Is The End Nigh?

[gumboot]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.

Is the end, indeed, nigh? Most societies collapse, at some point. Put under pressure by war, environmental damage, climate change, resource depletion, and over population, the economy collapses, mass panic ensues, and the very fabric of society disintegrates into civil war, anarchy and cannibalism.

I think Western Society is very robust, and able to handle a lot of things. Any of the many challenges facing us now, we could handle with ease. But all of them at once? Can we manage that?

I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.

[JoeyDonuts]

Meh. Screw it. Let the cephalapods have it for a few thousand years.

[Dragoonster]

I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.

Western Society may slow-burn more to parity with non-Western, but it's not going to be anything major imo, or anything to worry about.

The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Maybe I'm just a misanthrope but the bolded ones are the only things that really concern me. Human society can rebound from anything beyond literal extinction, and extremely quickly on a geologic timescale. It's faced inter-species troubles pretty often over the millenia and hasn't slowed down much. The alterations to the Earth humans are carrying out are much more severe, acute, and take much longer to rebound if they can at all.

Also--I'm skeptical whether anything even close to a utopia is possible. It seems our nature to invent conflict even when not necessary, as a goal of group identity or hierarchial stratification. If free-energy and Star Trek "replicators" were invented tomorrow (able to give anyone anything at no cost, let's say), I think there'd still be war, genocide, the third-world, religious strife, terrorism, economic classes, etc. Simply because many people would still desire the power to be able to dole the energy and stuff out only to those who they feel are worthy of it. And such people would war with others for sole possession of that power.

[SezMe]

I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.
Me too. I cannot see a happy scenario where we "all get along". That said, I do not see a crises that crystallizes the whole enchillda but rather an increasing number of local crises (ie, Katrina in the USA). The challenge for humanity will be its ability to see these local disasters as something more than just local problems.

[PhantomWolf]

Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Someone beat you to it.

Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnnie Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy
Richard Nixon
Studebaker
television
North Korea
South Korea
Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs
H-Bomb
Sugar Ray
Panmunjom
Brando
"The King and I"
"The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower
vaccine
England's got a new queen
Marciano
Liberace
Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin
Malenkov
Nasser
Prokofiev
Rockefeller
Campanella
Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn
Juan Peron
Toscanini
dacron
Dien Bien Phu
"Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein
James Dean
Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett
"Peter Pan"
Elvis Presley
Disneyland
Bardot
Budapest
Alabama
Khrushchev
Princess Grace
"Peyton Place"
trouble in the Suez
Little Rock
Pasternak
Mickey Mantle
Kerouac
Sputnik
Chou En-Lai
"Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon
Charles de Gaulle
California baseball
Starkweather
homicide
children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly
"Ben-Hur"
space monkey
Mafia
hula hoops
Castro
Edsel is a no go
U2
Syngman Rhee
payola
Kennedy
Chubby Checker
"Psycho"
Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway
Eichmann
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan
Berlin
Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia"
British Beatlemania
Ole Miss
John Glenn
Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul
Malcolm X
British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say
Birth control
Ho Chi Minh
Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot
Woodstock
Watergate
punk rock
Begin
Reagan
Palestine
terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran
Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune"
Sally Ride
heavy metal
suicide
Foreign debts
homeless vets
AIDS
Crack
Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore
China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars

[ConspiRaider]

We'll manage.

There won't be an "end" to humanity this century. We humans have the dubious honor of quick-extincting various species on the planet, but for ourselves? Nature gets to do that, perched as we are atop the food chain. That'd be the loooonnnnggggg, slowwwwww and gradual demise, an oldie but a goodie from Nature. That is, if we don't figure out how to change the game before Nature starts the clock running on us.

However, this century we'll still be hanging around. It's going to be rough at times, because we haven't yet designed the world to effect the successful handling of global issues. Culture, tradition, religion, language, greed, fear, mistrust, superstition and our dogged insistence on "owning" specific slivers of the Earth's crust are some of the major obstacles.

The polar ice cap is in jeopardy, could melt completely in the summer within 10 years or less. Tough to predict. Except our reaction. Countries are scrambling to lay "claim" to vast oil and mineral and shipping rights once things unfreeze northwards. That's us. Exploit a change for pure profit.

What we lack are referees in the Greed and Grab Game. Right now we're individual teams, making up our own rules of acquisition and exploitation. One day when our technology is really out of whack with our ability to control and restrain it: We could be completely done in by our shortsightedness. But we're not there. Not yet knowledgeable enough to off ourselves technologically. I hope the referees show up before that Final Game gun goes off.

[gumboot]

I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.

[gumboot]

Someone beat you to it.


Talks of apocalyptic doom are hardly unique.

[leonAzul]

Someone beat you to it.

Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnnie Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy
Richard Nixon
Studebaker
television
North Korea
South Korea
Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs
H-Bomb
Sugar Ray
Panmunjom
Brando
"The King and I"
"The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower
vaccine
England's got a new queen
Marciano
Liberace
Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin
Malenkov
Nasser
Prokofiev
Rockefeller
Campanella
Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn
Juan Peron
Toscanini
dacron
Dien Bien Phu
"Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein
James Dean
Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett
"Peter Pan"
Elvis Presley
Disneyland
Bardot
Budapest
Alabama
Khrushchev
Princess Grace
"Peyton Place"
trouble in the Suez
Little Rock
Pasternak
Mickey Mantle
Kerouac
Sputnik
Chou En-Lai
"Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon
Charles de Gaulle
California baseball
Starkweather
homicide
children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly
"Ben-Hur"
space monkey
Mafia
hula hoops
Castro
Edsel is a no go
U2
Syngman Rhee
payola
Kennedy
Chubby Checker
"Psycho"
Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway
Eichmann
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan
Berlin
Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia"
British Beatlemania
Ole Miss
John Glenn
Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul
Malcolm X
British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say
Birth control
Ho Chi Minh
Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot
Woodstock
Watergate
punk rock
Begin
Reagan
Palestine
terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran
Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune"
Sally Ride
heavy metal
suicide
Foreign debts
homeless vets
AIDS
Crack
Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore
China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars

Heh, heh, no, we didn't start the fire. The question is, will it be a slow burn, a conflagration, or another bigger bang?

[Darat]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.

...snip...

Is that not just because of what the media focuses on and how they present their stories?

Most of what you list would seem to have improved over any significant time period. Others such as "obesity" and "diabetes" are indications that people are living longer, have more food and have access to better treatments because they are alive to suffer the problems caused by being obese or diabetic rather than dead from starvation or malnourishment!

[Darth Rotor]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.
I feel fine. ;) The elements that most concern me were well summarized by Dragoonster.
Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.
Roman empire fell. Humans are still among us. The Khan's great empire broke up. Here we remain.
Is the end, indeed, nigh?
The sheriff is near.
Most societies collapse, at some point. Put under pressure by war, environmental damage, climate change, resource depletion, and over population, the economy collapses, mass panic ensues, and the very fabric of society disintegrates into civil war, anarchy and cannibalism.
Huh?
I think Western Society is very robust, and able to handle a lot of things. Any of the many challenges facing us now, we could handle with ease. But all of them at once? Can we manage that?
Who is this "we" Kemo Sabe? "Western Society" has infiltrated the other "societies," and infected most of them. If "the West" falls residual elements of the "Society" will live on, as adapted by other "societies" that have been so infected. Ideas die hard.
I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.
If you keep worrying like that, you'll get a lot of gray hair. :cool: Now, here's something for you to ponder. Somewhere between 1 and 10 percent of Chinese in China are Christian (of some sort or another) ... or so I hear. If that element of Western Society spreads there, does that worry you less, or more? If, as an underground religion, as it began in the Roman Empire, it eventually percolates up to become an official state institution in China, would that worry you less, or more?

DR

[leonAzul]

Is the end, indeed, nigh?



"The future's uncertain and the end is always near.
Let it roll…"

[applecorped]

Someone beat you to it.

Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnnie Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy
Richard Nixon
Studebaker
television
North Korea
South Korea
Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs
H-Bomb
Sugar Ray
Panmunjom
Brando
"The King and I"
"The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower
vaccine
England's got a new queen
Marciano
Liberace
Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin
Malenkov
Nasser
Prokofiev
Rockefeller
Campanella
Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn
Juan Peron
Toscanini
dacron
Dien Bien Phu
"Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein
James Dean
Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett
"Peter Pan"
Elvis Presley
Disneyland
Bardot
Budapest
Alabama
Khrushchev
Princess Grace
"Peyton Place"
trouble in the Suez
Little Rock
Pasternak
Mickey Mantle
Kerouac
Sputnik
Chou En-Lai
"Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon
Charles de Gaulle
California baseball
Starkweather
homicide
children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly
"Ben-Hur"
space monkey
Mafia
hula hoops
Castro
Edsel is a no go
U2
Syngman Rhee
payola
Kennedy
Chubby Checker
"Psycho"
Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway
Eichmann
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan
Berlin
Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia"
British Beatlemania
Ole Miss
John Glenn
Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul
Malcolm X
British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say
Birth control
Ho Chi Minh
Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot
Woodstock
Watergate
punk rock
Begin
Reagan
Palestine
terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran
Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune"
Sally Ride
heavy metal
suicide
Foreign debts
homeless vets
AIDS
Crack
Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore
China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars

So we did start the fire! I knew it!

[Darth Rotor]

"The future's uncertain and the end is always near.
Let it roll…"

No one here get's out alive. ;)

[Kittyclaws]

IMO it may feel like disaster is just around the corner, but some of that is the media blowing fear up our skirts. Fearful people are easily manipulated (Patriot Act).

Western civilization, ie: rules of law, freedoms outlined in many nations' founding documents, advancement of science, etc., is not going to disappear unless we throw it away. Even then, that would probably only happen on a nation by nation basis. Up until a few weeks ago, I'd've said the US would be the first ones over the cliff until I saw the election results. :)

Change is unsettling. Note recent research on how uncertain circumstances turn more people to magical thinking and religious belief. Just relax and enjoy the ride. If you don't like what's happening, work to change what you can.

[Undesired Walrus]

Compared to the days of the Russian Revolution and Hitler, its a relatively quiet time in history isn't it?

[LarianLeQuella]

With the results of the current US election, I feel a bit more optimistic about "Western Civilization" addressing these issues in a much more responsible manner. Just my 2 coppers on the subject.

[leonAzul]

I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.

So long as there are competent people concerned about the issues you have raised, there is little to fear in the way of total anarchy. Too many people have too much invested--emotionally as well as financially--to see it disappear all together.

[Gurdur]

Huh?


Wanna come to a BBQ? :D

[gumboot]

Is that not just because of what the media focuses on and how they present their stories?

Good question... but I'm not convinced. Some of these really are major problems (or at least I think they are) and at least one is a first in human history - global climate change. The last major climate change we had to deal with (the Little Ice Age) wiped out a good chunk of the world's population and had a devastating effect on society that has echoed through the centuries. A number of micro-societies were totally wiped out by it (like the Norse in Greenland).

Others, like the financial crisis, are directly affected by media reporting - it may be that the media are exaggerating the depth of the crisis, but purely by reporting it that way they could actually cause things to get that bad.



Most of what you list would seem to have improved over any significant time period.

I wouldn't say "most" - as far as I can tell historically the only ones that have been worse in the past are the level of violence in society, radical religion, piracy (that was added as a joke anyway) and maybe economics. Most of the others like resource depletion, aging populations, lower birth rates and pressure from the developing world are very much new and increasing problems. Others like "war" have become far worse purely because of the capability for destruction has increased enormously.


Others such as "obesity" and "diabetes" are indications that people are living longer, have more food and have access to better treatments because they are alive to suffer the problems caused by being obese or diabetic rather than dead from starvation or malnourishment!

I'm not sure I can entirely agree, although I see your point. Obesity and diabetes aren't just problems with the old though, they're major issues with the very young. Some of these problems have certainly existed in the past, of course, but that's kind of why I mentioned them - they're problems that have caused other societies to collapse. They're mostly not problems that have been major issues for western civilisation.

[gumboot]

Roman empire fell. Humans are still among us. The Khan's great empire broke up. Here we remain.

Like I said, it's our particular society that I'm worried about, not the species.


Huh?

Cannibalism seems to be a very common feature when societies collapse. I see no reason why a collapsed western society would be any different.


Who is this "we" Kemo Sabe? "Western Society" has infiltrated the other "societies," and infected most of them. If "the West" falls residual elements of the "Society" will live on, as adapted by other "societies" that have been so infected. Ideas die hard.

Certainly some will. That doesn't give me much comfort.


Now, here's something for you to ponder. Somewhere between 1 and 10 percent of Chinese in China are Christian (of some sort or another) ... or so I hear. If that element of Western Society spreads there, does that worry you less, or more? If, as an underground religion, as it began in the Roman Empire, it eventually percolates up to become an official state institution in China, would that worry you less, or more?

I do not consider Christianity to be a fundamental element of Western Civilisation. The primary characteristics, as I see them, are:

-Democracy
-Liberalism
-The Rule of Law
-Free Market Economy
-Rationalism/Science

I am not sure if I'm using the technically correct term for each of the concepts, so I'd be happy to clarify what I mean by each if you wish.

[gumboot]

Compared to the days of the Russian Revolution and Hitler, its a relatively quiet time in history isn't it?


Well if Jared Diamond's book on social collapse taught me anything it's that social collapses seldom happen rapidly (at least relative to individual people living in them). You're talking a process of decades if not centuries. For all we know historians looking back at our time from the distant future may mark the turmoil of the early 20th Century as the beginning of the end.

When did the society on Easter Island start to collapse? Was it when last of the fertile soil was blown away and there was nowhere left to plant crops? Was it when the last trees were cut down, paving the way for soil erosion? Or did it start long before that? Evidence suggests things were already pretty desperate long before the trees were all cut down. But did the people living at the time realise their society was on the brink of annihilation? I doubt it.

[Beerina]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.

If all the ice at the polar caps was already melted, and the environment was changing such that much of the northern latitudes were going to freeze over solid, or have a freezing down to mid-Kentucky or so, plus or minus, during a new season, let's call it "Winter", well, that would be far more horiffic than the current direction, wouldn't it?

Moving away from the coasts over the course of a few hundred hears isn't much of a hurdle for humanity.


Species extinction

We are resurrecting species even as we talk. The mammoth and mastadon shall walk again, and not too many years from now.

Dodo, saber-toothed tiger, and others soon after, I'm sure. Maybe those pigmy humans who were on that island that they just discovered (similar to the tiny mammoths on a different one.) Then maybe some Neanderthal or other species of Homo-xxx.

[Undesired Walrus]

With the comical observation of this thread and 'Does your penis have a mind of its own?' underneath it, one could be led to believe Gumboot is invisioning a troubling future in which male penises rule the planet, dragging the useless corpse of their Human component around with them like a dead siamese twin.

I for one, welcome our Penis overlords.

[gumboot]

Moving away from the coasts over the course of a few hundred hears isn't much of a hurdle for humanity.


I'm not sure that's the biggest danger. Increased global temperatures means a reduction in arable land. Combine that with soil erosion and nutrient leaching, and a lot of us will be starving to death.

[gumboot]

With the comical observation of this thread and 'Does your penis have a mind of its own?' underneath it, one could be led to believe Gumboot is invisioning a troubling future in which male penises rule the planet, dragging the useless corpse of their Human component around with them like a dead siamese twin.


:D

[Undesired Walrus]

Their armies will bring a whole new meaning to the phrase 'standing to attention'.

[ConspiRaider]

I'm not sure that's the biggest danger. Increased global temperatures means a reduction in arable land. Combine that with soil erosion and nutrient leaching, and a lot of us will be starving to death.
Or there could be an increase/decrease in arable land.

Greenland, for example. If the ice goes - that is a huge slice of assumed arable land. Same for areas of Alaska, Yukon Territory, Northwest Territory, Nunavut, Siberia and so forth.

Should global warming increase its pace: What shall cause the pain and suffering and death for some of the human race is the transition, the adjustments to new topography and weather patterns. We won't move quickly enough to ensure 100% survival. And we'll be stepping on each other's toes - land, actually. And we all know how sacred, how dear, we hold specific slivers of the Earth's crust. Defend!!! Crush the invaders!!! Fight for the Fatherland, the Motherland!!!

[BenBurch]

Last laugh may come with famine, as all the obese people make it through...

[Darth Rotor]

Wanna come to a BBQ? :D

Oh, so you want to have me over for dinner? :jaw-dropp

[gumboot]

Or there could be an increase/decrease in arable land.

Greenland, for example. If the ice goes - that is a huge slice of assumed arable land.

The problem there is "assumed". The Norse already tried to plant crops on Greenland, during the Medieval Warm Period. Didn't work out so well.


Same for areas of Alaska, Yukon Territory, Northwest Territory, Nunavut, Siberia and so forth.

If you actually look at a map of the earth, there's very little land in the permafrost. Not surprising really - the earth is a sphere. We'll lose a lot more land than we gain. Australia would be toast, for starters - it's already exceedingly marginal.


Should global warming increase its pace: What shall cause the pain and suffering and death for some of the human race is the transition, the adjustments to new topography and weather patterns. We won't move quickly enough to ensure 100% survival. And we'll be stepping on each other's toes - land, actually. And we all know how sacred, how dear, we hold specific slivers of the Earth's crust. Defend!!! Crush the invaders!!! Fight for the Fatherland, the Motherland!!!

Exactly. As increasing pressure is put on us for resources, we're going to rip each other apart.

[Darth Rotor]

Last laugh may come with famine, as all the obese people make it through...
See gumboot's and Gurdur's posts: the obese are being fattened for the slaughter.

Puts the term 'corn fed woman' in a whole new perspective.

Hmmm, I had two corndogs for breakfast. (I get them 2/99 cents at the local gas station/coffee shop. Best food deal in town.) Maybe I ought to reconsider, with an eye to how sweet I am making myself to a cannibal. :jaw-dropp

DR

[ConspiRaider]

I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.
10-roger. Habit of mine - I like to step as far back as possible when viewing these kinds of issues and stresses.

What will be the biggest problem this century, though, and not just for Western civilization but all civilizations, is our stubborn, perhaps inate, sense of territoriality. That deep-rooted concept will be severely tested. We'll fail some of those tests, undoubtedly. You just know that's coming. We love sinking long stakes into areas from tiny to gargantuan, and refusing to budge.

We've fought horrific, destructive, massive and bloody wars over territory, and that's when there were far fewer people and far more areas of arable but uninhabited land. Now the situation is reversed: 7 billion people, less available land, hundreds of nations and cultures bound and determined to survive and carry forth their cultures and traditions - no matter what the cost.

It'd be better if we didn't tie so much meaning to land and the items, cultural and material, we deposit upon that land. We'd perhaps fare better if we were more mobile-minded, nomadic by nature. Way way way off into the future, I can envision ACTUAL fully self-contained mobile homes that can get airborne. Kind of like living in your car - except it's bigger and has running water. You pick up and go. You escape the temporary floods, the fires, the earthquakes, the tornadoes, the droughts, the whatevers. You come back when things settle down, or, you light down in a new location.

That's one possible scenario. Another is spreading out into the cosmos.

[maxfrost]

Last laugh may come with famine, as all the obese people make it through...

Obese people will be the first ones served.

[Darth Rotor]

10-roger. Habit of mine - I like to step as far back as possible when viewing these kinds of issues and stresses.

What will be the biggest problem this century, though, and not just for Western civilization but all civilizations, is our stubborn, perhaps inate, sense of territoriality. That deep-rooted concept will be severely tested. We'll fail some of those tests, undoubtedly. You just know that's coming. We love sinking long stakes into areas from tiny to gargantuan, and refusing to budge.

We've fought horrific, destructive, massive and bloody wars over territory, and that's when there were far fewer people and far more areas of arable but uninhabited land. Now the situation is reversed: 7 billion people, less available land, hundreds of nations and cultures bound and determined to survive and carry forth their cultures and traditions - no matter what the cost.

It'd be better if we didn't tie so much meaning to land and the items, cultural and material, we deposit upon that land. We'd perhaps fare better if we were more mobile-minded, nomadic by nature. Way way way off into the future, I can envision ACTUAL fully self-contained mobile homes that can get airborne. Kind of like living in your car - except it's bigger and has running water. You pick up and go. You escape the temporary floods, the fires, the earthquakes, the tornadoes, the droughts, the whatevers. You come back when things settle down, or, you light down in a new location.

That's one possible scenario.
Another is to look at global warming as adding to the total water content, which means more evaporated water, which means more rain, which might mean less drought. (Depends on rainfall distribution.) Silver linings to clouds, and all that. :cool: Of course, if all of the water shows up at once, like hurricane Ike, that's another story. :P
Another is spreading out into the cosmos.
That won't stop the warring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft)and fighting, sorry to say, as that will lead to The Brood War. :cool:

[Kittyclaws]

Obese people will be the first ones served.

"Served" as in putting plates before them or "served" as in on the plate? ;)

If it's the latter, you'll have to catch me first.

[gumboot]

On the plus side my own little slice of paradise will probably survive fine - New Zealand is one of the few first world countries with a bio capacity greater than the population's biological footprint.

Fortunately the mass starvations, riots, and hurricanes will stop you filthy land-lubbing continentals for getting your emaciated ET-fingered hands on our deliciously rich soil.

[Alt+F4]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

I blame it on gay marriage.

[ConspiRaider]

Another is to look at global warming as adding to the total water content, which means more evaporated water, which means more rain, which might mean less drought. (Depends on rainfall distribution.) Silver linings to clouds, and all that. :cool: Of course, if all of the water shows up at once, like hurricane Ike, that's another story. :P

That won't stop the warring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft)and fighting, sorry to say, as that will lead to The Brood War. :cool:
I suppose the actual volume of water stays relatively the same on the Earth, so I'll assume you mean freshwater, Darthster. It's all in the cause and effect, as you indicated. Rapidly changing weather patterns should cause some parched areas to be drenched, other previously wet areas "droughted", and still others virtually unaffected.

Took millions of years but apparently, rainfall patterns contributed mightily to how we arrived. To get us out of the trees, you first have to dry out East Africa a bit, change the vegetation here and there, and thereby force a primarily arboreal creature down onto the savannahs for survival. The sub-continent India bashing into Asia and plowing up the Himalayas figured into that little drama. The rains stayed mainly on the plains - of India and Asia as monsoons.

[Darth Rotor]

I suppose the actual volume of water stays relatively the same on the Earth, so I'll assume you mean freshwater, Darthster.
Sort of. I mean the water content of the atmosphere. As temp goes up, it tends to be able to retain more water. Cold air is dryer than warm air, and all that. More water surface, oceans, means greater evap potential.

It's all in the cause and effect, as you indicated. Rapidly changing weather patterns should cause some parched areas to be drenched, other previously wet areas "droughted", and still others virtually unaffected.
Yeah.

DR

[ConspiRaider]

Sort of. I mean the water content of the atmosphere. As temp goes up, it tends to be able to retain more water. Cold air is dryer than warm air, and all that. More water surface, oceans, means greater evap potential.
Ten-four.

I suppose greater cloud cover can also contribute to the atmosphere acting more as a thermal blanket, keeping things a bit toastier.

I blame the weathermen for SOME of this.

But mostly:

:iblamelisa:

[Darth Rotor]

I suppose greater cloud cover can also contribute to the atmosphere acting more as a thermal blanket, keeping things a bit toastier.
I think that is why they call it the green house effect. On the upside, the orchids are blooming in record numbers this year. :D
I blame the weathermen for SOME of this. But mostly:

:iblamelisa:
That goes without saying.

DR

[gtc]

On the plus side my own little slice of paradise will probably survive fine - New Zealand is one of the few first world countries with a bio capacity greater than the population's biological footprint.

Are you presuming that the South Island will want to share with you northerners?

[Zep]

On the plus side my own little slice of paradise will probably survive fine - New Zealand is one of the few first world countries with a bio capacity greater than the population's biological footprint.

Fortunately the mass starvations, riots, and hurricanes will stop you filthy land-lubbing continentals for getting your emaciated ET-fingered hands on our deliciously rich soil....while NZ disappears hissing into the Pacific Ocean due to sudden volcanic activity brought on by SATAN!

[Gurdur]

Oh, so you want to have me over for dinner? :jaw-dropp


Just call me a Themroc 'n roller. :)

[HereticHulk]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis....

Good post!

This is precisely why I decided not to have any kids. The next 50, hell the next 20 years are going to very rough even for my generation. (Generation X)

[gumboot]

Are you presuming that the South Island will want to share with you northerners?

If they want our electricity generation they will.

[gumboot]

In consideration of this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4227091#post4227091) post I would like to add to me original list of travesties the following:

Increasing numbers of sex related threads at JREF forums.

The end is indeed nigh!

[Soapy Sam]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.


So...
Nothing new there then...

[gumboot]

So...
Nothing new there then...



You forgot the plague of sex threads on the JREF forums. Clearly the smoking gun that proves the end has come. After sex comes smoke. Where there's smoke there's fire. Fire and brimstone.

[bigred]

I can't believe someone said "nigh." Do you say "whence" a lot too?

;)


Anyway - of course the end closes in. I'm amazed this might be news to anyone.

[gumboot]

I can't believe someone said "nigh." Do you say "whence" a lot too?

;)


Prithee Sir (or M'Lady), mayhaps thou wouldst explain what thou art insinuating, for methinks thou makes mockery of mine self.

[JihadJane]

I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.

What is "western civilisation"?

Modern, technological empire-building humanity has come to dominate the planet by consuming ever-increasing amounts of accumulated solar energy. Wars, now waged over oil, were once fought over forests. The coal/oil bonanza may represent "western civilisation's" last, ecstatic gasp before inevitable detumescence.

We borrow energy from the past, creating an enormous energy debt in our civilisation's accumulated economy. This debt becomes due for repayment when the energy supply starts to decline. Debt-based economies have only one possible destination: Collapse.



- - - - - - - - - - -

General interest:

Russian Analyst Predicts Decline and Breakup of U.S.:

http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

[Earthborn]

I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.Then why did you make a list of global problems?

[Earthborn]

Russian Analyst Predicts Decline and Breakup of U.S.Russian analysts have been predicting this since 1917 or so. If they continue to do so, they are bound to be right some day.

[gumboot]

Then why did you make a list of global problems?


Because those global problems have a negative impact on western civilisation. (Not all of them are global problems anyway)

[JihadJane]

Russian analysts have been predicting this since 1917 or so. If they continue to do so, they are bound to be right some day.

When do you think that day will be?

[paximperium]

When do you think that day will be?
Ohhh...not anytime soon.
People have been predicting the break up of the US since 1776.

[Tailgater]

When do you think that day will be?

Not soon enough for you, I bet.

[Tailgater]

What is "western civilisation"?

Modern, technological empire-building humanity has come to dominate the planet by consuming ever-increasing amounts of accumulated solar energy. Wars, now waged over oil, were once fought over forests. The coal/oil bonanza may represent "western civilisation's" last, ecstatic gasp before inevitable detumescence.

We borrow energy from the past, creating an enormous energy debt in our civilisation's accumulated economy. This debt becomes due for repayment when the energy supply starts to decline. Debt-based economies have only one possible destination: Collapse.



- - - - - - - - - - -

General interest:

Russian Analyst Predicts Decline and Breakup of U.S.:

http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html


Evidence this guy is a flaming idiot. Only takes reading thi8s paragraph.


He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.
He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all."


It's all dumb, but I just had to bold the Canadian part.

[paximperium]

It's all dumb, but I just had to bold the Canadian part.
Why just bold the Canadian part?
The entirety of it is stupid and shows a blatant ignorance of US socio-politics.

Man, what sort of person would be dumb enough to believe such prattle and use it as evidence anyway? I wonder?

[Tailgater]

Why just bold the Canadian part?
The entirety of it is stupid and shows a blatant ignorance of US socio-politics.

Man, what sort of person would be dumb enough to believe such prattle and use it as evidence anyway? I wonder?

Ya, just like to poke at my Canadian friends.

That entire site is a riot. He better hope he's wrong. I read another article that says Russia based the federal budget on $95 dollar a barrel oil for 2009.:eye-poppi

....and in other news..."Historian says 'genocidal' Ukrainian famine theory born in U.S."

[JihadJane]

Man, what sort of person would be dumb enough to believe such prattle and use it as evidence anyway? I wonder?

I don't know. Perhaps the sort with a mischievous sense of humour. Who used it "as evidence anyway"?

ETA: Or perhaps a Russian who has lived through the unexpected break-up of the USSR.

[JoeyDonuts]

Those of us who play Fallout 3 - America's First Choice in Post-Nuclear Simulation - are going to be far more prepared than the rest of you for the coming apocalypse. As long as there are prototype weapons strewn to and fro across the wastes, that is.

I, for one, welcome our new super mutant overlords.

[paximperium]

Those of us who play Fallout 3 - America's First Choice in Post-Nuclear Simulation - are going to be far more prepared than the rest of you for the coming apocalypse. As long as there are prototype weapons strewn to and fro across the wastes, that is.

I, for one, welcome our new super mutant overlords.
I want my own Fat Man mini-nuke.

[JoeyDonuts]

I want my own Fat Man mini-nuke.

Seems to leave structures intact. I should try that next time the line's a little too long for my tastes at McDonald's.

EAT RADS, PLEBIAN SWINE! *mushroom*

[leonAzul]

It's all dumb, but I just had to bold the Canadian part.

You should have bolded this part:


Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.


en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

[Tailgater]

I don't know. Perhaps the sort with a mischievous sense of humour. Who used it "as evidence anyway"?

ETA: Or perhaps a Russian who has lived through the unexpected break-up of the USSR.

Funny that you would post that article, brush it off as being unimportant or that it was just FYI, and then add that ETA. I can't help but guess your posting has recently spilled over from the CT forums.

[Tailgater]

You should have bolded this part:



en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

Good point. Someone should tell this guy to study up. You can't win an information war when your misinformation is an outright parody.

[JihadJane]

Funny that you would post that article, brush it off as being unimportant or that it was just FYI, and then add that ETA.

I was aware of the predictable way that people like yourself would likely react to it and that amused me. That doesn't make the article unimportant.

US citizens and others would do well study the collapse of the Soviet Union and how Russians survived it.

From intro to:

'Post-Soviet Lessons for a Post-American Century'

By Dmitry Orlov

"...we should emphasize one major difference between the collapse of the Soviet Union and the dissolution which now confronts [the US]. Russia was able to survive the collapse and stage a comeback because it was largely a political and economic collapse. Russia still had a rich resource base, and most importantly vast energy reserves. Moreover, it was a regional collapse; there was a healthy world outside of Russia to which it could turn for aid, albeit at an exploitive price. Following the global peak of oil and the worldwide, irreversible decline in energy production, there will be little left on which to stage a comeback. "

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060105_soviet_lessons.shtml


I can't help but guess your posting has recently spilled over from the CT forums.

Guess again.

[paximperium]

I was aware of the predictable way that people like yourself would likely react to it and that amused me. That doesn't make the article unimportant.

US citizens and others would do well study the collapse of the Soviet Union and how Russians survived it.

From intro to:

'Post-Soviet Lessons for a Post-American Century'

By Dmitry Orlov

"...we should emphasize one major difference between the collapse of the Soviet Union and the dissolution which now confronts [the US]. Russia was able to survive the collapse and stage a comeback because it was largely a political and economic collapse. Russia still had a rich resource base, and most importantly vast energy reserves. Moreover, it was a regional collapse; there was a healthy world outside of Russia to which it could turn for aid, albeit at an exploitive price. Following the global peak of oil and the worldwide, irreversible decline in energy production, there will be little left on which to stage a comeback. "

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060105_soviet_lessons.shtml




Guess again.
Why should anyone listen to someone completely ignorant about what they are talking about?

The Soviet Union is not even a close analogy to the United States. The Soviet Union was a forced amalgamation of nations under the foot of Moscow. The Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians are gloriously happy that their Russian masters no longer have a gun to their heads.

The United States is a country. We are united by many things including a common history, language and government system.

Your continued propagation of an article filled with garbage and the moronic belief that the US will break apart continues to be inane and ridiculous.

[JihadJane]

Why should anyone listen to someone completely ignorant about what they are talking about?

The Soviet Union is not even a close analogy to the United States. The Soviet Union was a forced amalgamation of nations under the foot of Moscow. The Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians are gloriously happy that their Russian masters no longer have a gun to their heads.

The United States is a country. We are united by many things including a common history, language and government system.

Your continued propagation of an article filled with garbage and the moronic belief that the US will break apart continues to be inane and ridiculous.

Spanish?

It is of no concern to me whether anyone listens to me or not. Dmitry Orlov knows exactly what he is talking about.

The US, as we have known it, is over. Its power is on the wane. What happens next is anyone's guess. My guess is that there could be one more artificial bubble, pumped up by the recently enriched Fed, followed by a final pop. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, though.

[paximperium]

Spanish?
What about it? A large chunk of 1st generation American born immigrants speak English and Spanish. The recent immigrants do not speak English or just broken English. I speak 4 languages myself. What was your point again?


It is of no concern to me whether anyone listens to me or not. Dmitry Orlov knows exactly what he is talking about.Yeah, sure. Your ability to be able to use a brain is clearly suspect if you trust such badly written article. I notice you didn't refute a single point I made.
It is a good thing that no one listens to you.


The US, as we have known it, is over. Its power is on the wane. What happens next is anyone's guess. My guess is that there could be one more artificial bubble, pumped up by the recently enriched Fed, followed by a final pop. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, though.Your "guess" and opinion is has the weight of truth of a 5 year old child. The 5 year old has an excuse, you don't.

[Tailgater]

I was aware of the predictable way that people like yourself would likely react to it and that amused me. That doesn't make the article unimportant.

US citizens and others would do well study the collapse of the Soviet Union and how Russians survived it.

From intro to:

'Post-Soviet Lessons for a Post-American Century'

By Dmitry Orlov

"...we should emphasize one major difference between the collapse of the Soviet Union and the dissolution which now confronts [the US]. Russia was able to survive the collapse and stage a comeback because it was largely a political and economic collapse. Russia still had a rich resource base, and most importantly vast energy reserves. Moreover, it was a regional collapse; there was a healthy world outside of Russia to which it could turn for aid, albeit at an exploitive price. Following the global peak of oil and the worldwide, irreversible decline in energy production, there will be little left on which to stage a comeback. "

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060105_soviet_lessons.shtml


Pax pretty much covered it. The Soviet Union was made up of countries full of many people that hated Russia. I know Polish immigrants that would spit at the sight or mention of a Russian. Russia is not the Soviet Union. The US might be facing economic troubles, (collapse is an exaggeration from mouth foamers like yourself) but it is so far removed politically, it's laughable.

[JihadJane]

Pax pretty much covered it. The Soviet Union was made up of countries full of many people that hated Russia. I know Polish immigrants that would spit at the sight or mention of a Russian. Russia is not the Soviet Union. The US might be facing economic troubles, (collapse is an exaggeration from mouth foamers like yourself) but it is so far removed politically, it's laughable.

Collapse is not an exaggeration. It is the result of a century-long pyramid scheme and it is unlikely that the process can be halted.

VIDEO: http://www.europac.net/Schiff-CNBC-11-20-08_lg.asp

[paximperium]

Collapse is not an exaggeration. It is the result of a century-long pyramid scheme and it is unlikely that the process can be halted.

VIDEO: http://www.europac.net/Schiff-CNBC-11-20-08_lg.asp
Great clip. I agree with him. A little more pessimistic than most, but not too far off.

How does this support your delusion moronic claims and continued propagation of your breakup of the US scenario?

[JihadJane]

Great clip. I agree with him. A little more pessimistic than most, but not too far off.

How does this support your delusion moronic claims and continued propagation of your breakup of the US scenario?

Heehe! I love your OTT flamboyant explosions!

I'm not propagating any scenarios but think it's useful to consider possible futures. We do not know if the US will hold together. For those of us tired of US bullying it is refreshing to picture the empire's demise. Empires have broken up before.

The consequences of the collapse of the most powerful empire that's ever existed are unknown. We can look forward to massive power vacuums as the sprawling US military returns home in rags! It not just the US that could disintegrate...the financial chaos that its corruption has unleashed may collapse the entire global monetary sytem. The foundations of our deluded civilisation of infinite growth are threatened from several directions at once. I know that you think that there's always going to be enough energy. Many peope don't and money without energy is worthless.

[paximperium]

Heehe! I love your OTT flamboyant explosions!
Wow. You really are projecting.
I find you pathetic. I don't get worked up over inane and idiotic posts. You are as amusing as kicking a rat.


I'm not propagating any scenarios but think it's useful to consider possible futures. We do not know if the US will hold together. For those of us tired of US bullying it is refreshing to picture the empire's demise. Empires have broken up before. So you enjoy fantasy anti-american fiction? Well, whatever makes you happy. Enjoy your fantasy while people deal with reality.

The consequences of the collapse of the most powerful empire that's ever existed are unknown. We can look forward to massive power vacuums as the sprawling US military returns home in rags! It not just the US that could disintegrate...the financial chaos that its corruption has unleashed may collapse the entire global monetary sytem. The foundations of our deluded civilisation of infinite growth are threatened from several directions at once. I know that you think that there's always going to be enough energy. Many peope don't and money without energy is worthless.
I don't just make things up. My belief in the continued energy growth has do with things called evidence and facts, things which you seem to not have on your side. All you have is fantasy and terrible fiction written by an ignorant author.

Even your video link didn't support your delusion. You obviously didn't watch it, didn't understand it or are just delusional.

Well enjoy your fantasy snuff porn. I can see you gleefully waiting for people to suffer and nations to collapse.
I will actually work towards making the world a better place. You seem to take joy in watching the world collapse. You are truly a sad human being.

[JihadJane]

Wow. You really are projecting.
I find you pathetic. I don't get worked up over inane and idiotic posts. You are as amusing as kicking a rat.

I wasn't suggesting you were getting worked up. I was enjoying your flamboyant language.

So you enjoy fantasy anti-american fiction? Well, whatever makes you happy. Enjoy your fantasy while people deal with reality.

It's funny how any criticism of the US is immediately termed "anti-American" or, if coming from an American, "unAmerican". This may be because, more than being a country, America is a religion. Perhaps you have never imagined what it's like to be on the receiving end of US firepower, terrorism and economic sobotage.

I don't just make things up. My belief in the continued energy growth has do with things called evidence and facts, things which you seem to not have on your side. All you have is fantasy and terrible fiction written by an ignorant author.

I haven't been convinced by any of your "evidence and facts". You have yet to present a comprehensive vision of how the transition to non-fossil energy can be achieved. I think we've left it too late. I'm not the only one, though am slightly more optimistic than George Monbiot:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/25/climate-change-carbon-emissions

Even your video link didn't support your delusion. You obviously didn't watch it, didn't understand it or are just delusional.

The video shows that the possibility of economic collapse is now entering mainstream consciousness.

Well enjoy your fantasy snuff porn. I can see you gleefully waiting for people to suffer and nations to collapse.
I will actually work towards making the world a better place. You seem to take joy in watching the world collapse. You are truly a sad human being.

You have never met me so your judgement is a fantasy.

It is strange that you deny that your style is flamboyant! I do not wait gleefuly. I wait and watch with intense trepidation and accept that I myself may die prematurely as our system disintegrates. I am making whatever small preparations I can in combination with similarly minded local and international activists. I fear for our children. There is a faint possibility that future generations may live more harmoniously within their ecosystems having learned from our mistakes.

If our civilisation doesn't collapse civilised human life will become less and less viable. We cannot go on growing.

[Earthborn]

The Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians are gloriously happy that their Russian masters no longer have a gun to their heads.
Poland and Czecho-Slovakia were not part of the Soviet Union

The Soviet Union was made up of countries full of many people that hated Russia. I know Polish immigrants that would spit at the sight or mention of a Russian.Poland was not part of the Soviet Union.

[Tailgater]

Poland was not part of the Soviet Union.

Eastern Poland was annexed into the Soviet Union. I would have to research to know the exact way Polish boundaries were rearranged, but I'm cooking a turkey. Between taking land and occupation of the rest, that would be enough to say "Poland was part of the Soviet Union", unless you want to have a pissing match over semantics.

ETA: Not to mention Polands government was an extension of the Kremlin for decades after.

[Tailgater]

Czecho-Slovakia were not part of ....

They were kept Communist by the force of the Soviet military. All of these countries were Soviet controlled. Is that better?

[Earthborn]

Between taking land and occupation of the rest, that would be enough to say "Poland was part of the Soviet Union"It would be enough to say that "a part of what was once Poland was once part of the Soviet Union." But this is irrelevant as we are talking about the time of the break up of the Soviet Union. What was then at that time officially Poland was not officially part of the Soviet Union, and therefore whatever the attitudes of the people were in what was officially Poland had very little to do with the break up of what was officially the Soviet Union.

Using Poland as an example in a discussion about why the Soviet Union broke up is quite silly. If Alaska or Texas ever seceded it would be like dragging Canada into a discussion.

[Tailgater]

It would be enough to say that "a part of what was once Poland was once part of the Soviet Union." But this is irrelevant as we are talking about the time of the break up of the Soviet Union. What was then at that time officially Poland was not officially part of the Soviet Union, and therefore whatever the attitudes of the people were in what was officially Poland had very little to do with the break up of what was officially the Soviet Union.

Using Poland as an example in a discussion about why the Soviet Union broke up is quite silly. If Alaska or Texas ever seceded it would be like dragging Canada into a discussion.

No. Canada is not a satellite country to the US, with a US puppet government in place, nor does the US military enforce what type of government exists there. If you want to be technical about it, ok, I totally understand what you are saying, but a comparison to any country around the US is different.

People are not trying to get out of the US sphere of influence. That is the whole point. People wanted out of the Soviet/Communist sphere of influence and that included those countries, but not just because of economic reasons. Jane is also saying.....

We do not know if the US will hold together. For those of us tired of US bullying it is refreshing to picture the empire's demise. Empires have broken up before.

...so she is speaking of the decline of any sphere of influence as well as a country divided. There was no tighter, sustained sphere of control over other countries that I could think of in the last century, then the Soviet Union and satellites within it's control.

They were part of the Soviet Union, but not part of the Soviet Union. :)
I understand what you are saying, but I don't need to dissect it that far.

[JihadJane]

People are not trying to get out of the US sphere of influence.

Millions of people are trying to get out of the US sphere of influence, the majority of Iraqis and Afghans, for instance.

[Tailgater]

Millions of people are trying to get out of the US sphere of influence, the majority of Iraqis and Afghans, for instance.

Yes, but that's apples and oranges to the Eastern Bloc.