Bush Pardon thread

[gdnp]

The pardons that Bill Clinton handed out on his last day in office were certainly one of the low points of his presidency, the Mark Rich pardon being the most notorious. So what do people think? Can George W. Bush outdo Clinton? What high profile people will be on Bush's pardon list?

Scooter Libby had his sentence commuted. I would not be surprised to see a full pardon.

I would also not be surprised if Bush preemptively pardoned Cheney, Rumsfeld, and those in the White House and Justice department responsibly for the torture memo. I doubt that the Democrats would go after them, but Bush may wish to remain doubly sure. It seems he can even preemptively pardon himself. (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Fox_analyst_Bush_cant_issue_blanket_1118.html)

Any other high profile political figures? Ted Stevens?

Here is Newsweek's (http://www.newsweek.com/id/169180) take on the topic.

I'm guessing that based on his tenure as Texas governor that there won't be any death row inmates on the list.

William Ayers, perhaps?

[Oliver]

Could you explain why a pardon matters? - I mean in a legal sense?
Is this a way to avoid persecution after leaving office?

[gdnp]

Once someone is pardoned their crimes are wiped off the books. If they have been convicted they are released. If they have not been tried they cannot be tried on those charges. If they have served their term they have their right to vote restored: in many states convicted felons cannot vote, even after release.

[moon1969]

Duke Cunningham is seeking a presidential pardon. If Bush pardons Duke Cunningham he will be just like Bill Clinton who pardoned Marc Rich. Bush should not pardon Duke Cunningham or Conrad Black.

[moon1969]

Michael Milken is seeking pardon but so is John Walker Lindh. :D Edwin Edwards is also seeking a presidential pardon.

[TragicMonkey]

I thought a pardon couldn't be issued unless and until the recipient were convicted of a crime?

[ktesibios]

I thought a pardon couldn't be issued unless and until the recipient were convicted of a crime?

If you are old enough you may remember President Ford pardoning Richard Nixon immediaely after taking office, at a time when Nixon had not been convicted of nor even indicted for any crime. It didn't add any luster to Ford's presidency but it was apparently legal and effective.

[davefoc]

Duke Cunningham is seeking a presidential pardon. If Bush pardons Duke Cunningham he will be just like Bill Clinton who pardoned Marc Rich. Bush should not pardon Duke Cunningham or Conrad Black.

Michael Milken is seeking pardon but so is John Walker Lindh. :D Edwin Edwards is also seeking a presidential pardon.

What's more likely a pardon for Duke Cunningham or John Walker Lindh?

Both seem like remote possibilities but a pardon for John Walker Lindh might be a real act of compassion. The guy seems to have gotten caught up in a mess that wasn't completely of his own choosing.

And what about the Border guards that were convicted in that shooting incident involving a Mexican drug dealer? What are their chances? Even if you accept that they acted inappropriately it seems like their sentence was tough given what they did.

[Dragoonster]

The ability for governors and presidents to pardon/commute has always struck me as bizarre and completely ridiculous.

Scooter Libby had his sentence commuted. I would not be surprised to see a full pardon.

Yeah, this seems very likely. And doubly shameful.

I wish I could say I was surprised to see Marion Jones on the Newsweek list. Really hope she isn't pardoned, not with her public defense of doing anything wrong prior to being proven to have done things wrong. She's struck me as very disingenuous since then too.

[quarky]

Let he who is without pardon-worthy sins be the first to cast stones at the un-pardonable?

[Kevin_Lowe]

Let he who is without pardon-worthy sins be the first to cast stones at the un-pardonable?

Australia seems to get along just fine without our head of government to pardoning a pile of criminal mates every four to eight years just before they leave office.

I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of how many recipients of the last-minute Presidential pardon were actually victims of a miscarriage of justice, and how many were just well-connected crooks.

[gumboot]

Australia seems to get along just fine without our head of government to pardoning a pile of criminal mates every four to eight years just before they leave office..


Maybe that's because your Head of State only leaves office every fifty years or so, and does so in a box? :D

Still when Good Queen Bess goes the way of the Pearly Staircase perhaps her Will will include an extensive list of pardons for her various realms.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Maybe that's because your Head of State only leaves office every fifty years or so, and does so in a box? :D

Still when Good Queen Bess goes the way of the Pearly Staircase perhaps her Will will include an extensive list of pardons for her various realms.

I wrote "head of government" rather than "Head of State" for a reason.

[gdnp]

I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of how many recipients of the last-minute Presidential pardon were actually victims of a miscarriage of justice, and how many were just well-connected crooks.

The president has essentially unlimited authority in granting pardons. Fortunately, it has not been abused too terribly.

Ideally someone guilty of a miscarriage of justice should have their sentence overturned. Pardons should be for guilty people who were sentenced unduly harshly or who have lived such an exemplary life that they have somehow redeemed themselves. I suppose you could also argue for those in extenuating circumstances: those who although technically guilty were serving some greater good, like those engaged in civil disobedience.

It is possible that some day a president opposed to the death penalty could commute the death sentences of all prisoners on death row to life imprisonment. A few years ago the Illinois governor did.

[Beerina]

It seems he can even preemptively pardon himself. (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Fox_analyst_Bush_cant_issue_blanket_1118.html)

Well the Constitution puts no limits on who he can pardon -- but you can bet the first president to pardon himself will cause an amendment preventing that.

[gdnp]

Well the Constitution puts no limits on who he can pardon -- but you can bet the first president to pardon himself will cause an amendment preventing that.

I think that is only the most egregious abuse that might induce an amendment. I think it is something of an anachronism, at least in giving the president absolute power with no checks. As long as the abuses do not exceed the Marc Rich level I doubt they will go to the trouble to modify it. Were Bush to try to pardon all of those involved with torture and other war crimes, we might see an attempt, but as this would be seen as a partisan issue I doubt there would be sufficient consensus to amend the constitution.

I guess pardons come in the last week because the only recourse available is impeachment. ;)

[davefoc]

The president has essentially unlimited authority in granting pardons. Fortunately, it has not been abused too terribly.


Can a president grant a pardon for a state crime?

On the Marc Rich pardon:
It just recently came up that the prime minister of Israel made a special request to the Clinton administration for Marc Rich's pardon. Apparently Marc Rich is an orthodox Jew although I'm not sure how he got the prime minister of Israel to make the request. I was surprised that H. Clinton wasn't hit with more questions about Bill Clinton's pardons. I recently read through a list. A lot of them looked very shady. An interesting question for H. Clinton would have been how she felt about the pardons and whether she would consider it an appropriate use of presidential pardon power to make similar pardons if she were president.

On how the US president ended up with this power:
Do you suppose the story in the new testament about the possible pardon of Jesus served as an inspiration for the founders to give that power to the US president?

The Libby Commutation:
Before the Libby commutation, I hadn't realized how the pardon powers of the US could be used as part of a process that codified a US president's ability to break the law. In that case, it is very likely that Libby refused to testify about details of the case that pointed to Cheney or even Bush because he was made aware that Bush would act to prevent him from going to jail in the event of a conviction. I think the Bush presidency has made clear is that as a practical matter the US president can engage in fairly lawless behavior without much risk and the presidential pardon power seems to be a useful tool for the president to make that so.

ETA: If somebody hasn't seen it this is a good article on the prospects of various miscreants for pardons:
http://www.slate.com/id/2204984/

[CptColumbo]

IMO Sen. Stevens will be pardoned.

[gumboot]

I wrote "head of government" rather than "Head of State" for a reason.


I doubt the US "Head of Government" (that would be Dick Cheney or Steny Hoyer) can issue pardons any more than the Australia Head of Government can issue pardons. Pardons are traditionally only something the Head of State can issue.

[Puppycow]

Bush's pardons 14 individuals (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27895909/).
Includes a famous hip-hop star:

Bush also commuted the prison sentences of John Edward Forte of North Brunswick, N.J., and James Russell Harris of Detroit, Mich. Both were convicted of cocaine offenses.

Forte, a well-known hip hop artist, worked with the Fugees, Wyclef Jean and Herbie Hancock.

Pardon orders never give a reason, but NBC News' Pete Williams reported that in Forte's case, it is likely the mandatory minimum sentences required in drug cases. Here's how fans of Forte's put it on a Web site dedicated to him:

"John Forte's life was forever changed in July of 2000. He agreed to transport a package, and in turn was arrested on a drug trafficking charge. He did not accept the plea bargain offered him, as he maintained that he was innocent of the charges against him.

"In 2001, John Forté stood trial in a Texas court and was convicted of this non-violent crime. It was his first offense. Due to the outdated mandatory minimum sentencing laws currently in place, he received the only prison term available for the judge to hand down — 14 years in a federal penitentiary. John is not eligible to be released until he is at least 38 years old."
Kind of highlights how draconian the war on drugs really is. I wonder if being famous helped?

Not on the pardon list is Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, who was convicted in 2007 of obstruction of justice and perjury during an investigation into the leaking of the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame. Bush commuted Libby's 30-month prison sentence.

[tomwaits]

Bush will save his controversial pardons for the last day in office. Don't worry.

[ZirconBlue]

I think it is something of an anachronism, at least in giving the president absolute power with no checks.

I always saw the Presidential Pardon as sort of a last check against the Judiciary. I'm not sure what the original intent was, though.

[linusrichard]

I doubt the US "Head of Government" (that would be Dick Cheney or Steny Hoyer) can issue pardons any more than the Australia Head of Government can issue pardons. Pardons are traditionally only something the Head of State can issue.

The US president is both Head of Government and Head of State. But your point is still right - when the president pardons people, he's able to do so in a sense because he's Head of State, not because he's Head of Government. So it wouldn't make sense to compare our Head of Government pardoning people with Australia's Head of Government pardoning people, because our Head of Government is Head of State, while Australia's is not.

[daredelvis]

Can a president grant a pardon for a state crime?

On the Marc Rich pardon:
It just recently came up that the prime minister of Israel made a special request to the Clinton administration for Marc Rich's pardon. Apparently Marc Rich is an orthodox Jew although I'm not sure how he got the prime minister of Israel to make the request. I was surprised that H. Clinton wasn't hit with more questions about Bill Clinton's pardons. I recently read through a list. A lot of them looked very shady. An interesting question for H. Clinton would have been how she felt about the pardons and whether she would consider it an appropriate use of presidential pardon power to make similar pardons if she were president.


http://www.slate.com/id/2204984/
Clinton's pardons were a real stain on his presidency IMHO. Living in Arizona at the time I was outraged at the Fife Symington pardon. It took me many years to forgive him for that one. Of course living through the Bush presidency accelerated the process.

Daredelvis

[linusrichard]

Can a president grant a pardon for a state crime?


No.

[PhantomWolf]

Why do they never pardon the ones that deserve pardons like Troy Anthony Davis (http://www.troyanthonydavis.org/)?

[davefoc]

Why do they never pardon the ones that deserve pardons like Troy Anthony Davis (http://www.troyanthonydavis.org/)?

I just read through the Wikipedia article on this. I had never heard of the guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Anthony_Davis

It sounds like the case for innocence is marginally more legitimate than some of these deals. Although it sounds like Mr. Davis wasn't all that outstanding of a citizen before this murder. Apparently he had shot somebody else earlier in the day, but the case against him sounds a little sketchy on the actual murder.

I didn't look at all at PhantomWolf's link. I don't see much probative value in that kind of thing. I suspect every murderer that manages to get a little publicity for his case has a web site full of the protestations about his innocence from the true believers.

Further confounding these kind of cases is my sense that a lot of the well known people that get involved are anti death penalty proponents and they seem to be willing to flat out lie if they think it's going to keep somebody from being executed.

As a practical matter, I don't think Bush could pardon him. It sounds like he was convicted of a state crime and according to linusrichard (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=16416) above Bush can not pardon people for state crimes.

But what do you think PhantomWolf? Is there some special reason that you singled this guy out? What do you think the chances are that he is innocent of the crime that he was convicted of?

[PhantomWolf]

I think the chances are pretty high. Of the 9 non-police witnesses, 7 have changed their statements to say that they either didn't see the shooter of that that the shooter was another person, that other person is one of the remaining 2 witnesses that claim Troy did it. About six other people who didn't see the shooting have come forward to say that that "wittness" told them that he did it. There was no physical evidence that Troy did it, no weapon, only the wittnesses who now are saying that they were pressured into claiming Troy did it. One of the witnesses whose statment was used in trial is illiterate and claims that he wasn't even shown the statement the police used, nor was it true to what he told them.

On top of that his rights to appeal have been pretty much been violated. He never had a lawyer on his appeal for most of the time it was supposed to be being prepared, and the community center that was finally assigned the case had just 2 laywers working on 80 cases and they never met with him, nor argued his innocence. Ther case has been one very long stuff up from go to woe, but due to legal technicalities and misrepresentation, he's repeatedly been denied the one thing every person should be allowed to have, a fair trial.

[WildCat]

In related news, Sen. Dick Durbin is lobbying Bush to pardon former Illinois Governor George Ryan.

I hope Bush doesn't do this. Ryan is only 1 year into a 6 year sentence, he should serve the entire sentence as an example to other Illinois politicians who are thoroughly corrupt, including our current governor who I'm guessing will be facing his own criminal charges in due time.

One of the crimes Ryan was convicted of was allowing commercial drivers licences to be bought for campaign contributions during his tenure as Illinois Secretary of State. One of these was bought by an illegal immigrant who couldn't even speak English, and a part fell off the poorly maintained truck he was driving which caused a mini-van to burst into flames on the highway, incinerating 6 children.

No way, no how should Bush pardon Ryan. Not until he can bring back to life those 6 children who died because of his greed and corruption.

[WildCat]

Bush will save his controversial pardons for the last day in office. Don't worry.
Apparently not.

[Alferd_Packer]

No pardon for George Ryan.

[Puppycow]

Has he pardoned anyone? Is there still time?

[WildCat]

No pardon for George Ryan.
Or Blago.

[Oliver]

Has he pardoned anyone? Is there still time?


I don't know if there is a legal chance to pardon anyone else from now on, but Bush did pardon these guys some hours ago:

(http://search.cnn.com/arProcessing.jsp?sType=news&docID=/www/xml/cnn//2009/01/19/POLITICS_bush.commute.xml&dest=http://cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/19/bush.commute/index.html?iref=newssearch&qry=pardon)Bush commutes sentences of former Border Patrol agents (http://search.cnn.com/arProcessing.jsp?sType=news&docID=/www/xml/cnn//2009/01/19/POLITICS_bush.commute.xml&dest=http://cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/19/bush.commute/index.html?iref=newssearch&qry=pardon) updated 9 hours, 42 minutes ago
On his final full day in office, President Bush issued commutations for two former U.S. Border Patrol agents convicted in 2006 of shooting and wounding an unarmed illegal immigrant -- suspected of drug smuggling at the time -- and then covering it up.

[Texas]

I don't know if there is a legal chance to pardon anyone else from now on, but Bush did pardon these guys some hours ago:

[URL="http://search.cnn.com/arProcessing.jsp?sType=news&docID=/www/xml/cnn//2009/01/19/POLITICS_bush.commute.xml&dest=http://cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/19/bush.commute/index.html?iref=newssearch&qry=pardon"]That was not a pardon. He just commuted the rest of the jail sentences. Clinton pardoned 140 people on his last day Bush pardoned no one.

[Oliver]

That was not a pardon. He just commuted the rest of the jail sentences. Clinton pardoned 140 people on his last day Bush pardoned no one.


My bad, I thought it's the same thing from a legal point of view about the Presidents power to intervene in legal cases.

[Texas]

My bad, I thought it's the same thing from a legal point of view about the Presidents power to intervene in legal cases.

No a pardon completely voids the conviction and erases the crime from the books. A commutation only shortens the original sentence but the person still carries a felony conviction on their record.

[Puppycow]

No a pardon completely voids the conviction and erases the crime from the books. A commutation only shortens the original sentence but the person still carries a felony conviction on their record.

And presumably loses the right to vote and other rights that convicted felons lose? Not nearly as generous as a pardon.

[Oliver]

No a pardon completely voids the conviction and erases the crime from the books. A commutation only shortens the original sentence but the person still carries a felony conviction on their record.


Which sounds like a fair choice for the commutation based on the case in question. But is there any way for Bush to pardon someone in the final hours till the inauguration? It seems to be quite late for any further pardon...

[WildCat]

And presumably loses the right to vote and other rights that convicted felons lose?
Only in certain states.

[Puppycow]

I think at least in theory he could issue pardons up until the moment Obama is actually sworn in.

[Oliver]

I think at least in theory he could issue pardons up until the moment Obama is actually sworn in.


Well, I doubt that he will do so - after all, he's a straight decider, not someone who waits for the last second to act ... :p

[Texas]

I think at least in theory he could issue pardons up until the moment Obama is actually sworn in. He can but he put out a statement today that he was done.
I thought he would issue some kind of blanket pardon for intelligence agents involved in interrogations but knowing him it could be that he would welcome the idea of congress making the incredible mistake of trying to prosecute him or the agents.

[gdnp]

He can but he put out a statement today that he was done.
I thought he would issue some kind of blanket pardon for intelligence agents involved in interrogations but knowing him it could be that he would welcome the idea of congress making the incredible mistake of trying to prosecute him or the agents.

Last I heard it was the justice department that prosecuted people.

[Texas]

Last I heard it was the justice department that prosecuted people.Then why did Pelosi say that SHE was open to prosecution? The Congress can refer cases to the DOJ for prosecution and Holder stated that he would investigate if asked to in his confirmation hearing.
No matter the venue I think Bush would relish the chance to face them.

[gdnp]

Then why did Pelosi say that SHE was open to prosecution? The Congress can refer cases to the DOJ for prosecution and Holder stated that he would investigate if asked to in his confirmation hearing.
No matter the venue I think Bush would relish the chance to face them.

Congress can investigate all they want. They can recommend all they want. Only the justice department, which is part of the executive branch, can prosecute, and the judiciary rules. It's this thing called the "separation of powers".

[maxpower1227]

Bush will save his controversial pardons for the last day in office. Don't worry.

Yesterday the Freepers were simultaneously dancing in the streets over Ramos and Compean having their sentences commuted, and cursing Bush for not pardoning them fully. Gotta love those morons.