Split from: How do you live with no God? (A Response to Thanz)

[Roadtoad]

Thanz:

First, I need to point out my respect for you. While we disagree on a great deal, I'm well aware of your compassion and respect for others. I treasure that sort of thing, as well as the civility you've shown since I've communicated with you.

Yes, I have a very harsh view of the life I led before. I make few excuses for that; I believe I was misled by those I sought to trust, deliberately so. Why such people choose to lie to others is confusing to me.

I'm not going to go into the contradictions of the Bible in this. That's already been covered by too many others, to better effect. Bandwagons are fine, if they're actually going somewhere. Most of them that I've encountered simply sit there, with half the players spending their time grousing about how unfair it all was that they were lied to. (At some point, you have to hitch up the horses and get it under way. The direction might be right or wrong, but dammit, GET MOVING!)

There are a few points I would make in this discussion:

The primary one is that most people will be willing to overlook the contradictions of Holy Writ when there's a compassionate assembly on whom they can rely. You can look at the geneologies of Jesus and accept the one as being from Mary, and the other as being from Joseph, and deal with the contradictions within Jewish Law relatively well, so long as when you walk through the doors of the Church, you're forgiven, accepted, and ultimately, respected. If you've only had one marriage, you tithe and make offerings, you're willing to serve as an usher or in some other capacity, that's fine. I was able to fulfill two of those things for some time in the Church, and got along fine with most people. Perhaps not with our Pastor(s), or the FoPs, but most of the time, we did okay.

But, when you consider within many (not all) Churches the inordinate influence the FoPs hold, you begin to wonder.

Cliquishness has been a part of the religious experience since recorded history. I'm pretty certain that the same thing happened within the walls of temples to Ba'al, Zeus, Jupiter, Zoroaster... It's not going to change any time soon. It's also been condemned by those in authority in nearly every religious assembly, vocally, frequently. The reasons for those condemnations have yet to change: it's destructive, prejudicial, and cruel. It doesn't take much to turn the same criteria for one clique, turn it on its head, and use it against the very people who have used it before. More often than not, that's what happens.

(Just as an aside, I've mentioned that Peggy and I have been shunned by some of the FoPs because both of us have been divorced. By the same token, I notice, for example, that Sandi Patti, Amy Grant, Benny Hester, Mike Warnke, and a whole host of other Christian artists are still welcomed by the FoPs; forgiven and held up as examples of "God's Grace." I suppose it's easier to expect "God's Grace" when you can fill an auditorium, and sell tickets. Cynicism should be noted.)

As I've pointed out over my time here: I worked in Christian radio. One of the people I worked with is a guy named Bob Lepine. (Google the man's name. I've tried to get in touch with him over time, and got nowhere, if for no other reason, simply to say, "Congrats on the new gig.") I met his wife MaryAnne. I didn't meet his kids, but I remember her being pregnant back when Bob and I worked together.

I remember well being shut out of a lot of things at the station, mainly because I was (at the time) an Episcopalian. I changed, eventually, but not because of anything Bob did. Mainly, it was in spite of him. He can be a nice guy, but he operated back then in the very same manner I'm condemning here. In fact, I've often said that the term "Christian radio" is an oxymoron; half business, half ministry, it's so bastardized, it's a wonder anyone listens. (PM me if you need to know where I worked and when. I know one of the current managers there.)

I would say further that while there are Churches which have worked towards social justice, the bulk of them are willing and content to allow injustice to not only be perpetuated, but in this day and age, to expand. I don't understand why, as it certainly furthers the view that the Church is not only unjust, but for that matter, that there's a strong undercurrent of cruelty to it, in many cases to the point of abuse. At one point, for example, the station GM who took over after Bob Lepine made it clear that as our policy, we would oppose the end of Apartheid in South Africa.

I have no clue how a little podunky radio station in Carmichael, CA, had any business supporting or opposing Apartheid as official policy. If anything, regardless of your personal views or the rules under the FCC, I'd think you'd stick to the Fairness Doctrine, and try to present ALL sides of the issue, as fairly and evenly as possible. Considering in this country the whole issue of "Separate but Equal" was long ago shown to be a lie, I'd think in this particular issue, you'd at least be clear in your own mind that while it was lawful in South Africa, it was still unjust, regardless of where you were.

At one point, I made it clear to the GM that I was opposed to Apartheid not only as a Christian, but as an American, and as a broadcaster. It went against everything I held dear in my life, to the point that I was taking a portion of the $900 a month pittance I was earning and donating it to oppose Apartheid.

The manager told me, "Now, you have to understand: We need to grant black people their rights gradually. Otherwise, they'll misuse them."

Huh!?! Funny, but when I turned 18, it was made clear to me that I had all the rights accorded any citizen of this nation. I was not granted them gradually. They were mine in whole, as were the responsibilities that accompanied them. If I misused them, the fault was mine. The only way to learn to use your rights responsibly is to use them, or misuse them, and learn from your mistakes! What kind of racist stupidity was this?

In the spirit of Ron Popeil, "But WAIT! There's MORE!"

"You have to understand: Black people are genetically inferior to White People. We have to take care of them."

WTF!?!?

I thought this was a mistake, but from what I've seen over the years, this attitude, in one form or another, typifies the average Evangelical in America. The claim may not be so blatantly racist, but it might be couched in the the notion that "We shouldn't interfere," even as we have Pat Robertson declaring we ought to whack Hugo Chavez, because God thinks it's a good idea. (Of course, this is assuming Pat heard God correctly.

(Just between you and me: If you have to ask, it wasn't God speaking.)

I wound up telling the GM he was a racist. To his face. A couple of weeks later, I was canned.

I won't tell you what I was told happened to that GM. First, I can't prove it happened. Second, even if I could, it's almost irrelevant to this tale.

Let me take this a bit further. At one point, we joined a Baptist congregation in our community. The pastor there was a guy named Jim Dickinson. He's a great person. I like him. I disagreed with him on many points, (he was one of those who taught that AIDS was God's Wrath; I pointed out that it would have been more accurate to say it was God's permissive will. If it were God's wrath, at best, it would have suggested that God was incompetent. At it's worst, it would have said outright that He was a capricious bastard.)

Yet, even as Jim taught what he did from the pulpit, he'd come back and hit you with that second edge: If you confess Christ, you have an obligation to minister to those who suffer the ravages of AIDS. That meant you take meals to those afflicted. You show up and clean house. You visit them at the hospital. You have an obligation to serve. If you're going to talk it, walk it.

As you can guess, that didn't sit too well with the FoPs, the Church deacons, and his associate pastor who had been plainly coveting Jim's pulpit.

We lost Jim to a sex scandal. And to this day, I still maintain he was innocent.

I could explain how Jim, when he was counseling with a woman, always left the door to his office open, and eventually removed the door altogether. How his wife, who worked as the church secretary, was always present when Jim was with a woman, never leaving him alone. How Jim always made sure that he never met with a woman away from the Church proper, or even the physical basics that he stood 6'6", and he maybe had four feet of open floor space in his office and would have had to have been some sort of a contortionist to get jiggy with it in his office, (or anywhere else in the Church. That was one small building, with very little space.) I never understood how the hell anyone could have accused him.

I was even more surprised when the deacons forced him out. Part of what they used to push him out the door was a credit card which was acquired in the name of the church without Jim's okay, a charge for a room at a Super 8 Motel, (Jim couldn't have been there when they said: He was in Norfolk, England, with his wife, visiting her dying father), and the testimony of a woman who admitted she'd been boffing any guy in church she thought she could get to drop his pants. (Yes, she admitted this publicly. I will never understand some people.)

One of those who turned against Jim was a Deacon that Jim had talked with about his collection of Playboy centerfolds, prominently displayed on his garage walls. This is a Baptist Deacon, with centerfolds. I appreciate attractive girls as much as, if not more than, the average guy. But, if you're serving in a position like that, you have certain standards to uphold. The centerfolds kind of detracted from that.

Brother John, the Deacon in question, stirred the pot by spreading rumors about Jim selling off the land the Church was on, and accusing his daughter of some rather curious behavior. (Pretty tough when you're literally working in everyone's eyesight.)

Jim left. He tried to rebuild in Oregon, was literally chased down by a former member who dredged up the false testimony used against him, and ultimately gave up. He's now a hospital administrator. (Yes, he's back doing what he told us we should do for AIDS patients. Jim walks it the way he talks it.)

I am a truck driver. I have always wanted to be a writer. That's frowned upon in the Church. The Church, from what I've seen, wants conformity. To a point, I understand this. Most people who declare "I'm a nonconformist" are simply lazy slobs. The true nonconformist works every bit as hard as his counterpart clerking in the supermarket or working on the assembly line, and is every bit as disciplined, (perhaps more so). But these are people who do not necessarily work in the fields that are deemed "acceptable" by the FoPs.

Over the years, I've been told I should simply quit thinking about writing. I need to get a good job, with benefits, so that I can tithe to the Church, and be a Good Christian. Why, I could become a Friend of the Pastor!

Sure. I could deny everything I read in the Bible about how a Christian is supposed to be compassionate, kind, merciful, forgiving. I could be just like the people who ran Jim out of the ministry. (Funny; out of all the ministers I met while working in Christian radio, when my grandmother was dying, Jim was the only one who wanted to come see her, and offer her any comfort as her health was failing from liver cancer.)

Let's go one step further, shall we? Testimonies are big in church. Back when I attended, it was great to hear Testimonies of how Jesus was working in our lives.

Sucker.

No, that wasn't what what Testimonies were for. They were to be dissected, studied, examined for any faults, and then used against the the witness. Written testimonies were taken and the words used against you when you left the Church. See! He was never one of Us! (No, you don't want to know how often I saw that, and how often I protested against it.) The Church was never wrong in its actions. You were never right. Guilt was the weapon of choice: How DARE you leave the haven of God's grace!

See, this wouldn't be quite so bad, except that as a Christian, you claim the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells the Christian. The Holy Spirit directs the Christian's actions.

And the Christian's actions, more often than not, denies the very presence of the Holy Spirit, even as the Christian proclaims God's forgiveness. The actions deny God.

And me? I'm just a truck driver. As one pastor told me, I haven't a clue about the depth of God's love, of the Mysteries of the Gospel. Of God's Holiness. I should look to the Pastor, to the deacons/elders/layministers (the latter of which I was once), and accept their guidance.

Except from what I could see from their example, there was no God. Who was I to argue?

And what becomes to appalling is that I have friends who are devout Christians, people who try to live what they believe. I can name names, show you how they try to serve Christ, and cite examples of their service. This list would include my wife, who is not accepted in most churches because she's a divorced woman. Of course, Peggy and I will celebrate 24 years of marriage in February. That's longer than Mike Warnke has been married in any of his marriages, but he can preach from the pulpit. He can still fill an auditorium. He's forgiven.

Peggy is not. She can't possibly know the deeper things of God. She's been divorced.

You can ignore the contradictions of Scripture when there's compassion and acceptance within the congregation. When there isn't that compassion or acceptance, you dare not ignore them.

Dr. Chuck Swindoll once noted that the strongest evidence for the existence of God is a changed life. I would add to that: Cruelty done in the name of Christ is still cruelty. It's no change at all.

I know this crowd well. And I refuse to participate any further.

[Zep]

Jesus would still weep.

[Roadtoad]

Not as far as I can see...

http://www.intersectcommunity.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/buddy_jesus.jpg

[Steelmage]

That some churches will not except a divorced woman is not a surprise since Christianity is a patriarchal religion. It reminds me of what my mother said to my "Christian friend", "You church will forgive a rapist or murder, but you will not forgive a prostitute." Patriarchal religions are by their nature have a tendency to be sexist and racist.

[kurious_kathy]

That some churches will not except a divorced woman is not a surprise since Christianity is a patriarchal religion. It reminds me of what my mother said to my "Christian friend", "You church will forgive a rapist or murder, but you will not forgive a prostitute." Patriarchal religions are by their nature have a tendency to be sexist and racist.

You guys must be going to the wrong churches if they are hung up on legalism? Yes divorce is a sin, but all sin except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is forgiven by the Lord. I was divorced when I met CD and I remarried. It's ironic I was going through my first divorce when I was led to a local Calvary Chapel and heard the teaching on what the Lord wants marriage to be in 1 Cor. 7. It broke my heart to hear the teaching on marriage in 1Cor. 7 beacause I was not raised with this knowledge and I needed it. Jesus wants to hold our marriages together and all churches need to focus on helping.

Are you guys sure you are reading people right in these churches? If it's a legalistic crowd then by all means I say get another church to fellowship in and get the support for your marriage. I also have many single moms I try to support who have a hard time feeling judged for being divorced. I see Satan trying to mess with peoples perception more than what is actually going on. Christians are called to love.

[Roadtoad]

Oh, Gawd. She's BAAAAACK.

Kathy, before you respond, do you actually READ what someone has to say? Seriously.

The kind of legalism you say is not supposed to be present in Churches does exist, and it's dressed up in "love." It's abuse. Plain and simple.

You're trying to help single moms? Great. That's a start. That's a hell of a lot better than most others. But you are not the norm. The kind of rejection and hate which most divorced women and men endure in Churches, in spite of a 50% divorce rate among Christians, is damned common. And divorce is NOT forgiven.

Please, for TFSM's sake, READ before you post.

[kurious_kathy]

Oh, Gawd. She's BAAAAACK.

Kathy, before you respond, do you actually READ what someone has to say? Seriously.

The kind of legalism you say is not supposed to be present in Churches does exist, and it's dressed up in "love." It's abuse. Plain and simple.

You're trying to help single moms? Great. That's a start. That's a hell of a lot better than most others. But you are not the norm. The kind of rejection and hate which most divorced women and men endure in Churches, in spite of a 50% divorce rate among Christians, is damned common. And divorce is NOT forgiven.

Please, for TFSM's sake, READ before you post.
Well I would just like to ask you to remember none of us are perfect, that's why Jesus died. And we are taught through scripture if a brother or sister sins against us we are to go to him in love and try to correct him so he can see his error and repent. There are messed up people everywhere, in and out of church and repentence seems to be something to do daily for some of us.

I wish everyone would just remember when we point fingers we have 3 more pointing back at ourselves. I hope the Lord will continue the good work he has begun in me and all others that know him. Christians are wanting to become more Christlike if they are truly following Christ. It's not easy to let Jesus change us to his image sometimes, but if we are surrendered to him I like to think the rest follows. I myself want to be light and salt, how about you?

[Hokulele]

Well I would just like to ask you to remember none of us are perfect...


I am. I taught your Jesus everything he knows.


Everything.

[Thanz]

Roadtoad -

Thank you for your post here. When you didn't respond in the other thread, I thought maybe you were ignoring me (not an accusation of anything untoward - you have no obligation to respond to every post). Reading this really made me realize just how far apart our religious experiences are. I'll respond in more detail later, but as an example I had no idea what a "FoP" was until I got near the end and saw it spelled out as Friend of the Pastor. And I am still not entirely sure what that lofty status entails.

Later I will post a snippet of my background, so that you can hopefully have an understanding of where I am coming from in these discussions.

[Thanz]

So here is the longer post about my religious background, to give Roadtoad (and others) an idea of where I am coming from in religious discussions.

Firstly, I live in Toronto, one of the most multicultural cities in the world. I have never experienced the racism that Roadtoad has referred to in his post and am understandably horrified by it. I’ve never known anyone that thought apartheid was a good idea, or that other ethnicities were inherently inferior. Well, my Chinese first year undergrad roommate once joked that his girlfriend was a terrible driver as she was “a woman and Chinese - it’s a brutal combination”. Not the same at all, is it?

So, the city I live in and the people with whom I interact come from a base of tolerance and integration rather than intolerance and segregation.

I grew up Roman Catholic, and went to Catholic schools. Not the kind of Catholic schools that you see the stereotypes of, with nuns snapping rulers at people. In Ontario, due to a quirk of the Constitution, the Catholic school system is publically funded in parallel to the regular public system (not as well funded, but publically funded nonetheless). As a result, my schools were a lot like public schools. We had mass once in a while, and religion courses were a required part of the curriculum, and in high school we had uniforms. But other than that, pretty close to the public system.

By “Religion classes” I do not mean “indoctrination classes”. I was actually encouraged to think for myself. We learned about religions other than Christianity. We learned about various philosophical proofs for the existence of God. In my last year, I did a project on homosexuality and related issues such as gay marriage (which I am in favour of). I got an A on the project and received a religious studies award at graduation. I don’t mention this to toot my own horn - rather, to dispel the notion that I was somehow brainwashed or that conformity was prized over independent thinking.

When I became engaged to my wife, we had to decide what we were going to do church-wise. She was raised in a United tradition, loosely, but her father had been Anglican. Similarly, my mother was raised Anglican and converted to RC when she married my dad (who also shifted from Ukranian Catholic). We met in the middle of United and RC at Anglican. The Anglican doctrines were closer to my own way of thinking (women can be priests, etc.). My uncle was (and is) active in the Anglican community and he recommended a church to us. Our conversion process? Showing up. It was very inclusive and welcoming and we felt at home.

After marriage we moved into our first house and sought a church closer to home. The church we are at now seems to be everything your experience wasn’t, Roadtoad. We are not expected to “tithe”, rather we are asked to give of our time, talents and treasure. While a guideline of what to give is suggested, there are no actual requirements. The head priest receives a modest salary and gives a not insignificant amount of it back to the church. We spend as much if not more on outreach and community support programs as we do on the costs of worship.

One example of the programs we participate in is Out of the Cold, a program shared by a group of Toronto churches that provide meals and shelter to the homeless over the cold winter months. Each church has an assigned night each week and we serve about 90 meals and are allowed 20 overnight guests. It is not changing the world, but it is helping those who need it.

I run one of the teams of ushers, and my wife has taught in the Godly Play Sunday school program. I have also performed in a couple of Pub Nights we’ve had (organized by my wife) in the church basement. I don’t think that this has elevated us to FoP status, whatever that may be, as we don’t have select clique of people. We do have church wardens, who are elected by the congregation. They act on the instructions of the congregation as a whole, however.

On the whole, our church is a good place to be. I like to think that it is quite welcoming. We certainly wouldn’t turn away or judge you or Peggy for having been divorced. I think our priest has been previously divorced. We had a parishioner who needed help in getting away from her domestic situation. She is either now divorced or in the process of it, and it has never been an issue. I don’t think it has occurred to anyone to make it an issue - other than to see if she needs help. Our assistant priest is a woman, and is currently offering a bible study program entitled “Babes of the New Testament” aimed at other women in the Church.

I hope that you can see how radically different my experience is from yours. I am trying desperately not to fall into the “no true scotsman” fallacy here, so let me just say that I am appalled at much of the treatment you have received and seen in churches in your area. It does not conform to what I would consider good behaviour (Christian or otherwise) and does not conform with what I take to be the central message of Jesus’ Ministry.

I don’t want to sound like I have never seen this kind of religious idiocy in my own life. One of my best friends from high school married the daughter of a Baptist minister. Both Christian, of course. But the parents of my friend had their priest talk to him and tell him that if he didn’t get married in the Catholic Church, he would be excommunicated. And the Baptist minister father of the bride refused to walk her down the aisle for the sole reason that she was marrying a Roman Catholic (they had no problem with my friend personally). Sheer religious bigoted idiocy. As a result, both are now soured on religion and don’t go to church at all.

I am embarrassed to be lumped into the same category as these people. This is why I wrote my original response to you, asking that we Christians not be painted with such a broad brush. There are those of us out there who, while we would really like for you to come to church, understand that this is your decision to make and do not hate you for making it.

Thanks for listening.

[Darth Rotor]

That some churches will not except a divorced woman is not a surprise since Christianity is a patriarchal religion. It reminds me of what my mother said to my "Christian friend", "You church will forgive a rapist or murder, but you will not forgive a prostitute." Patriarchal religions are by their nature have a tendency to be sexist and racist.
Really? Have you looked into the story of Mary Magdalene, purpotedly a prostitute by Church tradition?

Care to try again?

FWIW: Are you aware that Linda Lovelace transitioned from porn actress to Born Again? I remember well her public renunciation of the porn industry. It made some news, back in the day.
Around 1976, she was slated to play the title role in the big-budget erotic movie, Laure. According to the movie's producer Ovidio Assonitis, Lovelace was, "very much on drugs," at the time; she had already signed on when she suddenly decided that "God had changed her life," refused to do any nudity and even took umbrage against a statue of the Venus de Milo on the set because of its exposed breasts. She was consequently replaced by French actress Annie Belle.
I think it's funny that Linda Lovelace (her stage name) used the Lois Lane/Lana Lang double L convention from the Superman comics. :cool:

[Mr Clingford]

Bloody hell, Roadtoad, what a bunch of experiences It's mind-blowing what has been said and done to you and those you know. If I had your experiences I think I would struggle with my faith more than I have so far. My experiences of churches and Christians is very different, with a lot of honest people doing lots of good things.

Why did you leave the episcopal church?

[Steelmage]

Really? Have you looked into the story of Mary Magdalene, purpotedly a prostitute by Church tradition?

Care to try again?

FWIW: Are you aware that Linda Lovelace transitioned from porn actress to Born Again? I remember well her public renunciation of the porn industry. It made some news, back in the day.

I think it's funny that Linda Lovelace (her stage name) used the Lois Lane/Lana Lang double L convention from the Superman comics. :cool:

That does not mean anything, this may be a tradition but not one that I see the church practice. I am talking about christianity in general. For a man to go screw around is more forgiveable then a woman. But seeing by the reply, your probably a man.
By the way I have talk with many a christian, and the general attitude is that it is more look down upon for a woman to divorce (or even a sexual fling) then a man.

[Roadtoad]

Thanks for listening.

Actually, Thanz, I was glad to hear it. It gives a person hope, knowing that not all people of faith are religious trolls like Kurious Kathy. Hopefully, if I can get things straightened out, I look forward to sharing a beer and a cigar with you.

Stay Safe.

[kurious_kathy]

Bloody hell, Roadtoad, what a bunch of experiences It's mind-blowing what has been said and done to you and those you know. If I had your experiences I think I would struggle with my faith more than I have so far. My experiences of churches and Christians is very different, with a lot of honest people doing lots of good things.

Why did you leave the episcopal church?
Yes RT I agree with Mr Clingford my experience has been quite good in the church. I was the one who felt like the black sheep of the family come home and everyone welcomed me back even though I was away from the Lord for many many years. I did nothing but cry that first year of women's Bible study as God's word started teaching, healing, and making me new. It hurts sometimes to hear the truth but we need it. God has to deal with sin and it's good to have conviction, it's not about judging eachother as you make it sound. God says if we confess our sins one to another he is faithful to forgive us. The trouble seems to be when people do not confess and try to make excuses to keep on sinning. Christians are not going to go around telling others it's okay nor should anyone think it is to live a life of sin. No excuses we all need forgiveness!
I have often thought of this concept "if people do not have God's forgiveness then they cannot forgive others, we can't give what we don't have ourselves." Does that make sense to anyone here? Just an observation I have but I do seem to see it as evidence in this world. People just do not want to be nice, loving, or forgiving and that really bugs me.

[Roadtoad]

Yes RT I agree with Mr Clingford my experience has been quite good in the church. I was the one who felt like the black sheep of the family come home and everyone welcomed me back even though I was away from the Lord for many many years. I did nothing but cry that first year of women's Bible study as God's word started teaching, healing, and making me new. It hurts sometimes to hear the truth but we need it. God has to deal with sin and it's good to have conviction, it's not about judging eachother as you make it sound. God says if we confess our sins one to another he is faithful to forgive us. The trouble seems to be when people do not confess and try to make excuses to keep on sinning. Christians are not going to go around telling others it's okay nor should anyone think it is. No excuses we all need forgiveness!

Kathy, the reason I left is because the majority of people I knew in the church were just like you.

Just. Go. Away.

[Hokulele]

<snip> it's not about judging each other <snip>

The trouble seems to be when people do not confess and try to make excuses to keep on sinning. Christians are not going to go around telling others it's okay nor should anyone think it is. No excuses we all need forgiveness!


Sounds pretty judgemental to me.

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy, the reason I left is because the majority of people I knew in the church were just like you.

Just. Go. Away.
No RT I do believe God wants me to stop witnessing to others and sharing what I know. Why are you so mean to me? I feel like you are taking your hostility out on me because of your past bad church experiences and I have done nothing to hurt you, NOTHING!

[Robert Oz]

Christians are wanting to become more Christlike if they are truly following Christ. It's not easy to let Jesus change us to his image sometimes, but if we are surrendered to him I like to think the rest follows. I myself want to be light and salt, how about you?


Just heading out to curse some fig trees. :duck:

[Roadtoad]

Another lie. I've already listed your evil acts. Had you read them instead of deciding to ignore them, perpetuating your false witness, you might have realized just how much pain you are causing.

You are doing a great deal to hurt me, by hurting the people I respect and care about.

Go. Away.

[Hokulele]

No RT I do believe God wants me to stop witnessing to others and sharing what I know. Why are you so mean to me? I feel like you are taking your hostility out on me because of your past bad church experiences and I have done nothing to hurt you, NOTHING!


Oh look, you are being judgemental again.

And claiming to read his mind. Gunning for the million?

[Roadtoad]

Just heading out to curse some fig trees. :duck:

:D

[Roadtoad]

Gunning for the million?

If she is, she's firing blanks.

[kurious_kathy]

Sounds pretty judgemental to me.
Christians are just sharing our knowledge of what God tells us sin is and people get upset. Yes sin does hurt us that is why God warns us to not do it because sin has consequences in everyones life. Isn't it better to be warned when something is just not right? Sin is not right and Christians just dare confront the real issue and people get upset. Sorry the truth hurts but it's better to repent than to ignore the reality. Our world needs help and God wants to help us. I need his help, don't you?

[Hokulele]

Christians are just sharing our knowledge of what God tells us sin is and people get upset.


Because it is unfounded judgement. Remember, you were the one claiming Christians are non-judgemental.

Yes sin does hurt us that is why God warns us to not do it because sin has consequences in everyones life.


There is no such thing as sin. There are only morals and ethics developed by people to allow society to flourish. No god required.

Isn't it better to be warned when something is just not right?


Yes. Your self-righteous condescension is just not right. Try actually listening to people's stories before running off at the mouth.

Sin is not right and Christians just dare confront the real issue and people get upset.


Homosexuality is a sin? Judgemental BS.
Institutional sexism? Judgemental BS.
Thought crimes? Judgemental BS.

And you wonder why people get upset?

Sorry the truth hurts but it's better to repent than to ignore the reality.


Well, I have seen you ignoring people's reality and trying to substitute your own. Pretty abominal behavior since you seem to be asking me.

Our world needs help and God wants to help us. I need his help, don't you?


Nope. My world is actually pretty nice. Of course, living on Maui doesn't hurt. At the moment, the only thing I can think of that would possibly make it any nicer would be a chance to share another dinner with Roadtoad and his delightful bride.

[Roadtoad]

Christians are just sharing our knowledge of what God tells us sin is and people get upset. Yes sin does hurt us that is why God warns us to not do it because sin has consequences in everyones life. Isn't it better to be warned when something is just not right? Sin is not right and Christians just dare confront the real issue and people get upset. Sorry the truth hurts but it's better to repent than to ignore the reality. Our world needs help and God wants to help us. I need his help, don't you?

I'm going to make this brief. Criminal Minds is on, and I enjoy sitting with Peggy and watching it.

No, Kathy. You're not simply here sharing your knowledge. You have lied about that. You lie constantly. You have no knowledge, save for the smattering of pseudospiritual cliches you've memorized from your pastor and from the Christian broadcasts you've listened to. (Remember: I was once a Christian Broadcaster, so I'm already familiar with them.)

How do you define sin, Kathy? To me, it's anything which detracts from life. Period. That not only includes the Heavy Seven Deadlies, but the sanctimonious prattle you have spewed towards people who have made a reasonable request: Show us evidence for what you claim to know. No evidence? No witness. It's that simple.

Claus Larsen simplifies it even more: "Evidence?" IT IS A REASONABLE REQUEST. You have, however, ignored it from the moment you arrived.

I'm reminded of a pastor who used to post here, Stamenflicker. He didn't preach, generally. He simply offered another view. I respected him.

You preach. You offer no evidence for any of your assertions. I don't respect you.

I will do this once more, and I hope for once you will listen. I am married to a devout Christian lady. If you would shut your mouth and quit preaching, and maybe read some of what I've written about my wife, you might learn a bit about what a Christian woman is supposed to be. You might be interested to learn, for example, that Peggy has been praying for Robert Lancaster ever since she heard about his stroke, and for Robert's wife, Susan.

Anything from you on that score?

Peggy makes school clothes for needy kids in our neighborhood.

What have you done, Kathy?

Peggy prays for members of this board. She has never once signed on, and never once preached to members, even the one time when we went to TAM. She listened, answered truthfully when people asked what she believed, and basically, just took the opportunity to get to know people. (She even likes Claus. Nobody's perfect.*)

*Yes, Claus, I'm picking on you! :D

No, Kathy. I have yet to be mean to you. I'm trying very hard to be civil towards you. But you are pressing it, and even I have my limits. Keep it up, and you'll get a faceful of mean, and you may wish you hadn't asked for it.

Go. Away.

[Roadtoad]

Nope. My world is actually pretty nice. Of course, living on Maui doesn't hurt. At the moment, the only thing I can think of that would possibly make it any nicer would be a chance to share another dinner with Roadtoad and his delightful bride.

Counting the days, Hoke... :)

[articulett]

Christians are just sharing our knowledge of what God tells us sin is and people get upset. Yes sin does hurt us that is why God warns us to not do it because sin has consequences in everyones life. Isn't it better to be warned when something is just not right? Sin is not right and Christians just dare confront the real issue and people get upset. Sorry the truth hurts but it's better to repent than to ignore the reality. Our world needs help and God wants to help us. I need his help, don't you?



Yes, and Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and Moonies are doing the same!-- So did Jim Jones. So do the Scientologists. Everyone want to share the divine truth. They all sound like you! You guys ought to bug each other-- you deserve each other, actually. We don't believe in divine truths. We don't believe in your woo any more than you believe in Scientology woo. You are as annoying as all those other cultists you find annoying.

We prefer evidence for our truth. It sucks when people inflict their beliefs on others... It sucks when the Muslims do it, and it sucks when your brand of fundy does it. It sucks when Fred Phelps does it, and it sucks when Scientologists do it. It sucks when you do it on a skeptics forum. Why can't you keep your faith as private as you keep your bowel habits, Kathy? Why can't you see that your "answer" is not everyone's answer. Has your religion made you that blind to how you are coming across? Why can't theists be as private and quiet as they want other cults to be? Why?

To us you are as afflicted as any brainwashed cult member-- how would you handle such a person?.... how would you like it if seemingly crazed people kept imagining themselves as having the answer for you? Nobody here wants to be more like you, Kathy! We're not out auditioning various truths to find out which one we should "believe in". You have no evidence, you listen to nobody, and you sound as crazy as the Phelps clan. And you are blind to it! YOu imagine persecution that isn't there. You never listen. And you are blind to how pushy and obnoxious you sound. I can't imagine that you are drawing anyone close to faith.

Your opinions and beliefs are not facts--and they are not supported by evidence. They are as crazy as the crazy assertions of other cultists. Really. YOu guys all think you have "the truth".

We choose our own role models, and here I think most people would rather read Roadtoad than your incessant Stepford godbot chatter. You aren't convincing anyone... perhaps you're really trying to convince yourself?

I think you are here to provoke and then you can imagine yourself the persecuted martyr. Merry Christmas.

Maybe your New Years Resolution ought to be to really listen to people-- in the same manner you wish to be listened to. Reflect what they say instead of endlessly going on and on about how fabu Jesus is to you.

[Hokulele]

Counting the days, Hoke... :)


Ditto!!! There is a 40% chance I will be in your neighborhood next month, but I don't want to get my hopes up until the client confirms. If it happens, I will definitely give you and Normal Dude a heads up.

[RandFan]

On the whole, our church is a good place to be. I like to think that it is quite welcoming. We certainly wouldn’t turn away or judge you or Peggy for having been divorced. I think our priest has been previously divorced. We had a parishioner who needed help in getting away from her domestic situation. She is either now divorced or in the process of it, and it has never been an issue. I don’t think it has occurred to anyone to make it an issue - other than to see if she needs help. Our assistant priest is a woman, and is currently offering a bible study program entitled “Babes of the New Testament” aimed at other women in the Church.Thanz,

I too respect you. I come off as pretty intolerant of religion and that's not true. I just argue vociferously on this forum.

I'm happy to live and let live. It's just that I like to debate and I have a bit of ego. Many people that I respect the most are people I disagree with. We don't have to agree to live in the same world and get along.

I wish the best for you and I want to take the opportunity to freely confess that there are a lot of great Christians and other religious people who are both sincere and earnest in their desire to help other people.

Thank you for your post.

[articulett]

I'm way more vocal on this forum, but I feel like it's my right to be. This is my skeptics haven. In real life, I don't think most people even know I'm a non-believer. I tend to avoid conversations about faith or change the subject or keep to myself.

But when people "inflict" their opinion on me, they really ought to be prepared to hear my opinion of their opinion. Freedom of speech isn't just for the people who agree with you. I truly feel the same way about all religions that I do about Scientology--

"If it works for you, great! But I don't want to hear about it lest my responses are not what you are hoping for. I don't think faith is a means of knowledge, and I don't think 'belief' entitles anyone to special respect. I find the whole thing superstitious and embarrassing--like I"m being forced to pretend that the Emperor is wearing clothes.."

[arthwollipot]

No RT I do believe God wants me to stop witnessing to others and sharing what I know. Why are you so mean to me? I feel like you are taking your hostility out on me because of your past bad church experiences and I have done nothing to hurt you, NOTHING!Do you really believe that, Kathy? Can someone who offers a smoke to an ex-smoker really be doing no harm? Can a prostitute do no harm to a married man? What you have done is exactly the same. What's more, you have been asked (very politely, I might add) to stop doing it, and you haven't. You and your inane preachings are unwelcome.

You turned up in a thread that was started by someone who had recently lost her religion and was seeking support. You turned up and started preaching at her. Do you honestly not see how that was not only rude but hurtful?

Please, Kathy. Do not do this. I'm begging you.

[RandFan]

You turned up in a thread that was started by someone who had recently lost her religion and was seeking support. You turned up and started preaching at her. Do you honestly not see how that was not only rude but hurtful?:( Wow. Thats a new low.

[arthwollipot]

:( Wow. Thats a new low.It was the "How to you live with no God" thread from which this one was split.

[Darth Rotor]

That does not mean anything, this may be a tradition but not one that I see the church practice. I am talking about christianity in general. For a man to go screw around is more forgiveable then a woman. But seeing by the reply, your probably a man.
By the way I have talk with many a christian, and the general attitude is that it is more look down upon for a woman to divorce (or even a sexual fling) then a man.
How do you explain prostitutes in the Philippines going to church on Sunday morning? Please, share your bigotry insight with us. While you are at it, try steteotyping and confirmation bias while you are at it. Oh, wait, you already did.

Yes I am a man, you could have guessed that from sheer odds on the internet. You have a chip on your shoulder about men? The way you wrote that indicates yes, but that may the the internet robbing subtle cues.

I'm not unfamiliar with a thing called a double standard, the old "slut" versus "stud" thing about sexually promiscuous persons of differing genders. I went to high school, albeit a few decades ago. That paradigm does not seem to have changed.

You don't have to be Christian to pull that stunt.

DR

[Thanz]

Actually, Thanz, I was glad to hear it. It gives a person hope, knowing that not all people of faith are religious trolls like Kurious Kathy. Hopefully, if I can get things straightened out, I look forward to sharing a beer and a cigar with you.

Wait, wait, wait. You SMOKE? And DRINK? In that case, all bets are off. Mr. Toad (if that is your real name - I'm beginning to have doubts) you are going straight to hell, no handbasket, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.






















:p

[RandFan]

It was the "How to you live with no God" thread from which this one was split.I wasn't clear. Sorry. I was reffering to Kathy.

[Hokulele]

How do you explain prostitutes in the Philippines going to church on Sunday morning? Please, share your bigotry insight with us. While you are at it, try steteotyping and confirmation bias while you are at it. Oh, wait, you already did.

Yes I am a man, you could have guessed that from sheer odds on the internet. You have a chip on your shoulder about men? The way you wrote that indicates yes, but that may the the internet robbing subtle cues.

I'm not unfamiliar with a thing called a double standard, the old "slut" versus "stud" thing about sexually promiscuous persons of differing genders. I went to high school, albeit a few decades ago. That paradigm does not seem to have changed.

You don't have to be Christian to pull that stunt.

DR


Well, there is a stigma against divorce in the New Testament (thanks Paul, you miserable sod). I do think Steelmage has the complete wrong end of the stick. The issue with divorce had to do with adultery, not prostitution per se. I am on the road today and do not have my bible to hand, but I think it was in one of the Timothies where Paul indicated that divorce was unacceptable, and remarriage was adultery, plain and simple.

The bible, both testaments, were very ambiguous on the issue of prostitution. On one hand, it seemed very common, even accepted, and Jesus certainly had no qualms about associating with known prostitutes. On the other hand, "the whore of Babylon" doesn't really sound like much of a compliment.

Over all, if you were to try and keep to the rules outlined by the entire New Testament, divorce and remarriage is unthinkable. If you are comfortable following only the dictates from Jesus himself, let your freak flag fly!

The multitude of interpretation of scripture is what makes Christianity interesting to study (see the "Scriptural Literacy" thread, particularly the last 10 pages or so for some goodies).


ETA: Serves me right for trying to do this from memory. I found an on-line version of the RSV and it was Jesus condemning divorce and remarriage. Mark, chapter 10, has all the gory details. Although, the poetic what God has joined, let no man tear asunder is still a lovely line.

[Steelmage]

How do you explain prostitutes in the Philippines going to church on Sunday morning? Please, share your bigotry insight with us. While you are at it, try steteotyping and confirmation bias while you are at it. Oh, wait, you already did.

Yes I am a man, you could have guessed that from sheer odds on the internet. You have a chip on your shoulder about men? The way you wrote that indicates yes, but that may the the internet robbing subtle cues.

I'm not unfamiliar with a thing called a double standard, the old "slut" versus "stud" thing about sexually promiscuous persons of differing genders. I went to high school, albeit a few decades ago. That paradigm does not seem to have changed.

You don't have to be Christian to pull that stunt.

DR

Then St. Augustine must like you, or you never read anything he has written. While your at it you may want to look at Genesis, where a woman causes all the problems in the world because "she" listen to the devil in disguise of a snake. Also in Genesis, the first woman was Lilith who did not take too kindly with Adam wanting to be on top, and not equal. So she left him, god cursed her children. Then god made a woman out of Adam's rid (another hint from a patriarchal outlook of a woman's inferiority) was obedient to Adam. But she was flawed, and listened to the serpent, took a bit out of the apple. This is also a church tradition.
What I wrote are facts, that appearently trouble you because you do not see flaws in the church. Patriarchal religions are male-bias whether you like it or not.
Also, members of the mafia go to church and observe their religion yet practice criminal behavior, explain that one.
If you do not know about the double standard as the rest of us has then you may want to get out once and a while and talk with people.

[Roadtoad]

Where in Genesis is Lilith mentioned?

[RandFan]

Where in Genesis is Lilith mentioned?Lilith (http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~rrelke/lilith.htm) is part of the Hebrew Apochrapha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphal).

[Roadtoad]

Lilith (http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~rrelke/lilith.htm) is part of the Hebrew Apochrapha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphal).

And thus, you've answered the question.

I'd offer a gold star, but I'm fresh out. Will you settle for bronze?

[articulett]

starfish for randfan: :starfish:

[RandFan]

And thus, you've answered the question.

I'd offer a gold star, but I'm fresh out. Will you settle for bronze?

starfish for randfan: :starfish::)

Hey, I can do something right from time to time.

[Roadtoad]

You're doing better than me! :o

[AkuManiMani]

Also in Genesis, the first woman was Lilith who did not take too kindly with Adam wanting to be on top, and not equal. So she left him, god cursed her children. Then god made a woman out of Adam's rid (another hint from a patriarchal outlook of a woman's inferiority) was obedient to Adam. But she was flawed, and listened to the serpent, took a bit out of the apple. This is also a church tradition.

I don't mean to nitpick but...

I don't know what version of the Garden myth you're reading from but the Genesis version has no mention or reference at all to the character Lilith. To be sure there is a very patriarchal tone through out much of the bible, you have to keep in mind that in the cultural context of the times in which these works were written/conceived patriarchy was the rule of the day. Its not surprising that the religious thinking at this time would take the patriarchal views of the day for granted.

With that said, contemporary believers tend to interpret their religious views through the lens of the culture they live in. Its pretty obvious that not all christians adhere to the misogynistic views of biblical times. There are even churches with female pastors and leadership.

What I wrote are facts, that appearently trouble you because you do not see flaws in the church. Patriarchal religions are male-bias whether you like it or not.

I fail to see how your 'facts' would trouble Darth Rotor because

1) Much of what you've presented as 'fact' is either inaccurate or solely personal opinion

and

2) As far as I'm aware, Darth Rotor isn't a christian.

[Steelmage]

Thought Lilith was mention in the bible, doing a google search seems I was wrong on that, but I never stated Darth Rotor was christian.

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/7evelilith.html

In an effort to explain inconsistencies in the Old Testament, there developed in Jewish literature a complex interpretive system called the midrash which attempts to reconcile biblical contradictions and bring new meaning to the scriptural text.

Employing both a philological method and often an ingenious imagination, midrashic writings, which reached their height in the 2nd century CE, influenced later Christian interpretations of the Bible. Inconsistencies in the story of Genesis, especially the two separate accounts of creation, received particular attention. Later, beginning in the 13th century CE, such questions were also taken up in Jewish mystical literature known as the Kabbalah.

According to midrashic literature, Adam's first wife was not Eve but a woman named Lilith, who was created in the first Genesis account. Only when Lilith rebelled and abandoned Adam did God create Eve, in the second account, as a replacement.




Its pretty obvious that not all christians adhere to the misogynistic views of biblical times. There are even churches with female pastors and leadership.

Agreed, but only in recent times (I would say about 75 years or so).
I remember a few years (my grandmother passed away and had to take care of her lawn until the house was sold) a very christian couple was living next door. The man was yelling at her that she need to be subservant to him as it was mention in the bible. He even quoted the verses.

Now not everyone back then treated women badly, but the writers of the bible did not seem to look kindly at women.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

This is from the above website:

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.--1 Timothy 2:14-15

"The male and his female ..." Notice that in the Bible female animals are the property of male animals, as women are the property of men. 7:2
7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:8

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." In the Bible, women are the property of men; they are his possessions -- like an ox or an ass. 20:17

God explains how to go about selling your daughter -- and what to do if she fails to please her new master. Exodus 21:7
"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

God's instructions for taking a second wife. Exodus 21:10
"If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish."

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. Exodus 22:18

Their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods." God always blames the women; it is they who "go a whoring" and then "make" the men "go a whoring." Exodus 34:16

I could go on.

Before you give me that: "will all cultures back then treated women that way back then" no they did not.
Celts
http://www.uiweb.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/celtic/women/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Gender_and_sexual_norms

Spartans
http://www.formerfatguyblog.com/2007/08/28/women-of-sparta.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Role_of_women