Mystery Weapon Used Against M1A1?

[c0rbin]

Anyone know anything about this?



According to an unclassified Army report, the mystery projectile punched through the vehicle’s skirt and drilled a pencil-sized hole through the hull. The hole was so small that “my little finger will not go into it,” the report’s author noted.

The “something” continued into the crew compartment, where it passed through the gunner’s seatback, grazed the kidney area of the gunner’s flak jacket and finally came to rest after boring a hole 1½ to 2 inches deep in the hull on the far side of the tank. [!!!!]


Article from ArmyTimes.com (http://www.armytimes.com/print.php?f=1-292236-2336437.php)

[Jon_in_london]

Pehaps a glancing strike from a HEAT round.

[Stig]

Maybe it was an American weapon. Do the Yanks have anything like this?

Stig

[Doubt]

From the article:



…yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it?


We are talking about a shaped charge here. Shaped charges use hollow cones lined with soft metals (mostly copper, but tin also works,) to form a “plasma” penetrate that bores a hole through armor. The base of the cone faces the target. Detonation of the charge takes place from the back. The pressure from the blast inverts and compresses the metal so that it has some properties of a liquid and some of a solid. Which properties it has I do not understand. The plasma jet erodes and leaves a residue behind as it bores a hole in the armor.

The M-1 uses a British armor design that incorporates ceramic layers that are supposed to disperse the plasma jet. Looks like somebody discovered a soft spot.

The RPG 7 is one such weapon, and there are may different types of shape charges. Some are on rockets and some are fired from guns. The article does refer to a new weapon called the RPG 22.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/rpg-7.htm

The above link has info on the RPG 7. This is the first I have heard of the RPG 22 and I have no info on it.

Edited to add: This is also what John is refering to as a HEAT round. High Explosive Anti-Tank.

[EvilYeti]

Could be a lucky shot or one of the newer Soviet anti-tank weapons.

I'm leaning towards the lucky shot hypothesis, if the Iraqis really had some hi-tech anti-tank gear I don't see why they would have waited until now to use it.

[Agammamon]

If this actually happened it's unlikely to be a Monroe Effect warhead. In the process of penetrating the armor the plasma jet gets broken up and most of the internal damage is from molten metal slpashing around the inside of the tank (both the small amount from the warhead and from armor spalling off the inside). As a matter of fact it's pretty hard for me to imagine any sort of weapon that can drill a neat hole through the M1's armor, not break up or be deflected internally, and the be stopped neatly by the armor on the other side. Even a KK penetrator would smash a big dent in the far bulkhead and probably bounce around. So this is especially hard to imagine considering most of the M1's had been fitted with DU armor.


If it's 69 tn then it's an A2 and those definately have DU armor, the A1 w/DU are 65 tn.

[Skeptic]

I don't know, but I'll bet $10 there's already a web site up claiming it was a secret alien weapon by the shape-shiting lizards as part of the zionist illuminati world takeover plan based in the hollow north pole, or the equivalent...

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Agammamon
If this actually happened it's unlikely to be a Monroe Effect warhead. In the process of penetrating the armor the plasma jet gets broken up and most of the internal damage is from molten metal slpashing around the inside of the tank (both the small amount from the warhead and from armor spalling off the inside).

If it's 69 tn then it's an A2 and those definately have DU armor, the A1 w/DU are 65 tn.

The yellow residue still suggests a shaped charge. I would think that a marginal penetration by a small shaped charge may not spall so much. Also the M-1 has that kevlar wall paper to contain the spall. But that is a guess. I am not sure what the initial diameter of any given shaped charge is supposed to be, but I do know that the diameter of the hole will decrease as the plasma jet erodes.

They did say the hole was pencil sized. They did not say if that was at the entry point or the exit point of the armor. What other information are we missing?

[Starrman]

shape-shiting lizards

Does the shape depend on what the lizard man had for breakfast?

[whitefork]

For this, we need the Jedi Knight's deep knowledge of all matters military (and Martian).

[Agammamon]

That may be - anti-spall liners help. It went through a very thin part of the armor which may have been thin enough for the jet to maintain coherence.

[UnrepentantSinner]

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ODrdHhv5tvAJ:https://hosta.atsc.eustis.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/accp/in0546/lsn2.htm+rpg-22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Sorry to post the cache, but the original page wouldn't load.

b. AT Rocket Launcher RPG-22. The following paragraphs discuss the RPG-22 Rocket Launcher.

Soviet troops in Afghanistan used the disposable light antitank weapon (LAW) designated RPG-22. Although primarily an antitank weapon, the RPG-22 was used in Afghanistan against mujahideen strongholds.

(1) Description/Capabilities. Like the RPG-18, the newer RPG-22 is a short-range, tube-launched, disposable infantry antitank rocket weapon system, similar to the U.S. LAW system. The lightweight, collapsible launch tube consists of two parts:

An outer tube made of fiberglass.

A sliding inner tube made of aluminum.


The RPG-22 consists of a telescopic outer tube that is 850 millimeters long when extended for use. Simple pop-up sights are graduated for 50, 150, and 250 meters, and there is a temperature-compensating rear sight.

The aluminum inner tube extends 10 centimeters to the front of the outer tube in the firing position. It fires a 73-mm fin-stabilized rocket fitted with a chemical energy high explosive antitank warhead designed to penetrate 480 millimeters of armor at 90 degrees. However, the warhead has a much inferior capability against composite Chobham-type and reactive armor. The rocket has an effective range of 250 meters and a HEAT warhead capable of penetrating approximately 390 millimeters of armor.

The trigger and the pop-up rear peep sight are in the middle of the extended tube. The pop-up front sight is at the forward end of the outer tube. The front sight is calibrated for ranges of 50, 150, and 250 meters.

(2) Limitations. Instructions printed on the side of the RPG-22 launch tube indicate the back-blast covers an 90-degree sector out to 30 meters behind the weapon; that it should not be fired if a wall is closer than two meters behind it; and that the line of fire should be at least 20 centimeters above the ground.

(3) Remarks. The Soviets introduced the RPG-22 in 1985. In time, it will probably replace the RPG-18. As with the RPG-18, it has no dedicated grenadier; all soldiers train to fire the squad-level, throwaway weapon.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Stig
Maybe it was an American weapon. Do the Yanks have anything like this?

Stig

The description of the damage sounds more like an older weapon, the RPG 2, used by the Cong. Maybe someone aquired a stash of these older weapons?

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Doubt

They did say the hole was pencil sized. They did not say if that was at the entry point or the exit point of the armor. What other information are we missing?

Hmmm, could it possibly be some new combination shaped charged/DU round? The clean hole, lack of spalling/interior shrapnel plus the excessive penetration within the tank seem to indicate some type of armor piercing munition.

Edit:

Pictures here:
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=missile_mystery.htm

That doesn't look like a shaped charged to me. Possibly a combo of FF and bad luck?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Hmmm. The photos almost have me wondering if was a pencil sized sabot round or some such strangeness. The photos really make it look like a "bullet" went through the tank more so than a plasma stream. Curiouser and curiouser.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Hmmm. The photos almost have me wondering if was a pencil sized sabot round or some such strangeness. The photos really make it look like a "bullet" went through the tank more so than a plasma stream. Curiouser and curiouser.

Hmmm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if any Bradley's were in the vicinity then the likely culprit was an AP round from one of their 25mm cannon.

[Doubt]

Having now seen the photos, I am just plane confused.

The hole inside the tank is several times wider then the entry hole. That sounds more like a sabot. But they don’t have any piece of a projectile?

I suppose the only thing they can do is test the residue and determine the composition. If it is a soft metal, then it had to be a shaped charge. If it is a hard metal, then it was most likely a sabot.

Tungsten or DU = Sabot

Copper or tin = Shaped charge.

If it is a sabot, then we are most likely looking at a friendly fire problem as Yeti pointed out.

Adding to what UnrepentantSinner posted:

I have seen photos of the RPG 18. It is very much a copy of the M72 LAW. Neither weapon is considered a great tank killer. The RPG 22 may be a better weapon, but I don’t think I would want to trust a weapon that small.

[c0rbin]

I knew this board could help out :)

Thanks for the interest and the discussion!

[ASRomatifoso]

I am in the U.S. Navy (submariner). I was reading Armed Forces Journal today (we get free copies in my office; yay!) and they speculate that this was caused by a 1 in a million lucky shot from an RPG-27 or a RPVZ or something like that, both Russian-made. They found molten yellow metal around the entry hole and very little spalling inside the tank. The article said that the heat from it was enough to set off the tank's Halon firefighting system so pretty damned powerful for something so small in diameter. I don't know much about this sort of thing, just wanted to pass this on as AFJ is pretty reputable and may have the right story.

[peptoabysmal]

After some thought, I'm placing my bet on the RPG 29 (http://www.shipunov.com/shipunov-e/str/grenades/rpg29.htm)

[a_unique_person]

Reminds me of the anti-tamk "rifles" they had before WWII. Small calibre but designed to penetrate the armour.

You can guarantee that whatever it was is now in high demand, and it wasn't a lucky shot. It didn't just penetrate a weak spot, it kept on going.

[ASRomatifoso]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Reminds me of the anti-tamk "rifles" they had before WWII. Small calibre but designed to penetrate the armour.

You can guarantee that whatever it was is now in high demand, and it wasn't a lucky shot. It didn't just penetrate a weak spot, it kept on going.

Again, I don't know much about this but the article I quoted says that is was a lucky shot. It was of course aimed at that spot because the armor is thinner there (though not as thin as on top of the tank) but to be able to hit that spot while the tank is moving and for the round to penetrate and hit the circuit breaker that overloaded and stopped the tank is very lucky. It could have penetrated the tank and just buried in the opposite side in the armor, essentially doing no damage. The damage to the electrical system is what stopped the tank. So, in that sense, a lucky shot.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Reminds me of the anti-tamk "rifles" they had before WWII. Small calibre but designed to penetrate the armour.

You can guarantee that whatever it was is now in high demand, and it wasn't a lucky shot. It didn't just penetrate a weak spot, it kept on going.

No doubt it will be in high demand. The way this "projectile" kept going looked like molten metal to me.

[Alaric]

The M1s Chobham armour doesnt cover that area of the vehicle and is considered in general a VERY weak section of any tanks armour. The reason skirts were put there is to reduce the effect of small arms fire, grenades and older rocket propelled grenades against both the weakest area of a tank(its tank treads) or as in the case os supplemental armour added to german tanks in WW2 to predetonate HEAT roudes and get then to expend energy before actually hitting soemthing sensitive.


My thoughts are that it was some form of Anti-tank round due to the force it kept AFTER penetrating the tanks armour. Normally a AT missle uses the spall and "tongue" of plasma to do the damage whereas this left very little spalling which tends to indicate a more conventional projectile. Now, ive been out of this sort stuff for a while but im of the opinion that a AT rifle would be the LAST thing the US would want used against it. No exaust trail or rediculously bright flash, ease of carriage and frankly ease of use.

On the other hand, what calibre could POSSIBLEY be used? Can you imagine a 20mm rifle? Dear god-talk about a back breaker. It would need to be pretty advanced in design for a rifle with some way to bleed off all that KE energy flowing in the opposite direction.

What about the use of Tungsten in a towed AT peice? i mean..dont the russians still make them? I seem to remember Rapiera 3s were still frontline-while they are NOT the weapon in question...it seems logical to me that perhaps a smaller weapon for use by paratroops would be of smaller calibre with a more advanced penetrator to make up for the lost KE

[c0rbin]

I would not put it past an enemy of the kind we are fighting to resort to modify any kind of modification that will allow advantage of mobility, stealth, and speed.

[EvilYeti]

Here's a close up view of the damage.

http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery3.jpg

Wouldn't a shaped charge burn the surrounding area more? The pic above looks more like a bullet hole than anything.