Empty Roads...North Korea

[headscratcher4]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=North%20Korea&sll=36.013561,127.814941&sspn=14.201232,26.806641&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=FYyJZwIdTaaZBw&ll=39.025268,125.753063&spn=0.006668,0.013089&t=h&z=17

Google satilite map of downtown Pyongyang. Facinating both that we can view the streets of the city so closely...but more interesting...there is a complete absence of street life...no cars, seemingly no pedestrians. Were you to view this out of context...you might conclude that this is a dead or essentially abandoned city...

[Francesca R]

There appears to be a ball game in progress in this stadium with nobody watching (could be a military exercise . . . )

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=North+Korea&sll=36.013561,127.814941&sspn=14.201232,26.806641&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=FYyJZwIdTaaZBw&t=h&safe=active&ll=39.043765,125.757682&spn=0.003233,0.004807&z=18

[Smackety]

Kim must be on TV

but really, maybe they only drive when they actually need to... what a concept!

Or maybe this is a ghost town?

I don't know...

There are a few cars...they are all black or white. No Red, no Blue, no Yellow... how sad

[headscratcher4]

Maybe it is early morning...Maybe everyone is at work...but it is a city of over a million....you'd think you'd see people on the street....I suspect you would have in Peking even in the heart of the Cultural Revolution. This is a scary, very inhuman place.

[Travis]

Another strange thing is that they don't have enough electricity to run their stop lights so they have armies of traffic cops (young women mostly) directing traffic in the intersections to try and take care of what few cars there are.

[billydkid]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=North%20Korea&sll=36.013561,127.814941&sspn=14.201232,26.806641&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=FYyJZwIdTaaZBw&ll=39.025268,125.753063&spn=0.006668,0.013089&t=h&z=17

Google satilite map of downtown Pyongyang. Facinating both that we can view the streets of the city so closely...but more interesting...there is a complete absence of street life...no cars, seemingly no pedestrians. Were you to view this out of context...you might conclude that this is a dead or essentially abandoned city...
I saw a documentary about N. Korea a couple of years ago and it's like you say. It is a very creepy and weird place. For example, people with disabilities are not supposed to be seen. I can't imagine a more isolated or distorted country.

[shemp]

I don't know what time of year this was taken or which direction is North, but based on the length of the shadow of the Ryugyong Hotel, I'd guess this picture was taken early in the morning, so maybe most people haven't gone out yet.

[Francesca R]

That's probably it. Or they all just happened to be wearing pavement-coloured hats and drive reallyreally road-coloured cars.

[Skeptic Guy]

I think that we may be over-stating the resolution of google maps. I'm not sure that we really could see people that easy. There seem to be some people in the plaza in the lower left-hand portion of the image as well as some in the center portion by the buses and crossing a road just "above" that.

And like has been already mentioned, the shadows are long and it could be early in their day.

Certainly not anywhere the number of people you would see in other major cities, like Seoul and others but not completely deserted.

[Ivor the Engineer]

No point asking why nobody is out walking the dogs.

[Darth Rotor]

Francesca, it appears that there are some people playing tennis or a game on some green surface to the left of the stadium.

Also, over by the river on the right, looks like a small subdivision of ritzy houses.

Party member residences?

*makes notes in targeting log*

What?

[headscratcher4]

How early in the morning would it have to be...in a normal city of a million plus...not to see a great deal of activity? People going to market, trucks moving goods to market, early commuters, factory shifts letting out...I don't know what it is like where you live, but here in Washington, DC there is already a goodly amount of traffic...both vehicular and foot...downtown at sun-up. I'd say, given the last time I arrived in Paris was about 6:00am, that the drive in from DeGaul left me with the impression of a lot of activity. I also remember visiting Singapore and seeing lots of people on the street early. When do people go to get food? When do they commute? Early may explain some of it...but the look is really like a ghost town...

[Francesca R]

Also, over by the river on the right, looks like a small subdivision of Rizzi houses.Nah I don't own any houses in PY.

[Giggywig]

Well, the shadows may be long, but they are going directly up the image. If that's North, then it's close to noon during winter.

[Safe-Keeper]

The documentary Children of the Secret State (watch it on Google Video) is but one of the many works talking about how incredibly bizarre and alien North Korea is. I could go on and on. Their religion alone is worth a thousand books - it's at least as strange and probably more than half as elaborate as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It's worth looking into.

[WildCat]

I don't know what time of year this was taken or which direction is North, but based on the length of the shadow of the Ryugyong Hotel, I'd guess this picture was taken early in the morning, so maybe most people haven't gone out yet.
I don't think so. The shadows are going almost directly north, indicating a low sun in the southern sky. Also, the leaves on the trees have turned color in many spots. For these reasons I'd guess it was taken just before noon in mid to late fall.

[patchbunny]

I've seen photos in a book on North Korea. There's a traffic cop standing in the intersection, and no cars in sight. NK appears to be built like a big, industrious country, but it's just not really there.

[timhau]

How early in the morning would it have to be...in a normal city of a million plus...not to see a great deal of activity? People going to market, trucks moving goods to market

[North Korean reality]
What's 'market'? What are 'goods'?
[/North Korean reality]

[Sunstealer]

Maybe they are all having a siesta or perhaps there is a curfew. Maybe they've all been bussed somewhere for a rally/march.

[Smackety]

all million of them?

[Pardalis]

Everything about NK is depressing. :(

Sad that for a country whose head of state is the so-called "eternal sun of Juche", the people aren't allowed to see the light of day.

[Polaris]

The entire country must finally be in gulags.

[OlbarStein]

The difference between NK and SK or even China is shown by nighttime satellite pictures:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm

These streets were built when NK still had a functioning economy. Until the 70s it had a better economy than South Korea. The downfall came with the 1989 revolutions. Only China wants to trade with them now openly.

[rjh01]

I don't think so. The shadows are going almost directly north, indicating a low sun in the southern sky. Also, the leaves on the trees have turned color in many spots. For these reasons I'd guess it was taken just before noon in mid to late fall.

I am sure you are 100% right. It cannot be early morning or late evening.

The reason for the lack of traffic is the state of the economy. Maybe it was also on a weekend.

Edit. Also looked at other cities in the North. Same result. Looked at Soul. Plenty of cars.

Edit2. If anyone knows the height of any object it would easy to measure the length of the object's shadow and from that the angle of the sun. This would give the time of the year (two possible answers).

[headscratcher4]

[North Korean reality]
What's 'market'? What are 'goods'?
[/North Korean reality]


Understood...but Pyongyang is the "show piece" for high party officials...they have to have official state stores to sell food...it is the one place that food was seemingly available (if in limited quantities) even during the last major famine (as opposed to the minor on-going rolling famines that are everyday in NK). My point really was that whether going to state stores, jobs, mass demonstration practice, whatever...you'd still expect to see more than a handful of people on the street in the morning of any other earth city with a population over, say, 20,000.

[tyr_13]

The water doesn't even run up the high raises, neither do the elevators. People walk down thirty stories to get water from the river.

[I Ratant]

No point asking why nobody is out walking the dogs.
.
For SHAME, sir, for SHAME!
(LOL!)

[I Ratant]

Go down to Seoul... same shadows, same day?
Cars all over the place...
I'd say noon, as that's the best time for satellite imagery.
North is always up on Google maps unless you tilt the image.

[Safe-Keeper]

The water doesn't even run up the high raises, neither do the elevators. People walk down thirty stories to get water from the river.It's coming back to me now... this one travel report said that when visiting a Pyongyang hotel, he had running water only at certain times (I think it was a three-hour long period a day or something). Not that I'm not used to this, there's lots and lots of cabins in Norway without electricity or running water, my family's included, but a hotel in a million-people city?

[Smackety]

It is so wierd to think about millions of people being worked to death but somehow not being able to afford the basic necessities. What are they working so hard to make, Kimmie bobbleheads?

[B3LYP/CEP-31G(d)]

It's coming back to me now... this one travel report said that when visiting a Pyongyang hotel, he had running water only at certain times (I think it was a three-hour long period a day or something). Not that I'm not used to this, there's lots and lots of cabins in Norway without electricity or running water, my family's included, but a hotel in a million-people city?

This also happened to me at a guesthouse in Phnom Penh, except it was due to an empty water tank on the roof.

[screensnot]

Look at the lack of parking area around the stadium. The stadium looks like it'd hold a lot of people, but they'd all be coming by bus or on foot.

[Pardalis]

I don't know what time of year this was taken or which direction is North, but based on the length of the shadow of the Ryugyong Hotel, I'd guess this picture was taken early in the morning, so maybe most people haven't gone out yet.

Speaking of that hotel, why did they even built it (or tried to)? If there's nothing and nobody to see in NK, why have an hotel, or even a tourist industry at all?

Who goes to NK anyway?

[Morrigan]

It is so wierd to think about millions of people being worked to death but somehow not being able to afford the basic necessities. What are they working so hard to make, Kimmie bobbleheads?
Military supplies, no doubt.


Still wonder how a country can build an army without being able to feed its population. Even soldiers have to eat.

[gumboot]

I was just thinking how surreal it would be if one day the current regime collapsed and the world was allowed "back in" to North Korea again, and it turned out practically everyone had been killed - just a couple of hundred thousand people left or something weird.

[rjh01]

I doubt it would be that bad. They probably will find the majority of the people malnourished. Just the elite well fed. With little working infrastructure and services. I just wonder how long before cholera becomes a major problem.I mean that is what you get when sewage and water breaks down.

They will also find the average height of young people smaller than in other countries because they have not been fed properly. Very bad for their army where you need fit young people.

[WildCat]

Look at the lack of parking area around the stadium. The stadium looks like it'd hold a lot of people, but they'd all be coming by bus or on foot.
Kind of like... http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=60657&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.829089,78.75&ie=UTF8&ll=41.94812,-87.655401&spn=0.003024,0.004807&t=h&z=18

:D

[SezMe]

Maybe it is early morning...
See the shadow of the obelisk (sp?) in the lower right side of the photo. It suggests to me that it is late morning.

ETA: Oops, others beat me to it...but nice to see a concensus.

[SezMe]

Facinating both that we can view the streets of the city so closely...but more interesting...there is a complete absence of street life...no cars, seemingly no pedestrians.
Well, not quite. To the right there appear to be trucks or buses on the bridge.

What struck me was the very prominent oil streaks in the middle of the traffic lanes. Obviously, these roads have been used a lot by some really crappy cars/trucks/buses at some time in the past.

[gumboot]

Kind of like... http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=60657&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.829089,78.75&ie=UTF8&ll=41.94812,-87.655401&spn=0.003024,0.004807&t=h&z=18

:D



That's suspiciously similar to this. (http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=eden+park,+auckland,+new+zealand&mrt=loc&sll=-36.875141,174.744946&sspn=0.003081,0.009012&ie=UTF8&ll=-36.874973,174.745274&spn=0.003081,0.006974&t=h&z=18)

[WildCat]

That's suspiciously similar to this. (http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=eden+park,+auckland,+new+zealand&mrt=loc&sll=-36.875141,174.744946&sspn=0.003081,0.009012&ie=UTF8&ll=-36.874973,174.745274&spn=0.003081,0.006974&t=h&z=18)
But there's no alleys! Where do the fans pee after the game?


:boxedin:

[gumboot]

But there's no alleys! Where do the fans pee after the game?


:boxedin:



One of the following:

1) In an empty beer bottle
2) In the gutter on the main road
3) On some guys front lawn

[WildCat]

One of the following:

1) In an empty beer bottle
2) In the gutter on the main road
3) On some guys front lawn
Well you have to admit those lawns are nice and green, obviously very well fertilized!

[plumjam]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_18942493b898f379c4.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14508)

They all joined the navy.

[plumjam]

North Korea is a far more advanced society than any of our own. (In combating the old global warming.)http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_18942493b8b8dc719b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14509)

[Travis]

This eleven part travel blog is very interesting in its detailed description of life in North Korea: http://1stopkorea.com/nk-trip1.htm

[Comsat Angel]

Oh, C'MON, people! Haven't any of you read "World War Z"??? It's all explained in there, why you don't see any North Koreans in North Korea!

[Luciana]

From this site (http://www.japanvisitor.com/index.php?cID=379&pID=1858):


This is due to the almost complete absence of private cars, the banishment to the outskirts of factories and the nearly 200 parks and open spaces dotted throughout the city. It is said that with 58 square metres of green belt per citizen, Pyongyang has four times the U.N.-suggested amount of greenery per person.

Arriving from Beijing - as one almost invariably will, on a glorious Soviet Union-era Tuploev jet operated by the DPRK state airline Air Koryo - the contrast could not be sharper. People walk to and from work, ride the metro or bicycles, or squeeze onto one of the bulging trolley buses or trams that ply the streets from early morning until mid-evening. Crossing main thoroughfares and highways on foot is a breeze. Want to stand in the middle of the road to take a picture of the highway-straddling Monument to the Three Charters of National Reunification? No problem! No cars!

[Zep]

Having quietly observed the place since the 1970's, long before old Kim Il Sung popped his clogs, I think the terms "state of denial" and "circling the drain" apply fairly aptly to North Korea.

[Luciana]

And if the satelite images were taken at about the same time of the day and the year... then notice how agriculture in Seoul is well-developed, with greenhouses, irrigation systems, varied cultures, technology, etc. At the same time, notice how the fields in Pyongyang are barren, nearly all abandoned. I found some patches of green, but those were the exception. Very, very sad.

[rjh01]

From this site (http://www.japanvisitor.com/index.php?cID=379&pID=1858):

That does not make much sense. Walking to work only makes sense if you live a short distance form work. Public transport works best if you are moving people to and from a few places and they live in high density housing. Having lots of green areas makes cars attractive.

Having no air pollution is probably a sign of no industry at all.

And can anyone see any trolley buses or trams in the photos?

[Zep]

Seriously, you need to start thinking of North Korea in the same terms as Idi Amin's Uganda in the final stages. It's a failing mostly agrarian economy, dependent on its big neighbour next door to the south. And China is currently leaning on Kim Jong Il, the current despot warlord, very hard to join the modern world. Even their erstwhile buddy-buddies in Libya are leaving them behind, finding the waters of capitalism, foreign trade, and benign rule are not so bad after all.

The walls for Kim will fall in as soon as his people get to see what life is really like outside their propaganda-vision. That's not too far away - the tide of magnitizdat is on the rise there. Expect something like the Berlin wall collapse - very sudden, and with many swirling issues afterwards. And Kim and co. will try to flee with the country's loot Ceauşescu style. But hopefully with the same result.

[gtc]

I haven't checked the figures but I remember reading that it will be much more difficult for a reunited Korea than it was for reunited Germany.

North and South Korea are closer in population than East and West Germany were. Also, while South Korea isn't as well off as West Germany was; North Korea is a lot poorer than East Germany was.

Overall the task will be bigger and the cost per capita will be higher.

[rjh01]

Population
South Korea (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html): 48,379,392 (July 2008 est.)
North Korea (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html): 23,479,088 (July 2008 est.)

I am sure the two Germanys were not so equal in population.

North Korea, one of the world's most centrally directed and least open economies, faces chronic economic problems. Industrial capital stock is nearly beyond repair as a result of years of underinvestment and shortages of spare parts. Industrial and power output have declined in parallel from pre-1990 levels. Due in part to severe summer flooding followed by dry weather conditions in the fall of 2006, the nation suffered its 13th year of food shortages because of on-going systemic problems including a lack of arable land, collective farming practices, and persistent shortages of tractors and fuel. During the summer of 2007, severe flooding again occurred. Large-scale international food aid deliveries have allowed the people of North Korea to escape widespread starvation since famine threatened in 1995, but the population continues to suffer from prolonged malnutrition and poor living conditions.

I am sure that was nowhere near true for East Germany.

[gtc]

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/germany.htm (http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/germany.htm)

There were less than 17 million East Germans but more than 61 million West Germans.

I don't have the figures for income from prior to re-unification but the current combined GDP per capita accounting for purchasing power is $34,000 in Germany; $25,000 in South Korea and $1,700 in North Korea (according to the CIA World Fact book).

That is roughly $18,000 per capita for Korea as a whole.

[geni]

The walls for Kim will fall in as soon as his people get to see what life is really like outside their propaganda-vision. That's not too far away - the tide of magnitizdat is on the rise there. Expect something like the Berlin wall collapse - very sudden, and with many swirling issues afterwards. And Kim and co. will try to flee with the country's loot Ceauşescu style. But hopefully with the same result.

Except no one wants a sudden collapse. South korea doesn't want a massive flow of refugees. China doesn't want a boarder with a democratic and firmly pro western nation and the US and japan are worried about what happens to the nukes and the people who know how to build them in that scenario.

[Zep]

Except no one wants a sudden collapse. South korea doesn't want a massive flow of refugees. China doesn't want a boarder with a democratic and firmly pro western nation and the US and japan are worried about what happens to the nukes and the people who know how to build them in that scenario.I agree - the figures I've been seeing over the years indicates North Korea is now one of the world's worst basket cases, economically and socially. Should the "walls" come down too suddenly, it would constitute a sudden massive "sink" in the regional economy that would persist for some time. Imagine having to suddenly support over 20 million starving people appearing on your doorstep, for the next decade or so until they re-establish a whole nation again!

One of the biggest tasks will be re-education. The populace now are so accustomed to expecting the state to provide all, looking over their shoulders in fear constantly and speaking pro-Kim anti-US at all times that the very practices necessary to make their society operate properly are almost lost to them. And only the totally corrupt leaders have any contact with and know how to operate in a global environment.

[timhau]

Population
South Korea (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html): 48,379,392 (July 2008 est.)
North Korea (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html): 23,479,088 (July 2008 est.)

I am sure the two Germanys were not so equal in population.


No. What's more, about 40% of those 23.5 million North Koreans (http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/8786/icode/) are in urgent need of food assistance. East Germany was no El Dorado, but they never had problems feeding their citizens.

[headscratcher4]

The next "transition" will be the interesting one. Whether or not the "power" stays in Kim's family (son, wife, whoever) or whether the military re-asserts itself more forcefully. The analysis I've read suggest that the military is more "conservative" and is more hostile to any hint of opening up. Kim and his clan like control because they have the power but they also like the material trappings that are nearly unavailable to all but the top tier in NK (remember when Kim's son was detained in Japan under a false passport trying to take his kids to Disney world?). Anyway, the thinking is that the military because it holds so much power (essentially owning any marginally productive state industry), will fight any transition that loosens its grip. Besides the fact that there really isn't a Kim in waiting seemingly worthy of the last two...in terms of either survival ability or political ability. It could get very ugly...

[geni]

The next "transition" will be the interesting one. Whether or not the "power" stays in Kim's family (son, wife, whoever) or whether the military re-asserts itself more forcefully. The analysis I've read suggest that the military is more "conservative" and is more hostile to any hint of opening up. Kim and his clan like control because they have the power but they also like the material trappings that are nearly unavailable to all but the top tier in NK (remember when Kim's son was detained in Japan under a false passport trying to take his kids to Disney world?). Anyway, the thinking is that the military because it holds so much power (essentially owning any marginally productive state industry), will fight any transition that loosens its grip. Besides the fact that there really isn't a Kim in waiting seemingly worthy of the last two...in terms of either survival ability or political ability. It could get very ugly...

Kim himself didn't take over that cleanly. All the people near the top have a far stonger interest in the system not falling over than actualy being leader so quite posible that the system will indeed manage a smooth switchover of some type.

[Luciana]

That does not make much sense. Walking to work only makes sense if you live a short distance form work. Public transport works best if you are moving people to and from a few places and they live in high density housing. Having lots of green areas makes cars attractive.

Having no air pollution is probably a sign of no industry at all.

And can anyone see any trolley buses or trams in the photos?

It's weird, but that's what it is (http://www.nkeconwatch.com/2007/07/10/in-kims-north-korea-cars-are-scarce-symbols-of-power-wealth/), apparently:

Just across the border, South Korea is the world’s fifth-largest automotive manufacturer. To an ordinary North Korean, though, a private car is “pretty much what a private jet is to the ordinary American,” says Andrei Lankov, author of a new book “North of the DMZ: Essays on Daily Life in North Korea.”

He estimates there are only 20,000 to 25,000 passenger cars in the entire country, less than one per thousand people.

Discouraging private car ownership is not just a matter of ideology in a communist country, Lankov said in a phone interview from Seoul, where he teaches at Kookmin University. The passenger car, usually black and chauffeur-driven, “is the ultimate symbol of the prosperity of high officials,” he says. They keep the vehicles scarce “so everybody knows they are the boss.”

[I Ratant]

When I visited Hungary (still a communist state) in 1960. automobiles in Budapest tended to be taxis, or big-wig transportation.
The ordinary folk used public transportation, or walked!
There few to no bicycles, for instance.
All the train stations in Austria and Germany had row after row after row of parked bicycles. These were evident by their total absence at train stations in Hungary.

[Zep]

Kim himself didn't take over that cleanly. All the people near the top have a far stonger interest in the system not falling over than actualy being leader so quite posible that the system will indeed manage a smooth switchover of some type.That would be so only insofar as the underlying society is prepared to accept their rule. With North Korea being unable to feed itself now (a prospect that was on the cards from Kim Il Sung's time), other more powerful factors may come into play.

Considering no outside influences at all, there may be open rebellion of some sort Romania style, the populace may literally submit and starve to death, or they could simply flee cross the border into China in large numbers.

More likely outside influences will come to bear. Increased trade will carry caveats, perhaps forcing positive change. This will also (gradually) open North Korea to information from outside. And once that avalanche starts, who knows what will happen - such great instability is totally unpredictable.

[rjh01]

Reading the posts made in this thread since my last post makes me think the situation is similar to France just before the French revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution) 1789–1799
- Staving people
- Corrupt, wealthy, ruling elite
- No attempt to deal with issues
- Middle class knew the outside situation was better.
- High military spending.

[geni]

Reading the posts made in this thread since my last post makes me think the situation is similar to France just before the French revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution) 1789–1799
- Staving people
- Corrupt, wealthy, ruling elite
- No attempt to deal with issues
- Middle class knew the outside situation was better.
- High military spending.

North korea has no middle class of any significance and those that do exist are very aware that their status is dependent on the system not falling over.

[geni]

That would be so only insofar as the underlying society is prepared to accept their rule. With North Korea being unable to feed itself now (a prospect that was on the cards from Kim Il Sung's time), other more powerful factors may come into play.

Considering no outside influences at all, there may be open rebellion of some sort Romania style, the populace may literally submit and starve to death, or they could simply flee cross the border into China in large numbers.

More likely outside influences will come to bear. Increased trade will carry caveats, perhaps forcing positive change. This will also (gradually) open North Korea to information from outside. And once that avalanche starts, who knows what will happen - such great instability is totally unpredictable.

The problem is the north koreans have made it clear that they would rather see their population of north korea starve than open up. There has already been a North Korean famine in the mid to late 90s. So outside influence has no leverage in that respect.

As for the population there just isn't enough information flow among the general population for a revolution to take place.

[Zep]

The problem is the north koreans have made it clear that they would rather see their population of north korea starve than open up. There has already been a North Korean famine in the mid to late 90s. So outside influence has no leverage in that respect.

As for the population there just isn't enough information flow among the general population for a revolution to take place.There is SOME outside leverage, especially from China. China was "Big Brother" from the time of Korea (Russia less so), and has had some influence recently in forcing some change on Pyongyang. New "peace" negotiations, relief food deals, etc.

One needs to differentiate between what the NK propaganda machine says and what the ruling elite actually do (which I'm sure you appreciate!). The blatant two-faced attitude has been obvious from old Kim's dad's time. He wanted to be Stalin, don't you know!

Kim-baby the spoiled brat, and no doubt his cronies, even now have unlimited access to food, designer clothes, electronics, sattellite TV, cars, weapons, etc. - all the trappings of modern wealth and power. But they get all this from outside NK, which means they are definitely well aware of what's happening in the rest of the world. Rumours of Russian mafia involvement too have been about since the 1990's. It's a REAL basket case, top to bottom.

Since cronyism invariably spreads, it is likely there's plenty of people who know all this too - Chinese whispers! Plus there has been increased contact with "the West", through tourism and stuff like family visits from South Korea, etc. There have even been TV specials filmed in NK now. And through all of this, littlle bits of new info are being absorbed by the populace. When American tourists visit, they don't seem to eat any babies at all, even though Dear Leader guaranteed they would. No Westerners ever tried to torture vital state secrets out of lowly peasants, even though Dear Leader guaranteed they would. That sort of thing.

You also need to be aware of the Korean mind-set. On this I claim to be not the slightest bit expert, so I will take the advice of a native Korean any time. However I am aware from some discussion with Koreans that it is a very paternalistic society historically. One "reveres" the head of the household. The family sways to his command. Father knows best all the time. Etc. Sons try to venerate and obey father's wishes - at least try to keep him happy. Daughters even more so. Adventure and hard work are fine, but radical departure from societal norms is frowned upon and can cause family rifts. I see this even now in South Korea just as much.

To my mind, this tends to explain why NK is following the "Dear Leader" even into oblivion. He is continually promoted as the "head of the family", building on the above traditional values. Look at the propaganda used. I've been reading their English language stuff since the 1970's - it's been all "Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" stuff. So a strong hint of racism is involved in this as well, sadly.

[tomwaits]

There has already been a North Korean famine in the mid to late 90s.

You say it in the past tense as if the famine ever ended. It is still going on.

[luchog]

There was a thread on North Korea posted to the board some time ago, about a westerner (i don't remember where he was from, Canada maybe?) who managed to evade his official handlers enough to shoot some photos of things he wasn't supposed to see, and talk to some North Koreans "off the record".

His story was a bleak one. Huge stretches of brand new, modern buildings and parks, hotels, stadiums, and other facilities, all of them unused and empty; and many of them unfinished. Small plots of land crowded by run-down houses and old apartment buildings that house the working population of North Korea, surrounded and hidden by huge, often incomplete, modern apartment and office buildings that stand empty and unused. Recreational facilities are off-limits to ordinary citizens, execpt during special State-sponsored events staged to impress foreign governments and officials, during which they're bussed in and instructed on how to behave and what to say.

What was most interesting was the attitude of the people that he spoke to, and what they would say when the government representatives weren't around. They truly have little idea what life is like outside their country. All they know is what they hear from their government, and what little hearsay they manage to get from other sources. Despite the oppression and other problems they endure, they appear to be a remarkably resiliant and hopeful people.

[screensnot]

We could launch some balloons that drop leaflets on the country, informing it's citizens of the things their government is hiding.

[timhau]

We could launch some balloons that drop leaflets on the country, informing it's citizens of the things their government is hiding.

... thus making picking up leaflets an act of treason.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Simple innit? The Dear Leader has solved the problem of traffic congestion that afflicts backwards western capitalist-pig cities!

Why are you complaining?

[moon1969]

North Korea is supported by China and Russia. George W. Bush removed North Korea from the U.S. list of terrorist-sponsoring nations. It seems that all superpowers in the world support what happens in North Korea. North Korea is pure evil.

[Lonewulf]

North Korea is pure evil.

[quote=Guide from Iran]"Man, it's just rude to compare us to North Korea. We have internet. We have free speech. We're not just a bunch of ********!"