USA gearing up for the draft!

[Jon_in_london]

Come on all you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs ya help again....

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

http://www.sss.gov/fslocal.htm

http://www.afsc.org/midatlantic/news/Vol11%20No2/v11n2_nochild.htm


During a Draft
Registrants with low lottery numbers will be ordered to report for a physical, mental, and moral evaluation at a Military Entrance Processing Station to determine whether they are fit for military service. Once he is notified of the results of the evaluation, a registrant will be given 10 days..........



Did you know that the No Child Left Behind Act requires high schools to give military recruiters the names and contact information for all students? But a student or his/her parent or guardian may remove the child’s name from the list, and school districts are required to tell you how to do that.
Did you know that in New York State, eligible young men who have not already registered for Selective Service will automatically be registered by the Department of Motor Vehicles when they apply for a license or photo ID card? That law went into effect on March 16, 2003.

[Jon_in_london]

Me is guessing Tony, RichardG and American might soon be in Canada :p

[richardm]

"Moral evaluation"? :confused:

[Doubt]

1.) Male US citizens who are 18 years old have been required to register for the draft since the 70’s. I even had to register when I was discharged from the army.

2.) The first link provided has no date. The information on that page looks to be nothing new.

3.) The last update on the second link is April 2002. Not exactly new, and the information provided is about the same as the first link.

4.) The third link is interesting, but half of it deals with the non-draft problem of high schools who started refusing to provide student information to recruiters. This has been a going problem for a few years now.


In conclusion, there is no evidence in those links that the US is planning on starting up the draft anytime soon. Congress has to pass a law before it could be started again. I have not seen anyone in Congress other than Charles Rangel attempting to start it up again. Rangel is not on friendly terms with the White House or Pentagon.

So John, where did you get these links from? Did you research this on your own or get them from somewhere else?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Me is guessing Tony, RichardG and American might soon be in Canada :p


I cant be drafted or join the military for medical reasons.

[The Don]

Apparently it would trigger anal leakage

[American]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Me is guessing Tony, RichardG and American might soon be in Canada :p


Yes. With a unit headed for Ottawa. We'll add a few states to the north and kick all the french out.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Tony
I cant be drafted or join the military for medical reasons.
Which one? (http://www.purgatory.net/merits/types.htm)

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony



I cant be drafted or join the military for medical reasons.

I didnt know moronism was a valid excuse...

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


I didnt know moronism was a valid excuse...

Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, I guess. Im a humanitarian, I should be willing to take some abuse to increase the self-esteem of those beneath me.

[rikzilla]

Well,

s for me, I've done my time in Uncle Sugar's army, so I'm not draftable. I have two daughters though, one is a junior in high school. Which makes me wonder; if one of the great achievements of the women's movement is equality....does this mean my daughter could end up drafted someday?

If not,...I wonder why not...or if the NOW will stand up and bitch that we should draft women too.

Somehow I just can't see the NOW demanding equal rights to fight a war they have come out strongly against. But it does pose an interesting moral and political question...eh?

-z

[Luke T.]

Jon in london, it has been a requirement for every male over the age of 18 to register with the Selective Service for as long as I can remember.

With women in combat positions now, I wonder why women don't have to register...

Anyway, starting in 1983, I began getting nasty letters from the SS (SS, get it?) for not registering. These were mailed to me at my active duty military address. I am not joking.

I kept responding to them, even going so far as to send them notarized photo copies of my military ID.

Finally, in 1985, I got a really, really nasty threatening letter from them. I wrote back and told them I surrender. I told them they could come and arrest me, and I would come willingly. I told them to come to pier 11, US Naval Shipyard Philadelphia, on board the USS Forrestal (CV-59), right down to the compartment number of my shop, and haul me away. I give up, I said.

Never heard from them again.

[Luke T.]

It would almost be worth the trouble to run for political office, just so some smarmy reporter with a copy of the Freedom of Information Act in his back pocket could publicly accuse me of being a draft dodger. :D :D :D

[Richard G]

I served my 4 years kicking the snot out of 3rd world dirt bags. If Uncle Sam calls, I'll do it again.

(Nice avatar American)

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Richard G
I served my 4 years kicking the snot out of 3rd world dirt bags. If Uncle Sam calls, I'll do it again.

(Nice avatar American)

Care to provide some details for those of us who may not be convinced?

Statements such as the above looks a little odd, since most US military efforts last much less than 4 years.

[Agammamon]

Of course the strange thing is, how is the SS going to find you. Most peope will have moved shortly after registering anyway (to college or just out to their own apartment). I suppose they could try to get your current address from tax returns, but if they can do that why would you need to register anyway?
Given that SS is an obviously discriminatory government program I don't think it wold survive a court challenge in it's current form.

[c0rbin]

But it does pose an interesting moral and political question...eh?

That I think should be settled with having the opposing parties jello wrestle!

[Corey]

None of this is very new. There have been quite a few military actions and even some official wars since the last time the US had a draft in effect.

I'm not too worried in any case, between my bad eyesight, my rock n roll induced hearing loss and my extremely "un-American" (in the current political climate, I love my country actually) political views I'm not very likely to be drafted.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Corey
None of this is very new. There have been quite a few military actions and even some official wars since the last time the US had a draft in effect.

I'm not too worried in any case, between my bad eyesight, my rock n roll induced hearing loss and my extremely "un-American" (in the current political climate, I love my country actually) political views I'm not very likely to be drafted.

Sorry, but having an "un-American" political view won't keep you out of the military. It might keep you from the good jobs that require a security clearance, though. Commies can just peel potatoes and wash skivvies....

[Alaric]

Coming up to take Ottawa? Ottawa is in Ontario-not Quebec so taking a few french areas to the north would involve a slight change in course Eastward ya goof.

Invading Canada would be just as stupid as it was the last time the Americans tried it....cold...people shoot at me...they were better as northern allies...cold......oh screw it im-im going home to my wife. Voila..another long period of peace. Give it up silly. We canucks are excellent fighters when pushed into a corner- why push us there when we are allies?



EDIT...or did I just fall into the "HA...GOADED YA YOU SUCKA" trap?

[American]

Originally posted by Richard G
I served my 4 years kicking the snot out of 3rd world dirt bags. If Uncle Sam calls, I'll do it again.

(Nice avatar American)

Thanks, and thanks also for smacking up the 3rd world scuz.

I'll save you some time.. only bother reading his first 2 books, or possibly just the first one. Every novel from him is exactly the same.

[jj]

(irony warning)

Well, just think how much improvement in the unemployment figures we can get if Bush gets to draft young males for his USA-2000 Crusades against the infidels in the middle east.

And like the last draft, where my little, poor steel town got up to number 200 in the draft lottery despite the high kid population, and at least some of the fancy parts of the big town next to me got to 80...

Right?

Or am I just way, way too cynical?

Will it work better for him than Nixon/Agnew?

I wonder, how much parallel between Cheyney and Spiro T?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Jon in london, it has been a requirement for every male over the age of 18 to register with the Selective Service for as long as I can remember.

With women in combat positions now, I wonder why women don't have to register...

Anyway, starting in 1983, I began getting nasty letters from the SS (SS, get it?) for not registering. These were mailed to me at my active duty military address. I am not joking.

I kept responding to them, even going so far as to send them notarized photo copies of my military ID.

Finally, in 1985, I got a really, really nasty threatening letter from them. I wrote back and told them I surrender. I told them they could come and arrest me, and I would come willingly. I told them to come to pier 11, US Naval Shipyard Philadelphia, on board the USS Forrestal (CV-59), right down to the compartment number of my shop, and haul me away. I give up, I said.

Never heard from them again. Makes you kinda wonder what sort of person they allow into the military that was handling your case, doesn't it! :)

[Zep]

Originally posted by Richard G
I served my 4 years kicking the snot out of 3rd world dirt bags. If Uncle Sam calls, I'll do it again.What a GREAT diplomat and advertisement YOU would have been for your country. :rolleyes:

[Zep]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Well,

s for me, I've done my time in Uncle Sugar's army, so I'm not draftable. I have two daughters though, one is a junior in high school. Which makes me wonder; if one of the great achievements of the women's movement is equality....does this mean my daughter could end up drafted someday?

If not,...I wonder why not...or if the NOW will stand up and bitch that we should draft women too.

Somehow I just can't see the NOW demanding equal rights to fight a war they have come out strongly against. But it does pose an interesting moral and political question...eh?

-z I'd suggest that these issues are not mutually exclusive. The use of women in the front line as a policy would seem to have no real bearing as to where that front line fighting actually was. At least, for consistency (and I suppose the military doesn't HAVE to be consistent...).

[a_unique_person]

You still have a military draft? We ended that with Vietnam. Is it too communistic liberalistic to get rid of the draft mechanism? The US can invade countries at will, support military ventures by proxy as it pleases, but it can't get rid of the draft. For what reason?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You still have a military draft? We ended that with Vietnam. Is it too communistic liberalistic to get rid of the draft mechanism? The US can invade countries at will, support military ventures by proxy as it pleases, but it can't get rid of the draft. For what reason?
There's no draft, you have to register in case Congress decides to implement a draft (which there is absolutely no consideration of at the moment). It's a relic of the Cold War, I believe the law was passed in Reagan's first term.

The Pentagon would rather have motivated volunteers than forced conscripts also. Right now, the military is limited by it's budget, not by a lack of volunteers.

I'm too old to be drafted anyway.

[a_unique_person]

It is the mechanism for a draft. Even registering for such system is incredible. People jump up and down when I say that I think compulsory voting is a good thing, due to the civil liberties implications, but I have never heard a word about having to register for a draft, even if it isn't happening. This to me is a much bigger infringement of civil liberties.

Compulsory voting only means I have to turn up, and I can just write "Sod Off'. Registering for a draft is a very important step in the whole compulsory service process.

[†= Crap!]

I'm going to agree with a_unique_person that ANY kind of draft is a gross infringement of civil liberties.

I don't care if a million Islamic Extremist land off the coast of California; It's wrong for the government to force somebody to do something against their will.

I have noting against voluntary service, but:

If the government can't find enough people to voluntarily kill and risk being killed in a war in some far off place, then I say to bad for the government.

If the government can't find enough people to voluntarily defend their country, then I say that country probably isn't worth defending.

[Richard G]

I'm going to agree with a_unique_person that ANY kind of draft is a gross infringement of civil liberties.
I don't care if a million Islamic Extremist land off the coast of California; It's wrong for the government to force somebody to do something against their will.


If a foreign invasion succeeds, and there are too many apethetic individuals such as yourtself who do not volunteer, there wont BE any civil rights. You'll be able to file a grievance about doing something against your will with the prevailant foreign invaders, who will promptly have you shot.

So many brain dead, no, idiotic individuals who take their freedom for granted, and then belittle those who selflessly sacrifice to provide it.

[Jabberwock]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Anyway, starting in 1983, I began getting nasty letters from the SS (SS, get it?) for not registering. These were mailed to me at my active duty military address. I am not joking.

I got three of these on the same day. They all came to the boat and were even addressed to me by with my rank. They went from "Hey, did you forget..." to "Stay where you are, the FBI is coming right now." The three had been mailed on differant days, but I had foolishly spent a few months on a sub in the North Atlantic and my mail service was a bit...off. :p My solution wasn't as creative as yours, though. I had the sub's Yeoman write a Statement of Service (an official letter signed by the Commanding Officer saying how long I had been in and how much longer my contract had) and they stopped sending them.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Come on all you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs ya help again....

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

http://www.sss.gov/fslocal.htm

http://www.afsc.org/midatlantic/news/Vol11%20No2/v11n2_nochild.htm


In the sense of these links, the USA has been "geared up" for a draft all along, just in case.

This time it's the peaceniks, not the generals who are fighting the last war. :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Agammamon
Of course the strange thing is, how is the SS going to find you. Most peope will have moved shortly after registering anyway (to college or just out to their own apartment). I suppose they could try to get your current address from tax returns, but if they can do that why would you need to register anyway?
Given that SS is an obviously discriminatory government program I don't think it wold survive a court challenge in it's current form.

Nitpick. Selective Service is the SSS.

But the SS will help the SSS find you. That's Social Security.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by WildCat

There's no draft, you have to register in case Congress decides to implement a draft (which there is absolutely no consideration of at the moment). It's a relic of the Cold War, I believe the law was passed in Reagan's first term.


Perhaps there was some minor modification during Reagan's term, but something like the current system was in place since the end of the Viet Nam war.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Richard G


If a foreign invasion succeeds, and there are too many apethetic individuals such as yourtself who do not volunteer, there wont BE any civil rights. You'll be able to file a grievance about doing something against your will with the prevailant foreign invaders, who will promptly have you shot.

So many brain dead, no, idiotic individuals who take their freedom for granted, and then belittle those who selflessly sacrifice to provide it.

It doesn't take that long to set up a draft, if it is really needed. That is, an invasion is imminent and no-one seems to care. However, as ??? pointed out, if you really don't care that much about your country, maybe you don't deserve it. The draft, however, is more often used to fight wars that are unpopular and would not have enough people fighting them if they were not forced to go. WWI is a good case in point. Without a draft, I doubt it would have happened.

[†= Crap!]

First of all, calling me apathetic is a completely baseless assertion. You don't know me. I haven't posted enough on this board for you to draw any such conclusion.

Originally posted by Richard G
If a foreign invasion succeeds, and there are too many apethetic individuals such as yourtself who do not volunteer, there wont BE any civil rights.

Thats not likely to ever happen. If a government does a decent job then it shouldn't have any problem finding enough people to defend it. If the government is so incompetent or oppressive that it cant muster its own people to defend it, then that government doesn't deserve to exist (Iraq is a perfect example)

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by American



Yes. With a unit headed for Ottawa. We'll add a few states to the north and kick all the french out.

Bring it on.

[†= Crap!]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
However, as ??? pointed out

If my name is too offensive you can just call me Crap!, †, or †= *whatever you want*. I don't care.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by †= Crap!


If my name is too offensive you can just call me Crap!, †, or †= *whatever you want*. I don't care.

Not offensive, I just don't know how you did the crucifix.

[†= Crap!]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Not offensive, I just don't know how you did the crucifix.

Hold down Alt while on the Number pad type 0134, then release Alt

Or you could just copy and paste.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by †= Crap!


Hold down Alt while on the Number pad type 0134, then release Alt

Or you could just copy and paste.

Interesting. Isn't the old printers' jargon name for that character the "dagger"?

[†= Crap!]

Yep

[Skeptic]

1.) Male US citizens who are 18 years old have been required to register for the draft since the 70’s. I even had to register when I was discharged from the army.

Great. You now went and broke Jon's "evil America gearing up to scarifice its unwilling young innocents" story by posting stupid FACTS.

That's no fair, using FACTS arguing with a leftist...

[Giz]

Originally posted by †= Crap!

Thats not likely to ever happen. If a government does a decent job then it shouldn't have any problem finding enough people to defend it. If the government is so incompetent or oppressive that it cant muster its own people to defend it, then that government doesn't deserve to exist (Iraq is a perfect example)

But the draft was necessary in WW2. Dont you think that was morally OK?

So it can be a good thing, yeah?

[Tmy]

Did the US use the draft in WW2?? I didnt think they had too.

[Giz]

Originally posted by Tmy
Did the US use the draft in WW2?? I didnt think they had too.

I believe both the USA and the UK used the draft in boith World Wars.

[†= Crap!]

Originally posted by Giz


But the draft was necessary in WW2. Dont you think that was morally OK?

So it can be a good thing, yeah?

I'm not sure the draft was necessarily necessary in WWII. I think most people understood that Americas interest were just as much at stake as England or France. The Japanese did attack us. Do think there would have been a problem with people just saying 'You know, maybe living under Japanese imperialism won't be so bad'

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Tmy
Did the US use the draft in WW2?? I didnt think they had too.

The draft was necessary just about in ANY country fighting a war, EVER. Yes, the US, the UK, and everybody else had a draft in all their wars. It is not necessary because people don't think their country is worth defending, but because (of course) it is one thing to think your country is worth defending and quite another to disturb your entire life, say goodbye to your loved ones, and go risk your life for years on a daily basis in order to defend it.

If "Crap's" plan would be put into effect, then every single war between a democracy and a dictatorship would have been lost by the democracy, for the simple reason that the dictatorship would use the draft and the democracy would have to use persuasion. Frankly, the idea that a draft somehow "proves" a country is "wrong" in its war is beyond absurd. It doesn't even pass the giggle test.

[†= Crap!]

What more can I say other than I disagree with you?

I believe when people see that there lives and livelihoods are endanger they will fight for them, and there is no need to to subjugate people who dissent.

[dissonance]

Saw this article in the newspaper yesterday....

Will the US bring back the draft? (http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1068073289288)

There doesn't seem to be any indication of just when exactly this supposed call for draft board members was actually made, though.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by †= Crap!
What more can I say other than I disagree with you?

I believe when people see that there lives and livelihoods are endanger they will fight for them, and there is no need to to subjugate people who dissent.

Well, first, right up until Pearl Harbor was attacked, there was a large isolationist movement in America. One of the leading figures in that movement was Charles Lindbergh of translantic flight fame. So a lot of people felt there was no threat to the U.S.

Secondly, Hawaii wasn't even a State. So an attack on a mere "territory" may not even have been persuasive enough for some.

Thirdly, I think the fact the U.S. had to resort to the draft is a self-evident indication that not enough people felt the desire to defend their country and enlist in sufficient numbers.

Fourth, people may not enlist into the various services in the necessary proportions. If all the volunteers decided to join the Navy, just as an example, the Army and the Marines would be short-handed. With the draft, you can disseminate people where they are needed.

An all volunteer force is much more preferable to one in which you draft a lot of people who don't want to be there. But sometimes there is no choice.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by †= Crap!
What more can I say other than I disagree with you?

I believe when people see that there lives and livelihoods are endanger they will fight for them, and there is no need to to subjugate people who dissent.

(sigh) If only you were right!

We all wish it was so, but all of history, human nature, and experience is against your claim. It SHOULD be that way, but it isn't. Amazingly enough, almost everywere and at any time, people had to be FORCED to fight for their lives with coersive measures like the draft, censorship, etc., even if it was @#$#!! obvious what not fighting would being.

This was already true in biblical times, it was true during the Persian/Greek wars (the Greeks nearly lost the war after, out of spite, they almost started a civil war among themselves over some stupid point of honor as Darius was invading) and it was true for, just about, any war since, to this very day. Yes, including WWII. If there are exceptions to this rule, they are just that--exceptions.

Don't ask me to explain WHY. It doesn't make any sense to me, either. But it's true.

[Skeptic]

Fourth, (volunteers) may not enlist into the various services in the necessary proportions.

...or in the right numbers, or with the right skills, or at the right time, or to the right jobs within the services, or at the right place, or... etc., etc., etc. Nobody ever volunteers two years in advance of a crisis in order to be a cook; everybody wants to volunteer when the crisis is upon us... and then they all want to be officers and fighter pilots.

[†= Crap!]

Luke T.,

I'll only address one point here

Secondly, Hawaii wasn't even a State. So an attack on a mere "territory" may not even have been persuasive enough for some.

Its wasn't just an attack on a mere "territory". it was an attack on the US military that killed US citizens. So it was very much an attack on us

As for the rest of your points, as well as Skeptics.....,

You're causing me to shift my position(Damn you!) :p . If a draft was required to win a war comparable to WWII, which I'm not entirely convinced it would, there would be justification for it. But that doesn't make it right.

I simply don't believe in the subjugation of the individual to the masses, and I don't believe in the initiation of force.(Damn you!)

[shecky]

Originally posted by Richard G
I served my 4 years kicking the snot out of 3rd world dirt bags. If Uncle Sam calls, I'll do it again.

You spent 4 years kicking the snot out of 3rd world dirt bags to support different 3rd world dirt bags, for the sake of a shortsighted Uncle Sam.

Sure it's a liberal claptrap, shared by that great liberal, your great prez, Dubya (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/06/bush.democracy.ap/index.html)

"Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe because in the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty," Bush said.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
1.) Male US citizens who are 18 years old have been required to register for the draft since the 70’s. I even had to register when I was discharged from the army.

Great. You now went and broke Jon's "evil America gearing up to scarifice its unwilling young innocents" story by posting stupid FACTS.

That's no fair, using FACTS arguing with a leftist...

You will find that most peaceful Western countries do not even require a registration for a draft that does not exist. Requiring a registration is still an important step in getting a draft happening. If we were required to register in Australia, there would be a massive protest vote against such a policy.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Skeptic


The draft was necessary just about in ANY country fighting a war, EVER. Yes, the US, the UK, and everybody else had a draft in all their wars.

BTW- The British didnt introduce conscription until 1916.

The army that marched into the holocaust of the somme was made up entirely of volunteers.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


BTW- The British didnt introduce conscription until 1916.

The army that marched into the holocaust of the somme was made up entirely of volunteers.

Ditto the Australian Army in WWI. For some reason, there were plenty of volunteers to die for a war that made no sense at all from Australia. I must apologise, I thought that the English were conscripts for the duration of the war.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Ditto the Australian Army in WWI. For some reason, there were plenty of volunteers to die for a war that made no sense at all from Australia. I must apologise, I thought that the English were conscripts for the duration of the war.

AUP- The Aussies of the time thought of themselves as being British. Australia being a part of the British Empire, remember. (you still are btw, you are just a bit more uppity these days ;) )

Edit: AUP, the British army that went to france in 1914 was enirely made up of proffesional soldiers. They were without a doubt the finest army of their time. The Kaiser referred to them as "A contemptible little army" after which they refered to themselves as the "Old Contemptables". Had there been a million of them instead of 100,000, the war might just have been over 'by christmas'.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You will find that most peaceful Western countries do not even require a registration for a draft that does not exist. Requiring a registration is still an important step in getting a draft happening. If we were required to register in Australia, there would be a massive protest vote against such a policy.

Registering for selective service is really no big deal here in the states.. Of course when most of us did it there was no real expectation that it would be used. Its like IF there was a war bad enough to require the drafte they would have the list of men available.

When the space aliens attack were gonna need to put together a figting force really quick.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by †= Crap!
Luke T.,

I'll only address one point here



Its wasn't just an attack on a mere "territory". it was an attack on the US military that killed US citizens. So it was very much an attack on us

As for the rest of your points, as well as Skeptics.....,

You're causing me to shift my position(Damn you!) :p . If a draft was required to win a war comparable to WWII, which I'm not entirely convinced it would, there would be justification for it. But that doesn't make it right.

I simply don't believe in the subjugation of the individual to the masses, and I don't believe in the initiation of force.(Damn you!)

Well, I think if you take a look around this forum, you will find a member or two who would not be convinced an attack on U.S. troops anywhere outside the U.S. warrants war. So it is feasible that the attack on our Navy at Pearl Harbor wasn't enough to convince some of the isolationists of the time that we should go to war over it.

As for shifting your position, it takes a lot of character to do that.

I don't think anyone actually wants a draft. As a former military man myself, I would much prefer volunteers. And the idea that Uncle Sam has eminent domain over my life seems to be a violation of my so-called "inalienable rights," which makes the draft evil, but a necessary one unfortunately.

My memory is hazy, but I believe most of the American armed forces in World War II were Reservists called to active duty. Sort of like what we are seeing in Iraq right now. I have no clue how many people were involuntarily drafted or what proportion of the active forces they were.

[Skeptic]

By the way, "Crap", I suggest you change your username for two reasons:

1). It is theoretically a violation of the "cursing" rules, I think (not that I'm going to complain about it).

2). More important... just how are people supposed to call you when they respond to your posts?

[The Don]

According to the book of modern manners :

Mr †= Crap! - for formal use

† = Crap!
or = Crap! - for third party reference

† - if you are well acquainted

[†= Crap!]

Originally posted by Luke T.

As for shifting your position, it takes a lot of character to do that.


I wouldn't think much of it. I'm not afraid to through out less than solid positions for the sake of discussion. If I said something meek and cautious like 'I think drafts aren't always warranted, goodbye' , no one would have took notice and no discussion would have resulted.