to change the law so as to allow for certain classes of drugs to be used recreationally. This wouldn't necessarily require reclassification from Schedule 2-3, so much as an additional classification (perhaps on the basis of the expected damage and likelihood of dependency, psychological benefits, etc).

To not have a bunch of drugs *de*classified, again, the schedule definitions would need to be changed - for example, to explicitly outlaw hallucinogenic substances (even when medical efficacy, safety of use, and low abuse potential have been established).

Which way the legislature in their infinite wisdom choose to rule is up to them; they would simply be required to be consistent about it, and in accord with what the law says it does.


The draft obviously needs a lot of work, but I would hope that the final form would be less than a page in length; the intent is straightforward enough, though it is indeed quite broad.

It'd need to be passed as a proposition no doubt, since no legislature would ever restrict themselves to this sort of truthfulness.

In any case, the intent is basically: the legislature has the power and responsibility to make laws, decide what classes of things are treated in what manner, etc, and this proposition does not challenge that.

However, we should not have cases where non-evidence-based findings are used to create laws that do not, in fact, do what they say they do. If you want to make something legal or illegal (or whatever), say so explicitly, and do so in a way that deals with conceptual categories of things.


I'd appreciate suggestions from people who understand and agree with my intent for how to better construct this, and reasoned arguments from people who don't as to why it's a bad idea (or what I should explain to make it more understandable).

Please stay away from the issue of drug policy per se, as that is completely tangential to the topic at hand.

Beerina
18th November 2008, 05:33 PM
Fact: Most people will live longer lives kept in jail and fed healthy food and forced to exercise.

Conclusion: Therefore we should do this.




Freedom is supposed to be in there somewhere... And this is not tangential to the topic at hand.

Tmy
18th November 2008, 06:49 PM
Alcohol is a food. And its mighty tastey. You can use it and not get all wasted.

THe sole purpose of smoking weed is to get f'd up.

saizai
18th November 2008, 09:11 PM
Tmy - That is not in fact the *sole* purpose. It can be used as a food, as part of religious practices (like Catholics with wine), for alleviation of pain and muscle spasms, and for general social lubrication.

Alcohol is something where many (most?) people who use it (in America at least) use it specifically to get censored up. Both can be used as a sort of social food.

And that's before even getting into the relative numbers of manslaughters or other injuries to others in which alcohol vs THC is involved. (Hint: Reefer Madness (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdo cid%3D-6696582420128930236&ei=SaAjSayDK5KasAPA7vT-Dg&usg=AFQjCNHFfNwxWfzKkeRIt5ULCRvQ5ZoHWQ&sig2=EhqCnKFKvupKv6fcCLu79g) is not factual.)

In any case, it is completely tangential. If you want to discuss the relative merits of the (il)legalization of different drugs, start a new thread.


Beerina - How does that relate to fact-based laws as a general principle?

Kopji
18th November 2008, 09:37 PM
If the problem is that the legislature is acting irrationally, I'm a little pessimistic about them passing a law requiring that they only act rationally.

tomwaits
18th November 2008, 09:41 PM
If you want to discuss the relative merits of the (il)legalization of different drugs, start a new thread.


Than why did you bring it up?

However, certain other drugs are not scheduled:
* nicotine: at least moderate abuse potential, minimal medical use, abuse can cause severe dependence with mild to severe adverse health consequences (cancer, lung problems) and mild risk to others' health (2nd hand cancer / lung problems) - Schedule 2? 3?
* alcohol: high abuse potential (AA anyone?), minimal medical use (efficacy of small amounts is still under debate), abuse can cause moderate to severe dependence with mild to severe adverse health consequences (Korsakoff's Syndrome) and significant to severe risk to others' health (drunk driving) - Schedule 2? 3?

UserGoogol
18th November 2008, 10:21 PM
Alcohol is a food. And its mighty tastey. You can use it and not get all wasted.

THe sole purpose of smoking weed is to get f'd up.

I don't really think there's an ethically meaningful distinction between something being delicious and something being intoxicating. You consume something for the sake of experiencing pleasure. Intoxication (be it due to alcohol or THC or whatever) has other side effects, of course, and some of these are good or bad in their own way, but I don't see how you can make a distinction. Recreational consumption of substances is recreational consumption of substances.

(And as saizai notes, people do occasionally eat marijuana, although it might not be as capable of standing on the merit of being food alone.)

saizai
18th November 2008, 11:07 PM
Than why did you bring it up?

As I said: to illustrate a higher-level point about legislative findings not matching truth.

If you want we can discuss this with some other example, like what kinds of lethal force cause suffering (viz. death penalty), what districting plans have the correct proportions and sizes, etc.

The intent is about findings of "fact" matching up with actual facts. Drugs are only an example; get over it.

saizai
18th November 2008, 11:14 PM
If the problem is that the legislature is acting irrationally, I'm a little pessimistic about them passing a law requiring that they only act rationally.

They still have plenty of leeway for irrationality. This just attempts to curb one aspect of it.

Partially it is by encouraging them to start off rationally (i.e. using science-based findings), partially by allowing citizens to challenge them when they don't and have judges be the de facto enforcers of the current state of science.

Beerina
20th November 2008, 12:50 PM
Beerina - How does that relate to fact-based laws as a general principle?

Laws are almost always some idea "that sounds good", i.e. it works in most people's mental model of reality. But no testing is done before the fact.

And after the fact, it's almost impossible to reverse, barring complete disaster, and even then some (e.g. Detroit's city council over the last 40 years yet the philosophies are more entrenched with the voters than ever.)


They're akin to science experiments, with little more than an anecdote of a problem and few if any meaningful statistics about the severity and magnitude of it to kick off theorizing on how to "solve it".

But the theories include legal kickbacks to the scientists and the validity of the proposed theories is based on the popular vote.

And finally, there is little or no follow up after the experiment begins, unless the lab completely goes up in flames. And if the experiment fails, 99% of the time they keep running it anyway, forever.





Political Science -- The only science that finds it ethical to experiment on unwilling test subjects.

saizai
22nd November 2008, 02:00 PM
Please see this (excellent) thread for further discussion of drug classification: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=129226

quarky
22nd November 2008, 03:58 PM
It is criminal to exceed the speed limit. Car manufacturers should be liable. They sold me a car that can exceed the speed limit. In fact, it was speeding, luridly, in the well designed adds. They should pay my ticket.

(car stuff instead of drug stuff?)

I like what you're up to. But it could somewhat facistic to the religious types. They would have science shoved down their throats; their religious beliefs would be violated.
They wouldn't get in line easily...even though it would ultimately be in their self-intrest to have science based laws.

Some of the incongruous laws we have are almost fun...like smoking pot; or driving faster than the speed limit. You have a good chance of getting away with it, yet it gives cops something to do, and adds a little excitement to it.

I'd like to see cars that obeyed the laws. The tech isn't far off; sensors along roads and in cars; there would be no speeding. No speeding tickets; less cops needed.
The justice system would go broke.

saizai
22nd November 2008, 09:18 PM
It is criminal to exceed the speed limit. Car manufacturers should be liable. They sold me a car that can exceed the speed limit. In fact, it was speeding, luridly, in the well designed adds. They should pay my ticket.

How is this odd claim of liability relevant?

(BTW: knives, sticks, and stones can kill people. Killing is illegal. Are knife, stick, and stone manufacturers liable? [For Christians: ... and would that mean that you can sue Yahweh?])

I like what you're up to. But it could somewhat facistic to the religious types. They would have science shoved down their throats; their religious beliefs would be violated.If that claim is ever made in court, it is grounds for immediate voiding of the law in question. The government is not allowed to make findings based on religious beliefs.

Mind that this proposition only deals with legislative findings and quasi-findings. People are still free to believe whatever they like; but if it's relevant to law, and someone in government misclassifies something, then you get to sue to have it reclassified correctly.

Also mind that this has nothing to do with what *laws* are made per se. As I said, if they want to make hallucinogens illegal, that's fine. (I would prefer they not do so, as I don't believe it is justified, but that opinion is irrelevant.)

quarky
23rd November 2008, 04:46 PM
It was vaguely relevant because if law was science based, we wouldn't create technology that was designed to break laws.

(I didn't want to use the drug law analogy)

Can you use a different metaphor, regarding a current topic, to show how this change might manifest?

saizai
25th November 2008, 05:29 PM
Can you use a different metaphor, regarding a current topic, to show how this change might manifest?

1. FCC claims that buttocks are a "sexual or excretory organ" (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=860)
2. Recent evidence is claimed by some that the current lethal injection mixture causes suffering before death (thus might be 'cruel')
3. Suppose a redistricting commission creates a senatorial district that does not meet the requisite criteria
4. US has previously claimed that crypto is a "weapon", and thus export-restricted, but without 2nd amendment treatment
... etc

Make up some situation where the government claims A is a B, and therefore should be treated as a B, when it clearly isn't. That is what this is trying to combat, by giving citizens the right to contest it simply on the basis that it isn't a B. (Rather than how a B ought to be treated; that is a matter of law, not findings, and is not addressed by this at all.)

quixotecoyote
25th November 2008, 07:15 PM
So if I understand you correctly, you want to give all citizens standing to bring cases against the government when they feel the factual basis for legislation is erroneous?

saizai
25th November 2008, 08:50 PM
So if I understand you correctly, you want to give all citizens standing to bring cases against the government when they feel the factual basis for legislation is erroneous?

While I would like that also, this proposition is not about that. That would allow one to attack the law itself, on the basis that it was made based on false information. Much more sweeping a proposition, and much harder to do right.

This only allows standing to challenge findings, and specifically, improper categorization. It requires that cases be made jointly (as a class action, effectively) and establishes a scientific standard of evaluation (where relevant).

As I've said earlier, I see this as:
LAW: Fooers are subject to 1 yr in jail.
FINDING: Bar is a kind of foo. Arrest all barrers at once! [says the legislature / commission / governor / whoever]
PROBLEM 1: Science shows bar is not a kind of foo. [says the citizen]
PROBLEM 2: There's insufficient evidence that bar is a kind of foo, and I want to do research to find out whether it is in fact true. [says the citizen-researcher]

This does not even attempt to say that the law (as above) is improper. It only has to do with legislative findings.

Challenging laws, prima facie, is an established field and currently requires standing created by a demonstration of personal harm. I would like to see that standing broadened in that I believe pernicious, outdated, or factually unsound laws are, by their very existence, a harm to all – but this doesn't accomplish that aim.