Women and revealing clothing

[Thunder]

Ok...I know this is gonna be a touchy subject, but its something Ive been thinking about for a while...so here it is.

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.

[quixotecoyote]

Women do this?

[Thunder]

well..i do live in liberal NYC. maybe only new york women wear blouses that show cleavage and skirts that show their legs.

[quixotecoyote]

It kind of falls apart when you consider which women do what things under which circumstances.

Certainly there's a larger societal focus on the female body than the male one, but it doesn't play out quite like you describe.

[DanishDynamite]

Ok...I know this is gonna be a touchy subject, but its something Ive been thinking about for a while...so here it is.

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.Women wear these clothes because they want to attract males to their bodies.

Women want to be ********** and men want to **** them.

This is the basic nature of things.

Things get a bit more complicated after this point.

[Dunstan]

This thread is worthless without pictures.

[gumboot]

well..i do live in liberal NYC. maybe only new york women wear blouses that show cleavage and skirts that show their legs.


It's rather common here also. Sadly it seems equally popular amongst women who really shouldn't be trying to draw that much attention to their bodies.

*shudder*

Having said that, I know a lot of women who don't dress like that, and many of the ones that do, I don't hear complaining about being a sexual object.

So perhaps it's a case of some women complaining on behalf of another group of women, in which case the complainers should just mind their own business. If a woman wants to objectify herself that's her business and no other woman has a right to tell her otherwise.

As a male, I sometimes dress intentionally in a way that draws attention to positive aspects of my appearance. I do it, to put it crudely, so people will think "that guy's hot" when they look at me.

In my experience the only people who really kick up a fuss about people being objectified as sex symbols are people who wouldn't qualify as a sex symbol no matter what they wore.

[tyr_13]

You've never known any body builders have you? Men do indeed wear clothing to show off their bodies, it is just a smaller portion of men. Men also by very expensive clothing that, let's face it, isn't anything special apart from costing a lot.

And let's not get into the entire expensive car thing.

Cognitive desires, like wanting to be respected for one's mind, often loose out to social and societal norms, biological impulses (women actually dress 'sexier' when they are fertile according to at least one study if I remember correctly), and just fashion.

Hell, I wish men had more fashion choices. Not like I want to wear a dress, but some variety. Kimono? Those are comfy... Going way off topic...

[quixotecoyote]

You've never known any body builders have you? Men do indeed wear clothing to show off their bodies, it is just a smaller portion of men. Men also by very expensive clothing that, let's face it, isn't anything special apart from costing a lot.

And let's not get into the entire expensive car thing.

Cognitive desires, like wanting to be respected for one's mind, often loose out to social and societal norms, biological impulses (women actually dress 'sexier' when they are fertile according to at least one study if I remember correctly), and just fashion.

Hell, I wish men had more fashion choices. Not like I want to wear a dress, but some variety. Kimono? Those are comfy... Going way off topic...

I'll consider myself free of acting according to what other people think of me when I feel comfortable wearing my nice, warm, convienint cape with a light jacket instead of a bulky coat. So far I feel weird enough I don't do it often. Societal norms of the dress code.

[gumboot]

Basically, when it comes down to it, despite our sophisticated aesthetic appreciation and incredible technological advances, we're still just baboons trying to show off our red bottoms.

[Thunder]

interesting comments. thanks for not attacking me for speaking my mind about a touchy issue.

i will admit, when a woman at work wears a big sweater and baggy pants, i definately listen to her more then when if she wore a hot skirt and a low cut blouse. if women want to be respected more for their mind at the workplace, they should think about what kinda clothes will make men see them in which way.

[tyr_13]

I'll consider myself free of acting according to what other people think of me when I feel comfortable wearing my nice, warm, convienint cape with a light jacket instead of a bulky coat. So far I feel weird enough I don't do it often. Societal norms of the dress code.

You know, I was thinking the same thing today as I was digging out and brushing off my car. Man I wish I had a nice cloak right now.

[Hokulele]

Meh. I think quite a bit of this is cultural. What would be considered formal dress for Polynesian royalty would get them arrested in parts of NYC.

(Anecdote time.) I like to surf, and really can't do so comfortably when dressed like a nun (nor, apparently, can any of the other women in the line-up). Between sets, the men and women out that day will sit and chat about just about anything including work and politics, and I have yet to see any of those women's comments taken less than seriously.

I admit, I wouldn't wear my bikini and board shorts in the board room, but it is funny how many of my clients I have met at the beach (some have known me from surfing longer than from work-related reasons), and they insist on asking serious questions. I just need to figure out how to bill for that...

[Dragoonster]

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

Maybe. Men's bodies tend to be more muscular, and this tends to show through whatever clothes we pick. Also men have penises, which are considerations (both for comfort and display) for what shorts or pants we buy. Our bodies simply have different parts we want to display, and/or we go about it in a different manner.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.

Some women do dress so that they look good to others, same as some men. Maybe most of both. Women have different assets to consider here though.

As for women who don't dress for others but still dress "provacatively", comfort could be a factor; a tight fit may feel better than loose, or an open shirt be a better temperature regular than a turtleneck or button-up top. Also, well, I know as a guy when wearing pants I have to shift my penis around a lot to be comfortable. Perhaps women get wedgies that tight fits avoid?

Women can also dress so that they find themselves sexy, without considering how others would view them. I like green and how my biceps look, so when checking a shirt out in a mirror I see how well it seems to fit my ideal. Sometimes without considering how it'll look to others.

Finally, women can be in relationships with guys/girls who like them to dress a certain way. Some of my g/fs have commented on my clothes and/or bought me new duds to wear because they like how they look, or how I look with them, or how we look together with them. Women may dress provacatively, but not for anyone else except their significant other.

Anyway, it's an interesting subject for discussion. I do tend to doubt women who wear very provacative clothing but insist that we males not view their bodies objectively. I mean, it's hard not to stare at exposed, voluminous breasts in a tight halter top. And yes women, we devise ways of staring without you seeing us. Reflective surfaces, wearing sunglasses, etc. At least I do. :)

[Meadmaker]

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects,


I don't know who you hang out with, but I never hear women complaining about this.


as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...


Oh...that. I think the key word here is not meat or body, but "just".

I think the typical woman wants to be valued for her body and mind. Come to think of it, that's how I want to be valued too. This would probably work better if I ate fewer potato chips.


Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

I don't think that's true. I think men wear what makes them lo ok their best. It's just that most men look better if their bodies aren't displayed in quite so much detail. I'm sure psychologists have studies that explain exactly why certain clothes look sexier on men, and the differences between men and women in this regard, but I don't think men conceal their bodies or avoid trying to look attractive.


How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?


I don't know how you would dress to bring attention to your mind.

[WildCat]

This thread is worthless without pictures.
Seconded. How are we supposed to decide without evidences?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ok...I know this is gonna be a touchy subject, but its something Ive been thinking about for a while...so here it is.

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.

Because women are messed up in the head.

:duck:

[Hokulele]

Because women are messed up in the head.


That is what enables us to deal with men. :cool:

[ConspiRaider]

<<---- I personally NEVER dress in anything provocative because it is demeaning, debasing and demoralizing when it doesn't work.

Somebody mentioned women's legs being revealed? Don't do that, basically have no defense against such. 'tisn't fair.

[Doubt]

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?



And how should a woman dress to bring attention to her mind?

There appears to be a bit of an unneeded dichotomy in the above quote. If a woman has a great mind and is attractive there is nothing stopping a reasonable person from appreciating both sets of features.

If somebody cannot see past one to find the other then the observer has no one to blame but themselves. They observer sells both the woman and themselves short in the process. If the observer cannot see both then they probably are going to miss something and get no more than they deserve for their lack of insight.

Of course, there are quite a few people who have one thing going for them and not the other. Failure to appreciate that which is not there is not the fault of the observer.

[tyr_13]

I'd love to be known for my mind and my body...

Actually I'd love to be known for being the first Emperor of Earth, and the thirteenth of Mars. Can't always get what you want.

[Whiplash]

I have a feeling these sentiments will not be welcome, but it's been my experience over the last 20 years or working and social events.

Women dress sexy or provactive in order to look good an be noticed. I'm sure that much is obvious. But it is funny when they then yell at someone for learing at them, because they are purposely trying to be noticed. You can't walk around in a tiny tube top and very tiny shorts that are halfway off and not expect some men to look. My opinion is that they simply don't like who notices alot of the time. They want it both ways. They want to look good to attract the men they are interested in, but anyone else better not even dare to look.

I suspect this won't be a welcome idea though because it kind of fees into the idea that someone who dresses sexy is setting themselves up for rape. I do not think that at all. It's an entirely different thing to look upon a woman than it is to forcibly attack and rape them. I would never excuse a rapist under any circumstances. But if a woman dresses provacatively, I don't think they have much right to complain if some guy is staring for a short time.

[MattusMaximus]

I work with many very beautiful and very intelligent women - we are all teachers in the same science department. Some of them dress in a manner that, how shall I say, definitely attracts the male eye, and I often find myself looking and enjoying the view. I feel no shame for it, especially since many of them know that I look.

I also respect these same women because they're damned smart and amazing teachers. It's the best of both worlds, they are smart and sexy - nothing like having a stimulating intellectual conversation with someone who you'd also like to sleep with, yowza! :D

The great thing is that I've got the same thing with my wife - smart and sexy :) :) :)

ETA: The whole "enjoying the view" thing gets quite a bit more uncomfortable when you realize you might be checking out a student. With girls that are about 17 or 18 it is sometimes very hard to tell the difference between them and younger female teachers - urgh :boggled:

[Madalch]

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

I know you didn't want insults, but your premise is stupid.

The less revealing the women dress (on average) in a society, the more body shape the men will see under the dresses.

If women cover up their cleavage and wear long dresses to hide their legs, men will ask why, if they don't wanted to be treated as sexual objects, do they show off their necks and ankles in such a sexual fashion? And they'll mean it, too- they'll find the hidden glimpses of necks to be highly erotic, because that's as much as the culture allows them.

If you dress all the women up in burkas and veils, there will be women who allow bits of their hair to escape the veil, and there will be men who find this highly erotic (and who demand to know why they do this, if they don't wanted to be treated as sexual objects).

[gumboot]

One of the hottest women I have ever met in person was also one of the smartest women I ever met in person. But she turned out to be a complete ***** who left her boyfriend (my friend) in the lurch on the other side of the world.

Go figure.

[gumboot]

The less revealing the women dress (on average) in a society, the more body shape the men will see under the dresses.



That makes no sense whatsoever. If there was a society in which the women traditionally dressed up in a fetid elephant carcass, men would see nothing of the woman's body shape under the copious rolls of tough grey hide.

In contrast, in a society where women traditionally dress up in skin tight body suits, the men see plenty of body shape under the garment.

[DC]

Sadly it seems equally popular amongst women who really shouldn't be trying to draw that much attention to their bodies.

very true

[Richard Masters]

Ok...I know this is gonna be a touchy subject, but its something Ive been thinking about for a while...so here it is.

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.

While I agree with the point you are making, I think you are presenting a straw man, which happens to be a response to another straw man.

What I mean is, the way someone dresses is irrelevant to whether they are human. And the fact that men are attracted to women does not mean that men think of women as sexual objects.

So you may be, in effect, responding to a fallacious observation.

[Madalch]

That makes no sense whatsoever. If there was a society in which the women traditionally dressed up in a fetid elephant carcass, men would see nothing of the woman's body shape under the copious rolls of tough grey hide.

In contrast, in a society where women traditionally dress up in skin tight body suits, the men see plenty of body shape under the garment.

What I'm saying is, in cultures where women cover up, men look harder. In cultures where nudity is the norm, men don't gawk at every exposed nipple.

[TriangleMan]

If women cover up their cleavage and wear long dresses to hide their legs, men will ask why, if they don't wanted to be treated as sexual objects, do they show off their necks and ankles in such a sexual fashion? And they'll mean it, too- they'll find the hidden glimpses of necks to be highly erotic, because that's as much as the culture allows them.

If you dress all the women up in burkas and veils, there will be women who allow bits of their hair to escape the veil, and there will be men who find this highly erotic (and who demand to know why they do this, if they don't wanted to be treated as sexual objects).

As someone who currently lives in a country where many women are covered in abayas and veils I agree with this. Arguments about dress codes are commonly about him men's reactions to a woman revealing a particular body part/hair/curves etc. i.e. it is bad because you will attract the wrong type of attention by men, men won't treat you seriously etc. Yet as time goes on standards change, just look at Victorian-era prudishness. We would think it ridiculous today that it reflects badly on a woman because she's wearing Capri shorts, but in America a century ago it might've been a minor scandal.

Perhaps men should consider not blaming women for how men think of them when they wear revealing clothing.

[Boran]

I tend to agree with the concept that nothing short of a burka will satisfy most rabid men. If you look at history, any part that was revealed was considdered sexy. Ankles in the victorian age for instance.

So for men anything a good looking (this is subjective) woman wears is revealing, because it is in his nature to look for these things.

[El Greco]

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

As I'm sure others have already pointed out (I'm too lazy to read the whole thread but I will repeat it just in case nobody has said it so far), this is shifting the problem. Your problem is not the way women dress. The problem is 1) women who complain and 2) men who see them only as sexual objects.

BTW, we've had a few threads about stereotyping and it happens in a lot of other things as well. There are also people who adjust their appearance and behavior so that they can take advantage of stereotypes.

[gumboot]

What I'm saying is, in cultures where women cover up, men look harder. In cultures where nudity is the norm, men don't gawk at every exposed nipple.

Ah right. My apologies, I misunderstood. :)

[Francesca R]

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?False dilemma.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Some women knowingly dress in a sexually provocative way because they believe it will help them get what they want.

[Lothian]

False dilemma.Sorry dear, did you say something. I was distracted by your pits.

[Undesired Walrus]

i will admit, when a woman at work wears a big sweater and baggy pants, i definately listen to her more then when if she wore a hot skirt and a low cut blouse. if women want to be respected more for their mind at the workplace, they should think about what kinda clothes will make men see them in which way.

You are essentially saying that women should conform to a world in which men naturally lear at their bodies. If you forget what the woman is saying because you are fixated on her skirt or low cut blouse, that is your problem, not hers.

interesting comments. thanks for not attacking me for speaking my mind about a touchy issue.


No problem. Now, if you could show some respect for us by using some punctuation in your posts, I'm sure that would be appreciated.

[Ikarus]

I know you didn't want insults, but your premise is stupid.

The less revealing the women dress (on average) in a society, the more body shape the men will see under the dresses.

If women cover up their cleavage and wear long dresses to hide their legs, men will ask why, if they don't wanted to be treated as sexual objects, do they show off their necks and ankles in such a sexual fashion? And they'll mean it, too- they'll find the hidden glimpses of necks to be highly erotic, because that's as much as the culture allows them.

If you dress all the women up in burkas and veils, there will be women who allow bits of their hair to escape the veil, and there will be men who find this highly erotic (and who demand to know why they do this, if they don't wanted to be treated as sexual objects).


Was not sure what to think, until there was Madalch. Well spoken, sir.

Can we say then that the observed objectification of women is societal/cultural and that the fashion trends (and the amount of shape revealed) are unrelated to this?

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Can we say then that the observed objectification of women is societal/cultural and that the fashion trends (and the amount of shape revealed) are unrelated to this?

No, though it would be nice to believe young women wear clothes which are totally inappropriate for the weather because they want to.

[linusrichard]

There's no reason they shouldn't be able to have both. There's no reason that a smart girl dressed sexily can't have her mind appreciated and her body admired (in a non-creepy way, let's (futilely) hope) at the same time. The apparent fact that women so often can't get both should not be laid at the doorstep of the women themselves, but at the men - and, let's be honest, women - who are failing to keep the issues separate and give proper respect.

Beyond that, there are actual pressures for women to dress somewhat sexily in order to be successful. For example, women's suits very often have skirts at about knee length. There are even a few old fossils of judges left who won't let women attorneys in front of them wearing trousers! A knee-length skirt may not be super-sexy (or it may be, depending on your taste), but the point is, when these women sit down, they're showing off their legs. Also, professional women in skirts are practically required to shave their legs and wear some sort of hosiery - at the very least one or the other. Heels are also generally de rigeur still. So what is a woman to do who accepts the OP's premise, and feels that it's her responsibility to dress unflatteringly in order to be taken seriously (as opposed to the responsibility of the person with whom she's interacting to take her seriously despite her flattering attire), but is in a profession where she has to dress flatteringly in order to be taken seriously?

Our culture sets up these kinds of traps for women, and then complains whichever way they fail. How is this at all fair?

Personally, there is a sizable overlap between women I know who dress flatteringly and women I take seriously and respect for their minds. And there is no woman I know of whose mind I don't respect because of the way she dresses.

[aggle-rithm]

I remember a survey done some years back that revealed an interesting bias. Men ASSUME that because they find womens' provocative clothing arousing, that is why they dress that way. In fact, most women said they do it simply because they want to look good. The men are being somewhat egocentrical in assuming it's about them.

[Ivor the Engineer]

I remember a survey done some years back that revealed an interesting bias. Men ASSUME that because they find womens' provocative clothing arousing, that is why they dress that way. In fact, most women said they do it simply because they want to look good. The men are being somewhat egocentrical in assuming it's about them.

Women lie and use euphemisms.

[TragicMonkey]

Straight people are so funny.

I work with four hundred women. You think they don't check out my rear when I wear those flattering jeans? Women leer just as much as men, they're just not as careless about getting caught. They manage to make salacious speculation sound cute and endearing, whereas men saying the same things just sound perverted. That's cultural double-standards for you.

And only straight men would argue that the male body isn't beautiful. Not been to an art museum lately, eh? The ideal male body is beautiful, it's just that most specific examples don't live up to the ideal. Same for women, except they're better at the art of disguising their little imperfections.

[Edges]

There is a difference between "leering" and "looking". I don't mind men looking if I'm wearing a short skirt, although if I'm trying to talk to them and they aren't listening because they can't look and listen at the same time, I might get pissed. However, I do mind if a man (boy) asks me how much I'm charging because I'm wearing a short skirt (yes, this actually happened). I fail to see how it is my fault for wearing the short skirt.

When I get dressed, yes, I do take into account how I look. I like to match and not cringe when I look in a mirror. But the question is: why does that then mean that I give up the right to be taken seriously? The OP seems to say that I can't dress the way I want because someone will find it provocative, thus alleviating them of all responsibility to appreciate my mind.

As others have said, these "complaining women" who dress provocatively don't want you to ignore their bodies. They just don't want you ignore their mind or devalue them because of their body.

Here's another thing to think about: What do you consider provocative? Is there any chance that what you consider provocative isn't what I consider provocative? Is there any chance that a woman chooses to wear a particular outfit that others might consider provocative without that being the intended purpose? Ex. I have a sparkly gray shirt with a low neckline. I don't wear that shirt because it has a low neckline, I wear it because I think it's pretty.

[applecorped]

Insults can be saved.

For later hopefully? ;)

[ponderingturtle]

As people have said there are multiple parts to this.

One is that people like to look at people and parts of people that they find attractive. Men might be more common in taking this to the extent that it make them into rude obnoxious jerks, not being able to treat them as people what ever they are wearing.

As to what clothing is attractive that is both cultural and individual. People even in the same culture have different clothing that pushed their buttons, and it does not necessarily matter how revealing or concealing it is. Sure showing a lot of cleavage is likely to draw more attention than not, and maybe some men think it is acceptable to be jerks to women showing more skin, but I am sure women here have been wearing normal t-shirts and still had men talk to their chests.

Men do not need revealing clothing to stare and focus on what they like to look at. Women probably don't either but are better at hiding it most of the time.

[Psi Baba]

if women want to be respected more for their mind at the workplace, they should think about what kinda clothes will make men see them in which way.
See, the problem is that you are painting all women with the same brush. You're assigning one voice to a persona you call "women." Sure, some women dress the way you describe. Sure, some women complain about being viewed as sexual objects. How much overlap is there among these two groups? You seem to think they are one in the same. I doubt that. In fact, I would guess that there is very little overlap. You need to find out how many women who dress to highlight their physical assets actually complain about the response they receive.

Personally, I've always believed that most women dress to impress other women, anyway, not men.

[Shevek-72]

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?


Well, when I see such a woman I am glad

- that she values and enjoys the freedom of not being required to wear a burka
- that she provides me and the world with a pleasant view
- that I have the opportunity to have some nice thoughts that I'll keep to myself.

I don't see how that should keep me from also valuing her "mind" or intellect should the opportunity arise to get to know her better.
Would it not only be my own narrow-mindedness that would keep me from recognizing the brain that resides in that body?
There are already far too many people high on moralin. No need to join their ranks.

BTW. How does clothing look that brings attention to a woman's mind? A cap with an arrow pointing to the head? T-Shirt with math formula?
I've once been accused of staring at a woman's breasts just because I tried to decipher the text on her shirt. That would never have been a problem had that shirt been tighter.

[Terry]

i will admit, when a woman at work wears a big sweater and baggy pants, i definately listen to her more then when if she wore a hot skirt and a low cut blouse.

Explain to me again why that is the woman's fault and not yours?

[MattusMaximus]

I remember a survey done some years back that revealed an interesting bias. Men ASSUME that because they find womens' provocative clothing arousing, that is why they dress that way. In fact, most women said they do it simply because they want to look good. The men are being somewhat egocentrical in assuming it's about them.

I was just about to make this same point before I read your post. Could it be fellas, that some of the ladies just like to dress that way? I certainly know women who are like that.

[Darth Rotor]

parky

Eva is wearing a dress that fits her beautifully. Where can you find fault with this ensemble?

http://www.evagreenpicture.net/includes/random/Eva-Green-Front-Page-004.jpg

Or this one?

http://www.beautyden.com/celebrities/eva-green-bed4.shtml

DR

[MattusMaximus]

No fault there at all. She's gorgeous!

And she should be proud of her beauty :D

[Wildy]

No, though it would be nice to believe young women wear clothes which are totally inappropriate for the weather because they want to.

I have to find the article, but there was a problem where people, mainly women, were fainting on the trams because the heater was too high and that they are cramped in the CBD which makes it warmer. People, dressing for the weather (winter) weren't going to get out the summer clothes just for the trams.

The Transport Minister's response?

Basically that women should wear daisy dukes and tank tops, even though it was winter and that many of the women taking the tram were businesswomen who need to look professional, and that people in general find the winter weather to be cold so they rug up.

I thought it was just stupid that someone could suggest that.

[tyr_13]

I can't believe that no one has brought this up, but I have observed that women most often dress to impress other women. No, not in a sexual way dunderhead. Many women just don't care what men think that much. Let's face it, women can get attention from men pretty damn easily. That is why I hate it so much when women complain about all they have to do to 'look good' for men, and then complain that men don't notice. Grrrr

To start another personal rant, which is all we are doing anyway, I hate it when women don't dress for the weather and then turn up heaters. Suddenly I'm sweating and they are still cold. This happens in summer and winter. Why don't they just put on a sweater or light jacket? Once I get down to my shirt and shorts or pants, I can't strip any further without getting fired or looking like a shirtless dink. I mean, I'm a big, fat, hairy guy. I'm already wearing two coats.

And why do women get offended when you offer them your coat or hoodie? I'm hot, they're cold, put on the extra layer damnit!

[Lithrael]

On the other end of the spectrum, I do feel pretty offended by men who say or imply that I am lazy or 'wasting it' because I DON'T dress very attractively or wear makeup. I've run into several guys who think I intentionally dress frumpy in order to avoid being noticed. I'm just dressing comfortably/inexpensively. You really can't win.

[tyr_13]

No, idiots always win. Even when you are ten points ahead their inability to do math means they win again.

[Tailgater]

parky

Eva is wearing a dress that fits her beautifully. Where can you find fault with this ensemble?

http://www.evagreenpicture.net/includes/random/Eva-Green-Front-Page-004.jpg

Or this one?

http://www.beautyden.com/celebrities/eva-green-bed4.shtml

DR

Thank you Darth. Thank you very, very, very, very much.

[ConspiRaider]

I remember a survey done some years back that revealed an interesting bias. Men ASSUME that because they find womens' provocative clothing arousing, that is why they dress that way. In fact, most women said they do it simply because they want to look good. The men are being somewhat egocentrical in assuming it's about them.
I think it's less about "egocentrical" and more about the impossibility of - in this particular gamesmanship and gameswomanship - trying to figure out just exactly WHAT women are doing, when they're doing it. Because if you get married and discover that your wife is STILL dressing nicely, wearing the war paint, the hair deal, the nails thing, the perfumes and bath oils and whatnot: You certainly realize those actions are no longer aimed directly at you.

Women who are interested in men ABSOLUTELY dress, at times, provocatively to affect men, from a variety of strategies. To get picked up at a club. To make a certain man, or men, jealous. As a helpful convincer - even in a business environment - to acquire or achieve something (attractive women in sales well know that advantage). For that last one? Even an attractive woman who is a lesbian can employ such tactics in the business world. Women haven't much of a problem figuring men out in this regard. We hetero men-types are easy, very predictable, very consistent. We're as accurately readable as a well-wound wristwatch, in good repair.

[kerikiwi]

One of the hottest women I have ever met in person was also one of the smartest women I ever met in person. But she turned out to be a complete ***** who left her boyfriend (my friend) in the lurch on the other side of the world.

Go figure.

It's obvious: as you said, she was one of the smartest women you ever met!

[Mark6]

I remember a survey done some years back that revealed an interesting bias. Men ASSUME that because they find womens' provocative clothing arousing, that is why they dress that way. In fact, most women said they do it simply because they want to look good.

Well, what do they think causes men to be aroused? Any woman who wants to look good and NOT arouse men should move to San Francisco.

[Mark6]

I have to find the article, but there was a problem where people, mainly women, were fainting on the trams because the heater was too high and that they are cramped in the CBD which makes it warmer. People, dressing for the weather (winter) weren't going to get out the summer clothes just for the trams.

The Transport Minister's response?

Basically that women should wear daisy dukes and tank tops, even though it was winter and that many of the women taking the tram were businesswomen who need to look professional, and that people in general find the winter weather to be cold so they rug up.

I thought it was just stupid that someone could suggest that.
This is beyond stupid. Why couldn't they just turn off the heaters in the trams? Not only passengers would be more comfortable, it would use less electricity too!

[Foster Zygote]

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...?

Easily, I'd imagine. It's one thing to find a woman sexually attractive, but another thing entirely to then devalue her as a human being.

[Safe-Keeper]

Women and revealing clothing
Ok... this is something Ive been thinking about for a while...You naughty, naughty boy, you.

:p

[Darth Rotor]

Well, what do they think causes men to be aroused? Any woman who wants to look good and NOT arouse men should move to San Francisco.
One of the best kept secrets in America is that there are straight men in San Francisco.

It's true! :)

[ponderingturtle]

On the other end of the spectrum, I do feel pretty offended by men who say or imply that I am lazy or 'wasting it' because I DON'T dress very attractively or wear makeup. I've run into several guys who think I intentionally dress frumpy in order to avoid being noticed. I'm just dressing comfortably/inexpensively. You really can't win.

You can win, you just have to not care what certain sorts of others think. No there is likely no way that you will not get comments that you are not dressed appropriately for the situation.

They might also have a point that you are getting less attention from men than you might, but do you want more attention from men? If you are fine with the attention you get, then there would seem little reason to change.

[Mark6]

On the other end of the spectrum, I do feel pretty offended by men who say or imply that I am lazy or 'wasting it' because I DON'T dress very attractively or wear makeup. I've run into several guys who think I intentionally dress frumpy in order to avoid being noticed.
Do you really care what they think?

And if someone says "you dress to avoid being noticed", you can respond "Well YOU noticed, didn't you?" :D

[Lithrael]

You can win, you just have to not care what certain sorts of others think. No there is likely no way that you will not get comments that you are not dressed appropriately for the situation.

Yeah, that's a universal truth. I'm only annoyed when someone's actually saying such a thing, because I find unsolicited comments like that to be quite rude. It doesn't bother me deeply or anything.

They might also have a point that you are getting less attention from men than you might, but do you want more attention from men? If you are fine with the attention you get, then there would seem little reason to change.

Heh! well yeah obviously I get less attention dressed down than up. But yes I am happy with not wowing anyone. I like to hang out with guys; if I'm dressed up I feel more appreciated than included. And I'd rather feel included.

[ponderingturtle]

Heh! well yeah obviously I get less attention dressed down than up. But yes I am happy with not wowing anyone. I like to hang out with guys; if I'm dressed up I feel more appreciated than included. And I'd rather feel included.

I suspect that this is highly defendant on the guys you are hanging out with. I certainly remember going to a coed upper teen summer camp that had clothing optional swimming that not all men will react this way.

[gumboot]

Women leer just as much as men, they're just not as careless about getting caught. They manage to make salacious speculation sound cute and endearing, whereas men saying the same things just sound perverted. That's cultural double-standards for you.


That's just because women are tricksie deceitful liars, and men are good and honest... :boxedin:

[gumboot]

It's obvious: as you said, she was one of the smartest women you ever met!


If I recall, she came crawling back to him a year later, but he's a guy of principles, and he, also, is rather smart.

[Ivor the Engineer]

One of the best kept secrets in America is that there are straight men in San Francisco.

It's true! :)

I was only visiting.

[gumboot]

I can't believe that no one has brought this up, but I have observed that women most often dress to impress other women. No, not in a sexual way dunderhead. Many women just don't care what men think that much. Let's face it, women can get attention from men pretty damn easily. That is why I hate it so much when women complain about all they have to do to 'look good' for men, and then complain that men don't notice. Grrrr



This is my experience also. Women couldn't care less if men notice what they're wearing in most instances. They want other women to notice, and hopefully to seethe in jealousy.

[Magenta]

Ok...I know this is gonna be a touchy subject, but its something Ive been thinking about for a while...so here it is.

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.


Why presume that you know all about someone's motivations and worthiness of respect based on what they are wearing? Why not treat people with respect regardless of what they are wearing?


It's one thing to find a woman sexually attractive, but another thing entirely to then devalue her as a human being.


Well said.

[gumboot]

Easily, I'd imagine. It's one thing to find a woman sexually attractive, but another thing entirely to then devalue her as a human being.


I might be wrong here, but I think Parky's issue is with women who assume that because a man finds them sexually attractive, they have been devalued as a human being.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That is what enables us to deal with men. :cool:

Sexist!

[gumboot]

Women should stop revealing their clothing in public. It's disgusting! Dresses and jerseys belong in the bedroom, not on our streets where children might see them! Get rid of the smut!

[PixyMisa]

And how should a woman dress to bring attention to her mind?
Wear glasses. Chicks with glasses are hot.

No, wait... :confused:

[JimBenArm]

One of the best kept secrets in America is that there are straight men in San Francisco.

It's true! :)
Maybe someday they can come out of the closet!

[rwguinn]

I find it somewhat amusing that many people (men AND Women) Find it impossible to understand that one can admire, appreciate, and be moved by the appearance a great artwork and be able to understand what it is saying simulataneously.:D

[Edges]

I might be wrong here, but I think Parky's issue is with women who assume that because a man finds them sexually attractive, they have been devalued as a human being.

No, he is saying that if women don't want to be devalued, they shouldn't wear sexy clothes, because they cannot be appreciated as anything but a sexual object.


How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Emphasis mine. That sounds to me like I shouldn't expect men to listen to me if I happen to be wearing a short skirt because it shows off my skater legs. In fact, it seems to say that I should only expect to be viewed as a sex object.

Then, he later says:

i will admit, when a woman at work wears a big sweater and baggy pants, i definately listen to her more then when if she wore a hot skirt and a low cut blouse. if women want to be respected more for their mind at the workplace, they should think about what kinda clothes will make men see them in which way.

Pretty unambiguous there. This suggests, to me at least and others have picked up on the implication too, that not only do men not listen to women wearing "provocative" clothing, it is the woman's fault for wearing said clothing. It is not at all on the man for not being able to use eyes and ears at the same time.

[Wildy]

This is beyond stupid. Why couldn't they just turn off the heaters in the trams? Not only passengers would be more comfortable, it would use less electricity too!

This is Adelaide we are talking about. We seem to elect people who seem to turn off their brains when they have a situation like that.

[Alareth]

Do I have some form of x-ray vision or can everyone else see womens underwear when the woman is wearing white clothing over them?

[Cuddles]

just valued for their body...not their mind...

False dichotomy, the two are not mutually exclusive. People, both women and men, want to be admired for their bodies and their minds.

The context is important as well, for example the mind is far more important when presenting at a scientific conference, while the mind is pretty much irrelevant when wandering around town on the weekend. And really, it's not the clothes that say something about the person wearing them, it's the reaction to those clothes by others that says more about them. If you're unable to treat a colleague the same as others simply because of her clothes, that says far more about you than it does about her.

[Lothian]

And really, it's not the clothes that say something about the person wearing them, it's the reaction to those clothes by others that says more about them. If you're unable to treat a colleague the same as others simply because of her clothes, that says far more about you than it does about her.If a woman that decides to skip with a dress and to come to work in her underwear, does my reaction really say more than her actions?

I think you are broadly right, but when the clothing crosses the unacceptable line (wherever that is) I think the situation changes.

[rwguinn]

If a woman that decides to skip with a dress and to come to work in her underwear, does my reaction really say more than her actions?

I think you are broadly right, but when the clothing crosses the unacceptable line (wherever that is) I think the situation changes.

I have seen situations where both men and women adopt a mode of dress that is designed to keep everyone else from twigging that they have absolutely nothing to say, or that what they have to say is of the "baffle them with bull" rather than "bewilder them with brains" variety.
I am glad that my BS filter is permanently set to "narrow Pass"--at least when it comes to my job...

[tyr_13]

Actually I think the operative term in that sentence is, "when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body." Not that I'm saying that is what he meant, but that is how I understood it. I see how it could be easily seen the other way as well.

Now I can see both sides, but I can look at a woman I consider beautiful and still listen to her, and respect her. However, there are women who intentionally dress in an effort to just be seen as sexually desirable. Now I'm not claiming men can tell when a woman is intentionally doing anything, and I can't think of a more idiotic claim actually, but if a woman refers to a skirt as her "****-me," skirt, and then gets angry when you actually look down to see what she is wearing, something's wrong. (true story by the way)

You can't hold something some men or women do or say against other men and women. I know that is a 'duh' statement, but sometimes the obvious needs said.

[Lothian]

Actually I think the operative term in that sentence is, "when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body." Not that I'm saying that is what he meant, but that is how I understood it. I see how it could be easily seen the other way as well.

Now I can see both sides, but I can look at a woman I consider beautiful and still listen to her, and respect her. However, there are women who intentionally dress in an effort to just be seen as sexually desirable. Now I'm not claiming men can tell when a woman is intentionally doing anything, and I can't think of a more idiotic claim actually, but if a woman refers to a skirt as her "****-me," skirt, and then gets angry when you actually look down to see what she is wearing, something's wrong. (true story by the way)

You can't hold something some men or women do or say against other men and women. I know that is a 'duh' statement, but sometimes the obvious needs said.I am sorry what did you say ? I got distracted by your and Ivor's magnificent puppies. Perhaps you could cover them up and try again.

[ponderingturtle]

If a woman that decides to skip with a dress and to come to work in her underwear, does my reaction really say more than her actions?

It all depends on where you work.

I think you are broadly right, but when the clothing crosses the unacceptable line (wherever that is) I think the situation changes.

So women at the beach only those wearing a burkini should be thought of as people, the rest are sex objects?

[Lothian]

It all depends on where you work.Sure.

So women at the beach only those wearing a burkini should be thought of as people, the rest are sex objects?Umm, I am fairly certain that is not what I said. I said unacceptable, although I would expand that to inappropriate. I don’t think a bikini or burkini is inappropriate for a beach.

If in the middle of summer on a hot beach someone was wearing ski boots, a fur coat and a clown’s hat, I probably would stare at them and make a judgement based on their clothing.

[ponderingturtle]

Sure.
Umm, I am fairly certain that is not what I said. I said unacceptable, although I would expand that to inappropriate. I don’t think a bikini or burkini is inappropriate for a beach.

Acceptable meant that there is clothes people can be taken seriously and clothes that you will not treat them as being fully people if they wear. Appropriate is mostly just enforcing social conventions.

[Lothian]

Acceptable meant that there is clothes people can be taken seriously and clothes that you will not treat them as being fully people if they wear.
I has nothing to do with them being less than fully people. I think my point is clearly made. You are free to disagree.

[luchog]

Well, what do they think causes men to be aroused? Any woman who wants to look good and NOT arouse men should move to San Francisco.

Except then they have to deal with all the unwanted sexual attention from other women. You just can't win.

[luchog]

One of the best kept secrets in America is that there are straight men in San Francisco.

It's true! :)
There's even a special term used to describe them.

"Tourists".

:D

[tyr_13]

I am sorry what did you say ? I got distracted by your and Ivor's magnificent puppies. Perhaps you could cover them up and try again.

Ironically, I use that picture of me smiling with a puppy so that people will read most of what I write as a little light hearted and happy.

Some people base what I say on what I where and my looks as well. They assume I'm a musician. Ankle length coats and long hair will do that.

[Magenta]

No, he is saying that if women don't want to be devalued, they shouldn't wear sexy clothes, because they cannot be appreciated as anything but a sexual object.



Emphasis mine. That sounds to me like I shouldn't expect men to listen to me if I happen to be wearing a short skirt because it shows off my skater legs. In fact, it seems to say that I should only expect to be viewed as a sex object.

Then, he later says:



Pretty unambiguous there. This suggests, to me at least and others have picked up on the implication too, that not only do men not listen to women wearing "provocative" clothing, it is the woman's fault for wearing said clothing. It is not at all on the man for not being able to use eyes and ears at the same time.


I agree with that interpretation. And the bit about women being responsible for how men think and behave always reminds me of Muslim conservatives who want to impose sharia laws on female dress.

[ponderingturtle]

I has nothing to do with them being less than fully people. I think my point is clearly made. You are free to disagree.

But you don't treat them as seriously as you would if they dressed differently.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Ironically, I use that picture of me smiling with a puppy so that people will read most of what I write as a little light hearted and happy.

<snip>

I use Monty's picture to strike fear into my fellow forumites.

[Lothian]

But you don't treat them as seriously as you would if they dressed differently.I don't know if seriously is the right word. I would be very wary of people who acted inappropriately, whether that is their actions or dress.

To clarify where we started, I was addressing Cuddles point.

it's not the clothes that say something about the person wearing them, it's the reaction to those clothes by others that says more about them

I am agreeing, most of the time cuddles is right, however there is a point when it is not the reaction but the action that says more.

If I wear a GODHATESFAGTROUPS T shirt to a military funeral and the dead man's mother bursts into tears does it really say more about her than me?

I was not necessarily talking about someone wearing a short skirt or a low cut top. I am saying that there is a line that when crossed reflects more on the person wearing the clothes than those reacting to them.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

What's a burkini?

[Magenta]

If I wear a GODHATESFAGTROUPS T shirt to a military funeral and the dead man's mother bursts into tears does it really say more about her than me?

I was not necessarily talking about someone wearing a short skirt or a low cut top. I am saying that there is a line that when crossed reflects more on the person wearing the clothes than those reacting to them.


In the example you cite, the objection is not to the t-shirt but to the message on it which is clear and unambiguous.

When you're talking about an item of clothing itself, terms like "provocative", "short" and "low-cut" are subjective and the "message" might exist only in the beholder's perception.

[Magenta]

What's a burkini?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkini

[luchog]

In the example you cite, the objection is not to the t-shirt but to the message on it which is clear and unambiguous.

When you're talking about an item of clothing itself, terms like "provocative", "short" and "low-cut" are subjective and the "message" might exist only in the beholder's perception.

I do agree with those who claim that there is an appropriate type of clothing for the context. One doesn't expect a women, or a man, to come into an important business meeting dressed in the same sort of outfit that said person would wear to, say, a beach resort or a goth/industrial nightclub.

Seriously, if someone walked into a financial department wearing nothing but a skin-tight black leather miniskirt or shorts, black fishnet shirt, and electrical tape; a judgement is going to be made regardless of gender, and that judgement will definitely say more about the person being judged than it will about the person making the judgement.

Now, in the opposite case, where someone of a conservative dress and mindset encounteres a person dressed as above, in the context of the aforementioned goth/industrial nightclub, and makes a negative judgement about that person based on their dress; then that would definitely say far more about the person making the judgement.

Context is everything.

[Magenta]

I do agree with those who claim that there is an appropriate type of clothing for the context. One doesn't expect a women, or a man, to come into an important business meeting dressed in the same sort of outfit that said person would wear to, say, a beach resort or a goth/industrial nightclub.

Seriously, if someone walked into a financial department wearing nothing but a skin-tight black leather miniskirt or shorts, black fishnet shirt, and electrical tape; a judgement is going to be made regardless of gender, and that judgement will definitely say more about the person being judged than it will about the person making the judgement.

Now, in the opposite case, where someone of a conservative dress and mindset encounteres a person dressed as above, in the context of the aforementioned goth/industrial nightclub, and makes a negative judgement about that person based on their dress; then that would definitely say far more about the person making the judgement.

Context is everything.


Well, I've never worked anywhere where that would be considered suitable attire, but who knows what goes on at fashion magazines and advertising agencies. :p

But to address your (I think, extreme) hypothetical situation, there's a range of possible responses that I think do reflect the attitude of the observer. There's a difference between thinking, say, that the inappropriately-dressed person either doesn't understand or has decided to flout the social convention for appropriate attire in that situation; that they have dubious taste in clothing; or thinking that they are just an assembly of (usually female) body parts and therefore have nothing worthwhile to contribute i.e. a sexual object. The latter is what I object to in the way that some people discuss women's appearance.

[UNLoVedRebel]

This woman's brains make her so damn sexy. GGRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.topnews.in/light/files/margaret%20thatcher.jpg

[shadron]

burquini - a swimsuit acceptable for use by a Moslem female, at least on a female-only beach, the only kind they can use. Developed by a Lebanese designer, it closely resembles a wet suit, but of opaque fabric rather than rubber. It exposes only the hands, feet and face. Use Google and see some of the pics. It differs from a Victorian swimsuit only in using less fabric and covering the hair.

Oops, see I was beat to he draw, but at least I spelled it right (I think). :)

[a_unique_person]

What I'm saying is, in cultures where women cover up, men look harder. In cultures where nudity is the norm, men don't gawk at every exposed nipple.

Yeah, right.

[ponderingturtle]

I am agreeing, most of the time cuddles is right, however there is a point when it is not the reaction but the action that says more.

If I wear a GODHATESFAGTROUPS T shirt to a military funeral and the dead man's mother bursts into tears does it really say more about her than me?


That is because you are communicating a clear political message with that. What if the mother bursts out into tears because you are wearing shorts and not a suit?

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, right.

Well there are places that view bikini's as highly silly. What is the point of covering up your breasts when you are showing so much thigh already?

In such places people view that breasts are for babies and men want to see thighs.

[Cuddles]

I am agreeing, most of the time cuddles is right, however there is a point when it is not the reaction but the action that says more.

Sure, but I don't think that's really the point of this thread. It's not entitled "Women and finding extreme situations where certain clothing would be inappropriate". We're talking about short skirts and tight tops, not coming in to work naked. It's easy to come up with scenarios where it would be perfectly fair to judge a person by their clothing, but most of the time that's not the case.

As far as I can tell, Parky's point was that women should expect to be judged by their clothes if they reveal more than a certain amount of skin. If a woman comes to work wearing a low-cut top, would you judge her mind as being less than if she wore a big cardigan? That's what Parky said, and that's what I'm arguing against.

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

If a woman comes to work wearing a low-cut top, would you judge her mind as being less than if she wore a big cardigan?

<snip>

I wouldn't judge her, I'd be to busy checking out her tits.

[Lothian]

As far as I can tell, Parky's point was that women should expect to be judged by their clothes if they reveal more than a certain amount of skin. If a woman comes to work wearing a low-cut top, would you judge her mind as being less than if she wore a big cardigan? If there were three women in a work's canteen, one was dressed in jeans and a T shirt, another in a suit and a third in a short skirt and low cut top I probably would make assumptions.

[ponderingturtle]

If there were three women in a work's canteen, one was dressed in jeans and a T shirt, another in a suit and a third in a short skirt and low cut top I probably would make assumptions.

Yes that they had different jobs.

The one in jeans works in shipping and recieving, the low cut top one is in sales and the one in the suit is the accountant.

[billydkid]

All I know is I am for it - women and revealing clothing. Most of you guys missed the golden age of revealing clothing - from about 1968 to 1974. Skirts that stopped right, exactly at the crotch. Bralessness (a craze I really miss) and see through blouses and sometimes even both together. And then the religious right took over.

[Psi Baba]

I can't believe that no one has brought this up, but I have observed that women most often dress to impress other women.

Um . . . http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4212268&postcount=47

Funny, I was thinking the same thing when I brought it up! :D

[shadron]

Yeah, right.

I can understand you are being ironic here, but Maldalch is right. In Victorian times the appearance of a naked calf was stirring to most males, and would get the exposer talked about; today it means nothing sexually. Arrousal cues may begin in the genes, but they are very much culturally trained. You might also want to take a look at what passed for male swim suits of the time, as well; bare male chests and legs were considered just as taboo back then. In the places where breast nudity is the norm, males are not aroused by their appearance.

[wolfgirl]

I think the key word here is not meat or body, but "just".I guess that's how I see it. We don't mind being seen as sexy, as long as you don't see us as only sexy and nothing else.

I'm a middle-aged woman with a full figure, but I think I have nice cleavage (my husband tells me this is true, but he may be biased, so perhaps I'm making a fool of myself), so I tend to wear a lot of things that show off that aspect of my body. Doesn't mean I don't want to be taken seriously or respected for my mind. I just enjoy knowing (or thinking) that I look attractive.

[wolfgirl]

Well, I've never worked anywhere where that would be considered suitable attire, but who knows what goes on at fashion magazines and advertising agencies. :pI've worked in many an advertising agency. We mostly wear jeans and t-shirts, though it's pretty much anything goes!

[luchog]

As far as I can tell, Parky's point was that women should expect to be judged by their clothes if they reveal more than a certain amount of skin. If a woman comes to work wearing a low-cut top, would you judge her mind as being less than if she wore a big cardigan? That's what Parky said, and that's what I'm arguing against.
Interesting that this is limited to women; as I am positive that a man coming into work in similarly attired would be looked down in even more quickly. In fact, women have a much greater leeway than men do in what is considered "appropriate" in many different contexts. You often see women in traditional corporate management environments wearing mid-length and short skirts; but how often do you see men in shorts? Similarly, women can get away with low necklines, within certain limits, while men invariable are typically treated as "unprofessional" if they're not wearing a tie, or at least a button-down or polo shirt with no more than the top button undone. And styles of appropriate clothing are far more limited for men than for women.

Obviously, the standards are rather more relaxed in some industries, particularly entertainment and high-tech; but they're still much more flexible for women than for men.

[I Ratant]

If one is so superficial as to judge people by their clothing, be prepared for many disappointments!

[Earthborn]

What's a burkini?A bathing suit for conservative Muslim women (http://xicoriasexicoracoes.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/burkini230607mos-468x810.jpg) who have decided to be not so conservative as to let their faith ruin their swimming fun, and although not as naked as normal swimming suits, is a bit tight for something considered modest Islamic dress.

[tyr_13]

Um . . . http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4212268&postcount=47

Funny, I was thinking the same thing when I brought it up! :D

Crap! More evidence that I'm an idiot. Obviously what I must do is deny you ever said such a thing, or that I ever said such a thing, or that I even said this!

That would be evidence I'm not an idiot right?

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

A bathing suit for conservative Muslim women (http://xicoriasexicoracoes.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/burkini230607mos-468x810.jpg) who have decided to be not so conservative as to let their faith ruin their swimming fun, and although not as naked as normal swimming suits, is a bit tight for something considered modest Islamic dress.



It is a delightful play on words. Actually, it doesn't look that modest, but a nice compromise for some folks, I guess.

[EGarrett]

Ok...I know this is gonna be a touchy subject, but its something Ive been thinking about for a while...so here it is.

How can women complain about being seen as sexual objects, as just a piece of meat, just valued for their body...not their mind...

When they so often wear clothes that show their body shape, cleavage, etc etc??

Men tend to wear clothes that do not show our body shape. We wear pants that hang perpendicular to our waste. Shirts that dont often show our muscles, chests, chest hair, etc.

But women, wear tight pants, tight blouses, skirts that show ALL of their legs, wrap tightly around their butts, etc etc. And the blouses that show cleavage..and sometimes even part of the breast..I mean come on?

How can a woman expect to be valued for her mind...and not simply seen as a sexual object..when they intentionally dress in a way that seeks to bring attention to their body..and NOT their mind?

Constructive critisism and opinions welcome. Insults can be saved.This is a very good topic, and I've wondered about it a lot. I forgot who said it, but one of the best descriptions I've heard of the American female mentality is "look at me, look at me, STOP looking at me you pervert!"

[luchog]

If one is so superficial as to judge people by their clothing, be prepared for many disappointments!

Except that everyone does it to varying degrees. Anyone who claims that he doesn't make at least a few preliminary assumptions about someone's character or potential behaviour based on their appearance is lying. It's unavoidable, we're hard-wired to do it. The ability to make split-second decisions based on nothing more than immediate visual or auditory cues is a positive survival trait. We may later revise our assumptions based on further experience, but it's undeniable that those assumptions are there.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Except that everyone does it to varying degrees. Anyone who claims that he doesn't make at least a few preliminary assumptions about someone's character or potential behaviour based on their appearance is lying. It's unavoidable, we're hard-wired to do it. The ability to make split-second decisions based on nothing more than immediate visual or auditory cues is a positive survival trait. We may later revise our assumptions based on further experience, but it's undeniable that those assumptions are there.

Some experiments suggest it takes a huge amount of contrary evidence to override our snap judgments.

[Dancing David]

Well, this is just like saying:

If you wear nice clothes you are asking to be robbed. If you drive a nice car you are asking to be car jacked. if you have a nive house you are asking to be robbed. Etc...

A woman should dress how she wants, men have to stop making excuse for their desire to not control their behavior.

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

A woman should dress how she wants, men have to stop making excuse for their desire to not control their behavior.

Should we make the same demands of the mentally ill?

[gumboot]

Well, this is just like saying:

If you wear nice clothes you are asking to be robbed. If you drive a nice car you are asking to be car jacked. if you have a nive house you are asking to be robbed. Etc...

A woman should dress how she wants, men have to stop making excuse for their desire to not control their behavior.



I'm not sure that ogling an attractive woman is comparable with theft or car jacking.

Better analogies would be:

If you wear nice clothes people will ask you what the label is. If you drive a nice car people will photograph it. if you have a nive house people will ask if you're interested in selling. Etc...

My girlfriend's dad owns a 2007 Ford Mustang with a pretty distinct custom paint job and every custom accessory and addition you could ever imagine. Everywhere he goes people stare at his car, take photos, talk to him about it... police pull him over just to check it out...

It might be annoying but seriously, what did he expect? And you know what, I suspect he loves it.

[Edges]

My girlfriend's dad owns a 2007 Ford Mustang with a pretty distinct custom paint job and every custom accessory and addition you could ever imagine. Everywhere he goes people stare at his car, take photos, talk to him about it... police pull him over just to check it out...

It might be annoying but seriously, what did he expect? And you know what, I suspect he loves it.

Maybe so, but I'm sure nobody ignores what he says, either, just because he is driving that car. If I'm wearing a short skirt, I don't mind people looking at my legs nor do I expect them to completely ignore that area of my body. I do mind when that looking is used as an excuse not to appreciate my intellect or listen to what I have to say. The two are not mutually exclusive.*

*ETA And I think that suggesting that it is for men is actually pretty insulting to men.

[gumboot]

Very true. A good point.