Judge Dismisses Headlight Flashing Citation

[Tony]

http://www.newschannel5.com/content/news/2637.asp ..full article


A Williamson County judge has dismissed a Franklin police citation against a man who warned other drivers of a speed trap.

He flashed his lights at them.

Harley “Bill” Walker says it cost him about a thousand dollars to appeal a City Court judge’s ruling against him.

County Judge Russ Heldman yesterday ruled Walker was right about the citation violating his free speech guarantees.



This is a victory for free speech!!

[a_unique_person]

Try this one then. A cop is watching a cross road with a stop sign to see if people are speeding through and not stopping. Should people not be penalised for flashing their headlights as a warning there is a cop there?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Try this one then. A cop is watching a cross road with a stop sign to see if people are speeding through and not stopping. Should people not be penalised for flashing their headlights as a warning there is a cop there?

They should not. What are they saying that is so wrong? There is a cop there that people who are over there can see in easily just not those who are approaching. It's essentially what a radar detector does. Now if you going to act like a radar jammer (device that is illegal in USA) and interfere with the police preventing them from stopping cars by physically obstructing them, then of course actions should be taken.

Tickets are a way of getting money out of people; yes I am breaking the law. But am I really committing such a crime going 30 in the 25 zone that require a police officer to be stationed there. Are there not more important things they could be doing?

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Try this one then. A cop is watching a cross road with a stop sign to see if people are speeding through and not stopping. Should people not be penalised for flashing their headlights as a warning there is a cop there?

People should not be penalised, but maybe the cop should be.

There is something wrong about a method of law enforcement where a cop sits in the shadows waiting for somebody to do something dangerous so he can fine them. Why not make his/her presence known and discourage the behaviour?

In your hypo the headlight flasher may cost the cop a citiation. However, this means the driver didn't run the sign. Contrast that to the situation where the "good citizen" doesn't flash his lights and the driver T-bones a family of 5.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Tickets are a way of getting money out of people; yes I am breaking the law. But am I really committing such a crime going 30 in the 25 zone that require a police officer to be stationed there. Are there not more important things they could be doing?

Whole departments of police are in existence for the purpose of ticketing drivers (highway patrols).

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Suddenly


People should not be penalised, but maybe the cop should be.

There is something wrong about a method of law enforcement where a cop sits in the shadows waiting for somebody to do something dangerous so he can fine them. Why not make his/her presence known and discourage the behaviour?

In your hypo the headlight flasher may cost the cop a citiation. However, this means the driver didn't run the sign. Contrast that to the situation where the "good citizen" doesn't flash his lights and the driver T-bones a family of 5.

Why do these hypothetical drivers always T-bone a family of five? Why don't they T-bone some 100 year old man who shouldn't have been driving anyway, but he was on his way to court to plea the state to euthanise him because of his terminal lung cancer? Can't these hypothetical drivers pick their targets a little better?

[sophia8]

What's wrong with somebody warning other drivers about a speed trap? After all, he's making them slow down, and that's the whole purpose of speed traps. Isn't it....? :confused:

[Tmy]

The insulting part is that he wasnt ticketed for warning people. He was ticketed for "flashing his lights". Of cousre that was totally pretextual. The cop was pissed that he warned people.

I bet that cop had never given out that ticket before. Thats ********that he does it now. A law that is not enforced equally is not a fair law.

Which reminds me, how come all these people hangin around the street corners with their election day candidate signs are not ticketed for loitering.

[a_unique_person]

You do of course, realise, that you have fallen for my diabolical trap. There was that recent case in the news of the Conservaative rep who drove through an intersection without giving way and killed a motor cycle rider. Breaking road laws, besides raising revenue, also takes lives.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Suddenly
There is something wrong about a method of law enforcement where a cop sits in the shadows waiting for somebody to do something dangerous so he can fine them. Why not make his/her presence known and discourage the behaviour?

Hypothetical:

There are 50 junctions on your journey and you know there are 3 cops covering traffic violations in the area. If you are caught speeding, you will lose your driving licence.

How many junctions will you risk speeding through, if you don't know in advance where the cops are compared to if you do?

If the cops make their presence known they only deter speeding in that specific location. By not making their presence known they may deter speeding at locations they are not in fact at.

However why a driver should be charged for indicating to another driver that he should slow down as his speed was excessive I don't know.

As for the "don't they have more important things to do" argument. If they generate more than their salary costs in fines, they are increasing the funds available to do other things, in addition to the accidents they deter/prevent by carrying out their role. I have no sympathy for someone who knows the law, breaks it and then whines about it.

[American]

I thought this would be about boobs.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by American
I thought this would be about boobs.

If only you knew how perceptive you are.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Agammamon


Whole departments of police are in existence for the purpose of ticketing drivers (highway patrols).

Which is fine and reasonable if the motive is safety rather than financial gain.

Take for example, Summersville, W.Va., (http://www.summersvillepolice.com/) as this link suggests, it is likely the second biggest "speed trap" in the United States. The author of the site I cited doesn't think much of the SPD, and the facts he mentions are largely correct.

I used to drive through there quite often, and I never considered it a "speed trap" in the sense that the police there don't hide. The "50 MPH" signs are many in number, topped with orange flags, and say "strictly enforced." Police sit in the open, on the median, running radar.

Therein lies the rub. The Summersville police actually enforce the posted limit, and strictly so. Motorists used to travelling 5 or ten MPH over the limit with lax enforcement get pulled over.

The reason why this all started had to do with nasty car accidents. Route 19 is the quickest north/south route through West Virginia, and Summersville and nearby Fayetteville are popular tourist destinations in themselves, for those that like whitewater or just gawking at the New River Gorge and the bridge spanning it. Route 19 is a 4 lane limited access road execpt when it goes through Summersville there are several traffic lights, and the area is pretty much the only place of shopping for most of the region, so there are not only people passing through, but many locals going to the store.

Since it is mostly rural express way, most long distance travellers are going between 70 and 90 MPH on Rt. 19. Encountering a traffic light while going 85 MPH can be tricky, as they aren't designed for that. People do not realize the sudden traffic pattern change, so they come tearing through at 85, see the yellow light, only manage to get down to 40 or so and then they T bone that poor family of 5 again.

So, Summersvlle puts in a 50 MPH limit and enforces it very strictly. They admit that. They say they would rather be a speed trap than a death trap, which is a bit of overdramatization, but goes to the point. The only trap is that other communities don't enforce limits strictly and they do.

They also get the occasional idiot cop that acts like Barney Fife, but welcome to West Virginia, where city police often make minimum wage and get no formal training. The only real scandal I knew of was the two cops that got busted for offering to allow female speeders to "work off," so to speak, a ticket.

Other than that it's just a numbers game. They write a staggering amount of tickets, but the lions share of that money goes elsewhere from city hall. I've never seen proof that they are just pulling people over for fun, as there are always people speeding there. It's actually quite wild driving through there. At the city limits, most people slow down to about 45 or so at the first sign, but there is always someone that comes through passing everybody, and 9 times out of 10 you later see that car pulled over. Most people pulled over are out of state, but that is largely because most locals know better than to even mess around there. Every time I say I'm headed to Summersville somebody warns me about the trap.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Suddenly
There is something wrong about a method of law enforcement where a cop sits in the shadows waiting for somebody to do something dangerous so he can fine them. Why not make his/her presence known and discourage the behaviour?

I actually asked a State Trooper this question, why they always hide out to catch speeders instead of being out in the open. His answer was, "Because if we did that, people would just stop speeding," to which I replied, "But isn't that what you want to happen?" He didn't have an answer for me.

The fact of the matter is, speed traps have almost nothing to do with safety and are really just a money-making scam for the state. Speed limits end up being set artificially low, because they know that most people are going to travel at the same speed regardless of what the sign says. So they catch more speeders; at the same time, the lower speed limit makes the area more dangerous, and so they show how dangerous the area is as a justification for pulling over speeders.

The government just runs the sweetest scams...

[Tmy]

Of course its a money maker. THats why tickets are so damn expensive.

I think in Mass its somthing like $50 for speeding and then $10 per mile per hr. over the limit. It doesnt take much to bring in a $200-300 ticket. Then theres the hit on insurance.

Has there ever been a study on how many police officers GET speeding tickets. Recently I saw a list of most ticketed people (by job). Doctors an Lawyers were high on the list.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Hypothetical:

There are 50 junctions on your journey and you know there are 3 cops covering traffic violations in the area. If you are caught speeding, you will lose your driving licence.

How many junctions will you risk speeding through, if you don't know in advance where the cops are compared to if you do?

I'm going to speed through zero of them because I don't want to T-bone that family of 5. There is a natural deterrence for unsafe acts. If I speed through and kill someone I'm likely looking at some jail time and a life of haunting memories.


If the cops make their presence known they only deter speeding in that specific location. By not making their presence known they may deter speeding at locations they are not in fact at.

Maybe, or they will, since they hide, cause some drivers to waste their attention looking for cops than looking at the road. The cat and mouse nature of the cops hiding and springing out makes driving seem like an "us against them" situation where the only negative effect of dangerous behaviour is getting caught. Thus, in a way the hiding makes people feel needlessly repressed and they rebel. Ever sit in an empty town at a little used intersection, waiting for a light to turn green even though you know darn well there is nobody coming in the other direction, just because a hiding cop might give you a ticket? That sort of thing breeds disrespect for the law in other circumstances.

Plus, it is a sign of tyranny. Do we want a country that if a traffic light sticks people will refuse to cross an intersection until the DMV shows up to change the bulb? Do we really want people to have a feeling of dread when they see a cop, because they think that cop will pull them over for some technical infraction with little or no connection to actual safety?

That's more where I'm coming from w/r/t "hiding in wait" tactics of police officers.

However why a driver should be charged for indicating to another driver that he should slow down as his speed was excessive I don't know. Only rational argument I can identify is that the warning messes up the whole conditioning type strategy you mention.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Suddenly
. . Which is fine and reasonable if the motive is safety rather than financial gain. . .

A sentiment which I fully agree with and the cops enforce limits the politicians set. As an example there is a four lane road that runs by the base where I'm at. The area isn't urban, nor is it quite rural, there are a few businessesseseses located along this road. The speed limit is 40. Did I mention the road is four lanes wide. To be totally correct I should say that the speed limit is 40 one way, and 45 the other.

[roger]

Originally posted by shanek
I actually asked a State Trooper this question, why they always hide out to catch speeders instead of being out in the open. His answer was, "Because if we did that, people would just stop speeding," to which I replied, "But isn't that what you want to happen?" He didn't have an answer for me.Well, around here, they have announced speed traps. As in you'll hear on the radio "there have been a lot of accidents on route 1, so for the next month the police will be setting speed traps south of....". The police cars are very prominately placed, as well.

There are plenty of the police "snipers" as well, though.

[roger]

Suddenly,

I drive through wv a lot on the weekends, and your story about Summerville rang very true to me. Though I don't get down that way much, there are several known speed trap towns in the area I travel. Again, everyone knows that in certain places if you are going faster than 25, you will get a ticket, period. I can see the town's point. They are basically sleepy little towns that get massive amounts of weekend traffic, largely people from DC trying to get to the hiking, climbing, fishing, skiing, etc that lies futher down the road. So the speeds get, well, excessive. Some towns decided not to put up with it, as far as I can tell.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You do of course, realise, that you have fallen for my diabolical trap. There was that recent case in the news of the Conservaative rep who drove through an intersection without giving way and killed a motor cycle rider. Breaking road laws, besides raising revenue, also takes lives.

If someone had flashed his lights, perhaps the scofflaw would have stopped. Perhaps light-flashers should "warn" other drivers even when there is no cop.

I dare to pollyannishly suggest that most police departments would prefer compliance with the law.

[shanek]

Originally posted by roger
Suddenly,

I drive through wv a lot on the weekends, and your story about Summerville rang very true to me. Though I don't get down that way much, there are several known speed trap towns in the area I travel. Again, everyone knows that in certain places if you are going faster than 25, you will get a ticket, period. I can see the town's point. They are basically sleepy little towns that get massive amounts of weekend traffic, largely people from DC trying to get to the hiking, climbing, fishing, skiing, etc that lies futher down the road. So the speeds get, well, excessive. Some towns decided not to put up with it, as far as I can tell.

But there are more effective means. Charlotte in many of its residential areas have speed ramps, where it's pretty much impossible to go over them at more than 25, or 35 or whatever speed depending on how they build the ramp, without wrecking your suspension. This is a much more effective tool for use against speeders, but, of course, doesn't generate revenue for the state.

[Tmy]

What did the guy do that was illeagle. I flash my lights all the time. To signal peopel to cross or signal cars to turn (even cop cars). They busted him cause they didnt like his speech.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You do of course, realise, that you have fallen for my diabolical trap. There was that recent case in the news of the Conservaative rep who drove through an intersection without giving way and killed a motor cycle rider. Breaking road laws, besides raising revenue, also takes lives.

And this has to do what with speed traps exactly?

What would a successfully hidden speed trap have done to deter this incident...or since it is unclear what your point is, what would an exposed speed trap have done to deter this?

(I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you believe the lethal accident was a bad thing.)

In the meantime the little piece of info you left out is that this is the third instance of wreckless driving on the part of said politician, and he was cited one other time at THAT EXACT SAME INTERSECTION in which the motorcyclist was killed.

So do you have some reason to believe speed traps would be an effective prophylactic in this case?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by shanek

I actually asked a State Trooper this question, why they always hide out to catch speeders instead of being out in the open. His answer was, "Because if we did that, people would just stop speeding," to which I replied, "But isn't that what you want to happen?" He didn't have an answer for me.


Just because the State trooper didn't have an answer, doesn't mean there wasn't an ansswer...

I can think of 2 reasons why the cops would 'hide' a speed trap:
- As someone pointed out before, it would also make people slow down everywhere, just in case the cops were hiding there
- The effect of getting a ticket may cause the person to drive better in the future; If you know there is a speed trap, you will slow down in the trap, but may speed up once things are safe again; if you get a speeding ticket, you may just decide to follow the speed limit everywhere. (Note: I don't have any references to show this is true; I do remember seeing a news article about it, but I can't remember where or when.)

Originally posted by shanek

The fact of the matter is, speed traps have almost nothing to do with safety and are really just a money-making scam for the state.

They may be a money making scam. The question is, do they have the desired effect of making people slow down?
Originally posted by shanek
Speed limits end up being set artificially low, because they know that most people are going to travel at the same speed regardless of what the sign says.

Do you have any proof of that (more than just anecdotes from drivers)?

[shanek]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
They may be a money making scam. The question is, do they have the desired effect of making people slow down?

I have yet to see any kind of scientific study showing that they do.

Do you have any proof of that (more than just anecdotes from drivers)?

Absolutely. Here's a page chock full of them:

http://www.motorists.org/issues/speed/index.html

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Why do these hypothetical drivers always T-bone a family of five? Why don't they T-bone some 100 year old man who shouldn't have been driving anyway, but he was on his way to court to plea the state to euthanise him because of his terminal lung cancer? Can't these hypothetical drivers pick their targets a little better?

Heh, now that's funny !

:dl: