Bigfoot DNA

[GT/CS]

Does anyone have any information on Ed Smith and Bigfoot DNA? Here is a post from BFF.

"For what it's worth, the 'Ed Smith' research project on the MABRC website has relatively recently received purported BF DNA testing results which tentatively indicate approximately 78% primate/gorilla and almost 3% human content. Admittedly this is at considerable variance with the Snelgrove Lake/Meldrum DNA findings of 2005 which only had a small sample of 300 genomes to examine. Further information and results to be forthcoming in the near future from the Ed Smith research findings.*"

"* Ed Smith's research documentation is the best I have yet seen. Unfortunately, his location site was apparently harassed and raided by persons associated with a 'high profile California-based bigfoot research organization' (you can easily guess who the culprits are - those who can not be named), resulting in the cessation of any further research reporting as of December 3 of this year. They have had to go underground until their research findings are complete."


http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24341&pid=505351&st=132&#entry505351

[LONGTABBER PE]

>>>which tentatively indicate approximately 78% primate/gorilla and almost 3% human content.

Oh my gawd

where is that report and dataset posted? ( thats not even a proper reporting format)

[Óðinn]

And 19% possum.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Good catch- what was the other 19% I wonder? EBE prehaps?

[WildCat]

good catch- what was the other 19% i wonder? Ebe prehaps?
chud

[GT/CS]

Well, at least we've been assured that it's a extremely professional research team! Looks like the results will hold up to the most rigorous scrutiny.

"Because of the apparently very high quality of the ongoing research efforts over several years, no information has 'leaked' into the public sphere to date. This speaks well for the professionalism and dedication of all of the individuals on Ed Smith's various research teams; covering up to 5 different locations, mostly in Oklahoma.

Because they have kept a tight rein on things the mainstream media has been kept entirely out of the loop - exactly where it should be - until all documentation and experimental repetition has been achieved and concluded.

What I can say is that their intention is to temporarily capture a juvenile BF for the purpose of filming the team of credentialed scientists as they take blood, tissue and hair samples for testing; after which the individual will be immediately released, unharmed, back into his own original territory. This will facilitate the scientific identification of the species once and for all. We all wait with 'bated breath."

[LONGTABBER PE]

Well, at least we've been assured that it's a extremely professional research team! Looks like the results will hold up to the most rigorous scrutiny.

"Because of the apparently very high quality of the ongoing research efforts over several years, no information has 'leaked' into the public sphere to date. This speaks well for the professionalism and dedication of all of the individuals on Ed Smith's various research teams; covering up to 5 different locations, mostly in Oklahoma.

Because they have kept a tight rein on things the mainstream media has been kept entirely out of the loop - exactly where it should be - until all documentation and experimental repetition has been achieved and concluded.

What I can say is that their intention is to temporarily capture a juvenile BF for the purpose of filming the team of credentialed scientists as they take blood, tissue and hair samples for testing; after which the individual will be immediately released, unharmed, back into his own original territory. This will facilitate the scientific identification of the species once and for all. We all wait with 'bated breath."


I wonder if they realize that such a film could lead to their arrest? ( depending on the trapping laws and DNR regulations of the state)

I wonder why one would need "credentialed scientists" to take samples? ( thats usually a technicians job)

I just fear we will wind up with yet another super duper secret.....well..... nothing

[sanguine]

"For what it's worth, the 'Ed Smith' research project on the MABRC website has relatively recently received purported BF DNA testing results which tentatively indicate approximately 78% primate/gorilla and almost 3% human content.


That's nonsensical.

There's no such thing, in describing calculated evolutionary relatedness, as X% organism A, Y% organism B. If you had really done some relevant DNA analyses (say, perhaps looking at mitochondrial DNA and the 16S ribosomal RNA sequence), you could say that it is X% similar to humans, Y% similar to gorilla, and Z% similar to mouse (and so forth), where the numbers would be in the high 90s if the organism you were testing were some intermediate between humans and other primates, and lower for the mouse.

You can't say something has 3% human DNA content.* It's cheap paperback novel (by an author who couldn't be bothered to do basic research) nonsense.

*Unless, perhaps, you are sequencing something that recently ATE a human, and you've accidentally sequenced its stomach contents along with the organism itself. Notably, these requires that you pureed the bigfoot first. Seems unlikely.

[LONGTABBER PE]

That's nonsensical.



Consider the source and subject. Thats BF "science" in all of its raving glory.

[sanguine]

Consider the source and subject. Thats BF "science" in all of its raving glory.

I know. But I thought I should point out, since random readers might not know, that that specific element of the quote was utter nonsense, since it's in my field (biology that is, not technobabble).

[Crowlogic]

There isn't any Bigfoot DNA

[kitakaze]

There isn't any Bigfoot DNA

Log, you mime skepticism very well. The problem is that considering you believe Bigfoots went extinct early in the last century (your thinly veiled belief in the PGF notwithstanding), it doesn't seem to be consistent with your beliefs. If Bigfoot went extinct less than 100 years ago then it wouldn't be unreasonable to think Bigfoot DNA might be out there somehwere to be discovered.

[Akhenaten]

There isn't any Bigfoot DNA

Which there would be in abundance by now, if there was such a thing as a bigfoot. According to the bleevers the damned things are everywhere.

Why is it that the vast majority of people start with the simple fact stated here by Crowlogic and easily conclude that there's no such critter, and yet others seem compelled somehow to start from a totally imaginary point where bigfoots MUST exist and then mangle what little "evidence" there is into supporting their contention that the DNA is just about to be identified?

Is it reasonable to see this as being similar to a religion, in that adherents are pretty sure that their bizarre claims will be borne out by science, any day now?

Pharaoh says:

"What phools these mortals be."

ETA: I'm aware that Crowlogic has a reason for the "no DNA" statement that isn't "no such creature ever existed", but I felt it better left alone.

[kitakaze]

According to the bleevers the damned things are everywhere.

Like, really everywhere:

Mangani's Bigfoot Maps. (http://penn.freeservers.com/bigfootmaps/)

Just consider every one of those countless dots as an opportunity for some shred of reliable evidence.

Nada. Bupkis. Nani mo nai.

[manofthesea]

19 pct skunk.

A'ohe.

[desertgal]

Why is it that the vast majority of people start with the simple fact stated here by Crowlogic and easily conclude that there's no such critter, and yet others seem compelled somehow to start from a totally imaginary point where bigfoots MUST exist and then mangle what little "evidence" there is into supporting their contention that the DNA is just about to be identified?



Boredom?

[manofthesea]

Which there would be in abundance by now, if there was such a thing as a bigfoot. According to the bleevers the damned things are everywhere.




That's indivisible bigfoot.

[manofthesea]

Why is it that the vast majority of people start with the simple fact stated here by Crowlogic and easily conclude that there's no such critter, and yet others seem compelled somehow to start from a totally imaginary point where bigfoots MUST exist and then mangle what little "evidence" there is into supporting their contention that the DNA is just about to be identified?


.

Which evidence is that?

Concerning the covert DNA operation, what does that entail? Blacked out trailer windows, "those chemical drums are DNA primers"...

[kitakaze]

:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_Yf4zz-yo

[Belz...]

"For what it's worth, the 'Ed Smith' research project on the MABRC website has relatively recently received purported BF DNA testing results which tentatively indicate approximately 78% primate/gorilla and almost 3% human content.

And the rest is bull.

[parnassus]

The latest DNA claims are being made by ex-cop and author David Paulides ("paw LYE dess"?) and Dr. Melba Ketchum, a Ph.D vet/entrepreneur in Texas, who branched out into the so-called forensic DNA market for identifying your mutt's parents and finding stolen horses, etc etc. Ketchum collaborated on the great Yetsploitation brouhaha over the hair from some TV show, that didn't look human, according to her, but had kind of like human DNA.
Paulides and Ketchum are touting some new findings and promising some peer-reviewed article in the spring of 2011.
From what I can read and surmise, it seems as if they are going to try and make the case that bigfoot is very similar to human and very similar in DNA to human, possibly indistinguishable. I think this is the inevitable direction for bigfooting to go, as it more or less obviates the issue of the missing body, so to speak....we've been finding bigfoot biological specimens all along, the reasoning would be, we just mistook them for human. It's totally win-win for everyone but Meldrum and his ape ideas.

[Mahaha]

That's nonsensical.

There's no such thing, in describing calculated evolutionary relatedness, as X% organism A, Y% organism B. If you had really done some relevant DNA analyses (say, perhaps looking at mitochondrial DNA and the 16S ribosomal RNA sequence), you could say that it is X% similar to humans, Y% similar to gorilla, and Z% similar to mouse (and so forth), where the numbers would be in the high 90s if the organism you were testing were some intermediate between humans and other primates, and lower for the mouse.

You can't say something has 3% human DNA content.* It's cheap paperback novel (by an author who couldn't be bothered to do basic research) nonsense.

*Unless, perhaps, you are sequencing something that recently ATE a human, and you've accidentally sequenced its stomach contents along with the organism itself. Notably, these requires that you pureed the bigfoot first. Seems unlikely.

That is all true (everyone who has EVER studied ANYTHING about DNA sould know), and should conclusively put this bigfoot DNA "article" into the nonsense folder.

I mean, 3% human, 78% this, the rest something else... looks like a comic book I read while in middle school.

[parnassus]

Ketchum and Paulides sound very convinced (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/bigfootbusters/2010/11/01/bigfoot-busters-radio)that they have bigfoot DNA and that they have done the science correctly and will have a paper that is done right. They talk as if they have bigfoot specimens from all over the country. Paulides seems to be calling the shots as to how much information they are releasing.
Ketchum says they are writing the paper, but are still taking specimens (? ?; last time I heard it was 200 bucks a throw) and expect to have the paper published by the spring.

[William Parcher]

The latest DNA claims are being made by ex-cop and author David Paulides ("paw LYE dess"?) and Dr. Melba Ketchum, a Ph.D vet/entrepreneur in Texas, who branched out into the so-called forensic DNA market for identifying your mutt's parents and finding stolen horses, etc etc. Ketchum collaborated on the great Yetsploitation brouhaha over the hair from some TV show, that didn't look human, according to her, but had kind of like human DNA.
Paulides and Ketchum are touting some new findings and promising some peer-reviewed article in the spring of 2011.
From what I can read and surmise, it seems as if they are going to try and make the case that bigfoot is very similar to human and very similar in DNA to human, possibly indistinguishable. I think this is the inevitable direction for bigfooting to go, as it more or less obviates the issue of the missing body, so to speak....we've been finding bigfoot biological specimens all along, the reasoning would be, we just mistook them for human. It's totally win-win for everyone but Meldrum and his ape ideas.


As was mentioned here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6492073&postcount=216) Paulides and Ketchum were on a radio interview show last night. It's now archived and can be heard at that link. Did you listen yet?

Ketchum says that she is not a PhD. She is fully confident that they have Bigfoot DNA and is finishing the paper now to send off for scientific peer review and publication. She says that if the peer review rejects this that it would be strictly based on anti-Bigfoot bias and not because of analysis or interpretation errors. IOW, she states that the science behind her conclusion is 100% accurate. If she is rejected she will move on to the next publication and so on until it is accepted and published. She says she knows of one editor who would be quite interested already. She said going "international" is possible if it is rejected in what might be mainstream science publications.

Paulides has a habit of not really answering questions directly. He confidently talks about Bigfoot mating with human (Indian) females as if it were a matter of fact. Something about how human males rape thousands of women each year... so why not Bigfoot raping women too.

You also get a bonus as Adrian Erickson (Kentucky Bigfoot Pancake Project) calls in and we hear from him.

[parnassus]

If you listen closely to Paulides and the relationship between the two, I think you can figure out what this scam is gonna be about. I actually think that Ketchum is probably an ignorant tool of Paulides, who has come up with a pretty clever idea of how to game the system.


WP: her bio says: she received her doctorate in Veterinary Medicine. Somewhat misleading. I have never heard of an MD or a vet refer to their degree as a doctorate.

[C_Felix]

Lets assume there is a bigfoot.
We manage to get some blood off of something
(I remember an episode of Monster Quest. A cabin in the deep woods of Alberta was broken into a few times, usually through the front door. The man thought it was a bear. What he did was take a 3x3 foot piece of plywood, and screw in about 100 screws so the head was flush. He placed this in the front of the door with the screws up with the hope that anything that stepped on it (bear or bigfoot) would get hurt and scared off. There was some dried blood type of goo stuff in one of the threads of the screw. Lets assume we get a nice fresh sample off of one of the screws.)

If we get this nice fresh sample and test it, the test would be inconclusive, wouldn't it?
We have nothing to compare it to.
We can't look at it like we would a dog's sample and be able to nail it down as a dog...
Know what I mean?

[GT/CS]

It wouldn't be inconclusive, it would be from an unclassified primate, or whatever bigfoot is.

I'm waiting for the day when some believer or hoaxer mixes gorilla blood with human blood and submits that sample for testing just to prove all the skeptics wrong.

[William Parcher]

I'm waiting for the day when some believer or hoaxer mixes gorilla blood with human blood and submits that sample for testing just to prove all the skeptics wrong.


That won't work because the two different DNAs won't blend. It will only look like contamination.


If you listen closely to Paulides and the relationship between the two, I think you can figure out what this scam is gonna be about. I actually think that Ketchum is probably an ignorant tool of Paulides, who has come up with a pretty clever idea of how to game the system.

You seem to suggest that it will be human DNA that is used in the "trick". But Ketchum already talks about the issue of contamination and how it is a potential problem. If the Bigfoot sample matches human markers then she is forced to deal with her own question of contamination. I don't think she will walk there given what she says. She would know that it is too vulnerable to bad peer review (just simple human contamination) and rejection. I think she is banking on measurable differences.

Paulides admits that the sample origin is bone. Are you suggesting that he has human bone and knows it?

[Weak Kitten]

What I can say is that their intention is to temporarily capture a juvenile BF for the purpose of filming the team of credentialed scientists as they take blood, tissue and hair samples for testing; after which the individual will be immediately released, unharmed, back into his own original territory. This will facilitate the scientific identification of the species once and for all. We all wait with 'bated breath.

Um, as far as I'm concerned if they manage to capture anything that would be the end of the question. Why bother releasing it? Keep the blasted thing!

Few believed in the platypus until someone captured a live one (not that I blame them I mean the platypus is pretty crazy). One live specimen would be the holy grail, why would they even conciser releasing it if they caught one?

[William Parcher]

Why bother releasing it?


It makes sense when you understand The Mind of Ed Smith (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=42080) and Strategies of Bigfoot Hoaxing. Bigfoot doesn't exist so you cannot possess a live specimen and you certainly can't show it to anyone. You can tell people that you did capture a live one and then you let it go.

The "we will release it" part is a necessary feature of the planned Ed Smith hoax.

[GT/CS]

That won't work because the two different DNAs won't blend. It will only look like contamination.



True, but I didn't say it would work. I said some believer or hoaxer will try it.

[GT/CS]

What I can say is that their intention is to temporarily capture a juvenile BF for the purpose of filming the team of credentialed scientists as they take blood, tissue and hair samples for testing; after which the individual will be immediately released, unharmed, back into his own original territory. This will facilitate the scientific identification of the species once and for all. We all wait with 'bated breath.

How does one expect to capture a juvenile bigfoot without mama bigfoot and papa bigfoot inflicting serious bodily damage on the capturers?

[LTC8K6]

How does one expect to capture a juvenile bigfoot without mama bigfoot and papa bigfoot inflicting serious bodily damage on the capturers?

Child size pork and beans.

[The Shrike]

How does one expect to capture a juvenile bigfoot without mama bigfoot and papa bigfoot inflicting serious bodily damage on the capturers?

Really not an issue if you don't believe in bigfoot yourself and your goal is simply to play the 'footers with a hoax.

[Weak Kitten]

It makes sense when you understand [I]
The "we will release it" part is a necessary feature of the planned Ed Smith hoax.

Let me guess. When they do manage to capture one there will be a mysterious malfunction in their camera equipment. Or for some unknown reason not a single person present will have any skill with a camera or all have bizarrely shaky hands.

The leaders knowing it is a hoax would explain why they never bother to take the normal steps a scientist would take in trying to determine the existence of a new species. Things like figuring out what sort of food sources would be necessary based on similar animals and then examining if the locations this animal has been reported in have that level of food resources. There are already bears in many of those woods. If there are a lot of bears then there is no room, as far as food is concerned, for another large predator/scavenger.

[parnassus]

Lets assume there is a bigfoot.
We manage to get some blood off of something
(I remember an episode of Monster Quest. A cabin in the deep woods of Alberta was broken into a few times, usually through the front door. The man thought it was a bear. What he did was take a 3x3 foot piece of plywood, and screw in about 100 screws so the head was flush. He placed this in the front of the door with the screws up with the hope that anything that stepped on it (bear or bigfoot) would get hurt and scared off. There was some dried blood type of goo stuff in one of the threads of the screw. Lets assume we get a nice fresh sample off of one of the screws.)

If we get this nice fresh sample and test it, the test would be inconclusive, wouldn't it?
We have nothing to compare it to.
We can't look at it like we would a dog's sample and be able to nail it down as a dog...
Know what I mean?

I think you have identified one of the important components (and possibly the inspiration) of the forthcoming scam. Toss in a dash of the OJ Simpson mess, flavor with a naive DNA lab, and stir with an ex-cop of questionable ethics.

[William Parcher]

I think you have identified one of the important components (and possibly the inspiration) of the forthcoming scam. Toss in a dash of the OJ Simpson mess, flavor with a naive DNA lab, and stir with an ex-cop of questionable ethics.

But you haven't explained what it is that you think Paulides physically handed to Ketchum. She put that into her "machine" and out popped the result: B-I-G-F-O-O-T.

[SweatyYeti]

It wouldn't be inconclusive, it would be from an unclassified primate, or whatever bigfoot is.




Bigfoot, if real, would be a Primate. (Obviously)

[Mahaha]

This bigfoot stuff has always had me amazed.
Woo-woos can't even resort to the Goddidit argument, so what do they answer when one asks them the thousand reasonable questions that the existence of the bigfoot arises?

[LTC8K6]

Bigfoot, if real, would be a Primate. (Obviously)

I don't know how you'd know that. What you mean is that you believe it.

You don't know for certain that Patty is a real example and you can't be sure of the tracks. You might believe in those items, but that's far from good enough to proclaim that Bigfoot is obviously a primate.

[LTC8K6]

I thought there were a bunch of different types of sasquatch anyway.

[C_Felix]

Lets assume there is a bigfoot.
We manage to get some blood off of something
(I remember an episode of Monster Quest. A cabin in the deep woods of Alberta was broken into a few times, usually through the front door. The man thought it was a bear. What he did was take a 3x3 foot piece of plywood, and screw in about 100 screws so the head was flush. He placed this in the front of the door with the screws up with the hope that anything that stepped on it (bear or bigfoot) would get hurt and scared off. There was some dried blood type of goo stuff in one of the threads of the screw. Lets assume we get a nice fresh sample off of one of the screws.)

If we get this nice fresh sample and test it, the test would be inconclusive, wouldn't it?
We have nothing to compare it to.
We can't look at it like we would a dog's sample and be able to nail it down as a dog...
Know what I mean?

It wouldn't be inconclusive, it would be from an unclassified primate, or whatever bigfoot is.


Bigfoot, if real, would be a Primate. (Obviously)

So, if "we" manage to get a nice and new blood sample and it comes back as
*Primate, but we can't identify which primate
*Assuming this is in North America.
*If it was human, we'd be able to identify it, what other primate could/would it be?

Also...if this does happen, the spin (as always) will go both ways.
Anti-bigfoot, "It is inconclusive. A match couldn't be made."
Pro-bigfoot, "What else could it be! There's no other primate on the North American continent! Of course a match couldn't be made, we don't have a definitive bigfoot sample!"

[The Shrike]

Also...if this does happen, the spin (as always) will go both ways.
Anti-bigfoot, "It is inconclusive. A match couldn't be made."
Pro-bigfoot, "What else could it be! There's no other primate on the North American continent! Of course a match couldn't be made, we don't have a definitive bigfoot sample!"

It's possible to place that "unknown" sample in context by constructing a phylogenetic tree, a la figure 1 from Milinkovitch et al. 2004. Unless the sample itself is somehow compromised, there's no excuse for reporting on "bigfoot DNA" without producing a figure like this. It would be the whole point of the analysis because it would tell us exactly what that unknown thing is.

[William Parcher]

Crazyman Ed Smith is back holding court (http://www.mid-americabigfoot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2321) on the MABRC forum with dribblepus about Bigfoot DNA.

"PRJ-082110-82-01A-Y210 North American Ape Genome Project"

What the hell is that... a serial number?

The samples will remain the property of the contributors which means that since the testing process will destroy the sample, we will issue a certification of the genetic base pairs or nucleotides will be sent to the contributors and this will serve as there claim to the sample dataset.

Ah yes, the samples will be destroyed. We wouldn't want any nasty attempts at replication of results.

[Óðinn]

Or cloning!!

[Drewbot]

Imagine the lab testing we could do on them thar bigfoots. being close to humans and all.

[Óðinn]

Isn't that what bigfoots are, experiments?

[Drewbot]

Wut? wut? speerments? no, the Bigfoot is alien recon. That iz why he is so hard to find.

[parnassus]

Paulides and Ketchum seem to to hit a snag. Wonder what it could be...lulz
http://www.triplicate.com/20110218111480/News/Local-News/The-smoking-gun

" While the book released in 2009 was being written, NABS was in the beginning stages of hair sample analysis.

A letter about a preliminary laboratory analysis of Stewart’s sample was published in the book.

The letter states that an expert examined the hair and found it to be from an animal of primate origin.

Since then, dozens more hair samples have been submitted for evaluation, and NABS hopes to have results soon, Paulides said.

The research has taken longer than expected due to the complexity of genetically tracing the hairs, Paulides said.

“That’s probably one of the reasons no one has tried to jump through the hurdles that we’re jumping through,” said Paulides. “It’s much more complicated than anyone thought.”

Paulides anticipates having the analysis completed within the next six months.

The work will be published in a report written by a group of scientists who will scrutinize the findings, Paulides said. "

[The Shrike]

The work will be published in a report written by a group of scientists who will scrutinize the findings, Paulides said. "

A "report" huh? Sounds like they're giving up on a journal article submission. I can't imagine why . . .

[parnassus]

Yes u can
I predict a falling out between Paulides and Ketchum when the latter realizes that the specimens she has been analyzing are all Native Americans. May have already happened. Popcorn.

[parnassus]

Just to recap, the announcement came back in August:
" ...Paulides...has been busy collecting bone and hair samples of purported Bigfoot. His research has led him into DNA evaluation of these samples.
Paulides and...Ketchum have found that some samples appear to have both human and animal characteristics.
Ketchum believes that very shortly she will have the final conclusions to the DNA testing. Then the results will be submitted for peer review..."

[Mister Earl]

Then the results will be submitted for peer review..."

I wonder if they mean "Scientific peer review via reputable journal" or "looked over by other 'footers."

[GT/CS]

Sorry, I haven't been following his road show, where did he get bone samples?

[parnassus]

The bone

Paulides has been rather secretive, and using some common sense I assume that he is hiding something for a reason. I assume for obvious reasons that it wasn't from the skeleton of a Sasquatch that they found in the woods. I assume that he obtained it in a tribal community. I assume it is a human relic. I imagine that being an ex cop Paulides knows the pitfalls associated with obtaining human remains and that is why he is playing it close to the vest. Paulides has a history of questionable ethics so I have pretty low expectations.

[GT/CS]

It must be human because we all know that bigfoot bones disolve in the soil.

[LTC8K6]

Gee...I wonder if they forgot that they are primates?

[dafydd]

Bigfoot, if real, would be a Primate. (Obviously)

A man in an ape suit is a primate.

[LTC8K6]

I notice the claim about the hairs being caught on barbs on the fence, but the fence shown wouldn't have any barbs...

[AlaskaBushPilot]

That's true, but I have a fence just like that to keep smaller animals out of the chickens. The bears still bust through. Also I joined two 4' tall sections with wire to make it 8' tall, and that's where even a committed large dog can wriggle through. The little nubs of wire can catch hair, but I would prefer it ripped their balls off.

I noticed from the story he wuz growin' the good bud.

That would be a powerful incentive to raid the farm by a long-haired hominid.

[mustbeso]

I'm new here and just finished reading the Bigfoot DNA thread which began in Nov. 2008. Why does it seem to take forever to analyze what is supposed to be bigfoot DNA? It's not just this example, it's all of them from Monster Quest to the BFRO, whatever. And why so few hairs to sample? When my old tom cat sleeps on a pillow he leaves enough hair to knit a skarf and yet I read of 2 or 3 hairs regarding the Skookum cast for instance.What drives people to continue this search when evertthing turns to 'inconclusive' at best and usually just disappears altogether?

[LTC8K6]

I'm new here and just finished reading the Bigfoot DNA thread which began in Nov. 2008. Why does it seem to take forever to analyze what is supposed to be bigfoot DNA? It's not just this example, it's all of them from Monster Quest to the BFRO, whatever. And why so few hairs to sample? When my old tom cat sleeps on a pillow he leaves enough hair to knit a skarf and yet I read of 2 or 3 hairs regarding the Skookum cast for instance.What drives people to continue this search when evertthing turns to 'inconclusive' at best and usually just disappears altogether?

It takes them a year to figure out how to say "inconclusive" to make it sound interesting.

[Hitch]

It takes them a year to figure out how to say "inconclusive" to make it sound interesting.

There was a case a couple years ago where some hairs were found in Canada (Saskatchewan?) near the location of a reported bigfoot sighting. The hairs were sent off for DNA analysis and we were all wondering how long it would take for the "Inconclusive" result to come back. A couple weeks later the lab reported. Bison hair. Not at all primate. No mystery. No doubt. 100% positive. Plain old bison hair. Not even the bigfooters could put a positive spin on that one.

[mustbeso]

There was a case a couple years ago where some hairs were found in Canada (Saskatchewan?) near the location of a reported bigfoot sighting. The hairs were sent off for DNA analysis and we were all wondering how long it would take for the "Inconclusive" result to come back. A couple weeks later the lab reported. Bison hair. Not at all primate. No mystery. No doubt. 100% positive. Plain old bison hair. Not even the bigfooters could put a positive spin on that one.

Yes, I remember reading that as well. Am I correct that the DNA sample from the Snell Grove Lake thing never went anywhere?

[Cleon]

The reason why DNA testing takes so long is that this sort of DNA test is fairly labor and time-intensive, and there aren't many labs that do it. The ones that do typically have a significant backlog, and frankly Bigfoot isn't a very high priority.

[parnassus]

More at Paulides website (maybe it has been there all along) confirming my idea of the general outlines of his scheme for passing off the DNA and hair of isolated tribal people as that of Bigfoot.
http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/bigfoot_dna.html

[parnassus]

The idea that Bigfoot is some sort of human is, as I have previously suggested, the only avenue open to bigfootery for its long term survival as a credible story in the age of DNA and trail cams. If Ketchum's paper is published in any real journal...It's gonna be devil take the hindmost... Will Meldrum cave on his apefoot hypothesis, toss his Sasquatch book on the fire as simply wrong?
or will he strike back at Paulides and Ketchum, precipitating the biggest rift yet amongst the believers, siding with Todd Disotell and the non believers, pointing out the obvious flaws in the tribal Bigfoot theory?

[HarryHenderson]

...Will Meldrum cave on his apefoot hypothesis, toss his Sasquatch book on the fire as simply wrong?...
Nope. Not even on his death bed. And at this point simply because (I think) he actually believes the nonsense he's proffered. At one time I had a serious brain fart and thought he was 'crazy like a fox' in that Bigfoot would never be disproven, at least not in this lifetime, so he knew his 'scientific reputation' was likely safe no matter what he vomited. But the 'cosmic truth' is he's just a maroon. A wannabe intellectual ne'er-do-well (and quintessential nerd) who simply stuck it out long enough to get an advanced doctorate degree - which, sadly for him, allowed him to think his **** don't stink...but it sooo does. ;)

[ReverendClog]

There is currently a supposed 'earth shattering' revelation just around the corner in Sasquatch territory. The much maligned, (and deservedly so), Erickson project and various other 'serious' bigfootery types have collated and analysed several samples and arrived at what appears to be a startling conclusion - the samples are '100% homo sapiens sapiens'.;)
And I bet you can guess what this tells the 'footers can't you?. Correctamundo -Bigfoot is a type of unclassified human, with DNA from all those pioneer women he used to capture to mate with!.:jaw-dropp
Words, and many other things fail me at this even-more-cockshreddingly-awful than usual reasoning.

Here is an interview with one Richard Stubstad, a statistician who was apparently kicked off the sooper-sekrit analysis project http://http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/interview-with-richard-stubstad-is-bigfoot-human/ (http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/interview-with-richard-stubstad-is-bigfoot-human/).

I guess most of you know where the footers hang out on the 'net so you'll know where to go.

Most of the relevant info that R.Stubstad appears to have pattled his nonsense from seems to come from here http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Achilli2004.pdf.

[LTC8K6]

Why mtDNA?

[drewid]

I'll just leave this here, it's about that loveable nipple-less mammalian egg-laying venomous furball the duck-billed platypus.

As part of their analysis, the researchers compared the platypus genome with genomes of the human, mouse, dog, opossum and chicken. They found that the platypus shares 82 percent of its genes with these animals. The chicken genome was chosen because it represents a group of egg-laying animals, including extinct reptiles, which passed on much of their DNA to the platypus and other mammals over the course of evolution.



http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/05/07/platypus.genome.explains.animals.peculiar.features .holds.clues.evolution.mammals

And don't forget we share something like 35% of nearly 7,000 tested genes with the banana plant.

Mind you all this talk of shared genes isn't strictly accurate, it's a lie-to-children, genes aren't that precise, it's more accurate to say we share a % of genetic materia or homology.

[parnassus]

Originally Posted by parnassus
a. There are some pretty bad journals in my field and i suspect in other fields as well.
b. It probably hinges on the honesty and credibility of those who submitted the samples.
-----
Shrike wrote:
Well, the bone sample apparently came from these loons, and the "tissue sample" is supposedly from a habituation site in Vermont. What kind of reject from a turnip truck could not see the importance of confirming the provenance of these samples? This seems far sketchier than anything Meldrum used for his ichnotaxon paper.
------
I somehow don't expect that the "finders" will identify themselves as "mogollonmonsters.com" or that reviewers/editors of lesser journals will perform background checks (Although I do think "Finding Bigfoot" should prompt them to) .

Incidentally I found it interesting that one "Bigfoot" group has submitted some 50 samples to Ketchum. The latest "moneymaker!"

[William Parcher]

I listened to a radio show which featured Ketchum. She said that her DNA findings and paper were rock solid for Bigfoot and essentially unassailable to peer review. She went on to say that she would submit to various publications and if they rejected it it would have to be for reasons other than the factuality of her material. IOW, only some kind of anti-Bigfoot bias would stop the approval. Interestingly, she said that if it does get rejected by the first string of publications there is a (unnamed) publication which will publish it. IOW, she has some Ace-In-The-Hole publication which she is certain will accept what she gives. Maybe it's some cryptozoology or Fortean journal.

[quarky]

I'm new to BF, and confused.
Is there money to be made?

This isn't like selling $10,000 divining rods.
What is the motivational drive?
Book sales?
Lectures?

Or is it more honest-type delusion?

Is anyone getting rich off big-foot?

[jayh]

>>>which tentatively indicate approximately 78% primate/gorilla and almost 3% human content.

Oh my gawd

where is that report and dataset posted? ( thats not even a proper reporting format)

This is not a case of percentages adding up to 100%. Since gorillas share substantial amount of DNA with humans, something like 78% gorilla should also be a substantial amount like human....


[since my wife has (lightheartedly?) placed bigfoot on her 'safe' list, I guess it's in my best interest that they don't show up..]

[RayG]

Is anyone getting rich off big-foot?



I'm skeptical anyone is getting rich, but I'm guessing Matt Moneymaker's three-day BFRO Expeditions are bringing in some nice spending money.

There are 14 expeditions from April - early October of this year listed on the BFRO website for example, and the fees range from $200 - $500 per person.

Keep in mind the BFRO provides no camping gear, food, or transportation on these expeditions.

If each expedition has at least 10 paying customers then the 14 expeditions should raise somewhere between $28,000 and $70,000.

Most of those expeditions are from the last week in July - the first week in October, or something like $20-50k in a span of a little more than two months.

RayG

[William Parcher]

I'm skeptical anyone is getting rich, but I'm guessing Matt Moneymaker's three-day BFRO Expeditions are bringing in some nice spending money.


But we don't really know if the ongoing viability (staying afloat) of the BFRO requires regular influxes of cash from Wally Hersom.

If you look behind Moneymaker and Meldrum you see at least one Sugar Daddy.

[Drewbot]

See below

[Drewbot]

Evidentally, the Jacobs Photo is still under debate, Oh, and they have two Bigfoot bodies.
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/06/27/new-erickson-project-news-bigfoot-dna-project-using-two-dead-bigfoot-bodies-for-samples/

From the blog of the SILVER FOX.

[The Shrike]

That guy will seriously spout anything.

[NoahFence]

Do people seriously believe in Bigfoot? I mean, there's a whole show dedicated to it now, "Finding Bigfoot" or something like that. Should be a long series as they're never going to find it.....

[LTC8K6]

Do people seriously believe in Bigfoot? I mean, there's a whole show dedicated to it now, "Finding Bigfoot" or something like that. Should be a long series as they're never going to find it.....

I think that's the idea...

There's a new movie coming out, too.

Bigfoot is a thriving industry.

http://www.cryptomundo.com/movie-monsters/skookum-update/

[drewid]

Do people seriously believe in Bigfoot? I mean, there's a whole show dedicated to it now, "Finding Bigfoot" or something like that. Should be a long series as they're never going to find it.....

Wasn't that "Harry and the Hendersons?"

[The Shrike]

http://www.cryptomundo.com/movie-monsters/skookum-update/

Canada Goose call while Great Egret flushes = fail.

[BaldSeagull]

Evidentally, the Jacobs Photo is still under debate, Oh, and they have two Bigfoot bodies.
.

They're STILL debating the Jacob's photos? The only Black bears I've ever seen are on TV, but when I first saw this photo I said "It's a skinny Black bear"! Maybe a big clue was the photos of the Black bears in the rest of the series.

[HarryHenderson]

That guy will seriously spout anything.
Who the **** is this Robert Lindsay IDIOT I was so pleasantly ignorant of less than 24 hours ago? A BFRO shill? Matt Moneymaker's preferred 'money shot' target? Did you all read his 'interview' with the 'great white hunter'? These guys take a whole lot better drugs than I do. Apparently I need a better connect...<dialtone>.

[mustbeso]

I have had a little interaction with Robert Lindsay and I really don't know how to take him. He certainly never met a bigfoot tale he didn't believe. I wonder if he did the math on what it would take to shoot 1000 bears and that, perhaps , the DNR of whatever state/province the guy was in might be a tad upset.

[RayG]

Who the **** is this Robert Lindsay...


I dunno, but he sure plays fast and loose with 'facts'. For example, this zinger (http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/the-patterson-gimlin-bigfoot-footage/):


The average man has shoulders 25 inches wide. A wide shouldered man is 28-29 inches. Humans with shoulders over 30 inches are nearly unheard of.


:jaw-dropp

Where does he live, Land of the Giants?

RayG

[mustbeso]

The news from Robert Lindsay gets stranger by the day. He is saying and, appears to believe, that Melba Ketchum is in possession of two tissue samples from two different big foots and that one of them is a juvenile. One of the samples is allegedly from the thigh. The questions of provenance and chain of custody seem not to bother them at all and the rumors that it '100% Homo Sapiens Sapiens' persist. If Paulides is involved in this as William Parcher thinks, this is going to be a complete mess.

[LTC8K6]

I dunno, but he sure plays fast and loose with 'facts'. For example, this zinger (http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/the-patterson-gimlin-bigfoot-footage/):



:jaw-dropp

Where does he live, Land of the Giants?

RayG

Land of the Lost?

[William Parcher]

Who the **** is this Robert Lindsay IDIOT I was so pleasantly ignorant of less than 24 hours ago?


Robert Lindsay/Silver Fox on BFF...

I live off a trust fund, and I'm basically on permanent early retirement for many years now. I got nothing to do all day, and I'm bored out of my head. This BF stuff is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.


Richard Stubstad on BFF...

While I'm 97% certain the sasquai actually exist (much to my own surprise, by the way), I still don't have a clue what its actual genetic make-up is. It could be anything between a completely new hominid (like a Denisovan) to a feral human of sorts--or even possibly several concurrent varieties, for example the "Western Sasquatch", the "Eastern Sasquatch", and the "Skunk Ape". These possible subdivisions may be interbreeding as well (if they exist), thus creating wider genetic diversity. In fact, this may be the only thing that allows them to survive--if we can just get folks to stop shooting them, as reported to be the case here in California last November or December. And no, neither of the first two mtDNA samples were from this purported kill. I told Dr. K I didn't want to even KNOW about such data, because it was MURDER--if in fact it happened.

[parnassus]

Paulides responds to Stubstad's grandstanding:

"I am highly disappointed in some people, people that asked to join the project...
Certain individuals that were allowed to join the project have personal objectives that were more important to them then the teams objectives....


....DNA identifies what the biped is, and we then have an indisputable answer. Remember, this isn’t a one or two specimen; these are samples from across North America. This isn’t one laboratory doing the testing; several have crosschecked the work of others. There is a specific story line about each of the specimens, how they were obtained, witnessed and how they are associated with the biped.

I can guarantee that the information you are reading in the media is but a shot glass of sludge on a mountain of data. The people releasing the information have extremely fragmented data on two of our 100+ samples. These people are not DNA experts, have never worked in that field yet feels compelled to let the world know their opinions. When we started the process of accumulating specimens we had hoped for a dozen.....
...

The next time you read anything associated with our project, understand that unless it comes directly from Dr. Ketchum, nobody has all of the results. There is only one DNA expert who has all the data sitting in front of them, Dr. Ketchum. There will always be people in this world who want to inflict pain and suffering into others who have worked years at a project, for little or no compensation, and it’s those people that gain some level of satisfaction in knowing they’ve inflicted that pain, taken the air out of that balloon, it’s those people I feel sorry for...

...

Yes, we are still accepting specimens for DNA testing. The DNA Project has a benefactor who pays for the testing process, the testing process and examination by a hair and fiber expert costs the submitter nothing. If you are interested in submitting a sample, please contact me directly.


David Paulides"
http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/bigfootblog.html
---------------
I am willing to bet that Paulides/Ketchum will not be trying to make the world believe that Bigfoot is an mtDNA haplogroup H whitey from a western European lineage, as Stubstad is. They will be trying to make North American tribal people (haplogroups ABCD or X) into Bigfoots IMHO....those are the folks that Paulides has been working with, and talking and writing about for the last several years. So Stubstad has really cut their legs out from under them with his leak that his two samples were group H.

(I love the "story line" bit...)

Popcorn...

[Correa Neto]

Quick question-

What are the reactions of bigfootery heavy weights like Meldrum to this drama?

They favor an ape other than H. sapiens and should be debating, presenting counter arguments.

[parnassus]

Quick question-

What are the reactions of bigfootery heavy weights like Meldrum to this drama?

They favor an ape other than H. sapiens and should be debating, presenting counter arguments.

Follow the money....I expect Meldrum will find a way to go along with a "hybrid" theory.

[William Parcher]

Follow the money....I expect Meldrum will find a way to go along with a "hybrid" theory.


I think Meldrum will find a way to say pretty much nothing about this. At the most, he would probably only say things like "hmm", "interesting", "curious", "surprising", etc.

He seems to be on-board thumbs-up (so to speak) with the Erickson Project, but I haven't seen him the same with the Ketchum Project. I don't know if he has any comments on record for that. I would imagine that he would support any DNA analysis of Bigfoot evidence, but that is still quite different from any subsequent finding that "DNA reveals Bigfoot to be human or a human hybrid".

[parnassus]

The implications of human mtDNA are apparently not evident to Stubstad and the bleevers. I expect that Meldrum would have a better understanding, and this would certainly make him reluctant to play along. On the other hand, he did come out with the "Bigfoot will eat your babies" idea.

One thing I know, it's gonna be a train wreck, unfolding in slow motion.

[William Parcher]

So Parn, what is this "Bigfoot is a hybrid" thing about?

Are they thinking that Bigfoot is a cross breed of a human and a Bigfoot? See the weirdness of that?

Are they saying that there are no living pure ancestral populations of the thing known as Bigfoot?

Or, are they saying that the world presently contains all of the below?:

Pure Humans
Pure Bigfoots
Human x Bigfoot hybrids

[The Shrike]

I know you didn't ask me, but my sense is that there's a gathering storm trying to make the case that bigfoot is fully human, it's just a subspecies of some sort. This makes characterizations of hybrids ambiguous.

I don't know that there's any unified message coming from the Ketchum fans.

[parnassus]

The hybrid idea was not one that I had even considered, but has been advanced at this stage by those who dont understand what that would mean. It is dead on arrival as far as I am concerned.

I don't think Paulides is trying for the hybrid idea; I think he is going for the "human yet Sasquatch" concept based on a few polymorphisms found in isolated tribal people. I guess sub-species is the terminology.

I am getting the impression from Stubstad's posts that Ketchum is (or was) as naive as I had suspected. Hence, my prediction of a train wreck. I get the feeling, from his latest post, that, while seeming to praise her, Paulides is now setting her up to take the fall.

It's all like "who shot JR?" at this point lol.

[LTC8K6]

Well, if it's human, it's protected...it has constitutional rights, etc...

If it asks for a lawyer, you'd have to stop questioning it...

[mustbeso]

Do you suppose that if a bigfoot wanted a lawyer they would have to bring in the guy that calls himself a crytolinguist to interpret? That would be totally awesome.

[The Shrike]

Do you suppose that if a bigfoot wanted a lawyer they would have to bring in the guy that calls himself a crytolinguist to interpret?

Nope anyone fluent in classical Spanish could serve as the interpreter, unless it was one of those Cajun bigfoots.

[Deacondark]

So, let me see if I have this correct: they're saying the "Bigfoot" DNA they have collected is human. So now, any human DNA they find in the woods, on a barbed wire fence, or on someones front porch can be claimed as Bigfoot DNA? That makes it really easy to "find Bigfoot" almost anywhere doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[parnassus]

So, let me see if I have this correct: they're saying the "Bigfoot" DNA they have collected is human. So now, any human DNA they find in the woods, on a barbed wire fence, or on someones front porch can be claimed as Bigfoot DNA? That makes it really easy to "find Bigfoot" almost anywhere doesn't it? :rolleyes:

That is why it is genius.
And it's not so far from the truth. The legendary Sasquatches described by the NW tribes were just humans of enemy tribes. The hoaxers and liars and hallucinators are humans. So that is much of sum of the "evidence." The zagnut monster was a human. The Silver Star and Marble Mountain and Frazier River figures were humans.

There is a residual of some misidentified bears, plus all the coyote, owl and other animal noises.

In sum, much if not most of the "Bigfoot" "evidence" is of human origin. Bigfoot is human, in a real sense. But not different from other humans.

[GT/CS]

How do you suppose they will try to explain Patty, which in their minds is their best evidence of bigfoot?

[William Parcher]

And it's not so far from the truth. The legendary Sasquatches described by the NW tribes were just humans of enemy tribes.


Why couldn't these tribes have purely imaginary bogeymen just like we do?

You seem to be saying that NAs told no lies, they were just mistaken or aggrandizers.

[The Shrike]

Why couldn't these tribes have purely imaginary bogeymen just like we do?

They could, but "involuntary adoption" was a relatively common practice among some tribes. For some, there were real people waiting in the woods to whisk them away. Their bogeymen weren't only imaginary.

[parnassus]

Why couldn't these tribes have purely imaginary bogeymen just like we do?

You seem to be saying that NAs told no lies, they were just mistaken or aggrandizers.

I'm saying that legendary monsters usually originate from real things. In the case of man-like monsters, they generally originate from humans perceived to be "different" or "alien". Even in advanced human cultures like our own, one can easily and recently find such references to races who differ from us by degrees of skin color, lip prominence, eyelid folds, etc. The concept that we are all one species is a pretty recent one. As a tall Anglo, I have been gawked at in isolated areas of the world, even including areas of North America where the average height is a foot less and facial/body hair is sparse.

(Parenthetically, I have spent a good bit of time studying North American Plains tribes and their languages, and the inadequacies of translations.)

Do Native Americans lie? Everyone lies. Tourist traps are everywhere. Did Paul Bunyan live in Brainerd? Did Jesus rise crom the dead? But are all these stories of big creatures just made up? I don't think so. Women and children WERE abducted from their tribes by fierce strong alien raiders, tribes moved about, life was perilous; accounts were told and imperfectly retold, and finally imperfectly translated.

[Vortigern99]

They were both real (to them) and imagined. The legends of the Thunder Bird and the Lake Tiger share a similar origin and function: partly based on real animals, but aggrandized and mythologized into creatures of supernatural power, and employed as functionaries in didactic folk tales.

[William Parcher]

They could, but "involuntary adoption" was a relatively common practice among some tribes. For some, there were real people waiting in the woods to whisk them away. Their bogeymen weren't only imaginary.


Now hold on there.

Abduction raids were not conducted by giant apemen. If they were witnessed in the act, then nobody saw anything other than nearby (enemy) tribe members who may have even been identifiable by their appearance. If they were not witnessed, then their description is fantasy or speculation. Why wouldn't common wild animals be implicated such as bears or cougars (or others in the Pleistocene epoch)?

When a tribe had experienced abductions they may have later also raided the enemy tribe and found their own stolen tribe members. Our children weren't taken by giant apemen. They were taken by our enemies and they aren't Sasquatch.

[parnassus]

New rumors posted by Robert Lindsay, supposedly from the Erickson project regarding the nuclear DNA of specimens submitted to Ketchum.
As judged by the polymorphisms in their nuDNA,
"Bigfoots are approximately 1/2 way between humans and chimps."
and their mtDNA is human. So they are some sort of hybrid. (!!!)
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/breathtaking-news-from-the-erickson-project/
Bigfoots are not quite us!!!
Plus gossip of strife between the various factions, and the tale of the two murdered Bigfoots becomes more accusatory in tone.
Is a demand for a sample of Obama's DNA in the cards? Stay tuned.

[LTC8K6]

Half way eh?

Such a nice scientific term...

[William Parcher]

If you saw a child being abducted by an enemy tribe you'd be a fool to describe the abductor as a giant woodland demon. You'll never get your kid back or revenge on the enemy tribe if you've got your braves out looking for a Saquatch.

Also, did NAs commit infanticide? You go toss your unwanted baby into the river and then wander back to the village and say that Sasquatch took her.

[GT/CS]

Parcher, you're overthinking it.

[parnassus]

Now hold on there.

Abduction raids were not conducted by giant apemen. If they were witnessed in the act, then nobody saw anything other than nearby (enemy) tribe members who may have even been identifiable by their appearance. If they were not witnessed, then their description is fantasy or speculation. Why wouldn't common wild animals be implicated such as bears or cougars (or others in the Pleistocene epoch)?

When a tribe had experienced abductions they may have later also raided the enemy tribe and found their own stolen tribe members. Our children weren't taken by giant apemen. They were taken by our enemies and they aren't Sasquatch.

If you read the early translations of the legends, not the "strained" versions, you will see that by and large these "creatures" acted human, used tools, clothing, shelter, boats etc. They were just bigger, stronger and in some cases hairier. In some cases they were smaller and not hairy. In many cases they were just clearly men, sometimes feral. Ted Kazinski, Bigfoot to tiny hairless Eskimos.

[mustbeso]

I was happy to find out that bigfoot years are about twice as long as human years according to Robert Lindsay. If they are human, why do their years need to be longer? I also thought that it was telling that Melba Ketchum chimed in. I hope they remove all the sharp objects at these bigfoot conferences, it could get really ugly.

[William Parcher]

Parcher, you're overthinking it.


It doesn't hurt anything to have as many thoughts as possible laid out on this table. Nobody can say what exactly was behind the Native American myths that are now attributed to Bigfoot by some people. Parn, says it was other humans. It might not be that simple.

[Deacondark]

Lets not forget that Native Americans may have dressed up in frightening costumes, or animal hides to conduct these raids. It's not uncommon throughout history.

[The Shrike]

. . . And if the risk of abduction was higher in certain areas of "no man's land" between tribal boundaries, then you'd be likely to warn your young'ns to never go there. Of course, if you tell those young'ns that they can't go there because our enemies are there, then you're basically daring them to go to prove their bravery. If, however, you tell them some mystical, giant, shape-shifting, uber-cunning monster/spirits live there, you might have some better luck keeping your kids closer to home.

I'm pretty sure this is why my parents took us to see "Boggy Creek" - so we wouldn't wander too far on our own in the woods. (My kids are easy - I just say "ticks" and you can't pay them enough to go there.)

[William Parcher]

I'm saying that legendary monsters usually originate from real things.

The random Bigfooter in Oklahoma who says he watched a Bigfoot and that there is no way that he was mistaken or hoaxed. What "real thing" is his monster originated from?

[parnassus]

Leeches ("bloodsuckers") are a good deterrent to would-be swimmers.


Seriously, story telling is a whole thread or forum section in itself. War stories, fish stories, Hoosier daddy, dog ate my homework, "telephone," not to mention translation issues. Oh and tribal people didn't have eyeglasses, not to mention cameras, note pads or embedded reporters.

[William Parcher]

. . . And if the risk of abduction was higher in certain areas of "no man's land" between tribal boundaries, then you'd be likely to warn your young'ns to never go there. Of course, if you tell those young'ns that they can't go there because our enemies are there, then you're basically daring them to go to prove their bravery. If, however, you tell them some mystical, giant, shape-shifting, uber-cunning monster/spirits live there, you might have some better luck keeping your kids closer to home.

I'm pretty sure this is why my parents took us to see "Boggy Creek" - so we wouldn't wander too far on our own in the woods. (My kids are easy - I just say "ticks" and you can't pay them enough to go there.)

Why not tell your kids that they will be eaten by a bear, cougar, lion, wolf or smilodon?

[parnassus]

The random Bigfooter in Oklahoma who says he watched a Bigfoot and that there is no way that he was mistaken or hoaxed. What "real thing" is his monster originated from?

Whoa, we were talking about the origins of Native American legends. The "knower" in OK is a misidentifier, a hoaxer or a hallucinator. He likely got the idea from Patterson, not from the PNW tribal legends.

[Blackdog]

Why not tell your kids that they will be eaten by a bear, cougar, lion, wolf or smilodon?
For the same reasons he listed as a known enemy. The unknown enemy is always more frightening than the known.
After all, those animals you listed were all defeated by humans, the boogyman never has been without supernatural effort, abilities and intervention.

[William Parcher]

Whoa, we were talking about the origins of Native American legends. The "knower" in OK is a misidentifier, a hoaxer or a hallucinator. He likely got the idea from Patterson, not from the PNW tribal legends.


I understand but I'm trying to put it into perspective for the NA. We don't really know how many Salish claimed to see Sésquac when they were out and about.

A fella comes running into camp. I just saw Sésquac over by the lake! Were there any Sésquac skeptics in the tribe? Did they suggest that he had a misidentification, hallucinated or was just telling a lie? Did any Salish ask for proof of the existence of Sésquac? Did they all just believe? Did they even have a concept of something that can be talked about but does not exist at all?

[parnassus]

A PNW tribe of short hairless people is attacked by a wandering tribe from the Plains whose men are taller and hairier. The Plains tribe comes out of the forest at night while most of the men are away hunting seals and attacks the village, and wins because they are bigger and stronger and better fighters; and they take women. Only a few survivors tell the tale and the stories conflict. But they all agree that the attackers were not of The People ie not us. The attackers never return. Over 16 generations the story becomes slightly distorted. Now the attackers were very big and very hairy and not people.
Now some Strain type comes to the tribe and says, "hey, bigfoot exists; you got any giant hair covered forest beast legends?"


"DO WE EVER !!??!"

[LTC8K6]

The hairless tribes never won any of the fights?

[parnassus]

Back on topic, Ketchum herself showed up to call Stubstad a liar.
http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/6177-interview-with-richard-stubstad-are-bigfoots-human/page__st__600

[Deacondark]

Exactly Parnassas. Native American lore is full of stories that cannot possibly be completely true. They are exaggerations and fabrications designed to teach lessons. Stories of snakes marrying Badgers. Wolves turning into men and marrying women. All kinds of things. Native lore cannot be taken in a literal sense.

[Deacondark]

"Parnassus" My bad.

[parnassus]

There seems to be some feeling amongst the footers (http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/6797-any-revenge-from-the-sierra-kills/) that Bigfoot may seek retribution for the killing of a mother and young squatch (which resulted in a tissue specimen being sent to Ketchum for DNA). So all of us in Northern California better take bigfoot repellent into the woods with us. (Of course, I wouldn't be without it; have carried it for 40 years and it works perfectly. Canon is the brand name; various models.)

[Deacondark]

I can 100% guarantee that there will be no bigfoot retaliation. I read that link, and can't believe they are seriously entertaining that thought.

[parnassus]

I can 100% guarantee that there will be no bigfoot retaliation. I read that link, and can't believe they are seriously entertaining that thought.

You can't?

[HarryHenderson]

...and can't believe they are seriously entertaining that thought.
The fact we, supposed 'smart people' here at the JREF, have 'seriously entertained the thought' of writing more than one or two words addressing this 'Bigfoot DNA' aspect - as if it deserves even one or two words - is what I can't believe. Sadly, this is the type of inane JREF thread (and there are many) where one proves they have way too much free time on their hands.

[atpeace]

The fact we, supposed 'smart people' here at the JREF, have 'seriously entertained the thought' of writing more than one or two words addressing this 'Bigfoot DNA' aspect - as if it deserves even one or two words - is what I can't believe. Sadly, this is the type of inane JREF thread (and there are many) where one proves they have way too much free time on their hands.

Would they have had to have mapped bigfoot genome to make the statements they are making? DNA shows bf is "between humans and chimps" etc How long would that take and how much DNA?

NA legends and big hairy ape abductors: Maybe like the Egyptians who never "lost" a battle, is it also possible that NA males would rather have lost their women and children to "monsters-men" than mere men?

[parnassus]

Would they have had to have mapped bigfoot genome to make the statements they are making? DNA shows bf is "between humans and chimps" etc How long would that take and how much DNA?

No; a moment; and none.

In other words, it's a lie.

[atpeace]

No; a moment; and none.

In other words, it's a lie.

Of course it's a lie, I never thought otherwise.

But I wondered just how ludicrous a theory it was, (besides the obvious fact of bf's nonexistence). I was trying to figure out how you get "halfway" between humans and chimps". If a humans and chimps genome are the same except for x < 4% Bf would be x amount of that x<4% therefore they would have had to have mapped a lot of DNA?

[GT/CS]

If you're going to use math regarding bigfoot issues you will probably first need to study up on 'Bigfoot Math' which is a specialized part of 'Bigfoot Science'.

[RioBravo]

No; a moment; and none.

In other words, it's a lie.

You know this how?

[atpeace]

If you're going to use math regarding bigfoot issues you will probably first need to study up on 'Bigfoot Math' which is a specialized part of 'Bigfoot Science'.

Yes, every JREF BF thread has one obvious twist, a nonexistent subject that should end all threads, but I just wondered exactly what the "halfway" DNA claim would mean had they really had DNA. Is it as simple as saying "we drew this conclusion overnight with our brand new shiny DNA evidence"?
Suspension of disbelief is definitely required to answer my question but that is not unusual in bf discussions in relating bf "science" and "math" to real science and math and psychology and anthropology and....:) "Oh, what a tangled web [they] weave..."

[Deacondark]

You can't?

OK, I can believe it. But I wish I didn't. It never ceases to amaze me what these guys will come up with.

[Deacondark]

The fact we, supposed 'smart people' here at the JREF, have 'seriously entertained the thought' of writing more than one or two words addressing this 'Bigfoot DNA' aspect - as if it deserves even one or two words - is what I can't believe. Sadly, this is the type of inane JREF thread (and there are many) where one proves they have way too much free time on their hands.


I hear ya'. I've always been interested in Bigfoot. As a child I was a believer, now I'm a non-believer. The subject, however is still compelling. Mostly the human aspect: what makes people believe? Why? Why do they so need this hairy forest dweller to exist, to the point of believing the unbelievable, and even fabricating evidence? I have a feeling I'll never have answers. But, I'm a musician, so I've got loads of free time on my hands.

[parnassus]

You know this how?

That's my opinion. What's your opinion of the likelihood of it being the truth? That Human mtDNA didn't come from a human? That it came from a stable, fertile, robust hybrid of modern humans and something like a chimp, that human women are being held in Bigfoot clans, that they never escape, that they birth Bigfoots; that this source is reliable, that there even is a creature at all, that it possesses abilities beyond what could considered natural for a primate, that there is no tangible evidence for a real animal of such characteristics....

What is your opinion? That it "might" be true? All of it? Like, the Pope is going to ring your doorbell in the next 30 seconds and give you all the assets of the Catholic Church?
If I were you I wouldn't put off my golf game. Call me closed- minded.

[Drewbot]

What a simple, poorly thought-through idea.
Here we have Bigfoot DNA that is manifestly Human, yet we have a creature with a flexible midfoot, gigantic, covered with hair, without apparent tool-use abilities.
What's more, the creatures have been stealing human women, raping them, raising the children as their own.
The humans never hunted down these monsters? never spitted their heads and displayed them on the way to their villages? never locked them up? never gathered a lynch mob and rounded up the lot of them? (a la Frankenstein)

[parnassus]

What a simple, poorly thought-through idea.
Here we have Bigfoot DNA that is manifestly Human, yet we have a creature with a flexible midfoot, gigantic, covered with hair, without apparent tool-use abilities.
What's more, the creatures have been stealing human women, raping them, raising the children as their own.
The humans never hunted down these monsters? never spitted their heads and displayed them on the way to their villages? never locked them up? never gathered a lynch mob and rounded up the lot of them? (a la Frankenstein)
Maybe if BF abducts a scientist's daughter....

[atpeace]

What a simple, poorly thought-through idea.
Here we have Bigfoot DNA that is manifestly Human, yet we have a creature with a flexible midfoot, gigantic, covered with hair, without apparent tool-use abilities.
What's more, the creatures have been stealing human women, raping them, raising the children as their own.
The humans never hunted down these monsters? never spitted their heads and displayed them on the way to their villages? never locked them up? never gathered a lynch mob and rounded up the lot of them? (a la Frankenstein)

I figure these early people just made impressionist drawings of them, howled, banged a tree or two and moved on. Apparently, we never learn.

[Drewbot]

I figure these early people just made impressionist drawings of them, howled, banged a tree or two and moved on. Apparently, we never learn.

Maybe the early humans felt sorry for the Bigfoots. After all, they have all of this muscle and grace, and have TERRIBLE aiming skills. I mean, those rocks never hit anybody.

Grug: LOOKOUT THORG! The Bigfoot is throwing rocks!!
Thorg: Yes, try and act frightened, he's got such atrocious aim, I kind of feel bad for the fellow.
Grug: <Hits the dirt> WHOA THAT WAS CLOSE! (The Rock lands woefully short)
Thorg: <Nudges Grug> Maybe they're just trying to WARN us! <Snicker>

[Deacondark]

Here is an article http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/erickson-project-news-5/ on Cryptomundo that shows that the BBB gives Melba Ketchum's DNA Diagnostic business an "F" rating. There is even a list of complaints, a few of which show that she gave results that were not possible for the type of animal she was testing.

[parnassus]

Maybe the early humans felt sorry for the Bigfoots. After all, they have all of this muscle and grace, and have TERRIBLE aiming skills. I mean, those rocks never hit anybody.

Grug: LOOKOUT THORG! The Bigfoot is throwing rocks!!
Thorg: Yes, try and act frightened, he's got such atrocious aim, I kind of feel bad for the fellow.
Grug: <Hits the dirt> WHOA THAT WAS CLOSE! (The Rock lands woefully short)
Thorg: <Nudges Grug> Maybe they're just trying to WARN us! <Snicker>

/wants Steve Martin to play Thorg

[parnassus]

Here is an article http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/erickson-project-news-5/ on Cryptomundo that shows that the BBB gives Melba Ketchum's DNA Diagnostic business an "F" rating. There is even a list of complaints, a few of which show that she gave results that were not possible for the type of animal she was testing.

Getting a complaint and dealing with it in a reasonable way and time frame is part of running a business in an ethical and successful way. 19 complaints to the BBB in two years. That's a lot. In most places the BBB is sort of a sham, such that many people never think of contacting them. So I would guess there are a lot more dissatisfied/defrauded customers who just threw up their hands.

One poster at Cryptomundo offered the "Oh, but Melba is so busy finding bigfoot DNA...." excuse.....sort of like Roger Patterson who never could get around to sending out his newsletter but kept the Boy Scouts' money anyway, at that of those who were stupid enough to send cash. Since Patterson had no bank account and everyone knew what he was up to, he couldn't cash checks. And soon someone will undoubtedly post the "even a hoaxer like Patterson/Ketchum can get lucky" mime.

[The Shrike]

Well, you know Parnassus, even a hoaxer like Ketchum can get lucky and have real bigfoot DNA. You gotta think about that.

[parnassus]

Well, you know Parnassus, even a hoaxer like Ketchum can get lucky and have real bigfoot DNA. You gotta think about that.

Too late:


"... BBB has nothing to do with the science of genetics, but rather the business end of the operation. DNA Diagnostics appears to have a slight problem getting it's work out on schedule (which conforms quite handily with the timeline on this project unfortunately).

NOTHING has been demonstrated to show that their DNA analyses are of poor quality, or that Dr Ketchum's credentials in DNA analysis are in question."

(None of which is true, by the way.)

[Deacondark]

Actually, at least two of her complaints stated that the results obtained were impossible from the samples given. One said that, given the colors and markings of the cats the DNA was from there was no way they got the right results back, and that they had to have gotten samples mixed up. Not sure how far I'd trust her "lab".

[Volsquatch]

Deleted per request

[LTC8K6]

Why, you could have gotten the samples from a board with screws in it that had been sitting outside in the weather for months...

Oh wait...

[mustbeso]

There is a wealth of (dis)information on Robert Lindsay's blog concerning the shooting of two bigfoots in California. He roams from a government conspiracy to cover up bigfoot to black helicopters taking away the remains, yet in another post says that it was really two bears that were shot. There are several posts on his blog too numerous to link but just a hoot to read through. This is Creekfreak stuff all over again:rolleyes:

[parnassus]

There is a wealth of (dis)information on Robert Lindsay's blog concerning the shooting of two bigfoots in California. He roams from a government conspiracy to cover up bigfoot to black helicopters taking away the remains, yet in another post says that it was really two bears that were shot. There are several posts on his blog too numerous to link but just a hoot to read through. This is Creekfreak stuff all over again:rolleyes:

The sad thing is that Dfoot is putting his reputation* on the line over this insane story, yet he really can't verify it. He is just swallowing the whole story as it was told to him.
* Well, I mean, his reputation among the footers.

[Drewbot]

wait, how is Dfoot involved? i missed that part.

[parnassus]

He is in the Olympic Project footer group, who are apparently putting out a lot of trailcams. He was contacted by one of the parties to the purported shootings and believes their story to be true. He seems to have advised these guys about what to do. Basically he seems to be vouching for them, but that's not his biggest problem. Being associated with killing a Bigfoot (I know...) is a mortal sin to many of the "heavily committed" bleevers....I seriously would not like to be in his shoes.

[William Parcher]

He is in the Olympic Project footer group, who are apparently putting out a lot of trailcams.

Parn, you are going to cause a lot of confusion if you use the name Dfoot (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4283371&postcount=551) (Jeff Pruitt) instead of Derekfoot (http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/7090-more-on-sierra-kills/page__view__findpost__p__80933) (Derek Randles).

[Deacondark]

Reading through this it's painfully obvious that every bit of "evidence" is a "so and so claims" type of deal. I wonder how long before it all blows up in their faces?

[parnassus]

My bad.

[parnassus]

It is now being reported that Dr. Ketchum is saying her paper may not be published until year end "and there is something to it...."

That should certainly reassure the Better Business Bureau.

[Deacondark]

How long can they keep pushing this thing back? I'm willing to bet the paper ends with the word "Inconclusive"

[mustbeso]

I doubt that anything will ever be published. It seems that most of the people involved in this are folding their collective tents. Even Robert Lindsay has gone strangely silent of late which makes me wonder if he has had an attack of sanity regarding the 'two dead bigfoots' and the bigfoot "steak" sent to Ketchum.

[Tontar]

Well, at least we've been assured that it's a extremely professional research team! Looks like the results will hold up to the most rigorous scrutiny.

"Because of the apparently very high quality of the ongoing research efforts over several years, no information has 'leaked' into the public sphere to date. This speaks well for the professionalism and dedication of all of the individuals on Ed Smith's various research teams; covering up to 5 different locations, mostly in Oklahoma.

Because they have kept a tight rein on things the mainstream media has been kept entirely out of the loop - exactly where it should be - until all documentation and experimental repetition has been achieved and concluded.

What I can say is that their intention is to temporarily capture a juvenile BF for the purpose of filming the team of credentialed scientists as they take blood, tissue and hair samples for testing; after which the individual will be immediately released, unharmed, back into his own original territory. This will facilitate the scientific identification of the species once and for all. We all wait with 'bated breath."

Capturing a juvenile means that it will be small enough to fit normal human proportions, as in it will be easy to put a person in a suit and pull off an alien autopsy sort of video. Question the authenticity of the video, ask where the body is, well, they let it go.

[HarryHenderson]

It is now being reported that Dr. Ketchum is saying her paper may not be published until year end "and there is something to it...."

That should certainly reassure the Better Business Bureau.

:D Comedy!!

[ReverendClog]

I would greatly appreciate that readers of the following post understand that it was made in a humourous spirit and intends no offence to any person.


This DNA business can't end well for the protagonists of a 'real' Bigfoot, and while I have found several, (if not most), of those nice people on the BFF to be decent, albeit misguided folk, some of them are unmitigated fruitloops.
I do love the idea of Bigfoot, and from the first moment I saw the PGF as a child I wanted it to be real, but Bigfoot, like the tooth fairy and the Queen Mothers wooden teeth, always disappoint when common sense is applied.

Far more eloquent and knowledgeable people have discounted and recounted Bigfoot and its contradictory nature - from the elusive hairy man to the scientific contradictions of North Americas largest and most wide-spread unfound primate, the supernatural vanishing, eye-shining, bullet-proof, swamp dwelling, coastal, inland, temperate, cold weather, shy, gregarious and habituated, gentle and overtly aggressive Bigfoot.

I love Bigfoot and more specifically, I love the idea of 'super' big foot and I wonder if that is the attraction that the myth has for those who wish to believe at any cost. To these folk Bigfoot is an idealised 'superman', the archetypal obermensch, free from human morality and superior by virtue of his strength and improved 'animal cunning', all natural virtues which modern 'city folk' have lost.
After all one of the most common refutations from the Bigfoot crowd is, 'you don't know the land, man, natives have seen him and you won't 'cos they can smell that you are a fed/shill/forestry commission agent, etc.

Is Bigfoot behind the 'freeman on the land movement' ?, and is the Bigfoot movement racist?. Do we know of any instances where people of African-American ancestry have had sightings?. Is it racist to ask?.

The above seems oddly valid to me, for in my ignorance, I know of no sightings of Bigfoot that are testified to by African-Americans, so is Bigfoot a construct of the European, 'jungles and forests are home to devilish creatures', (a mindset that I doubt existed until the industrialised age, when people where turning away from the pioneer mindset and from being in a 'natural' habitat - the 'wild' became a place of caution and fear, rather than and environment in which man had and is supreme, from the invention of the spear, (100,000 bc ?), onwards.

I know that the above is full of gaps, from Gimlin to Marx, but I think it is time to give up on Bigfoot.

Goodbye Biggie, and thanks for all the shills.

[William Parcher]

Is Bigfoot behind the 'freeman on the land movement' ?, and is the Bigfoot movement racist?. Do we know of any instances where people of African-American ancestry have had sightings?. Is it racist to ask?.

The above seems oddly valid to me, for in my ignorance, I know of no sightings of Bigfoot that are testified to by African-Americans, so is Bigfoot a construct of the European, 'jungles and forests are home to devilish creatures', (a mindset that I doubt existed until the industrialised age, when people where turning away from the pioneer mindset and from being in a 'natural' habitat - the 'wild' became a place of caution and fear, rather than and environment in which man had and is supreme, from the invention of the spear, (100,000 bc ?), onwards.


There are very few AAs involved in Bigfootery or who claim encounters. It is very disproportionate compared to the population in general. It seems to be an intrigue/pastime of "white folks" more than anybody else. Within that group there also seems to be an overrepresentation of fundamentally religious (evangelical) people. That's my observation but others have said the same.

[ReverendClog]

Thanks William Parcher, I have wondered. Do you think it is worth raising as an issue over at the BFF, ".

I did not know that it had been commented on before, are you able to indulge me and provide a link or direction to such. It is okay if not I understand and very much respect you.

[William Parcher]

It has come up on occasion here and on the old BFF. I doubt that they would object if you start a thread on the topic.

The old and new BFF forbid the discussion of religion and politics. This has a lot to do with there being many Bigfooters who are quick to argue for creationism. Yeah, it has a disproportionate number who are fundamental religious and also Republican/Conservative politics.

[ReverendClog]

Is it possible that Bigfoot is a phantasm of politics, rather like the 'ubermensch' of Nazi politics?. I ask because I am a relative virgin with regards to Bigfoot politics.

[William Parcher]

I don't know. About the only explanation you'll get from a believer is that they believe (or know) because it's out there (not in their heads).

Bigfoot is a cultish folk tale. You know, we're getting off topic for this thread. There are other threads that would be better for this talk.

[William Parcher]

Some sociologists recently checked out Bigfootery...

Here. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6065079&postcount=2543)

In general, the devoted Bigfoot researcher is male, college educated, above average income, and politically and religiously conservative. Lots of evangelical religious into Bigfoot.


And here. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6503266&postcount=3291)

Bigfoot hunters were perhaps the most surprising group, (Christopher) Bader said. They defied all stereotypes of paranormal pursuers who wear flowing clothes and commune with spirits.

Instead, they were very serious, extremely conventional and often highly professional. In fact, their beliefs contradicted their lifestyles so much that many of them were plagued by anxiety, which drove them even further to stick to their beliefs.

"Their friends and family consider them kooky," Bader said. "Everyone is saying they're nuts. So, they have a real aggressive style and seriousness of purpose. They want to prove everyone wrong."

For one hunter, the search began one day when he was out in the woods and, he swears, he saw Bigfoot cross his path.

"Imagine the stress that would put on your life," Bader said. "You consider yourself a normal, smart guy, and you think you just saw a giant monkey walk in front of you. Now, you have to fit that into your life."

"These are not people trying to explain a crazy world," he added. "They are trying to prove to themselves that they aren't crazy."

[John Albert]

The old and new BFF forbid the discussion of religion and politics. This has a lot to do with there being many Bigfooters who are quick to argue for creationism. Yeah, it has a disproportionate number who are fundamental religious and also Republican/Conservative politics.


Maybe I'll make up some "I believe in Bigfoot and I vote" bumperstickers to hawk on the BFF.

[AlaskaBushPilot]

"They are trying to prove to themselves that they aren't crazy."

Which is interesting because an illusion, being a hoax victim, a subliminal suggestion, or any other explanation is possible for the brain seeing a bigfoot that is not there.

You aren't crazy for seeing it. So this neurosis being described is of their own doing. What's the big deal admitting an illusion, hoax, suggestion, etc is possible?

[Drewbot]

Seeing Bigfoot doesn't make them crazy, thinking that other people will think they are crazy, makes them crazy.

[parnassus]

Dynamic Duo Decide to Disclose Details of DNA

David Paulides and Melba Ketchum are on the sched for a footer hoohrah in Honobia OK on Oct 1. They did not make a joint announcement and they are not together on the program. Long/short: I'm guessing Dr. Ketchum is pulling out of the Bigfoot ballyhoo business while she still has a barely viable reputation as a vet/forensic lab, leaving Paulides (and Erickson et al) to try and convince the world that human DNA came from a Bigfoot.
I could be wrong. She is on the proverbial tiger's back... Jumping off may be more dangerous than staying on...

[William Parcher]

Why would she go to a Bigfoot conference to announce that "this DNA stuff isn't Bigfoot and I'm outta here"... instead of just simply saying that to a few different people and maybe also posting it with her BFF account?

[LTC8K6]

Why would she go just to announce that it's 100% human, or that it's inconclusive, or that it's cow?

None of those is going to go over well...Patty certainly couldn't be 100% human, unless she was BH...

[William Parcher]

Conference organizers know in advance what the speaker topic is going to be about. If her talk is a personal bail-out or total collapse of the project (her saying it isn't Bigfoot), then a lot of attendees are going to be angry with the organizers for not warning them.

[LTC8K6]

My money is on the 100% human announcement and then ROFL type ridicule...

They all call out "I am bigfoot!"

[River]

My money is on the 100% human announcement and then ROFL type ridicule...

They all call out "I am bigfoot!"

Funny enough, that is close to the truth. It is those enthusiasts that often "find" or create bigfoot evidence.

[Deacondark]

All of the stalling and shell game stuff just reeks of people trying to find a way out of their claims. The so called "bigfoot toenail" picture has caused Erickson to send nasty threats to several websites, demanding that they remove it from their page. On page even replaced it with their own artists rendering, and The EP demanded that they remove that too.

[parnassus]

WP
I have been to a bigfoot conference and i seriously doubt that speakers submitted their content in advance. Maybe not even a meaningful title if the speaker is known.

I can't imagine she will be a viable forensic lab or witness if she pursues this much longer. Word gets around very quickly in the legal community. All it takes is one probing cross examination and her forensic business is caput.

What would be your guess on what she's gonna say?

[GT/CS]

Regarding letting the organizers know the details of the speakers' material, the Henner orgy fiasco comes to mind.





That should make for some interesting Google hits!

[William Parcher]

What would be your guess on what she's gonna do?


"We've got the DNA profile for Bigfoot and we're working on getting it published in a journal."

[William Parcher]

I can't imagine she will be a viable forensic lab or witness if she pursues this much longer. Word gets around very quickly in the legal community. All it takes is one probing cross examination and her forensic business is caput.

It's already too late now. Try putting her name into a Google search and see what you see. Bigfoot. Bigfoot. Bigfoot. The Scarlet Letter "B" is on her forehead.

[Deacondark]

What I find disturbing is that, if you look at this from the 'footer's point of veiw, they cant go wrong.

Say the DNA tests as "human" which is the rumors I keep hearing: In their mind they have no doubt that it came from a Bigfoot, so the "human" reading just makes them a relative of ours. They can't fathom the possibility that it came from a person. It's a sickness really.

[parnassus]

"We've got the DNA profile for Bigfoot and we're working on getting it published in a journal."

Well, that is sure the wrong way to get it published in a journal.

[William Parcher]

Well, that is sure the wrong way to get it published in a journal.


But couldn't that also be said about her October 2010 Internet radio show interview where she said that she has Bigfoot DNA for sure?

[RayG]

What would be your guess on what she's gonna say?


Stuff that's already been said in the past. Stuff like:

The initial series of tests haved proved inconclusive, but they are potentially very exciting and promising. (2008 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7525060.stm))

or

The DNA has proven impossible to identify, and I've never encountered any DNA that I couldn't identify before. (2001 (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_article.asp?id=248))

RayG

[William Parcher]

But she already said last year that this time the test is conclusive and it is Bigfoot.

[Deacondark]

Stuff that's already been said in the past. Stuff like:

The initial series of tests haved proved inconclusive, but they are potentially very exciting and promising. (2008 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7525060.stm))

or

The DNA has proven impossible to identify, and I've never encountered any DNA that I couldn't identify before. (2001 (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_article.asp?id=248))

RayG

I'm just wondering how long they think they can play this hand. Eventually someone is going to call them on this stuff, right? Or do they just ignore it when it happens?

[William Parcher]

I'm just wondering how long they think they can play this hand. Eventually someone is going to call them on this stuff, right? Or do they just ignore it when it happens?

She already publicly said last year that if her paper is rejected by scientific journals it is because of anti-Bigfoot bias not because she made any error(s).

[Deacondark]

She already publicly said last year that if her paper is rejected by scientific journals it is because of anti-Bigfoot bias not because she made any error(s).


It's never a good sign when someone sets up an "out" before the fact. Seems like she already knows they will be laughing at her.

"Footer Logic" strikes again.

[Drewbot]

'The findings are unlike any thing we've seen, however the Scientific Community has blackballed us and will not publish our findings. Until we publish we cannot give out any details about our findings'

[Deacondark]

'The findings are unlike any thing we've seen, however the Scientific Community has blackballed us and will not publish our findings. Until we publish we cannot give out any details about our findings'


"But keep sending those checks, so we can continue justifying your beliefs, er, continue our important research."

[parnassus]

But she already said last year that this time the test is conclusive and it is Bigfoot.

Well, I can't argue with that logic if that is a quote, though I do think this time it will hit the wire services, not fly under the radar.

[Deacondark]

A careful examination of Dr. Ketchums Facebook page reveals that she has a large interest in the "Twilight" Saga. Not much new info about Bigfoot DNA though.

[LTC8K6]

What I find disturbing is that, if you look at this from the 'footer's point of veiw, they cant go wrong.

Say the DNA tests as "human" which is the rumors I keep hearing: In their mind they have no doubt that it came from a Bigfoot, so the "human" reading just makes them a relative of ours. They can't fathom the possibility that it came from a person. It's a sickness really.

Having the DNA come back human wouldn't go well with a lot of the accepted info on sasquatch though. It clashes.

[Deacondark]

Having the DNA come back human wouldn't go well with a lot of the accepted info on sasquatch though. It clashes.

They'll find a way to justify it. Just wait.

[The Shrike]

I had "gershake" at the BFF tell me yesterday that the DNA analysis that Ketchum has done does not come back Homo sapiens. That gossip was apparently part of Robert Lindsay's operation obfuscation.

[LTC8K6]

Well, it's likely going to be something that they can use. So probably "unknown primate"?

They can't be going to all this trouble just to announce something that doesn't further the agenda.

Unless Biscardi is involved. Then it's liable to be announced as a human gorilla DNA mixture and for $19.99 we can log on and see the test results...

[LTC8K6]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4267018&postcount=1

[LTC8K6]

http://www.mid-americabigfoot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13789#p13789

[William Parcher]

Ed, by my calculations, you tested 2350 samples and got 236 matches. You are (in Randy's words) AWESOME. I am stunned. It is hard waiting, but it sounds like the results will be worth the effort.


He did 2,350 DNA tests? LOL. Ed Smith was banned by JREF for having 3 accounts simultaneously. I'd say that there is a good probability that the tests were forgeries. Fake tests. Ask to look behind the curtain and then he will probably let loose with his usual anti-skeptic rage.

[LTC8K6]

He did 2,350 DNA tests? LOL. Ed Smith was banned by JREF for having 3 accounts simultaneously. I'd say that there is a good probability that the tests were forgeries. Fake tests. Ask to look behind the curtain and then he will probably let loose with his usual anti-skeptic rage.

It's pretty strange. Even for a hoaxer.

Wonder what's going on?

The claim appeared not to even generate a wisp of suspicion, either.

[LTC8K6]

http://www.mid-americabigfoot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14764#p14764

We have retained the services of an in house geneticist to help with the expanding amount of data and the need to interpret the torrent correctly for the preparation of the paper. It is apparent at this point that the Human accelerated regions namely HAR1 and HACNS1 must be considered in our discussions of the this subject.

Straight out of a footer's wildest dreams...

[William Parcher]

It's pretty strange. Even for a hoaxer.

Smith is one of the strangest.


Wonder what's going on?

An adult role-playing game.


The claim appeared not to even generate a wisp of suspicion, either.

Rule 1: when attending a professional wrestling match do not scream out "This is all fake!"

[NavySEAL]

Rule 1: when attending a professional wrestling match do not scream out "This is all fake!"[/QUOTE]

Well said.
NS

[Deacondark]

http://www.mid-americabigfoot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13789#p13789


I'm not entirely sure I trust the DNA testing abilities of someone who cannot spell, punctuate, or use "Their, they're or there" properly.

[GT/CS]

Many footers have learned that as long as they don't show clear photos (Georgia Boyz) they can tell any outrageous lies they want and the lies will be accepted by their group.

[LTC8K6]

I'm not entirely sure I trust the DNA testing abilities of someone who cannot spell, punctuate, or use "Their, they're or there" properly.

Well, this is the testing being done by Melba Ketchum, isn't it?

That's the thread title.

Of course, Ed may be concocting the whole story...

[LTC8K6]

Smith is one of the strangest.




An adult role-playing game.




Rule 1: when attending a professional wrestling match do not scream out "This is all fake!"

I considered the possibility that the post giving the 2,350 figure may itself have been a little jab...but I don't think so.

[Deacondark]

Well, this is the testing being done by Melba Ketchum, isn't it?

That's the thread title.

Of course, Ed may be concocting the whole story...

He has to be. I'm sure Melba would have shut him down if he were releasing real information.

[William Parcher]

Well, this is the testing being done by Melba Ketchum, isn't it?

That's the thread title.

Of course, Ed may be concocting the whole story...


He's not part of the Ketchum Project. This is his own thing. I think he calls it the Horizon Project. Read a bit about it here on BFF (http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/5401-ed-smith-and-the-oklahoma-documentary/). He talks about his posse called the Original-6 or Orig-6. Supposed to be six Bigfooter guys from Oklahoma. I'm pretty sure it's a fictitious group with Ed Smith pretending that there are five others.

He's a hardcore nutjob and he has sockpuppets on the BFF just like he had here.

[Deacondark]

He's not part of the Ketchum Project. This is his own thing. I think he calls it the Horizon Project. Read a bit about it here on BFF (http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/5401-ed-smith-and-the-oklahoma-documentary/). He talks about his posse called the Original-6 or Orig-6. Supposed to be six Bigfooter guys from Oklahoma. I'm pretty sure it's a fictitious group with Ed Smith pretending that there are five others.

He's a hardcore nutjob and he has sockpuppets on the BFF just like he had here.

Interesting read. Sounds like another hoaxer to me.

[LTC8K6]

He's not part of the Ketchum Project. This is his own thing. I think he calls it the Horizon Project. Read a bit about it here on BFF (http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/topic/5401-ed-smith-and-the-oklahoma-documentary/). He talks about his posse called the Original-6 or Orig-6. Supposed to be six Bigfooter guys from Oklahoma. I'm pretty sure it's a fictitious group with Ed Smith pretending that there are five others.

He's a hardcore nutjob and he has sockpuppets on the BFF just like he had here.

I've seen that thread.

[L.Y.S.]

It'd be cool to have some bigfoot friends though. Especially if they looked like those thingies off of Dragon Ball Z, Oozarus me thinks.

[LTC8K6]

Ben Schneider, a 1996 IUS alumnus, asked about how the Bigfoot freezer hoax affected studies where real evidence had been found. Meldrum said it made a mockery of their efforts.

When asked about his personal beliefs, he said if he had doubts, his career would have been different.

“Of course I’m personally convinced,” he said. “I think what were looking at is many branches of hominids. Rather than assuming they all went extinct some persistent branches exist today in remote areas.”

Meldrum has interesting thoughts...wonder what he'll make of these DNA reports?

Also, I didn't realize Meldrum had met Patterson.

http://iushorizon.com/2011/02/professor-takes-stand-for-bigfoot/

[The Shrike]

OK, which one of you Skoftics is behind the cyber attack that's shut down the BFF?

[Correa Neto]

We used an EMP weapon shot from one of our stealth fighters. Nasty stuff. Can even erase DVDs. Ask Historian.

[LTC8K6]

The BFF was getting too close...

[The Shrike]

Well we have to fix it. Mulder hasn't insulted me in a few hours now, and I'm sliding toward withdrawal.

[Correa Neto]

Didn't you get the memo?

Some of our agents work udercover, pretending to be one of their crowd. They impersonate wild loons to discredit bigfoot research, so our sponsors can keep going with their loggin and mining stuff, the public remains ignorant and the secrets about the species which could debunk evolution is kept hidden.

Don't be too tough on him, OK?

[LTC8K6]

They impersonate wild loons to discredit bigfoot research

Why, just last night I was out howling back at footers...in the deep dark woods...at least 15 feet from the highway. I was carrying 2 bags of concrete and wearing alderfeet too...you shoulda' been there.

The back pain gave the howls authenticity...

[parnassus]

Paulides again and more explicitly says the "Bigfoot" DNA is human and Native American.
http://rwridley.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/the-nabs-role-in-the-ongoing-sasquatch-dna-study/
I think a few of the footers may begin to wise up. But cult behavior theory would predict that the majority will find a way to buy into the new information; controversy may occur but breakaway groups will probably not form, since, in the past, there has not been any requirement of strict adherence to a single dogma.

[The Shrike]

I found this comment rather prescient:

"Comment by R.W. Ridley on August 20, 2011 9:04 pm

Yeah, as I indicated in the post, I think it’s weeks away as opposed to months.

I think the entire BF community is about to pop. If this turns out to be nothing, Prozac sales will go through the roof."

[William Parcher]

"Bigfoot" DNA is human and Native American.


That means that Bigfoot has human rights but is also subject to local and Federal laws. Bigfoot can actually be arrested for trespassing, illegal squatting/homesteading, harassment, public disturbances, etc.

Maybe one indication of acceptance of the "Paulides theory" is that Bigfooters stop calling them Bigfoot or Sasquatch and convert to calling them "people". This one just happens to be covered in hair from head to toe and might have really big feet. The names Bigfoot and Sasquatch may now be racist like "slant-eyes" and "redskins". You just have to start calling them Native Americans.

If you see one on your land you can call the police and say that a Native American is trespassing and you want an investigation with arrest. Wood knocking and loud vocalizations are disturbing the peace. Throwing stones is now illegal for them to do. It isn't Bigfoot committing these illegal acts; it's simply a person breaking the law.

[RioBravo]

Paulides again and more explicitly says the "Bigfoot" DNA is human and Native American.
http://rwridley.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/the-nabs-role-in-the-ongoing-sasquatch-dna-study/
I think a few of the footers may begin to wise up. But cult behavior theory would predict that the majority will find a way to buy into the new information; controversy may occur but breakaway groups will probably not form, since, in the past, there has not been any requirement of strict adherence to a single dogma.
Paulides is guessing as much as anyone else.

He's likely trying to bolster sales of his books which espouse the bigfoot-as-lost-tribe theory.

[John Albert]

How was this alleged DNA obtained?

[LTC8K6]

Yes, how did they get DNA/bones/body parts from a human/native American?

Did they shoot these humans/native Americans?

[John Albert]

Yes, how did they get DNA/bones/body parts from a human/native American?

Did they shoot these humans/native Americans?


That's what I wanna know.

[ScannerHead]

go to the bff and read all about it. it's called something about "the sierra kills" or shootings. some guy claims he shot 2 and cut part of a thigh out of the big one and some other stuff.

[John Albert]

go to the bff and read all about it. it's called something about "the sierra kills" or shootings. some guy claims he shot 2 and cut part of a thigh out of the big one and some other stuff.


So then why doesn't he just produce the entire bodies, instead of just some bull ****?

[Deacondark]

So then why doesn't he just produce the entire bodies, instead of just some bull ****?

Exactly.

If they do come out and say they have Bigfoot DNA, and offer a study for analysis, the entire scientific community will issue a "Put up or shut up" notice. They'll have to come up with more than just some tiny samples.

[LTC8K6]

If you shot a creature with human/nA DNA, didn't you commit murder?

[River]

If you shot a creature with human/nA DNA, didn't you commit murder?

You're reading wayyy to much into this. You know as well as I do there is no body. This is all part of the game to generate interest and dollars, and good ole legend fun.


:D

[LTC8K6]

You're reading wayyy to much into this. You know as well as I do there is no body. This is all part of the game to generate interest and dollars, and good ole legend fun.


:D

You are actually reading way too much into my posts. I know what I'm doing. :D

[Deacondark]

You're reading wayyy to much into this. You know as well as I do there is no body. This is all part of the game to generate interest and dollars, and good ole legend fun.


:D

Of course there is no body. It just blows my mind that people think there is. Whats going on right now is a bunch of people trying to figure out how to handle a tall tale that's gotten way out of hand.

[William Parcher]

It just blows my mind that people think there is.

It shouldn't surprise you. They apparently believe in Bigfoot and also that somebody could shoot one. There are also those who believe the Albert Ostman story. They believe in Bigfoot and also believe that a Bigfoot could abduct a person.

Underlying this is their belief that at least some Bigfoot storytellers are telling the truth.

[John Albert]

It shouldn't surprise you. They apparently believe in Bigfoot and also that somebody could shoot one. There are also those who believe the Albert Ostman story. They believe in Bigfoot and also believe that a Bigfoot could abduct a person.

Underlying this is their belief that at least some Bigfoot storytellers are telling the truth.


At least a few of them are apparently willing to believe even weirder stuff...

http://oi56.tinypic.com/awvv2x.jpg (http://www.published.com/b-I-Was-A-Sasquatch-Sex-Slave_1738.aspx)

[parnassus]

Paulides apparently went into Hoopa and other NA communities and offered payments to tribal members who would describe Bigfoot to his forensic artist. I won't say that the money was an inducement to make up stories, but some have commented on the resemblance of the sketches to Paulides himself.
What does one suppose would then happen when the white guy with the money says he will pay even more money to anyone who brings in hair or any part of a Bigfoot?
Of course, the specimens will come, and the bearers will manage to keep a straight face.

[mustbeso]

I don't know how many of you are keeping up with the 'Sierra kills' storyline via Robert Lindsay, but it gets wierder by the day. If you read between the lines it seems some of the parties are trying to get out from under this fiasco while the true believers lap up everything. I don't know if Richard Stubstad is a complete stooge or complicit in this nonsense but he is posting many strange things on Robert Lindsay's blog. There are at least three different scenarios involving the killing of two bigfoots and the sending of a "bigfoot steak" carved from one of the dead critters to Melba Ketchum or perhaps someone else? That nobody bothered to take a picture of the corpses and that there is no provenance, no chain of evidence whatsoever bothers none of them one little bit. It seems the deeper this gets the more impossible it will be for most of them to save face and that should be high drama in the end.

[Deacondark]

It seems the deeper this gets the more impossible it will be for most of them to save face and that should be high drama in the end.

And I for one can't wait! It's going to get good folks. This will make the Georgia Bigfoot fiasco look like child's play!

[LTC8K6]

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/mike-rigg-on-the-sierra-kills/

[John Albert]

These bigfoot doofuses are nothing but a bunch of scammers after a quick buck.

There's no evidence, just some scraps of hair that's obviously human. There's no way this can ever top the guys in Georgia a few years back with the ice-frozen Bigfoot corpse.

[Deacondark]

These bigfoot doofuses are nothing but a bunch of scammers after a quick buck.

There's no evidence, just some scraps of hair that's obviously human. There's no way this can ever top the guys in Georgia a few years back with the ice-frozen Bigfoot corpse.

I think the fallout will exceed the Georgia hoax. This has been building up for years, and a lot more people have their reputations at stake in this. Georgia was just Biscardi, and his reputation is, well, less than stellar anyway.

[John Albert]

I think the fallout will exceed the Georgia hoax. This has been building up for years, and a lot more people have their reputations at stake in this. Georgia was just Biscardi, and his reputation is, well, less than stellar anyway.


It's always good fun when Bigfoot hoaxes are debunked. But what made the 2008 story especially hilarious was the way it unfolded in the media. By the time they thawed it out and the press started having a field day with the fact it was a cheapass store-bought gorilla costume, the two Georgia guys (one of whom was a cop) had already absconded with the investors' cash, forestalling the inevitable day of reckoning and drawing out the drama.

Whatever happens behind this might prove more devastating for the BF-hunters' community, but I doubt it will pack the same dramatic impact for the average, casual viewers at home.