aids cure (attempt 2)

[baldrick]

How about putting a hiv-killing substance inside a gp120 envolope. In other words, recreate the HIV virus, but take out the RNA and replace it with the hiv-killing substance (i.e. vinegar, bleach, alcohol). Then use it as a cure?

(theory being the gp120 will attach to the already infected cells, then kill them)

Obviously, any white blood cells that arn't infected will die, but the immune system should be able to produce new ones (am I right?)

What do you think?

[Prospero]

Interesting theory, but you're forgetting something: there are two phases of viral "life". The first is the Lytic cycle, which involves infecting a cell and promptly causing apoptosis (cell death, usually consisting of the cellular membrane being permeated or bursted). There is also the Lysogenic phase of the virus' existence. It is during this phase that that the virus reproduces itself using the cell's machinery. Usually a virus will infect a cell, induce the lysogenic phase until the cell is either unable to continue or until some switch in the cell causes the virus to switch to the lytic cycle, which then causes the cell to burst and spew forth a plethora of newly created viruses.

For your idea to work, you'd have to so thoroughly flood the body with your modified virus that you would statisitically hit every single cell that's infected. You'd have to do that because the HIV virus is able to replicate itself so easily.

The other problem with your treatment, and really its fatal flaw, is the fact that it's basically the treatment used now: total immunosuppression. There will still be other HIV viruses floating around waiting to stumble across acceptable cells. If your virus is not sufficient, eventually the self-replicating HIV virus will again dominate the body. It's a variation on the current treatment, and thus not of much use. Vaccines are the key in this matter. It's just a matter of creating them. Any subsequent treatments are just making things worse by allocating research funds to areas that are focusing on prolonging the problem as opposed to ending it.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by baldrick
How about putting a hiv-killing substance inside a gp120 envolope. In other words, recreate the HIV virus, but take out the RNA and replace it with the hiv-killing substance (i.e. vinegar, bleach, alcohol). Then use it as a cure?

(theory being the gp120 will attach to the already infected cells, then kill them)


Im not sure I understand you.

You want to remove RNA from a virion and fill it with bleach?

Apart from the fact that thats so impractical its almost comical, how is it going to help?

[Jon_in_london]

Prospero: what does this mean? "The other problem with your treatment, and really its fatal flaw, is the fact that it's basically the treatment used now: total immunosuppression. "

I have never heard of global immunsupression being used to treat HIV, do you have a reference?

Also read up on my HIV path 101 (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24296&highlight=pathogenesis) thread as your post seems a bit simplistic and generalised. (no offence intended).

[Deetee]

Originally posted by baldrick
How about putting a hiv-killing substance inside a gp120 envolope. In other words, recreate the HIV virus, but take out the RNA and replace it with the hiv-killing substance (i.e. vinegar, bleach, alcohol). Then use it as a cure?

(theory being the gp120 will attach to the already infected cells, then kill them)

Obviously, any white blood cells that arn't infected will die, but the immune system should be able to produce new ones (am I right?)

What do you think?

Apart from the impossibility of containing some toxin within a glycoprotein envelope, I am afraid that getting this package to bind to "only HIV infected cells" is doomed to failure.

gp120 will bind to any cell with an appropriate receptor - this means healthy, uninfected CD4 lymphocytes in addition to other cells vital for life (other mononuclear cells, glial cells etc) would be targetted and destroyed by your (impossible) hiv killer.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Deetee

gp120 will bind to any cell with an appropriate receptor - this means healthy, uninfected CD4 lymphocytes in addition to other cells vital for life (other mononuclear cells, glial cells etc) would be targetted and destroyed by your (impossible) hiv killer.

Originally posted by Prospero
For your idea to work, you'd have to so thoroughly flood the body with your modified virus that you would statisitically hit every single cell that's infected. You'd have to do that because the HIV virus is able to replicate itself so easily.


Originally posted by Baldrick
Obviously, any white blood cells that arn't infected will die, but the immune system should be able to produce new ones


Deetee; do glial etc.. cells have CD4 surface markers? I was rather under then impression that CD4 was a defining marker for T-helper lympocytes. If you have any references I would be really very gratefull. Anyway, baldrick is right in saying that the CD4 Tcells will grow back. You can do without them for a while.

Prospero, you might not have to hit every single infected cell as even if you only got to 20% of them thats still a good thing. You can repeat the treatments over and over to get the viral load down.

While baldrick's idea of putting vinegar into HIV virions might seem silly, it may be a good idea if you could insert a lethal gene into a replication deficient HIV and feed loads of this to a patient to kill of the CD4 lympocytes and purge the virus. But I think I have mentioned this in aids cure (attempt 1).

[Deetee]

CD4 is a cellular surface molecule which acts as a receptor for gp120 binding. Co-receptors are also required for succesful HIV binding (chemokine receptors). Several cell types posess CD4 and therefore can be infected by HIV. These are mainly T lymphocytes, but also other cells in the macrophage/monocyte group such as macrophages, dendritic cells, micoglial cells in the CNS, and I think some cells in the gut. For references I'll have to get back to you.....

[Deetee]

Microglia:
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1997/04.03/CluesFoundtoHow.html (http://)

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/daids/dtpdb/ccr3.htm (http://)

(stuff on ways to block CNS infection by blocking binding to CCreceptors)

I also found a reference to cells in the brain being susceptible to SIV infection in the absence of CD4 receptors, so targetting CD4 alone might not prove the most effective way to prevent infection or to treat HIVinfected patients.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/94/26/14742.pdf (http://)

I'm sure there's lots more stuff (- all I did was google)

[Jon_in_london]

Interesting, thanks deetee.

I had never heard of microglials before.

Another strategy would be to use recombinant replication deficient HIV with a lethal gene under the control of an HIV promoter, thereby ensuring that only cells with HIV transcription factors are targeted.

[Deetee]

I'm more clinically orientated - so I'll take your word for it on that score!

[Jon_in_london]

Aye, a group published an interesting paper using that strategey to combat papiloma virus.

Ill dig up a link if it tickles yer fancy.

[baldrick]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Im not sure I understand you.

You want to remove RNA from a virion and fill it with bleach?

Apart from the fact that thats so impractical its almost comical, how is it going to help?

I thought that was obvious.... Kill the virus, stop the production of more cells that cripple the immune system. The Immune system can then fight back with antibodies. Basically, Bomb the bomb making factory.

As for inserting bleach into a gp120 envolope, I know it's quite comical, but I think it's physically possible (cells have cell membranes - the job of the cell membrane is to stop outside liquids & fatty substances from interfering from the inside material - therefore liquids - i.e. bleach, alcohol can be inserted into the gp120 envolope)

If I had a fool-proof idea then I'd be on CNN by now, It's just a starting block for the more intelligent of this forum, as another possible angle to tackle this virus.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by baldrick


I thought that was obvious.... Kill the virus, stop the production of more cells that cripple the immune system. The Immune system can then fight back with antibodies. Basically, Bomb the bomb making factory.

As for inserting bleach into a gp120 envolope, I know it's quite comical, but I think it's physically possible (cells have cell membranes - the job of the cell membrane is to stop outside liquids & fatty substances from interfering from the inside material - therefore liquids - i.e. bleach, alcohol can be inserted into the gp120 envolope)

If I had a fool-proof idea then I'd be on CNN by now, It's just a starting block for the more intelligent of this forum, as another possible angle to tackle this virus.

Baldrick- 'a starting block for the more intelligent' ?! come now! dont do yourself down like that. I agree that there are those more wise but I have seen nothing to suggest you are less intelligent than anyone else here.

I am assuming your idea is that bleach filled 'gp120 envelopes' would merge with an infected cell, deposit its bleach and kill the cell? I doubt that this is physically possible beacuse the bleach would destroy the 'gp120 envelope' on contact long before you could put these envelopes into a patient.

If your idea is to get bleach selectively into virions inside a patient.....well....

Anywho: Heres that reference http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12573058&dopt=Abstract

[tracer]

Originally posted by baldrick
How about putting a hiv-killing substance inside a gp120 envolope.
I dunno -- 120 gold pieces sounds awfully expensive for just an envelope. I can get a box of 100 envelopes at the stationery store for a buck ninety-nine.
In other words, recreate the HIV virus,
Isn't saying "HIV virus" kinda like saying "ATM machine" or "PIN number"?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by tracer
Isn't saying "HIV virus" kinda like saying "ATM machine" or "PIN number"?

There is some redundant redundantcy there.

[Deetee]

Or just redundantly tautological repetition.

[tracer]

... brought to you, of course, by the Department of Redundancy Department. We here at the D.R.D. Department are committed to your repetition needs, which are our commitment.

[baldrick]

When an acid + base react, they creat heat and carbon dioxide (which can both be used to kill a cell. Carbon Dioxide to deprive the cell of oxygen). How about (if it's technically possible), to put make 2 gp120 envolopes. In one envolope, put a acid. In the second envelope put a base. Inject the first one, then the second one

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by baldrick
When an acid + base react, they creat heat and carbon dioxide (which can both be used to kill a cell. Carbon Dioxide to deprive the cell of oxygen). How about (if it's technically possible), to put make 2 gp120 envolopes. In one envolope, put a acid. In the second envelope put a base. Inject the first one, then the second one

I have a cunning plan my lord......

[geni]

Originally posted by baldrick
When an acid + base react, they creat heat and carbon dioxide


Nope heat salt(of some form) and water

[Jon_in_london]

Why not just put little mini-marines in them with flame throwers?

[baldrick]

Originally posted by geni



Nope heat salt(of some form) and water

I stand corrected; When sodium hydrogen-carbonate (baking soda) and vinegar react, it creates Carbon Dioxide from the reaction. I remember also reading somewhere that the reaction causes minor heat, possibly from loss of electrons maybe

[Jon_in_london]

How about just putting sharp bits of broken glass in 'em?

[ImpyTimpy]

Why not just microwave the patient? It'll heat the body up enough to kill the virus everywhere. Much more effective then injections.

[baldrick]

Will all acids kill the gp120 envelope?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by baldrick
Will all acids kill the gp120 envelope?

Heres the problem Baldrick: Anything nasty enough to kill something as big and powerfull as a cell will eat your gp120 envelope for breakfast.

[The Don]

Originally posted by baldrick


I stand corrected; When sodium hydrogen-carbonate (baking soda) and vinegar react, it creates Carbon Dioxide from the reaction. I remember also reading somewhere that the reaction causes minor heat, possibly from loss of electrons maybe

If heat is given off, it would be a more or less standard exothermic reaction.

CaCO3 + 2HC2H3O2 turns into CaC2O4 + CO2+ H2O

Due to the fact that the products of the reaction are more energetically stable than the starting point energy is given off.

[baldrick]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Heres the problem Baldrick: Anything nasty enough to kill something as big and powerfull as a cell will eat your gp120 envelope for breakfast.

I am aware of this, so this is my plan:

Instead of putting a toxic chemical/RNA strand in the gp120 envolope, put two chemicals that are non-toxic in themselves, but become toxic when they react together;

My acid + base idea was this:

gp120 envolope 1: Contains sodium hydrogen carbonate

gp120 envolope 2: Contains vinegar

Inject one, let it get attached to the infected cells, then inject the other gp120 envolope. I don't know about the technical feasability of this though...