On being a CTist - split from:Shattered lives where 9/11 truth is present.

[Homeland Insurgency]

I think there are people on both sides of the fence on this topic who are a little obsessed. That being said there are many people who are just sick in a metal illness paranoid way and before 9/11 even happened. Why wouldn't they latch on to 9/11? It's what they do. They're distrustful and paranoid to begin with. But that doesn't mean there isn't more to 9/11 then we are being told.

I remember the scene in close encounters where the government comes and tries to clam the fears of all the people who claimed to see the UFO's. The Richard Dreyfus character tries to tell his story and is interrupted by some old crazy guy who starts talking about bigfoot. The implication was now no one was going to listen to him because he was lumped in with the crazy bigfoot guy.

[Thunder]

I think there are people on both sides of the fence on this topic who are a little obsessed. That being said there are many people who are just sick in a metal illness paranoid way and before 9/11 even happened. Why wouldn't they latch on to 9/11? It's what they do. They're distrustful and paranoid to begin with. .

i concur. paranoid people tend to gravitate towards ideas and theories that enable their paranoia. i truly doubt non-paranoid people looked into 9-11 and became paranoid because of it. ive been paranoid myself, before, but somehow 9-11 theories just seemed to be beyond the pale for me. who'da thunk it?

you know, i was very troubled, when i was watching "9-11 Mysteries", at the end captions it send things like "you will lose friends". this is what a cult tells its followers:

"people will desert you...you will lose friends...but its all a worthwhile sacrifice...in the name of Truth".

[Alex Libman]

One life shattered. Right here.

So what?

[MRC_Hans]

One life shattered. Right here.

So what?Sorry to hear. Do share.

Hans

[Alex Libman]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

[Walter Ego]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

Wow! Spoken like a true cultist. How superior in every way you must be to the brainwashed masses, aka the “sheeple.” No job, no friends, no family but still marching for capital-T Truth! Or have you reached that ultimate level of dedication yet?

[Dave Rogers]

And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within.

The problem is not the ability to consider these ideas, but the inability, having considered them, to reject them.

Dave

[Alex Libman]

The problem is not the ability to consider these ideas, but the inability, having considered them, to reject them.

As if you have a choice...

[Dave Rogers]

As if you have a choice...

So being a truther is a choice, but not being a truther isn't?

Dave

[Alex Libman]

So being a truther is a choice, but not being a truther isn't?

Yup. Everyone is a good little sheep by default. Rebellion is a deliberate act of conscience that is highly discouraged and is contrary to all your tribal instincts. You just want to run with the tribe. But your mind tells you that you can't.

And, as I've said a thousand times, it's not a matter of absolutes. You cannot "prove" that Hitler or Stalin or Big Brother or the U.S. government is evil. There is no codified legal footnote you can site. It is a highly personal and subjective decision.

You can try not to think about it, but the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 == 4 when you go to work and through the function of your mind make a living is the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 != 5 when you read into current events. And you want 2 + 2 to be 5 just then, so you could just relax and do something fun instead. You want it very bad, and for a while you fool yourself, but ultimately it doesn't add up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You can't just turn on your rational mind when you need it, turn it off when you don't!

You scratch beyond the surface - in philosophy, politics, ethics - beyond the frequency range where others want you to stay. Your allegiance to other things fades away: you no longer care about what view of history is convenient for your country, your family, your employer, etc - you want the Truth! And that's how you become... a Truther!

[Walter Ego]

Yup. Everyone is a good little sheep by default. Rebellion is a deliberate act of conscience that is highly discouraged and is contrary to all your tribal instincts. You just want to run with the tribe. But your mind tells you that you can't.

And, as I've said a thousand times, it's not a matter of absolutes. You cannot "prove" that Hitler or Stalin or Big Brother or the U.S. government is evil. There is no codified legal footnote you can site. It is a highly personal and subjective decision.

You can try not to think about it, but the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 == 4 when you go to work and through the function of your mind make a living is the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 != 5 when you read into current events. And you want 2 + 2 to be 5 just then, so you could just relax and do something fun instead. You want it very bad, and for a while you fool yourself, but ultimately it doesn't add up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You can't just turn on your rational mind when you need it, turn it off when you don't!

You scratch beyond the surface - in philosophy, politics, ethics - beyond the frequency range where others want you to stay. Your allegiance to other things fades away: you no longer care about what view of history is convenient for your country, your family, your employer, etc - you want the Truth! And that's how you become... a Truther!

You've convinced me, kid. Where do I sign up? :rolleyes:

[Dave Rogers]

Yup. Everyone is a good little sheep by default. Rebellion is a deliberate act of conscience that is highly discouraged and is contrary to all your tribal instincts. You just want to run with the tribe. But your mind tells you that you can't.

That sums up your problem. If your choice is to differ from the herd, then you're no less reacting to the herd than if you choose to comply with the herd. And the classic truther delusion about debunkers is that, since we're siding with the overall majority opinion, we must therefore be good little sheep. It's based in the false assumption that the direction of the herd is necessarily wrong. What my interpretation of the evidence on 9/11 is, is that the herd is going in the right direction, though not necessarily for the right reasons. Therefore, though on balance I don't particularly want to run with the tribe - not least because it happens to be somebody else's tribe - I find that, in this instance, the tribe happens to be going in the same direction as me.

You can try not to think about it, but the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 == 4 when you go to work and through the function of your mind make a living is the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 != 5 when you read into current events. And you want 2 + 2 to be 5 just then, so you could just relax and do something fun instead.

In this particular case, I've evaluated 2+2 very thoroughly, and found it still sums to four. The truth movement, on the other hand, is telling me that it sums to three, seven, forty-eight and nine hundred and eleven, all at the same time. Sorry, but that's not intelligent rebellion; it's simple confusion.

I've studied 9/11 conspiracy theories because I'm prepared to consider the possibility that some of them may be true. I've yet to find one that doesn't fall apart when subjected to any kind of critical analysis.

Dave

[chillzero]

Dave Rogers - those are good responses, and Alex, thanks for sharing.

Walter, I always feel that when someone who holds views I neither agree with or understand takes time to explain their viewpoint, it is much more beneficial to pay attention to what they say, rather than dismiss it. Opening an honest dialogue and identifying the differences will be more educational to both sides of the discussion.

[Stupid]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

Alex, you got off to a good start there, but then in your other posts you fell into jref trap #5...."let the truthers start describing what they mean, in detail".

It could be argued that many people feel the need to hold "noble and counter-intuitive beliefs"....which I believe may be a healthy way to stay-on-top-of-your-game...but this thread is about those who have turned it into an unhealthy obsession.

No doubt, there are those who TRULY believe 911 is a conspiracy, and we see them protesting in the streets. That is exactly what I'd do
IF ..I saw real evidence of gov't involved 911 conspiracy.

I go to the truther-sites, to see their evidence...I don't rely on jref to filter it.

I have been outside my bubble, and the air is often too thin to support reality.....but I live near the edge of my bubble, just in case.

=S=

[A W Smith]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

I have noticed the absence of evidence, facts, math, that you would consider in the above post. You are willing to sacrifice friends, relatives, employers, relationships, all for nothing but ideas and possibilities that you mislabel as "truth" . What you describe is fanatical religion. anything that stands in the way of this belief system is to be discarded. When shown the leaders of your movement like Jones are proven charlatans and liars, or one of your factoids in in error. you return to the corner of your home where you keep your 'truth" altar to burn more incense, make another personal sacrifice, and return with a sack cloth bag of. "well what about this?". It is truly sad. You should really reconsider and get a check up, from the neck up.

[T.A.M.]

I think Alex needs to understand that there is a distinct difference between truth, and "The 9/11 truth". The former is paramount, the latter is filled with lies, deception, mistruths, speculation, and in some cases pure outlandish fiction.

TAM:)

[beachnut]

I think there are people on both sides of the fence on this topic who are a little obsessed. That being said there are many people who are just sick in a metal illness paranoid way and before 9/11 even happened. Why wouldn't they latch on to 9/11? It's what they do. They're distrustful and paranoid to begin with. But that doesn't mean there isn't more to 9/11 then we are being told.

I remember the scene in close encounters where the government comes and tries to clam the fears of all the people who claimed to see the UFO's. The Richard Dreyfus character tries to tell his story and is interrupted by some old crazy guy who starts talking about bigfoot. The implication was now no one was going to listen to him because he was lumped in with the crazy bigfoot guy.
Neat, you use a fantasy movie to justify your post that debunkers who base their obsession with truth on math and physics are the same as 9/11 truthers who base their ideas on hearsay and pure bunk?

Neat, you actually know 9/11 truth is based on paranoia, yet you hold out for fantasy of your ideas to come true?

You do understand Close Encounters of the Third Kind was a fantasy movie? I thus agree with you, 9/11 truth terrorist apologists are fully rooted in fantasy. And in a special way, in their own minds they will be right no matter what they make up.

Neat, if you could present some evidence to distance 9/11 truth from Bigfoot.


Sad that truth is it's own reward for 9/11 truth. You see, 9/11 truth is really a fantasy and dirt dumb idea fest; NOT a search for truth, more of a wallowing in ignorance, lies and hearsay fantasy.

[MarkyX]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

That's a lot of checkmarks.

[Alex Libman]

Sorry to sound like an old fart giving out unwanted advice, but, well, here we are. You people lack perspective.

For starters read Solzhenitsyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn), Shalamov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varlam_Shalamov), etc. And, most importantly of all, abandon your "we're Americans, our poop don't stink" attitude. Your government finds it profitable to keep you on a much longer leash, but that's not what true freedom is.

And stop treating potential government conspiracies like you do ghost stories that you get off on debunking. How can there be evidence when the accused (the government) has complete control over it? If there was clear-cut evidence, this would be a no-brainer, but it isn't. You have to make moral decisions based on a lot of unknowns. Thus is life. Deal with it.

Take for example the simple fact that Flight 77 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77) hit the 1/10th of the Pentagon that was nearly empty due to repairs (http://911review.com/attack/pentagon/location.html). This is on the long list of things that a criminal psychologist would identify as circumstantial evidence that the "terrorists" wanted to kill as few people as possible while accomplishing the greatest political impact. It doesn't prove anything of course, but how do you react to that fact (and hundreds of others) depends on your moral attitude. It feels like the non-Truthers have a scared little accountant in their heads saying: "Yaay, I found a loophole! I can still imagine the government being innocent and good! Now I can go back to watching Family Guy in peace!"

There's no place you "sign up". It is an individual matter, between you and your conscience.

[beachnut]

Sorry to sound like an old fart giving out unwanted advice, but, well, here we are. You people lack perspective.

For starters read Solzhenitsyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn), Shalamov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varlam_Shalamov), etc. And, most importantly of all, abandon your "we're Americans, our poop don't stink" attitude. Your government finds it profitable to keep you on a much longer leash, but that's not what true freedom is.

And stop treating potential government conspiracies like you do ghost stories that you get off on debunking. How can there be evidence when the accused (the government) has complete control over it? If there was clear-cut evidence, this would be a no-brainer, but it isn't. You have to make moral decisions based on a lot of unknowns. Thus is life. Deal with it.

Take for example the simple fact that Flight 77 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77) hit the 1/10th of the Pentagon that was nearly empty due to repairs (http://911review.com/attack/pentagon/location.html). This is on the long list of things that a criminal psychologist would identify as circumstantial evidence that the "terrorists" wanted to kill as few people as possible while accomplishing the greatest political impact. It doesn't prove anything of course, but how do you react to that fact (and hundreds of others) depends on your moral attitude. It feels like the non-Truthers have a scared little accountant in their heads saying: "Yaay, I found a loophole! I can still imagine the government being innocent and good! Now I can go back to watching Family Guy in peace!"

There's no place you "sign up". It is an individual matter, between you and your conscience.
... not a single thing to do with 9/11. Nearly empty. Is that like nearly full? What does it mean? What a crock of nothing.

The terrorist hit the side he lined up on due to nothing! Oops, are you apologizing for the terrorist again?



Anyone who support 9/11 truth is clearly in trouble with his peers, and family due to the fact only a grade school education is needed to understand 9/11. I have no idea why a few fringe people glom to 9/11 truth lies, fantasies, and junk science; do you?


Gulag mentality? What does gulag have to do with understanding 9/11? Why are all terrorist apologist hung up with some solution that is worthless for 9/11?

Gee, we vote and avoid prison, we recall idiot politicians and can be active without prison! What do political prisoners of the old USSR have to do with understanding 9/11? Not a darn thing!

poor, poor, 9/11 truthers...
It is not a conscience thing (more of a lack of knowledge and sound judgment), it is only a matter of understanding 9/11; 9/11 truth does not understand 9/11 and spread lies, fantasy and false information. They even charge 15 bucks for the DVD. Capitalism is the only thing American about 9/11 truth terrorist apologists, the rest is old fashion hearsay and fraud.

[Homeland Insurgency]

Neat, you use a fantasy movie to justify your post that debunkers who base their obsession with truth on math and physics are the same as 9/11 truthers who base their ideas on hearsay and pure bunk?

Yes it is pretty neat ain't it? If you don't like that fantasy here is another...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

Fantasy or not the moral is still valid.

Neat, you actually know 9/11 truth is based on paranoia, yet you hold out for fantasy of your ideas to come true?

So you don't understand what a moral to a story is? How surprising.

You do understand Close Encounters of the Third Kind was a fantasy movie? I thus agree with you, 9/11 truth terrorist apologists are fully rooted in fantasy. And in a special way, in their own minds they will be right no matter what they make up.

You certainly need a lot of explaining don't you? Except when it comes to 9/11 that is.

Neat, if you could present some evidence to distance 9/11 truth from Bigfoot.

Do you have evidence bigfoot had something to do with 9/11? Now I'll need some explaining on that one.

Sad that truth is it's own reward for 9/11 truth. You see, 9/11 truth is really a fantasy and dirt dumb idea fest; NOT a search for truth, more of a wallowing in ignorance, lies and hearsay fantasy.

Well if you don't like the Emperor New clothes here is the plagiarized version...

http://wtc.nist.gov/

You've probably never heard of it. You don't like fantasy.

[bje]

Yup. Everyone is a good little sheep by default. Rebellion is a deliberate act of conscience that is highly discouraged and is contrary to all your tribal instincts. You just want to run with the tribe. But your mind tells you that you can't.

Yup, Creationists say the same thing, too.

And, as I've said a thousand times, it's not a matter of absolutes. You cannot "prove" that Hitler or Stalin or Big Brother or the U.S. government is evil. There is no codified legal footnote you can site. It is a highly personal and subjective decision.Yes, of course, I've heard the "there's no objective reality" thingy before. Very post-modern, everyone's opinion is "equally valid" kinda thing.

You can try not to think about it, but the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 == 4 when you go to work and through the function of your mind make a living is the same mind that tells you that 2 + 2 != 5 when you read into current events. Self-delusion is like that, when you start justifying that everybody just doesn't have what it takes to "open their minds" to the reality you have discovered. But that's exactly what self-delusion is, a comfort for sure that you have discovered the "truth", unavailable to others because -- well, you know, they just don't have "what it takes."

You scratch beyond the surface - in philosophy, politics, ethics - beyond the frequency range where others want you to stay. Your allegiance to other things fades away: you no longer care about what view of history is convenient for your country, your family, your employer, etc - you want the Truth! And that's how you become... a Truther!
Or a Creationist, Holocaust Denier, moon-landing hoax believer, germ-theory denier, you know, the whole "denial" thing.

Have you considered becoming an Evangelist Minister?

What's interesting is how often the same expressed self-delusion permeates 9/11 Truthers' thinking. The very term "sheeple" has been around since late 2001 and used by 9/11 Truthers to delude themselves in the same way.

Off to the shrink with you, I say!

[beachnut]

Yes it is pretty neat ain't it? If you don't like that fantasy here is another...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

Fantasy or not the moral is still valid.



So you don't understand what a moral to a story is? How surprising.



You certainly need a lot of explaining don't you? Except when it comes to 9/11 that is.



Do you have evidence bigfoot had something to do with 9/11? Now I'll need some explaining on that one.



Well if you don't like the Emperor New clothes here is the plagiarized version...

http://wtc.nist.gov/

You've probably never heard of it. You don't like fantasy.

Talk? More talk? real analysis and understanding can be sold for 4000 dollar an hour. When will 9/11 truth use evidence or something with substance to support their lies, false ideas and fantasy? Never, this is why the terrorist apologists have only lies, fantasy and false ideas.

Why waste time posting to my tripe when you can save the world with your evidence? But you got none. Zip. Nil … Too bad you can't point to the fantasy of the NIST reports or support your work with substance.


9/11 truth has nothing, and you have nothing to support your ideas on 9/11. Common ground.

9/11 truth failed as of 9/11. It is 7 years of fantasy marked by zero support. I would ignore my posts and try to apply what we all learned (or missed) in grade school, cause and effect. I am amazed at how many first graders easily apply cause and effect and how many 9/11 truth supports fail to do the same.


Support and passing on the nut case ideas of 9/11 truth can not have a positive result, save a few who sell the truth DVD to those too dumb to know better. Shatter lives which will be saved by using the education offered and so far ignored by those still fooled by 9/11 truth.

Bigfoot belief is exactly like your beliefs in 9/11 junk ideas, they are not based on facts and evidence. I did not spend much time working on my post, as you have not spent anytime gathering evidence to support your failed ideas on 9/11. Sorry.

[Alex Libman]

[...]

Off to the shrink with you, I say!

How does one read insults like that, including threats of being thrown in a Psikhushka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union), and then go get a good night's sleep? I guess one needs to reply with something like this:

Like your Soviet analogues before you, you are not preaching atheism to the masses, you are selling communism, though just a slightly different brand of it. I am the only true atheist I have met here. The rest of you not only believe in gods, you create them and empower them - powerful gods against whom all resistance is futile. But it is you who will suffer the wrath of your own gods, I can escape them. It won't be easy, but sooner or later - Atlas will shrug!

Your government-worship cult will one day be defeated, and your great-grandchildren will be ashamed to read the harm you have done to the human civilization within your lifetime.

[beachnut]

How does one read insults like that, including threats of being thrown in a Psikhushka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union), and then go get a good night's sleep? I guess one needs to reply with something like this:

Like your Soviet analogues before you, you are not preaching atheism to the masses, you are selling communism, though just a slightly different brand of it. I am the only true atheist I have met here. The rest of you not only believe in gods, you create them and empower them - powerful gods against whom all resistance is futile. But it is you who will suffer the wrath of your own gods, I can escape them. It won't be easy, but sooner or later - Atlas will shrug!

Your government-worship cult will one day be defeated, and your great-grandchildren will be ashamed to read the harm you have done to the human civilization within your lifetime.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact;
You don't understand 9/11 truth has only lies, fantasy, and false information mainly based on junk science and hearsay. This post proves it along with your total lack of evidence. So talk away about how our grandkids will be ashamed for us using physics and math proving you have zero evidence.

I see your post and see the irony in the hypocrisy, and it will be self critiquing as your grandkids cringe at your lack of substance and my grandkids at my lack of writing skills. I will take my hits...

[PhantomWolf]

Sorry to sound like an old fart giving out unwanted advice, but, well, here we are. You people lack perspective.

I'd say you were lacking something else, but since I already have apparently commited a felony twice on this board by breaching the MA, I'll refrain today.

For starters read Solzhenitsyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn), Shalamov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varlam_Shalamov), etc. And, most importantly of all, abandon your "we're Americans, our poop don't stink" attitude. Your government finds it profitable to keep you on a much longer leash, but that's not what true freedom is.

Perhaps you should start out realising that at least 50% of the debunkers here are not from the US and that it's not our Government.

And stop treating potential government conspiracies like you do ghost stories that you get off on debunking. How can there be evidence when the accused (the government) has complete control over it? If there was clear-cut evidence, this would be a no-brainer, but it isn't. You have to make moral decisions based on a lot of unknowns. Thus is life. Deal with it.

Wow, I guess you feel it perfectly acceptable to accuse people of 3,000 counts of murder with zero evidence. Nice to know what sort of morality we're dealing with.

Take for example the simple fact that Flight 77 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77) hit the 1/10th of the Pentagon that was nearly empty due to repairs (http://911review.com/attack/pentagon/location.html).

And as a typical truther you link to a Truther site instead of trying to find out the truth. Try looking here. (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/911victims/) 184 people in an area about 40 feet arcoss and 120 feet in length. Yeah, extremely "nearly empty"


This is on the long list of things that a criminal psychologist would identify as circumstantial evidence that the "terrorists" wanted to kill as few people as possible while accomplishing the greatest political impact.

They might also point out that the plane was coming from that side Pentagon so hit it because it was the closest side and had the clearest line of attack for the pilot.

It doesn't prove anything of course, but how do you react to that fact (and hundreds of others) depends on your moral attitude.

It might help if you'd actually get your "Facts" right first. Perhaps you can be the first Truther to succeed in my challenge. Give me one provenly correct fact about 9/11 that at least 90% of the Truth Movement agree on. And no the date if the attack doesn't count.

It feels like the non-Truthers have a scared little accountant in their heads saying: "Yaay, I found a loophole! I can still imagine the government being innocent and good!

Whereas truthers all have Gillian in there's going "ooo, I don't understand that Skipper, it must be a conspriasy by the evil Guberment!"

Now I can go back to watching Family Guy in peace!

Futurama is better

There's no place you "sign up". It is an individual matter, between you and your conscience.

heh, I thought it was something you aquired after getting the reason and logic part of your brain removed.

[PhantomWolf]

How does one read insults like that, including threats of being thrown in a Psikhushka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union), and then go get a good night's sleep? I guess one needs to reply with something like this:

Like your Soviet analogues before you, you are not preaching atheism to the masses, you are selling communism, though just a slightly different brand of it. I am the only true atheist I have met here. The rest of you not only believe in gods, you create them and empower them - powerful gods against whom all resistance is futile. But it is you who will suffer the wrath of your own gods, I can escape them. It won't be easy, but sooner or later - Atlas will shrug!

Your government-worship cult will one day be defeated, and your great-grandchildren will be ashamed to read the harm you have done to the human civilization within your lifetime.

Alex you are the almost perfect example of projection. You believe that since your belief of 9/11 being a US Government Conspriacy is based entirely in your belief that the US Government is evil thus would do it, that anyone that would despute it must believe that US Government is faultless and perfect and so could never have done anything like it. You fail to consider that many of us think Bush could have been replaced with a Chimpaneze and it would have done a better job, that the "War on Terror" has made things worse, nit better, and that the US really needs a kick square in the gonads to wake itself up out of its we're so great navel gazing, but have still managed to evaluate the evidence and decided that 9/11 really was 19 P.O. muslims who simply flew 3 planes in buildings and crashed one in a padock because that is what all the real facts says happened. That you can't understand this shows just how far gone from any form of reality you are.

[Alex Libman]

You just don't get it...

There is no evidence!

Zilch!

Zip!

Zero!

Nada!

Nyet!

So what?

[PhantomWolf]

You just don't get it...

There is no evidence!

Zilch!

Zip!

Zero!

Nada!

Nyet!

So what?

So this isn't evidence? (http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/)

[Dave Rogers]

You just don't get it...

There is no evidence!

There's plenty, truthers make it up all the time.

What you don't get is the possibility that we have examined the evidence more thoroughly than you, and hence come to a different conclusion. I'm prepared to consider that possibility of you. So come on: show me what I haven't considered, and I'll re-evaluate. So far, though, I've seen everything you have to offer before, and your case still makes no sense. Show me where your analysis is better than mine.

Dave

[Orphia Nay]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

Name one iota of Truth that proves an inside job.

[Alex Libman]

How silly...

The burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer.

When a salesman comes to your door, do you have to prove to him you don't want what he's selling?

It should be the same way with government's 9/11 bull. I ain't buying.

[Bananaman]

Alex, you have not one tiny shred of evidence to back up your opinions with, and are utterly incapable of disproving any part of the official narrative of 9/11.

Do you see why we regard you with pity? We're actually trying to help you to not make such a total fool of yourself.

Bananaman.

[Alex Libman]

Any further fanatical zombie-like chanting of the word "evidence" will be ignored.

You people need serious logic lessons...

[Jonnyclueless]

How silly...

The burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer.

When a salesman comes to your door, do you have to prove to him you don't want what he's selling?

It should be the same way with government's 9/11 bull. I ain't buying.

So how do you intend to sell these conspiracy theories? You seem to imply there is no proof of what really happened on 9/11 (what you would call an official story I guess). Well anyone can doubt anything they choose. What is your evidence to sell your story?

Or is this just about spewing mindless rhetoric to make one feel smart even though they are saying absolutely nothing?

[PhantomWolf]

How silly...

The burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer.

When a salesman comes to your door, do you have to prove to him you don't want what he's selling?

It should be the same way with government's 9/11 bull. I ain't buying.

The Mainstream Version of 9/11 has all of it's evidence on the table already. They have done their part in the burden of proof. All you have is incredulousness.

[Alex Libman]

So how do you intend to sell these conspiracy theories?

I don't.

I didn't start this thread (or the one it was split from), or any 9/11 thread that I can recall, ever.

I'm a Truther. Some people find that intolerable, and some are genuinely curious. I answer them.


The Mainstream Version of 9/11 has all of it's evidence on the table already. They have done their part in the burden of proof.

Nope, I don't buy it. I've seen Hogan's Heroes episodes that had more believable villains and fewer plot holes. Sorry.

[Bananaman]

Alex:
Any further fanatical zombie-like chanting of the word "evidence" will be ignored.

You people need serious logic lessons...

Alex, what you've written in the quote is just plain bonkers. Can you not see that? From your posts one can only draw depressing conclusions about your grasp on reality.

Bananaman.

[Alex Libman]

I don't force my "grasp on reality" on others. You do.

[Dave Rogers]

When a salesman comes to your door, do you have to prove to him you don't want what he's selling?

It should be the same way with government's 9/11 bull. I ain't buying.

Neither are we. We're not buying the truth movement's bull either. The difference is that Jim Hoffman has a seller's market in you and your ilk.

Let me explain what's laughable about your posts. You go to 911review.com, read a page that makes some assertions about the renovation of the part of the Pentagon that was damaged, and memorise its conclusions. You assume that the information presented is correct. You assume that the conclusion follows from the information. You then come here, where we have examined this information in detail and determined that (a) only half of the side of the Pentagon hit had been renovated, (b) this means that there is a 40% chance that a randomly chosen side of the Pentagon contained a part that had been renovated, (c) the renovated section had been reoccupied at the time of the strike, and (d) the conclusion (that the planners had deliberately targeted the renovated region so as to minimise the death toll) is directly in contradiction to other conclusions drawn on the same site that the attacks were designed to maximise the death toll. We have therefore examined your source critically, and found it to be seriously flawed. And your post here does two things: (a) simply parrots the source and its conclusions as accurately as you can manage, and (b) claims that you are the only original thinker on the forum!

Understand this, Alex: we know more about the subject matter than you do. We've seen all the conspiracist websites that you believe to be the sole source of reliable information, and gone beyond them to examine their sources; and we've found that on no occasion do those sources support the allegations on the websites.

Where I think you go wrong is in assuming that misinformation is the sole province of government, or possibly of corporations as well. One of the features of the Internet is that misinformation can now be disseminated just as easily be individuals. This means that the simple equation government information = lies, private information = truth, can't be relied on - not that it ever could. Jim Hoffman may be useless at engineering, but he's an able and practiced propagandist, and the truth movement has lerned well from him. 911review.com and its sister sites are polished, professionally presented propaganda outlets, and you've swallowed their hook, you're wriggling on the end of the line, and telling us about your independence of mind. The irony is almost tangible.

Dave

[Bananaman]

I don't force my "grasp on reality" on others. You do.

That's hysterical. Every time you post you do it. I can't believe you can write this stuff with a straight face.

Oh well, takes all sorts I suppose.

Bananaman.

[Alex Libman]

I think I'm done with this thread.

If any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably.


:scarper:

[sleahead]

I think I'm done with this thread.

Yes, I can see how Dave's last post might have triggered a flight response.

f any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably..

Classic truther denialism.

[GStan]

I think I'm done with this thread.

If any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably.


:scarper:

What evidence would convince you that 9/11 was perpetrated by fanatical Islamic terrorists?

You should read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability) before you answer.

[bje]

I think I'm done with this thread.

If any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably.

Why don't you join up with Jon Gold? He's got what you want.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I think I'm done with this thread.

If any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably.


I don't think anyone here had any real hope of getting through to you. I mean, you've abandoned friends and family that have no doubt tried to tell you the same thing in their own way. What could a bunch of people on the Internet possibly do to help you when you've shut your mind off to even the people you love?

[MRC_Hans]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.Think again. Who says I (for example) am too afraid? I don't even live in the US, and I certainly don't have much sympathy for the Bush administration. Has it occured to you that many have in fact considered the idea of an inside job, but rejected it?

Hans

[chillzero]

That's hysterical. Every time you post you do it. I can't believe you can write this stuff with a straight face.

Oh well, takes all sorts I suppose.

Bananaman.

This is really one of those threads where if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything. It's very disappointing that some of you would pass up the opportunity to learn a little about those you oppose, from someone prepared to be frank and polite. I did not split this out to have people attack any of our resident CTists. It would have gone straight to AAH otherwise.

Please keep it civil from here on, and perhaps some of you can have some questions answered. You never know, maybe somebody will get through to someone else in the course of this thread, and make them realise where they have been going wrong. Maybe not. However, there is no point in sniping. Let's have a civil, adult conversation here please.

[~enigma~]

It's very disappointing that some of you would pass up the opportunity to learn a little about those you oppose, from someone prepared to be frank and polite.

Considering he wrote


If any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably.

how is that polite and not just dismissing any opposing views with a handwave?

[PhantomWolf]

Nope, I don't buy it. I've seen Hogan's Heroes episodes that had more believable villains and fewer plot holes. Sorry.

And yet you're willing to "buy" the claims of proven fruadsters and lairs who have had 7 years to come up with a plausable alternative to the mainstream version and instead have spent all their efforts making up lies about what the mainstream version says (mostly cause they never bother reading it, or if they do, they fail to understand it) or fighting each other over whose ideas are nuttier. On top of that you already admit that there is no evidence of any alternative anyway.

So breaking this down. You would rather believe a bunch of crazy liars with no evidence and no idea of what happened than you would the Government. It seems to me that your entire belief in the US Government's involvement stems from the fact you really hate governments and because you hate them you deem them evil, and since they are evil they are capable of it, and since they say they didn't, but all evil lies, they must be lying, thus they did it.

Would this be about right?

[dudalb]

Nah. I don't like to whine. And being a Truther is a choice. It means, by definition, being willing to consider possibilities that most people seem to be too afraid to consider, ideas that shatter the little national bubbles of belief that most people dwell within. Truth is its own reward. Any friends, relatives, employers, or other relationships that stand in the way of that are worth losing.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1884048c0441c04bd0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13694)

[dudalb]

I think I'm done with this thread.

If any of you ever had the intention of making a relevant point, then you have failed miserably.


:scarper:


I guess he last suspension did not teach Alex much, did it?

[Magenta]

And, most importantly of all, abandon your "we're Americans, our poop don't stink" attitude. Your government finds it profitable to keep you on a much longer leash, but that's not what true freedom is.
Perhaps you should start out realising that at least 50% of the debunkers here are not from the US and that it's not our Government.
So breaking this down. You would rather believe a bunch of crazy liars with no evidence and no idea of what happened than you would the Government. It seems to me that your entire belief in the US Government's involvement stems from the fact you really hate governments and because you hate them you deem them evil, and since they are evil they are capable of it, and since they say they didn't, but all evil lies, they must be lying, thus they did it.


This is something that has always puzzled me about truthers' reasoning: they must believe that the US govt is competent enough to have carried out 9/11 and effected a colossal cover-up, right? In which case they actually have a higher regard for the USG (or any government, for that matter) than I do. :boggled:

[stilicho]

Yup. Everyone is a good little sheep by default. Rebellion is a deliberate act of conscience that is highly discouraged and is contrary to all your tribal instincts. You just want to run with the tribe. But your mind tells you that you can't.

Do you have kids, Alex? Practically the first word spoken is "no". Rebellion and individuality are natural and conformity is only developed later. The ability to reason is possibly natural but its maturity requires years of training.

And, as I've said a thousand times, it's not a matter of absolutes. You cannot "prove" that Hitler or Stalin or Big Brother or the U.S. government is evil. There is no codified legal footnote you can site [sic]. It is a highly personal and subjective decision.

We can imagine they are/were all evil, Alex. The questions aren't about good and evil, though. Can we prove that Stalin caused the deaths of millions of his own citizens during a programme of enforced "collectivisation"? Yes. Can we prove that Hitler caused the deaths of millions of Jews, "communists", Gypsies, and mentally challenged? Yes. Can we prove that the US government massacred about 3,000 people on SEP 11 2001? No.

[A W Smith]

Do you have kids, Alex? Practically the first word spoken is "no". Rebellion and individuality are natural and conformity is only developed later. The ability to reason is possibly natural but its maturity requires years of training..

hes 27, try his domain alexlibman.com on the way back machine. he had so much enthusiasm in 2001, 2002, it appears it was all downhill from there.

[PhantomWolf]

This is something that has always puzzled me about truthers' reasoning: they must believe that the US govt is competent enough to have carried out 9/11 and effected a colossal cover-up, right? In which case they actually have a higher regard for the USG (or any government, for that matter) than I do. :boggled:

This seems to be the real difference between debunker and CT.

The debunker believes that governments are generally made up of normal every day people who for the most part try to do their best for the peaple they represent and their country, but who are working in an extremely inefficent system often plauged with incompetence.

The CT believes that governments are generally made up with elitist evil power hunger people (or shape shifting reptilians) who for the most part are only out for themselves and so steal lie and cheat to draw more power and more money to themselves while keeping the commoner sheep down. That the systems they use are incredibly effective and efficent and use super technology that is never released publically to be able to pull off anything they want perfectly at the drop of a hat.

Then they wonder why we think their reality is wacko.

[Dave Rogers]

Can we prove that Hitler caused the deaths of millions of Jews, "communists", Gypsies, and mentally challenged? Yes

We should perhaps note at this point that Alex has stated his belief that there is a legitimate debate as to whether these deaths were caused by disease and famine due to the Allied blockade preventing essential supplies reaching Germany during WW2, although he seems blissfully unaware of the nature of this assertion (had it any shred of truth behind it) as a counter-example to his belief that all governments are basically parts of the same entity.

Dave

[chillzero]

Considering he wrote



how is that polite and not just dismissing any opposing views with a handwave?

He wrote that after a few rude responses and I don't blame him.
If the personal attacks continue this thread will be closed.

Again, I think it's a shame you (general) pass up an opportunity for learning (for either side) and choose instead to resort to mockery and meanness. Not really what this forum was set up for.

[Bananaman]

Chillzero, my rudeness stemmed from frustration. Yes, I admit I have a go at troofers from time to time, and get told off for it, but usually only the truly exasperating ones.

You say we could learn something in the above discussion. I'm sorry, but the rudeness was a direct result of the blindingly obvious realisation that Alex had nothing to say and was writing posts that would drive a saint mad. In those circumstances it is not childish to adopt a 'for God's sake...' attitude, it is the last resort of the sane.

Bananaman (who actually thinks chillzero is a good mod).

[chillzero]

Well, I understand the frustration felt, but we'll probably never know if some progress could have been made here. When one side opens up just a little it's even more frustrating to me to see that shot down completely in the cyncial assumption about how it will turn out.

[gumboot]

I take it you haven't exchanged discussions with Alex Libman before on the forum. You're all wasting your time if you think anything can be learned here.

[PhantomWolf]

I take it you haven't exchanged discussions with Alex Libman before on the forum. You're all wasting your time if you think anything can be learned here.

I've discovered this. I also have noted that I can add him to the ever growing list of Truthers that refuse to take up my challenge.

[Corsair 115]

You just don't get it...

There is no evidence!

Zilch!

Zip!

Zero!

Nada!

Nyet!

So what?Is it your assertion that, were prosecutors to put to a jury the question: "Did terrorists hihack and crash airliners into the WTC towers and the Pentagon?" they would be unable to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

And, turning the question around, if prosecutors were able to put to a jury the question: "Did the U.S. government, or agents for the U.S. government, plan and commit the acts of 9/11?" they would be able to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt?


Given your stated disrespect for evidence, I hope you never serve on a jury.