Muslim symbols next to Christmas Trees and Hannukah Menorahs

[Thunder]

Christmas and Hannukah very often fall during the same time period. Many communities have both Christian and Jewish residents. This is why, in my mind, it is fair and prudent to have both Christian and Jewish holiday symbols around this time.

But, is there a Muslim holiday at the end of December? And if not, then why do we feel the need to put up a Crescent? Is it simply to make Muslims feel better?

Im all about making all faiths and peoples feel welcome in our country. but there is no reason to succomb to sillyness.

It is silly to put up a Muslim symbol when there is no Muslim holiday taking place.

[Twiler]

Who, exactly, is putting up a crescent?

[Safe-Keeper]

Im all about making all faiths and peoples feel welcome in our country. but there is no reason to succomb to sillyness.These are the same people who have made it impossible to criticize Islamic human rights violations in the UN (see other thread). They are the same group of people who refuse to sign the Declaration of Human Rights because it is by their own confession incompatible with Sharia law (click (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_human_rights#Islamic_criticism)). It's the same group of people who have established a Sharia court in England (see other thread) which can be used at will by men who are stuck in the Middle Ages and don't feel like going to a court of law which treats women as people rather than possessions. I'm one of the people who used to regard criticism of Islamic imperialism as racist paranoia. I no longer do.

Who, exactly, is putting up a crescent?Doesn't matter as long as they also put up a cross and Star of David when they put up crescents. I don't have my hopes up, though.

[Professor Yaffle]

Eid al-Adha falls around now this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_al-Adha

[Lonewulf]

Those filthy muslims! How dare they think they have the right to be able to hold up religious symbols in public spaces?!

[The Painter]

I'm still waiting for someone to put up a statue of Ganesh. That would really drive them nuts. Why should anyone care what's put up. It is all make believe. There is no God or gods. My attitude is, let anything go up, I don't care. None of it is real.

[mikeyx]

Christmas and Hannukah very often fall during the same time period. Many communities have both Christian and Jewish residents. This is why, in my mind, it is fair and prudent to have both Christian and Jewish holiday symbols around this time.

But, is there a Muslim holiday at the end of December? And if not, then why do we feel the need to put up a Crescent? Is it simply to make Muslims feel better?

Im all about making all faiths and peoples feel welcome in our country. but there is no reason to succomb to sillyness.

It is silly to put up a Muslim symbol when there is no Muslim holiday taking place.

EID was last week. Happy qwanza to.

[Thunder]

Those filthy muslims! How dare they think they have the right to be able to hold up religious symbols in public spaces?!

that is a beautiful strawman!!!!!!

did I not make it clear enough that I believe the issue is whether or not there is a Muslim holiday during December?

[Thunder]

EID was last week. Happy qwanza to.

well, then, technically, i guess its ok dokee, at least in my book.

my issue is the sillyness of putting up a religous symbol for a faith that has no holiday taking place during that time period. when Eid takes place in September, it would be quite silly to put up a Crescent for it in December, no?

[Thunder]

Who, exactly, is putting up a crescent?

our Federal Govt does every year, in D.C.

[screensnot]

well, then, technically, i guess its ok dokee, at least in my book.

That's very generous of you.

[rjh01]

Well since the Christians stole the idea of Christmas from the pagans I think every religion should be able to join in the fun.

[manofthesea]

A couple of years ago here in Honolulu at City Hall, where we have multi faith symbols set out for Honolulu City Lights, they had a Satanic area. They haven't allowed it since.

I think that it would be pretty cool to have a Kali display thugh.

[Professor Yaffle]

that is a beautiful strawman!!!!!!

did I not make it clear enough that I believe the issue is whether or not there is a Muslim holiday during December?

But you didn't even bother to check before starting a thread on it.

[Skeptic]

But, is there a Muslim holiday at the end of December?

Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. The Muslim calendar is a lunar calendar that does *NOT* take account of the difference between the lunar and solar year, so depending on the year any holiday can fall just about at any time.

In Haifa, there's a traditional city festival called "the holidays' holiday" where Christian, Jewish, and Muslim holidays are celebrated together in December. Hannukah and Christmas fall more or less at the same time (late december) every year, but the Muslim holiday is different every time -- and when there happens to be no Muslim holiday then, they essentially "recruit" the nearest one (beginning of Ramadan, or End of Ramadan, or Birth of Muhammad, or... etc.) even if it's a month or so away in either direction.

Ridiculous? I don't think so. I think that your criticism, while literally correct, misses the point. The point here is a CEREMONY, not a religious lesson. The crescent is not put up as a claim that Muslims have a holiday at this time of year; Muslims are not invited to the "holidays' holiday" in Haifa" merely if and when there actually is a Muslim holiday at the time -- even if a Muslim holiday which sorta-kinda during the same general time period is sometimes used as an excuse.

In both cases, the point is in the invitation and participation itself, to tell the Muslims they are welcome and are part of the larger society, e.g., the American one, which has holidays in those times.

It serves the same purpose as telling someone "Merry Christmas" without inquiring first if they're Christians: it's an invitation, a polite sentiment, not a religious declaration or attempt at conversion.

[Safe-Keeper]

Well since the Christians stole the idea of Christmas from the pagans I think every religion should be able to join in the fun.An excellent point:D.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

December 25th -- Mithra's birthday. How about the Christians select a new one? Like in the Spring sometime -- when shepherds actually do "watch their flock by night". :confused:

[articulett]

I prefer public places have only secular decorations--however, if they are going to allow one religious viewpoint, they must, by law--allow them all in America. So long as people keep their Jesus etc. on their church grounds, I think that those holding other religious viewpoints will do the same.

Public property is owned by the public and government cannot endorse one religious viewpoint over another or discriminate against the nonbeliever.

Christmas trees--lights-- Santa-- perfectly secular-- but once you start throwing religious paraphernalia into the display, you've invited those with alternative viewpoints to do the same.

I think every time any religious group is granted a special privilege because of religion-- all religious groups and points of view should request the same. It truly is the only way to keep the government secular-- and keep religious symbols on the tax-free property they belong on.

Public property is paid for by the public-- the government cannot seem to endorse one religion over any other nor religion over non religion.

[gumboot]

December 25th -- Mithra's birthday. How about the Christians select a new one? Like in the Spring sometime -- when shepherds actually do "watch their flock by night". :confused:


In the Middle East I think you'll find they can watch their flocks by night all year round.

[articulett]

In the Middle East I think you'll find they can watch their flocks by night all year round.


I'm not sure about this... but the whole star thing indicates that if the bible story has any veracity, Jesus would have been born in the spring or summer. I think this has been common knowledge for some time. I remember knowing this as a Catholic kid.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/10/the-star-of-bethlehem-again/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/09/astronomers-jesus-was-bor_n_149749.html

http://nabataea.net/birthdate.html

In any case, I think it's safe to say that the Christians appropriated a common solstice celebration as well as Pagan trimmings-- they don't own the month of December as a "holiday" time by any means. Even the term "hoiday" means "holy day"-- but you don't have to be holy to celebrate the holidays. Rudolph isn't.

[Safe-Keeper]

In the Middle East I think you'll find they can watch their flocks by night all year round. If it's temperature you're thinking about, it gets cold at night in those areas, too. Especially in deserts.

[gumboot]

I'm not sure about this... but the whole star thing indicates that if the bible story has any veracity, Jesus would have been born in the spring or summer. I think this has been common knowledge for some time. I remember knowing this as a Catholic kid.


There's actually no evidence in the Bible that the star appeared when Jesus was born. It took the Wise Men two years of following the star to reach Jerusalem, and when they arrived in Bethlehem Jesus was still there. Joseph and Mary fled Bethlehem when Jesus was only forty days old.

[gumboot]

If it's temperature you're thinking about, it gets cold at night in those areas, too. Especially in deserts.


Cold, yes. So cold that flocks have to be kept in a barn otherwise they'll die? No. That's one of the reasons Europe settled into fixed population centres and the people of the Middle East didn't.

[fuelair]

I'm still waiting for someone to put up a statue of Ganesh. That would really drive them nuts. Why should anyone care what's put up. It is all make believe. There is no God or gods. My attitude is, let anything go up, I don't care. None of it is real.

Ganesh is cool - and I'm fine with all or none!!

[articulett]

Mithras certainly deserves to be represented... it's his birthday.

And it's Newton's birthday too.

I see lots of potential for garish displays.

I think Darwin with a Santa Hat would be festive, myself. He has the beard for it.

[I Ratant]

In the Middle East I think you'll find they can watch their flocks by night all year round.
.
Yeah, it goes with the culture. During the sack of Baghdad following the "success" of the Gulf War, it was obvious that -anything- that wasn't welded in place, with a 24/7 guard could be stolen by anyone passing by, whether there was any use for the object at all.
The guy proudly carrying home the -door frame- he'd pried off some building. No door, some other guy got that.

[interwaff]

It looks so cheesy having multiple displays.

Usually they clash so badly, you have to assume spite was involved.... there was some little toad who wasn't happy, and just had to throw his or her 2 cents into the mix...

[articulett]

It looks so cheesy having multiple displays.

Usually they clash so badly, you have to assume spite was involved.... there was some little toad who wasn't happy, and just had to throw his or her 2 cents into the mix...

Which is exactly why NO religious displays should be allowed.

If it is on public property, it should be secular-- Santa, bells, trees, lights, Rudolph, snowmen.

If people keep their baby Jesuses on their church grounds or on private property, then I suspect all other religions would be willing to do the same. But if you allow one, you must allow the others or risk violating the first amendment.

And I am glad we have these laws. I hope all the wacky religions and viewpoints come out of the woodwork whenever people seek to have their religious icons on public property. It is the only way to keep it from looking like the government is endorsing a particular brand of religion--or favoring religion over non belief.

All holidays are man-made-- the government should not be in the business of determining which ones are "valid" and which ones are not.

[The Painter]

Which is exactly why NO religious displays should be allowed.

If it is on public property, it should be secular-- Santa, bells, trees, lights, Rudolph, snowmen.


I don't think "Santa" is secular. You know, Saint Nick



All holidays are man-made-- the government should not be in the business of determining which ones are "valid" and which ones are not.

Don't be silly. That's what the government does.

[interwaff]

It's like the people insisting on "Winter Ball" or "Holiday Dance". They're arrogant.

Minority faiths should shut up. Move somewhere with more of your own kind if you are so worried about fitting in.

[I Ratant]

It's like the people insisting on "Winter Ball" or "Holiday Dance". They're arrogant.

We minority faithless should shut up. Move somewhere with more of your own kind if you are so worried about fitting in.
.
Editing to give the statement a more universal fit.

[drkitten]

I don't think "Santa" is secular. You know, Saint Nick


Do you really think that Santa and the Bishop of Smyrna are the same character?

[cj.23]

December 25th -- Mithra's birthday. How about the Christians select a new one? Like in the Spring sometime -- when shepherds actually do "watch their flock by night". :confused:


Sadly not so. Sol Invictus was celebrated in late summer, usually August as i recall, with games every four years in October. October 19 was the festival of the Roman cult. :) See Alternative Messiahs thread for much more on this issue. Briefly the only reference we have to a "Mithraic" (actually Sol Invictus") celebration on December 25th is games at the Flavian Ampitheatre recorded in the Chronographia of 354 - whereas Christmas being popularly celebrated on taht date at least as early as 221. So it's probably a pagan move to a Christian festival day, considering we are in the reight of Constantius II there. These facts rarely trouble purveyors of Mithras woo though! Anyway Merry Festivus & all that jazz! :D

cj x

[The Nimble Pianist]

Question for Parky:

Since you seem to believe that only faiths that have a holiday during December (or near it) should be represented in a community display, what is your opinion concerning the recent hub-bub about that atheist display in Washington?

Atheists don't have any holidays you know...

[articulett]

The Christians filed a lawsuit to have their creche on display in Washington... but the law states that if you allow one religious viewpoint (or allow public space to be used as a forum for such expressions) you MUST allow all points of view-- including non-religous points of view equal access.

Public places ought to be secular-- with Secular holiday decorations if any... not baby Jesus. But once you allow one brand of religious expression, you must allow equal access to opposing viewpoints and any other religious viewpoint.

So long as people keep their Jesus on their church grounds, then the city can deny access to all other religious points of view as well.

The government of the USA is not allowed to favor one religion over another nor can it favor religion over non-religion.

[COLONEL]

Question for Parky:

Since you seem to believe that only faiths that have a holiday during December (or near it) should be represented in a community display, what is your opinion concerning the recent hub-bub about that atheist display in Washington?

Atheists don't have any holidays you know...Well lets start one ,pick a day and we will call it Atheist day
:D

[The Nimble Pianist]

The Christians filed a lawsuit to have their creche on display in Washington... but the law states that if you allow one religious viewpoint (or allow public space to be used as a forum for such expressions) you MUST allow all points of view-- including non-religous points of view equal access.

Public places ought to be secular-- with Secular holiday decorations if any... not baby Jesus. But once you allow one brand of religious expression, you must allow equal access to opposing viewpoints and any other religious viewpoint.

So long as people keep their Jesus on their church grounds, then the city can deny access to all other religious points of view as well.

The government of the USA is not allowed to favor one religion over another nor can it favor religion over non-religion.


I completely agree.

I'm still curious though to get Parky's take on it. ;)

[The Nimble Pianist]

Well lets start one ,pick a day and we will call it Atheist day
:D

**Cue the oft recited suggestion of making April 1st 'Atheist Day'**

If we were serious about this though, I'd suggest Charles Darwin's birthday February 12th (he turns 200 this year!).

[GreNME]

Sadly not so. Sol Invictus was celebrated in late summer, usually August as i recall, with games every four years in October. October 19 was the festival of the Roman cult. :) See Alternative Messiahs thread for much more on this issue. Briefly the only reference we have to a "Mithraic" (actually Sol Invictus") celebration on December 25th is games at the Flavian Ampitheatre recorded in the Chronographia of 354 - whereas Christmas being popularly celebrated on taht date at least as early as 221. So it's probably a pagan move to a Christian festival day, considering we are in the reight of Constantius II there. These facts rarely trouble purveyors of Mithras woo though! Anyway Merry Festivus & all that jazz! :D

cj x

Thanks, beat me to it. :p I always have a hearty head-slap when I hear that Mithras woo propagated, even more so when it happens in relatively intelligent company.

Closest holidays: a Persian light festival (also used in Mithraic woo) and the Roman Saturnalia + solstice festival (the former being about a week-and-a-half prior, the latter a couple days prior and usually ending on X-Mas eve). It's fairly reasonable to suspect that the Christians got their holiday date mostly in relation to the solstice celebration, mixing it with gift-giving due to either the Saturnalia celebration or taking from the Hanukkah tradition. And considering that the Eastern Church still celebrates the birth on January 6th and not December 25th, it's obvious that date wasn't unanimous even going way back.

[Darth Rotor]

And considering that the Eastern Church still celebrates the birth on January 6th and not December 25th, it's obvious that date wasn't unanimous even going way back.
Aye, the Twelve days of Christmas: 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 seem to fit into that Eastern pattern rather nicely.

By the way, what am I supposed to do with those Lords A Leaping? Last year we sent them down to the city center to help with the homeless shelter, but this year we don't know what to do yet.
6

[COLONEL]

By the way, what am I supposed to do with those Lords A Leaping? Last year we sent them down to the city center to help with the homeless shelter, but this year we don't know what to do yet.
Send them to San Francisco they will blend right in .:D

[GreNME]

Aye, the Twelve days of Christmas: 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 seem to fit into that Eastern pattern rather nicely.

By the way, what am I supposed to do with those Lords A Leaping? Last year we sent them down to the city center to help with the homeless shelter, but this year we don't know what to do yet.
6

What are you supposed to do? You're not supposed to do anything! That's the beauty of it!

[The Nimble Pianist]

Send them to San Francisco they will blend right in .:D


Only during the third weekends of June (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Pride) and September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folsom_Street_Fair) otherwise they'll just look foolish. We aren't freaks year round you know ;).

[mikeyx]

Eid al-Adha falls around now this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_al-Adha

heres some fun fer ya, Im protestant, and the Pir of the sufi order I belong wished the order happy EId, I returned the favor.