Inside a North Korean Gulag

[Puppycow]

This is how bad it is (http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=3793888&page=1):

The first two days of torture started with threatening questions about his family's conspiracy. Shin Dong-Hyuk had no answers because at age 14, he was required to live in the dormitory with other teenagers in North Korea's notorious political prison camp No.14, north of Pyongyang. He had not seen his parents and brother for weeks.

The next morning, Shin was hung upside down with his ankles cuffed, all day long. He wondered why his mother and brother tried to escape, if what the authorities claimed was true. Surely, they should have known that anything short of being out of place in this camp is punished by death.

On the fourth day Shin was dragged into cell No.7, the secret underground torture chamber. Completely stripped, legs cuffed, hands tied with rope, his legs and hands were hung from the ceiling. The torturers lit up a charcoal fire under his back. He struggled. But they pierced a steel hook near Shin's groin to keep him from writhing. Amid the sounds and smells of flesh burning, Shin then blacked out.

Eleven years after that day, Shin Dong-Hyuk is now standing high in Seoul, South Korea, signing autographs in his recently published book "Escape to the Outside World," which is about his life in the North Korean prison camp. He's spreading the word about the brutal North Korean regime and making plans for a new life of freedom.

But none of it would be possible if not for a daring, tragic escape.
. . .
Children were beaten to death in front of others for stealing five grains of wheat out of hunger. Girls were raped and protesting mothers disappeared. He witnessed his own mother offering sex to guards. Teenagers were buried under cement while being forced to build power plants. Shin's middle-finger knuckle was cut off as punishment for dropping a sewing machine. And he watched the public executions of his mother and brother after their failed escape.

Unfortunately there is no way to independently verify this (which is not to say that I doubt it, just that there is no way to independently verify it).

[Travis]

But don't ever suggest that the word "evil" might be applicable. That's just way out of line.

[dudalb]

Horrid, but SOP for brutal dictatorships be they of the Left or Right.

[dudalb]

But don't ever suggest that the word "evil" might be applicable. That's just way out of line.

Back in the 70's ,when the Genocide by Pol Pot in Cambodia begin to come out, Some prominent Americans on the Far Left made a statement to the effect they did not deny it was happening, but that it would damage the cause of Socialism to criticise a Socialist regime. Sad.

[FarmallMTA]

But don't ever suggest that the word "evil" might be applicable. That's just way out of line.

And, further, don't even DARE suggest that the regime should be violently disbanded to end the misery of the citizens, especially if the French express their disapproval of doing so.

After all, to save the people of the country from a murderous regime would be... immoral.

[Smackety]

It wouldn't be if we could actually save them...

[Puppycow]

And, further, don't even DARE suggest that the regime should be violently disbanded to end the misery of the citizens, especially if the French express their disapproval of doing so.

After all, to save the people of the country from a murderous regime would be... immoral.

I'd be all for it. If I didn't live in Tokyo. Would rather not me and my family get nuked. Seoul would probably get it even worse. I don't think that France's opinion enters into it.

[quixotecoyote]

Nobody drop a match in this thread...

[Pardalis]

Where's E.J. Armstrong when you need him? There's torture involved!

[Travis]

Where's E.J. Armstrong when you need him? There's torture involved!

Torture is only bad if it is done by a conservative government........apparently.:rolleyes:

[Confuseling]

And, further, don't even DARE suggest that the regime should be violently disbanded to end the misery of the citizens, especially if the French express their disapproval of doing so.

After all, to save the people of the country from a murderous regime would be... immoral.

Actually, I think a lot of the criticism of the Iraq adventure is that nobody is doing a great deal about North Korea.

Or Zimbabwe. Or Burma...

[moon1969]

North Korea is supported by China and Russia. It is ashame what China and Russia supports what happens in North Korea.

[Ziggurat]

Where's E.J. Armstrong when you need him? There's torture involved!

That's not fair. His posts weren't that bad.

[timhau]

I'd be all for it. If I didn't live in Tokyo. Would rather not me and my family get nuked. Seoul would probably get it even worse. I don't think that France's opinion enters into it.

I don't think NK has the ability to nuke Tokyo (or really do much of anything else to it). What they do have is the ability to pretty much flatten Seoul through conventional means, because of the city's unfortunate proximity to the North Korean border. Their artillery may not be modern, but there's lots and lots of it.

[Skeptic]

Actually, I think a lot of the criticism of the Iraq adventure is that nobody is doing a great deal about North Korea. Or Zimbabwe. Or Burma...

I don't think so. Every time there was the least indication Bush would do something about North Korea, the usual gang of idiots attacked him for being a primitive warmonger, for being simplistic for calling the NK regime "evil", for not using diplomacy first, etc., etc., etc. -- all of which amounts to, "we want whatshisname to continue to run his private gulags as long as possible."

[Puppycow]

I don't think NK has the ability to nuke Tokyo (or really do much of anything else to it). What they do have is the ability to pretty much flatten Seoul through conventional means, because of the city's unfortunate proximity to the North Korean border. Their artillery may not be modern, but there's lots and lots of it.

I hope they don't have nukes yet, but they do (http://cns.miis.edu/stories/pdfs/060321.pdf)have missiles that can reach Tokyo.

North Korea has not demonstrated the capability to deliver
nuclear weapons with its ballistic missiles, but possibly could equip its medium-range Nodong missiles,
which can reach Japan, with nuclear warheads.

Note that saying that they have not "demonstrated" the capability is not the same as saying that they don't have the capability. Even if the chance is very low, most Tokyoites probably wouldn't want it to be taken.

And, as you say, we know that Seoul can be devatated, and that's probably a big enough deterrant in itself.

[DC]

if North Kora had natural resources like oil, we would consider helping them.

[CFLarsen]

North Korea is one big Gulag.

[timhau]

I hope they don't have nukes yet, but they do (http://cns.miis.edu/stories/pdfs/060321.pdf)have missiles that can reach Tokyo.


I stand corrected. I thought the medium-range NK missiles that can reach Japan had the accuracy of a sawed-off shotgun, but apparently they're a lot better than that (even if not particularly accurate by modern standards). And of course, missing downtown Tokyo by 10 miles means you'll still hit something.


And, as you say, we know that Seoul can be devatated, and that's probably a big enough deterrant in itself.

It probably is. I've seen estimates (which are, of course, just estimates, since we know so little of NK -- and sorry, I don't have references) of six-figure civilian casualties from artillery fire within the first hour or so, should the US attack North Korea from the south. After that, the rate would drop as the artillery bases are taken out, but the drop may not be quick because they are distributed all over the place near the DMZ.

What makes things even more difficult is the fact that massive civilian evacuations from Seoul cannot happen without the North Koreans knowing about it, and such an action would probably be taken as a declaration of war.

[Puppycow]

What makes things even more difficult is the fact that massive civilian evacuations from Seoul cannot happen without the North Koreans knowing about it, and such an action would probably be taken as a declaration of war.

I wonder how many artillery-resistant underground shelters there are in Seoul. If each building had a bomb shelter, so that you are never far away from one?

[Kevin_Lowe]

Torture is only bad if it is done by a conservative government........apparently.:rolleyes:

And, further, don't even DARE suggest that the regime should be violently disbanded to end the misery of the citizens, especially if the French express their disapproval of doing so.

After all, to save the people of the country from a murderous regime would be... immoral.

But don't ever suggest that the word "evil" might be applicable. That's just way out of line.

If you think that's bad, you should see what they do to straw men around here.

[Confuseling]

I don't think so. Every time there was the least indication Bush would do something about North Korea, the usual gang of idiots attacked him for being a primitive warmonger, for being simplistic for calling the NK regime "evil", for not using diplomacy first, etc., etc., etc. -- all of which amounts to, "we want whatshisname to continue to run his private gulags as long as possible."

Well, from the usual peacenik suspects, maybe. But the centrist majority in opposition to Iraq 2 were in opposition in large part because the Evil Dictator Du Jour often happens, by a startlingly lucky coincidence, to be somewhere of geostrategic interest to the empire concerned.

[timhau]

I wonder how many artillery-resistant underground shelters there are in Seoul. If each building had a bomb shelter, so that you are never far away from one?

Good question. However, it leaves us with the huge problem of what happens after Seoul has been leveled. Even if nobody dies, the material damage will be devastating.

[Travis]

If you think that's bad, you should see what they do to straw men around here.

Are you asserting that people did not take issue with North Korea being labeled as part of an "Axis of Evil?"

[Kevin_Lowe]

Are you asserting that people did not take issue with North Korea being labeled as part of an "Axis of Evil?"

Are you attacking claims nobody in this thread made? Do you often do that?

[shecky]

For those actually interested in NK, there's this fascinating 14 part video on ViceTV (http://www.vbs.tv/video.php?id=1438428757).

[gtc]

Are you attacking claims nobody in this thread made?

Laugh, yes he is. If you think this is a problem then you have no idea how discussion boards work.

Do you often do that?

Why do you care how often he does that?


Do you take exception to North Korea being labelled part of the axis of evil?