how many horseshoes?

[bio]

"NIST NCSTAR 1-3, WTC Investigation, Draft" reports just of one horseshoe formed steel-beam:

”However, another analysis with parameters set to increase the amount of damage indicated that impact damage was sustained. Core column C-88a did not sustain impact damage as (1) the damage (81st floor level) was above the floors of impact in this region (79th floor level), (2) the columns were bent downward indicating overloading of the column from above, and (3) the bending direction of the plates was opposite to the direction of the travel of the plane. This is also consistent with the modeling results.”

At page 89 you can see a photo of this horseshoe. Altogether NIST has four pieces of the core from the impact-zone. ...but:

6.6.2 Core Columns Exposed to Fire
”Four of the core columns with known as-built locations were examined for mud cracking of the paint. For columns C-88a and C-88b, sufficient paint for analysis was not available. For columns HH and C-80, few areas of paint were observed (three to five spots per column) with no indication of temperatures over 250 °C. Note that these core columns represent less than 1 percent of the core columns on floors involved with fire and cannot be considered representative of any other core columns.”

… it was not possible for NIST to analyze the temperature of the steel from the horseshoe. Why was it not possible for NIST to find out the temperature by using an electron microscope (as it happened with the steel piece of WTC-7)?

The temperature of the steel had to be very high:

Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl:
He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns: "If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted--it's kind of like that." He added, "That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot--perhaps around 2,000 degrees."
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/Chronicle.html

This means the temperature of the steel was around 1000 degree C.

Now – there are two more horseshoes, which NIST ignored:

In the documentation “relics from the rubble” we can see a horseshoe, but it is not identical with the horseshoe of NIST (C-88a, C-88b).

In the documentation the expert says, ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM
.... that it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way.

... and in following study on page 44, there is even a third horseshoe.
http://www.habiru.de/Dirk_Gerhardt/GeschmolzenesMetallamGroundZero.pdf

Why did not NIST include these additional horseshoes in their studies? According to the official theory all horseshoes had to stand in the impact area ...
.... and if not?

[Dr Adequate]

Let us know when you have found answers to these questions.

[bio]

... is this a joke?:cool:

[T.A.M.]

another investigoogler breaks the conspiracy wide open.

I look forward to seeing you on Olbermann and Maddow.

TAM:)

[WildCat]

... is this a joke?:cool:
You tell us, it's your thread.

[bio]

your irrational responses show, that obviously I did a good job.

[jhunter1163]

Bio, to see what can be done with plain old wood fires, investigoogle "Sherman's Neckties".

[Drudgewire]

Did I just see surrealist paintings used to help explain the science behind WTC?

*head asplodes*

[Dave Rogers]

your irrational responses show, that obviously I did a good job.

Wrong. Rational responses convey the message, "You have argued your point well enough for it to be worth replying to." Since you've completely failed to convey any point at all other than your personal dissatisfaction that NIST failed to describe the detailed history of every single piece of steel in the WTC rubble pile, there seems very little of substance to be said in response.

Dave

[Myriad]

your irrational responses show, that obviously I did a good job.


The responses show that you have asked some questions.

Your next step is to either answer them, or find someone who cares about them enough to answer them for you.

To get people to care about them, you might consider answering this question: how should the formation of additional horseshoe-bent columns either during or after the collapse of the wtc towers affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[T.A.M.]

your irrational responses show, that obviously I did a good job.

No, it shows that your propensity for irrelavent minutia has caused us to yawn.

Personally, I did not even read much beyond the first few lines...told me all I need to know...you know...group of investigooglers and wanna be scientists discover secret to collapse of WTCs that a panel of PhDs in the given fields could not.

TAM:)

[Grizzly Bear]

… it was not possible for NIST to analyze the temperature of the steel from the horseshoe. Why was it not possible for NIST to find out the temperature by using an electron microscope (as it happened with the steel piece of WTC-7)?

The temperature of the steel had to be very high:

Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl:
He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns: "If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted--it's kind of like that." He added, "That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot--perhaps around 2,000 degrees."
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/Chronicle.html

This means the temperature of the steel was around 1000 degree C.

Now – there are two more horseshoes, which NIST ignored:

In the documentation “relics from the rubble” we can see a horseshoe, but it is not identical with the horseshoe of NIST (C-88a, C-88b).

In the documentation the expert says, ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM
.... that it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way.

... and in following study on page 44, there is even a third horseshoe.
http://www.habiru.de/Dirk_Gerhardt/GeschmolzenesMetallamGroundZero.pdf

Why did not NIST include these additional horseshoes in their studies? According to the official theory all horseshoes had to stand in the impact area ...
.... and if not?

And all of this implies????
What conclusion is all of this evidence you compiled supposed to lead me to?

[DGM]

how many horseshoes?

Bio:
I hope this answers your concerns although I don't see how it pertains to 9/11


Sec. 6.1: A game is divided into innings and each inning constitutes the pitching of two shoes by each contestant.

Sec. 6.2: Score all points earned, in figures only, as follows:
No Score...........................0
Points........................1 or 2
Ringer.............................3
Ringer and Point...................4
Double Ringer......................6

Sec. 6.3: Definition of a Ringer. - A ringer is declared when a shoe encircles the stake far enough to allow the touching of both heel caulks simultaneously with a straight edge.

Sec. 6.4: The points shall be scored according to the position of the shoes at the inning's end, that is, after the contestants have each thrown two shoes.

Sec. 6.5: Ringer credits shall be given on the same basis.

Sec. 6.6: A leaning shoe has no value over one touching the stake.

Sec. 6.7: A shoe must be within six (6) inches of the stake to score.

Sec. 6.8: No contestant shall touch their own or opponent's shoe or shoes until winner of point or points has been agreed upon by contestants or decision rendered by the referee. Referee shall declare foul, shoes thrown by a contestant failing to comply with this rule, and award points to the opponent according to the position of his or her shoes.

Sec. 6.9: The points of the persons name on top of score board will be called first.

Sec. 6.10: Recording of the Results. - The recording of results shall be as follows: G - Games pitched; P - Points; R - Ringers; DR - Double Ringers.


http://www.geocities.com/ahpa1949/rules/rules2.htm#scoring

[Mancman]

I managed to find every single horseshoe in GTA: San Andreas, but only 99 of the 100 graffiti tags, gutted.

[boloboffin]

I think this is what he's trying to say: somebody who would lie about horseshoes would lie about hand grenades.

Let me know if I'm close.

[tsig]

I think this is what he's trying to say: somebody who would lie about horseshoes would lie about hand grenades.

Let me know if I'm close.

I got It!! Giant horses pulled down the buildings. By ignoring the other horseshoes the evil conspiracy is trying to cover up this fact.

[Drudgewire]

I got It!! Giant horses pulled down the buildings. By ignoring the other horseshoes the evil conspiracy is trying to cover up this fact.

And we're back to my rogue unicorns theory. Man are you JREF apologists going to be embarrassed the day I finally get the smoking gun. :D

[bio]

The responses show that you have asked some questions.

Your next step is to either answer them, or find someone who cares about them enough to answer them for you.

To get people to care about them, you might consider answering this question: how should the formation of additional horseshoe-bent columns either during or after the collapse of the wtc towers affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

Respectfully,
Myriad

How could the steel beam formed into a horseshoe inside the pile (after collapse)?:confused:

[boloboffin]

How could the steel beam formed into a horseshoe inside the pile (after collapse)?:confused:

Somebody hasn't googled "Sherman's Bowties" yet.

[bio]

your responses are just stupid until now.

[Drudgewire]

your responses are just stupid until now.

We read the OP and assumed it was the theme of the thread. :p

[T.A.M.]

We read the OP and assumed it was the theme of the thread. :p

nice!

TAM:)

[1337m4n]

How could the steel beam formed into a horseshoe inside the pile (after collapse)?:confused:

Perhaps the question you should be asking yourself is: how could demolitions/thermite/thermate/holograms/space beams/DEW/magic pixies/Godzilla explain said horseshoes in such a way that an ordinary collapse could not?

[bio]

Perhaps the question you should be asking yourself is: how could demolitions/thermite/thermate/holograms/space beams/DEW/magic pixies/Godzilla explain said horseshoes in such a way that an ordinary collapse could not?

The horseshoes, which I am talking about, were (very likely) produces by high heat + overloading from above. I have the impression, that you guys have no explanation at all for the additional two horseshoes.

Why did NIST ignore these additional horseshoes?
NIST reports just from one and I found two more. Can the explanation be, that these additional horseshoes come from beams, which stood outside the impact-zone?

[AJM8125]

If I comprehend this correctly, He's insinuating that a giagantic suicidal horse trampled the towers and burned away leaving his shoes behind. This too can be debunked, The NWO's timetable to unleash killer mutant horses on the general public states clealy that this is to occur around Febuary 2017, depending if the superbowl is a good match up or not.

[eromitlab]

The horseshoes, which I am talking about, were (very likely) produces by high heat + overloading from above. I have the impression, that you guys have no explanation at all for the additional two horseshoes.


Both of which were present in the building and affected the columns, without thermite/explosives/missiles/whatever needing to be involved. Fires, and unexpected stresses from above thanks to losses of other columns. Congratulations, bio, you proved that plane impacts and fire brought down the towers, and now you're on to wanting to learn about semantics.

[bio]

If I comprehend this correctly, He's insinuating that a giagantic suicidal horse trampled the towers and burned away leaving his shoes behind. This too can be debunked, The NWO's timetable to unleash killer mutant horses on the general public states clealy that this is to occur around Febuary 2017, depending if the superbowl is a good match up or not.

.. this magic horse left its shoes there, where it was not possible according to the official theory.

[DGM]

bio:
Why don't you explain to us how this happened by a method other than the "official explanation"?

I'm all ears (please use real provable facts and show plausibility)

[Grizzly Bear]

Both of which were present in the building and affected the columns, without thermite/explosives/missiles/whatever needing to be involved. Fires, and unexpected stresses from above thanks to losses of other columns. Congratulations, bio, you proved that plane impacts and fire brought down the towers, and now you're on to wanting to learn about semantics.

I just can't figure out bio's thought logic with this... then again I see a hilarious irony in his post...

[bio]

Both of which were present in the building and affected the columns, without thermite/explosives/missiles/whatever needing to be involved. Fires, and unexpected stresses from above thanks to losses of other columns. Congratulations, bio, you proved that plane impacts and fire brought down the towers, and now you're on to wanting to learn about semantics.

Why did NIST ignore at least two horseshoes? According to the official theory, the horseshoes need to come from the fire zone. Only there was the heat available to form a horseshoe out of a beam.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Why did NIST ignore at least two horseshoes? According to the official theory, the horseshoes need to come from the fire zone. Only there was the heat available to form a horseshoe out of a beam.


Why only there? I mean, truthers love to point out how hot the debris pile was and for how long. Does this fact suddenly not exist?

[1337m4n]

The horseshoes, which I am talking about, were (very likely) produces by high heat + overloading from above. I have the impression, that you guys have no explanation at all for the additional two horseshoes.

Why did NIST ignore these additional horseshoes?
NIST reports just from one and I found two more. Can the explanation be, that these additional horseshoes come from beams, which stood outside the impact-zone?

Can somebody give me a translation?

[Horatius]

I think this is what he's trying to say: somebody who would lie about horseshoes would lie about hand grenades.

Let me know if I'm close.



Sorry, my Dad always taught me that "close" only counts in Horseshoes and....Oh, wait, now I see what you did there!



;)

[Myriad]

The responses show that you have asked some questions.

Your next step is to either answer them, or find someone who cares about them enough to answer them for you.

To get people to care about them, you might consider answering this question: how should the formation of additional horseshoe-bent columns either during or after the collapse of the wtc towers affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

How could the steel beam formed into a horseshoe inside the pile (after collapse)?:confused:


You'd be less confused if you had answered the question I suggested you answer, instead of asking another one.

But for the sake of argument, let's suppose -- despite the known existence of sustained high temperatures inside the rubble pile, and despite the obvious likelihood of extremely high forces and torques acting on various pieces of the chaotically piled debris in the rubble piles, and despite the fact that the building was on fire and that the overloading of the core columns to the point of failure in or near the floors subjected to fire is part of the generally accepted collapse scenario -- that the bending of several steel beams during or subsequent to the collapse is unexplainable to science. (Cue spooky music).

So, then, how do you think the existence of these horseshoe-bent columns should affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Hokulele]

How could the steel beam formed into a horseshoe inside the pile (after collapse)?:confused:

Somebody hasn't googled "Sherman's Bowties" yet.

your responses are just stupid until now.


Actually, "Sherman's Bowties" is a serious answer to your question. Have you Googled it yet?

ETA: Although I have usually seen it written as Sherman's Neckties.

[TjW]

And we're back to my rogue unicorns theory. Man are you JREF apologists going to be embarrassed the day I finally get the smoking gun. :D

Personally, I feel a smoking anything would be more consistent with dragons than unicorns. Perhaps invisible dragons and unicorns conspired together?
The dragons heated the steel, enabling the unicorns to easily "pull it" down.

[3bodyproblem]

"NIST NCSTAR 1-3, WTC Investigation, Draft" reports just of one horseshoe formed steel-beam:

”However, another analysis with parameters set to increase the amount of damage indicated that impact damage was sustained. Core column C-88a did not sustain impact damage as (1) the damage (81st floor level) was above the floors of impact in this region (79th floor level), (2) the columns were bent downward indicating overloading of the column from above, and (3) the bending direction of the plates was opposite to the direction of the travel of the plane. This is also consistent with the modeling results.”

At page 89 you can see a photo of this horseshoe. Altogether NIST has four pieces of the core from the impact-zone. ...but:

6.6.2 Core Columns Exposed to Fire
”Four of the core columns with known as-built locations were examined for mud cracking of the paint. For columns C-88a and C-88b, sufficient paint for analysis was not available. For columns HH and C-80, few areas of paint were observed (three to five spots per column) with no indication of temperatures over 250 °C. Note that these core columns represent less than 1 percent of the core columns on floors involved with fire and cannot be considered representative of any other core columns.”

… it was not possible for NIST to analyze the temperature of the steel from the horseshoe. Why was it not possible for NIST to find out the temperature by using an electron microscope (as it happened with the steel piece of WTC-7)?

The temperature of the steel had to be very high:

Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl:
He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns: "If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted--it's kind of like that." He added, "That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot--perhaps around 2,000 degrees."
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/Chronicle.html

This means the temperature of the steel was around 1000 degree C.

Now – there are two more horseshoes, which NIST ignored:

In the documentation “relics from the rubble” we can see a horseshoe, but it is not identical with the horseshoe of NIST (C-88a, C-88b).

In the documentation the expert says, ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM
.... that it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way.

... and in following study on page 44, there is even a third horseshoe.
http://www.habiru.de/Dirk_Gerhardt/GeschmolzenesMetallamGroundZero.pdf

Why did not NIST include these additional horseshoes in their studies? According to the official theory all horseshoes had to stand in the impact area ...
.... and if not?

Is there a way to distiguish "horseshoes" formed by thermal stress and those by physical stress? It seems to reason the only ones worth study are those formed by physical stress out of the impact zone(s)...

[UNLoVedRebel]

This thread belongs in the science forum. Unless someone can show that these "horseshoes" were caused by explosives or thermite.

[Drudgewire]

Personally, I feel a smoking anything would be more consistent with dragons than unicorns. Perhaps invisible dragons and unicorns conspired together?
The dragons heated the steel, enabling the unicorns to easily "pull it" down.

Don't you see? That's what they WANT you to think.

Sheeple. :rolleyes:

[jhunter1163]

Actually, "Sherman's Bowties" is a serious answer to your question. Have you Googled it yet?

ETA: Although I have usually seen it written as Sherman's Neckties.

Ahem. See my post #7.

[bio]

You'd be less confused if you had answered the question I suggested you answer, instead of asking another one.

But for the sake of argument, let's suppose -- despite the known existence of sustained high temperatures inside the rubble pile, and despite the obvious likelihood of extremely high forces and torques acting on various pieces of the chaotically piled debris in the rubble piles, and despite the fact that the building was on fire and that the overloading of the core columns to the point of failure in or near the floors subjected to fire is part of the generally accepted collapse scenario -- that the bending of several steel beams during or subsequent to the collapse is unexplainable to science. (Cue spooky music).

So, then, how do you think the existence of these horseshoe-bent columns should affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

Respectfully,
Myriad

I know the ability of hardcore-debunker to "sell" abnormal things as something banal especially here. Nevertheless I am surprised.
You seriously suggest, that a steel beam can turn through 360° inside the pile, after the collapse.

[NobbyNobbs]

Folks, folks, you are all missing the real problem. I am very surprised, in this group of highly intelligent, resourceful, and informed people, that no one has seen the real issue yet.

It is quite obvious from the evidence at hand that the towers were brought down by a giant, invisible, stampeding horse. Three horseshoes have been found to confirm this, beyond all reasonable doubt.


The real conspiracy is: where is the fourth horseshoe???

[NobbyNobbs]

I know the ability of hardcore-debunker to "sell" abnormal things as something banal especially here. Nevertheless I am surprised.
You seriously suggest, that a steel beam can turn through 360° inside the pile, after the collapse.

Um....In case you haven't seen a horsehoe before, it is U-shaped. That's 180 degrees. What you are describing is more commonly known as a "circle".

And in answer to your question, "yes". Googled Sherman's Neckties yet?

[bio]

Um....In case you haven't seen a horsehoe before, it is U-shaped. That's 180 degrees. What you are describing is more commonly known as a "circle".

And in answer to your question, "yes". Googled Sherman's Neckties yet?

Is this a joke?:confused:

[jhunter1163]

Bio, you're missing the point. Sherman's troops were able to create those things with lower temperatures and less force than existed in the rubble pile of WTC7.

Besides, why would the eeeeeebil gubmint use enough thermite to bend columns but not enough to sever them?

[Disbelief]

I know the ability of hardcore-debunker to "sell" abnormal things as something banal especially here. Nevertheless I am surprised.
You seriously suggest, that a steel beam can turn through 360° inside the pile, after the collapse.

You really need this explained to you? Seriously? Do you think the pile was solid? Were there no open areas?

[Grizzly Bear]

I know the ability of hardcore-debunker to "sell" abnormal things as something banal especially here. Nevertheless I am surprised.
You seriously suggest, that a steel beam can turn through 360° inside the pile, after the collapse.

I'm curious bio, what is the ultimate conclusion you're attempting to draw based on the horseshoes? Because I'm not seeing any relevance whatsoever to thermite or thermate. If anything, by claiming that such flexing requires high temperatures you're then only confirming what has been known about the material properties of steel by engineers since planners began using it as a viable construction material in commercial buildings; that under sustained static loading columns heated to 600oC or higher will begin to sag, and buckle.

Please enlighten me on what your conclusion is based on your findings...

[T.A.M.]

Sherman's Neckties


Sherman's neckties were a phenomenon of the American Civil War. Named after William Tecumseh Sherman, a Union Army general, Sherman's neckties were railway rails destroyed by heating them until they were malleable and twisting them into loops resembling neckties, often around trees. Since the Confederacy had limited supplies of iron, and few foundries to roll the rails, this destruction was very difficult to repair.

The neckties were created in accordance with an explicit order from Sherman in his Atlanta Campaign, dated July 18, 1864:

...twisting the bars when hot. Officers should be instructed that bars simply bent may be used again, but if when red hot they are twisted out of line they cannot be used again. Pile the ties into shape for a bonfire, put the rails across and when red hot in the middle, let a man at each end twist the bar so that its surface becomes spiral.

After three days, only one Confederate railroad line leading into Atlanta remained intact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_neckties

TAM:)

[Hokulele]

Ahem. See my post #7.


Oh, you definitely get the credit for being the first to mention this, I just figured the more people who attempt to point bio in the correct direction, the more obvious his avoidance would be. :)

[AJM8125]

Folks, folks, you are all missing the real problem. I am very surprised, in this group of highly intelligent, resourceful, and informed people, that no one has seen the real issue yet.

It is quite obvious from the evidence at hand that the towers were brought down by a giant, invisible, stampeding horse. Three horseshoes have been found to confirm this, beyond all reasonable doubt.


The real conspiracy is: where is the fourth horseshoe???

Why, it's being held in Iron Mountain, of course. Along with the passengers and crews of the four 9/11 flights, the aircraft themselves, all the eyewitnesses from New York, Washington and Pensylvania, the 85 Pentagon videos and any other damning evidence left behind by operatives who pulled the most intricate conspiracy in the history of the world.

[NobbyNobbs]

Is this a joke?:confused:

Bio, if you had bothered to read the link, you'd know that a steel rail can be bent into a U-shape through the use of two men, a wood bonfire, and the occasional use of a sturdy tree as leverage.

The forces applied during the collapse of the towers were certainly greater than two men could apply. Therefore, yes, I am serious, and no, this is not a joke.

[NobbyNobbs]

In fact, within three days, three rail lines were ruined. Doesn't take much at all to bend steel, when it is heated.

[bio]

Oh, you definitely get the credit for being the first to mention this, I just figured the more people who attempt to point bio in the correct direction, the more obvious his avoidance would be. :)

sorry - I cannot follow you...

I see no way, how this horseshoe could be formed inside the pile.
horseshoe: (http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/image/horseshoe_r1_c2.jpg)

What do you want to say with "Sherman's Neckties"? These rails were formed intentionally by man. You are talking about WTC-beams, which should have been formed inside a pile to an horseshoe Let me say it so: If the rails would have been inside a pile, it had been much more difficult to form it to an horseshoe ... Yes, yes it is possible to form the rails perhaps 10, 20, 30 or even perhaps 90 grade, but not more .... not inside a pile

[Hokulele]

sorry - I cannot follow you...

I see no way, how this horseshoe could be formed inside the pile.
horseshoe: (http://thewebfairy.com/911/h-effect/image/horseshoe_r1_c2.jpg)


Why not? What is preventing this from happening?

What do you want to say with "Sherman's Neckties"? These rails were formed intentionally by man. You are talking about WTC-beams, which should have been formed inside a pile to an horseshoe Let me say it so: If the rails would have been inside a pile, it had been much more difficult to form it to an horseshoe ... Yes, yes it is possible to form the rails perhaps 10, 20, 30 or even perhaps 90 grade, but not more .... not inside a pile


Again, why not? Gravity can exert as much force on the free end of a beam as two men can, especially when you have the weight of the rest of the pile contributing.

Granted, it would be more difficult, but not impossible. This is most likely why there are only a few horseshoes documented here, rather than hundreds.


ETA: And lets say these were bent intentionally. What exactly does that prove?

[bio]

Why not? What is preventing this from happening?




Again, why not? Gravity can exert as much force on the free end of a beam as two men can, especially when you have the weight of the rest of the pile contributing.

Granted, it would be more difficult, but not impossible. This is most likely why there are only a few horseshoes documented here, rather than hundreds.


ETA: And lets say these were bent intentionally. What exactly does that prove?


Please provide a scenario, how inside the pile a horseshoe could be formed.

What does it prove?
1. If the beams stood inside the fire-zone, then NIST ignored them in its investigation.
or..
2. If the beams stood outside the fire-zone, then there must have been high heat outside the fire-zone, too.

[Hokulele]

Please provide a scenario, how inside the pile a horseshoe could be formed.


Scenario 1:

One beam falls across another in such a way that it has little support on the ends, but the beam supporting the middle is itself well-supported. Everything then heats up. The beam starts to sag at each end, losing those supports, so now it is draped across the supporting beam. The ends continue to sag, resulting in a horseshoe.

Scenario 2:

A beam ends up in a roughly vertical position, and as it heats up, the top end sags in the direction of its lean, until it forms a roughly horseshoe shape.

Scenario 3:

A beam is in the middle of a bunch of burning debris. As the material burns, the pile gradually settles, deforming the beam.

Scenario 4:

A support beam is still connected to a section of the building in the debris pile, and is roughly vertical. As the debris pile shifts (as all non-compacted piles will), the building section shifts and/or burns and/or is broken up by various stresses. The heat plus the movement of the section to which the beam is attached deforms it into a horseshoe.


Hey, this is kind of fun! Anyone else want to play?

[jhunter1163]

Scenario 5:

A beam ends up in a horizontal position, supported at the ends over an air space. Heat from the pile is conducted through the beam, causing the unsupported area in the center to sag and form a horseshoe shape.

[eromitlab]

Scenario 6:

A beam is in a fairly steady position deep inside the pile, nearly vertical, near a fire that is able to heat the beam. The pile shifts above and changes the stresses on this particular beam. Eventually, the combination of structural stresses and heat weakening causes the beam to give way, the load above the beam pushing the top end down. This causes a shift in the pile, causing the bottom end of the beam to come loose from its position in the pile. The once-vertical beam ends up nearly horizontal in its new position, bent into a "horseshoe".

[WildCat]

Besides, why would the eeeeeebil gubmint use enough thermite to bend columns but not enough to sever them?
And how would they bend them with thermite? Or explosives?

Once again, bio makes no sense at all.

[1337m4n]

Unless explosives or thermite or thermate or space beams explain this "better" than what was already known to be in the Towers, I see no need for this thread to be in Conpiracy Theories.

[1337m4n]

And how would they bend them with thermite? Or explosives?

Once again, bio makes no sense at all.

It's just a cry for help when conspiracy theorists do this. They want so badly for 9/11 to be an inside job, but have no evidence. So they latch onto anything--anything at all--that is even remotely anomolous about 9/11, without even thinking about whether said anomaly fits into any coherent conspiracy theory.

The problem could be solved if they would simply stop wanting 9/11 to be an inside job and instead start being genuinely curious about whether 9/11 was an inside job.

[WildCat]

Drsgs6-3Qlg

Must be fun to be a Civil War reenactor!

eta: just noticed that one of the "related videos" for this is Loose Change Final Cut Pt. 1! :D

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It's just a cry for help when conspiracy theorists do this. They want so badly for 9/11 to be an inside job, but have no evidence. So they latch onto anything--anything at all--that is even remotely anomolous about 9/11, without even thinking about whether said anomaly fits into any coherent conspiracy theory.


Also, asking a small group of people on the Internet and then taking their inability to answer definitively as some kind of victory over hundreds of respected scientists is... baffling... to be nice about it.

[WildCat]

More symmetry, this is getting weird! If you do a Google image search for "Sherman's neckties", on page 3 there's a pic of spooked911's famous chicken wire experiment on DU (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x56836)!

:dl:

[AJM8125]

I think I've located the horse's head. Now if we can find the rest of him, we can join the troofers as they go laughing off to the cracker factory. And no, I'm not talking about the security guard.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_26832492cb2282b8b2.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14359)

[TjW]

I think I've located the horse's head. Now if we can find the rest of him, we can join the troofers as they go laughing off to the cracker factory. And no, I'm not talking about the security guard.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_26832492cb2282b8b2.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14359)

Well, bio's on the thread, so we have the other end. Now all we need is the middle.

[Dr Adequate]

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3680/firewh8.jpg

[eromitlab]

Left side of that picture, just above the fire truck... do I see a few "horseshoes" among those twisted steel beams?

[Grizzly Bear]

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3680/firewh8.jpg

Speaking of which..................... (http://www.softwood.org/AITC_eVersion/EN/p3.htm)

[AJM8125]

This pair of whore shoes was recovered from WTC 7 just after the recovery... oops, horseshoes. Sorry. Carry on.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_26832492cd8d2d22fb.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14360)

[jhunter1163]

Well, bio's on the thread, so we have the other end. Now all we need is the middle.

Well struck.

[bio]

thank you for your scenarios. I doubt, that they are realistic. At least I won an imagination.

[bio]

Scenario 6:

A beam is in a fairly steady position deep inside the pile, nearly vertical, near a fire that is able to heat the beam. The pile shifts above and changes the stresses on this particular beam. Eventually, the combination of structural stresses and heat weakening causes the beam to give way, the load above the beam pushing the top end down. This causes a shift in the pile, causing the bottom end of the beam to come loose from its position in the pile. The once-vertical beam ends up nearly horizontal in its new position, bent into a "horseshoe".

... what happened with the material under the beam?

[Foolmewunz]

<<snip>>

At least I won an imagination.

Oooh, is this charades? Is it a book title? Name of a movie? Give us a clue! How many syllables, Mario?

Oh, I know... It's 20 Questions? How many guesses do we get until you tell us what the Hell you mean?

Did you not have an imagination before, and someone just awarded you one? (Naaah, we can see you have quite the imagination, so it can't be that.)

Okay, that's my one question... 19 to go.

[Sunstealer]

Why are truthers so devoid of any experience of reality? The simple matter of fact is that when steel is heated it becomes more ductile, less strong that is it's easier to bend. All you need is heat and pressure and it's going to start to bend - just watch how a blacksmith will shape rods, see how heat is used to aid shape formation in industry. Infact it will sag under it's own weight in large enough sections. This is obvious so why can't truthers see that it's obvious? If you look at post #67 you can see lots of "horse shoes" so why all the drama?

The other thing that bio probably hasn't ever heard of or come across is the mechanism of creep.

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/thyd/ne161/jlrhoads/creep.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(deformation)

[Dave Rogers]

thank you for your scenarios. I doubt, that they are realistic.

That's six more scenarios than you've put forward, and your only response is personal incredulity. Would you like to put forward one of your own, so we can determine whether it's more or less realistic?

Dave

[BenBurch]

Somebody hasn't googled "Sherman's Bowties" yet.

http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-84267.html

[dtugg]

You guys, I think it is obvious that thermite made those horseshoes. Either that or magic explosives which make no sound.

[T.A.M.]

Please provide a scenario, how inside the pile a horseshoe could be formed.

What does it prove?
1. If the beams stood inside the fire-zone, then NIST ignored them in its investigation.
or..
2. If the beams stood outside the fire-zone, then there must have been high heat outside the fire-zone, too.

Your entire proposition is ridiculous.

You just said a minute ago that the point was that these "horseshoes" formed too great an angle to be formed in the pile. Well what the hell does the temperature have to do with what angle they made with the horseshoes? Once hot enough to bend, they simply had to bend.

If, IF NIST ingored them, it was only because they are completely irrelevant to the cause of collapse, which was their mission. I am sure they also ignored the alleged claims of "molten steel"...why? Also irrelevant to the CAUSE of collapse.

your horse shoes are the red herrings of red herrings. EOS.

TAM:)

[bio]

You guys, I think it is obvious that thermite made those horseshoes. Either that or magic explosives which make no sound.

IF the horseshoes were made accidationally inside the pile (according to you), then I ask, where did the immense heat come from (around 1000 C)? Only parts of 5 or 6 floors of 110 floors were on fire. It crashed, and the most of the pile began to cook. According the Bechtel, the pile was always tremendous hot. But I think, this is part of an other discussion.

[dtugg]

IF the horseshoes were made accidationally inside the pile (according to you), then I ask, where did the immense heat come from (around 1000 C)? Only parts of 5 or 6 floors of 110 floors were on fire. It crashed, and the most of the pile began to cook. According the Bechtel, the pile was always tremendous hot. But I think, this is part of an other discussion.

Where did the heat come from? What kind of question is that? It came from stuff slowing burning in the pile. I thought everybody knew that.

[bio]

Where did the heat come from? What kind of question is that? It came from stuff slowing burning in the pile. I thought everybody knew that.

such fires do reach around 600 C after long time, the beams had to have around 1000 C at least ("yellow hot").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoulder

[dtugg]

such fires do reach around 600 C after long time, the beams had to have around 1000 C at least ("yellow hot").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoulder

If wikipedia says so it must be true! It's not as if the WTC pile were your average smoldering pile anyway.

Where do you think the heat came from?

Explosives? Oops! Explosives don't leave piles of debris hot for weeks after they are used!

Thermite? Oops! Thermite stops releasing heat as soon as it's done reacting!

Well?

[WildCat]

IF the horseshoes were made accidationally
You tink they were made on purpose? If so, how and why? :confused:

[DGM]

Hey bio;
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17074492d6c63867d2.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14365)

Are these the makings of horseshoes I'm seeing? Wait, is that a WOODEN beam they're bent around? Odd things happening in chaotic situations is not odd, It's expected (the real world is funny like that).

[JimBenArm]

So if not all the horseshoes were made during the collapse, and not all of them were done accidentally, what exactly would be the purpose? What would the reason to make them be? How would this cover anything up?

"Mr. President, there's a real possibility they might figure this out!"

"I know! Let's bend some girders and toss them in the pile!"

"Wow! That's going to really throw them off the trail!"

Do truthers ever think anything through before they post it?

(This is a purely rhetorical question. I know the answer!)

[bio]

Hey bio;
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17074492d6c63867d2.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14365)

Are these the makings of horseshoes I'm seeing? Wait, is that a WOODEN beam they're bent around? Odd things happening in chaotic situations is not odd, It's expected (the real world is funny like that).

this was not made inside a pile!

We are talking about massive steel beams of the WTC. According to your theory the beams lied inside the rubble pile, over them material, under them material, and then it happened: The beam was formed into a horseshoe. This sounds weird to me.

[Grizzly Bear]

this was not made inside a pile!
The beam was formed into a horseshoe. This sounds weird to me.

I'm willing to hazard that the beams were formed either during the collapse (depending on their location relative to fires and the impact region) or post collapse. However weird you think it is is irrelevant in the sense that what happened to the beams has nothing to do with incendiaries, explosives, or anything else that would be particularly unusual.

The beams don't need to be be exposed to temperatures at or near their melting point to bow in that fashion, particularly if they were sustaining a load at the time of exposure. The image posted shows that under certain circumstances the beams can in fact bow under their OWN weight when exposed to high enough temperatures

Once again... I'm not seeing any relevance to any therm*te implication if that's the conclusion you're drawing from them.

[Horatius]

According to your theory the beams lied inside the rubble pile, over them material, under them material, and then it happened: The beam was formed into a horseshoe. This sounds weird to me.



And do you imagine that the pile was entirely uniform? Can you imagine that there might have been voids in the pile, or areas composed of more- or less-compressible material, that might allow a beam to move as it deforms under a load?

[DGM]

this was not made inside a pile!

We are talking about massive steel beams of the WTC. According to your theory the beams lied inside the rubble pile, over them material, under them material, and then it happened: The beam was formed into a horseshoe. This sounds weird to me.

Why do you think it's weird? What insight do you draw on to reach this conclusion?

As far as "my theory" goes, I think they formed during and after the collapse along with during the clean-up. Have you ever seen an excavator pull a ruble pile apart? It's not exactly subtle.

[bio]

well, I am not an expert to decide, weather your scenarios are weird or not. Let the reader decide that and the real experts ... like gravy :D

[Hokulele]

well, I am not an expert to decide, weather your scenarios are weird or not...


And yet, you did so.

[Grizzly Bear]

well, I am not an expert to decide, weather your scenarios are weird or not. Let the reader decide that and the real experts ... like gravy :D

So do you have an answer yet regarding what it is I should be thinking? You seem to believe you've made a compelling case for something, but you're being awfully vague. What is the conclusion that you've drawn from the material you presented?

[T.A.M.]

i'm willing to hazard that the beams were formed either during the collapse (depending on their location relative to fires and the impact region) or post collapse. however weird you think it is is irrelevant in the sense that what happened to the beams has nothing to do with incendiaries, explosives, or anything else that would be particularly unusual.

the beams don't need to be be exposed to temperatures at or near their melting point to bow in that fashion, particularly if they were sustaining a load at the time of exposure. The image posted shows that under certain circumstances the beams can in fact bow under their own weight when exposed to high enough temperatures

once again... I'm not seeing any relevance to any therm*te implication if that's the conclusion you're drawing from them.

bingo!!!

Tam:)

[NobbyNobbs]

this was not made inside a pile!

We are talking about massive steel beams of the WTC. According to your theory the beams lied inside the rubble pile, over them material, under them material, and then it happened: The beam was formed into a horseshoe. This sounds weird to me.

Light has a particle-wave duality. A photon of light does not "decide" whether to be a particle or a wave until after it has been detected. Despite having taken courses covering this subject, I have never been able to fully wrap my head around it. The whole idea sounds weird to me.

However, the fact that I have trouble internalizing it, the fact that it sounds weird to me, does not negate the possibility of it being truth. That, and the fact that I recognize there are many, many others who understand the subject better than I do, and they agree that light has a particle-wave duality. At some point, you have to set aside your own limitations and trust the experts. Especially when they are numerous and in agreement.

[Myriad]

This question remains relevant, one might say crucial (as in, being the crux of the matter), and unanswered:

For the sake of argument, let's suppose -- despite the known existence of sustained high temperatures inside the rubble pile, and despite the obvious likelihood of extremely high forces and torques acting on various pieces of the chaotically piled debris in the rubble piles, and despite the fact that the building was on fire and that the overloading of the core columns to the point of failure in or near the floors subjected to fire is part of the generally accepted collapse scenario -- that the bending of several steel beams during or subsequent to the collapse is unexplainable to science. (Cue spooky music).

So, then, how do you think the existence of these horseshoe-bent columns should affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[bio]

This question remains relevant, one might say crucial (as in, being the crux of the matter), and unanswered:

For the sake of argument, let's suppose -- despite the known existence of sustained high temperatures inside the rubble pile, and despite the obvious likelihood of extremely high forces and torques acting on various pieces of the chaotically piled debris in the rubble piles, and despite the fact that the building was on fire and that the overloading of the core columns to the point of failure in or near the floors subjected to fire is part of the generally accepted collapse scenario -- that the bending of several steel beams during or subsequent to the collapse is unexplainable to science. (Cue spooky music).

So, then, how do you think the existence of these horseshoe-bent columns should affect our understanding of 9/11 history?

Respectfully,
Myriad

post 55 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4226750#post4226750)

[eromitlab]

... what happened with the material under the beam?

That material doesn't have to move. It can, but it doesn't have to. The movement above a vertical beam causing it to move at the top and bend in the middle could, conceivably, cause the bottom to move. If there's a void around the base, it could move into that space when the movement above causes the pile to shift.

[Grizzly Bear]

Please provide a scenario, how inside the pile a horseshoe could be formed.
Simple, it was heated, and sustained a sufficient load for a long enough period of time that plastic creep (http://www.ides.com/property_descriptions/ASTMD2990.asp) set in. Occam's Razor (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/occamraz.html) explains this reasonably well.


What does it prove?
1. If the beams stood inside the fire-zone, then NIST ignored them in its investigation.
or..
2. If the beams stood outside the fire-zone, then there must have been high heat outside the fire-zone, too.

And in both scenarios; the first indirectly, and the second more upfront you imply that some external influence must have been the culprit. Which introduces the question once again for the n'th time. What if any relevance do the structural members in question have anything to do with the conclusion which you're implying? None display any characteristics which would flag for incendiaries or explosives, if anything you have proven everyone else's contention that steel in fact DOES lose strength when exposed to high temperatures, and can in fact deform when a load is applied to the weakened member, be it from the member's own weight, or otherwise.

[DGM]

well, I am not an expert to decide, weather your scenarios are weird or not. Let the reader decide that and the real experts ... like gravy :D
I didn't ask about your expertise I said "insight". You consider the "horseshoes" to be weird, I asked you what "insight" (knowledge) you used to arrive at this conclusion. Why is it "weird"? Did it come to you in a dream or did someone tell you it was? Just saying something is "weird" without an explanation is something my 10 year old does. He's in 5th grade, are you smarter than a 5th grader? (that sounds like a fun name for a TV show:D)


By the way I don't think the scenarios have anything to do with the "weather".

[X]

Hey bio;
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17074492d6c63867d2.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14365)

Are these the makings of horseshoes I'm seeing? Wait, is that a WOODEN beam they're bent around? Odd things happening in chaotic situations is not odd, It's expected (the real world is funny like that).


My friend's garage caught fire a couple weeks ago.
He lost a lot of stuff, including his new welder, his motorbike, and some things that belonged to his grandparents. He got burns on his hand, and the whole garage is going to have to be torn down (including the deck mounted on its roof).
Fortunately he had insurance, and his hand is healing extremely well.
A rather lousy, slightly-premature, birthday present for him.



I bring this up because, inside the garage, he had a metal ladder hanging on one wall.
This ladder was bowed downwards (convex, in mathy language). Heavily.
The wall, however, was not bowed. And it was made of wood.

I'll see if I can get the pictures, if you want.


The point, quite simply, is that fire weakens metal. Fire can weaken it to the point where it can't even support its own weight, never mind additional load.


If this were to occur in a building, it can potentially have disastrous consequences.

[Foolmewunz]

accidationally




I love it. :spjimlad::spjimlad:

[Dave Rogers]

What does it prove?
1. If the beams stood inside the fire-zone, then NIST ignored them in its investigation.
or..
2. If the beams stood outside the fire-zone, then there must have been high heat outside the fire-zone, too.

Since we already know that NIST didn't specifically refer to these beams in its investigation report, then (1) is a distinct possibility. A perfectly innocent scenario in which this might have been the case is one where these beams lacked sufficiently clear identifying marks for NIST to be able to identify their original location, in which case any conclusions drawn from their condition would be pure speculation. Since we know that measured temperatures in the rubble pile were sufficiently high to soften steel, then (2) is also a distinct possibility. Since we also know that the forces involved in the collapse were sufficiently high to deform and break steel support columns, there is also a third possibility; that the columns stood outside the fire zone, did not experience particularly high temperatures, but were bent by some random combination of applied forces in the course of the collapse, a highly chaotic process which would be expected to produce some very extreme deformations in structural components.

OK, I've looked at your two possibilities, neither of which proves an inside job or any failure on the part of NIST, and added a third which also doesn't prove either. Would you like to take the next step and explain how the implications you've suggested in post #55 are actually relevant?

Dave

[T.A.M.]

Please provide a scenario, how inside the pile a horseshoe could be formed.

What does it prove?
1. If the beams stood inside the fire-zone, then NIST ignored them in its investigation.
or..
2. If the beams stood outside the fire-zone, then there must have been high heat outside the fire-zone, too.

1. SO what? NIST may have ignored a lot of things. Things that were IRRELEVANT to the cause of collapse.

2. Which fire zone are you talking about? The pre-collapse fire zone? The only relevancy to high temps outside the pre-collapse fire zone, is if you prove (A) that THE ONLY way for the "horseshoes" to form was from the pre-collapse fires, which you have not done, and then (B) that the steel that formed the "horseshoes" came from outside the zone. You have done this either.

TAM:)

[bio]

1. SO what? NIST may have ignored a lot of things. Things that were IRRELEVANT to the cause of collapse.

Heat and gravity were not relevant, which formed the horseshoes? What is relevant for you?


2. Which fire zone are you talking about? The pre-collapse fire zone? The only relevancy to high temps outside the pre-collapse fire zone, is if you prove (A) that THE ONLY way for the "horseshoes" to form was from the pre-collapse fires, which you have not done, and then (B) that the steel that formed the "horseshoes" came from outside the zone. You have done this either.

TAM:)

of course about the pro-collapse fire zone. NIST said, that "these core columns represent less than 1 percent of the core columns on floors involved with fire (...)." My two additional horseshoes were not included. This could mean, that they did not stand inside the fire. Nevertheless they became very hot ("yellow hot") according to experts. How could this be?

[Sunstealer]

How on earth does the fact that these beams are bowed to such an extent confirm conspiracy just because NIST didn't include them in it's findings? Did NIST study whether the sky was blue or that the earth was round on 9/11? If they didn't then why not?

You don't understand the first thing about steel let alone how it behaves under stress or when heated. The likely-hood is that these beams reached a temperature under sufficient stress pre-collapse, however, this doesn't rule out that such phenomenon couldn't occur in the rubble pile because you don't need very high temperatures or stresses in order to reduce the strength of steels (I don't consider 800°C to be hot and steel loses 90% of it's strength around that temp). See "Sherman bowties".

Look at this graph and try to understand it. Then apply the data to a real world scenario.

http://www.softwood.org/AITC_eVersion/images/G3c.gif

[funk de fino]

Heat and gravity were not relevant, which formed the horseshoes? What is relevant for you?

of course about the pro-collapse fire zone. NIST said, that "these core columns represent less than 1 percent of the core columns on floors involved with fire (...)." My two additional horseshoes were not included. This could mean, that they did not stand inside the fire. Nevertheless they became very hot ("yellow hot") according to experts. How could this be?

What location in the buildings were "your" horseshoes from?

[dtugg]

This could mean, that they did not stand inside the fire. Nevertheless they became very hot ("yellow hot") according to experts. How could this be?

I'm guessing thermite.

[WildCat]

Has bio explained why the horseshoes matter wrt a conspiracy theory yet?

[Grizzly Bear]

How on earth does the fact that these beams are bowed to such an extent confirm conspiracy just because NIST didn't include them in it's findings? Did NIST study whether the sky was blue or that the earth was round on 9/11? If they didn't then why not?

You don't understand the first thing about steel let alone how it behaves under stress or when heated. The likely-hood is that these beams reached a temperature under sufficient stress pre-collapse, however, this doesn't rule out that such phenomenon couldn't occur in the rubble pile because you don't need very high temperatures or stresses in order to reduce the strength of steels (I don't consider 800°C to be hot and steel loses 90% of it's strength around that temp). See "Sherman bowties".

Look at this graph and try to understand it. Then apply the data to a real world scenario.

http://www.softwood.org/AITC_eVersion/images/G3c.gif
The hilarious irony is that without intending to do so he's already proving your point...

[A W Smith]

who is saying that these horseshoes weren't bent during the collapse?

who is saying that they weren't bent during the collapse and then subjected to heat afterward in the burning pile?

What is the point of this thread?

Bio are you going to dance around innuendo or make your point? Is it a language issue? Or are you just very bad at communicating? Or like almost all other truthers are you avoiding making a point because you know you will be backed into an indefensible corner?

[bio]

What location in the buildings were "your" horseshoes from?

How do you interpret following sentence:
”Four of the core columns with known as-built locations were examined (...)"
from: 6.6.2 Core Columns Exposed to Fire

[WildCat]

:words:
bio, do you intend to explain what any of this has to do with a conspiracy?

[bio]

I'm guessing thermite.

Have you been parallelized by Prof. Jones working theory? :)

[bio]

How on earth does the fact that these beams are bowed to such an extent confirm conspiracy just because NIST didn't include them in it's findings? Did NIST study whether the sky was blue or that the earth was round on 9/11? If they didn't then why not?

You don't understand the first thing about steel let alone how it behaves under stress or when heated. The likely-hood is that these beams reached a temperature under sufficient stress pre-collapse, however, this doesn't rule out that such phenomenon couldn't occur in the rubble pile because you don't need very high temperatures or stresses in order to reduce the strength of steels (I don't consider 800°C to be hot and steel loses 90% of it's strength around that temp). See "Sherman bowties".

Look at this graph and try to understand it. Then apply the data to a real world scenario.

http://www.softwood.org/AITC_eVersion/images/G3c.gif

thank you for this interesting graphic!

According to Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl and the expert in this video ("relics from the rubble") it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way. Try seeing the video "relics from the rubble" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM)

[bio]

bio, do you intend to explain what any of this has to do with a conspiracy?

I am sorry, that you fail to understand.

[bio]

Since we already know that NIST didn't specifically refer to these beams in its investigation report, then (1) is a distinct possibility. A perfectly innocent scenario in which this might have been the case is one where these beams lacked sufficiently clear identifying marks for NIST to be able to identify their original location, in which case any conclusions drawn from their condition would be pure speculation. (...)

Dave

Did NIST write something about this identifying process and how this process could fail? thanks.

[Grizzly Bear]

thank you for this interesting graphic!

According to Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl and the expert in this video ("relics from the rubble") it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way. Try seeing the video "relics from the rubble" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM)
And temperatures ranging from 400oC (~800oF) to 1,000oC (upwards of 1,800oF) are well within range of allowing this to happen. So will you ever answer how such a feature even remotely suggests therm*te?

Because all you have proven right now is your complete incompetence in the subject of how steel reacts when it is stressed and heated... even when having the material you need to know spoon fed...

[Grizzly Bear]

I am sorry, that you fail to understand.

I know what you're claiming, but It's apparent you haven't a clue about the material properties of steel to begin with. It doesn't appear that your argument has any point at all other than an assertion of the consequent, and circular argumentation.

[bio]

bio, do you intend to explain what any of this has to do with a conspiracy?

For all:

If we can exclude the forming of an horseshoe inside the pile,
and
If we can exclude, that the beams come from the fire-zone,
then
we have proof, that beams (outside the fire-zone) were heat up to at least 1100 C before and during the crash.

[Grizzly Bear]

For all:
If we can exclude the forming of an horseshoe inside the pile,
and
If we can exclude, that the beams come from the fire-zone,


And we determine this by...?

...were heated up to at least 1100 C before and during the crash.
Don't you mean collapse??

[bio]

And temperatures ranging from 400oC (~800oF) to 1,000oC (upwards of 1,800oF) are well within range of allowing this to happen. So will you ever answer how such a feature even remotely suggests therm*te?

Because all you have proven right now is your complete incompetence in the subject of how steel reacts when it is stressed and heated... even when having the material you need to know spoon fed...

2000 Fahrenheit = 1094 Celsius

[bio]

And we determine this by...?


Don't you mean collapse??

yes.

[jhunter1163]

For all:

If we can exclude the forming of an horseshoe inside the pile,

We can't. See the scenarios presented above.

and
If we can exclude, that the beams come from the fire-zone,

We can't.


then
we have proof, that beams (outside the fire-zone) were heat up to at least 1100 C before and during the crash.

We don't, as mechanical deformation is not ruled out.

[TjW]

Have you been parallelized by Prof. Jones working theory? :)

No, I believe he's still running on serial logic.

[A W Smith]

thank you for this interesting graphic!

According to Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl and the expert in this video ("relics from the rubble") it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way. Try seeing the video "relics from the rubble" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM)


What evidence do you have that that particular piece of steel , Or any horseshoe piece of debris for that matter, was not bent during the collapse of a 110 story tower weighing in at 288,100 metric tons? Are you drawing a conclusion that it was bent from heat alone simply because the subject in this video makes the comparison that it would take a thousand degrees to bend this shape? that would be a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent. (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html)

[Sunstealer]

thank you for this interesting graphic!

According to Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl and the expert in this video ("relics from the rubble") it need "thousand of degree" to form the horseshoe in that way. Try seeing the video "relics from the rubble" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzTEIqkZKIM)So Bio takes a ball-park figure and sets it in stone. Bio - at 760°C A36 steel will fully recrystallize so if strain rates are low the recovery rate will be high enough to allow large deformations at that temperature without cracking. This temperature would have been attainable in the rubble pile.

Prof. Dr. Astaneh-Asl sounds as if he's giving a figure based upon the assumption that deformation was occurring before and during the collapse where strain rates would be much higher and therefore a higher temperature would be needed. Around a 1000°C sounds about right, so considering that assumption, then it is what we would expect to see in a fire. I would say that this scenario is far more likely given the events. Remember that material does not have to be in a flame in order to get hot.

I really can't see where you are going with this. You need to explain clearly and concisely why this piece of steel odd. Just because NIST didn't examine it doesn't mean that it's because if they did it would reveal some sort of conspiracy. What sort of information is this piece of steel going to yield and how does that prove a cover up?

[T.A.M.]

For the love of god, bio, could you quit babbling, and obfuscating, and simply state HOW YOU FEEL THE ALLEGED "HORSESHOES" PROVIDE PROOF, IN ANY FORM, OF 9/11 BEING AN INSIDE JOB?

If not, you are just babbling on about irrelevant elements of the collapses.

TAM:)

[WildCat]

For all:

If we can exclude the forming of an horseshoe inside the pile,
and
If we can exclude, that the beams come from the fire-zone,
then
we have proof, that beams (outside the fire-zone) were heat up to at least 1100 C before and during the crash.
1. You haven't excluded any of those things.
2. You haven't shown there's anything at all suspicious about your "horseshoes".