Former ISI Chief says "9-11 an inside job"

[parky76]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/ex-isi-chief-gul-exposes-911-inside-job.html

and what does this former head of Pakistan's intelligence service bring to the table?

what secret info and bombshells does he reveal??

“9/11 took place on American soil, not a single person has been caught inside America even though for doing such a job I think a huge amount of logistic support is required in the area where such an operation is carried out"

“It is quite amazing that for a very long period of time the air traffic control did not report this nor did the U.S. Air Force act in time,”

“The time that it took was enormous, it was 120 minutes, a very long time in which to act - was the U.S. Air Force sleeping and if it was sleeping which heads were rolled?”

“The air traffic control should have been re-hashed, it should have been turned inside out, but nothing of the sort happened"

“The height (of the plane) was 9,000 (feet) and it came within seconds to a height of 1,000 and then went straight into its target, this is not possible for a person who has been trained on a light aircraft to be able to do this"

---Amazing stuff huh folks?

:D

[AJM8125]

---Amazing stuff huh folks?:D

Great. Loose Change finally hit Pakistan. Now there's going to be a Truther Jihad Movement (Truthahadeen?).

[parky76]

yes. it does appear that this guy saw a certain pathetic Youtube video.

[jaydeehess]

This is the topic of Sizzler's thread "Fareed Zacharis...."

[parky76]

i think the topic over there is more along the lines of "9-11 truth is not dead...even though it is".

[MarkyX]

I love how he says it was complicated logistics.

What is so complicated about going into a plane, saying you have a bomb, hijack the plane and ramming it into buildings?

Anyone who thinks it requires "great logistics" to do this must have trouble breathing or using the bathroom.

[jaydeehess]

I love how he says it was complicated logistics.

What is so complicated about going into a plane, saying you have a bomb, hijack the plane and ramming it into buildings?

Anyone who thinks it requires "great logistics" to do this must have trouble breathing or using the bathroom.

The logistics of hijacking aircraft did not dissuade others in the past. the logistics of suicide missions didn't either, nor did the logistics of co-ordinated hijackings. All of these have been done before. 911 simply had all of them done at the same time.

Now would a miscoordination of the 4 hijackings have made any difference? Nope, even one plane getting to target would be a success. In fact delays were experienced yet it turned out.

The ISI bigot is out-to-lunch.

[Smackety]

as stupid as it is, it makes me wonder, if a plane was hijacked tomorrow, would we attempt to shoot it down?

[dtugg]

as stupid as it is, it makes me wonder, if a plane was hijacked tomorrow, would we attempt to shoot it down?

If the people flying the plane were unresponsive and flying towards a city, I think so. However, it is extremely unlikely that a plane in the US would be hijacked nowadays.

[parky76]

as stupid as it is, it makes me wonder, if a plane was hijacked tomorrow, would we attempt to shoot it down?

yes. it could fly into a nuclear plant and kill millions.

[Smackety]

If the people flying the plane were unresponsive and flying towards a city, I think so. However, it is extremely unlikely that a plane in the US would be hijacked nowadays.

Yes, I realize effort has gone into preventing hijacking in the first place. It also seems like we have no capability to do much of anything once one occurs, unles I am really out of the loop (I havent seen SAM's being set up anywhere or anything, you know?)

[parky76]

i think for the most part, any plane hijacked in the usa would be quickly recaptured by the passengers, or crashed...by the passengers. hijacking a US based plane really isnt a good strategy any more for terrorists.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I love how he says it was complicated logistics.

What is so complicated about going into a plane, saying you have a bomb, hijack the plane and ramming it into buildings?

Anyone who thinks it requires "great logistics" to do this must have trouble breathing or using the bathroom.

Truthers don't know what "great logistics" is. And that's the point. They think it sounds all sexy, so it must be right.

[UNLoVedRebel]

i think the topic over there is more along the lines of "9-11 truth is not dead...even though it is".

If 9/11 Truth isn't dead, then neither if phrenology.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=9%2F11+truth%2C+phrenology&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1

[Undesired Walrus]

I love how he says it was complicated logistics.

What is so complicated about going into a plane, saying you have a bomb, hijack the plane and ramming it into buildings?

Anyone who thinks it requires "great logistics" to do this must have trouble breathing or using the bathroom.

In general speaking terms, it does seem simple. However, in broader terms, it clearly wasn't. Their mission was made up of many more factors than the three you describe there, all which required the utmost patience, intelligence and competence.

As for the Chief:

“9/11 took place on American soil, not a single person has been caught inside America even though for doing such a job I think a huge amount of logistic support is required in the area where such an operation is carried out"


Zacarias Moussaoui?

[timhau]

Former ISI Chief says "9-11 an inside job".

Wow. I didn't realize that the Ice Skating Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Skating_Institute) was in on it.

This certainly gives me a fresh perspective on Blades of Glory.

[WildCat]

Former ISI Chief says "9-11 an inside job".

Wow. I didn't realize that the Ice Skating Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Skating_Institute) was in on it.

This certainly gives me a fresh perspective on Blades of Glory.
I know just the man to figure this all out!

2eDwECOdMCQ

[Senenmut]

did the u.s ever go after Lieutenant-General Mahmoud Ahmad, the leader of the isi that was in charge on 9-11. This guy was involved in the stealing of nuclear secrets via the israeli - turkish - pakistan spy ring sibel edmonds spoke out against that henry waxman want even let her talk about!! He also sent 100,000 through Saeed Sheikh (MI6) to atta who is alleged to have an Isreali accent from the voice recording on 911.
from article-
atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FD08Aa01.html
In early October 2001, Indian intelligence learned that Mahmoud had ordered flamboyant Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida.

A juicy direct connection was also established between Mahmoud and Republican Congressman Porter Gross and Democratic Senator Bob Graham. They were all in Washington together discussing Osama bin Laden over breakfast when the attacks of September 11, 2001, happened.

Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers. Nobody has bothered to check what really happened. The 9-11 Commission should pose very specific questions about it to FBI director Robert Mueller when he testifies this month

[WildCat]

did the u.s ever go after Lieutenant-General Mahmoud Ahmad, the leader of the isi that was in charge on 9-11. This guy was involved in the stealing of nuclear secrets via the israeli - turkish - pakistan spy ring sibel edmonds spoke out against that henry waxman want even let her talk about!! He also sent 100,000 through Saeed Sheikh (MI6) to atta who is alleged to have an Isreali accent from the voice recording on 911.
from article-
atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FD08Aa01.html
In early October 2001, Indian intelligence learned that Mahmoud had ordered flamboyant Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida.

A juicy direct connection was also established between Mahmoud and Republican Congressman Porter Gross and Democratic Senator Bob Graham. They were all in Washington together discussing Osama bin Laden over breakfast when the attacks of September 11, 2001, happened.

Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers. Nobody has bothered to check what really happened.
So you accept that 9/11 was carried out by al Qaeda, and think the ISI may have assisted?

The 9-11 Commission should pose very specific questions about it to FBI director Robert Mueller when he testifies this month
:confused:

[JamesB]

Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story:

Uhh, no they haven't.

[Senenmut]

Uhh, no they haven't.
sounds like they did.....
politics.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,5282550-107865,00.html

Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker, before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit.

[JamesB]

Your source is an OpEd in the Guardian? Could you provide something a little more substantial, please? What, you couldn't find a personal ad in Pravda instead?

[T.A.M.]

sounds like they did.....
politics.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,5282550-107865,00.html

Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker, before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit.

This is so 2006.

welcome to ignore.

TAM:)

[WildCat]

sounds like they did.....
politics.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,5282550-107865,00.html

Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker, before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit.
No, you "linked" (funny you don't know how to post a link yet) to an opinion piece by Michael Meacher, a conspiracy nutter.

Why don't you find a primary source for your assertion, instead of truther asshattery?

[T.A.M.]

No, you "linked" (funny you don't know how to post a link yet) to an opinion piece by Michael Meacher, a conspiracy nutter.

Why don't you find a primary source for your assertion, instead of truther asshattery?

because I am sure he is aware that the source is the "Times of India", and they got it from "anonymous" Indian Intelligence officials.

The WSJ and other articles simply reference, or in some cases even duplicate word for word, the Times of India article.

TAM:)

[WildCat]

It seems the Guardian was so astonished at the ignorance of Meacher it felt the need to print a rebuttal: Has Meacher completely lost the plot? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/09/september11.usa)

Welcome to 2003!

[JamesB]

Because if you do look this up in a news source, rather than an opinion piece, this is what you find (emphasis mine):

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04EFD71430F933A25754C0A9649C8B 63

One of the first signs of a large infusion of cash coming into the United States for use by the hijackers appears in bank records dating from 2000, when $100,000 was deposited in bank accounts controlled by some of the leading hijackers, including Mr. Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, Mr. Lormel said. The F.B.I. has traced that money back to the United Arab Emirates and believes that it was sent to the hijackers by Mustafa Ahmed al-Hisawi, who is accused of helping to manage Osama bin Laden's finances.

[JamesB]

Or directly from the Congressional tesimony of Mr. Lormel, if you prefer:

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/lormel021202.htm

INTERNATIONAL ACTIVITY

Three of the hijackers supplemented their financing by opening foreign checking accounts and credit card accounts at banks located in the UAE.

While in the U.S., two of the hijackers had deposits made on their behalf by unknown individuals.

Hijackers on all four flights purchased traveler's checks overseas and brought them to the U.S. These traveler's checks were partially deposited into their U.S. checking accounts.

Three of the hijackers (pilots/leaders) continued to maintain bank accounts in Germany after moving to the U.S.

Two of the hijackers (pilots/leaders) had credit cards issued by German banks and maintained those after moving to the U.S.

It is suspected that other unknown foreign accounts exist that were opened by the hijackers to further supplement the financing of the September 11, 2001, attacks.

One of the hijackers (pilot/leader) received substantial funding through wire transfers into his German bank account in 1998 and 1999 from one individual.

In 1999, this same hijacker opened an account in the UAE, giving power of attorney over the account to this same individual who had been wiring money to his German account.

More than $100, 000 was wired from the UAE account of the hijacker to the German account of the hijacker in a 15-month period.

[MikeW]

Lormel confirmed a $100,000 transfer. He said nothing about it coming from Omar Sheikh , or there being any ISI involvement. More here (http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Lormel).

[Senenmut]

It seems the Guardian was so astonished at the ignorance of Meacher it felt the need to print a rebuttal: Has Meacher completely lost the plot? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/09/september11.usa)

Welcome to 2003!


i read it. i didnt see anywhere that talked about the wire transfer??

[Senenmut]

Or directly from the Congressional tesimony of Mr. Lormel, if you prefer:

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/lormel021202.htm


i did not see anywhere that they asked specifically about the general or saeed sheik. all i saw was this:

Mrs. KELLY. Flight school cost $20,000. They had to get that
money somewhere.
Mr. LORMEL. Yes. Right on the front end, ma’am, they wired over
$100,000 in to Mr. Atta a year ago, and we are aware of that. And
we tracked that back to accounts in the UAE.
Mrs. KELLY. Just want to make one final statement. We know
that there is a problem with agencies sharing information, but if
you don’t trust each other to share information, how can we trust
you to protect us?

they didnt ask so why would he give them that intel.

[Senenmut]

It seems the Guardian was so astonished at the ignorance of Meacher it felt the need to print a rebuttal: Has Meacher completely lost the plot? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/09/september11.usa)

Welcome to 2003!


this guy is a member of parliament so dont you think he might be privy to intel that the average citizen doesnt have.

[JamesB]

i did not see anywhere that they asked specifically about the general or saeed sheik. all i saw was this:

Mrs. KELLY. Flight school cost $20,000. They had to get that
money somewhere.
Mr. LORMEL. Yes. Right on the front end, ma’am, they wired over
$100,000 in to Mr. Atta a year ago, and we are aware of that. And
we tracked that back to accounts in the UAE.
Mrs. KELLY. Just want to make one final statement. We know
that there is a problem with agencies sharing information, but if
you don’t trust each other to share information, how can we trust
you to protect us?

they didnt ask so why would he give them that intel.

Once again troofers do not understand the concept of burden of proof. It is your responsibility to show that you are right, not our responsibility to prove you wrong. You stated that Mr. Lormel from the FBI has confirmed this, now prove it, or admit that you were wrong. It is obvious Meecher is just confusing Lormel's testimony, confusing a question with a statement, as truthers often do.

Mr. LAFALCE. I have heard and read that much of al Qaeda’s funding has come from accounts belonging to charities and others and banks in the United Arab Emirates. And apparently Mohamed Atta received a wire transfer of $100,000 from a bank account in Pakistan under the control of one of bin Laden’s lieutenants. And so I am just curious about that...

[dtugg]

this guy is a member of parliament so dont you think he might be privy to intel that the average citizen doesnt have.

What exactly did he do in Parliament and when?

(I already know the answer)

[Senenmut]

jamesb

from your post:
Mr. LAFALCE. I have heard and read that much of al Qaeda’s funding has come from accounts belonging to charities and others and banks in the United Arab Emirates. And apparently Mohamed Atta received a wire transfer of $100,000 from a bank account in Pakistan under the control of one of bin Laden’s lieutenants. And so I am just curious about that...

that is from a bank account in pakistan not the UAE. there were multiple wire transfers.

[beachnut]

jamesb

from your post:
Mr. LAFALCE. I have heard and read that much of al Qaeda’s funding has come from accounts belonging to charities and others and banks in the United Arab Emirates. And apparently Mohamed Atta received a wire transfer of $100,000 from a bank account in Pakistan under the control of one of bin Laden’s lieutenants. And so I am just curious about that...

that is from a bank account in pakistan not the UAE. there were multiple wire transfers.

Does this mean you support the nut case ideas of the former chief of the ISI? I mean you are filling in more junk and trivial false stuff than the guy even brings up. His ideas are pure claptrap. If you are supporting him why do you bring up hearsay and unfounded reports?

Wow, 100,000 dollars for box cutters. Where did they get ripped off? 9/11, the support for 19 terrorist just doing nothing, and 4 pilot candidates is not a big flag before 9/11.

[JamesB]

Yes, and Lormel answered:

Mr. LORMEL. Yes. Right on the front end, ma’am, they wired over $100,000 in to Mr. Atta a year ago, and we are aware of that. And we tracked that back to accounts in the UAE.

Do you understand the difference between a question, and an answer? That is a serious question, because it seems beyond the comprehension of most truthers.

[Crazytimes]

So let me get this straight because a friend of mine is really pushing this $100,000 transfer. An article was written that was basically an opinion piece about the money being wired from an ISI agent to Atta was turned into fact by the truthers when in fact the money was traced back to the UAE and was never proven to be wired by Mahmood Ahmed ?

Am I lost or is that pretty much it ? Where can I find more info on this ?

Thanks in advance.

[JamesB]

That is correct, check out the link Mike posted above, he explains it all pretty well.

[metamars]

Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it,

Reference?

[Senenmut]

Reference?

article-
atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FD08Aa01.html
In early October 2001, Indian intelligence learned that Mahmoud had ordered flamboyant Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida.

A juicy direct connection was also established between Mahmoud and Republican Congressman Porter Gross and Democratic Senator Bob Graham. They were all in Washington together discussing Osama bin Laden over breakfast when the attacks of September 11, 2001, happened.

Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers. Nobody has bothered to check what really happened. The 9-11 Commission should pose very specific questions about it to FBI director Robert Mueller when he testifies this month.

[PhantomWolf]

So your evidence is another oped paper?

[Senenmut]

this is also interesting in the same asia times article.

On October 7, Mahmoud was demoted from the ISI. By that time, Washington obviously knew of the connection between Mahmoud, Saeed Sheikh and Mohamed Atta: the FBI knew it. The official version is that Mahmoud was sacrificed because he was too close to the Taliban - which, it is never enough to remind, are a cherished creature of the ISI. Two other ISI big shots, Lieutenant-General Mohammed Aziz Khan and Chief of General Staff Mohammed Yousouf, are also demoted along with Mahmoud. Saeed Sheikh was under orders to Khan.


it looks like saeed sheikh was under orders to khan. KSM and saeed sheikh were together when one of them beheaded daniel pearl who was looking into the AQ / ISI link. So who was saeed sheikh really reporting too?? KSM is AQ. And saeed sheikh took orders from the ISI. Intersting.....
from wiki-
and saeed sheikh is also alleged by Former Pakistani President, Pervez Musharraf, in his book In the Line of Fire stated that Sheikh was originally recruited by British intelligence agency, MI6, while studying at the London School of Economics. He alleges Omar Sheikh was sent to the Balkans by MI6 to engage in jihadi operations. Musharraf later went on to state, "At some point, he probably became a rogue or double agent".[7]

is it that big of a stretch to think the asian times is correct since india and pakistan are enemies and indian intel probably were trailing this guy.

[Senenmut]

So your evidence is another oped paper?

have you ever heard of operation mockingbird? one might have to get intel from sources outside the u.s.

[T.A.M.]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=107432

TAM:)

[metamars]

article-
atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FD08Aa01.html
In early October 2001, Indian intelligence learned that Mahmoud had ordered flamboyant Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida.

A juicy direct connection was also established between Mahmoud and Republican Congressman Porter Gross and Democratic Senator Bob Graham. They were all in Washington together discussing Osama bin Laden over breakfast when the attacks of September 11, 2001, happened.

Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers. Nobody has bothered to check what really happened. The 9-11 Commission should pose very specific questions about it to FBI director Robert Mueller when he testifies this month.

Thanks, but this is not what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, it's the nature of things that anonymous sources are used quite often in US media, and I don't see why things need be different in South Asia.

However, I still want to see the web page of Indian intelligence and the FBI that confirms the 100K wire, or see the interview or press release with the Indian intelligence and FBI spokepersons named (and hopefully, still accessible). Or some other forms of confirmation.

This is, of course, one of the most annoying things about 911 and other dubious atrocities where evidence exists of conspiracy. Information stays unconfirmed (making one wonder if it's disinformation or just a mistake), and evidence in government possession remains hidden there for decades, if not forever.

If it's an article of your faux-religion that unconfirmed reports can never be true (or considered as such), a "debunker" attitude becomes more reasonable. However, such reasonableness is only within the confines of a self-limited mindset, whose nature is quite unreasonable, given the track record for lying by governments, politicians, intelligence agencies, etc.

Kind of like being the sanest person in a nuthouse - somewhat comforting, but still not a good place to be....

Just because I don't belong to that particular nuthouse, though, doesn't mean I can't criticize reports as being unconfirmed. So, I'll ask again, but with different words: do you have references where the 100K ISI -> Atta wire is confirmed?

[JamesB]

Wow, this thread is setting some sort of new benchmark in the use of circular logic.

The Times of India reported that Indian Intelligence said the Pakistanis were involved.

Well how do we know the report is true?

Because the Times of India reported that Indian Intelligence said the Pakistanis were involved!

[Senenmut]

Thanks, but this is not what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, it's the nature of things that anonymous sources are used quite often in US media, and I don't see why things need be different in South Asia.

However, I still want to see the web page of Indian intelligence and the FBI that confirms the 100K wire, or see the interview or press release with the Indian intelligence and FBI spokepersons named (and hopefully, still accessible). Or some other forms of confirmation.

This is, of course, one of the most annoying things about 911 and other dubious atrocities where evidence exists of conspiracy. Information stays unconfirmed (making one wonder if it's disinformation or just a mistake), and evidence in government possession remains hidden there for decades, if not forever.

If it's an article of your faux-religion that unconfirmed reports can never be true (or considered as such), a "debunker" attitude becomes more reasonable. However, such reasonableness is only within the confines of a self-limited mindset, whose nature is quite unreasonable, given the track record for lying by governments, politicians, intelligence agencies, etc.

Kind of like being the sanest person in a nuthouse - somewhat comforting, but still not a good place to be....

Just because I don't belong to that particular nuthouse, though, doesn't mean I can't criticize reports as being unconfirmed. So, I'll ask again, but with different words: do you have references where the 100K ISI -> Atta wire is confirmed?

im with you on that. id suggest doing your own research. i did find this. its pretty interesting. from the gov papers, its not like they ask these people point blank who sent the money.

from a gov article-

I have two charts available today. The first describes the terrorists‘ use of international wire transfers, an example of a formal funding mechanism. The chart depicts a series of four wire transfers from the United Arab Emirates, wired to the terrorists‘ Florida bank accounts, via a bank in New York, during July, August and September 2000. The four wires were in amounts that would not normally raise suspicions. The funds, totaling approximately $110,000, were deposited in the Suntrust Bank accounts of Marwan Al-Shehhi, one of the terrorists who hijacked American Airlines Flight 175, and Mohamed Atta, one of the hijackers of American Airlines Flight 11.
http://financialservices.house.gov/media/pdf/021202mw.pdf

then we have this-

In 2002, French author Bernard-Henri Levy is presented evidence by government officials in New Delhi, India, that Saeed Sheikh makes repeated calls to ISI Director Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed during the summer of 2000. Later, Levy gets unofficial confirmation from sources in Washington regarding these calls that the information he was given in India is correct. He notes that someone in the United Arab Emirates using a variety of aliases sends Mohamed Atta slightly over $100,000 between June and September of this year (see June 29, 2000-September 18, 2000 and (July-August 2000)), and the timing of these phone calls and the money transfers may have been the source of news reports that Mahmood Ahmed ordered Saeed Sheikh to send $100,000 to Mohamed Atta (see October 7, 2001). However, he also notes that there is evidence of Sheikh sending Atta $100,000 in August 2001 (see Early August 2001), so the reports could refer to that, or both $100,000 transfers could involve Mahmood Ahmed, Saeed Sheikh, and Mohamed Atta. [Levy, 2003, pp. 320-324]
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?the_isi:_a_more_detailed_look=mahmood Ahmed&timeline=complete_911_timeline

[parky76]

Wow, this thread is setting some sort of new benchmark in the use of circular logic.

The Times of India reported that Indian Intelligence said the Pakistanis were involved.

Well how do we know the report is true?

Because the Times of India reported that Indian Intelligence said the Pakistanis were involved!

ill be honest. when it comes to implicating high pakistani officials in terrorism and war crimes...i dont trust the indians one freaking bit.

and when it comes to implications of high indian officials in terrorism and war crimes..i dont trust the pakistanis one freaking bit.

these two groups hate each other...and cannot be trusted to be honest about one another.

[Blender Head]

this guy is a member of parliament so dont you think he might be privy to intel that the average citizen doesnt have.

Does this 'member of parliament' actually share any information not 'privy' to us everyday Sheeple?

[parky76]

yes. when will this amazing guy release some of his amazing new info?

..yawn..

[T.A.M.]

ill be honest. when it comes to implicating high pakistani officials in terrorism and war crimes...i dont trust the indians one freaking bit.

and when it comes to implications of high indian officials in terrorism and war crimes..i dont trust the pakistanis one freaking bit.

these two groups hate each other...and cannot be trusted to be honest about one another.

Exactly. While I suspect, if we knew everything, there would be a pakistani connection to 9/11, I am not about to take a single article from an Indian Newspaper that quotes Indian Intelligence, on matters concerning pakistani involvement, as "the official word" on the matter.

TAM:)

[Senenmut]

Does this 'member of parliament' actually share any information not 'privy' to us everyday Sheeple?

this is the quote from the guardian we are talking about:

Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker, before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit.

now did dennis lormel confirm this to the british gov?? maybe its like robin cook who also worked for the british gov coming out and saying this:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."

to me this statement isnt totally disbelievabe because OBL had PROMIS and what did the spy agencies do with PROMIS software......SPY!!! im just throwing out a hypothesis but OBL and gang could have had a comp running PROMIS that had many mujahedeen fighters on it. The cia or mossad (who also had the software) could have stolen that file from obl.

[Blender Head]

this is the quote from the guardian we are talking about:

Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker, before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit.

now did dennis lormel confirm this to the british gov?? maybe its like robin cook who also worked for the british gov coming out and saying this:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."

to me this statement isnt totally disbelievabe because OBL had PROMIS and what did the spy agencies do with PROMIS software......SPY!!! im just throwing out a hypothesis but OBL and gang could have had a comp running PROMIS that had many mujahedeen fighters on it. The cia or mossad (who also had the software) could have stolen that file from obl.

A text version of this clip would not do it justice:

wKjxFJfcrcA

[Senenmut]

blenderhead-
sounds like u need to educate yourself about PROMIS software.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSLAW

from articles-
early 1999, the British journalist and author, Gordon Thomas, published an authorized history of the Israeli Mossad titled Gideon's Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad. The book quotes detailed admissions by the former long-time deputy-director of the Mossad about the partnership between Israeli and U.S. intelligence in selling to foreign intelligence agencies in excess of $500 million worth of licenses to a trojan horse version of Promis, in order to spy on them.[16]

In 2001, the Washington Times and Fox News each quoted federal law enforcement officials familiar with debriefing former FBI Agent Robert Hanssen as claiming that the convicted spy had stolen copies of a Promis-derivative for his Soviet KGB handlers.
They further alleged that the software was used within the FBI and other U.S. intelligence agencies to track internal intelligence, and was used by intelligence operatives to track international interbank transactions.[17] These reports further stated that Osama bin Laden later bought copies of the same Promis-derivative on the Russian black market (blat) for $2 million.[18] It was believed then that al Qaeda used the software to penetrate database systems to move funds throughout the banking system, and to evade detection by U.S. law enforcement

heres a vid to so u can understand more about PROMIS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlUwPxqjTUc

[Alt+F4]

Osama bin Laden later bought copies of the same Promis-derivative on the Russian black market (blat) for $2 million.[18] It was believed then that al Qaeda used the software to penetrate database systems to move funds throughout the banking system, and to evade detection by U.S. law enforcement

The Promis software was never used in the banking system, it couldn't be used to transfer funds. al Qaeda used regular old wire transfers and kept the amounts low specifically to avoid attention.

Anyway, where's the proof that bin Laden had an Internet connection in his cave?

[PhantomWolf]

maybe its like robin cook who also worked for the british gov coming out and saying this:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."

You know It'd be nice to have a $1 for every time someone metions Robin Cook, I'd have... well a few dollars by now.

Cook is out of his tree and truely out of his depth. Others have studied it a lot deeper then he ever did and his statment couldn't be more wrong.

Heck he claims that Al Qaeda means "The Database" when in fact it merely means "The Base" There is no "Data" in it.

Secondly, the CIA dealt directly with only a very few of mujahideen. Anyone that has ever studied the Afghani War knows this, the CIA was under very struct rules by the ISI that they weren't even to set foot in Afghanistan. They also had to operate under very strict rules from Congress meaning that most of the work they did in Afghanistan was done via intermediates, mainly the ISI.

Thirdly, the CIA fund none of the Fundamentalist groups directly, and never funded the Arab groups at all. The ISI decided who got the weapons and money they were getting from the CIA. Their way of selection included three things. 1) They had to show a willingness to fight and be in the action. 2) They had to be Aghani. 3) They had to be non-royalists. None of the Arab groups fit that bill, and they never got funding. the MAK (the group that OBL was involved in) was itself a source of funding and recruitment for the Arab fighters, if was basically doing the same job as the CIA, why would the ISI fund it? In fact most of the MAK's funding came from Rich Arabs, Muslim Charities in the Middle East and Internationally (including some in the US) and from the GID, Saudi Intelligence. The GID called OBL their man and had regular contact with him right up until 1990 when he went rouge on them. The CIA on the other hand have no record of OBL until 1993 when they first run into his organisation in Sudan.

Al Qaeda, unlike what Cook claims, was created by OBL in 1989 when he descided that he wanted to take the MAK into a more militarial role. The founder of the MAK, Abdullah Azzam, objected and so OBL took a group of men, including a number of egyptians, and formed Al Qaeda. Later, after Abdullah Azzam was murdere, he took control of MAK and merged the two groups together before returning to Saudi Arabia and starting his quest to bring the Middle East back under Islam Law, beginning in South Yemen. When they complained to the Saudi Government he was ordered out, and then after the Saudi's rejected his plan to remove Saddam from Kuwait in 1990, instead turning to the US lead Western Alliance, he turned in the Saudi Government causing them to basically expell him and then later remove his citizenship. It was after this that the US first ran across him in Sudan, though ironically he already thought they did know him because the Suadis had got him out of Suadi Arabia by telling him that the US had agents there looking to kill him. The US however didn't have a clue and didn't even know that he had an offical group until 1995 when, after OBL had been kicked out of Sudan by US request, an ex-member of Al Qaeda defected by walking into a US Embassy and spilling the entire story.

In the end, the tale of Cook and his beliefs and the real tale both have sobbering lessons. One is that unless you have done the research yourself get into the sources and found out the truth, don't go opening your mouth because as a wise man once said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." And secondly, just because Hollywood makes the CIA look like a perfect and supernaturally omniscient agency, doesn't mean they actually have a clue about what they are actually doing or what is really going on around them.

[parky76]

Exactly. While I suspect, if we knew everything, there would be a pakistani connection to 9/11, I am not about to take a single article from an Indian Newspaper that quotes Indian Intelligence, on matters concerning pakistani involvement, as "the official word" on the matter.

TAM:)

exactly. its like if the Jewish Press or the Jerusalem Post reported that Yassir Arafat was behind 9-11. I would be very suspect.

[R.Mackey]

I love this fascination with "software."

It's like watching two elderly gentlemen, out-of-touch with technology, trying to sound knowledgeable and top each other, despite never having seen a computer that didn't use vacuum tubes.

[soylent]

yes. it could fly into a nuclear plant and kill millions.

It could fly into a nuclear plant, but it would become aluminium confetti.

(p.s. Chernobyl killed 56 + potentially ~4000 people if the LNT hypothesis is true in low dose regimes)

[metamars]

this is the quote from the guardian we are talking about:

Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker, before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit.

now did dennis lormel confirm this to the british gov??

I don't know, but I don't particularly care. A straightforward reading of the quote means that Dennis Lormel of the FBI confirmed this to whoever wrote the Guardian article. The point of key interest, for me, is that this means that the FBI has confirmed it - I don't particularly care about the Guardian, either.

Has anybody attempted to re-confirm this from Dennis Hormel, since those bygone days of 2001? I wonder, too, if Dennis Hormel was interviewed by the 911 Commission.

[T.A.M.]

I don't know, but I don't particularly care. A straightforward reading of the quote means that Dennis Lormel of the FBI confirmed this to whoever wrote the Guardian article. The point of key interest, for me, is that this means that the FBI has confirmed it - I don't particularly care about the Guardian, either.

Has anybody attempted to re-confirm this from Dennis Hormel, since those bygone days of 2001? I wonder, too, if Dennis Hormel was interviewed by the 911 Commission.

As with almost all reports and commincations from those days, from various institutions, there were conflicting reports...

History Commons:

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=dennis_lormel_1


In July 2002, Dennis Lormel, chief of the FBI unit investigating the money behind the attacks, tells the New York Times they had 35 accounts, including 14 with the SunTrust Bank. [Washington Post, 10/7/2001; New York Times, 7/10/2002 Sources: Dennis Lormel] However, a year after the attacks, FBI Director Robert Mueller tells the 9/11 Congressional Inquiry, “In total, the hijackers opened 24 bank accounts at four different US banks.” [US Congress, 9/26/2002] Not only is Mueller’s assertion contradicted by Lormel’s previous statement, but it is also demonstrably false, as the hijackers had at least 25 US bank accounts with at least 6 different banks (SunTrust Bank, Hudson United Bank, Dime Savings Bank, First National Bank of Florida, Bank of America, and First Union National Bank) (see February 4, 2000, June 28-July 7, 2000, Early September 2000, May 1-July 18, 2001, and June 27-August 23, 2001).

TAM:)

[firecoins]

If the people flying the plane were unresponsive and flying towards a city, I think so. However, it is extremely unlikely that a plane in the US would be hijacked nowadays.
I doubt that entirely. Security has not improved that much. It would a good terror attack to hijack a plane and get it shot down.

Of course crew and passanger would be much more hip to the suicide mission aspect.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I doubt that entirely. Security has not improved that much. It would a good terror attack to hijack a plane and get it shot down.

Of course crew and passanger would be much more hip to the suicide mission aspect.

Good point. Can five men storm the cockpit and take control of the plane nowadays? What has improved now since 9/11? Maybe a stronger cockpit door and more passengers ready to put a fight.