Is Magic an Art?

[Legend]

Simply what the title says.

Your opinions?

Alex.

[Twiler]

I think you need to be more specific. Stage magic or 'real' magic?

[Legend]

I think stage magic is an interesting one.

But both.

Close-up, stage magic even flourishes (even though it's technically not magic).

Everything it entails I guess.

Alex.

[SleuthM]

Stage Magic, well performed, can be an Art, Art being defined as 'something which enhances your appreciation of the world around you' (there are other ways, but Art can is one). The stage magic shows I saw as a child helped me to appreciate the 'rich fabric of life'. I learned for instance that being fooled some of the time is no tragedy. Stood me in good stead for the rest of my life. Only Art can do that.

[leonAzul]

Close-up, stage magic even flourishes (even though it's technically not magic).



For the sake of discussion, what do you mean by "technically not magic"?

That you feel the need to qualify the difference between "stage magic" and "real magic" already indicates that the word "magic" alone is insufficient to convey your intentions without further qualification.

What most uses of the word "magic" have in common is the sense that the practitioner knows how to do things that appear arcane, if not occult, to the average observer. The successful magician is quite shrewdly observant of human behavior as well as materials science, although he too can be just as deluded as any other superstitious believer of woo. (The character José Arcadio Buendía from Gabriel García Márquez' novel One Hundred Years of Solitutude comes immediately to mind.)

As for magic as a supernatural phenomenon, well that surely is an art: the art of BS. Just ask any stand-up philosopher. (Think Mel Brooks applying for unemployment benefits in The History of the World, Part I :D )

While we're at it, I suppose we could spend the rest of the thread defining "What is Art?"

:bgrin:

[Lanzy]

I've seen art I thought was magical.

Stage magic is art; what other kind of magic is there?
"Real" magic is stage magic.

What are you asking again?

[Ron_Tomkins]

I think you need to be more specific. Stage magic or 'real' magic?

There's no evidence for "real magic".

Stage Magic is a form of entertainment and/or art/.

[fuelair]

For most a skill, for the best, an Art. Like cooking, drawing, etc.

[SleuthM]

This is the JREF Forum - could there have been any doubt that 'Magic' here is meant
in the sense of 'Stage Magic' or figuratively as in 'magical moments' but not as
in 'Voodoo Magic'? Or did you mean yet something else, Legend?

Both 'Stage Magic' or the creation of 'magical moments' can be an Art.

[linusrichard]

Real magic doesn't exist. Would it be an art if it did? It would be a form of science if it did, and thus, paradoxically, not real magic. Also, I think, not an art.

Stage magic is an art.

[Legend]

For the sake of discussion, what do you mean by "technically not magic"?

That you feel the need to qualify the difference between "stage magic" and "real magic" already indicates that the word "magic" alone is insufficient to convey your intentions without further qualification.

You're reading too far into it. I was just giving examples upon the request of someone else.

FTR: Stage magic = Jeff Mcbride type stuff, zig-zag lady, larger productions.

Then there's close-up magic, such as card tricks like Triumph and the Chicago Opener, or coin magic, vanishes and productions. There are just different categories.

I wouldn't say that "Flourishes" are magic. They are possibly an adjunct of magic.

Opinions,
Alex.

[arthwollipot]

I would agree with another poster here that it is a skill, but if you're very very good at it it can be an art.

BTW, what are "flourishes"?

[Legend]

When I say "flourishes" I mean "XCM" (Extreme Card Manipulation -- yes the acronym is wrong).

This is with reference to cards. Amazing "moves" that people can do with cards.

Flourishes isn't really the right word to use, but I'm talking about XCM, for future reference.

BTW: It's interesting to note that I was arguing this against fellow magicians. I said it was (the exact same word that others here have used) a, "skill".

We skeptics have a similar mind.

Alex.

[arthwollipot]

Okay... what's XCM? Can you give an example?

Remember, this isn't Conjurer's Corner - I'm not familiar with what may be standard terms in conjuring circles.

[Legend]

Of course, that's fine.

Basically it's the offspring of a pack of cards and a person with a lot of time on their hands.

Here's an example video of Extreme Card Manipulation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FUvgKSU7GY

As you'll notice, many consider this an art.

Watch that all, it's one of the most entertaining 4:00 you could hope to experience.

Alex.

[arthwollipot]

Unfortunately I was hoping for a verbal description. YouTube is blocked here at work and at home I have such a slow connection that a 4 minute video takes upwards of two hours to load. :(

[leonAzul]

Unfortunately I was hoping for a verbal description. YouTube is blocked here at work and at home I have such a slow connection that a 4 minute video takes upwards of two hours to load. :(

Never mind.

Even if the person in the video that was linked to this thread were skillful, there would be no way to know it because of all the edits.

IOW, that person could be very skillful, perhaps even a master, yet there is no way to tell that from an obviously manipulated video.

[leonAzul]

Of course, that's fine.

Basically it's the offspring of a pack of cards and a person with a lot of time on their hands.

Here's an example video of Extreme Card Manipulation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FUvgKSU7GY

As you'll notice, many consider this an art.

Watch that all, it's one of the most entertaining 4:00 you could hope to experience.


Sorry, Legend, but whoever put this video together went over the hedge and around the bend with the dramatic digital effects. Yes, it's entertaining--for about 50 seconds or so--yet very quickly it is obvious that most of the "magic" is in the video editor.

I'm not saying that the person manipulating the cards doesn't have skills nor talent. What I am observing is that this particular rendition of it obscures his performance.

IOW, as a dramatic experience it is very entertaining, yet as a demonstration of prowess it fails epically.

[Legend]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Perhaps it is a little too dramatic, but it doesn't get in the way of showing off skills. The video is editted, but his skills are real. I know people who can do those things.

Perhaps you'd more enjoy this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Lhn9pgQVI), or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyf2OZcfR6U) (second from the same guy in the other video, only this time uneditted).

Arthwollipot: XCM is basically amazing tricks done with cards. Amazing movements, fans, flips and similar all done smoothly with cards. Just special tricks. I can't really explain it much better.

Alex.

[arthwollipot]

Oh, I've seen some footage of Cardini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pitchford) producing fan after fan after fan of cards. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

[Legend]

Not exactly.

It's more "extreme" than just fans (although they are incorporated in routines).

To really grip the meaning, you do have to watch some.

Alex.

[Senex]

If mastering the tricks in a beginner magic set counts I am a modern day Leonardo Da Vinci.

Magic is a craft unless you do more than copy others but take it to a unique level. I think Penn and Teller are artists.

[Legend]

Nice point.

Or is that just because of they're skeptical TV show?:D

I kid, I kid.

Uniqueness is important with art and that's a really clever thing to point out.

Alex.

[arthwollipot]

If mastering the tricks in a beginner magic set counts I am a modern day Leonardo Da Vinci.If mastering the tricks in a beginner magic set counts I am a modern day Clumsy McFumble.

Never had an aptitude for magic. I can do two card tricks and that's about it.

[six7s]

Why is this thread in History, Literature, and the Arts and not Conjuror's Corner? :confused:

[leonAzul]

Perhaps you'd more enjoy this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Lhn9pgQVI), or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyf2OZcfR6U) (second from the same guy in the other video, only this time uneditted).


These definitely demonstrate the skills much better, and mad skills they are.

He must be really impressive in person.

[arthwollipot]

I'll see if I can set my download manager to grab these overnight - last time I tried to watch a youtube video it took an hour to download 16 seconds.

[imjohn]

Why is this thread in History, Literature, and the Arts and not Conjuror's Corner? :confused:

I guess because it is questioning whether magic can be an art.

I would say yes it can be.

[arthwollipot]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Perhaps it is a little too dramatic, but it doesn't get in the way of showing off skills. The video is editted, but his skills are real. I know people who can do those things.

Perhaps you'd more enjoy this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Lhn9pgQVI), or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyf2OZcfR6U) (second from the same guy in the other video, only this time uneditted).

Arthwollipot: XCM is basically amazing tricks done with cards. Amazing movements, fans, flips and similar all done smoothly with cards. Just special tricks. I can't really explain it much better.

Alex.Okay, I've been able to view one of those videos, and it's pretty good. I see what you mean now. Not so much magic as dexterity and skill with manipulation. I've been known to try stuff like that with a sword. Never ends well.

[Legend]

I'm glad you viewed it and were impressed with it.

I wish that I had the dedication to learn things like that. I have no freakin' motivation.

Alex.

[gumboot]

I never really understood the concept of "art" until I began learning Wushu. Wushu is Chinese Martial Arts, but is more commonly known around the world as Kung Fu. Kung Fu (Gong Fu) actually means "ability" and refers to a certain level of achievement in something - a person can have good "Gong Fu" in any skill set you can imagine.

I think of Art as Gong Fu. Art is not a field, or an action, it is a level of achievement. Any sufficiently competent practitioner of any skill is an artist, and their work is therefore art.

So is Magic an art? Yes and no. Sufficiently good magic is art. Be that the magic of a spell-casting wizard or a cape-twirling stage magician.

[arthwollipot]

Yes, you have good explaining gung fu.

[Careyp74]

Of course, that's fine.

Basically it's the offspring of a pack of cards and a person with a lot of time on their hands.

Here's an example video of Extreme Card Manipulation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FUvgKSU7GY

As you'll notice, many consider this an art.

Watch that all, it's one of the most entertaining 4:00 you could hope to experience.

Alex.

Wow, he is good. That is one dude with a little time on his hands.

As for the OP, I think magic is an art. There is a lot of self expression in the shows performed by the greats, like P & T or David Copperfield.

[Almo]

Yes. I think Heinlein hit it on the head in Stranger in a Strange Land.

The guy was actually levitating the girl, so he needed no showmanship. Hence the audience was bored stiff. The art is in the quality of the distraction.

[KingMerv00]

Yes.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Like juggling, sleight-of-hand is a skill. How you present the skill determines if it is art.