Christopher Grinchens

[KingMerv00]

From Hitchens' column at slate.com (http://www.slate.com/id/2206713/?from=rss) (referring to the Christmas season):

As in such dismal banana republics, the dreary, sinister thing is that the official propaganda is inescapable. You go to a train station or an airport, and the image and the music of the Dear Leader are everywhere. You go to a more private place, such as a doctor's office or a store or a restaurant, and the identical tinny, maddening, repetitive ululations are to be heard. So, unless you are fortunate, are the same cheap and mass-produced images and pictures, from snowmen to cribs to reindeer. It becomes more than usually odious to switch on the radio and the television, because certain officially determined "themes" have been programmed into the system. Most objectionable of all, the fanatics force your children to observe the Dear Leader's birthday, and so (this being the especial hallmark of the totalitarian state) you cannot bar your own private door to the hectoring, incessant noise, but must have it literally brought home to you by your offspring.

I admit, I have a soft spot for Christopher Hitchens even though I disagree with him at times. I get to live vicariously through him when he insults people like Al Sharpton or Pat Robertson. A clever turn of phrase goes a long way with me. Looking at the article above though makes me think this guy needs a hug or maybe a visit from 4 ghosts.

[athon]

I can sympathise with his frustration over the confusion known as 'Xmas' extols.

I like this time of year. Don't get me wrong - I look forward to seeing my old friends and my family, to getting some time off work etc. What bothers me is two things-

One, it's pushed as a religious event, with the same old rhetoric of 'Christian values' being sold, which are really the same old golden-rules most communities on this planet embrace, regardless of which faith (if any) they embrace. Worse, it's sold as a 'time for families' by individualist cultures that normally couldn't care less about whether ma or pop is in a home or not. It's like the one time of year we're obliged to feel guilty about our grandparents, even though they're just as bad and rarely want their kids to take on any of the responsibility (read 'burden') in looking after them.

Two, it's all about gift giving. I hate that. I love Christmas being about having a few beers with mates, catching up with family and enjoying life. It's a celebration of relationships, and yet it's all about giving the nieces and nephews just more plastic junk that will be shortly destroyed and relegated to the historical strata of the toybox.

Give me the 'true' meaning of Christmas any year - showing appreciation for those I love by wanting to spend some time with them in a festive environment.

Athon

[ImaginalDisc]

I can't agree with Hitchens more. Take your Christmas insanity into private places. I never want to hear Christmas music again as long as I live.

[KingMerv00]

I appreciate that Hitchens finds the season ugly and commercial but is that really any excuse to take the vitriol and crank it to 11? I mean seriously, "Dear Leader"?

[ImaginalDisc]

I appreciate that Hitchens finds the season ugly and commercial but is that really any excuse to take the vitriol and crank it to 11? I mean seriously, "Dear Leader"?

Absolutely, yes.

[KingMerv00]

Absolutely, yes.

The issue is entirely subjective so I won't bother trying to prove you wrong. I'm still shocked that kitsch-overload is enough to induce vomiting.

[ImaginalDisc]

The issue is entirely subjective so I won't bother trying to prove you wrong. I'm still shocked that kitsch-overload is enough to induce vomiting.

In this country, a Walmart employee was trampled to death by people possessed with Christmas shopping dementia. Christmas is a time for innane music, rampant consumerism, lost wages, and general insanity. I could do without it, thanks.

[lionking]

The best time of the year, particularly if you have children. And I love carols.

[ImaginalDisc]

The best time of the year, particularly if you have children. And I love carols.

The same carrols that have been ullulated badly by carolers for over a hundred years?

[KingMerv00]

In this country, a Walmart employee was trampled to death by people possessed with Christmas shopping dementia.

Soccer games and Who concerts have had the same problem. Do you hate them as much?

Christmas is a time for innane music, rampant consumerism, lost wages, and general insanity. I could do without it, thanks.

I understand the hatred but I don't understand the magnitude.

[ImaginalDisc]

Soccer games and Who conserts have had the same problem. Do you hate them as much?

Critics of soccer and The Who aren't painted as some sort of heartless grinches for having the audacity to criticise them. There's a double standard here.

[KingMerv00]

Critics of soccer and The Who aren't painted as some sort of heartless grinches for having the audacity to criticise them. There's a double standard here.

If a critic of soccer compared sports fans to followers of Kim Jong Il, I would use a single standard.

[lionking]

The same carrols that have been ullulated badly by carolers for over a hundred years?

Ah, you should watch "Carols from Kings"

Hitchins is entitled to his opinion, as are you, but to compare people who enjoy Christmas to brainless followers of a totalitarian leader is over the top. Expressing an opinion is fine, being judgmental about people who do not share that opinion is not.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I like Christmas with the lights and carols for purely nostalgic and emotional reasons. It gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. Never had much to do with Jesus in my family.

[RandFan]

I'm a huge Hitchens fan and I sympathize with him. However I love the season. I just love it. :)

BTW: I live in the high desert in California and we never have white Christmas.

This is my front yard and street. Taken today.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1228/snowbw1.jpg

[joobz]

Two, it's all about gift giving. I hate that. I love Christmas being about having a few beers with mates, catching up with family and enjoying life. It's a celebration of relationships, and yet it's all about giving the nieces and nephews just more plastic junk that will be shortly destroyed and relegated to the historical strata of the toybox.
Hey! buying each other rounds = gift giving in my book. I'd love a chance to exchange some gifts with you.

[joobz]

I can't agree with Hitchens more. Take your Christmas insanity into private places. I never want to hear Christmas music again as long as I live.
Ahh, Do you need a hug.
Let me love you!!!!!!
"Oh, the weather outside is ..
join us... join us
We all float down here....
frightful, and the fire is so delightful."

[joobz]

In this country, a Walmart employee was trampled to death by people possessed with Christmas shopping dementia. Christmas is a time for innane music, rampant consumerism, lost wages, and general insanity. I could do without it, thanks.
Ah, yes....
We should always use the extremist subset as proof that the general form is bad.

That's why
1.) Stalin was an atheist, therefore atheism leads to killing people.
and
2.) This car is a ford, therefore all cars are fords.
are valid logical arguments.



PS: I'm just bustin your chops. I don't really care if you hate this season, as I can understand why some people do. However, I love seeing my son enjoy himself and I look forward to seeing family. I just wish I had a chance to see all my friends and family during the holidays.

[ImaginalDisc]

Ahh, Do you need a hug.
Let me love you!!!!!!
"Oh, the weather outside is ..
join us... join us
We all float down here....
frightful, and the fire is so delightful."


I just specifically said I hate Christmas music. There is nothing wrong with me just because I don't like it, so why would you subject me to it?

[joobz]

I just specifically said I hate Christmas music. There is nothing wrong with me just because I don't like it, so why would you subject me to it?
did you miss the body snatcher/Stephen King It reference I did?

[ImaginalDisc]

PS: I'm just bustin your chops. I don't really care if you hate this season, as I can understand why some people do. However, I love seeing my son enjoy himself and I look forward to seeing family. I just wish I had a chance to see all my friends and family during the holidays.

If your son loves the season, cool. I don't see why that's a reason for every single shop I enter from the end of November to the first of January to play the same list of songs.

It doesn't even make any sense. Easter is the central miracle of Christianity, not Christmas, but which holiday gets a month long Saturnalia of Saccharine and Santas?

[ImaginalDisc]

did you miss the body snatcher/Stephen King It reference I did?

Honestly, I didn't realize it was a joke.

[joobz]

If your son loves the season, cool. I don't see why that's a reason for every single shop I enter from the end of November to the first of January to play the same list of songs.

It doesn't even make any sense. Easter is the central miracle of Christianity, not Christmas, but which holiday gets a month long Saturnalia of Saccharine and Santas?
Oh, It's highly commercial. I actually view Christmas as a secular holiday that has religous roots. Like Halloween.(Which I also love).

I completely understand your dislike of the whole thing. I feel the same way about most sports. Why should I care that the super bowl is coming?

[joobz]

Honestly, I didn't realize it was a joke.
I guess another example of how tone is easily lost in posts. I should have used a smilie. Sorry about that.

[ImaginalDisc]

I guess another example of how tone is easily lost in posts. I should have used a smilie. Sorry about that.

Nah, it's just that you sound exactly the way my grandmothers both behave on Christmas. As though by bombarding me with Christmas music and making me wear some horrendous sweater on an 80 degree Miami night I'll start to like Christmas.

Sorry, abuela you sort of ruined Christmas for me when I had to pry you away from beer while you were calling people we didn't even know to come to our home for Christmas breakfast, and we wound up roasting ham, making pancakes, bacon, crepes, and other goodies until six in the evening. You ruined Christmas you old drunk, so shut the Hell up.

[RandFan]

Take your Christmas insanity into private places. I never want to hear Christmas music again as long as I live.You really get angry over music? Life is much too short. Why do so many people have to get worked up over things that can only upset you if you let it upset you. I could understand if it were those damn prayers in Muslim countries that drone on and on 365 days a year. But Christmas music? I guess everyone has a right to have something to piss them off.

I don't like light beer. It's low calorie beer and 12 ounces of low calorie beer will fill you up just as much as 12 ounces of regular calorie beer.

I'm writing a letter to the editor and I'm starting a war on beer commercials. :)

[ImaginalDisc]

You really get angry over music? Life is much too short. Why do so many people have to get worked up over things that can only upset you if you let it upset you. I could understand if it were those damn prayers in Muslim countries that drone on and on 365 days a year. But Christmas music? I guess everyone has a right to have something to piss them off.

I don't like light beer. It's low calorie beer and 12 ounces of low calorie beer will fill you up just as much as 12 ounces of regular calorie beer.

I'm writing a letter to the editor and I'm starting a war on beer commercials. :)

There isn't a month long inescapable celebration of beer that. . .

OK, there is in Germany.

ETA: Seriously, though. My problem isnt that the holiday exists, it's that celebrating it takes up more and more time and gets tackier and tackier. My coworker for eight years used to play nothing but Christmas music from the first of Novmber to the end of January. Christmas decorations pop up in stores as soon as the Halloween decorations are cleared away.

It's not just a holiday, it's a month, or longer period where serious periodicals waste space on Christmas stuff, where shopping for anything I might actually need for 8.33% of my life becomes a struggle with people desperately trying to buy things because of some seasonal compulsion, and where pople who actually want to celebrate the holiday with their families have to work to cater to selfish idiots - such as my father who for 28 years had to work on Christmas to cater to the whims of others.

People can be so hyprocitical and so loud about Christmas, that's what bothers me.

[RandFan]

There isn't a month long inescapable celebration of beer that. . .

OK, there is in Germany.:) Don't get me wrong, I like the good looking women in the commercials so it's not all bad.

[CFLarsen]

Hitchens is first and foremost lashing out against the inescapable jumble of Christmas paraphernalia, and the harsh social pressure. Hence, the references to Dear Leader.

There are certainly also beautiful Christmas music. Bach's Weihnachtsoratorium is something I enjoy - also during summer. But I could do with less of the inane Christmas songs. Or, at least, write some new stuff.

A Walmart employee was trampled to death by people possessed with bargain shopping dementia. Christmas had nothing to do with it.

[Cavemonster]

I also really deplore the inescapability of Christmas music and decoration.

But, I'm assuming that other people genuinely enjoy it, so I chalk it up as part of the price to pay for living in this kind of free society.

I dislike most radio pop music just as much, and it is almost as hard to avoid all year long, but it's something to get used to.

[tanstaafl28]

I admit, I have a soft spot for Christopher Hitchens even though I disagree with him at times. I get to live vicariously through him when he insults people like Al Sharpton or Pat Robertson. A clever turn of phrase goes a long way with me. Looking at the article above though makes me think this guy needs a hug or maybe a visit from 4 ghosts.

I agree. Most of the "New Atheists" seem to have a mixture of admirable and not-so-admirable qualities about them. I am still in the process of trying to determine precisely what these qualities are. Work in progress...

I should like to point out that, despite a whole lot of revisionism, many of the traditions that have become associated with celebrating Christmas are really a hodge-podge of various pagan beliefs to which Christianity more or less "invited itself" into. As such, there is no reason why an atheist cannot enjoy the season without all the dogma added in. If Jesus was an actual historical figure, it is unlikely that he was born on December 25, there is no mention of a date in the bible (a point that caused the celebration to be banned in colonial Massachusetts for several decades).

[Undesired Walrus]

I just specifically said I hate Christmas music. There is nothing wrong with me just because I don't like it, so why would you subject me to it?

Let me take you by the arm and share some alcohol with you! I think you need a Santa hat placed on that old grinchy head of yours:

'Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow..
Oh, I wish it could be Christmas every...'

[bokonon]

The same carrols that have been ullulated badly by carolers for over a hundred years?
I'm not a big fan of carols, or carolers (or strolling mariachis, for that matter; I honestly don't like having people singing TO me), but that "Christmastime Is Here" jazz "standard" from the Charlie Brown show is a beautiful song, and I love hearing the instrumental version. I also have a soft spot for "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas", both instrumental and vocal. Neither of them have been around for over a hundred years.

[Undesired Walrus]

In the spirit of the season:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p297/ldl21/anonesense.jpg

[ImaginalDisc]

Let me take you by the arm and share some alcohol with you! I think you need a Santa hat placed on that old grinchy head of yours:

'Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow..
Oh, I wish it could be Christmas every...'

For that, you're on ignore.

Why do people seem to take positive delight in ramming Christmas down someone's throat if they don't like it? My former supervisor used to make me hang up the Christmas decorations.

[CFLarsen]

Stay out of crime, then...

[Damien Evans]

niIJ9Yb-xwQ
:D

[quixotecoyote]

ETA: Seriously, though. My problem isnt that the holiday exists, it's that celebrating it takes up more and more time and gets tackier and tackier. My coworker for eight years used to play nothing but Christmas music from the first of Novmber to the end of January. Christmas decorations pop up in stores as soon as the Halloween decorations are cleared away.


Your stores are running a bit slow. Stores around here has the Christmas stuff out at least a week before Halloween, maybe more. I know this because I had to hunt through rows and rows of Christmas dreck to find the Halloween decorations.

It's quite absurd and I'm with you on being largely turned off.

[CriticalThanking]

The same carrols that have been ullulated badly by carolers for over a hundred years?
To hear Chanticleer sing The First Noel is to be transported. To hear elementary school kids sing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer over and over again is to understand Dick Cheney's position on waterboarding.

I don't believe in dog and I hate the consumerism. But I love the family time together, the decorations and much of the music. Just the chance to tweak the evangelists by setting up my desktop pagan altar and sacrifice the Beanie Baby goat every year is worth hearing a percentage of music I don't like.

I wouldn't care if the holiday were a purely a celebration of the solstice as long as it included music. Solstice carols anyone? Rudolph - will you guide my sleigh on this, Newton's birthday?

CT

[I Ratant]

I'm a huge Hitchens fan and I sympathize with him. However I love the season. I just love it. :)

BTW: I live in the high desert in California and we never have white Christmas.

This is my front yard and street. Taken today.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1228/snowbw1.jpg
.
Yesterday, on a short stroll to the corner market.

[RandFan]

.
Yesterday, on a short stroll to the corner market.:) Where is this?

[I Ratant]

To hear Chanticleer sing The First Noel is to be transported. To hear elementary school kids sing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer over and over again is to understand Dick Cheney's position on waterboarding.

I don't believe in dog and I hate the consumerism. But I love the family time together, the decorations and much of the music. Just the chance to tweak the evangelists by setting up my desktop pagan altar and sacrifice the Beanie Baby goat every year is worth hearing a percentage of music I don't like.

I wouldn't care if the holiday were a purely a celebration of the solstice as long as it included music. Solstice carols anyone? Rudolph - will you guide my sleigh on this, Newton's birthday?

CT
.
Grinch alert!
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl70151.swf&video_id=Z_ypUnnqr8Y&rel=1&showsearch=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i3.ytimg.com/vi/Z_ypUnnqr8Y/hqdefault.jpg&sk=X-oB8v6p8qSbK2z20fgNXKEDUMQkqDIaC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&autoplay=0

[I Ratant]

:) Where is this?
.
Palmdale, where ALL the roads into and out of LA were closed yesterday.
Haven't had one like this since 1974, when it took me 4 hours to get from Palmdale to Burbank after the plant closed at 10 a.m.
Neighbor lady needed an hour to go the usual 12 minute trip home from work, and then it took a major effort to get her car out of street up the ramp to her car port!

[RandFan]

.
Palmdale, where ALL the roads into and out of LA were closed yesterday.
Haven't had one like this since 1974, when it took me 4 hours to get from Palmdale to Burbank after the plant closed at 10 a.m.
Neighbor lady needed an hour to go the usual 12 minute trip home from work, and then it took a major effort to get her car out of street up the ramp to her car port!:) That's what I figured but I wanted to be sure. I live just off of Avenue R.

[RandFan]

For that, you're on ignore.

Why do people seem to take positive delight in ramming Christmas down someone's throat if they don't like it? My former supervisor used to make me hang up the Christmas decorations.Dude, I've known you for some time and I would have never expected such a reaction. No way you should be forced to put up Christmas decorations. That's just pure and utter BS and I'm sincerely sorry your supervisor was such an ahole but I'm reasonably certain that there is no malicious intent behind the ribbing of fellow posters. Your reaction seems a tad bit irrational. I can see how Christmas could be annoying but it isn't harmful. I realize that it's a sensitive subject and I honestly don't mean to patronize or stir the pot. I can respect your opinion. However this is a public forum that values free speech, parody and mockery. Some folks are just taking the piss. To respond in a hurt way is to give it power that it doesn't deserve.

Sincere best of luck to you.

Cheers.

[G-K-4]

I'm with ImaginalDisc on this one. What I don't like about Christmas is the compulsory frivolity. Forced "fun" is no fun.


We all float down here....

I got your reference, Joobz. And it creeped me out. :eek:


Let me take you by the arm and share some alcohol with you! I think you need a Santa hat placed on that old grinchy head of yours

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about: mandatory merriment. It can't work.


I will be happy when Christ Mass is relegated to an annual two-hour ritual quietly pursued by the last remaining Christians. In the meantime, let us break up that holy day's monopoly on December by giving space to science-minded solstice-watchers, illuminated Diwali-lighters, the keepers of that minor Jewish holiday with the lamp, celebrants of Monkey Day, children facing the Krampus, Saturnalian revelers, Eid ul-Fitr food donors, and -- most especially -- those of us who would just like to get on with our lives. I'll be happy to join your fun when I don't have to.

[RandFan]

I'm with ImaginalDisc on this one. What I don't like about Christmas is the compulsory frivolity. Forced "fun" is no fun. How much "forcing" is being put on you? Your life must be a living hell. Then again, my therapist said that for the most part only you can decide how to respond to external stimuli. I don't think you can really blame anyone for your unhappiness. Not that there is anything wrong with being annoyed BTW. That seems quite fair to me.

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about: mandatory merriment. It can't work. How is that mandatory? FTR: It's rhetoric not a gun.

I will be happy when Christ Mass is relegated to an annual two-hour ritual quietly pursued by the last remaining Christians. I'm afraid you will have to learn to live with disappointment grasshopper.

In the meantime, let us break up that holy day's monopoly on December by giving space to science-minded solstice-watchers...See, now THAT is cool. We are celebrating solstice in my house and we are going out of our way to share the message of solstice with friends and family in a non-threatening way. We say happy holidays and we do it with a smile on our face. I'm all for diversity and enlightenment of other beliefs and observances.

We can have both and do so in a spirit of good will and harmony. But perhaps that's just me. I don't mind a war on the monopoly of the holidays but I would hope we could do it with good nature. Let the Christians be dour.

With that, a holiday wish.

7154990499615236008

[Skeptic Ginger]

.
Yesterday, on a short stroll to the corner market.Excuse the continued hijack... we've got about 9 inches of powder and it's still coming down. I bought a snow blower from a yard sale years ago and used it for the first time today. Wow, never shoveled the driveway so fast in all my life. Then I loaned it to the neighbors. It's making its way down the street. :D

[CriticalThanking]

Long, long ago in darn near another life, I used to sing at the Six Flags amusement park for their holiday seasons. Did I get tired of singing the same 10 songs every hour daily for 4+ weeks? You bet. Did I cringe walking down the avenue next to the Looney Tunes characters? Yep. But seeing a kid's face light up or having a parent thank us for bringing back pleasant memories of caroling made up for it many times over. Pardon me while I go sit in a corner and smile for a while at the memory.

CT

[Skeptic Guy]

niIJ9Yb-xwQ
:D

Oh, I hate you now.... :p

[Roadtoad]

In the spirit of the season:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p297/ldl21/anonesense.jpg

GAWD! I LOVE that!!!

Might be worth slapping that on Christmas cards and sending them out.

I used to work with a guy who had a friend who was an artist. The artist did a beautiful pencil drawing of a vulture perched in a tree.

My coworker took that picture, turned it into a Christmas card, with the inscription inside reading, "Humbug."

It took him years before he was out of the doghouse with his wife. (Of course, on the upside, he was never allowed to buy the family's Christmas cards again.)

[G-K-4]

FTR: It's rhetoric not a gun.

Then I'll try to be more brave.


I'm afraid you will have to learn to live with disappointment grasshopper.

I fully expect that in another 150 years, late December cultural practices in North America will be very different from what they are now. I suspect that demographics are on my side.


See, now THAT is cool.

Why, thank you.


With that, a holiday wish.

I haven't heard that sketch in years. Good one.


And for all those people who are tired of the same old Christmas music, here's something new:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifP_0RN0JTk

"...If everybody else is singing it
It can't be wrong....."


Praise "BOB"! And have a great Xistlessnessmess.

[Roadtoad]

Ho, ho, ho. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGdrMOttV_s)

[RandFan]

Then I'll try to be more brave. Then you shall be known forever more as the brave little poster. ;) (that sounds like a great movie title (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092695/)).

I fully expect that in another 150 years, late December cultural practices in North America will be very different from what they are now. I suspect that demographics are on my side.Yes, but time I'm affraid is against you.

And for all those people who are tired of the same old Christmas music, here's something new:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifP_0RN0JTk

"...If everybody else is singing it
It can't be wrong....."

Praise "BOB"! And have a great Xistlessnessmess.

More importantly, get pissed drunk because we all know that alcohol is the spirit of Christmas present and that is the true meaning Christmas.

"God bless us everyone" --Tiny Tim or, if you prefer, "Hey everybody, were all going to get laid" --Al Czervik

[joobz]

One of the things I find funny about the anti-christmas attitude is the ordinariness of it.

When I was in highschool, the kids who were anti-christmas did it for the non-conformist originality of it. They were rebelling against the mainstream and the common. They were being unique.

But, how unique can the view be when it was characterized in a book written 165 years ago?

[ImaginalDisc]

One of the things I find funny about the anti-christmas attitude is the ordinariness of it.

When I was in highschool, the kids who were anti-christmas did it for the non-conformist originality of it. They were rebelling against the mainstream and the common. They were being unique.

But, how unique can the view be when it was characterized in a book written 165 years ago?


Oh, I was waiting for this crap. Disliking Christmas does not make one a Scrooge, or a Grinch, or any other sort of fictional character. Scrooge was a miserly, ambitious ass who detested his fellow man, lied, cheated, and stole his way to wealth. I loathe Christmas and everything affiliated with it, but I'm studying to be a teacher of science, work as a clerk (like Scrooge's employee, rather than scrooge) I donate blood every 14 days, tend a community garden, and buy gifts of my friends and family whenever inspiration and budget conspire.

Hating Christmas does not make me some heartless beast and I resent the implication. Neither does liking Christmas make you good. Personally, I think Christmas debsases eveything it's supposed to celebrate.

[joobz]

Oh, I was waiting for this crap.
Jeez. touchy touchy.
Disliking Christmas does not make one a Scrooge, or a Grinch, or any other sort of fictional character.
Scrooge, no.
Unoriginal. Yes.
Note, I do not believe your intent is originality but simply are experessing your opinion.

Scrooge was a miserly, ambitious ass who detested his fellow man, lied, cheated, and stole his way to wealth. I loathe Christmas and everything affiliated with it, but I'm studying to be a teacher of science, work as a clerk (like Scrooge's employee, rather than scrooge) I donate blood every 14 days, tend a community garden, and buy gifts of my friends and family whenever inspiration and budget conspire.
Never said you did anything less.



Hating Christmas does not make me some heartless beast and I resent the implication. Neither does liking Christmas make you good. Personally, I think Christmas debsases eveything it's supposed to celebrate.
Again, I wasn't referring to you but rather the kids I grew up with. I had a lot of goth kids (before they were called goth) at my highschool.

[RandFan]

I loathe Christmas and everything affiliated with it... Why? You ought to be able to explain why.

Neither does liking Christmas make you good.It doesn't make you bad either.

Personally, I think Christmas debsases eveything it's supposed to celebrate.Why? Your emotions seem quite irrational. Hey, if it's annoyance at the commercialism I understand but I really don't see Loathing and hatred. I usually reserve that for mass murderers and pedophiles. What about Christmas causes you to have such an emotional response? Do you hate and loath folks like me who genuinely like Christmas (the cultural aspects)?

[ImaginalDisc]

Why? You ought to be able to explain why.

It doesn't make you bad either.

Why? Your emotions seem quite irrational. Hey, if it's annoyance at the commercialism I understand but I really don't see Loathing and hatred. I usually reserve that for mass murderers and pedophiles. What about Christmas causes you to have such an emotional response? Do you hate and loath folks like me who genuinely like Christmas (the cultural aspects)?

Not just because it's commercial, but because it's held up at the special time of good cheer, charity, and family love. Homeless shelters are inundated with help around the holidays, but those same people are no where to be found in the middle of August. People go out of their way to vsist relaties they avoid the rest of the year. The symbolic actions of Christmas are held up as important, but I think they detract from the essence. If someone buys you a present for Christmas, does it mean they wish you well, or that they had you on a list when they went to the mall on black Friday? When Uncle Joe shows up for Christmas dinner, does he actually love you, or is he just showing up because it's expected?

Family and fellowship should not be on a schedule. There is no place on a calendar for sincerity.

[AkuManiMani]

I can't agree with Hitchens more. Take your Christmas insanity into private places. I never want to hear Christmas music again as long as I live.

If you're joking that comment is funny. If you're serious its simply hilarious :D

[RandFan]

Not just because it's commercial, but because it's held up at the special time of good cheer, charity, and family love. Homeless shelters are inundated with help around the holidays, but those same people are no where to be found in the middle of August. People go out of their way to vsist relaties they avoid the rest of the year. The symbolic actions of Christmas are held up as important, but I think they detract from the essence. If someone buys you a present for Christmas, does it mean they wish you well, or that they had you on a list when they went to the mall on black Friday? When Uncle Joe shows up for Christmas dinner, does he actually love you, or is he just showing up because it's expected?

Family and fellowship should not be on a schedule.BTW, thanks. You are someone I have a great deal of respect for and I was beginning to think you had put me on ignore. :) I'm glad that's not true.

All great points. But it raises a question. Would people do as much, or even more, without Christmas? I doubt it.

BTW, my wife and I were having this discussion last night. As atheists it's easy to see the facade, the greed, the borrowing of money to lavish material things on kids and all of the other BS. That doesn't mean that there doesn't exist real and sincere good will though. But you do raise valid point of discussion. It's just that for me it's not sufficient to then say, well then I'm not going to do anything extra for anyone at Christmas time. I'd rather go out of my way to do good things for people at Christmas time and work harder to be cognizant of my fellow citizens the rest of the year.

Hey, I'll let it go. I respect your opinion and I'm happy to live with that.

Cheers my friend and I say that with all sincerity.

Oh, and BTW, god loves and I'll say a prayer for you. ;) Just kidding.

[JohnG]

Hating Christmas does not make me some heartless beast and I resent the implication. Neither does liking Christmas make you good. Personally, I think Christmas debsases eveything it's supposed to celebrate.

Hang on a minute, I'm beginning to think you're not Bill O'Reilly at all!

Come, own up!

[G-K-4]

When I was in highschool, the kids who were anti-christmas did it for the non-conformist originality of it. They were rebelling against the mainstream and the common. They were being unique.

But, how unique can the view be when it was characterized in a book written 165 years ago?

Not liking Christmas does not have to be an attempt to express one's unique individuality. There are many other possible motivations. But let me try to explain one of the reasons I don't like Christmas, a reason that relates to individuality.

I wish to avoid feeding into the conformity of Christmas, that is, the "acting Christian" in a way that supports their monopoly. Christianity is slowly losing its grip on the hearts and minds of the North American people. Jews and atheists are being more outspoken, and other people -- including many folks in my town -- aren't even from countries dominated by Abrahamic faiths.

Nevertheless the more chauvinistic Christians such as O'Reilly and Brimelow demand deference, and see anything less as "persecution". All our unconsidered Christmas genuflection reinforces the chauvinists' idea that they represent the proper way to do things, and maybe it's not to late to return to the 1950's. These demands for conformity make it more difficult for our society to accept the fact that we are more culturally diverse than we used to be, that this trend will continue, and that the reactionaries' grudge retards the development of new cultural practices that are more appropriate for our 21st century reality.

This is one of the reasons I champion Crimble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW6nZyJSERw). Take the December 25th holiday one step farther away from Christianity by removing the religious name. Make it more open, flexible, and polycultural (http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/10125). Already, nothing else about Christmas is Christian except the Mass (at midnight or otherwise) and a few of those boring old songs. I think that Crimble might be an opportunity to make a solstice-related holiday that is open to people of all cultural backgrounds, one which allows them to keep to their own (changing) traditions and enjoy an additional "tradition" with their new neighbors.

"A polyculturalist outlook recognizes that we all have multiple, overlapping identities and affiliations". If we don't have to melt into a bland Christian pot, we can continue to be atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, pagans, etcetera, who can choose to also participate in that goofy secular holiday at the darkest part of the year.

Even your old goth friends probably loved a modified and renamed version of All Hallow's Even', no Christian strings attached. I think they, and others, might go for Crimble under a similar arrangement.


Meanwhile, you refer to A Christmas Carol. Regarding Charles Dicken's role in the invention of Christmas (as we know it at the moment), you may find informative the following episode of Skepticality:
http://www.skepticality.com/sn_Ep26.html

[Skeptic]

Oh, come on, I like Hitchens a lot but in this case he's just beeing annoying. Christmas is no more "inescapable" than, say, milk. Every time I go to the grocery store, there is some milk for sale! There are commercials advocating drinking milk all the time! I see ads in the paper about it! Give me a break.

Besides, he forgets that the real reason people like Christmas as it is celebrated today has very little to do with religion and everything with human nature: Christmas has turned into, in effect, midwinter festival, where the lights and music are there so we'll have an excuse to celebrate something in the dreariest time of the year. Stone age people 10,000 years ago probably did the same.

[Darth Rotor]

The same carrols that have been ullulated badly by carolers for over a hundred years?
I tend to choose the Robert Shaw Chorale, Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and the Manheim Steamroller Christmas music since it is extremely well done.

And Bob Rivers.

At stores, where the Kitsch carols are piped in ad nauseum, I have been known to wear ear plugs as I shop.

The Grinch streak in me empathizes with Hitchens, but I agree with King Merv. He's not making sweet enough lemonade from his bushel of lemons. (Well, actually, he is, it gave him a topic for a column, which pays the bills for him.)

Merry Christmas, Hitch. :xmas0637 :xmas0643

DR

[bokonon]

Christmas has turned into, in effect, midwinter festival, where the lights and music are there so we'll have an excuse to celebrate something in the dreariest time of the year. Stone age people 10,000 years ago probably did the same.
I guess I'll add "merry mid-winter festival" to my repertoire of greetings. It has the same alliterative power as "happy holidays" and will lull the "merry Christmas" militants into thinking I'm one of them, right before "mid-winter festival" lands like a punch to the gut.

ETA: Would "merry midwinter mass" be overkill?

[Darth Rotor]

I completely understand your dislike of the whole thing. I feel the same way about most sports. Why should I care that the super bowl is coming?
Vile heretic! (At least he didn't say Jehovah)
Hitchens is first and foremost lashing out against the inescapable jumble of Christmas paraphernalia, and the harsh social pressure. -- snip -- But I could do with less of the inane Christmas songs.
Me as well. Jingle Bell Rock makes my skin crawl.
I also really deplore the inescapability of Christmas music and decoration. But, I'm assuming that other people genuinely enjoy it, so I chalk it up as part of the price to pay for living in this kind of free society.
And so we see a well balanced, tolerant and loving human being in action.
To hear Chanticleer sing The First Noel is to be transported. To hear elementary school kids sing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer over and over again is to understand Dick Cheney's position on waterboarding.
Yes.
I don't believe in dog and I hate the consumerism.
The consumerism bit is odious. "Christmas come but once a year so you better cash in while the chance is here." That song is about fifty years old, but seems to have become a portrait the reality.
Excuse the continued hijack... we've got about 9 inches of powder and it's still coming down.
Experiencing deepest snow envy. :xmas0645 :xmas0646 :xmas0658. I hear Helena got six inches last night.
More importantly, get pissed drunk because we all know that alcohol is the spirit of Christmas present and that is the true meaning Christmas.
Christmas spirits are always in order.
One of the things I find funny about the anti-christmas attitude is the ordinariness of it.
My wife has had to learn different ways to deflect my annual Grinch instincts, just as I have learned to adapt to her Christmasophilia.
Hating Christmas does not make me some heartless beast and I resent the implication. Neither does liking Christmas make you good. Personally, I think Christmas debsases eveything it's supposed to celebrate.
Your last sentence does not make sense. Christmas is supposed to celebrate X, Y, and Z. It cannot by itself debase itself. What too often happens is that in the season fused with material things, people let things be emphasized rather than the spiritual or interpersonal element. Preachers all over the place harp on how important it is not to fall into the consumerist trap. I don't think their success rate is anything to write home about, but I do know that I love going to midnight mass with my family and friends. It's touching and beautiful each year.
Why? Your emotions seem quite irrational. Hey, if it's annoyance at the commercialism I understand but I really don't see Loathing and hatred.
It's part of the Grinchiness, ID is still on topic with the OP. :xmas06skeptical:
If you're joking that comment is funny. If you're serious its simply hilarious :D
:xmas0634
Oh, come on, I like Hitchens a lot but in this case he's just beeing annoying. Christmas is no more "inescapable" than, say, milk. Every time I go to the grocery store, there is some milk for sale! There are commercials advocating drinking milk all the time! I see ads in the paper about it! Give me a break.
I felt the same way about Paris Hilton for quite some time, though I never could buy her in the store. The prospect of seeing her stuffed into a milk cooler at the local supermarket makes me giggle.

This thread has been fun. It needs to snow in Florida so ID can chill a bit in front of the fireplace (or a picture of one) with some spiced wine, maybe some Black Sabbath or Bach on the stereo, and as much or as little Christmas leaking in the front door as he can stand. ID, I recommend a listen to Tom Lehrer's send up of Christmas Music, you might enjoy it as a blow against the Christmas music you find so difficult to stomach.

A preview:

"God rest ye merrry merchants may he make the yule tide pay!
Angels we have heard on high, tell us to go out and buy"

DR

[fuelair]

The same carrols that have been ullulated badly by carolers for over a hundred years?
Yes, but sometimes they are done well - and taken as music can be quite enjoyable. I am an atheist without quibble or qualm - but that doesn't mean I can't "wish" that the "spirit" of Christmas was actually followed by it's believers all year round (just like the supposed spirit of the Koran, Golden rule, etc.).

[fuelair]

I'm a huge Hitchens fan and I sympathize with him. However I love the season. I just love it. :)

BTW: I live in the high desert in California and we never have white Christmas.

This is my front yard and street. Taken today.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1228/snowbw1.jpg

Good luck on a repeat next week!!!!:)

[CriticalThanking]

Christmas is no more "inescapable" than, say, milk. Every time I go to the grocery store, there is some milk for sale! There are commercials advocating drinking milk all the time! I see ads in the paper about it! Give me a break.I know exactly what you mean. This milkism must end. Every time I walk into a store during this time of year, a greeter wishes me "The Dairy Best." My cow-orkers string up milk cartons from their cubes. Elementary schools put on dairy pageants. My kid wants to watch "A Charlie Brown Milkshake" over and over again. The radio plays nothing but Away In a Manger and Adeste Bovinus.

I can't take any more. I'm going to go drown my sorrows in egg nog.

Blessings upon you all.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/7580494bc15bc7a4d.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14647)

CT

[I Ratant]

How much "forcing" is being put on you? Your life must be a living hell. Then again, my therapist said that for the most part only you can decide how to respond to external stimuli. I don't think you can really blame anyone for your unhappiness. Not that there is anything wrong with being annoyed BTW. That seems quite fair to me.
...

.
True!
The excuse of being "forced to do something" is merely that, an excuse.
There are always options to anything.
Simply saying "No" can be one of them.

[Iconoclast08]

Hitchens can be a huge grump (just look at my menacing avatar...Grrrrr!), but I think it should be pointed out to those balking at his comments that he highly enjoys the theater of being a grump. He's a provocateur and polemicist extraordinaire.

I watched the Four Horsemen DVD recently (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett), and at one point Dawkins cornered Hitchens into insinuating that the reason he (Hitchens) didn't want religion to go away is because he wouldn't have anything to gripe about. I thought that was pretty telling.

Wiping away the extreme verbiage, which I find amusing more than anything, I think Hitchens makes a good point.

[alfaniner]

As I've had a lot of time to watch TV the last few weeks, I am increasingly irritated by the refusal of several networks and companies to acknowledge that it is, in fact, Christmastime. Especially when they are hawking their wares or food prep programs. (Food Network).

It's always "A Holiday cook-off" or "Buy it for the Holiday". I don't have a problem with it being referred to as Christmas if that is what they are talking about! I know it has to irk some of those southern cooks like Paula Deen to have to refer to it as "the holiday".

It's "Christmas", goddammit.