God Saves a 2-Year Old, Tries to Kill His Grandmother.

[Skeptic Guy]

Grandmother and 2-year old grandson get hit by a car. Baby gets thrown into a car and rolls into an open sunroof. Poof...a MIRACLE OF GOD.

http://www.ksat.com/news/18279836/detail.html

"I didn't close it for whatever reason," he said. "And I just happened to have it opened. Everybody here tells me it was an act of God that I had it open. Had it been not been open or a hard top, God knows what would have happened to that baby."

I don't know if the Grandmother would agree:


The toddler's grandmother was transported to University Hospital in critical condition, although police said it appeared she would make a full recovery.


There's a whole lot of rationalization goin' on.

[Safe-Keeper]

Person makes it without injury: Praise God for making me open my sunroof!

Person is lightly injured: Praise God they escaped this easily! A broken foot is nothing but a mild remainder from the Lord to appreciate our healthy, unbroken bodies!

Person is badly injured:It is only because of divine intervention that Lucy, Karen and Betty are still alive. If there was no god, surely at least one of them would've ended up dead!

Person dies: It's a miracle! Betty and Karen would have died if not for the Lord!

Multiple people die: Well, of course they did, you stupid atheist, what was God supposed to do, take control of the driver and force him to open his sunroof? Would you rather we all walked around without free will as robots?!

[paximperium]

Kinda like how if everyone dies in a plane crash except for one person with half his body burnt it is because of the mercy of god...or maybe the bastard caused the plane crash himself?

...and if the witness dies later? Suspicious.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Nevermind--I misread the story.

[Dunstan]

I like the name one web site gave to this nonsense: "The Argument From Incomplete Devastation"

[HarryKeogh]

Reminds me of those poor miners a couple years back.

"They're alive! It's a miracle!"

5 minutes later:

"Turns out they're dead. It's God's plan."

[Skeptic Guy]

God works in mysterious ways and it is not up to us to understand it.

[Dunstan]

God works in mysterious ways and it is not up to us to understand it.

... except when we want to tell other people what kind of sex they can have, of course!

[Phase Inverter]

I like the name one web site gave to this nonsense: "The Argument From Incomplete Devastation"


Yes. This reminds me of an incident that happened in my hometown back in 1987. Northwest Airlines flight 255 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255) crashed and killed 154 passengers plus 2 people on the ground. BUT: One passenger survived, therefore God exists.

[steve s]

Reminds me of those poor miners a couple years back.

"They're alive! It's a miracle!"

5 minutes later:

"Turns out they're dead. It's God's plan."


And Sylvia Browne predicted both outcomes.

Steve S.

[Safe-Keeper]

And Sylvia Browne predicted both outcomes.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/binladen_dead_alive_opt.jpg

[not daSkeptic]

Yes .... because when the odds of something are 1 in 10some-big-number that really means the odds are zero, and thus it couldn't possibly happen without God's involvement. Right? :rolleyes:

[Zep]

So... Let me get this straight.

A woman is driving around with the sunroof open in her car. That's got to be the rarest thing ever. Who'd give that credit?! :rolleyes:

Then they hit a granny on a pedestrian crossing carrying a child in her arms. Honestly, that never, EVER happens! What are the odds of that?! :rolleyes:

And they are hit so hard the child falls on the car's bonnet, and its momentum causes the child to roll up the windscreen and onto the car roof. Gawsh almighty, who would have believed THAT! :rolleyes:

At which point the child fell through the open sunroof like a golf-ball going in the hole, and thus fell onto the passenger seat. Praise be, GODDIDIT! :rolleyes:

This is the very same physics basis as the stunt of rapidly pulling the tablecloth out from under a set table of crockery and cutlery. Aka. INERTIA! Just that all of a sudden, for some reason, Jebus was responsible and not physics. But I guess INERTIA doesn't make for good headlines. :rolleyes:

PS. I'm going to roll my eyes so hard I'll get cramp in my eyelids...

[The Mutha]

Except that it wasn't a woman driver.... but proceed, I'm being picky here.

[steve s]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/binladen_dead_alive_opt.jpg

:D:D:D

I always love it when the news uses the "Experts say..." or worse, "Some say..." Who are these people they're referring to? Tell us.

Steve S

[hgc]

God Saves a 2-Year Old, Tries to Kill His Grandmother.

If the old tyrant wanted her dead, believe you me, she'd be dead. It's another miracle!

[Radrook]

Claiming that God saves people while allowing them to be mangled and crippled in the process isn't backed by scripture.

Daniel wasn't partially mauled by the lions in the lions' pit.
The Israelites weren't partially drowned at the Red Sea.
Shadrack Meshac and Abednego weren't partially burned when thrown into a furnace.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Claiming that God saves people while allowing them to be mangled and crippled in the process isn't backed by scripture.

Ummmm....:confused: No one said that it was.

Of course, Rad put me on Ignore long ago...

Can someone do me the favor of pointing out this fact to him?

[Achán hiNidráne]

!
Person dies: It's a miracle! Betty and Karen would have died if not for the Lord!

Multiple people die: Well, of course they did, you stupid atheist, what was God supposed to do, take control of the driver and force him to open his sunroof? Would you rather we all walked around without free will as robots?!


You're forgetting one:

Person/People die: He/She/They are in a better place. The Lord called him/her/them home. He/She/They are in their "perfect body" now.

[slingblade]

Claiming that God saves people while allowing them to be mangled and crippled in the process isn't backed by scripture.


Then go tell the bleevers, it's their song.

[paximperium]

Claiming that God saves people while allowing them to be mangled and crippled in the process isn't backed by scripture.

Daniel wasn't partially mauled by the lions in the lions' pit.
The Israelites weren't partially drowned at the Red Sea.
Shadrack Meshac and Abednego weren't partially burned when thrown into a furnace.
Ah, so theist get to claim credit for the "miracles" if nothing happens to victim but refuse to aknowlege any injuries or deaths during said accident.

So in an airplane crash if 2 Christians survive, one severely burnt and one with no injuries...are you going to claim credit for the uninjurred fella and ignore the burnt guy?

[alfaniner]

I just saw a recreation of the 9/11 events. Two of the survivors were very clear in their having to give thanks to a god. "He was my guardian angel." "They were sent by God to save me."

I just wanted to say "What makes you so damn special?"

[quarky]

God so loved his only son that he

oh, nevermind.

[Radrook]

Some years ago I read in the Reader's Digest about a man who claimed God had caught him in mid-air when he fell from great height at a construction site where he worked. It turns out that what broke his fall was a metal shaft which impaled him through the crotch causing severe damage to internal organs. Yet, despite his horrendous injuries he still claims it was God.

In contrast this fellow of Puerto Rican persuasion claimed that he had been on the 87th floor of one of the towers when it began to collapse and he simply went along with the rubble's flow, landed on his feet and went home. No claim of God intervening there.

[Skeptic Guy]

Originally Posted by Radrook http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4273682#post4273682)
Claiming that God saves people while allowing them to be mangled and crippled in the process isn't backed by scripture.




Ummmm....:confused: No one said that it was.

Of course, Rad put me on Ignore long ago...

Can someone do me the favor of pointing out this fact to him?

Radrook, Mark wanted to make sure that you saw this.

The point is that people are claiming that it was a miracle of god that the infant was saved by falling into an open sunroof, yet this same all-powerful, benevolent god messed up the grandmother something awful. I don't know how you can claim the one thing without scratching your head about the other.

[screensnot]

I wonder what the old lady did, that got God so mad at her, that He'd try to kill her.

The open sunroof is surely proof of God's love and mercy for the innocent.

But, if the old lady doesn't die, is that proof that God is not omnipotent?

[fishbait]

From RR:

Miraculously, no one in the other car was hurt, but I had a bad concussion, a bruised rib, cracked kneecap, torn tendon in my neck, some bad bruises, and what the paramedics thought might be a ruptured spleen. I had post concussion syndrome for about 10 months after, and still get some migraines related to the accident.

I know God had a hand in it, because there were so many things that could have gone wrong. He truly is all powerful!


:boggled:

[Radrook]

Radrook, Mark wanted to make sure that you saw this.

The point is that people are claiming that it was a miracle of god that the infant was saved by falling into an open sunroof, yet this same all-powerful, benevolent god messed up the grandmother something awful. I don't know how you can claim the one thing without scratching your head about the other.

Yes I agree that the claims are illogical.

BTW

Since such people claim to be Christians and the Bible is the book upon which Christian beliefs are based then scriptural support for their beliefs is and should be expected. Otherwise they are simply opinions without substance which should not be taken as an indicator of the irrationality of the religion they claim to practice.

I

[Psi Baba]

Reminds me of those poor miners a couple years back.

"They're alive! It's a miracle!"

5 minutes later:

"Turns out they're dead. It's God's plan."
It was worse than that. One of the distraught family members, understandably upset about the false hope they had been given, said, "We had a miracle and they took it away!" So God bestowed a miracle and a human thwarted it? That's quite an accomplishment.

[quarky]

I think there's some confusion about what constitutes a miracle.

A miracle is like winning the lottery. very unlikely. God is out to kill us, and torture us, for the most part. Then, occasionly, he lets a baby fall into a sun-roof and survive.

The odds don't stop people from playing the lottery. Why should it effect their fondness for a miracle? By definition, a miracle is rare. much like winning the lottery, which does happen...and in no way is said miracle a promise of a better life.

People that win the lottery are often miserable, broke, divorced...shortly after their miracle.

Babies that survive car wrecks could go on to become suicide victims, after a life of pain.

what's that got to do with God?

The prickiness of God is a poor reason to not believe in him or her or whatever.

It was a miracle that the baby lived. If a miracle can be described as something that defies the odds.

getting ten heads in a row, flipping a coin, is a miracle.

(rejoice in god's occasional, mostly irrelevant love?)

[articulett]

Person makes it without injury: Praise God for making me open my sunroof!

Person is lightly injured: Praise God they escaped this easily! A broken foot is nothing but a mild remainder from the Lord to appreciate our healthy, unbroken bodies!

Person is badly injured:It is only because of divine intervention that Lucy, Karen and Betty are still alive. If there was no god, surely at least one of them would've ended up dead!

Person dies: It's a miracle! Betty and Karen would have died if not for the Lord!

Multiple people die: Well, of course they did, you stupid atheist, what was God supposed to do, take control of the driver and force him to open his sunroof? Would you rather we all walked around without free will as robots?!


Kid lives-- Praise God!
Kid Dies-- God needed another angel; they're in a better place; Praise God!

[articulett]

I wonder if believers who lose people in car accidents wonder why god didn't act on their behalf when they hear stuff like this?

I suspect that people praise god because they fear he might turn into his wrathful vengeful self if they don't keep applauding him... (praise god lest he take the goodies away). It always strikes me as odd when modern people imagine invisible entities watching over them and guiding them and ready to alter physics with a "miracle" if the whim strikes them.

You'd have thought that if god was so praiseworthy, he would have prevented the accident in the first place--he's omniscient and alters physics at the behest of the faithful, right?

[screensnot]

I wonder if believers who lose people in car accidents wonder why god didn't act on their behalf when they hear stuff like this?

I suspect that people praise god because they fear he might turn into his wrathful vengeful self if they don't keep applauding him... (praise god lest he take the goodies away). It always strikes me as odd when modern people imagine invisible entities watching over them and guiding them and ready to alter physics with a "miracle" if the whim strikes them.

You'd have thought that if god was so praiseworthy, he would have prevented the accident in the first place--he's omniscient and alters physics at the behest of the faithful, right?

We don't really know the details, but the old lady might have deserved punishment. Maybe, the miracle was God distracting the driver just in time to cause the accident. The baby may be innocent, hence the open sunroof. Or, God could have some revenge planned for the baby at a later date.

[articulett]

What if the baby lives and grows up to be a sinner and ends up suffering in Hell for Eternity? --Then what? Does that make god a prick, when he could have ensured another fate for the little guy by taking him to "happily ever after" while he was "pure of heart"?

[screensnot]

What if the baby lives and grows up to be a sinner and ends up suffering in Hell for Eternity? --Then what? Does that make god a prick, when he could have ensured another fate for the little guy by taking him to "happily ever after" while he was "pure of heart"?

I think we can all agree that God is a prick.

But, don't get caught up in the 'God could have...' crowd.

We have to trust that if it's his plan that this baby be tortured in Hell, it is for the best.

[Roadtoad]

Watch it, folks. Kurious Kathy's back. Do NOT give her ammo. She'll just shoot herself in the foot with it.

[alfaniner]

I don't care if "God wanted another angel". He's got all eternity to have that entity. We in this life only have it for a small part of that. Let us have it, ********.

[Radrook]

I don't care if "God wanted another angel". He's got all eternity to have that entity. We in this life only have it for a small part of that. Let us have it, ********.


The idea that people become angels at death is not a scriptural one. Angels were and still are a separate creation. If God wants more angels he creates them directly as he did from the start.

Neither is God dedicated in collecting entities. He offers eternal life and if you or I reject it or accept it it's entirely up to us. Being comlete unto himself he lacks nothing and needs nothing. So our decision is not to accept his offer isn't as problematic seem to believe.

[Radrook]

I think we can all agree that God is a prick.

But, don't get caught up in the 'God could have...' crowd.

We have to trust that if it's his plan that this baby be tortured in Hell, it is for the best.

Hey snot, I don't know where you got your twisted ideas of God from but one thing is for sure, they aren't biblical. Also, I don't think that admiinistrators here take very kindly to foul language. So I suggest caution. In any case, bye!

BTW
Not everyone on this forum agrees with your aberrant ideas. So please don't flatter yourself.

[articulett]

Fascinating! And how many of his ready-made angels did he tell you can dance on the head of a pin?

[articulett]

Hey screenshot, I don't know where you got your twisted ideas of God from but one thing is for sure, they aren't biblical. Also, I don't think that admiinistrators here take very kindly to foul language. So I suggest caution. In any case, bye!

BTW
Not everyone on this forum agrees with your aberrant ideas. So please don't flatter yourself.

I said "prick" first, but I guess you have me on ignore. Prick-- as in "prick your finger with a needle"-- it's not a JREF no-no.

And I think many more people agree with screensnot's "aberrant" ideas than your morally, barren ideas.

Screensnot, meet Radrook. He's our resident Jehovah Witness. We get lots of Jesus woo this time-o-year. Fasten your seat belt. Nobody will welcome you to this forum like the "holier than thou". (I suggest using them for your own amusement... when life gives you lemons...)

[arthwollipot]

Also, I don't think that admiinistrators here take very kindly to foul language.The forum already autocensors foul language, like ****, ****, and ****. If a word isn't automatically censored, then by definition it isn't against the administrators' rules. Like crap, piss and prick.

[articulett]

I think we can say cock too.

Long live poultry!

[arthwollipot]

The difference is, "cock" and "prick" both have non-profane definitions. "Crap" and "piss" do not. In fact, I think ****, **** and **** are probably the only words being autocensored.

[Radrook]

So... Let me get this straight.

A woman is driving around with the sunroof open in her car. That's got to be the rarest thing ever. Who'd give that credit?! :rolleyes:

Then they hit a granny on a pedestrian crossing carrying a child in her arms. Honestly, that never, EVER happens! What are the odds of that?! :rolleyes:

And they are hit so hard the child falls on the car's bonnet, and its momentum causes the child to roll up the windscreen and onto the car roof. Gawsh almighty, who would have believed THAT! :rolleyes:

At which point the child fell through the open sunroof like a golf-ball going in the hole, and thus fell onto the passenger seat. Praise be, GODDIDIT! :rolleyes:

This is the very same physics basis as the stunt of rapidly pulling the tablecloth out from under a set table of crockery and cutlery. Aka. INERTIA! Just that all of a sudden, for some reason, Jebus was responsible and not physics. But I guess INERTIA doesn't make for good headlines. :rolleyes:

PS. I'm going to roll my eyes so hard I'll get cramp in my eyelids...

What you are describing is a mind deprived of proper training in cogent reasoning.
I would place the blame squarely on the shoulders of our educational system which doesn't teach kids how to reason properly-not on religion. A properly trained mind would never fall into that type of ridiculous pattern.

[Belz...]

Some years ago I read in the Reader's Digest

You shouldn't.

[Belz...]

I wonder if believers who lose people in car accidents wonder why god didn't act on their behalf when they hear stuff like this?

I suspect that people praise god because they fear he might turn into his wrathful vengeful self if they don't keep applauding him... (praise god lest he take the goodies away). It always strikes me as odd when modern people imagine invisible entities watching over them and guiding them and ready to alter physics with a "miracle" if the whim strikes them.

Well, Gunderscored knows how to threaten billions of people into obedience with eternal torment.

[screensnot]

Hey snot, I don't know where you got your twisted ideas of God from but one thing is for sure, they aren't biblical. Also, I don't think that admiinistrators here take very kindly to foul language. So I suggest caution. In any case, bye!

BTW
Not everyone on this forum agrees with your aberrant ideas. So please don't flatter yourself.

I got my ideas about God from my parents, pastor, the Bible, and several other influences.

If it's the word 'pr*ck' that bothers you, I can certainly refrain from using it. In fact, if you have some sort of list of words that you find offensive, send it to me. I would like you to be comfortable when reading this forum.

[CriticalSock]

I'm wondering why arthwollipots words are automatically censored? People can be much more offensive to others without resorting to them, well as long as they have a half decent vocabulary. It seems like taking the sticks and stones away and leaving the AK47s.

[paximperium]

The difference is, "cock" and "prick" both have non-profane definitions. "Crap" and "piss" do not. In fact, I think ****, **** and **** are probably the only words being autocensored.
I prefer the more refined term "penis".
eg.
"Why are you such a penis?"
"You penis!!!"
"God is such a penis for killing all those people." etc.

[articulett]

What you are describing is a mind deprived of proper training in cogent reasoning.
I would place the blame squarely on the shoulders of our educational system which doesn't teach kids how to reason properly-not on religion. A properly trained mind would never fall into that type of ridiculous pattern.

Irony.

*giggles*

[Achán hiNidráne]

I prefer the more refined term "penis".
eg.
"Why are you such a penis?"
"You penis!!!"
"God is such a penis for killing all those people." etc.

Personally, I don't see why we use slang for our reproductive organs or sexual acts as epithets. IMHO, it perpetuates the idea that sex and our nethers are "filthy" and "wrong" when we all know (i.e. anyone who isn't a pathetic Bible-humper) that it's quite the opposite.

Besides, for giving us life and pleasure, our genitals deserve far more respect than to compare them to some thing as evil and cruel Radrook's delusion of choice.

[Roadtoad]

Fascinating! And how many of his ready-made angels did he tell you can dance on the head of a pin?

I would suppose as many idiotic angels as could be found to engage in such a stupid exercise.

[Roadtoad]

I got my ideas about God from my parents, pastor, the Bible, and several other influences.

If it's the word 'pr*ck' that bothers you, I can certainly refrain from using it. In fact, if you have some sort of list of words that you find offensive, send it to me. I would like you to be comfortable when reading this forum.

No problemo. Here's mine:

God
Jesus
Deity
Religion
Faith
Salvation
Consecration
Sanctification/sanctimony
Spirit
Prophecy
Magic

Give me some time. I'm sure I can come up with more.

[hgc]

masticate
treacle
fuchsia
lederhosen
hoarse
velveteen

[Roadtoad]

*ew*

Lederhosen...

[ParrotPirate]

Tasty. I don't know why,but that has always bothered me.

[articulett]

What bothers you-- the word "tasty" or the fact that you find lederhosen tasty?

(I find them tasteless myself. Kind of tacky even.)

[arthwollipot]

I'm wondering why arthwollipots words are automatically censored? People can be much more offensive to others without resorting to them, well as long as they have a half decent vocabulary. It seems like taking the sticks and stones away and leaving the AK47s.I used the words for illustrative purposes only. Profanity has its place, but in polite company it should be used in limited amounts if at all.