Anyone else ever felt brainwashed? How about recovering from?

[AngelicAtheist333]

I don't really know how to explain this. But I'm going to try and be as discriptive and honest as possible, while still possibley making sense. lmao.

Okay. Now, onto the real subject. I was born and raised into a VERY religious Christian family. Just recently, after watching Richard Dawkin's 'Root of All Evil' on youtube. I came to the conclusion that: (a) if there is a god, he wouldn't abide by such tribal beliefs and (b) he wouldn't mind my skepticism and search for my knowledge, even if it means rejecting his existance.

I also came to the realize, that IF such a god existed, and by assuming the beforementioned (a & b), there would be no hell. It doesn't make any sense when you think about. I mean REALLY think about it. I can provide more info if you ask specifically. But I have a hard time typing down anything I believe or am learning about, unfortunately. All my beliefs are, as of now, officially up to debate.

I'm not sure of anything anymore. And I would very much like to learn everything I can about debating, spotting faulty logic, and "straw men?"??

I also would like to learn things that are scientifically proven facts. Nothing more.

I tried to look up to root word for "manipulation", and it was very hard to find the plain definition without other people sliding their opinion into it.

The only non-opinionated one I could find:

http://www.vocabulary-lesson-plans.com/increase-vocabulary.html

The disappointing one:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manipulation
I usually go here for any words I don't know or forget about. But it was very disappointing to see opinion influencing what should be strictly root definition. :[

Which makes me start thinking about how forcing religion on kids and wanting creationism in schools is so wrong... BUT that an entirely different subject altogether. ^-^;

Anywho. I'd appreciate pointers in order to further educate myself. :)

[cj.23]

HI AA, Dawkins has a forum, and I was just posting some thoughts on thsi over there. I'm a Christian writing in an theist community, but possibly some of this might help? Dunno, but worth a shot... The issue was "how many people have you converted to atheism". This was a very personal response, but still...

"Hey, to be brutally honest I like messing about with peoples belief systems and perceptions of reality too. Sure, a goodly number end up needing long term psychiatric intervention, but hey it's fun... -- ok, not quite satire. A decade ago I was like this - mainly in my agnostic period, when I really did tear every belief i held and everyone around me apart -- with quite devastating effects on a lot of people, as it happens, and more atheists than Christians simply because I knew far more atheists/agnostics than Christians. Religion was rarely my first priority though - self image, social beliefs, basic beliefs get examined first. And you know what? I was a complete c*nt back then. (Some would say I still am.)

I don't take responsibility for the ones who crashed and burned, because they chose to examine their own beliefs, and their response to it was their own response. I do feel a bit of guilt over those who lost jobs, ended up in hospital and messed up relationships, but hell, I can hardly have that much impact. Still, you would be amazed how fast anyone can fall apart given persistent enough questioning and help overcoming their "emotional defences". The problem with helping someone rip the masks off, one by one, is that you tend to forget they are wearing those masks for a bloody good reason.

So if you have never converted anyone to atheism - good for you. :) It may well ne that you would have destroyed someone in the process - or allowed them to destroy themselves, and to be honest they have to convert them - if you do it you are just no matter how hard you try leading them to your opinions - unless you yourself constantly rip in to all beliefs, especially your own, and in real life I think people are VERY VERY uncomfortable with those who critique and question constantly -- and I say that as only a man writing from a basement with no career prospects, and who seems to frighten everyone he meets, can.


I'll be your imagination,
Tear apart what you believe,
Make a mess of your conviction,
Take away my pride and leave,
Nothing, but the debris,
Cuts, two ways,

There can be a seriously dark side to attempting to deconstruct others beliefs, and as I may have occasionally hinted, I don't think it's pleasant. There is also a fairly dark side to Jerome, but as I accept it and keep an eye on it, I don't think i come over as a bully out to mess with peoples heads. Still, that is at least partly my action - guerrilla ontology, as I have said endless times, and no one has ever commented so I guess that is ok. Note I say my action: it's not my desire.

If you want to convert folks, convert by being you, and let them decide if that works for them. Never try to impose: the former method is more effective, and more dangerous. And never ask people is C true? if you want them to question C. Instead mention points A & B, and discuss the frameworks in which they can be interpreted till they realize C is a valid option. So long as you are correct, and dealing with true things, what people come to realize themselves is far more potent than what you tell them. Give them the methods and tools to question, stand back, and be ready to pick up the pieces if it goes horribly wrong - and it can do y'know. :(

Actually, for over twenty years people have suggested I should take up a single career option - Charismatic Cult leader. Problem is a) I'm not charismatic and b) I neither care not desire to tell others what to believe: that they question their beliefs is enough for me. Still maybe I should write an article on methods one might employ for it? :) I'm self-educated here, but have some ideas.
A couple more points: It is never fair to manipulate by lying, withholding data, or even to my mind using emotional appeals. Also., never set out with a specific agenda you want someone to end up with - rather encourage them to question and fine their own answers, and be willing to help the few who succumb to existential angst or a feeling of intellectual vertigo in that experience: if they are sincere, they will be dealing very basic programming.

So 1. Trying to convert people to X is to me bad, because it is one way, and manipulative.
Whereas 2. Helping someone question their beliefs, while you do the same, is legitimate, though I think at times dangerous. But we all do it naturally, so if with no agendas, it's useful.

Hence my A ---> C route. You offer options, you don't teach. The person makes their own mind up - and might refute C to you in the process.

I have thought about this stuff a bit. :("


I dunno AA, if that si at all helpful - it's as I say a very personal response, from an Atheist turned Agnostic turned Theist who is interested in beliefs and questioning them, and the moral issues that arise thereform. I'll see fi I can response more directly to your issues.
cj x

[AngelicAtheist333]

HI AA, Dawkins has a forum, and I was just posting some thoughts on thsi over there. I'm a Christian writing in an theist community, but possibly some of this might help? Dunno, but worth a shot... The issue was "how many people have you converted to atheism". This was a very personal response, but still...

"Hey, to be brutally honest I like messing about with peoples belief systems and perceptions of reality too. Sure, a goodly number end up needing long term psychiatric intervention, but hey it's fun... -- ok, not quite satire. A decade ago I was like this - mainly in my agnostic period, when I really did tear every belief i held and everyone around me apart -- with quite devastating effects on a lot of people, as it happens, and more atheists than Christians simply because I knew far more atheists/agnostics than Christians. Religion was rarely my first priority though - self image, social beliefs, basic beliefs get examined first. And you know what? I was a complete c*nt back then. (Some would say I still am.)

I don't take responsibility for the ones who crashed and burned, because they chose to examine their own beliefs, and their response to it was their own response. I do feel a bit of guilt over those who lost jobs, ended up in hospital and messed up relationships, but hell, I can hardly have that much impact. Still, you would be amazed how fast anyone can fall apart given persistent enough questioning and help overcoming their "emotional defences". The problem with helping someone rip the masks off, one by one, is that you tend to forget they are wearing those masks for a bloody good reason.

So if you have never converted anyone to atheism - good for you. :) It may well ne that you would have destroyed someone in the process - or allowed them to destroy themselves, and to be honest they have to convert them - if you do it you are just no matter how hard you try leading them to your opinions - unless you yourself constantly rip in to all beliefs, especially your own, and in real life I think people are VERY VERY uncomfortable with those who critique and question constantly -- and I say that as only a man writing from a basement with no career prospects, and who seems to frighten everyone he meets, can.



There can be a seriously dark side to attempting to deconstruct others beliefs, and as I may have occasionally hinted, I don't think it's pleasant. There is also a fairly dark side to Jerome, but as I accept it and keep an eye on it, I don't think i come over as a bully out to mess with peoples heads. Still, that is at least partly my action - guerrilla ontology, as I have said endless times, and no one has ever commented so I guess that is ok. Note I say my action: it's not my desire.

If you want to convert folks, convert by being you, and let them decide if that works for them. Never try to impose: the former method is more effective, and more dangerous. And never ask people is C true? if you want them to question C. Instead mention points A & B, and discuss the frameworks in which they can be interpreted till they realize C is a valid option. So long as you are correct, and dealing with true things, what people come to realize themselves is far more potent than what you tell them. Give them the methods and tools to question, stand back, and be ready to pick up the pieces if it goes horribly wrong - and it can do y'know. :(

Actually, for over twenty years people have suggested I should take up a single career option - Charismatic Cult leader. Problem is a) I'm not charismatic and b) I neither care not desire to tell others what to believe: that they question their beliefs is enough for me. Still maybe I should write an article on methods one might employ for it? :) I'm self-educated here, but have some ideas.
A couple more points: It is never fair to manipulate by lying, withholding data, or even to my mind using emotional appeals. Also., never set out with a specific agenda you want someone to end up with - rather encourage them to question and fine their own answers, and be willing to help the few who succumb to existential angst or a feeling of intellectual vertigo in that experience: if they are sincere, they will be dealing very basic programming.

So 1. Trying to convert people to X is to me bad, because it is one way, and manipulative.
Whereas 2. Helping someone question their beliefs, while you do the same, is legitimate, though I think at times dangerous. But we all do it naturally, so if with no agendas, it's useful.

Hence my A ---> C route. You offer options, you don't teach. The person makes their own mind up - and might refute C to you in the process.

I have thought about this stuff a bit. :("


I dunno AA, if that si at all helpful - it's as I say a very personal response, from an Atheist turned Agnostic turned Theist who is interested in beliefs and questioning them, and the moral issues that arise thereform. I'll see fi I can response more directly to your issues.
cj x

While I appreciate your insight, I had to read the entire thing twice to get a grasp of what your point was. And it seems as though you've drawn off course of my OP. I'm not trying to convert. I'm seeking answers and truth. And I've not found anything (of the prementioned or) satisfactory in Christianity as of yet. While Christianity, and religion in general, can be good for people... it's not for me.

When I watch tv sermons, when i go to church and listen to preacher, when I talk to Christians: I hear a reliant attitude. It's like AA (Alcoholics Anonymous), but centered around followers of Christ. I've gone to a local church on the island in which I'm currently presiding, they are all OBSESSED with Joyce Meyer. Its to the point of puking. They constantly quote her, and are closed minded. While I'm not saying all Christians are like this. I AM saying that these are my least favorite kinds of Christians. And PLEASE don't ask me to elaborate on that last sentence. It'll take forever and a day, and I still wouldn't be able to define it correctly. :(

[D'rok]

Truth is a slippery thing. Atheism isn't the path to truth - it's the disbelief in theistic truth claims that appear to be ridiculously untrue. If you are looking for clear cut answers, you may be in for some existential angst.

As far as learning to debate and spotting flaws in logic - that's critical thinking. And you can learn that here. Just dive in and participate! (Which you have already started to do, it seems). It will come naturally.

[Dancing David]

Wwelcome to the forum!
I don't really know how to explain this. But I'm going to try and be as discriptive and honest as possible, while still possibley making sense. lmao.

Okay. Now, onto the real subject. I was born and raised into a VERY religious Christian family. Just recently, after watching Richard Dawkin's 'Root of All Evil' on youtube. I came to the conclusion that: (a) if there is a god, he wouldn't abide by such tribal beliefs and (b) he wouldn't mind my skepticism and search for my knowledge, even if it means rejecting his existance.

Kind of my attitude as a gay cathoic once told me 'God made me the way I am, so they need to take it up with god.'.


I also came to the realize, that IF such a god existed, and by assuming the beforementioned (a & b), there would be no hell. It doesn't make any sense when you think about. I mean REALLY think about it. I can provide more info if you ask specifically. But I have a hard time typing down anything I believe or am learning about, unfortunately. All my beliefs are, as of now, officially up to debate.

And that is most likely where they will stay, it is a discomfort at first, but then freeing. Once you decide to act some way because you feel it is the right way to act. Responsible and free.


I'm not sure of anything anymore. And I would very much like to learn everything I can about debating, spotting faulty logic, and "straw men?"??

I also would like to learn things that are scientifically proven facts. Nothing more.

I tried to look up to root word for "manipulation", and it was very hard to find the plain definition without other people sliding their opinion into it.

fromhttp://www.bartleby.com/61/22/M0082200.html
manipulation

SYLLABICATION: ma·nip·u·la·tion
PRONUNCIATION: m-npy-lshn
NOUN: 1a. The act or practice of manipulating. b. The state of being manipulated. 2. Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.
ETYMOLOGY: French, from manipule, handful, as of grain, from Latin manipulus, sheaf, handful. See maniple.


The only non-opinionated one I could find:

http://www.vocabulary-lesson-plans.com/increase-vocabulary.html

The disappointing one:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manipulation
I usually go here for any words I don't know or forget about. But it was very disappointing to see opinion influencing what should be strictly root definition. :[

Which makes me start thinking about how forcing religion on kids and wanting creationism in schools is so wrong... BUT that an entirely different subject altogether. ^-^;

Anywho. I'd appreciate pointers in order to further educate myself. :)

More later.

[cj.23]

While I appreciate your insight, I had to read the entire thing twice to get a grasp of what your point was. And it seems as though you've drawn off course of my OP. I'm not trying to convert. I'm seeking answers and truth. And I've not found anything (of the prementioned or) satisfactory in Christianity as of yet. While Christianity, and religion in general, can be good for people... it's not for me.

Yeah sorry if it was not helpful. I can see you are not interested in imposing beliefs on others - it was the about manipulation bit of your OP which made me respond as I did, as I felt it was directly relative to how to manipulate belief systems.

Christianity is avast thing - you may find Catholicism f'rinstance (not my thing!) or Methodism or the Greek Orthodox tradition totally unrecognisable from your experience. My wife was briught up with Pat Robertson/Joyce Myers leaning parents - 700 Club types - and she finds my brand of Christianity completely unrecognisable as Christianity, and in fact regards me as an atheist. Oh well! You can of course explore all the world religions - and they are just as varied as Christianity in my experience. Still sounds like you are pretty happy as an atheist at the moment, by your username? Hey, just explore.

I'm not convinced we choose our religious beliefs or atheism -- I think they choose us, in that they represent how we see ultimate reality. In that sense i don't think they are lifestyle choices, though often they will just reflect our cultural environment, whether we act by accepting the religious mainstream, reacting sharply against it, or negotiaiting a personal part-way response. We all do it all the time, and I wish you all the best in quest for truth!


When I watch tv sermons, when i go to church and listen to preacher, when I talk to Christians: I hear a reliant attitude. It's like AA (Alcoholics Anonymous), but centered around followers of Christ. I've gone to a local church on the island in which I'm currently presiding, they are all OBSESSED with Joyce Meyer. Its to the point of puking. They constantly quote her, and are closed minded. While I'm not saying all Christians are like this. I AM saying that these are my least favorite kinds of Christians. And PLEASE don't ask me to elaborate on that last sentence. It'll take forever and a day, and I still wouldn't be able to define it correctly. :(


Well I watched Joyce Meyer out of interest after hearing my wife compalin about her - but actually, whicle my religious beliefs are a million miles from her, I can see why she has a message that appeals. She is a survivor of trauma, a strong successful woman, and promotes self help and resisting abuse. The irony of course is she does so in some kind of Evangelical clture which is deeply ambivalent at best about women asserting power and independence - but for many women in that culture, she must be a bit of a heroine. I must say despite my distatste for some forms of self help therapy, and her overall theology, I can't help but like Joyce in that she seems to be a deeply subversive influence in the Evangelical culture standing up for women. :) I think on the whole I'd prefer Mary Daly et al, but hell most people don't get that option I'm guessing in her cultural millieu.

Anyway, welcome, and hang around here and you will soon meet all kinds of opinions, and pick up some excellent criticval thinking skills. You might want to try www.richarddawkins.net if you want a supportive attheist community ot explore your ideas in as well.

Have fun, and never stop questioning! :)
cj x

[Marquis de Carabas]

If you feel brainwashed, you aren't. Or at least not well.

[Tiktaalik]

Welcome. I'd suggest that you browse TalkOrigins, too. I think it is at www.talkorigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org) , but I'm having trouble connecting there right now. That site has a lot of specific, scientific answers which will help you and others you may be talking with understand the observed nature of a lot of phenomenon otherwise attributed to a creative being.

A second place to browse is www.scienceblogs.org (http://www.scienceblogs.org). There are a ton of science-related blogs in all sorts of different topics. Getting a good foundation will help you spot fallacies and untruths and give you somewhere to direct people to find information and to go yourself when you've got specific questions.

[AngelicAtheist333]

Yeah sorry if it was not helpful. I can see you are not interested in imposing beliefs on others - it was the about manipulation bit of your OP which made me respond as I did, as I felt it was directly relative to how to manipulate belief systems.

Christianity is avast thing - you may find Catholicism f'rinstance (not my thing!) or Methodism or the Greek Orthodox tradition totally unrecognisable from your experience. My wife was briught up with Pat Robertson/Joyce Myers leaning parents - 700 Club types - and she finds my brand of Christianity completely unrecognisable as Christianity, and in fact regards me as an atheist. Oh well! You can of course explore all the world religions - and they are just as varied as Christianity in my experience. Still sounds like you are pretty happy as an atheist at the moment, by your username? Hey, just explore.

I'm not convinced we choose our religious beliefs or atheism -- I think they choose us, in that they represent how we see ultimate reality. In that sense i don't think they are lifestyle choices, though often they will just reflect our cultural environment, whether we act by accepting the religious mainstream, reacting sharply against it, or negotiaiting a personal part-way response. We all do it all the time, and I wish you all the best in quest for truth!




Well I watched Joyce Meyer out of interest after hearing my wife compalin about her - but actually, whicle my religious beliefs are a million miles from her, I can see why she has a message that appeals. She is a survivor of trauma, a strong successful woman, and promotes self help and resisting abuse. The irony of course is she does so in some kind of Evangelical clture which is deeply ambivalent at best about women asserting power and independence - but for many women in that culture, she must be a bit of a heroine. I must say despite my distatste for some forms of self help therapy, and her overall theology, I can't help but like Joyce in that she seems to be a deeply subversive influence in the Evangelical culture standing up for women. :) I think on the whole I'd prefer Mary Daly et al, but hell most people don't get that option I'm guessing in her cultural millieu.

Anyway, welcome, and hang around here and you will soon meet all kinds of opinions, and pick up some excellent criticval thinking skills. You might want to try www.richarddawkins.net if you want a supportive attheist community ot explore your ideas in as well.

Have fun, and never stop questioning! :)
cj x

Thank you for the reference. :)

[AngelicAtheist333]

Welcome. I'd suggest that you browse TalkOrigins, too. I think it is at www.talkorigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org) , but I'm having trouble connecting there right now. That site has a lot of specific, scientific answers which will help you and others you may be talking with understand the observed nature of a lot of phenomenon otherwise attributed to a creative being.

A second place to browse is www.scienceblogs.org (http://www.scienceblogs.org). There are a ton of science-related blogs in all sorts of different topics. Getting a good foundation will help you spot fallacies and untruths and give you somewhere to direct people to find information and to go yourself when you've got specific questions.

OMG! Thank you soooooo much! This is perfect! I bet I'll get a whole bunch of answers on them! :D

*hugtackle* Thank you~!

[Ixion]

I'm not sure of anything anymore. And I would very much like to learn everything I can about debating, spotting faulty logic, and "straw men?"??


For a brief overview of fallacies, check here:
Lessons in Fallacies (http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson5.html)

The main site, The Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com/contents.html), is also a plethora of knowledge.

[AngelicAtheist333]

If you feel brainwashed, you aren't. Or at least not well.

I feel brainwashed because I WAS brainwashed. The side effects are still present. I still can't completely let go of my fears for a greater being, even though in my mind it doesn't make sense. But no matter how much I argue with myself, the greater being ends up having the last word.

It's not like I want it to, though. I want my own opinion. I want to completely start over. I want to be a good person because its my choice, not because "God is watching(me)"

I want to discover the feeling of doing something right because it was something I believed in on a deeper level than "It's my job to spread around God's love" :( and "WWJD". I'm tired of that mind feeding, ear tickling, egotistical mindset. I always felt something was wrong about it.

Even as a little girl, I felt that if God was so great, if his understanding surpassed all human understanding, why the H*LL is there a hell? IT makes sense to everyone else. I've asked them. Not EVERYONE, but those I had surrounded myself growing up. They always said that it was where "sinners" and "bad people" go. When I asked about sinners, they replied: "Sinners are people who haven't accepted Christ and are bad people. Since God doesn't want those kind of people, he sends them to hell." was all they told me.

ANYWAYS! My point, my point is I want to be totally free of my religious beliefs. I want to discover what is right for me on my own. I want other's input, but I want it to be MY decision. Ya know?

I hope my response didn't come off as rude. I don't like offending people in any manner. :( And when I say the things I do. I'm being honest and sincere. D: ..... well, not all the time. But it's pretty obvious when I'm not sincere. If it's not obvious, then just ask. I'll answer honestly! :)

[AngelicAtheist333]

Thank you very much, Ixion! I really appreciate the links!!! :D
<3

[AngelicAtheist333]

Another thing I'd like to add.

I've been homeschooled my entire life. In short, I've never really had a life. I've never drank, smoked, done drugs, nothing! So.... just thought I'd add that. And I take no stand on the beforementioned. I'm neither for nor against drugs. It's debatable amongst people who know what they're talking about in that area, I do not. All I know is that my mom had such tight reigns on my sister that she rebelled tenfold, did drugs, and finally was released from my moms grasp. OF course, I didn't see it that way back then.

I thought my sister had turned her back on God and her family, I loved her more than myself, so it was hard to see her suffering. What I didn't know til recently, those were some of my sister's happiest memories. Release from bondage.

And now I've rambled.

But only because I don't want anyone to attack me by saying I have no right to say the things I do. I'm very inexperienced on online posting. So please be kind? :(

[Ron_Tomkins]

I feel brainwashed because I WAS brainwashed. The side effects are still present. I still can't completely let go of my fears for a greater being, even though in my mind it doesn't make sense. But no matter how much I argue with myself, the greater being ends up having the last word.

It's not like I want it to, though. I want my own opinion. I want to completely start over. I want to be a good person because its my choice, not because "God is watching(me)"

I want to discover the feeling of doing something right because it was something I believed in on a deeper level than "It's my job to spread around God's love" :( and "WWJD". I'm tired of that mind feeding, ear tickling, egotistical mindset. I always felt something was wrong about it.

Even as a little girl, I felt that if God was so great, if his understanding surpassed all human understanding, why the H*LL is there a hell? IT makes sense to everyone else. I've asked them. Not EVERYONE, but those I had surrounded myself growing up. They always said that it was where "sinners" and "bad people" go. When I asked about sinners, they replied: "Sinners are people who haven't accepted Christ and are bad people. Since God doesn't want those kind of people, he sends them to hell." was all they told me.

ANYWAYS! My point, my point is I want to be totally free of my religious beliefs. I want to discover what is right for me on my own. I want other's input, but I want it to be MY decision. Ya know?

I hope my response didn't come off as rude. I don't like offending people in any manner. :( And when I say the things I do. I'm being honest and sincere. D: ..... well, not all the time. But it's pretty obvious when I'm not sincere. If it's not obvious, then just ask. I'll answer honestly! :)

Well, actually, I thought the argument was that HELL was owned by the Devil which is God's counterpart and basically that if you reject God, you're delivering yourself to the Devil and that's where you end up.

I'm not sure if that is the argument, but I can see how many theists would defend themselves by throwing that argument.

If you've already started to doubt, then don't worry about not having the whole picture yet. It takes time. I think that a great deal of developing a critical mind towards theism is dedicating some time to actually study how the universe came into place from a scientific point of view. To try to imagine everything that is, without the explanation of a God; and especially, to realize that it doesn't loose its beauty and mystery. In fact, if anything, it is even more mysterious and marvelous.

I suggest you give mr Carl Sagan and mr Richard Dawkins a little read. Just go to the library and browse through their stuff and pick whatever attracts you.

[AngelicAtheist333]

Well, actually, I thought the argument was that HELL was owned by the Devil which is God's counterpart and basically that if you reject God, you're delivering yourself to the Devil and that's where you end up.

I'm not sure if that is the argument, but I can see how many theists would defend themselves by throwing that argument.

If you've already started to doubt, then don't worry about not having the whole picture yet. It takes time. I think that a great deal of developing a critical mind towards theism is dedicating some time to actually study how the universe came into place from a scientific point of view. To try to imagine everything that is, without the explanation of a God; and especially, to realize that it doesn't loose its beauty and mystery. In fact, if anything, it is even more mysterious and marvelous.

I suggest you give mr Carl Sagan and mr Richard Dawkins a little read. Just go to the library and browse through their stuff and pick whatever attracts you.

Thats the way I really feel too! I want to find beauty in things and discover things without the influence of religion. And my boyfriend is buying me a few books by Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins for me to study now. Thanks! :D

Granted, he might not know it yet. But, he will. :D
lol

[ExMinister]

I can relate to some extent; though I am coming from much more of a New Age background, I have been going through something similar. If you are a reader, as I am, here are a few books you might enjoy:

Carl Sagan: The Demon-Haunted World
Sam Harris: The End of Faith
Bertrand Russell: Why I Am Not a Christian

Two good all-purpose science books:

Bill Bryson: A Short History of Nearly Everything
Natalie Angier: The Canon

I've had 20 years of total immersion in the New Age (with a few years of Christianity in the mix). In the past year or so I've been going through a process that I think of as New Age "debriefing." In my spare time, when I'm not reading the above types of books these days, I am hanging out at this forum (a lot more than I like to admit!), a lot of the time just reading and learning, reevaluating and reconsidering. I am now addicted to wanting to know the "facts" about things, after so many years of anything but, and I am determined to learn to think critically and scientifically, to get to the point where I can spot pseudoscience and faulty reasoning. It's going to be a long process, and I've had so much to learn. If you are going through something similar, IMO, wherever you wind up in terms of religious beliefs in the end, you'll be better off for having gone through a process like this. At least if you choose to continue to believe in any particular religion, you will be aware of the big picture and much better informed.

Oh, I also read a few books by Lee Strobel (A Case for the Real Jesus was one of them), who argues on behalf of Christianity. His arguments did not ring in the least true for me but I learned a great deal from the experience and it might be helpful for you, too, as you are coming from a Christian background, in that he attempts to address some of the more common and controversial arguments against Christianity (such as the problem of evil, why good things happen to bad people, whether the books of the Bible have been all but lost in faulty translation, etc.). You'll find such arguments tackled here on the forum, too.

Good luck! :)

[Hokulele]

You might find this interview with Bart Ehrman interesting. Click the "Listen Now" link for the audio stream of the interview.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131

He is basically explaining how the issue of human suffering eventually led him away from a very fundamental view of Christianity to agnosticism.

[AngelicAtheist333]

I can relate to some extent; though I am coming from much more of a New Age background, I have been going through something similar. If you are a reader, as I am, here are a few books you might enjoy:

Carl Sagan: The Demon-Haunted World
Sam Harris: The End of Faith
Bertrand Russell: Why I Am Not a Christian

Two good all-purpose science books:

Bill Bryson: A Short History of Nearly Everything
Natalie Angier: The Canon

I've had 20 years of total immersion in the New Age (with a few years of Christianity in the mix). In the past year or so I've been going through a process that I think of as New Age "debriefing." In my spare time, when I'm not reading the above types of books these days, I am hanging out at this forum (a lot more than I like to admit!), a lot of the time just reading and learning, reevaluating and reconsidering. I am now addicted to wanting to know the "facts" about things, after so many years of anything but, and I am determined to learn to think critically and scientifically, to get to the point where I can spot pseudoscience and faulty reasoning. It's going to be a long process, and I've had so much to learn. If you are going through something similar, IMO, wherever you wind up in terms of religious beliefs in the end, you'll be better off for having gone through a process like this. At least if you choose to continue to believe in any particular religion, you will be aware of the big picture and much better informed.

Oh, I also read a few books by Lee Strobel (A Case for the Real Jesus was one of them), who argues on behalf of Christianity. His arguments did not ring in the least true for me but I learned a great deal from the experience and it might be helpful for you, too, as you are coming from a Christian background, in that he attempts to address some of the more common and controversial arguments against Christianity (such as the problem of evil, why good things happen to bad people, whether the books of the Bible have been all but lost in faulty translation, etc.). You'll find such arguments tackled here on the forum, too.

Good luck! :)

I do enjoy reading very much! Thank you so much for the suggestions. I'll be maki- I MEAN asking my boyfriend for those books. n.n

Thanks so much! I appreciate the help. <3

[AngelicAtheist333]

You might find this interview with Bart Ehrman interesting. Click the "Listen Now" link for the audio stream of the interview.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131

He is basically explaining how the issue of human suffering eventually led him away from a very fundamental view of Christianity to agnosticism.

Thank you! I'm listening to it right now. n.n
It's really hitting home on it. He is expressing a lot of the things I've questioned. :3

[Mr Clingford]

There is the Episcopal Church too, which is a very inclusive church, which has many people who do not believe in the god you don't either, but try to find a different God.
shipoffools.com has many different types of people who wrestle with the questions you do.

[ttch]

As for all the books that have been recommended, you don't actually have to buy them as most are available direct from your local library or indirectly via inter-library loan. After reading, buy only the ones you want to keep on your bookshelf.

[Dancing David]

Hi AngelicAtheist!

I spent most of my youth being the 'religous one' in a religously preoccupied family. We were members of the cult of chrsit scince. But i had all the benefits of an academic upbringing. the negative effects of the cs cult were not about the deial of science.

Nope theyw ere about the guilt trip that if you were sick or something bad happened to you then you weren't right with god.

very damaging, fortunately I got better.

"She turned me into a newt!"

I hope that you can find life affirming teachers who nuture you.

[Kopji]

Hi angelicatheist, welcome!

One of the first 'atheist' books I ever read was Dan Barker's "Losing Faith in Faith, from Preacher to Atheist". He was a minister at Melodyland near where I grew up in Southern California. He is very funny and rather irreverent. Another favorite is Why People Believe Weird Things' by Shermer.

If you REALLY like to read, something from the 1840's that is still in print is 'Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds' by Mackay. Not a book about religion, but you would instantly recognize the kind of thinking you are running from. A fun book.

Two misconceptions that I had 'coming from religion to atheism'. One weird idea was that philosophy was supposed to be sort of like the Bible, in that somehow it was all supposed to fit together in one grand kind of idea. "Ain't"
Another mistake was thinking that most atheists more or less like each other because they are atheists. :)

[KeyserSoze]

I know exactly what you are talking about OP. I had a bit of the same problem when I first started to separate myself from religion. Even though I finally managed to realize that religion isn't true, I still had these automatic feelings and thoughts (mind habits) that come about from being religious for so long. I did learn to change those habits over time. What helped me a lot personally was watching atheist videos on youtube. Once I spent some time learning more about the arguments and watching the debates with an open mind - becoming more obvious that religion doesn't stand a chance against critical thinking - I learned to change my feelings completely.

My favorite site is godisimaginary.com. There is a video section there; my favorite video is "How do we know that Christians are delusional?"

If you have some free time, try checking that out.

[Autolite]

I'm not sure of anything anymore. And I would very much like to learn everything I can about debating, spotting faulty logic, and "straw men?"??


Just be aware that theism vs. Atheism debates are not held on a level playing field. It's an "apples & oranges" type of scenario. Engage in such debates only for self amusement and do not expect to achieve any sort of success. Atheists have logic and reality on their side whereas theists by definition refuse to acknowledge, or are incapable of acknowledging, logic and reality. Have fun...

[Mr Clingford]

Atheists have logic and reality on their side whereas theists by definition refuse to acknowledge, or are incapable of acknowledging, logic and reality. Have fun...You have made awesome sweeping statements with more than a hint of fallacy - theists are incapable of acknowledging logic and reality!

[sleepy_lioness]

I was in much the same position as you, 12 years or so back. While I wasn't home-schooled, I was brought up by strict Christian fundamentalists and felt I missed out on normal growing up. I also used to try to convert everyone I met.

All I can say is - hang on in there. Your fears will recede. Think of them as bad habits if you like. You've been thinking that way for so long that it'll take a while for you to change. But I can promise you it does happen. One of the best ways I found of allaying my residual fears of hell, guilt over trying to 'convert' people, etc, was to understand the psychology of Christian fundamentalism.

I found the books by James Barr to be very helpful (called "Fundamentalism" and "Escaping Fundamentalism", IIRC). Barr isn't an atheist - he's a theology professor and moderate Christian - but what I found most useful was his discussion of fundamentalism as a perversion of Christianity and a misunderstanding of Christian history. It helped me enormously in arguing with Christians later on and also helped lay some of my fears to rest - he's very good on the psychology of fundamentalists.

Another decent essay is http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html

Good luck, and enjoy the trip! Feel free to PM me if you think it might help.

[Autolite]

You have made awesome sweeping statements with more than a hint of fallacy - theists are incapable of acknowledging logic and reality!

Perhaps I should have added something like "IMHO" or "based on my personal experiences and observations". I suppose that I could enter into a debate on the issue but my fun meter is currently pegged...:D

[interwaff]

De-programming is as silly as brainwashing. The goal should simply be to STOP WORRYING so much.

Cleansing yourself of God is as futile as penance for perceived crimes against Him.

Just freaking relax, and let things be. Jesus.

[Ron_Tomkins]

AngelicAtheist

I also suggest you take a peek at some of Daniel Dennett's conferences. They are inspiring and mind provoking and in them he allows you to get a clear picture of how amazingly complex the human mind is, how complex consciousness is and how all these things can indeed exist upon nothing more than a series of cells working aimlessly together.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fjbWr3ODbAo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fjbWr3ODbAo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


I also suggest this by another Neuroscientist who went through a "near death experience". Very inspiring and enlightening (and if this wasn't enough, moving)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UyyjU8fzEYU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UyyjU8fzEYU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Radrook]

Which makes me start thinking about how forcing religion on kids and wanting creationism in schools is so wrong...

Your question answers itself with the word "forcing" which conveys tyranny and injustice.

Let's suppose you are a Muslim. Would you appreciate being forced to eat pork? Whether a child participates in a religious ceremony or not should be left to parental judgment and should never be forced once the child reaches an age where he can logically weigh pros and cons and decide for himself. Atheist parents might not want their child forced to pray to a God they have taught their child doesn't exist. However, I see nothing wrong in allowing prayer for those who are willing or allowed to participate.

[Autolite]

However, I see nothing wrong in allowing prayer for those who are willing or allowed to participate.

Well, imagine if you will being FORCED to pay taxes which support a school that encouraged prayer and worship to "Crusty the Clown". Would you have any problem with that???

[Dancing David]

De-programming is as silly as brainwashing. The goal should simply be to STOP WORRYING so much.

Cleansing yourself of God is as futile as penance for perceived crimes against Him.

Just freaking relax, and let things be. Jesus.

About as meaningful as your other inane posts, I suppose somebody actualy taklked about deprogramming?

Or is this like homsexuals being criminals, and something you just made up?

[Radrook]

Well, imagine if you will being FORCED to pay taxes which support a school that encouraged prayer and worship to "Crusty the Clown". Would you have any problem with that???

Well, there are a lot of things I pay taxes for that I disapprove of. Billions of tax dollars for Wars I consider immoral. Billions of tax dollars to bail out irresponsible companies. Billions of tax dollars given as foreign aid to countries able to help themselves or to enemies who hate our guts. Tax dollars given to support anti ID curriculums. So I really don't see why I should take umbrage with tax dollars being apportioned to schools which simply allow those who wish to pray to pray. If I did then I would need to take serious umbrage with all the other institutions using my tax dollars in a manner I don't approve of. Yet I don't see anyone doing so. In fact, everyone seems quite content to have their tax dollars used by the government in whatever way the government sees fit. Sure, there are occasional complaints. But they
usually get nowhere and are rather tepid and not the kind of vehement complaints atheists have against prayers.

BTW
Why don't atheists complain about prayers in the army? The military does employ chaplains of diverse denominations using your tax money. Care to explain?

[Macoy]

Well, there are a lot of things I pay taxes for that I disapprove of.

BTW
Why don't atheists complain about prayers in the army? The military does employ chaplains of diverse denominations using your tax money. Care to explain?

Radrook, you must think more deeply, in that you allow an "authority" to control your mind.

[Dancing David]

BTW
Why don't atheists complain about prayers in the army? The military does employ chaplains of diverse denominations using your tax money. Care to explain?


They do, just very quietly (in some cases), that is why group prayer has to be optional.

It is also why a pagan pentagram was finaly allowed on a military grave marker.

It is also why the Air Force is in danger of having the Academy totaly cleaned out if religious poltics continues there.

[Autolite]

Why don't atheists complain about prayers in the army? The military does employ chaplains of diverse denominations using your tax money. Care to explain?

http://www.maaf.info/

Actually, as already mentioned, some Atheists do complain. I am a little surprised that you were not aware of that. I would suspect that many Atheists outside of the military might keep a low profile reference their thoughts on military Chaplains out of respect for the service members who need the crutch that religions provide (in order to deal with many of the stresses particular to military life). I suppose it's much in the same way that many Atheists might be reluctant to parade around with "There's No God" posters at religious funeral services.

However, being ex-military I can assure you that I did indeed have a very big problem with Chaplains being on the government payroll. I recall once having been ordered to attend a Chaplain's interview as part of a pre-deployment screening. I initially expressed my indignation and reluctance, but I was given a legal order and I had no other option but to attend. (The military can be rather adamant about obeying orders and such...go figure).

As it turned out, there was no mention of religion, faith or god as the interview was more of a psychological screening intended to weed out anyone who might have financial, marital or familial problems that could impair their performance while away. In this respect I will concede that the Chaplain was earning his pay as I will assume that he had been properly trained to effectively deal with any of the problems his questions were trying to expose.

In any case, I've found that over the years that military Chaplains are becoming more aware of the Atheist presence in the forces. They will now "ask" members to bow their heads in prayer rather than "order" them to during a parade. Attending members who do not comply are not reprimanded, at least not on the parades that I've attended.

Military Chaplains today seem to be more of guidance counselors for grown-ups. They will still cater, of course, to the spiritual needs of members but they will not play the religion angle unless they sense that that is what the member wants to hear. They help resolve marital or familial discord during times of stressful deployments and they will sling the religious B.S. if that's what they think they need to do to help fix the problem. After all, slinging B.S. is hardly a tactic that the military is completely unfamiliar with now is it??? :rolleyes:

[Autolite]

In my previous post the "B.S." refers to "blatant silliness". I just wanted to be clear on that...:D

[Radrook]

http://www.maaf.info/

Actually, as already mentioned, some Atheists do complain. I am a little surprised that you were not aware of that.

I was referring to the intensity of the complaints.


I would suspect that many Atheists outside of the military might keep a low profile reference their thoughts on military Chaplains out of respect for the service members who need the crutch that religions provide (in order to deal with many of the stresses particular to military life). I suppose it's much in the same way that many Atheists might be reluctant to parade around with "There's No God" posters at religious funeral services.

It can be argued that parents feel that their children can cope with the stresses of life better after having prayed. So out of respect for that....

However, being ex-military I can assure you that I did indeed have a very big problem with Chaplains being on the government payroll. I recall once having been ordered to attend a Chaplain's interview as part of a pre-deployment screening. I initially expressed my indignation and reluctance, but I was given a legal order and I had no other option but to attend. (The military can be rather adamant about obeying orders and such...go figure).

You might have a big problem but generally speaking it isn't even an issue within atheist circles. Prayer in school, on the other hand, is.

As it turned out, there was no mention of religion, faith or god as the interview was more of a psychological screening intended to weed out anyone who might have financial, marital or familial problems that could impair their performance while away. In this respect I will concede that the Chaplain was earning his pay as I will assume that he had been properly trained to effectively deal with any of the problems his questions were trying to expose.

During the two world wars we had chaplains praying before a battle and even blessing the weapons. Not a whimper heard from atheists though.

In any case, I've found that over the years that military Chaplains are becoming more aware of the Atheist presence in the forces. They will now "ask" members to bow their heads in prayer rather than "order" them to during a parade. Attending members who do not comply are not reprimanded, at least not on the parades that I've attended.

But our tax money is STILLL being used to provide an emotional outlet for religionist soldiers and Atheists generally don't have a problem with it.

Military Chaplains today seem to be more of guidance counselors for grown-ups.
Chaplains main job is as guidance counselors? Teachers' main job is to teach.


They will still cater, of course, to the spiritual needs of members but they will not play the religion angle unless they sense that that is what the member wants to hear.

Teachers will cater to those who want to hear and pray for the sake of their spiritual needs.

They help resolve marital or familial discord during times of stressful deployments and they will sling the religious B.S. if that's what they think they need to do to help fix the problem. After all, slinging B.S. is hardly a tactic that the military is completely unfamiliar with now is it??? :rolleyes:

Slinging of HS isn't the issue. The issue atheist contentment with the slinging there but vehement discontentment with the slinging here. Which is blatant unconvincing inconsistency which smacks of bigotry, ulterior motives, and petulant hypocrisy.

BTW
I consider the atheistic position the epitome of silliness. However,
my constantly calling it silliness or bull manure doesn't really prove anything does it? It might strongly indicate, however, that I might be trying to annoy and get a rise. Which of course is a complete waste of space and time.

[Autolite]

Radrook, I will spare you, and the others, the agony of the overly long and poorly written diatribe that I had originally penned in response to your most recent post. Instead, please refer to the attached link. These folks can express my viewpoint much better than I ever could myself. Enjoy...


http://atheistfoxholes.org/

[schlitt]

I reccomend you pick up a copy of The varieties of scientific experience by Carl Sagan. It is a great book on the topic of religion, by a great man.

[Autolite]

I reccomend you pick up a copy of The varieties of scientific experience by Carl Sagan. It is a great book on the topic of religion, by a great man.

Advice taken. I am currently reading his book "The Demon-Haunted World" and will finish it soon...

[my_wan]

Which makes me start thinking about how forcing religion on kids and wanting creationism in schools is so wrong... BUT that an entirely different subject altogether. ^-^;

Anywho. I'd appreciate pointers in order to further educate myself. :)

This is actually a good subject to educate yourself about. The ID (Intelligent Design) crowd has a long history of trying to impose on the school curriculum. I'll use Radrook's post on this thread as an example. You may also want to read the court transcripts from the Dover trial in which ID lost, and not for the reasons the ID crowd cries about.
http://forums.randi.org/cmps_index.php?pageid=dover (Court transcripts)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
ID tried to base its scientific validity on the notion of Irreducible Complexity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
By irreducibly complex they hoped to show that evolution was impossible because if you broke any part of the system the animal died. The problem is that, in spite of massive numbers of demonstrations that irreducibly complex systems can in fact evolve from simpler systems, the ID people still cling to it as proof against evolution. Even the very examples the originator Michael Behe proposed has been demonstrated to be evolvable from simpler system for other purposes. Even included in the court transcripts is Behe's flagellum, etc., examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_HVrjKcvrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdQRvSdLAs
And to be fair here is one where they are still trying to convince people with the same BS, and even mentions changing school curriculum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YL6YlUe5Yw
And just to cover all bases here is some comic relief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEj3g5GOYA

Now for the part about Radrook.

Your question answers itself with the word "forcing" which conveys tyranny and injustice.

Let's suppose you are a Muslim. Would you appreciate being forced to eat pork? Whether a child participates in a religious ceremony or not should be left to parental judgment and should never be forced once the child reaches an age where he can logically weigh pros and cons and decide for himself. Atheist parents might not want their child forced to pray to a God they have taught their child doesn't exist. However, I see nothing wrong in allowing prayer for those who are willing or allowed to participate.

Bolding mine. Radrook, you know good and well that your implications are disingenuous. The same laws that says teachers and other government employees cannot initiate or direct prayers in school also precludes those same government employees from interfering with the prayers or participation in prayers of those students, in their own time school property or not. The real agenda of the fundamentalist is to have control of the prayers in school, regardless of who or what their parents think or want. If school officials do interfere the ACLU will represent the religious just as quickly as they will defend students when the school tries to control religious services in school.

ACLU of New Jersey Joins Lawsuit Supporting Second-Grader's Right to Sing "Awesome God" at Talent Show
http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/20174prs20050920.html
ACLU Helps Free New Mexico Street Preacher From Prison
http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/19918prs20050804.html
Court Showdown Averted as Town Allows Homeless Ministry to Resume Operations
http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/37921prs20081119.html
ACLU Sues School District For Punishing Kindergarten Student Because Of Family's Religious Beliefs
http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/37022prs20081002.html
ACLU Files Federal Lawsuit To Protect Religious Liberty Of New Jersey Prisoner
http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/37958prs20081203.html
ACLU of Michigan Defends Catholic Man Coerced to Convert to Pentecostal Faith in Drug Rehab Program
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/22354prs20051206.html

In fact if you go over the ACLU cases you should notice that many of the so called anti-religious cases were in fact cases were one religious sect was sued for forcing their religion to the exclusion of others.

ACLU Urges North Carolina Courts to Allow Use of Multiple Religious Texts for Swearing Oaths
http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/19937prs20050711.html
Military Reverses Bible Distribution Policy At Induction Centers
(Special treatment to giving out certain bible but excluding other bibles)
http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/38131prs20081218.html

So Radrook, under the guise of "allowing prayer", which all Americans already have government property or not, what you are really arguing is that your religion should have special privileges to be taught to students by government officials in school, regardless of what the parents might or might not want.

City of Portland Upholds Freedom of Religion
http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/36544prs20080822.html
"Tonight was a victory for all Mainers who care about religious liberty," said Zachary Heiden, Legal Director for the MCLU, who assisted in Rabbi Wilansky's appeal. "The government is not allowed to tell people where or how to practice religion, and we applaud the Zoning Board for recognizing that truth."

Radrook, you best be careful what you ask for!!!

[AngelicAtheist333]

Um..... why not just let kids practice whatever beliefs they want without imposing on them others beliefs? That seems like a good idea. :D

[my_wan]

Um..... why not just let kids practice whatever beliefs they want without imposing on them others beliefs? That seems like a good idea. :D

Yes, but our fundie friends want to control what beliefs are practiced, and even use government employees in our schools to direct it. That's what makes Radrook's post so dangerous, even for himself. "I see nothing wrong in allowing prayer for those who are willing or allowed to participate" sounds so inoccent, yet who decides what prayers events are available to participate in? Implying students can't pray, even as a group, in the manner they choose is also a lie. It's an arguement to get government employees to sponsor the prayers they want, prostelitizing the beliefs they want. Not even Christians can agree what those beliefs should be. They even want to teach lies in science class to support their beliefs.

[soylent]

Angelic, you might wish to watch the beyond belief conferance that covers a variety of different topics from religion, science, biology and consciousness:

2006: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-science-religion-reason-and-survival

2007: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-enlightenment-2-0

2008: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-candles-in-the-dark

[slingblade]

Um..... why not just let kids practice whatever beliefs they want without imposing on them others beliefs? That seems like a good idea. :D

Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it lie and said he's always trod the straight and narrow, but if he's honest, he'll chuck the whole lot as the rubbish it really is.

Angelic, also try Nizkor.org for some really good explanations and examples of logical fallacies. Well-written, good examples, easy to understand. It's a site dedicated to fighting Holocaust denial, and knowing your fallacies is like driving a tank through the trash.

I envy you, realizing all this at your age. Lucky, smart young woman. You'll go far if you keep this up. :)