The evil that is WIND POWER!!!!

[Tmy]

Here in Mass. theres been alot of talk of putting wind turbines in areas off the Nantcuket, cape Cod , and other Coastal zones.

Youd think more popel would be into it. THe town of Hull (near Boston) has a widnmill that supposably saves the town $100,000 a year in electric payments. Its right next to the highschools ball fields. (wont someone think of the children!!!)

People really freakout over the idea. That the windmills will kill birds, or the "deafining" whooshing sound it makes, then theres the old property devalue of having a big old windmill around.

I think they are kinda cool looking. Much nicer than the cell phone towers that dot the landscape.

Is this just more NIMBY (not in my backyard) bitching?? Or are windmills the new version of the evil NukePower plants

[Flame]

People en mass, so ignorant!

Toni

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tmy
...

Is this just more NIMBY (not in my backyard) bitching?? Or are windmills the new version of the evil NukePower plants It's that windmill waste product that's so bad. Where are they going to store it? Spent wind is ... well ... stinky.

:p Heh heh. Scatology is way underrated.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Tmy

Is this just more NIMBY (not in my backyard) bitching??

Yep. As someone who likes to protect the environment, It really vexes me that after years of crying "Stop building power stations! Start using renewable energy instead!" environmentalists are now whinging about the visual impact of windmills.

Words fail. Really. There was a Welsh bloke on the news today complaining about a plan to put up a small wind farm on a hill near his house. Certainly it would be preferable to have another coal-fired power station instead - well, so long as it was built on somebody else's hill :mad:

[Upchurch]

Is it environmentalists who are upset about the visual impact of windmills?

Personally, I think the modern ones look incredible. I would so support their usage. It's a shame St. Louis doesn't have a steady stream of air to make it work. Places like Kansas would make a killing though, I imagine.

[diddidit]

We've got the very same ruckus going on in my town in western Michigan. We get decent breezes off Lake Michigan, and some truly enormous (300+ foot diameter) turbines have been proposed by a wind-power company. We've got the usual opponent cries of birds being killed, property values being killed, whooshing noise, and what happens if the rotor disintegrates.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10452839&BRD=2052&PAG=461&dept_id=381172&rfi=6

did

[jj]

Originally posted by richardm


Yep. As someone who likes to protect the environment, It really vexes me that after years of crying "Stop building power stations! Start using renewable energy instead!" environmentalists are now whinging about the visual impact of windmills.


Some environmentalists care about the environment, as evidenced for their strong support for nuclear power as opposed to, for instance, coal power.

Some obviously don't care about the environemnt, because they object to any kind of energy, when it comes around to actually building it and using it.

What they seem to be is anti-energy-supply. Why, really, I don't know.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Tmy
Is this just more NIMBY (not in my backyard) bitching?? I've heard that there is a term that is related to "NIMBY" called "BANANA": Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone. (Has anyone else heard this term bandied about?)

There are some large windmill installations in the northern midwest. I think they look neat, almost hypnotic.

[Drooper]

In Ireland people are learning about some adverse environmental side effects of windfarms.

One farm, being constructed in Galway has led to an entire mountain becoming destablised. a massive mudslide has ensued, engulfing houses, road, just about anything in its path.

The worst bit is that the sludge has (or way about to) spill into the local lake, killing off all the wildlife and ruining the water supply for the region.

Maybe a nuclear reactor would have been a safer environmental bet.

[Drooper]

Of course the most absurd thing about windfarms is that they don't replace much in the way of conventional electricity production, because you need to keep coal/gas/nuclear fired generators operating at the same time to make up the supply shortfall when the wind decides to stop blowing.

[roger]

Originally posted by Brown
There are some large windmill installations in the northern midwest. I think they look neat, almost hypnotic. Yes, and there are some big farms out in the CA desert, between Joshua Tree and Palm Springs. I love that drive because of the windmills. OTOH, it's a real bear keeping the car on the road with the winds they get there.

[hgc]

Originally posted by roger
Yes, and there are some big farms out in the CA desert, between Joshua Tree and Palm Springs. I love that drive because of the windmills. OTOH, it's a real bear keeping the car on the road with the winds they get there. I hear that! Get rid of the damn things so I can make that drive without the wind.;)

[Tony]

I always wondered this, but why dont they contruct wind generators on top of skyscrapers?

[Flame]

Originally posted by Drooper
In Ireland people are learning about some adverse environmental side effects of windfarms.

One farm, being constructed in Galway has led to an entire mountain becoming destablised. a massive mudslide has ensued, engulfing houses, road, just about anything in its path.

The worst bit is that the sludge has (or way about to) spill into the local lake, killing off all the wildlife and ruining the water supply for the region.

Maybe a nuclear reactor would have been a safer environmental bet.

Being that I live in Ireland I have heard plenty about the destruction and devastation that these mudslides have caused. Terrible.
Thing is it sounds more like planning errors were the cause than the windmills...

toni

[Mycroft]

There is that brand of environmentalism that seems to be against anything that supports human life, that finds fault with everything and refuses to compare any technology with its alternative.

[Terry]

Originally posted by roger
Yes, and there are some big farms out in the CA desert, between Joshua Tree and Palm Springs. I love that drive because of the windmills. OTOH, it's a real bear keeping the car on the road with the winds they get there.

Hey, I live there! I ride my bike next to the windmill farms every morning. There's a frontage road next to I-10 that I ride on. As for the windmills being loud, that doesn't appear to be the case. When it is very windy, you can just about hear them, but the wind itself is much louder.

--Terry.

[shuize]

I love the idea of wind generated energy. Solar power, too.

I've driven past the wind farms on I-10 about 100 times. When I was a kid we used to pass them on the way to visit relatives in Phoenix, Arizona.

Does anyone know which large corporations are working on these technologies? I'd really like to buy their stock. I'm pretty sure Kyocera is one of them. Does anyone else know of others?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by diddidit
We've got the very same ruckus going on in my town in western Michigan. We get decent breezes off Lake Michigan, and some truly enormous (300+ foot diameter) turbines have been proposed by a wind-power company. We've got the usual opponent cries of birds being killed, property values being killed, whooshing noise, and what happens if the rotor disintegrates.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10452839&BRD=2052&PAG=461&dept_id=381172&rfi=6

did

Birds also smack into autos and die on power lines and electric fences. Are they going to do away with those items, as well?

There are quite a few of these wind powered generators in Southern California. They are kind of cool looking. I-5 would be more boring than it already is without them. (It is a long straight stretch with almost nothing to look at and a few cattle farms to smell)

I understand the newer designs are more efficient (OK duh) than these old beasts.

[The Don]

When I last flew into Denmark, there seemed to be a large wond farm just off the coast near Copenhagen, it looked amazing.

I also like the way that the turbines have been spread throughout the landscape, makes each one seem a little less weird.

I know they're a small country with a relatively small population and low energy needs (efficent buidlings, few energy intensive industries, expensive energy (good way of encouraging less energy use)) but they really seem to have tackled this with enthusiasm

[richardm]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Is it environmentalists who are upset about the visual impact of windmills?


Yeah, they are, as well as the people who will live near them. I phrased that badly, originally. I'm sure that the environmentalists who were campaigning for a move to windmills are not the same ones who are campaigning against them ;)

[plindboe]

I just saw an interesting program on telly about these mills. Apparently 50% of all windmills in the world are of danish origin, which I found quite surprising.

The danish windmill industry has the following website, that contains information about everything you want to know about windmills;

http://www.windpower.org/

Take a look.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by The Don
When I last flew into Denmark, there seemed to be a large wond farm just off the coast near Copenhagen, it looked amazing.

I also like the way that the turbines have been spread throughout the landscape, makes each one seem a little less weird.

I know they're a small country with a relatively small population and low energy needs (efficent buidlings, few energy intensive industries, expensive energy (good way of encouraging less energy use)) but they really seem to have tackled this with enthusiasm


FYI, Danish windmills are the result of massive government subsidy. "If you pay them they will build it".

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Flame


Being that I live in Ireland I have heard plenty about the destruction and devastation that these mudslides have caused. Terrible.
Thing is it sounds more like planning errors were the cause than the windmills...

toni

Engineers have determined the cause of at least one to be cause by the construction.

Take one boggy hill.

Dig a number of enormous holes.

Wait while water ingresses from surrounding soil, until ground becomes unstable.

Run like hell.

[Tmy]

http://thumbb.image.altavista.com/image/273017223


Heres a picture of one. The anti-wind people can be quite annoying. Like Walter Cronkite. His beef is that it'd ruin the water views from his multi million dollar summer home. I feel for him, especially since Mass. has some of the highest electric costs in the country.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Drooper


Engineers have determined the cause of at least one to be cause by the construction.

Take one boggy hill.

Dig a number of enormous holes.

Wait while water ingresses from surrounding soil, until ground becomes unstable.

Run like hell.

Sure, but this is not a problem inherent in wind power, is it? It is just a problem with idiot surveyors and/or foolish engineers who thought that building a huge structure on a boggy hill was a good idea.

Compare to the problems caused by traditional power generators - problems which are inherent: pollution from coal/oil fired power stations, problems with spent fuel from nuclear reactors, and so on.

[Tricky]

As I understand, the bird-kill problem has been abated somewhat by putting more resistance on the turbines. This means that the blades turn more slowly, but still generate about the same amount of energy (with correct gearing). Birds can more easily see and dodge the slower-moving blades.

[roger]

Originally posted by Terry


Hey, I live there! I ride my bike next to the windmill farms every morning. There's a frontage road next to I-10 that I ride on. As for the windmills being loud, that doesn't appear to be the case. When it is very windy, you can just about hear them, but the wind itself is much louder.

--Terry.
Not a very good picture, but...

[Terry]

A lot of pictures of the I-10 windmill farms here:

http://www.stevesphotos.org/2003_08_31/index.htm

--Terry.

[DanishDynamite]

shuize:Does anyone know which large corporations are working on these technologies? I'd really like to buy their stock. I'm pretty sure Kyocera is one of them. Does anyone else know of others? Well, these two Danish companies Vestas (http://www.vestas.com/index.htm) and NEG Micon (http://www.neg-micon.dk/cm90.asp?d=1) each have 20% of the world market. TMK, they are top dogs in that business.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Drooper
In Ireland people are learning about some adverse environmental side effects of windfarms.

One farm, being constructed in Galway has led to an entire mountain becoming destablised. a massive mudslide has ensued, engulfing houses, road, just about anything in its path.

The worst bit is that the sludge has (or way about to) spill into the local lake, killing off all the wildlife and ruining the water supply for the region.

Maybe a nuclear reactor would have been a safer environmental bet.

What do you think would have happened if that had been a nuclear reactor on that mountain? Ka-BOOM!!! (to put it bluntly) Then by now you would be more concerned with evacuating Ireland than with preserving wildlife.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by plindboe
I just saw an interesting program on telly about these mills. Apparently 50% of all windmills in the world are of danish origin, which I found quite surprising.

The danish windmill industry has the following website, that contains information about everything you want to know about windmills;

http://www.windpower.org/

Take a look. Thanks, plindboe. Interesting reading.

Did you know that an average windwill, during its lifetime, produces 80 times the energy required to produce, transport, install and decommission it? With an average lifespan of 20 years, that means the energy is (on average) recouped within the first 3 months of operation.

The Don,

According to plindboe's link, Denmark is also currently building the world's largest offshore windmill park.

Furthermore, Denmark apparently has a "windmill strategy" which states that by the year 2030, 50% of Denmark's energy should come from windmills. Currently, 18% of our needs are met by windmills.

[DanishDynamite]

Drooper:FYI, Danish windmills are the result of massive government subsidy. "If you pay them they will build it". Could you expand on this? TMK there hasn't been any massive subsidizing of the windmill manufacturers themselves. There has, however, been a substantial subsidizing of the owners of windmills in the form of guaranteed higher prizes for the power delivered as opposed to market rates. This subsidy has recently been greatly reduced.

[plindboe]

Here in DK, about 20% of our energy comes from windmills. Of course there have been complaints and debate, in cases where they have been placed too close to people's property, but I have honestly never heard that bird argument before. Admittedly I don't know of any serious research into how many are killed, but my first impression is that this argument is complete and utter nonsense. Have there ever been conducted any serious research about bird killings?

[Drooper]

Originally posted by richardm


Sure, but this is not a problem inherent in wind power, is it? It is just a problem with idiot surveyors and/or foolish engineers who thought that building a huge structure on a boggy hill was a good idea.

Compare to the problems caused by traditional power generators - problems which are inherent: pollution from coal/oil fired power stations, problems with spent fuel from nuclear reactors, and so on.


My comment was meant a little facetiously.

But since you objected.

This example does show that the land coverage (scale and type) needed to site these farms represents a real and significant environmental problem in itself. Windmiills aren't are cuddly as people make out. Also add to the fact that if you build a windmill farm you can't decommision conventional powerplants, because when the wind stops blowing you need a back-up.

And finally, if you thing the Anthropogenic global Warming scare is unofunded onb current knowledge, as I do, conventional coal fired power stations are the best, most efficient form of power generation.

[DanishDynamite]

Chaos:What do you think would have happened if that had been a nuclear reactor on that mountain? Ka-BOOM!!! (to put it bluntly)Nuclear power rocks! :)

BTW, I read something else interesting on plindboe's link. Apparently, Western Europe's power needs could in theory be met several times over just using coastal off shore windmill farms. No further data was given, but it is thought provoking.

(Still, nuclear power rocks).

[Skeptic]

I don't think this is "enviormentalists" being hypocritical... it's just the nature of humans in general to be hypocritical. For example, everybody wants equality for all... until a black/ jewish /poor /immigrant/ whatever family moves in next door (or to the same school district). Everybody hates censorship... until that porn shop threathens to lower the property values. NIMBY-ism ("not in my back yard") is part of the human condition. I doubt the enviormentalists are any MORE hypocritical than others.

I'd like to say a good word for the hypocrites. As somebody once said, "Hypocracy is the tribute of vice to virtue". After all, without the hypocrites in the enviormental movement who want wind power in somebody else's back yard, nobody would be building the wind power turbines ANYWHERE in the first place. Besides, hypocracy often leads to virtue: in my experience, people who are "hypocritically" nice to (say) a mixed-race couple despite being against it are at least far more likely to meet and talk with them--and as time goes by, to lose the "theoretical" hatered in favor of genuine niceness (if that's a word.)

[Thumper]

There are some drawbacks against windmills. In La Mancha (ironically enough), the citizens are fighting to keep windmills away... and for good reason: they are heavily land-intensive.

Along the way they are clashing with small towns that don't want them. Although wind power does not burn fossil fuel, it does affect the environment by clearing woodland to build noisy and unsightly towers.

Source: Planet Ark. http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=22377&newsdate=29-Sep-2003

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by richardm
Yep. As someone who likes to protect the environment, It really vexes me that after years of crying "Stop building power stations! Start using renewable energy instead!" environmentalists are now whinging about the visual impact of windmills.

There are environmentalists, and there are what amount to anti-electricity woo-woos.

I'll leave the technical details of the advisability of wind power to others. Though doesn't Germany do a pretty good job of it?

It's not NIMBY, it's BANANA. Build Anything Nowhere Around Nothing Anywhere.