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Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 03:17 PM
http://www.rense.com/general63/brain.htm
The reason for my apparently absurd question is the remarkable research conducted at the University of Sheffield by neurology professor the late Dr. John Lorber. When Sheffield's campus doctor was treating one of the mathematics students for a minor ailment, he noticed that the student's head was a little larger than normal. The doctor referred the student to professor Lorber for further examination. The student in question was academically bright, had a reported IQ of 126 and was expected to graduate. When he was examined by CAT-scan, however, Lorber discovered that he had virtually no brain at all. Instead of two hemispheres filling the cranial cavity, some 4.5 centimetres deep, the student had less than 1 millimetre of cerebral tissue covering the top of his spinal column.

The student was suffering from hydrocephalus, the condition in which the cerebrospinal fluid, instead of circulating around the brain and entering the bloodstream, becomes dammed up inside. Normally, the condition is fatal in the first months of childhood. Even where an individual survives he or she is usually seriously handicapped. Somehow, though, the Sheffield student had lived a perfectly normal life and went on to gain an honours degree in mathematics. This case is by no means as rare as it seems. In 1970, a New Yorker died at the age of 35. He had left school with no academic achievements, but had worked at manual jobs such as building janitor, and was a popular figure in his neighbourhood. Tenants of the building where he worked described him as passing the days performing his routine chores, such as tending the boiler, and reading the tabloid newspapers. When an autopsy was performed to determine the cause of his premature death he, too, was found to have practically no brain at all.

Professor Lorber has identified several hundred people who have very small cerebral hemispheres but who appear to be normal intelligent individuals.[....]


http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm
Is the Brain Really Necessary?

This was the question asked by British neurologist John Lorber when he addressed a conference of pædiatricians in 1980. Such a frivolous sounding question was sparked by case studies Lorber had been involved in since the mid-60s. The case studies involve victims of an ailment known as hydrocephalus, more commonly known as water on the brain. The condition results from an abnormal build up of cerebrospinal fluid and can cause severe retardation and death if not treated.

Two young children with hydrocephalus referred to Lorber presented with normal mental development for their age. In both children, there was no evidence of a cerebral cortex. One of the children died at age 3 months, the second at 12 months. He was still following a normal development profile with the exception of the apparent lack of cerebral tissue shown by repeated medical testing. An account of the children was published in Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology.

Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young man with a larger than normal head. He was referred to Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty. Although the boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had "virtually no brain". A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness. The rest of his skull was filled with cerebrospinal fluid. The young man continues a normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.

Although anecdotal accounts may be found in medical literature, Lorber is the first to provide a systematic study of such cases. He has documented over 600 scans of people with hydrocephalus and has broken them into four groups: [....]


What about this then? Exaggerated?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lorber
John Lorber (1915–1996) was a professor of paediatrics at the University of Sheffield from 1979 until his retirement in 1981. He worked before at the Children's Hospital of Sheffield where he became renowned for his work on spina bifida.

In 1980, Roger Lewin published an article in Science, "Is Your Brain Really Necessary?"[1], about Lorber studies on cerebral cortex losses. He reports the case of a Sheffield University student who had a measured IQ of 126 and passed a Mathematics Degree but who had hardly any discernible brain matter at all since his cortex was extremely reduced by hydrocephalus.

The article led to the broadcast of a Yorkshire Television documentary of the same title. The brain does not show up on X-Ray so it was only when brain scanning technology became available in the mid 1970s that these many cases of hydrocephalus patients with massively reduced brains came to light.

Today, greatly improved standards of ante natal care mean that there are far fewer such cases for study.

In his later years Lorber, who was himself a member of the Nobel Prize committee, expresed great sorrow that more attention had not been paid to his sensational findings and that more follow up work had not been done.



Anyone have access to his science publications that actually documented these people? this website references one paper that I dont have access to: Where Is Consciousness? I've Lost It! (http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm)


Dev Med Child Neurol. 1992 Jul; 34(7):623 - 32. Related Articles, Links

Reciprocal neurological developments of twins discordant for hydrocephalus.

Berker E, Goldstein G, Lorber J, Priestley B, Smith A
Psychology Department, Kalamazoo Regional Psychiatric Hospital, Michigan 49008

Studies of 10 sets of twins discordant for hydrocephalus in early life revealed striking differences in degree and nature of development of verbal versus non-verbal cognitive functions, birth order, and hand and eye preference. Despite similar (4 dizygotic pairs) or identical (6 monozygotic pairs) genetic endowment and grossly similar intra- and extra-uterine environmental and socio-economic influences, the consistency of the differences between the hydrocephalic children and their seemingly normal twins indicate systematic differences in pre-, peri- and/or early postnatal organisation and development of hemispheric function. Follow-up studies also documented development of above-average intelligence, despite drastically reduced cerebral mantle size in hydrocephalus of early onset. The atypical patterns of development of the non-hydrocephalic twins also confirm previously described qualifications reported in studies of the significance of genetic cersus environmental factors in twins.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 03:25 PM
aha, this is a relevant one published in science in 1980 on this: Is Your Brain Really Necessary? (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980Sci...210.1232L)

Dont have access though.

Professor Yaffle
12th December 2008, 03:41 PM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors.html

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 03:50 PM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors.html



Whoa! I see what they mean by 'virtually no brain at all'

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn12301/dn12301-1_750.jpg

Do not hotlink images.

Intelligence tests showed the man had an IQ of 75, below the average score of 100 but not considered mentally retarded or disabled.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 03:52 PM
Edited. Due to silliness.

AWPrime
12th December 2008, 03:54 PM
First off: essential for what?

AWPrime
12th December 2008, 03:55 PM
This doesn't bode well for the brain > consciousness paradigm. The consciousness > brain paradigm just gained a point.
But he still has a brain.

Professor Yaffle
12th December 2008, 03:56 PM
The only thing I think it shows is the amazing plasticity and adaptability of the developing brain.

paximperium
12th December 2008, 03:56 PM
This doesn't bode well for the brain > consciousness paradigm. The consciousness > brain paradigm just gained a point.
No. You have no idea what you're talking about at all.

The person continues to have a fully functioning brain. The excess pressure from the hydrocephalus compresses all the neural tissue but IT IS ALL STILL THERE. Every single neuron is still there but compressed.

You claim is falsified and downright stupid.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 04:04 PM
No. You have no idea what you're talking about at all.

The person continues to have a fully functioning brain. The excess pressure from the hydrocephalus compresses all the neural tissue but IT IS ALL STILL THERE. Every single neuron is still there but compressed.

You claim is falsified and downright stupid.

Yeah. Thats why I edited it. A moment of madness.

But its a very hard thing to prove either way. Consciousness, consciousness, where art thou o consciousness?

So anyone got the studies of Mr Lorber? Would love to see some of the scans he did, and if they are even smaller, as having an IQ of 120 with a brain smaller than that one would be a feat indeed.

Harpyja
12th December 2008, 04:10 PM
I have no experiance with neurology whatsoever, but I was thinking - if everything is still there and just simply compressed, perhaps the compression contributes to his intelligence by allowing the neurons to fire faster over shorter distances.

I'll shut up now.

paximperium
12th December 2008, 04:13 PM
But its a very hard thing to prove either way. Consciousness, consciousness, where art thou o consciousness?
Define consciousness and give some evidence that consciousness(as you define it) can exist without a brain.

So anyone got the studies of Mr Lorber? Would love to see some of the scans he did, and if they are even smaller, as having an IQ of 120 with a brain smaller than that one would be a feat indeed.
Since brain size have no correlation with intelligence(except in specific congenital growth problems etc.), I don't see your point.

PS: I have a friend who had a chunk of his brain removed because of a tumor and still has an IQ of 130(as if IQ really matters). Except for the motor impairment, he's pretty much functional. The "brain" isn't just one thing with one function.

paximperium
12th December 2008, 04:16 PM
I have no experiance with neurology whatsoever, but I was thinking - if everything is still there and just simply compressed, perhaps the compression contributes to his intelligence by allowing the neurons to fire faster over shorter distances.

I'll shut up now.
I believe that could be a valid hypothesis except that the distance that neurons travel don't really change in this scenario.

Most studies when comes to clues from how evolution directed brain development point towards how more efficient the brain became wired as opposed to pure size.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 04:21 PM
Define consciousness and give some evidence that consciousness(as you define it) can exist without a brain.

My NDE whilst in cardiac arrest.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 04:26 PM
Since brain size have no correlation with intelligence(except in specific congenital growth problems etc.), I don't see your point.


Yeah but its still a pretty amazing feature of the brain. What about a brain squashed to 1% of its size? would it still be possible? the size of a pea? Is there a limit? are there models to account for the amount of squashedness (sorry for all the technical terms) a brain can endure?

The "brain" isn't just one thing with one function.


Yeah, its two hemispheres with a purpose.

Professor Yaffle
12th December 2008, 04:30 PM
My NDE whilst in cardiac arrest.

You didn't have a brain while in cardiac arrest?

;)

athon
12th December 2008, 04:42 PM
My NDE whilst in cardiac arrest.

You do realise that cardiac arrest doesn't stop your brain from working? Even if you were fully brain dead and then recovered, given how memory works, there is no way you could demonstrate that any dream-like events that happened during that time were while the brain was devoid of activity.

NDE can be emotional and personal, sure. But they don't say anything about the separation of brain and mind.

Athon

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 04:44 PM
You didn't have a brain while in cardiac arrest?

;)


Well from where I was looking it didn't seem to matter whether I had a brain or not.

Anyway, some people in comas have been declared brain dead by physicians for weeks and nearly had their organs taken for donation only to come back and report NDE's like I had. Proof? No way. Proof that it happened when brain dead? No. How could that ever be proved? But I think its the kinda thing you have to experience to believe. And I cant prove it anymore than I can prove to everyone what thoughts are made of.

God Damn! Why does this always happen here. Gone off on a ruddy tangent again. This was gonna be a really good interesting thread now I've ruined it with supposed woo-woo.

Anyone accessed Mr Lorbers studies? I would be interested to see them if someone could attatch them to a post.

AWPrime
12th December 2008, 05:11 PM
What about the fact that NDE effects can be induced by stimulating the brain?

Dancing David
12th December 2008, 05:54 PM
Whoa! I see what they mean by 'virtually no brain at all'

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn12301/dn12301-1_750.jpg


The pictures don't show the interior of the brain, they do show parts of the cortex. And I hate to tell you this but, have you ever met a person with an IQ of &%, some have good social skills, some don't and are very inappropriate, some have good hygience, and some fail awfuly.

It depends a lot on the individual but people with an IQ of 75 don't function at the 'high' level.

DSM-IV

Mild Mental Retardation affects 85 percent of the mentally retarded population. Their IQ score ranges from 50-75. Many individuals within this group can achieve academic success at about the sixth grade level. They can become self-sufficient and in some cases, live independently with community and social support.



Now I am more impressed by the report of the individual with an IQ of 126 and a math degree.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 06:03 PM
What about the fact that NDE effects can be induced by stimulating the brain?


Yes its fascinating. Especially the Hemi-Sync Audio technology at the monroe institute and everything. I know someone's friend who went there, and after he had it done to him he apparently completely changed his outlook on life. Quit his job in business, phoned up all his old rivals and appologised for how harsh he was to them, started working as a counsellor and moved to hawaii. Completely changed. Crazy.

And DMT seems to induce a very similar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MQUGjd21MA) state to NDE's, which is thought to be synthesised in the pineal gland at times of great stress in our lives. Its already known to be in small amounts endogenously in our blood anyway. The pineal gland possesses the highest levels of serotonin anywhere in the body, and serotonin is a crucial precursor for pineal melatonin and the pineal also has the ability to convert serotonin to tryptamine, a critical step in DMT formation. Methyltransferases that convert serotonin, melatonin, or tryptamine into psychedelic compounds also are present in extraordinarily high concentrations in the pineal. Simply methylate tryptamine twice, and we have di-methyl-tryptamine, or DMT. Maybe the monroe institute is using waveforms that excite the natural/ressonant frequency of molecules in the pineal that create DMT, or even the DMT itself, to induce these altered states.


No hope for this thread now. Major hijack in process..... At least its my own thread :)

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 06:07 PM
If anyones want to post Lorbers study of the high IQ dude with the tiny brain that would be great. I dont know which journal its in though, so I dont know where to start looking.

Professor Yaffle
12th December 2008, 06:13 PM
There's a bit of discussion of Lorber's work in this article:

Lorber’s claims were never publicly refuted. And Lorber - who died in 1996 - stuck firmly to his story, claiming that in 500 CT scans he had found many hydrocephalics with hardly any brain left above the level of the brainstem and yet living ordinary lives (Lorber, 1981). So a little detective work was needed to get to the bottom of this one.

Talking to colleagues and contemporaries of Lorber, it was revealed he was probably greatly exaggerating the extent of brain loss in his cases. Said one source: "If the cortical mantle actually had been compressed to a couple of millimetres, it wouldn't even have shown up on his X-rays."

Another agreed, adding that brain scans with modern techniques such as MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) show stretching, but not much real loss of brain weight with slow-onset hydrocephalus. He says the brain structure adapts to the space it is allowed: "The cortex and its connections are still there, even if grossly distorted."


http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_lorber_myth.html

ETA: It was amazing the number of woo sites that came up when I was googling for that...

Dancing David
12th December 2008, 06:22 PM
I haven't found a good source yet, but it would appear that in hydrocephaly, the thickness of the surviving cerebral cortex is related to IQ, I have Googles and found that 'hydrocephalus cerebral mantle', shows some studies which show that treating the growing brain and preserving the structure of the cortex is crucial to a higher functioning individual with hydrocephaly.

So perhaps the individual who had an IQ of 126 may have had a thin cortex in places and a thick one in others.

Wowbagger
12th December 2008, 06:26 PM
I guess it's no longer an insult to say someone has a tiny brain.

Zeuzzz
12th December 2008, 07:08 PM
Talking to colleagues and contemporaries of Lorber, it was revealed he was probably greatly exaggerating the extent of brain loss in his cases. Said one source: "If the cortical mantle actually had been compressed to a couple of millimetres, it wouldn't even have shown up on his X-rays."


Dont they have the scans as proof to see if he was exaggerating? I wouldn't imagine they were locked away somewhere for no-one to see. Or do we have a conspiracy on our hands here. Call the men in black, we've got some brains scans to track down. Or, realistically, maybe just a lack of proof.

Delvo
12th December 2008, 10:05 PM
The brain shrinkage isn't the only thing getting exaggerated or lied about in these claims. Just a couple of years ago, I read several articles about a French man who had been found to have a compressed brain, which was reported as shocking because his life was so normal. Headlines and first paragraphs and first sentences of paragraphs all joined in this refrain. You'd have to trudge through the entire articles to find even one the buried little snippet contrary to this theme, and no one single article contained more than two of the following, pieced together from multiple separate articles which told only fragments of the same case:
1. He had been considered retarded all along.
2. He had always had trouble with coordination and movement.
3. He had nearly died and been hospitalized on multiple occasions prior to this discovery with different kinds of brain function problems and severe headaches.
4. He had long been in continuous treatment for these problems, with regular visits to a doctor, frequent neurological performance tests and exercises, and some kind(s) of medication(s).
5. Images included with one or two of the articles, showing the exact extent of the compression, revealed that verbal descriptions such as "barely a thin film around the inside of his skull" were simply lies and the actual thickness was clearly much thicker than that, as could be easily discerned even from a relatively small online image.

Also, because the compression in these conditions is outward from the center, a given linear depth decrease (one dimension) equates to a much smaller amount of volume decrease (cubic, three dimensions) than it sounds like. For example, if a sphere's radius increases by 2x, its volume increases by 8x, and if its radius increases by 3x, its volume increases by 27x. So if you arrange those three spheres with a single common center so they form shells inside or outside of each other like layers of the Earth, the innermost layer is one 27th of the total volume, the middle layer is seven 27ths of the total volume, and the remaining nineteen 27ths of the total volume are all in the outermost layer. By removing/compressing from the interior first, you could clear out two thirds of the radius depth and you'd still have more than two thirds of the volume left.

Also, in a normal brain, the thinking is done by gray matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_matter#Distribution), which is an outer surface layer anyway. The brain's volume is not filled with a constant, homogenous mass of thinking cells; the interior is other kinds of cells or cell extensions and other stuff. (This is why the outer surface is rolled & folded; it increases the surface area without requiring more volume.) So the harm from compression or deletion starting in the center starts with tissue that does not directly take part in intellectual processes itself. (If the central loss/compression gets severe enough, intellectual functions are indirectly affected by the gray matter's partial loss of support functions from the interior, and by the gray matter's inward folds being shallower.)

For that matter, a small but significant fraction of the interior volume is already supposed to be fluid anyway. The brain comes with four separate chambers and the various canals leading into and out of them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventricular_system), full of fluid. So I'm not sure by what factor they are increased in cases such as this, but I know the "starting point" is not zero.

leonAzul
13th December 2008, 04:52 AM
Dont they have the scans as proof to see if he was exaggerating? I wouldn't imagine they were locked away somewhere for no-one to see. Or do we have a conspiracy on our hands here. Call the men in black, we've got some brains scans to track down. Or, realistically, maybe just a lack of proof.

Most of his research took place before 1980 when this was first published, and he didn't have the kind of medical imaging available that he would have today. Dr. Lorber's scans were certainly better than anecdotal evidence, but it is only with advances in fMRI and related technologies that we can begin to gather really accurate data on this.

Dancing David
13th December 2008, 05:58 AM
Dont they have the scans as proof to see if he was exaggerating? I wouldn't imagine they were locked away somewhere for no-one to see. Or do we have a conspiracy on our hands here. Call the men in black, we've got some brains scans to track down. Or, realistically, maybe just a lack of proof.


Not much of an answer Zeuzzz, why not actualy talk about the issue?

I stated as well that the millimieter claim may only be for one portion of the cortex. It could be that most of the cortex is much much thicker.

At this point we can't say, so this defense is just humor. Not to mention where the burden of proof would lie.

Dancing David
13th December 2008, 06:16 AM
There are cases of little to no cortex:

(Warning ooky image)
Anacephaly:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/anencephaly/anencephaly.htm

The prognosis for babies born with anencephaly is extremely poor. If the infant is not stillborn, then he or she will usually die within a few hours or days after birth.


Then there are other indicators as well:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/cerebellar_degeneration/cerebellar_degeneration.htm

or these:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cerebral+cortical+atrophy+

These would indicate that damage to the cortex, as in Alzheimers and severe strokes, febrile damage, infection or toxins are , um damaging to the functioning of people.

And so one has to ask, if cortical damage has such severe effects upon 'personhood' might that not indicate that brains are part of personhood?

sophia8
13th December 2008, 07:06 AM
No hope for this thread now. Major hijack in process..... At least its my own thread :)So you're not going to stay around to give us some cites for this claim of yours?

Anyway, some people in comas have been declared brain dead by physicians for weeks and nearly had their organs taken for donation only to come back and report NDE's like I had.

INRM
13th December 2008, 09:42 AM
Yeah a person needs a brain. How else would you be able to maintain consciousness and think?

The person in question did have a brain -- a very small brain, but nonetheless a brain.


INRM