'6th Sense'

[N1nja]

I have a question and I am trying to get some educated feedback as to what others may think on this matter.

I know that this person would most likely never agree to take the $1Mil dollar challenge, I am mostly looking to verify this ability.

I study Bujinkan Ninjutsu (Pretty much its old Ninja and Samurai martial arts)
There is nothing really all too mystical about it... and it really works.
But,
I order to receive a 5th Degree Blackbelt, we must take a test. The student kneels on the floor with eyes closed, the Grandmaster stands behind you and cuts down as fast as he can with a sword. The goal is to feel his intent to kill you and roll out of the way without getting cut.
It is not a trick, it is not timed out, you can't play with it and always get it right.
It has been performed outside and inside in different environments, sometimes he yells during the test, most of the time he does not.

So for skeptics out there, what could this be?
Or would you agree that this really is a 6th Sense or not?

If you would like to view some of these tests just search on Youtube for Bujinkan (godan / 5th Dan / Sakki tests) and you will be able to see some of these tests that have been performed.

[ImaginalDisc]

I have a question and I am trying to get some educated feedback as to what others may think on this matter.

I know that this person would most likely never agree to take the $1Mil dollar challenge, I am mostly looking to verify this ability.

I study Bujinkan Ninjutsu (Pretty much its old Ninja and Samurai martial arts)
There is nothing really all too mystical about it... and it really works.
But,
I order to receive a 5th Degree Blackbelt, we must take a test. The student kneels on the floor with eyes closed, the Grandmaster stands behind you and cuts down as fast as he can with a sword. The goal is to feel his intent to kill you and roll out of the way without getting cut.
It is not a trick, it is not timed out, you can't play with it and always get it right.
It has been performed outside and inside in different environments, sometimes he yells during the test, most of the time he does not.

So for skeptics out there, what could this be?
Or would you agree that this really is a 6th Sense or not?

If you would like to view some of these tests just search on Youtube for Bujinkan (godan / 5th Dan / Sakki tests) and you will be able to see some of these tests that have been performed.

Assuming that someone can do it some high degree of accuracy, you'd probably feel the shift in weight distribution that comes with preparing for a swing, and hear the subtle and familiar rustle of your sensei swining a sword that you've likely heard many times.

Back when I did Aikido, we did randori (4 against one "brawls," to simplify,) and I could often tell which of the two or three people I couldn't see was right behind me based on how much the floor board squeeked under their weight (one guy was over 300 pounds, and one girl barely 100) and the sounds the different typs of gis and hakemas they wore made. They all wore different brands of clothes, and they all habitually moved differently. And, sometimes they kicked the crap out of me. Still, the potential's there.

[sinclairmcevoy]

Heightened senses might be a more accurate term.

[Delvo]

What percent of the people taking this test get hit?

[N1nja]

it's not that, he can swing the sword in less than a second, if you think or try to respond you get hit, the body can't respond and move that fast.

[ImaginalDisc]

it's not that, he can swing the sword in less than a second, if you think or try to respond you get hit, the body can't respond and move that fast.

Could you explain that a little more clearly? I'm having trouble following you.

[Jimbo07]

The student kneels on the floor with eyes closed, the Grandmaster stands behind you and cuts down as fast as he can with a sword. The goal is to feel his intent to kill you and roll out of the way without getting cut.
It is not a trick, it is not timed out, you can't play with it and always get it right.

If unsuccessful, is it grounds for pre-meditated murder?

If he pulls the cut, you couldn't feel a 'supernatural' intent to kill, could you? Otherwise, on successful attempts, it is probably a well trained body and mind putting information together and reacting faster than deliberate reasoning. It goes for lesser feats of martial arts and physical prowess as well.

[madurobob]

I've watched a few of the vids - pretty funny stuff. Lots of people getting hit in the head with a wooden sword. The ones who don't get hit - looks like pure luck. The ones who get hit either simply sit there and get hit, or move out of the way long before he starts the swing and are treated as a sprinter with a false start. The few who "pass" simply start moving about the same time the sword swing starts - pure serendipity.

ETA:
QLvOZ1O96Jo
BTW - with the few who "pass" the master clearly shifts his weight before swinging - something he doesn't do before hitting many in the head.

[Edges]

I'm another one who thinks that if anything is at work here, beyond luck, it's not some kind of sixth sense but heightened senses and reflexes. I add the "reflexes" because that requires no thinking. It would involve having trained your body to respond to your senses long before your brain coiuld figure out what the hell is going on.

But, looking at madurobob's video, luck seems to be the main factor. Especially since several of the people who passed had at least one false start before passing, implying they really don't have the "sense" or heightened reflexes, just that one of their flinches happened to be at the right time.

[Jimbo07]

Lots of people getting hit in the head with a wooden sword.

It's a wooden sword?!

Where, then, this mystical, "intent to kill?" If it's intent to hit, you'll find that at any tournament. Good catch, madurobob, on the weight shifting. I'll look at the video later.

[madurobob]

It's a wooden sword?!
haha - yes! I was expecting to see a few heads split open in miraculous failures. Either that or a suspicious 100% success rate.

Good catch, madurobob, on the weight shifting. I'll look at the video later.
See how he simply whacks folks in the head at first. Then, towards the end, the success rate jumps quite a bit. Its because he starts almost jumping upwards before swinging down with the sword - as if winding up for a huge swing. The students hear or feel this big windup and roll out of the way. I'm pretty sure I could do it if he went through those same motions for me. It seems pretty clear to me he has students he intends to pass before the ritual begins.

[Horatius]

Then, towards the end, the success rate jumps quite a bit. Its because he starts almost jumping upwards before swinging down with the sword - as if winding up for a huge swing. The students hear or feel this big windup and roll out of the way. I'm pretty sure I could do it if he went through those same motions for me. It seems pretty clear to me he has students he intends to pass before the ritual begins.



Yes, that's what I thought too. In that video, they're also working on tatami mats,and you'd expect a shift in the sensei's balance to have a much more noticeable effect on the person in seiza.

I also suspect there's a bit of the "Clever Hans" effect here. They may not be consciously aware that they're telegraphing the "real" hits to the preferred students.




Besides which, I'd argue that, if I'm "sensing" something using my "mystical abilities", what I sensed was his "intention to attack" before he even starts swinging. So all those false starts are actually wins - he didn't swing because by then he knew it was too late!

I mean, if you're going to spin, why not spin out of control?





And yes, a real sword would be a lot more convincing.




Not that I'm trying to rid the world of ninjustsu students, mind you.

[Moochie]

Shenanigans.


M.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

The second guy in that video is brilliant.

[Delvo]

I knew about this before, but had never seen it being done. The video confirms the suspicions I had when I was a student in the Bujinkan. I was and still am convinced that the fighting techniques they teach are as useful as or more useful than what is offered in any other martial art. That's all human anatomy and body mechanics. However, I also got two negative impressions about the organization overall, from talking to instructors and reading books:

1. Somewhere around the first or second degree black belt (and these people are at the fourth and going for the fifth), they start to switch you from real fighting skills to weird mystical stuff without real-world basis or application.

2. Masaaki Hatsumi has managed the organization badly, allowing bad students to get promoted or promoting them himself, so they spread bad teaching, so the school name or the person's rank no longer tells you anything about his/her actual abilities.

We can all see the signs of #1 in this video, but I also saw some #2. There were students who, regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of their timing, moved rather awkwardly or slowly, and should not have had black belts with that kind of movement. One guy with glasses at about 1:30 actually jerked up toward where the blade would be coming from instead of out of its way or away from it, with a spastic arm twitch that would have added more injuries instead of preventing any. I shove grocery carts back together into their little storage formation line with more fluidity and coordination than that. Some of these people would never have been promoted to that level at most Bujinkan schools, but Hatsumi has let schools promoting them continue to run.

Something was off about the impact sound, too. Shinai might make that much noise and that kind of noise when you hit something with them, but Hatsumi's holding a bokken in this video, not a shinai. And they don't make that kind of high-pitched slap and wouldn't be that loud without some severe damage being done.

One good thing about it was that at least they were joking and casual about the situation instead of taking it too seriously.

[Stout]

It seems pretty clear to me he has students he intends to pass before the ritual begins.

That's the impression I got, It's like he gave those preferred students a clue as to when he was going to swing.

But yea, that sound of the strike, just like in the movies.

[Horatius]

Something was off about the impact sound, too. Shinai might make that much noise and that kind of noise when you hit something with them, but Hatsumi's holding a bokken in this video, not a shinai. And they don't make that kind of high-pitched slap and wouldn't be that loud without some severe damage being done.




Actually, it might have been some variation on a fukuro shinai. (http://www.jinenkanseigi.com/fukuro_shinai.htm) A youtube video is fuzzy enough that a lacquered one might look a lot like a bokuto.

You also have to consider that the people who did get smacked in the head didn't react with nearly the amount of pain that I'd expect if I was smacking them in the head with a bokuto. But it's just what I'd expect from some sort of shinai.

[N1nja]

If you think there is some trick or timing to it, you first need to watch all videos, what is available on youtube is a very small amount of footage over an atleast 30 year span.
The sword used is a bamboo training sword wrapped w/ leather.
it is the not strike, it is his intention which is felt.
I have taken this test. I was able to reach a state of not thinking, and i felt almost like a wind in my mind, not concious of my act, i was rolling before i knew what was going on, then i knew i had passed. - I am very skeptical of things, but after this expieriance, I am swayed it is real.
the explaination for this is that it was an ability gained thru real life expieriance on a battle field by ninja and samurai. for us it is expieriance gained thru the way we learn and practice.
as i said before, (some asked me to elaborate on this) you cannot 'hear' the sword swing, or feel him lean in or a vibration before he cuts down, and if you did and tried to "react" to it you would be hit...any body know anything about reaction times of the human body (educated in the subject) will tell you it's just not possible (I feel there may AT SOME TIMES be cases where a person can get lucky) but this is pretty much impossible.
You really must "feel somthing" and that is what alows you to move out of the way.
- again, i think i need to repeat this, this test (even though may look similar on 1 video) is never the same every time, he can cut at anytime, sometimes he yells, sometimes he strikes as he give a yell (KIAI), some times he does not, sometimes he sits there for about a whole minute, other times he strikes immediately. It has been performed outside, indoors in several locations.

I know he Masaaki Hatsumi would never feel the need to have this ability tested or challenged, however i would like someone like James Randi to give his insight on this matter. Anyone who took the time to go visit him, or request to do an interview or newscast or whatever about the bujinkan is welcome, all they need to do is contact him and set it up. (I do think if James Randi contacted him and traveled to japan Masaaki Hatsumi would be more than welcome to give him a demo of it.
I also feel regardless of any means i use to figure out what this is, other than what is taught, that this is the real deal, and Masaaki Hatsumi would pass the $1mil challenge.

In the old days, Hatsumi would strike very hard. (it all depends on how he feels like doing it that day at that moment in time. when the bujinkan became popular around the world (people travel all around the world to Japan to practice) he seemed to get softer or 'nicer' with the hits. but it really is different everytime.
In order to get a good observation you must go and see it in person. - or purchase every single video we have and watch everytime it is demonstrated on video to make an accurate assesment.

- About the "noise" or seemingly fake noise on the video- Keep in mind it is a video comcorder, you are watching it online (timing delay or computer error/ graphics).
it is not fake there are over 2,000 people around this world who can verify it. (as well as news documentaries from BBC, History channel etc...)

O yes, the bokken or Shinai, is made of bamboo, just like a shinai. it is pieces or strands of bamboo wrapped together, so it has give, it makes that kind of sound, but it is safe for training to prevent injury. go buy one at try it out! ;)

In ancient times- this was done with a real sword. Hatsumi had a real sword used against him. in fact, he had 2 cuts. his teacher cut down at his head and then laterally across the body. AND Hatsumi was not told he was taking the test. his teacher just told him to sit down and relax.
But, in the times of war, this test was given with a real sword, (at the highest level of mastery) when the grandmaster felt the student was ready.

For those who call it "hightend reflexes" or whatever, couldn't you consider that to be an extra sense (as in our 5 senses of the body?)
About the Bujinkan:
First off, we do not teach mystic supernatural things, it has to do with body mechanics, and phsycology, cultural aspects, how people react and respond etc... any teacher that says something otherwise does not follow hatsumi's teachings or they are making it up.
Our body movement is different than other arts, becasue it was used in real battlefield combat for survival. the way we learn is first thru the basics, from beginner to 4th Degree black belt the focus IS on basics and being able to do techniques. after you take this test and get 5th Degree you enter the world of HENKA - which means variation in Japanese, we do not do technique, we try to be relaxed enought to respond and do anything to survive, not relying on technique, or getting stuck in form. but changing and adapting to what hapens naturally.
We train slowly so as to not kill or injure eachother, and this creates 'feeling' for example-
when you try to punch the grandmaster, You feel as if you hit him, or "he disapeared" but he moved out of the way and then you are getting hit. it is because of the body mechanics and angles in which we move offline.
Hatsumi is lnot strict with the organization, he doesn't really mandate things. If you don't believe what he does then he says, that's OK, you dont have to train here, go do what you want. to sum it up, there are always good and evil, 2 sides to a story, everybody has there own opinion, and it will always be like that, there will always be someone who disagrees so he says this is nature, and he lets it be.
He looks at martial arts in an "Artistic" way, so he is not limited to drawing in the lines.... he paints on a blank canvas. - Genius is limited to the mind.
this is getting long... so i'll stop, I'll make another post after everyone has a chance to make a few more comments on this ability.

[Ashles]

So for skeptics out there, what could this be?
Or would you agree that this really is a 6th Sense or not?
It's not.

It's a combination of perhaps picking up on subtle cues and guessing. Hence sometimes they are wrong.

By the way there are more than 5 senses anyway.

There are between nine and twenty one human senses (http://www.wisegeek.com/how-many-human-senses-are-there.htm)

[madurobob]

as i said before, (some asked me to elaborate on this) you cannot 'hear' the sword swing, or feel him lean in or a vibration before he cuts down, and if you did and tried to "react" to it you would be hit...any body know anything about reaction times of the human body (educated in the subject) will tell you it's just not possible (I feel there may AT SOME TIMES be cases where a person can get lucky) but this is pretty much impossible.
You really must "feel somthing" and that is what alows you to move out of the way.

See what Horatius said a few posts earlier. If one is reading "intent" through some mystical 6th sense, why do the several who move "early" not pass? How can you possibly say they were not reading "intent" and getting out of the way?

[N1nja]

It's not.


By the way there are more than 5 senses anyway.

There are between nine and twenty one human senses[/URL]

you know what i mean.......

[N1nja]

If you watch close enough, most of those people were bobbing from the start anyways, they really were not sensing anything. and they intiate their movement before the test begins, or boefore the grandmaster makes the attempt to strike putting his intention.
If i stand behind you with a sword, and you sit there, then roll, but i do not attempt to strike or even think of striking, then did i give you the test?...
Part of the test is also the individual giving it. if you can't project your intention then you can't acuraterly give the test. knowing he has not yet attempted to project his intent and not having an attempt to strike, -he knows the person did not pass.

If this ability IS fake, then dont you think he would've just passed him then-if it looked like he passed?

[Edges]

If you watch close enough, most of those people were bobbing from the start anyways, they really were not sensing anything. and they intiate their movement before the test begins, or boefore the grandmaster makes the attempt to strike putting his intention.


Emphasis mine.

But so were several of the students who eventually passed. The only person I saw who didn't have a false start before passing on a second try was the woman, but the master definately had a major weight shift in her case.

Technically, if the test is about being able to feel the intention or whatever, anyone who flinches or has a false start should automatically fail. There shouldn't be second or third tries because they aren't feeling anything, they're just guessing.*

ETA Especially if what you say here has any relevance:

Part of the test is also the individual giving it. if you can't project your intention then you can't acuraterly give the test. knowing he has not yet attempted to project his intent and not having an attempt to strike, -he knows the person did not pass.

If this were so, then why did he give people second and third chances, even when he had not tried to strike? If he already knows the person didn't pass because he had yet to *project* his intentions, why did he continue the test?

[N1nja]

ok, i'de like to share a few stories now....
(real events that actually took place)

one of the Japanese masters a long time ago had a very good friend and american student who was a green beret, he was going to argentina or panama?...to train the army in self-defense. He asked this teacher to come with them to this country to teach them how to fight. This Japanese teacher was going to go, he wanted to go, but that night he went home and had a vision in his head that told him "DANGER" he felt ill and decided not to go. his green beret friend went, and on the way the plane crashed and everyone on it died.

I was in the Air Force for 8 years, (Security Forces) i recently got out in Feb. this year.
My last duty assignment was in Germany. One night at a bar i was sitting down with some friends laughing (drunk of course) and suddenly i stopped, shot my hand up in the air behind me and struck a glass that someone threw at my head, it fell straight to the floor at shattered. (the bar was noisy, music playing, i was laughing at the time with some friends, looking at them not paying attention to my suroundings and this happened with absolutely no indication whatsoever. I guy from behind me at another table was drunk and stupid and threw a glass (a thick german glass) at the back of my head.
I did sense there was something wrong, and my body reacted naturally from my training.

While in Iraq (This occured in December of 2004) I was in mosul we had just landed doing aircraft security from Qatar, i was in the chow hall eating with my partner and felt something strange, i told him we needed to go now, and i made him leave with me and we went back to our plane. by the time we got back to the flight line the chow hall blew up. someone had snuck pieces of explosives on base over a long period of time and put a bomb together in the chow hall....

so did i just get lucky? or is it safe to admit there is more to it than we know?

[kerikiwi]

ok, i'de like to share a few stories now....
(real events that actually took place)
...
or is it safe to admit there is more to it than we know?

It is safe to admit that your stories are much more likely (much, much, much ...) to be more fiction than fact

[paximperium]

ok, i'de like to share a few stories now....
(real events that actually took place)
As opposed to stuff made up on the internet? Uh yeah...

one of the Japanese masters a long time ago had a very good friend and american student who was a green beret, he was going to argentina or panama?...to train the army in self-defense. He asked this teacher to come with them to this country to teach them how to fight. This Japanese teacher was going to go, he wanted to go, but that night he went home and had a vision in his head that told him "DANGER" he felt ill and decided not to go. his green beret friend went, and on the way the plane crashed and everyone on it died.
And if he got on the plane, you wouldn't have a story to tell.
And if the plane made if back safe, you wouldn't have a story to tell.
This is called Confirmation bias or ad hoc rationalization.

I was in the Air Force for 8 years, (Security Forces) i recently got out in Feb. this year.
My last duty assignment was in Germany. One night at a bar i was sitting down with some friends laughing (drunk of course) and suddenly i stopped, shot my hand up in the air behind me and struck a glass that someone threw at my head, it fell straight to the floor at shattered. (the bar was noisy, music playing, i was laughing at the time with some friends, looking at them not paying attention to my suroundings and this happened with absolutely no indication whatsoever. I guy from behind me at another table was drunk and stupid and threw a glass (a thick german glass) at the back of my head.
I did sense there was something wrong, and my body reacted naturally from my training.
Yeah...in what way is that Sixth Sense? You sensed something. Are you sure in your alcoholic haze, that there was really no indication before you reacted?

While in Iraq (This occured in December of 2004) I was in mosul we had just landed doing aircraft security from Qatar, i was in the chow hall eating with my partner and felt something strange, i told him we needed to go now, and i made him leave with me and we went back to our plane. by the time we got back to the flight line the chow hall blew up. someone had snuck pieces of explosives on base over a long period of time and put a bomb together in the chow hall....
I do find this story very hard to believe and if you are making this up, very disgusting behavior.


so did i just get lucky? or is it safe to admit there is more to it than we know?
It is safe to claim that we don't know.

[Kittyclaws]

You must remember N1nja: anecdotes never equal evidence.

If you were subjected to appropriately blinded scientific testing and could demonstrate any kind of paranormal abilities, you'd be $1M richer. Are you up for the MDC?

[Edges]

N1nja: Don't expect to blow peoples' minds here with anecdotes. Anecdotes are pretty meaningless because they cannot be authenticated and are easily made up or embellished.

[Ashles]

While in Iraq (This occured in December of 2004) I was in mosul we had just landed doing aircraft security from Qatar, i was in the chow hall eating with my partner and felt something strange, i told him we needed to go now, and i made him leave with me and we went back to our plane. by the time we got back to the flight line the chow hall blew up. someone had snuck pieces of explosives on base over a long period of time and put a bomb together in the chow hall....
Wow this sounds like exactly the sort of story that would end up being reported in the media. They love any story with a hint of the paranormal.

So I'm sure you can provide a link to such a story...

Or even just a story about this bombing.

[Kariboo]

I am very skeptical of things, but after this expieriance, I am swayed it is real.

You are not skeptical if you change your opinion based on a gut feeling or a personal anecdote.
As far as I can see you have already made up your mind that there is something 6th sense-y going on and will only use rational explanations of your experiences to 1) come up with more anecdotes. Or 2) to say something to the effect of "But I still do think something more is going on there"

Are you really ready to look at your anecdotes from a logical, skeptical and/or scientific point of view or do you just want to tell some stories ?

[Rodney]

You must remember N1nja: anecdotes never equal evidence.
There is no such thing as anecdotal evidence?

[kerikiwi]

There is no such thing as anecdotal evidence?

Of course there is. But alone, it is worthless.

[Rodney]

Of course there is. But alone, it is worthless.
You mean like the anecdotal evidence of rogue waves?

[kerikiwi]

You mean like the anecdotal evidence of rogue waves?

Quite possibly.
Are you, like a rogue wave, building up to something?

[fishbait]

The goal is to feel his intent to kill you For your claim to make any sense the master would have to have the actual intent to kill you. You're telling us that he actually intends to kill you?

[Delvo]

And it takes someone with the special ability to be able to project this intent, so being able to detect it from that person is useless to defend against any other danger which doesn't project it...

[Rodney]

Quite possibly.
Are you, like a rogue wave, building up to something?
My point is that evidence should not be dismissed out of hand because it is anecdotal -- it depends how much support there is for the anecdote.

[Horatius]

And it takes someone with the special ability to be able to project this intent, so being able to detect it from that person is useless to defend against any other danger which doesn't project it...



...or if he decides to just kill you, without projecting his intent. You know, like a real* ninja would....








*Comment not valid for all values of the word "real".

[Moochie]

There is no such thing as anecdotal evidence?

It's hearsay, which in my book equals doodly-squat.


M.

[my_wan]

I watched the whole video. This is a skill that can be learned with a fair degree of accuracy but certainly nothing mystical. There is definitely a problem here with instructor bias. Once your body learns to respond to the cues it can happen even before you are conscious of it. The mechanism is built into your nervous system so that you can pull your hand for instance from a hot stove even before you are aware of being burned. Anything you practice enough can become automatic in the same way. It is this lack of conscious input that gives it a mystical aspect in your mind. I can't tell you how I know which of my family I hear walking up behind me but I do.

The physical cues begin when the instructor shifts his weight to his toes. In most floors this can be sensed along with changes in air pressure. The loose clothing actually increases the air effect. There is also sounds created of different frequencies. The degree of back motion of the sword then determines how much time you have to react.

EEGs prove that the brain responds at some level to stimuli too subtle for the conscious mind to be aware of. With practice and feedback you can learn to respond with some degree of success. Your brain can also learn to act automatically to stimuli that was learned consciously so you can actually be doing it while your conscious mind is thinking about something else. In fact a large amount of woo is created simply because the response seems automatic or intuitive without an identified stimuli. Your brain is wired this way for survival, the conscious mind is simply too slow to dictate response time in hazardous situations.

[The Atheist]

You need to go to Bullshido! (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/)

They are not only the MA and MMA legends, they also really, really hate this kind of paranormality masquerading as MA.

Even better, the Bullshido guys will literally kick their arse!

[kerikiwi]

My point is that evidence should not be dismissed out of hand because it is anecdotal -- it depends how much support there is for the anecdote.

Which is why I said 'alone it is worthless'.
Anecdotes, especially the type which claim an event that goes against the huge weight of daily experience, (that is, lots more anecdotes ) need plenty of support!

[paximperium]

You need to go to Bullshido! (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/)

They are not only the MA and MMA legends, they also really, really hate this kind of paranormality masquerading as MA.

Even better, the Bullshido guys will literally kick their arse!
The Bullshido guys normally challenge these woo-believers and often get turned down.

Some of the saddest and funniest videos are the vids of these MA guys kicking some dim mak practitioner in the face or beating a bujinkan ninjitsu guy to a pulp. Still no videos of woo-practioners kicking real martial artists.

[jimtron]

My point is that evidence should not be dismissed out of hand because it is anecdotal -- it depends how much support there is for the anecdote.

Anecdotal evidence alone isn't good evidence. What do you mean by support?

If I take a pill for a headache, and 15 minutes later the headache goes away; that's anecdotal evidence for the pill curing headaches. But that evidence alone--anecdotal evidence--doesn't mean much, because maybe the headache went away on its own (which headaches do), or maybe it was the placebo effect, or maybe something the person ate etc.

If this "6th sense" or whatever really exists, it should stand up to scrutiny beyond anecdotal evidence.

[N1nja]

look, i have nothing to prove here... I did not get on here and claim to have some kind of special powers...
these are facts which actually occured and can be verified, however with the incident of the guy who through the glass at the back of my head the only people who can verify it are 2 of my friends, the man who thru it and his friend who was with him at the time.
For the story about the Japanese instructor and the plane, it is a fact and i am sure if you do enough digging you would find it.
and i am not going to waste my time contacting my friends and witneses to these incidents who where there in person to verify just for the sake of having you believe my stories. I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

I have simply tried to give you the facts based on my expieriance, i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...
So, for the sake of keeping to my intent, OK, fine let's say you don't believe what i told you, so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?
I personally do not think that i have some type of special skill or ability, and i don't think i will be able to just make it happen when i want it to. I do think the grandmaster can.
i brought this up for discussion to get some intellegent insight. either you do not believe what i have told you, or you can except what i have said. - thats up to you, but what do i have to gain? really... I'm not some crazy person who got on here and claimed to have magical powers, I am still skeptical of it, and think there may be more of a phsycological or scientific answer for this.

I am not the only person in the world with 'stories' like this. this isn't hindsight, me looking back on a lucky incident and thinking it was something it wasn't. I'm not that stupid... There really was something about these incidents which took place before each event occured.

As for the comments dealing with him projecting this intent to kill, or not, in the real world when someone makes an intent to commit an act, such as on a battle field in ancient Japan, you really think they have the time to not put intent into an action and still comit it?....

whatever this ability is, it is not timing out the cut, feeling vibrations from him shifting his weight on his feet etc... try it out if you don't believe me.

I have tried to be bias in my reasoning as well, I have given you the reasoning from the bujinkan point of you, and i have stated my skepticism.
If i 100% believed in my heart this ability was for real or felt i had a special ability, i would not be on this forum at all, i have nothing to gain but wasting my time on the computer i have spent typing all this stuff out and responding to people who question what i've said.
tell me something about you?!! Now verify it, becuase i don't believe you... this is ridiculous.

But based on what i have seen training in the bujinkan Masaaki Hatsumi would and could pass this $1mil challenge, probably.
But what i really would like, is an actual anylisis of this ability. Like having James Randi go there and give his opinion on the matter to see what it really is. if any of you who absolutely don't believe me, have connections with some type of news, or magazine/ documentary, he does allow people to come and see what it is we do. and i do think if James Randi contacted him, Hatsumi would allow him to come and see this in person, which would allow him to make an accurate assesment.
So, if you don't believe me, that's cool, it doesn't effect me either way. If i see any educated responses or questioning then i'll respond to it when i get the chance.

[kerikiwi]

look, i have nothing to prove here... I did not get on here and claim to have some kind of special powers...

So sensing (without sight or hearing) that someone is throwing something at you is not a special power?
Sensing that a bomb is about to explode is not a special power?

i am not going to waste my time contacting my friends and witneses to these incidents who where there in person to verify just for the sake of having you believe my stories.

And those of us who expect verification for such extraordinary claims will continue to have doubts (which is my polite way of saying: will continue to think you are talking total tripe)

I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

You are not the only person who claims to have had such things happen to him. There is no believable evidence that your claims are true. You may be deluded, or lying, or a combination, but your claims are extremely unlikely to be true.


i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...

And you have been given exactly what you asked for.


so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?

No, let's not say that. First establish the facts, then worry about their causes. You can't ask what an ability is if the ability doesn't exist.

tell me something about you?!! Now verify it, becuase i don't believe you... this is ridiculous.

You are right about the ridiculous part.
Which of these two statements would you be inclined to accept, and which would you be skeptical of? :
I am sitting on a chair at my computer .
I am levitating at my computer. I don't need a chair.

[The Atheist]

...
these are facts which actually occured and can be verified, however with the incident of the guy who through the glass at the back of my head the only people who can verify it are 2 of my friends, the man who thru it and his friend who was with him at the time.

Anecdote from a couple of ignorant [of scientific methodology and what constitutes "facts"] people's assertion does not equate to "facts which actually occurred"

For the story about the Japanese instructor and the plane, it is a fact and i am sure if you do enough digging you would find it.

Someone else once told a story....

:s2:

and i am not going to waste my time contacting my friends and witneses to these incidents who where there in person to verify just for the sake of having you believe my stories. I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

Most certainly.

You will, however, be the first to convince someone with a working brain that it happened, should you have any success.


I have simply tried to give you the facts based on my expieriance, i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...

Have you ever participated in one of those security seminars where a robber bursts in and afterwards, everyone has to complete an ID form?

You should give it a go sometime. From my experience, 100 witnesses - giving independent evidence - can come up with up to 50 different scenarios. You and your friends have talked about it and convinced yourselves you all saw the same thing.

This makes you human, not stupid. What would be stupid is going to an internet discussion board with no evidence and claiming some kind of paranormal thing happened.


So, for the sake of keeping to my intent, OK, fine let's say you don't believe what i told you, so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?

Something else.


I personally do not think that i have some type of special skill or ability, and i don't think i will be able to just make it happen when i want it to. I do think the grandmaster can.

Ask him to go to Bullshido and state his claims.

He's not applying for the mio, so you'd get a much better response there.


i brought this up for discussion to get some intellegent insight. either you do not believe what i have told you, or you can except what i have said. - thats up to you,

Intelligent insight?

Doesn't seem to be what you're after at all.

My intelligent insight at this stage is that you are/have been mistaken.


but what do i have to gain? really...

Hotdogs? Class points for trolling? What do you have to gain?


I'm not some crazy person who got on here and claimed to have magical powers, I am still skeptical of it, and think there may be more of a phsycological or scientific answer for this.

And what if there is no scienitific answer? What if it's just another cheap trick, as every claim of this type has been? Are you going to go with the facts: all paranormal claims have failed testing; or the 1,000,000,000,000,000:1 chance that you've stumbled upon the greatest miracle in the history of humankind?


I am not the only person in the world with 'stories' like this. this isn't hindsight, me looking back on a lucky incident and thinking it was something it wasn't. I'm not that stupid... There really was something about these incidents which took place before each event occured.

A good show deserves a good showman.

But what i really would like, is an actual anylisis of this ability.

It doesn't exist.

The bill's in the mail.


Like having James Randi go there and give his opinion on the matter to see what it really is. if any of you who absolutely don't believe me, have connections with some type of news, or magazine/ documentary, he does allow people to come and see what it is we do. and i do think if James Randi contacted him, Hatsumi would allow him to come and see this in person, which would allow him to make an accurate assesment.

What a novel approach! The mountain won't go to Randi, so Randi must go to the mountain.

Marvellous stuff.


So, if you don't believe me, that's cool, it doesn't effect me either way. If i see any educated responses or questioning then i'll respond to it when i get the chance.

Ah, well if you're only interested in educated responses, then maybe you should have gone to Popular Mechanics or a science forum.

[Edges]

Kerikiwi already addressed a lot of your post, but:


these are facts which actually occured and can be verified, however with the incident of the guy who through the glass at the back of my head the only people who can verify it are 2 of my friends, the man who thru it and his friend who was with him at the time.
For the story about the Japanese instructor and the plane, it is a fact and i am sure if you do enough digging you would find it.

They are claims. Without more information than "some Japanese instructor" on "some plane", how exactly are we meant to find it? Googling for "japanese martial arts instructor, plane" brought up a lot of schools, but no story like you presented. Other search terms were equally fruitless. In any case, onus is on the claimant.


I am not the only person in the world who have had things like this happen to them.

Maybe so, but similarly, other people who claim these things without proof are generally not believed.

i have presented you with this test we take and asked for an educated reasoning as to what it really could be...
So, for the sake of keeping to my intent, OK, fine let's say you don't believe what i told you, so for the sake of the discussion let's say these facts are true, then what is it? what is this ability? is it supernatural? or something else?

And people have given you their opinions, several people, myself included. Many of those people have even looked at videos portraying the very test that you described before coming up with explanations. You may not agree with what we have said, but you cannot say that we haven't already answered these questions.

either you do not believe what i have told you, or you can except what i have said.

False dichotomy. We can also accept that you believe what you're saying without accepting that it is true.

whatever this ability is, it is not timing out the cut, feeling vibrations from him shifting his weight on his feet etc... try it out if you don't believe me.

That statement ignores the explanations that others have put forth for this "ability" if such exists. No one is claiming that any person with this so-called ability is consciously timing the cut or feeling the shift of weight. What has been suggested is that a person with this "ability" would have trained their body to the point that it can react to the slightest stimulus without conscious thought. This is not completely impossible as our body already has the ability to react to stimulus without our thinking about it (someone brought up snatching your hand away from a hot stove).

So, if you don't believe me, that's cool, it doesn't effect me either way. If i see any educated responses or questioning then i'll respond to it when i get the chance.

There have been a lot of educated responses and questioning. Whether you agre with them or not does not make it "uneducated" nor does it mean that the poster is completely disregarding everything you put forth.

[Rodney]

Anecdotal evidence alone isn't good evidence. What do you mean by support?
For example, physical evidence and/or a number of credible witnesses.

[kerikiwi]

For example, physical evidence and/or a number of credible witnesses.

And thus you are no longer dealing with anecdotal evidence.

[Rodney]

And thus you are no longer dealing with anecdotal evidence.
How so? In the case of rogue waves, there was plenty of physical evidence and credible witnesses, and yet, as a NY Times article put it: "Over the decades, skeptical oceanographers have doubted their existence and tended to lump them with sightings of mermaids and sea monsters."

[Stout]

Interesting topic, I've never seen this one before.

I took tae kwon do for a few years, and never ran into any woo, but I've always heard "these stories"....someone knows someone else who knows "this guy" who does kung fu and

Can throw his chi across the room !:eye-poppi

You never see it, but "it happens"

N!nja...you want this to be true, right ? You want some sort of scientific or rational explanation for an idea or ideas that super powers are possible if you only work on it.

You've got it, there is nothing rational or scientific in the function of these superpowers, they're all just stories and it's either a trick, a fluke, a "misremembering" or someone whose trained themselves physically to do things you or I find awe inspiring.

You may want to shop the idea elsewhere if your looking for conformation. There's plenty of people who'll tell you it's the universal life force, or God, or your spidey senses.

[Ashles]

How so? In the case of rogue waves, there was plenty of physical evidence and credible witnesses, and yet, as a NY Times article put it: "Over the decades, skeptical oceanographers have doubted their existence and tended to lump them with sightings of mermaids and sea monsters."
If there is physical evidence then it isn't just anecdotal. I am really confused why you aren't understanding everyone saying the same thing.

In your own example there is physical evidence. So it isn't solely anecdotal.

Now this isn't to say that purely anecdotal evidence may not cause someone to go looking for physical evidence. But alone it is not evidence.

I say I saw bigfoot - anecdotal evidence - no indication of existence.
100 researchers find me very convincing and go looking for bogfoot - no indication of existence - activity based solely on anecdotal evidence.
1 researcher finds a bit of hair that may be Bigfoot's - physical evidence - some real weight (no matter how small) has been given to the claim. There is now something to test, examine and scrutinise.

[N1nja]

BTW - for those who doubted me... i did a quick search on yahoo and found this...
(I cannot yet put links on my post so i had to edit this link to get it posted in here)

www
.mudvillegazette.com
/archives/2004_12.html

scroll down to the story titled "Mosul - the shot heard 'round the World?"

[N1nja]

I have been training in martial arts for over 20 years now. I have tried and seen everything....
Hatsumi himself doesnt teach this projecting CHI energy and doing all these crazy cooky tricks martial artists use, infact, he even wrote a book with this subject in it... and he shows old martial arts tricks and how martial artists use them to deceive people etc...(in japanese)

but in my expieriance in the bujinkan, ....this is very different, there is something to it, much more than the 'Awe' factor.
would i like this ability to be REAL, of course, but i'm not gonna blindly believe and follow without question. It truly is a different expieriance and the only way to understand what i am talking about would be for you to join the bujinkan and train in Japan with hatsumi himself.

I am swayed to the fact that this ability is what the bujinkan says it is becuase i have not found hard evidence to say otherwise. I do know this is NOT a timing trick, feeling vibrations, weight shifting etc...(but i am not stuck in my ways, if i find an answer or truth, i will accept it and change my opinion)
he swings that sword down in less than a second. I cannot roll my entire body out of the way while sitting on my legs in time, try it... you would have to spend 20 years of your life just training to do that and develop a skill for rolling out of the way like that...

yes in some videos, it shows him shifting up on his toes...but at the hombu dojo it is a solid floor, you cant feel any weight shift... this test has been performed outdoors as well, with wind, and other sounds from everyday life, cars, planes flying by etc....

also, what you dont see in the video are the 50-100 people sitting in front of you...none of them are perfectly silent, they all shift there weight while sitting on the floor, changing there positions, wispering to eachother... etc....
the hombu dojo is also located about 10 ft. from the train tracks and a train station a block down the way... there are constently other small noises and things present to distract you or enough to hide hatsumi shifting his weight, or hearing the air changes from him cutting down...

also, we do not practice this skill, we just train, practice hard, and when it is your time to take this test it is the first time you are attempting it... you dont have time to prepare...

I would except a response such as hightened senses or based on our training this occurs, but what is a hightened sense? can something intangable such as thought become a sense?.. a hightened thought, insight from something more than the physical?
if so couldnt this be considered extra-ordinary?......

So, now i have atleast provided sometype of evidence that this event in Iraq actually took place from a source other than my own word.
Please keep in mind, i dont live my life with a video camera ready and waiting for events like this to take place so i can provide people who don't believe me with evidence....
and i am not about to post my personal military records to verify i was there online for you..but i think with this evidence, it should sufice, i am not lying to you.

[Moochie]

I skimmed through the item you linked to, and all I can ask is, so what? It's an interesting anecdote, among millions of anecdotes that people all over the planet have relayed since time immemorial. They add up to nothing much at all.

As for your belief in this martial arts stuff -- even if it were true, it would be utterly useless against a gun-wielding character a la Indiana Jones when he was confronted by that clown doing his machete-twirling drum majorette-like showing off for the "true believers" in the audience.


M.

[Horatius]

I am swayed to the fact that this ability is what the bujinkan says it is becuase i have not found hard evidence to say otherwise. I do know this is NOT a timing trick, feeling vibrations, weight shifting etc...(but i am not stuck in my ways, if i find an answer or truth, i will accept it and change my opinion)
he swings that sword down in less than a second. I cannot roll my entire body out of the way while sitting on my legs in time, try it... you would have to spend 20 years of your life just training to do that and develop a skill for rolling out of the way like that...



Well, considering you've shown no willingness to "accept it and change [your] opinion", I'll give it one more try:

What this "mystical ability" is, is the rare and difficult task of paying attention. That's all it is. After years of paying attention in class, those who are serious about their training have learned to integrate every possible signal to let them know when/if someone is about to attack them. It's really nothing more than that.

As for your assertions that you "know" it's not sound, or wind, or floor vibrations, or whatever, as we've mentioned before, a lot of these processes are unconscious - in a lot of cases, you learn it without even realizing you're learning it. It's just one day, something weird like this happens, and you either go, "Oh, I guess I really was paying attention all these years!", or you go "Cool! Super Ninja Powers!!"

On the issue of his swing taking "less than a second": Everyone who has studied any martial art for any significant time can tell you that every attack is telegraphed. Good MA telegraph less than bad MA, and can see/sense smaller telegraphs that others miss, but there's always something there to be sen, if you're paying attention. When you react to the telegraph, rather than the overt attack, then it doesn't matter how fast he swings. You're already avoiding his attack by that point.

That you don't seem to know this tells me that you're either not a 20-year veteran of the martial arts, or that you haven't been paying attention.

Which is probably why this skill seems so mystical to you.




So, now i have atleast provided sometype of evidence that this event in Iraq actually took place from a source other than my own word.
Please keep in mind, i dont live my life with a video camera ready and waiting for events like this to take place so i can provide people who don't believe me with evidence....
and i am not about to post my personal military records to verify i was there online for you..but i think with this evidence, it should sufice, i am not lying to you.


And that is why you fail. All this proves is that you can remember an event that happened, and was extensively reported in the media, and can regurgitate it when necessary. You wouldn't be the first person to pretend to be someone he's not on the Intertubes.

Now, you can go ahead an re-post your same denials, or you can actually try to learn something. If you go with the second option, I'll actually bother to respond.

But at least pay attention.

[Edges]

What this "mystical ability" is, is the rare and difficult task of paying attention. That's all it is. After years of paying attention in class, those who are serious about their training have learned to integrate every possible signal to let them know when/if someone is about to attack them. It's really nothing more than that.

This is what I don't get about the attempt to magify(magicify?magickinate?) martial arts. Nobody has downplayed the intense amount of training necessary to hone the non-magic skill. It would take a lot of self-discipline to train one's body to not only pay attention to minute changes in the environment but to react to them as soon as they are sensed. Why isn't this enough? I know that I would never be able to attain that level of self-discipline. I'm just as awed by martial arts masters who have without thinking that they have some kind of "sixth sense" or mystical ability.

[Delvo]

In that video, the person giving the test and the one in front of him taking it cast at least three shadows apiece on the floor: one pointing forward from them and two others pointing forward and to the right and left.

[Horatius]

This is what I don't get about the attempt to magify(magicify?magickinate?) martial arts. Nobody has downplayed the intense amount of training necessary to hone the non-magic skill. It would take a lot of self-discipline to train one's body to not only pay attention to minute changes in the environment but to react to them as soon as they are sensed. Why isn't this enough? I know that I would never be able to attain that level of self-discipline. I'm just as awed by martial arts masters who have without thinking that they have some kind of "sixth sense" or mystical ability.



I completely agree. I've seen some of my sensei do things that are absolutely amazing, and every once in a while I exceed my normal abilities, and pull off one of these amazing things myself, and feel pretty proud, without having to feel all mystical about it.


I recall Phil Plait's tag line of his talk at TAM 6: "The Universe is Cool Enough As It Is, without having to Make Up Crap About It!"

[Rodney]

If there is physical evidence then it isn't just anecdotal. I am really confused why you aren't understanding everyone saying the same thing.

In your own example there is physical evidence. So it isn't solely anecdotal.

Now this isn't to say that purely anecdotal evidence may not cause someone to go looking for physical evidence. But alone it is not evidence.

I say I saw bigfoot - anecdotal evidence - no indication of existence.
100 researchers find me very convincing and go looking for bogfoot - no indication of existence - activity based solely on anecdotal evidence.
1 researcher finds a bit of hair that may be Bigfoot's - physical evidence - some real weight (no matter how small) has been given to the claim. There is now something to test, examine and scrutinise.
Yes, but physical evidence is rarely 100% clear-cut, and so if there is a bias against a particular idea, such as there was against rogue waves, the scientific establishment will not interpret that evidence objectively. Until recently, most oceanographers believed that rogue waves either occurred very rarely or were not even theoretically possible, and so despite the credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence, they continued to interpret accounts of rogue waves as exaggerations supported only by ambiguous physical evidence.

[Stout]

Interesting idea this whole telegraphing thing.

Warning! anecdote;)

When I studied tae kwo do, telegraphing was a huge issue, there were always people getting told about what, and how they were sending out signals, and apparently I was pretty bad at it. Not to worry though, it's to be expected at the green belt level.

The master once said to me..." I can tell from your body position and the way your looking what you're going to do even before you do"

[/end]

Would it be possible, then, to pick up on those telegraphed signals, no matter how "faint" they are even if you couldn't see your opponent ?

I'm still unconvinced by the video we all watched, and i side the idea that the master had select students that he wanted to pass and gave them a sort of heads up, but is this like some sort of super deluxe method to test the student's ability to read telegraphing ?

[Horatius]

Would it be possible, then, to pick up on those telegraphed signals, no matter how "faint" they are even if you couldn't see your opponent ?



Telegraphing works best when you can see the person, obviously, but it can really work on any possible sense. As someone mentioned upthread, in martial arts like Aikido where they do group attacks, you also learn to listen for people moving up behind you, and the like. At the highest levels, it's really an integration of every little bit of information that is available.



I'm still unconvinced by the video we all watched, and i side the idea that the master had select students that he wanted to pass and gave them a sort of heads up, but is this like some sort of super deluxe method to test the student's ability to read telegraphing ?


I think it's two fold: Do the students have enough confidence in themselves and the instructor to sit there and risk getting bashed in the head, and do the "selected" students actually have what it takes to pick up the signals the sensei is sending? Because even with telegraphing, if you're not paying attention, you'll still miss it.

[Ashles]

BTW - for those who doubted me... i did a quick search on yahoo and found this...
(I cannot yet put links on my post so i had to edit this link to get it posted in here)
www
.mudvillegazette.com
/archives/2004_12.html
scroll down to the story titled "Mosul - the shot heard 'round the World?"
You said:
While in Iraq (This occured in December of 2004) I was in mosul we had just landed doing aircraft security from Qatar, i was in the chow hall eating with my partner and felt something strange, i told him we needed to go now, and i made him leave with me and we went back to our plane. by the time we got back to the flight line the chow hall blew up. someone had snuck pieces of explosives on base over a long period of time and put a bomb together in the chow hall....
But the actual article says:
Consider this: a few short days before Christmas 2004 a suicide bomber entered the dining facility (DFAC) at an American military installation in Mosul and detonated his explosives, killing several Americans and Iraqis and wounding many more.
Now there is no way I can read that "someone had snuck pieces of explosives on base over a long period of time and put a bomb together in the chow hall" can be read as the same as "a suicide bomber entered the dining facility (DFAC) at an American military installation in Mosul and detonated his explosives".

Now, at best, this shows you were actually there but have an incorrect recollection of events or have described events badly. This in itself would be highly relevant when analysing your other reported stories.

It could also be interpreted by some to not be the same event and you were actually in a different mess hall explosion, but are using that one as an example.
Or that you weren't there at all.

[e-sabbath]

I can answer with assurance that it is possible to read telegraphed attacks from behind. Back in college, there was a rugby player who thought it was funny as hell to tackle me at random times, from behind, without warning. It was funny, you see, because I would be walking with my nose in a book, intently reading. However, thanks to the fact that I can listen as well as read, as well as catch shadows changing and a number of other factors including the movement of the air around me, I was pretty good at sidestepping and/or catching him before he actually got me.

There's a knack to it, but nothing more. But it is an odd knack.

Note: No, he was a friend, it wasn't bullying. He was just a rugby player, with an odd sense of humor. The funny bit was that I could dodge him. If I just went splat, it wouldn't have been funny.

[kerikiwi]

Yes, but physical evidence is rarely 100% clear-cut, and so if there is a bias against a particular idea, such as there was against rogue waves, the scientific establishment will not interpret that evidence objectively. Until recently, most oceanographers believed that rogue waves either occurred very rarely or were not even theoretically possible, and so despite the credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence, they continued to interpret accounts of rogue waves as exaggerations supported only by ambiguous physical evidence.

Credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence are not anecdotal evidence.

[Horatius]

Credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence are not anecdotal evidence.



It all hinges on the question of what you consider to be "credible".

[N1nja]

The reason i said what i said was becuase thats what i heard after the event took place... we do not get every single piece of intel and all the details that took place for every single incident. I was stationed in Qatar, while i was in Iraq on a fly away mission, this event occured... I don't actually know ever single detail...if i was stationed there at the time and worked on that installation we would have recieved the necassery intel...
i went back to the flight line and we took of shortly after this incident...

Pardon me for not wanting to sit at the computer and discribe every single detail in full, nor was the exact incident the issue, the issue is what i experianced while i was there.

[Lanzy]

More martial arts WOO.

I am a master in Hapkido, no BS of any kind. Years of hard work and training and I too have seen amazing feats. But, if ANYONE can wear a blindfold and duck out of the way of my striking them with a stick, I'll eat my black belt.

I'm not really trying to offend anyone here, but every mystical crap I hear about falls apart when a talented non-student of the "Master" participates.

and I really doubt Randi would be interested. IMHO

[Ashles]

The reason i said what i said was becuase thats what i heard after the event took place... we do not get every single piece of intel and all the details that took place for every single incident. I was stationed in Qatar, while i was in Iraq on a fly away mission, this event occured... I don't actually know ever single detail...if i was stationed there at the time and worked on that installation we would have recieved the necassery intel...
i went back to the flight line and we took of shortly after this incident...

Pardon me for not wanting to sit at the computer and discribe every single detail in full, nor was the exact incident the issue, the issue is what i experianced while i was there.
Was that post in answer to mine?

Because if so, are you really implying that your mystical experience didn't really warrant your fully checking on what actually happened in the mess hall after you left even though it was extremely clearly reported by multiple sources on a site which you actually linked to?

Is that really now what you are claiming?

Because that would make you either a liar or stupid.

[Horatius]

Because that would make you either a liar or stupid.



False Dichotomy.

[Horatius]

And while we're at it, as I wrote that last message, I was thinking, "Gee, the cat probably wants in!", and Lo and Behold, just as I hit "post", I heard the cat banging at the door!


Is this evidence that I can sense the intention of my cat to come home, or that I'm paying attention, and realize that 45 minutes out in the cold is just about her limit?

[Rodney]

Credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence are not anecdotal evidence.

Two questions, then:

(1) What kind of evidence do you consider credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence to be?

(2) Whatever your answer to (1), why do you suppose the credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence for rogue waves did not convince most oceanographers of the waves' existence?

[kerikiwi]

Two questions, then:

(1) What kind of evidence do you consider credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence to be?

(2) Whatever your answer to (1), why do you suppose the credible eyewitnesses and physical evidence for rogue waves did not convince most oceanographers of the waves' existence?

1.Physical evidence is not anecdotal. Anecdotal is the kind of evidence where someone says : 'I saw a plesiosaur swimming in Loch Ness'.
Credible eyewitnesses are those who give rational, consistent, credible accounts.
Physical evidence is a pile of plesiosaur poo.
2. I thought oceanographers are convinced of the waves' existence. Am I wrong?

[jimtron]

Anecodtal evidence: lots of people believe that they have observed advanced martial artists using mystical powers to sense certain things, like an approaching opponent, without using their natural senses. Obviously this kind of evidence isn't good enough.

Much better evidence: test this ability properly, ie, have martial artists with the "6th sense" telepath to each other without being able to see natural cues (visual, aural, etc).

Rodney: many, many people have anecdotal evidence that all kinds of stuff like this works, but why is it that when tested, these abilities always seem to fail? For example dowsing. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that dowsing works. But in simple tests, such as finding water in covered cups with dowsing rods, dowsing never works.

[arthwollipot]

As for your belief in this martial arts stuff -- even if it were true, it would be utterly useless against a gun-wielding character a la Indiana Jones when he was confronted by that clown doing his machete-twirling drum majorette-like showing off for the "true believers" in the audience.There is actually a purpose to that sword-twirling stuff, but it's not in a fight. I do it regularly to increase the strength and flexibility of my wrists.

Anyway. As has been explained many times, n!nja, there are rational explanations for the dodging-the-sword trick. Sure, it seems supernatural, but really what is happening is that you are training your senses to the point where you can detect sounds, air currents and so forth that are actually below the threshold of consciousness. As others have said several times, you're noticing the shifting of the tatami, the sound of the sensei's clothes, the movement of the air. You may not even be aware that you are sensing them, but that's what's happening.

I would be willing to try to "fool" this sense. I would stand behind you with my sword raised, ready for a strike. You would put on a steel helmet, becaise I'd be hitting you quite hard with a blunt steel sword, and sit directly under my sword with your eyes closed. I would wait motionless for a random length of time before striking. I think that you wouldn't notice the attack, because prior to me actually striking you I make no movement, I do not shift my weight, I do not move my sword out of its position. I would simply strike you in one single sudden move. So long as I am able to remain motionless before the moment of striking, you would have no clues to pick up on to warn you of. It would be as much a test of my ability to remain motionless in an attacking posture as it would of your ability to detect my movement.

Unfortunately I probably live 10,000 miles away from you, so we're unlikely to be able to actually perform this test.

[Horatius]

Unfortunately I probably live 10,000 miles away from you, so we're unlikely to be able to actually perform this test.


...unless we do it at TAM 7. Let me know; I'll bring my shinken.

[Rodney]

1.Physical evidence is not anecdotal. Anecdotal is the kind of evidence where someone says : 'I saw a plesiosaur swimming in Loch Ness'.
Credible eyewitnesses are those who give rational, consistent, credible accounts.
Physical evidence is a pile of plesiosaur poo.
But physical evidence frequently accompanies anecdotes, as it did in the case of rogue waves. Most oceanographers were not convinced by the physical evidence of rogue waves because they thought it was consistent with alternative explanations.

2. I thought oceanographers are convinced of the waves' existence. Am I wrong?

They are convinced now because of measurements taken by laser-equipped oil platforms, but the first such measurement did not occur until 1995.

[paximperium]

But physical evidence frequently accompanies anecdotes, as it did in the case of rogue waves. Most oceanographers were not convinced by the physical evidence of rogue waves because they thought it was consistent with alternative explanations.
Anecdotes starts a question. "I saw a UFO"
Evidence actually gives you an answer. "Radar information and etc. identifies the as a blimp/alien spacecraft etc.."
Anecdotes by itself is useless.


They are convinced now because of measurements taken by laser-equipped oil platforms, but the first such measurement did not occur until 1995.Yes. Evidence answered the question.
Why should they believe anecdotes until evidence was forthcoming?

[Horatius]

But physical evidence frequently accompanies anecdotes, as it did in the case of rogue waves. Most oceanographers were not convinced by the physical evidence of rogue waves because they thought it was consistent with alternative explanations.



They are convinced now because of measurements taken by laser-equipped oil platforms, but the first such measurement did not occur until 1995.

Anecdotes starts a question. "I saw a UFO"
Evidence actually gives you an answer. "Radar information and etc. identifies the as a blimp/alien spacecraft etc.."
Anecdotes by itself is useless.

Yes. Evidence answered the question.
Why should they believe anecdotes until evidence was forthcoming?


I'm pretty sure we've had a thread about rogue waves before. Unless you're planning to hit a ninja with one*, you guys should look that thread up, and go there!






*And if you are planning to do that, I'm behind you all the way!

[paximperium]

I'm pretty sure we've had a thread about rogue waves before. Unless you're planning to hit a ninja with one*, you guys should look that thread up, and go there!
*And if you are planning to do that, I'm behind you all the way!
I actually have zero interest in rogue waves. I'm more interested in getting Rodney to understand the limits of anecdotal evidence.

[e-sabbath]

I would be willing to try to "fool" this sense. I would stand behind you with my sword raised, ready for a strike. You would put on a steel helmet, becaise I'd be hitting you quite hard with a blunt steel sword, and sit directly under my sword with your eyes closed. I would wait motionless for a random length of time before striking.

I'd actually take that bet, except that I couldn't do it in a helmet. Which means that I'd rather you not use a steel sword.

Hm. Actually, I dunno if it would _work_ with a sword. With a bokken, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to sense it, because I've done the equivalent with mop handles and toy light sabers. It's all about the displaced air.

[Horatius]

I'd actually take that bet, except that I couldn't do it in a helmet. Which means that I'd rather you not use a steel sword.

Hm. Actually, I dunno if it would _work_ with a sword. With a bokken, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to sense it, because I've done the equivalent with mop handles and toy light sabers. It's all about the displaced air.



Are you talking about sensing the displaced air as he strikes? Because that would be some awfully fast reflexes, if you are.

But it would be interesting to try to come up with a protocol to test this, to see if he's really sensing the "intention" to attack, or some subtle physical cue.


Things we would need:


Uniform lighting, from the front, to avoid shadows that might give away the attack.
A solid (concrete?) floor, to reduce vibrations/flexing.
Tight fitting clothes on the swordsman, to reduce rustling/air movement.
Isolated from observers, to eliminate seeing people react to the swordsman's movements.
Swordsman willing and able to cut from a ready posture without windup or any noise.
Some means of randomly determining when to cut, and conveying that to the swordsman undetected.
A determination of how close to the cut the "avoidance" would have to be, to count as a hit.
Blindfold and earplugs for the ninja?



Anything else?

[kerikiwi]

I actually have zero interest in rogue waves. I'm more interested in getting Rodney to understand the limits of anecdotal evidence.

Ditto. He keeps introducing the idea of physical evidence as if to support the idea that anecdotal evidence is valuable.

[Zax63]

Wouldn't this make a good Mythbusters segment? See if someone can get out of the way when they know it's coming, then when they don't know and a person is wielding the sword and then with the obligatory robot wielding the sword. Not sure how to fit an explosion in there but I'm sure they could figure out something.

[Rodney]

Ditto. He keeps introducing the idea of physical evidence as if to support the idea that anecdotal evidence is valuable.
I've started a new thread on anecdotal evidence.

[madurobob]

Anything else?
Well, it would be nice to rig a simple mechanism to randomly drop a sword, too. Such that the participant does not know if its a human or machine he's working with.

Since we're talking about sensing the sword holder's intent to strike, it would be nice to have a control that can have no intent.

[e-sabbath]

Are you talking about sensing the displaced air as he strikes? Because that would be some awfully fast reflexes, if you are.

I didn't say I could dodge it well, just that I could react. :) But yeah, if I'm lucky, I'm fairly good at detecting things entering 'my personal space'. I have a theory about peripheral vision combined with feeling air pressure on my hair.

Note: Lucky is defined as 'I have the reflexes of a sloth with low blood sugar, though.'

[Horatius]

I didn't say I could dodge it well, just that I could react. :)



Well, okay then. Speaking as a swordsman, I don't care if I split you in thirds lengthwise, rather than in half - you're still dead! ;)


And that's the biggest problem with all these exercises - swords are nasty enough that even a bad cut is still usually enough to take a person out of the fight!

[Horatius]

Well, it would be nice to rig a simple mechanism to randomly drop a sword, too. Such that the participant does not know if its a human or machine he's working with.

Since we're talking about sensing the sword holder's intent to strike, it would be nice to have a control that can have no intent.



That's true, but we have to ensure that the mechanism itself doesn't give off any cues, like clicks or something , just prior to the cut. Even a fraction of a second warning would be enough for some people.

[paximperium]

Well, okay then. Speaking as a swordsman, I don't care if I split you in thirds lengthwise, rather than in half - you're still dead! ;)


And that's the biggest problem with all these exercises - swords are nasty enough that even a bad cut is still usually enough to take a person out of the fight!
You know during kendo keikos, my sparring partners are so fact that I can barely see their shinai strikes and yet I somehow react fast enough to block these strikes.

I believe the combination of muscle memory and just plain in built learnt "reflexes" help a whole lot. When I see the higher dan guys spar, their speed is almost supernatural...the senseis judging the strikes have vision that is also almost supernatural.

[Horatius]

You know during kendo keikos, my sparring partners are so fact that I can barely see their shinai strikes and yet I somehow react fast enough to block these strikes.

I believe the combination of muscle memory and just plain in built learnt "reflexes" help a whole lot. When I see the higher dan guys spar, their speed is almost supernatural...the senseis judging the strikes have vision that is also almost supernatural.



I've seen, and done, the same thing. There was one class, where the best player in the club backed me into the wall, just as another person backed into the same bit of wall - so he had me trapped. The guy I was playing against then launched about 4 rapid fire strikes against me, and I just flowed along, and blocked all of them. Totally amazing, that was.

If only I could do things like that consistently!

[arthwollipot]

I'd actually take that bet, except that I couldn't do it in a helmet. Which means that I'd rather you not use a steel sword.Why would you not be able to do it in a helmet? I'm suggesting a spangenhelm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spangenhelm), not a great helm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_helm).

Hm. Actually, I dunno if it would _work_ with a sword. With a bokken, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to sense it, because I've done the equivalent with mop handles and toy light sabers. It's all about the displaced air.If it's all about displaced air, then it would actually be a lot harder to avoid a steel sword than a bokken. It would also be harder to avoid an English mortuary sword than a katana. Both a katana and a bokken are thicker than an English sword and displace more air. That's one reason why I would want to do the test with a steel sword, preferably of a European design.

[arthwollipot]

I've seen, and done, the same thing. There was one class, where the best player in the club backed me into the wall, just as another person backed into the same bit of wall - so he had me trapped. The guy I was playing against then launched about 4 rapid fire strikes against me, and I just flowed along, and blocked all of them. Totally amazing, that was.

If only I could do things like that consistently!I've got video of me doing that kind of blocking, but YouTube is blocked here at work. Search YouTube for "AAF Norman Knight Fight" and you should find it, or get the MPG at http://www.aaf.org.au/gallery/videos/displays/bergmann-anglican-school/MOV05211.MPG (21.1Mb download...). The bit I'm thinking of occurs at about the 29 second mark. Mike makes a fast attack to my head and I whirl my sword to deflect it without conscious thought. In fact, you can see my conscious thought, as I duck my head slightly, knowing for a fact that I'm about to be hit. :) Yes, I'm the one that's humiliated at the end...

[Miss_Kitt]

Arthwollipot, your value on the Keen Guy market continues to rise!!

I dreamed last night that I was attending an SCA-style event in the company of PZ Myers...maybe I was actually dreaming about you? I bet you'd go along to a pseudo-medieval casino party / tourney / memorial party for departed founder!

Hugs, MK

[arthwollipot]

Actually, I think that the SCA takes itself far too seriously. I gave up on them many years ago. Other kingdoms might be OK though.

[Horatius]

I've got video of me doing that kind of blocking, but YouTube is blocked here at work. Search YouTube for "AAF Norman Knight Fight" and you should find it, or get the MPG at http://www.aaf.org.au/gallery/videos/displays/bergmann-anglican-school/MOV05211.MPG (21.1Mb download...). The bit I'm thinking of occurs at about the 29 second mark. Mike makes a fast attack to my head and I whirl my sword to deflect it without conscious thought. In fact, you can see my conscious thought, as I duck my head slightly, knowing for a fact that I'm about to be hit. :) Yes, I'm the one that's humiliated at the end...


This one?

d-jxczHdiX8

[e-sabbath]

The reason I suspect it might not work so well in a helmet is because I think I'm sensing wind on my hair. Like a cat's whiskers, only much less well suited for the job.

[John Freestone]

I haven't read to the end yet to see if anyone picked this point up:

also, what you dont see in the video are the 50-100 people sitting in front of you...none of them are perfectly silent, they all shift there weight while sitting on the floor, changing there positions, wispering to eachother... etc....So as sources of subliminal or conscious cues about when the strike might be starting we can add the body-language of 50-100 people watching it, wondering if their fellow will get bashed/cut or pass an important test. They're going to give tiny involuntary movements - or great big obvious ones in some cases. This, to my mind, is probably a greater source of information than the sounds, air movements, changes of lighting and shadows, vibration through the floor, etc.

[Kuko 4000]

Two things from the YouTube video in post #8:

QLvOZ1O96Jo

1) Is there really an "intention to kill"?

2) The master definitely moves differently before the attacks and this movement has a CLEAR connection to the pass rate.

How would you comment on these points N1nja?

My conclusion is that nothing out of the ordinary seems to happen in this video.

[Horatius]

I haven't read to the end yet to see if anyone picked this point up:

So as sources of subliminal or conscious cues about when the strike might be starting we can add the body-language of 50-100 people watching it, wondering if their fellow will get bashed/cut or pass an important test. They're going to give tiny involuntary movements - or great big obvious ones in some cases. This, to my mind, is probably a greater source of information than the sounds, air movements, changes of lighting and shadows, vibration through the floor, etc.



I alluded to it in my post about creating a testing protocol:

But it would be interesting to try to come up with a protocol to test this, to see if he's really sensing the "intention" to attack, or some subtle physical cue.


Things we would need:


Uniform lighting, from the front, to avoid shadows that might give away the attack.
A solid (concrete?) floor, to reduce vibrations/flexing.
Tight fitting clothes on the swordsman, to reduce rustling/air movement.
Isolated from observers, to eliminate seeing people react to the swordsman's movements.
Swordsman willing and able to cut from a ready posture without windup or any noise.
Some means of randomly determining when to cut, and conveying that to the swordsman undetected.
A determination of how close to the cut the "avoidance" would have to be, to count as a hit.
Blindfold and earplugs for the ninja?



Anything else?

[arthwollipot]

This one?

d-jxczHdiX8Probably. Like I said, I can't check. :)

The reason I suspect it might not work so well in a helmet is because I think I'm sensing wind on my hair. Like a cat's whiskers, only much less well suited for the job.Ah, fair enough. Well, we could try it with a shinai, but it'd still hurt your head if I hit it.

[Horatius]

Probably. Like I said, I can't check. :)



Well the YouTube user name was something like "arthwollipot", so I assumed it was the correct one!



Ah, fair enough. Well, we could try it with a shinai, but it'd still hurt your head if I hit it.



If you hit him? I thought I was going to get to hit him!










Maybe we could take turns?


;)

[arthwollipot]

Well the YouTube user name was something like "arthwollipot", so I assumed it was the correct one!Yep, that's me.

If you hit him? I thought I was going to get to hit him!

Maybe we could take turns?I'm sure there's enough of him for us to share.

[John Freestone]

I alluded to it in my post about creating a testing protocol:Ah so. And a very good protocol it is too. I just hadn't got to it yet, and felt I'd better post while I thought of it.

As you also say in that post, it's unlikely that anyone could react in time to the air-pressure changes of a sword starting to descend; it would have to a reaction from wind-up movements (bunny-ears behind the head, that kind of thing:rolleyes:).

The random waiting time limit and its relationship to the approximate time of the action and distance of miss would be important, and raises some difficult problems (to me; I'm not used to analysing such things, though). The shorter the time that the swordsman waits, presumably, the easier it is to make a lucky guess as to when to roll, because of that ratio (and the relatively long time it takes to roll - I presume that if we were judging someone's ability to click a mouse just when a dot appears on a screen, the waiting times can be shorter, because a lag of only a few milliseconds might be considered a miss). However, if we're testing to see if someone has a significant ability to detect the intention of the swordsman, we might also assume that they are psychically advanced enough to do so with very little error, and to have the mental control to maintain even a sensitive concentration for minutes.

One of the most important biases in the tests I've seen online (apart from the audience) is the short waiting time, reducing the risk of just going for it and hoping the sword was coming when you decide to roll. And, of course, there is a lot of background communication and unwritten rules involved here: in the group situation, students learn from the increasing number of previous demos the sort of length of time the master is going to wait - making that window of lucky guesses smaller. In the ones I watched, it only went up to about 5 or 6 seconds. There's little reason why a participant couldn't sit for 5 minutes or more, if their ability is real, and still react only once, at the right moment.

The protocol you suggest, and a reasonably extended waiting time, would dispel the myth. Ha - another bit of woo for sceptics to go to all the trouble of disproving! Still, if the scpetics get to hit the woos on the head in the process, we're making progress. This could become a standard protocol. "So, we're about to start testing your psychic powers. Your blindfold is in place. Comfy? Right. Now, at an unspecified time, I'm going to smack you in the nose with my fist. Ok?"

[Cuddles]

1) Is there really an "intention to kill"?

I think this is probably the most important point and hasn't had enough attention. The claim is not that people can sense someone about to swing a fake sword, the claim is that they can sense the intention to kill them. Clearly the tester has absolutely no intention of actually killing anyone (either that or he is absolutely the worst martial arts master ever to have existed), so the claim is trivially false.

The question of whether a person might be able to sense a swing coming and how they would do so may be an interesting one, but it really has nothing to do with the claim in question.

[paximperium]

I think this is probably the most important point and hasn't had enough attention. The claim is not that people can sense someone about to swing a fake sword, the claim is that they can sense the intention to kill them. Clearly the tester has absolutely no intention of actually killing anyone (either that or he is absolutely the worst martial arts master ever to have existed), so the claim is trivially false.

The question of whether a person might be able to sense a swing coming and how they would do so may be an interesting one, but it really has nothing to do with the claim in question.
The ability to sense and project a "intention to kill" is a rather common martial arts mythic belief.

I believe it is mostly Japanese in origin, but the ability to sense this intention allows a warrior to sense threats while the ability to project this intention allows the warrior to scare their opponents.

That being said, in a test, a sensei will need to be a rather disturbed person to desire to kill a student.

[John Freestone]

Yes, the intention to kill problem is interesting, but I'm not sure it makes a difference concerning the claim. It is, of course, the kind of issue that a believer brings up if they fail to show their psi ability. "I could do it, but the sensei wasn't projecting properly". Still, if the ability is real, it involves the claim that the projection of intent is real too, and the two claims stand or fall together. It is important, because the projection by the swordsman is under scrutiny too, and in the case of a scientific test, the claimant would have to agree that the swordsman's ability was real as well as their ability to sense it. They'll go off and blame each other, no doubt.

But essentially it makes no more difference than if a mind-reader said that they could read minds, but not the internal states of computers. You'd just test using a person rather than a random number generator.

[Horatius]

I think this is probably the most important point and hasn't had enough attention. The claim is not that people can sense someone about to swing a fake sword, the claim is that they can sense the intention to kill them. Clearly the tester has absolutely no intention of actually killing anyone (either that or he is absolutely the worst martial arts master ever to have existed), so the claim is trivially false.



I'd suggest that sensing the "intention to hurt you a lot" would be fundamentally similar.

But it does add one more requirement to our testing protocol: A Location in which premeditated murder (or at least, mayhem) isn't a problem!


The question of whether a person might be able to sense a swing coming and how they would do so may be an interesting one, but it really has nothing to do with the claim in question.


But it does come into designing a protocol, so as to eliminate all those other possibilities.



That being said, in a test, a sensei will need to be a rather disturbed person to desire to kill a student.



Good thing they're not my students then, right? ;)


They talk about this in terms of sensing an intention to "kill"; however, it's clear that they are sensing no more than an intention to "smack", if that. If we were to test this, we'd have to do an "open" test, without all the above controls, just to show that the testee can "sense" whatever "intention" the swordsman is projecting. Basically, replicate the events of any of those YouTube videos. Then, if that's successful, we see if he can still do it with all the controls in place. That precludes the claim that the swordsman "couldn't project" his intent, or "didn't have a true intention to attack".

[John Freestone]

They talk about this in terms of sensing an intention to "kill"; however, it's clear that they are sensing no more than an intention to "smack", if that. If we were to test this, we'd have to do an "open" test, without all the above controls, just to show that the testee can "sense" whatever "intention" the swordsman is projecting. Basically, replicate the events of any of those YouTube videos. Then, if that's successful, we see if he can still do it with all the controls in place. That precludes the claim that the swordsman "couldn't project" his intent, or "didn't have a true intention to attack".Can you help me understand that better please, Horatius? When you say 'then, if that's successful', do you mean that replicating the tests in the videos would allow one to produce a situation in which the claimant said "Yes, I'm happy that I could sense and respond to the master's intention to bash me"...so that, with the next stage, controlling for vibration, noise, audience participation, etc., they can't easily claim that the intention isn't being projected?

If that's what you mean, presumably it's not about whether its an intention to smack or kill, just whether there's something 'psychically' detectable.

[Horatius]

Can you help me understand that better please, Horatius? When you say 'then, if that's successful', do you mean that replicating the tests in the videos would allow one to produce a situation in which the claimant said "Yes, I'm happy that I could sense and respond to the master's intention to bash me"...so that, with the next stage, controlling for vibration, noise, audience participation, etc., they can't easily claim that the intention isn't being projected?

If that's what you mean, presumably it's not about whether its an intention to smack or kill, just whether there's something 'psychically' detectable.



Yes, that's what I mean. They claim they're detecting something other than a physical cue that the attack is coming. They describe what they sense as the "intention to attack", however, this is merely their interpretation of what they're sensing. But it's clear that it's not a very accurate interpretation based on the "no one actually gets killed" videos we've seen. So, as you say, it's really nothing more than some indeterminate "psychic" power, regardless of what the actual "intention" is.


Once we've shown that Ninja A can detect the "whatever" from Swordsman B under conditions similar to those Ninja A always uses, we can then control for as many of the physical cues as possible, to see if he's really sensing the "whatever", and not just light/shadows/noises/vibrations/"whatever else".

[John Freestone]

Yes, that's what I mean. They claim they're detecting something other than a physical cue that the attack is coming. They describe what they sense as the "intention to attack", however, this is merely their interpretation of what they're sensing. But it's clear that it's not a very accurate interpretation based on the "no one actually gets killed" videos we've seen. So, as you say, it's really nothing more than some indeterminate "psychic" power, regardless of what the actual "intention" is.


Once we've shown that Ninja A can detect the "whatever" from Swordsman B under conditions similar to those Ninja A always uses, we can then control for as many of the physical cues as possible, to see if he's really sensing the "whatever", and not just light/shadows/noises/vibrations/"whatever else".I see. Thank you. It assumes, however, that they are successful, i.e. that they are sensing something. I think that's why your suggestion surprised me, because I imagine that ascertaining whether anyone is sensing something would be difficult. Of course, if the cues we have already listed are strong enough, the adept might demonstrate a significant success rate, however that is determined. It's just that I'm not at all convinced there's a large element of detection, or perhaps any at all. Even an open test, therefore, given a fair analysis (controlling for simple confirmation bias, etc.) might show a success rate no better than chance. That part of the test, if anyone is serious about doing one, would perhaps be the most important part, since even if all possible cues are eliminated, all the usual biases of human interpretation remain.

I'm not criticising your suggestion, and I was genuinely interested to understand it. It would be a useful principle, and, if there is some detection going on, would help to dispel the belief that it is a violent intention being detected.

[arthwollipot]

All the time when swordfighting I see people make swings that are not intended to strike the opponent. Sometimes it is timidity, sometimes it is a recognition that the defender is going to easily be able to parry the shot, sometimes it is a deliberate second intention or feint. If you're paying intention, it's easy to spot.

[Horatius]

I see. Thank you. It assumes, however, that they are successful, i.e. that they are sensing something.



Yes, it's possible that every claimed "success" is just a random occurrence that the sensei decided counts as a pass, but from watching the videos we've seen, it's clear to me that the sensei is actually deliberately telegraphing his attacks to those he wants to pass. So I'd say they are detecting something, just that the "something" is nothing mystical.

But yes, we'd need to do some trial runs to see if the ninja could do anything at all, under any circumstances, with a swordsman who isn't deliberately telegraphing his attack.

[arthwollipot]

But yes, we'd need to do some trial runs to see if the ninja could do anything at all, under any circumstances, with a swordsman who isn't deliberately telegraphing his attack.That is actually quite difficult to do...

[P.J. Denyer]

That is actually quite difficult to do...

Under the current understanding of the claim (that it is the INTENTION being transmitted in some way), perhaps not. A Mythbusters type sword swinging robot could be used triggered either randomly or by a human being who the test subject has agreed possess the claimed ablility to project their intention. The trigger person can be given a random cue that is not detectable to the subject and would then only have to hit a button. Set up properly the circumstances could be as close to identicle as could be hoped, perhaps even a double blind protocol could be designed where EITHER the human or timer triggered the sword.

[Horatius]

That is actually quite difficult to do...



Difficult, but not impossible, depending on the circumstances. However, if we can show that Ninja A can't do this at all when the swordsman isn't helping him out, then it pretty much debunks the whole "sensing the intention" bit, in any case.


But, funny story time: Last night at class, I was showing the application of one of out kata, and discussing, "What could the guy on the receiving end do, to try to escape/stop/reverse this technique?" Even when I knew what the other guy was going to do, it was very hard to react fast enough to stop him in any way that didn't get me hurt in some way. I wasn't hurt the way the attacker had planned, mind you, but really, if you've got a sword stuck through your stomach, at the end of the day, are you really going to quibble about, "Well, you didn't intend to stab me there!"?

[P.J. Denyer]

I see. Thank you. It assumes, however, that they are successful, i.e. that they are sensing something.

Not really, they may believe they are sensing something but really it is irrelivent whether they are or not, it's just a sensible part of the protocol. The OP has stated that just as the abilty to sense the intention is not universal, the ability to project it is also limited to certain people. As such it is wise to allow the subject to verify that the person he is working with has said ability to his own satisfaction, otherwise the argument that he failed because his partner can't project is actually valid and the test is objectively flawed. Obviously had the proposer said they could detect an assult from anyone this would not be the case.

A similar situation is hypnosis, hypnotists claim that not everyone is succeptable, therefore it makes sense to allow them to select subjects they believe are for testing purposes.

[John Freestone]

It assumes, however, that they are successful, i.e. that they are sensing something.

Yes, it's possible that every claimed "success" is just a random occurrence that the sensei decided counts as a pass, but from watching the videos we've seen, it's clear to me that the sensei is actually deliberately telegraphing his attacks to those he wants to pass. So I'd say they are detecting something, just that the "something" is nothing mystical.

But yes, we'd need to do some trial runs to see if the ninja could do anything at all, under any circumstances, with a swordsman who isn't deliberately telegraphing his attack.Thank you, I believe I understand. And from the video first linked to here, I think you may well be right about the deliberate (or perhaps even self-deceptive, but clearly observable) telegraphing.

Not really, they may believe they are sensing something but really it is irrelivent whether they are or not, it's just a sensible part of the protocol. The OP has stated that just as the abilty to sense the intention is not universal, the ability to project it is also limited to certain people. As such it is wise to allow the subject to verify that the person he is working with has said ability to his own satisfaction, otherwise the argument that he failed because his partner can't project is actually valid and the test is objectively flawed. Obviously had the proposer said they could detect an assult from anyone this would not be the case.

A similar situation is hypnosis, hypnotists claim that not everyone is succeptable, therefore it makes sense to allow them to select subjects they believe are for testing purposes.Yes. I think I confused matters by using the word 'sensing' above, to refer to the student reacting to natural stimuli telegraphed somehow. It was a bad choice of word in the circumstances, and I think you read it as meaning sensing the claimed intention, i.e. 'supernatural' or 'as yet unknown to science'.

With enough time, I guess it would even be quite feasible to do tests with each of the possible sources of cueing at a time to ascertain how the telegraphing is happening. I for one would love to know.

[Cuddles]

I'd suggest that sensing the "intention to hurt you a lot" would be fundamentally similar.

Sure, but there are still two big problems with that. Firstly, it's still obvious that the students don't actually get hurt too badly any more than they get killed. If the sensei is genuinely trying to hurt them a lot, he's seriously incompetent. And if he's not, then obviously he didn't have that intention either. This is really a fundamental problem with the claim, since anyone who was actually any good at hitting people who actually had the intention to do serious harm would in fact manage to do serious harm. If the intentions being picked up are simply the intention to swing but not actually hurt anyone too badly, that's a more reasonable claim, but this then falls foul of the second problem:

Which is that it's not actually what is claimed. When discussing people's claims, it often needs to be pointed out that we have to address what they actually claim, not what we think they should claim. This is a particular problem in the Challenge section, but it applies in general discussions as well. If a person says that they can talk with dead people and find out what they died of, it doesn't matter that this obviously means they should be able to find the gender of the person and that that would be an easier test, if that's not what they claim, it's not what gets tested. In this case, the claim is that acomplished martial artists can sense the intention to kill. Not the intention to hurt. Not the intention to swing and pull it at the last moment. Kill. And this claim is trivially false, because they don't actually kill anyone.

As I say, the questions of where this kind of belief comes from, discussion of more plausible similar beliefs and possible ways of testing them all are interesting matters for discussion, but they won't change the fact that the original claim is still false. In addition, it would be impossible to test the original claim, since unless the testee could sense the intention 100% of the time (and be similarly successful in getting out the way) such a test would result in deaths.

[Horatius]

Sure, but there are still two big problems with that. Firstly, it's still obvious that the students don't actually get hurt too badly any more than they get killed. If the sensei is genuinely trying to hurt them a lot, he's seriously incompetent. And if he's not, then obviously he didn't have that intention either. This is really a fundamental problem with the claim, since anyone who was actually any good at hitting people who actually had the intention to do serious harm would in fact manage to do serious harm. If the intentions being picked up are simply the intention to swing but not actually hurt anyone too badly, that's a more reasonable claim, but this then falls foul of the second problem:

Which is that it's not actually what is claimed. When discussing people's claims, it often needs to be pointed out that we have to address what they actually claim, not what we think they should claim. This is a particular problem in the Challenge section, but it applies in general discussions as well. If a person says that they can talk with dead people and find out what they died of, it doesn't matter that this obviously means they should be able to find the gender of the person and that that would be an easier test, if that's not what they claim, it's not what gets tested. In this case, the claim is that acomplished martial artists can sense the intention to kill. Not the intention to hurt. Not the intention to swing and pull it at the last moment. Kill. And this claim is trivially false, because they don't actually kill anyone.

As I say, the questions of where this kind of belief comes from, discussion of more plausible similar beliefs and possible ways of testing them all are interesting matters for discussion, but they won't change the fact that the original claim is still false. In addition, it would be impossible to test the original claim, since unless the testee could sense the intention 100% of the time (and be similarly successful in getting out the way) such a test would result in deaths.



Well, sure, if you want to be all logical about it!

I'm just looking for an excuse to smack ninja in the head!

;)

[arthwollipot]

I'm just looking for an excuse to smack ninja in the head!Heh heh. That is a powerful motivator, indeed.

People have been discussing the "intention to kill" or the "intention to hurt you a lot". But what about simply the "intention to strike"? As I posted before, there is a very noticable difference between someone throwing a blow that is intended to hit, and one that is not. It all depends on the claim. If the claim is that the ninja can sense the hostility, then an intention to cause harm would be a necessary part of the test - which would mean that a failed result would cause real harm. Clearly this is not an option. But if the ninja's claim is that they can sense the intention to strike, this would be testable. It's a shame that the OP hasn't come back, or we'd be able to clear this up.

[Stout]

People have been discussing the "intention to kill" or the "intention to hurt you a lot". But what about simply the "intention to strike"?

Sure, if you want to be all logical about it;)

One thin that struck me as being beyond odd about this whole thing.

This was supposedly, historically, done with a "real" sword ??

So you're a ninja sensi whose spent years training a student and brought them up to a competent level. Why on earth would you even think about doing that student irreparable damage and negating all your hard work, not to mention destroying the relationship you've built up with that student in some stupid test.

Call me a wuss, but were I a 4th Dan ninja back in the old days, I'd be sick on testing day especially if I'd seen the fallout ( read corpses ) of those that had taken the test before me.

Might the "real" sword just be an urban legend ?

[arthwollipot]

Might the "real" sword just be an urban legend ?Translation - the whole test is a great big wank. No-one's disputing that.

But it would be interesting to find out whether the student is actually sensing the physical effects of the attack, or whether there indeed is some mystical "sixth sense" coming into play.

[Stout]

But it would be interesting to find out whether the student is actually sensing the physical effects of the attack, or whether there indeed is some mystical "sixth sense" coming into play.

Well, since the test is "supposed" to demonstrate the application of a sixth sense my guess is it's designed to give the student increased confidence by "telling" them that they do indeed have super powers.

Now, I've never seen any of these super powers demonstrated IRL. Hey, remember all the super powers stuff that *used* to revolve around fire walking ? Then along comes the Discovery Channel with their physics, and blows all that woo out of the water.

Suddenly, there's a drop in interest in fire walking. I haven't seen it advertised in years.

I'm going with the physical effects and all the attendant descriptions of those effects outlined in this thread with the magic being relegated to the realm of wishful thinking.

Maybe the ninja will take the tack that the reiki people did. There's forces at work here that science is outright "unable" to detect...you HAVE to believe.. or "you are the weakest link"

[Delvo]

This was supposedly, historically, done with a "real" sword ??No, at least not as such a routine for so many students. The current grandmaster and sole administrator of this test, Masaaki Hatsumi, is said to have had it done to him by the previous grandmaster, Tosutshiga Takamatsu, with a real sword, without warning. He was just sitting there eating or drinking something and suddenly felt the need to duck and roll, then realized what the reason was. So these tests are (at most) controlled re-enactments of one particular event, not the carrying on of a tradition.

[scottbaioisdead]

While in Iraq (This occured in December of 2004) I was in mosul we had just landed doing aircraft security from Qatar, i was in the chow hall eating with my partner and felt something strange, i told him we needed to go now, and i made him leave with me and we went back to our plane. by the time we got back to the flight line the chow hall blew up. someone had snuck pieces of explosives on base over a long period of time and put a bomb together in the chow hall....

so did i just get lucky? or is it safe to admit there is more to it than we know?

so you're Danny

[Autolite]

I have a question and I am trying to get some educated feedback as to what others may think on this matter.

I know that this person would most likely never agree to take the $1Mil dollar challenge, I am mostly looking to verify this ability.

I study Bujinkan Ninjutsu (Pretty much its old Ninja and Samurai martial arts)
There is nothing really all too mystical about it... and it really works.
But,
I order to receive a 5th Degree Blackbelt, we must take a test. The student kneels on the floor with eyes closed, the Grandmaster stands behind you and cuts down as fast as he can with a sword. The goal is to feel his intent to kill you and roll out of the way without getting cut.
It is not a trick, it is not timed out, you can't play with it and always get it right.
It has been performed outside and inside in different environments, sometimes he yells during the test, most of the time he does not.

So for skeptics out there, what could this be?
Or would you agree that this really is a 6th Sense or not?

If you would like to view some of these tests just search on Youtube for Bujinkan (godan / 5th Dan / Sakki tests) and you will be able to see some of these tests that have been performed.

Actually, I too have a "sixth sense" and it tells me to avoid participation in idiotic rituals. Go figure...:rolleyes: