Bits of Mumbai blown up again.

[geni]

Okey so Mumbai has been attacked. By someone. Who is unclear. Widely suspected to be an islamic group but there are other violent rebel groups around in India.

Reports still confused but the attacks appear to have hostages and may have captured some MEPs (which may or may not be viewed as a problem).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/26_November_2008_Mumbai_attacks

Target choice is rather varried. A cafe popular with westerns a hotel a train station and a hospital. Launching that many attacks at once is quite a trick.

[WildCat]

Live streaming video: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php

[boloboffin]

The name being given for responsibility is the Deccan Mujaheddin, but there is no known group with that name.

The Deccan Plateau makes up the geographical south of India. This must have some symbolism that we haven't heard. The wiki article on the Deccan Plateau says there was an independent Muslim nation there, the Bahmani Sultanate that was able to conquer a large part of India. I guess that will serve until some better explanation comes along.

[geni]

islamic


NEW DELHI (Reuters) - A militant holed up inside Mumbai's Oberoi Hotel told India TV on Thursday that seven attackers were holding hostages inside the luxury establishment.....

"We want all Mujahideens held in India released and only after that we will release the people."


http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE4AQ15M20081127?virtualBrandChannel=10112

[Francesca R]

I had a "that was close" moment about this because exactly a year ago I was staying at the Taj Mahal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal_Palace_%26_Tower) Mumbai. But then, thousands of people have, and I was also just a couple of hundred metres from one of the 7/7 London train bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7#Attacks_on_the_Underground) when my building was evacuated. Odd how the latter one is more apt to make you think "Oh well, better get on with life", whereas attacks on foreign visitors in a far-off location is scarier.

[Travis]

I had a "that was close" moment about this because exactly a year ago I was staying at the Taj Mahal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal_Palace_%26_Tower) Mumbai. But then, thousands of people have, and I was also just a couple of hundred metres from one of the 7/7 London train bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7#Attacks_on_the_Underground) when my building was evacuated. Odd how the latter one is more apt to make you think "Oh well, better get on with life", whereas attacks on foreign visitors in a far-off location is scarier.

They were singling out Americans and Brits so if you had been there you might have gotten more attention from them......also being pretty doesn't help in those situations.

[JoeyDonuts]

I had a "that was close" moment about this because exactly a year ago I was staying at the Taj Mahal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal_Palace_%26_Tower) Mumbai. But then, thousands of people have, and I was also just a couple of hundred metres from one of the 7/7 London train bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7#Attacks_on_the_Underground) when my building was evacuated. Odd how the latter one is more apt to make you think "Oh well, better get on with life", whereas attacks on foreign visitors in a far-off location is scarier.

I'd like to think that in a foreign country you're always going to feel more vulnerable. During my travels through the Arabian gulf, even in fairly moderate and pro-western places like Dubai and Muscat, I was constantly looking over my shoulder. Even though I wasn't in a uniform, I stood out pretty plainly as a U.S. servicemember and really had no intention of being the star of "Who Wants to Get Murdered in a Grainy Extremist Video."

However, whenever you have a close call that's in your hometown there's a suspension of disbelief I think. That could be the innate feeling of security that comes with being where you live and are familiar with. When I go out to a shopping mall in my local area, the last thing I'm thinking about is some lunatic indiscriminately opening fire into the crowd...but it could happen, has happened, and probably will again. Something similar just happened in my hometown not too long ago. (http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?s=9341812) You never think about these things when you're in your comfort zone, but unfortunately tragedy doesn't do you the courtesy of making sure you're ready before it goes upside your head.

[JoeyDonuts]

They were singling out Americans and Brits so if you had been there you might have gotten more attention from them......also being pretty doesn't help in those situations.

If the flash-frames from her avatar are actually what she looks like, she could have probably fit in rather well with the locals with a little ingenuity.

[Francesca R]

Yes, but no I can't pass for Indian.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yes, but no I can't pass for Indian.

Well, you also don't look stereotypically British or American. If they came for you, you'd probably have an excellent shot at getting through it with any foreign languages you happen to know. Or barring that, making up a language! That worked for me when I was assailed by an army of pushy street vendors in Dakar. :D

[Francesca R]

Well I have Italian origins, but I was with two women from Japan and Singapore and two men from Scotland and the US, so who knows /de-rail

[Doubt]

I had a "that was close" moment about this because exactly a year ago I was staying at the Taj Mahal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal_Palace_%26_Tower) Mumbai. But then, thousands of people have, and I was also just a couple of hundred metres from one of the 7/7 London train bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7#Attacks_on_the_Underground) when my building was evacuated. Odd how the latter one is more apt to make you think "Oh well, better get on with life", whereas attacks on foreign visitors in a far-off location is scarier.

The Taj chain is vowing to rebuild:

http://www.tajhotels.com/



MUMBAI SITUATION UPDATE
Taj Hotels are monitoring the development of the unfortunate situation unfolding at the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower in South Mumbai and are fully cooperating with the police and the government authorities who are working towards the safety and security of all our guests and staff. That is all we can say at the moment and we would like to channel all our efforts and energy to ensure a speedy normalisation of the situation as best as we can.

We will rebuild every inch that has been damaged in this attack and bring back the Taj to its full glory. 7.30 am IST, November 27, 2008.



But this attack is different than previous ones. The Japiur attack happened while I was there last year but the were not targeting westerners. This is either a different group with a different motivation or they are changing.

[WildCat]

islamic
I am shocked, shocked, shocked I tell you!

[geni]

I am shocked, shocked, shocked I tell you!

In india there is no shortage of groups who might try and pull it off. Sikh nationalists, hindu extremeists, islamic extreamists and a few marxist bandit/rebel groups. Not aware of the Zoroastrians being behind any attacks yet mind but they have internal issues.

[dudalb]

I would say that the Jewish Center in Mumbai being a target would rule out most of non Islamic nut groups in India.
I don't think the Hindu Nationalist (though they are a bunch of muderous bastards) care too much about the Jews....

[dudalb]

God, the bastards attacked a Hospital.
Three gunmen have been captured. It will not go easy for them
The head of the Mubair Anti Terroists unit has been killed in combat, apparetnly
I got a feeling that the India/Pakistan feud is about to heat up again.

[dudalb]

The name being given for responsibility is the Deccan Mujaheddin, but there is no known group with that name.

The Deccan Plateau makes up the geographical south of India. This must have some symbolism that we haven't heard. The wiki article on the Deccan Plateau says there was an independent Muslim nation there, the Bahmani Sultanate that was able to conquer a large part of India. I guess that will serve until some better explanation comes along.


Oh, some of the Islamic Militants are openly talking about bringing back Islamic rule to India...the return of the Moguls.
I think that is about as probable as some Islamists talking about taking back Spain, but they can kill a lot of people trying.

[dudalb]

The name being given for responsibility is the Deccan Mujaheddin, but there is no known group with that name.

From all I have reading and hearing, this thing was well planned and sophisticated.
Not the earmarks of an amateur or "Start Up" terrorist group.
Terrorist groups are created the way the Mafia creates fronts.

[Luciana]

Now if you'll excuse me, I have an inane question to make, even more inane when we think of the proportions of this tragedy - a city with 13 million people paralyzed because of terrorists that coordinated successful attacks for reasons still muddy. But I really must know...

The Taj Hotel has been burning since yesterday. How come it did not spread to the rest of the building, how come the fire is confined to the top??? Even with firefighters, come on, it's still impressive that it did not spread.

[moon1969]

Maybe you should google human rights violations in Kashmir and see that India and its army is not saints. :mad:

[dudalb]

Maybe you should google human rights violations in Kashmir and see that India and its army is not saints. :mad:


So you are saying these attacks are justified?
Consdiering some of your Anti Semitic rants recently, it would not surprise me at all.
Keep it up. Soon you will have reputation here on the same level as MaGZ.

[Luciana]

Maybe you should google human rights violations in Kashmir and see that India and its army is not saints. :mad:

Even so, what do innocent bystanders and visiting foreigners have to do with this?

[WildCat]

In india there is no shortage of groups who might try and pull it off. Sikh nationalists, hindu extremeists, islamic extreamists and a few marxist bandit/rebel groups. Not aware of the Zoroastrians being behind any attacks yet mind but they have internal issues.
This wasn't some spontaneous riot, but a well planned attack targeting civilians in multiple places. Not the MO of those other groups.

God, the bastards attacked a Hospital.
Three gunmen have been captured. It will not go easy for them
The head of the Mubair Anti Terroists unit has been killed in combat, apparetnly
I got a feeling that the India/Pakistan feud is about to heat up again.
There's a school of thought that this is aimed at inflaming Pakistan-India tensions. The idea being that India will send more troops to Kashmir, which will cause Pakistan to do the same. The advantage of this for al Qaida and related groups? Pakistan pulls troops out of the tribal regions where they are battling Islamic extremists, restoring their safe haven from which to attack Afghanistan.

[geni]

This wasn't some spontaneous riot, but a well planned attack targeting civilians in multiple places. Not the MO of those other groups.

The sikhs in their day could have done it. Sikh nationalism is still around I wouldn't write them off. Well planned well carried out attacks is exactly their style but they generaly plan to walk away afterwards (actualy historicaly sikhs have made some impressive last stands but they don't normaly plan to in advance).

The hindu groups could but probably didn't since they are doing rather will through conventional political means. The marxist bandits/rebels carry out exactly this kind of attack (although generaly sticking to targeting police rather than civilians) but normaly well away from goverment strongholds. They also generly work on the basis that they will survive them and be able to withdraw afterwards,


There's a school of thought that this is aimed at inflaming Pakistan-India tensions. The idea being that India will send more troops to Kashmir, which will cause Pakistan to do the same. The advantage of this for al Qaida and related groups? Pakistan pulls troops out of the tribal regions where they are battling Islamic extremists, restoring their safe haven from which to attack Afghanistan.

India knows as well as anyone that the tribal regions are out of control. To that extent I can't see it working. However if the RDX find claims are correct that points at ISI involvement.

[geni]

The Taj Hotel has been burning since yesterday. How come it did not spread to the rest of the building, how come the fire is confined to the top??? Even with firefighters, come on, it's still impressive that it did not spread.

At a guess I'd say the building was originaly designed to be fireproof with various improvements latter fitted that resulted in a degree of overdesign.

[Doubt]

The Taj Hotel has been burning since yesterday. How come it did not spread to the rest of the building, how come the fire is confined to the top??? Even with firefighters, come on, it's still impressive that it did not spread.

Based on my 6 week stay at one of their other hotels, I would say it may have something to do with nothing being left to chance by the people running place.

[Kopji]

Zero television media coverage here.

[gtc]

Your in Arizona, right?

Interesting. Its been the lead story in Australia for the last two days.

[Kopji]

Sheesh I joke about living in the boonies but this is weird even for Arizona. I've been offline for a couple days and only found about this event today. As far as I can tell the shooting is still going on.

Nothing in the local paper or tv media - Nada, zero, zilch - nothing on any cable news channel that I could tell. Oops, I found a little bit of coverage on an obscure msnbc corporate news channel.

CNN has a 'hero' special going. MSNBC has regular programming. Fox has regular local programming.

This is almost purely a web event.

Time to fire up BBC news on my sat radio.

[Kopji]

Sorry... FOX news is covering someone arguing about the New Testament...

[Kopji]

Shuush, this is the biggest shopping day of the year in the US, don't disturb us with unpleasant stuff like terrorist attacks.

[Checkmite]

Apparently, there has been a large battle at Nariman House. The terrorists, under cover of hostages, had been occupying the second floor when the anti-terrorism unit engaged them. More explosions, five hostages and two terrorists killed, and the remaining three terrorists have moved up to a higher floor. Authorities are in active pursuit.

[WildCat]

Sheesh I joke about living in the boonies but this is weird even for Arizona. I've been offline for a couple days and only found about this event today. As far as I can tell the shooting is still going on.

Nothing in the local paper or tv media - Nada, zero, zilch - nothing on any cable news channel that I could tell. Oops, I found a little bit of coverage on an obscure msnbc corporate news channel.

CNN has a 'hero' special going. MSNBC has regular programming. Fox has regular local programming.

This is almost purely a web event.

Time to fire up BBC news on my sat radio.
The day it happened CNN and Fox, at least, were covering nothing but this story from the time it happened until I went to bed. You must not have tuned in that day at all.

And I've found the best coverage is still in the link I gave early in this thread, India's IBN. Live streaming video here: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php

It is in English if you're wondering.

eta: latest tally is 155 dead, over 300 wounded.

[WildCat]

India knows as well as anyone that the tribal regions are out of control. To that extent I can't see it working.
I was referring to the tribal areas in northwest Pakistan.

However if the RDX find claims are correct that points at ISI involvement.
The ISI quote on this according to IBN: "All allegations are just allegations". :rolleyes:

[Kopji]

Looks like the tv news crews are awake this morning and covering.
'Breaking News' banners as if all this just happened. Fox News has moved on to coverage of the Jonas Brothers 'Salvation Army' halftime presentation at a football game yesterday...

I doubt this is a coincidence that this event is coordinated with the scheduled execution of the Bali terrorists.

Unfortunately this attack has the appearance of being planned as if it is a template for future operations.

[Kopji]

The day it happened CNN and Fox, at least, were covering nothing but this story from the time it happened until I went to bed. You must not have tuned in that day at all.

And I've found the best coverage is still in the link I gave early in this thread, India's IBN. Live streaming video here: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php

It is in English if you're wondering.

eta: latest tally is 155 dead, over 300 wounded.

I hope it just me not paying attention... the tv's on most of the time around here and I'm a terrible channel surfer. Saw nothing.
Wouldn't be the first time I blanked out on something though. Is definitely front and center news today.

[SteveGrenard]

Sheesh I joke about living in the boonies but this is weird even for Arizona. I've been offline for a couple days and only found about this event today. As far as I can tell the shooting is still going on.

Nothing in the local paper or tv media - Nada, zero, zilch - nothing on any cable news channel that I could tell. Oops, I found a little bit of coverage on an obscure msnbc corporate news channel.

CNN has a 'hero' special going. MSNBC has regular programming. Fox has regular local programming.

This is almost purely a web event.

Time to fire up BBC news on my sat radio.

Yup, I think this was you not paying attention.

MSNBC and CNN had this almost exclusively for the first 40 hours or so. It was like there was no other news in the world. The CNN Heroes Special was the first "other" show they had on since this started. MSNBC finally stopped covering it and had one of their LockUp prison docs, also after almost exclusive Mumbai coverage since it began. I guess you didn't watch anything since Wednesday. Almost all the regular newscasters were off, probably for the Thanksgiving Holiday and there were a bunch of new faces covering this.

[dudalb]

The News Networks coverage has been pretty intensive in the US.
The only News Network to have no coverage was MSNBC, and it just highlights that if MSNBC is serioius about competing with CNN and FOX, they are going to have to stop this crap of basically shutting down its news operations on Weekends and Holidays and putting on endless "True Crme" and Prison documentaries instead. Maybe they should have paid Olbermann a little less on his new contract and spent the money on having a full time news operation. Yes, CNN and FOx have reruns on Weekends, but they still have regular newcasts and if there is a big story they are on top of it.

It is still early, but it looks as if the intial Indian response was what in the US Military we called a ClusterF---.
There are elections coming up in India, and the opposition has been accusing the Government of being soft on terrorism for some time. This won't help the Government in the election.
That Westerners and Jews were singled out is scary.
It is certainly a wake up call to Obama that terrorism is still here and he will have to deal with it. He is 100% right in wanting to put the economy first, but the world might not allow him to put everything else on hold.

[SteveGrenard]

The only News Network to have no coverage was MSNBC

I wouldn't say "no coverage" on MSNBC. I watched the drama unfold on CNN and MSNBC although MSNBC did run their regular lineup of shows (Hardball, Countdown and Maddow)in the evening with breaking news segments of several minutes each interspersed into their regular line up. They actually completely stopped covering the incident Thursday night when they decided to run their LockUpRaw prison series show. CNN deifnitely had the best coverage but their coverage was interrupted by Anderson Cooper's Heroes program.
There was no coverage by Cooper or any regular newscaster on either network but
plenty of new faces kept cropping up in addition to people on the ground in India.

[dudalb]

They actually completely stopped covering the incident Thursday night when they decided to run their LockUpRaw prison series show.

It is that way on weekends as well on MSNBC...they just run old crime or prison documentaries 24/7 on weekends, with no newscasts whatsoever. They basicallly shut down the news operation.
As long as they do that, no way they will really be competitive with CNN or Fox. I am really amazed the MSNBC management does not understand this.
Yes, on weekends Fox and CNN show a lot of repeats , but they still have newcasts and some new programming, and can go live in a minute to cover a big story. MSNBC just goes dark except for somebody to run the documentaries. When a huge stories breaks, it is often a couple of hours before MSNBC can begin coverage on weekends or holidays. That ain't no way to run a news network.

[geni]

I was referring to the tribal areas in northwest Pakistan.

So was I.


The ISI quote on this according to IBN: "All allegations are just allegations". :rolleyes:

I wouldn't trust IBN to report objectively on the ISI responce.

[geni]

Unfortunately this attack has the appearance of being planned as if it is a template for future operations.

I doubt it. The attack is somewhat simular to the one on the indian parliment building but would be hard to pull off in many places due the problems of getting there.

There was also a rather failed North korean assualt that had much the same basis behind it.

[Undesired Walrus]

Two of the gunmen were allegedly British.

[geni]

It is still early, but it looks as if the intial Indian response was what in the US Military we called a ClusterF---.


A bunch of police leaders had been shot and there were rumors of attacks all over the place. I'd suggest their performance was about what could be expected.


There are elections coming up in India, and the opposition has been accusing the Government of being soft on terrorism for some time. This won't help the Government in the election.
That Westerners and Jews were singled out is scary.


Nothing new remeber that attack in saudi arabia a few years back?


It is certainly a wake up call to Obama that terrorism is still here and he will have to deal with it. He is 100% right in wanting to put the economy first, but the world might not allow him to put everything else on hold.

Mumbai is a significant financial centre

[geni]

Two of the gunmen were allegedly British.

Somewhat unconfirmed at this point.

[dudalb]

A bunch of police leaders had been shot and there were rumors of attacks all over the place. I'd suggest their performance was about what could be expected.

The main criticism is that the Government leaders in Mumbai and the State it is in were way too slow in realising that this was beyond the ability of the police to handle. There was a delay of almost 12 hours before they asked for military help. If anything, the chaos caused by the hits on the Police officials should have made the powers that be in Mumbai even more alert that things were beyond their ability to control.
THis will all be hashed out in the coming weeks, and I would not be surprised in politicians around the world being what they are, Mumbai officials are not already marking out the scapegoats.

Mumbai is a significant financial centre

I am sure that was a major factor in Mumbai being picked as a target.
I got a feeling that a number of factors were behind this attack, and although no doubt a major factor Kashmir is not the only one.

[WildCat]

THis will all be hashed out in the coming weeks, and I would not be surprised in politicians around the world being what they are, Mumbai officials are not already marking out the scapegoats.
Listen to the IBN link, it's already happening.

[Checkmite]

...they just run old crime or prison documentaries 24/7 on weekends...


Yes, I know what you MEANT, but just read that again; it's funny.

[dudalb]

yes, i know what you meant, but just read that again; it's funny.

ok, 24/2......

[JoeyDonuts]

I was watching some of the CNN coverage on my JREF hiatus this weekend.

They managed to show some of the police counter-terror team in action. The fact that they showed the positions of the responding units shows me something. Their CT folks don't seem to have an understanding with the media. Here, whenever SWAT does an entry or is engaged in action, the local TV coverage does not show it - so as not to jeopardize the SWAT teams by giving their location way incase the tangoes happen to be watching TV. Not good business practice in the counter-terror business to not have arrangements with the local media to show something else when their units are responding.

In some of this video, it showed a group of police CT units holed up in a standoff position on a balcony across from the building where the Jewish center was located. Their tactics were a bit sloppy to say the least. One of their guys was standing up on a railing and firing his weapon above his head and blindly into a window. Yikes. I also saw a window being blown out that looked like the effects of a frag grenade. I really really hope that it was deployed by the terrorists and not the police. You never deploy a frag in an entry situation where hostages are involved, you use flashbangs or CS. The whole thing is leading me to wonder whether or not India's CT team is up to speed on the tactics and procedures that the rest of the world's elite are using. Either way, I hope they send their folks over to play with SAS and Delta and get schooled up. The bungling of the Munich Games response by the German authorities led to the creation of GSG9, and they're one of the best nowadays. Hopefully the Indians will follow suit.

[geni]

I was watching some of the CNN coverage on my JREF hiatus this weekend.

They managed to show some of the police counter-terror team in action. The fact that they showed the positions of the responding units shows me something. Their CT folks don't seem to have an understanding with the media. Here, whenever SWAT does an entry or is engaged in action, the local TV coverage does not show it - so as not to jeopardize the SWAT teams by giving their location way incase the tangoes happen to be watching TV. Not good business practice in the counter-terror business to not have arrangements with the local media to show something else when their units are responding.

It has been reported that there was a time dely on those broadcasts. May or may not be true.



In some of this video, it showed a group of police CT units holed up in a standoff position on a balcony across from the building where the Jewish center was located. Their tactics were a bit sloppy to say the least. One of their guys was standing up on a railing and firing his weapon above his head and blindly into a window. Yikes. I also saw a window being blown out that looked like the effects of a frag grenade. I really really hope that it was deployed by the terrorists and not the police. You never deploy a frag in an entry situation where hostages are involved, you use flashbangs or CS. The whole thing is leading me to wonder whether or not India's CT team is up to speed on the tactics and procedures that the rest of the world's elite are using. Either way, I hope they send their folks over to play with SAS and Delta and get schooled up. The bungling of the Munich Games response by the German authorities led to the creation of GSG9, and they're one of the best nowadays. Hopefully the Indians will follow suit.

They had the problem that they didn't really have any time to plan which will likely degrage performance to a significant extent.

[JoeyDonuts]

They had the problem that they didn't really have any time to plan which will likely degrage performance to a significant extent.

Yeah, but they'd been stung before with terror attacks. There's always a lot of violence in the cross-border area as well. As many headaches as they've had in the past with terror groups, I would have expected a much better response than what I witnessed. I saw sloppy tactics, zero coordination and leadership, and improper use of weapons.