Unhabited Mars is proof UFOS don't exist

[Cainkane1]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars? Europa would be a good place to settle also. The aliens could warm up Mars and get the water flowing without having to deal with humans at all.

[Ladewig]

There is an error in your logic. It is possible that aliens have the resources to visit our solar system, but do not have the resources to send the absurdly large payloads necessary to send terraform Mars. What if someone said, "humans have never visited the moon; if they did have the technology necessary to go there, we would see large permanent bases on the moon. Thus the lack of permanent bases is evidence that humans never went there."

[Cainkane1]

Is my logic really flawed? UFO reports have been around since biblical times. In all this time it seems to me that they would have settled somewhere in the solar system. Avoiding conflicts with humans would make mars a perfect destination.

[JimBenArm]

The fact Mars is uninhabited is proof of nothing other than the fact that Mars is uninhabited.

UFO's are all around us. Every day, I look outside, see something flying around, and wonder what it is. Is it a robin? A crow? I can't tell, so it's an Unidentified Flying Object.

Hope this helps!

[Ladewig]

Is my logic really flawed? UFO reports have been around since biblical times. In all this time it seems to me that they would have settled somewhere in the solar system. Avoiding conflicts with humans would make mars a perfect destination.

Yes. It is flawed. If these alleged aliens (I have seen no credible evidence that we are being visited) were interested in Earth but preferred to remain secreted (ala Star Trek Federation ships when they observe non-warp-drive civilizations) then terraforming Mars would surely give away their presence.

[Cainkane1]

Yes. It is flawed. If these alleged aliens (I have seen no credible evidence that we are being visited) were interested in Earth but preferred to remain secreted (ala Star Trek Federation ships when they observe non-warp-drive civilizations) then terraforming Mars would surely give away their presence.
Why would said aliens care whether we knew about them or not? Star Trek is just a movie. If UFOS exist then why not build a civilization on mars and to heck with the human race?

[godless dave]

Why do you assume settlement of planets would be the goal of aliens capable of interstellar travel?

[kittynh]

look if someone went to the moon, they would see all the junk we left behind. They would know someone had been there.

Sadly, Edward Teller once said "so where is everybody?" when speaking of UFOs and life on other planets. As time has gone on, it has become more apparent that life is far more rare than we had imagined. My mother grew up with textbooks that said there had been life on Mars at one time as there were canals.

In the nuts and bolts UFO community this lack of contact is known as "the great silence".

Life out there, probably yes. Life exactly adapted to travel through space to our little speck of dirt....probably no. It's all about timing and distance. Not only do they have to be able to travel through vast spaces, and somehow know our planet is worth visiting, they have to do it during the small time frame life has been on this planet. Evolution shows that is a very small amount of time for ANY planet with life. Add in the "luck" of an asteroid hitting our planet and killing off all the big reptilian type life, leaving small mammals the new kings, and you are talking incredible odds. Sure there is life on other planets, but maybe Trex is the big guy there and the dinosaur rocket technology was in its infancy when they died out. Also consider that life likes water. But an all water planet, or a mostly water very little land planet, won't be too interested in space travel. That's because it takes making fire as the first step in any good space program (such as we imagine it). Scientists are guessing that life is probably on all water planets.

[NobbyNobbs]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars? Europa would be a good place to settle also. The aliens could warm up Mars and get the water flowing without having to deal with humans at all.

First of all, if aliens have the technology to cross galaxies, chances are they'd come across a lot more planets more suitable to them without having to bother terraforming anything.

Secondly, you assume the aliens require hwat we require in order to survive. Watch more Star Trek and read more science fiction. Maybe they need a methane atmosphere. Maybe they need a surface temperature of several hundred degrees. Maybe a gas giant, or a place like Pluto is more to their liking.

Your "proof" is nothing of the sort. Sorry.

[Ladewig]

Why would said aliens care whether we knew about them or not? Star Trek is just a movie. If UFOS exist then why not build a civilization on mars and to heck with the human race?

Maybe their religion forbids it, maybe they have messed up so many other inhabited planets that they now prefer secrecy, maybe it is some altogether different reason. I am merely saying that it is possible that they are visiting our solar system and that they don't want to build bases on Mars or terraform it. The lack of civilization on Mars is not evidence for or against anything related to interstelar-traveling aliens

[Bob Klase]

Unhabited Mars is proof UFOS don't exist

Proof in the same way that unhabited deserts on earth is proof that automobiles don't exist.

[Crowlogic]

For all we know our solar system my be considered to be little more than a galactic slum. If you can travel intergalactic distances then you can pick and choose where you're going to hang you hat in the form of a colony. Silly premise this thread is

[Ragnarok]

I know I should be full of christmas spirit and good cheer, but that OP has got to be the poorest argument against ET's and UFO's I have ever read.

F-

[Brendy]

sigh, lizard people have already been elected president of the USA. It is a fact. It is why bigfoot is extinct. Lizard people's favorite food is big apes. Enjoy your time amoung the sheeple.

[Bell]

Actually, UFO's DO exist.

It is flying saucers that don't exist.

[Bill Thompson]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars? Europa would be a good place to settle also. The aliens could warm up Mars and get the water flowing without having to deal with humans at all.


Oh MAN !!!!!!!:boggled::boggled::boggled:

UFO's are not flying saucers from outerspace.

UFO's are "Unidentified Flying Objects" They exist. If they didn't exist, we would not have a very freaking good freaking Air Force.

When UFO's are Identified they are not called UFO's anymore.

Saying UFO's don't exist is like saying dust bunnies don't exist.

Saying " Unhabited Mars is proof UFOS don't exist" is like saying "Empty toaster oven is proof dog sleed erosion doesn't exist". Wait, that doesn't make sense. Exactly.

We count on flying objects being unidentified. UFO's don't exist, you say? Somone should call up the pentagon and demand our tax money back for the stealth bomber.

[Bill Thompson]

Actually, UFO's DO exist.

It is flying saucers that don't exist.

DOH.

Great minds think alike.

[Bell]

DOH.

Great minds think alike.

If you are such a great mind, apply at Apple :p

[Undesired Walrus]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars? Europa would be a good place to settle also. The aliens could warm up Mars and get the water flowing without having to deal with humans at all.

Why do you assume these Aliens can't live in the temperature Mars provides? What is wrong with their base being built on one of the rocks of the Oort Cloud?

[bruto]

look if someone went to the moon, they would see all the junk we left behind. They would know someone had been there.

Sadly, Edward Teller once said "so where is everybody?" when speaking of UFOs and life on other planets. As time has gone on, it has become more apparent that life is far more rare than we had imagined. My mother grew up with textbooks that said there had been life on Mars at one time as there were canals.

In the nuts and bolts UFO community this lack of contact is known as "the great silence".

Life out there, probably yes. Life exactly adapted to travel through space to our little speck of dirt....probably no. It's all about timing and distance. Not only do they have to be able to travel through vast spaces, and somehow know our planet is worth visiting, they have to do it during the small time frame life has been on this planet. Evolution shows that is a very small amount of time for ANY planet with life. Add in the "luck" of an asteroid hitting our planet and killing off all the big reptilian type life, leaving small mammals the new kings, and you are talking incredible odds. Sure there is life on other planets, but maybe Trex is the big guy there and the dinosaur rocket technology was in its infancy when they died out. Also consider that life likes water. But an all water planet, or a mostly water very little land planet, won't be too interested in space travel. That's because it takes making fire as the first step in any good space program (such as we imagine it). Scientists are guessing that life is probably on all water planets.

True, but then perhaps the little green men have these really comfy flying saucers with all the conveniences. They're like those people in Winnebagos at the KOA: set down on grubby dusty old mars, kids are tired and grumpy, mom worries they'll catch their death out there anyway, dad has to recalibrate the warp drive, they're behind schedule after that 345 parsec detour, so they throw something in the oven, hunker down in front of the TV, and drive off next morning. No litter? Well, what's wrong with being tidy?

[my_wan]

Is my logic really flawed? UFO reports have been around since biblical times. In all this time it seems to me that they would have settled somewhere in the solar system. Avoiding conflicts with humans would make mars a perfect destination.

Another way the logic is flawed. Who's to say any sufficiently advanced civilization even wants to live on a planet like a bunch of animals? What with all the volcanoes, earthquakes, meteors, etc. Very inefficient also. A large mothership can be built out for whatever is needed. A quick kick to the thrusters solves the meteor problem also. Planets are awfully poor in resources anyway compared to the Oort cloud, and the Oort cloud has even bigger planets. Don't have to choke on your emissions either.

In fact the only reason I see to even stop by is to give the kids a gander at the indigenous animal population. Perhaps a few researchers want to study some aspects of the local biosystem a little closer. Mars would be just flat our boring.

Fundamentally I don't think an advanced civilization is likely to last more than a few million years at best tied to a planets surface.

[Cainkane1]

Another way the logic is flawed. Who's to say any sufficiently advanced civilization even wants to live on a planet like a bunch of animals? What with all the volcanoes, earthquakes, meteors, etc. Very inefficient also. A large mothership can be built out for whatever is needed. A quick kick to the thrusters solves the meteor problem also. Planets are awfully poor in resources anyway compared to the Oort cloud, and the Oort cloud has even bigger planets. Don't have to choke on your emissions either.

In fact the only reason I see to even stop by is to give the kids a gander at the indigenous animal population. Perhaps a few researchers want to study some aspects of the local biosystem a little closer. Mars would be just flat our boring.

Fundamentally I don't think an advanced civilization is likely to last more than a few million years at best tied to a planets surface.
For the record I don't believe UFOS are piloted by intelligent beings. I believe they are misinterpreted natural phenomena you see up in the air. My post was in response to the evidence mars had a now extinct civilization at one time. I was watching the science channel last night and maybe in a few centuries humans will have the only civilization that ever will or ever has been there. I'm sorry I gave anyone on this forum the idea that I'm a woo woo sort of person. I do consider it a mild tradgedy that earth is the only planet except for perhaps some of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn that has complex life forms. For all practical purposes the human race is alone even if statistically there are other planets inhabited by intelligent beings. I feel that these far away civilizations are too far away for us to even met or even discover.

[Soapy Sam]

Any aliens with the technology to build bases on Mars might also have the ability to hide them, either from us or from someone else.

Personally, I find the absence of gun platforms in Earth orbit fairly conclusive proof that our neighbourhood is not being watched.
Possibly they didn't expect intelligent life to recur here so fast after they left in 65 million BC.

[neutrino_cannon]

Is my logic really flawed? UFO reports have been around since biblical times. In all this time it seems to me that they would have settled somewhere in the solar system. Avoiding conflicts with humans would make mars a perfect destination.


If you can cross the cosmos on anything like a reasonable timescale, you have at your casual disposal the energy to squish Earth like a grape:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_kill_vehicle

[my_wan]

For the record I don't believe UFOS are piloted by intelligent beings. I believe they are misinterpreted natural phenomena you see up in the air. My post was in response to the evidence mars had a now extinct civilization at one time. I was watching the science channel last night and maybe in a few centuries humans will have the only civilization that ever will or ever has been there. I'm sorry I gave anyone on this forum the idea that I'm a woo woo sort of person. I do consider it a mild tradgedy that earth is the only planet except for perhaps some of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn that has complex life forms. For all practical purposes the human race is alone even if statistically there are other planets inhabited by intelligent beings. I feel that these far away civilizations are too far away for us to even met or even discover.

Oh, I seen no mention of "extinct" civilization. In fact it says "technology to cross galaxys". I never got the notion you "believed" UFOs were piloted craft. Personally I'm not as hostile to the notion of alien visitation as some. What I am hostile to is the belief that it is so. The odds are simply outrageous against it and calling the so called UFO observations evidence is major woo.

So not to worry, I don't think anybody got the impression anything you said was woo, in fact the opposite. There are loads of reasons to call the belief in alien visitations woo. My response was a purely logical issue against making artificial reasons for calling it woo.

[fromdownunder]

My post was in response to the evidence mars had a now extinct civilization at one time.

Content deleted - I misread the post.

Norm

[Bill Thompson]

If you are such a great mind, apply at Apple :p
are they popular?
they seem expensive and limiting.
can you open up an apple computer and swap out hard drives and tweek the system easily?

[CFLarsen]

Come, now. Aliens exist, and they have lived on Mars, around 8,000 years ago.

I know this from Ole Gerstrøm, former member of the Danish Parliament. Before that, during one of his earlier lives, he used to be a security officer on Mars, and given the task of ridding the planet of unwanted aliens. The friendly ones took him on trips around Mars in their spaceships.

[Bell]

are they popular?
they seem expensive and limiting.
can you open up an apple computer and swap out hard drives and tweek the system easily?

No, so I just buy new ones all the time :p

[DC]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars? Europa would be a good place to settle also. The aliens could warm up Mars and get the water flowing without having to deal with humans at all.

why would they need to do that?

[CFLarsen]

Location, location, location.

[DC]

Come, now. Aliens exist, and they have lived on Mars, around 8,000 years ago.

I know this from Ole Gerstrøm, former member of the Danish Parliament. Before that, during one of his earlier lives, he used to be a security officer on Mars, and given the task of ridding the planet of unwanted aliens. The friendly ones took him on trips around Mars in their spaceships.

you need another one in that direction for the Danish parliament?
i will pay for a oneway ticket to Denmark for Erich von Däniken, interested? :D

[GreyICE]

I don't believe aliens are visiting earth, but there are literally dozens of terrible assumptions you have made in your theory. I mean the very SMALLEST is the fact that they'd settle down on mercury.

[Soapy Sam]

Very hot in summer.

[mikeyx]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars? Europa would be a good place to settle also. The aliens could warm up Mars and get the water flowing without having to deal with humans at all.

If they were crossing galaxies why would they be so focused on just one spec in that galaxy, they would have the whole galaxy...

[mikeyx]

Is my logic really flawed? UFO reports have been around since biblical times. In all this time it seems to me that they would have settled somewhere in the solar system. Avoiding conflicts with humans would make mars a perfect destination.

you assume much grasshopper, they could have the technology to terraform us out of the way, they again, have the entire galaxy to play in, what makes our mudball or system of mudballs so important in the bigger picture?

[Ladewig]

what makes our mudball or system of mudballs so important in the bigger picture?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060672/

[JcR]

We Earthlings have to Thwart off any colonization of Mars.

[Correa Neto]

There are some things to ponder...

First of all, we must consider that we have a single example of technological civilization- ours. More specifically, ours right now. The possible evolutionary paths of alien civilizations are completely unknown - we can only speculate. Actually we can't even be sure about what will we become in say, 10Ky (assuming we do not folow the extinction path). Yes, sci-fi can help, but it can`t give an a definitive answer.

Suppose we become like Star Trek`s Borgs minus the assimilation compulsion. Why would we need to colonize Mars? Will such a civilization actually need to terraform anything? No. What if the alien civilization is completely composed by space-fairing entities? Or what if it has a Prime Directive and is watching us using ships we can not detect? What if there are some microbial native lifeforms on Mars and the alien civilization developed a moral code where their equivalent of terraforming is not acceptable even if the planet is inhabited just by microbes? Not to mention that the whole terraforming (or any other "alienforming") concept itself may be flawed by some technical reason. Or what if they just don`t care about us? And what if they haven`t found or reached us yet, maybe because travelling through stars takes a lot of time and resources? Or maybe to study us they just need a small base at some NEO. Or maybe they are very different from us (or much more technologically advanced), to a point where an alien may be undetected by my side while I write this post. Or maybe I`m one in disguise, trying to move you away from a path that could lead you to find the truth about our presence at this rotating ball of boredom!

Sorry, I can think of a lot of reasons about why a space fairing civilization might be around us without colonizing Mars and being actually noticed by us, be them buzzing around in flying saucers or not.

[TheSkepticCanuck]

Why hang around here in our remote corner of the Milky Way, when there are probably far more interesting things to see in the more heavily populated (by natural things, not merely other life forms) central parts of the galaxy. It is kind of like taking a detour off the highway / freeway to a small town, refueling vehicle and personnel, and then heading back onto the highway again. No permanent presence needed, thank you very much for the nachos and cola, have a nice day!

[GMB]

If UFOS have the technology to cross galaxys then why do they not build and develope Mars?

But its been done. The distances between stars is such that we would not expect them to do this very often. Clearly a major voyage would be expensive, time-consuming, and not worthwhile unless you were forced to set up elsewhere.

But you make a point. Since we would certainly not expect these guys to be buzzing around without setting up a local economy. The future of high tech will still contain economic realities. And to maintain any level of technology you need an extended planetary economy.

[quarky]

Gee-whiz,
we've hardly seen anything on mars. They could be living below the surface, with disguised tunnel openings. Its much to soon to assume that mars is uninhabited.

[GMB]

Gee-whiz,
we've hardly seen anything on mars. They could be living below the surface, with disguised tunnel openings. Its much to soon to assume that mars is uninhabited.

That would be too expensive. You are assuming a socialist view of the future of technology. But there is no high-tech future that won't conform to double-entry book-keeping, the profit motive, global trade and so forth.

[bruto]

Is my logic really flawed? UFO reports have been around since biblical times. In all this time it seems to me that they would have settled somewhere in the solar system. Avoiding conflicts with humans would make mars a perfect destination.

There are a few assumptions here. For example, we do not know what these theoretical space travelers are like, what they are made of, or what they might actually need from a planet. Perhaps they're small as a who on a dandelion seed. Perhaps they're there, but we just don't see them. Perhaps they set down and found they were allergic to the stuff it's made of, and skedaddled before they died of some hitherto unknown martian plague. Perhaps the little green men are really green, and consider it politically incorrect to intrude on another planet's ecosystem. Or perhaps, if they're capable of flying from galaxy to galaxy, they know something we don't know. To them, Mars, and Earth for that matter, might be the slums of the universe, comically, bizarrely undesirable, worth no more than the occasional flyby to snap pictures to post on the Tralfamadorian version of Failblog. We could be the lolcats of the galaxy, posed with our silly little telescopes aimed at the sky, with the caption "I kan haz milky wayz?"


If you're going to go to the trouble of thinking in terms of science fiction, you might as well let it rip.

[GMB]

You have to be able to manipulate your environment and engage in trade and capital accumulation. Without capital accumulation you cannot have high technology. Hence it would seem that bipedal stick-weilding gangster species are the way to go. Particularly since you have to prevail against other species before you start coining money and accumulating capital.

In any case we have that face on Mars. So that would seem to imply hominid-like creatures.

[Correa Neto]

Such an anthropocentric thinking...

Current human civilization is the single example we have. Right now it requires accumulation of capital. You can not guarantee that say, in 10K years it will still be needed or will be of the same arbitrary type we use nowadays. You can not also guarantee that an alien civilization will have capital as we know it, Jim. Or that aliens will be from some bipedal species. You can`t even be sure that they will be organic life forms. They may be life, but not as we know, Jim.

Not to mention that the whole "face in Mars" stuff is silly after the new imagery.

[GMB]

Yes we can. Its implied by the laws of economics. Thats been the major fault of science fiction. Its been developed as if we can have socialist technological development. But any such attempt will crash sooner or later.

There are economic laws just as there are physical laws. From what I've seen the strange leftovers on Mars not only appear to be in concert with such laws. They are actually a rather good illustration of them.

If you lose the extent of the global economy, you will lose the extent of your capital, so you will lose your technology, and when you lose those two you run the risk of becoming animals again. It is unlikely that our economic progress is a thing that we will take for granted given its pre-requisites. Rather we would expect civilisations to flower and then die as the parasitical element grows too strong in combination with all ones luck running out.

[bruto]

Yes we can. Its implied by the laws of economics. Thats been the major fault of science fiction. Its been developed as if we can have socialist technological development. But any such attempt will crash sooner or later.

There are economic laws just as there are physical laws. From what I've seen the strange leftovers on Mars not only appear to be in concert with such laws. They are actually a rather good illustration of them.

If you lose the extent of the global economy, you will lose the extent of your capital, so you will lose your technology, and when you lose those two you run the risk of becoming animals again. It is unlikely that our economic progress is a thing that we will take for granted given its pre-requisites. Rather we would expect civilisations to flower and then die as the parasitical element grows too strong in combination with all ones luck running out.

Sorry, but I don't buy that, in the context of science fiction. There's no reason to believe that economic laws are independent of the creatures they apply to. Can you really not imagine in a science-fictional context, any being whose entire nature is so alien that human ideas of economics do not apply?

[quarky]

I'm having trouble accepting economic law as if its thermodynamics.
Maybe the aliens function more like an ant colony.

[GMB]

There would be no chance of that. An ant colony would not have been able to produce high technology. You are being lead astray by Enders game and sci-fi more generally not in compliance with economic law.

[GMB]

There's no reason to believe that economic laws are independent of the creatures they apply to.

Of course there is. By their very nature. By the nature of the creatures being evolved and needing sustenance. Where did you get this idea from? From the Leninist idea of the socialist man? The statement is wrong. The economic law stands for any creature that was involved in the creation of wealth in the context of the division of labour. Since double-entry-book-keeping views of the future don't appear to be part of science fiction you probably just aren't used to the idea yet.

Actually this is a big problem when listening to people like Hoagland. They always act like people go to Mars, build these pyramids and things, imbed a truckload of maths into these structures, and all just as a message to unborn homidis of a different species. Rather we have to assume that they were living on the seat of their pants or they wouldn't have gone their in the first place. And that they were concerned with survival and making money. Which amounts to the same thing.

[GreyICE]

There would be no chance of that. An ant colony would not have been able to produce high technology. You are being lead astray by Enders game and sci-fi more generally not in compliance with economic law.

I have to believe this is more trolling. The concept that economic generalizations are somehow equivalent to physical laws is laughable.

[GMB]

I have to believe this is more trolling. The concept that economic generalizations are somehow equivalent to physical laws is laughable.

No you are being ridiculous. You just don't understand economics. Nor the place of technology within economics. Without economics you don't have more than the crudest technology. Since you don't have the division of labour, capital accumulation and trade.

Economic laws are something that cannot be gotten around. When people have tried to establish communism in violation of economic laws the first thing thats happened is that there has been immediate famine.

You are just going to have to update your thinking.

[GreyICE]

[QUOTE=GMB;4321421]No you are being ridiculous. You just don't understand economics. Nor the place of technology within economics. Without economics you don't have more than the crudest technology. Since you don't have the division of labour, capital accumulation and trade.

Economic laws are something that cannot be gotten around. When people have tried to establish communism in violation of economic laws the first thing thats happened is that there has been immediate famine.

You are just going to have to update your thinking.

Communism is a system that doesn't work. Definition of false dichotomy - this. Communism is a failure, communism is the only alternative to capitalism (identify the unsupported hypothesis here) therefore capitalism is the only successful system.

I'll update my thinking about the time you start doing some.

[GMB]

You don't have an argument mate. You have just been suckered in by science fiction. Some minds are malleable to this stuff I suppose. But the fact is that there is no getting around economic law.

[GreyICE]

You don't have an argument mate. You have just been suckered in by science fiction. Some minds are malleable to this stuff I suppose. But the fact is that there is no getting around economic law.

Right, troll. :rolleyes:

[GMB]

You got to get out of your fantasy-world mate. You are expecting that a species could evolve and develop technology without an economy. Without capital accumulation and the division of labour.

Pure mindlessness. Learn economics. The socialist view of high technology cannot apply to the real world no matter what mindless leftist fantasies you should wish to take on.

[GreyICE]

You got to get out of your fantasy-world mate. You are expecting that a species could evolve and develop technology without an economy. Without capital accumulation and the division of labour.

Pure mindlessness. Learn economics. The socialist view of high technology cannot apply to the real world no matter what mindless leftist fantasies you should wish to take on.

I explained to you that each has prerequisites you refuse to acknowledge. Your response is to accuse me of living in a fantasy world and once again repeat 'learn economics.'

The repetition and general aggression you show towards other posters are indicative of either someone who is extraordinarily limited in their thinking, or someone who is acting that way to provoke a response.

I choose the optimistic viewpoint.

[GMB]

The pre-requisite to technology is capital accumulation. And the pre-requisite to that is trade and the division of labour, a price system and so forth. Changed genetics isn't going to change that.

[gambling_cruiser]

Resources of energy and raw material, brain/man power and manufactoring capacity are always limited no matter what society rules are implemented. Some kind of consense has to be reached what and how much to produce, how much to consume, research, invest and so on. And this can be named an ecomomic model even if there is no money involved.

[GMB]

Impossible. Since you need money so that you can have prices so that you can have good resource allocation. The context is civilisations that had developed some level of technology.

[DC]

i guess when there are aliens that are able to travel so far, i am sure they will have developed a better system than Communism or Capitalism.

[GMB]

Why would you think that. If they were there they had to build out of rock. Thats a retrogression of technology in the face of isolated conditions. There is no getting rid of property rights. When you do that you lose your technology and become animals again.

[GreyICE]

Impossible. Since you need money so that you can have prices so that you can have good resource allocation. The context is civilisations that had developed some level of technology.

Exactly. You state two problems with your theory in the very breath you defend it. Have you considered this?

[quarky]

Perhaps an alien civilization has a slave culture, or a eusocial genetic scenario, with a non-reproductive worker class. A superorganism, of sorts, not in competition with itself?

[bruto]

What an odd exchange this is. We're discussing possibilities that so far only exist in the realm of science fiction. There is no evidence anywhere that there are any beings, living, animated, biomechanical, mechanical or something-else that we cannot even imagine, with any kind of intelligence, much less capable or motivated to travel, and there is no evidence that even if such beings existed they ever would be able to travel across galaxies; and even if they were we have no evidence that they would ever get around to ours, or care for our solar system if they did. And yet, we're arguing intergalactic alien economics?

If you cannot even imagine an alien civilization (even that term being too species-centric, really) that could achieve technological advance without economics as we understand them, I submit that you simply lack imagination.

[GMB]

Perhaps an alien civilization has a slave culture, or a eusocial genetic scenario, with a non-reproductive worker class. A superorganism, of sorts, not in competition with itself?

You wouldn't bring the slaves with you. That would mean less capital per castaway. But you would have a point for an incredibly high-tech minority running into hunter-gatherers. Inter-stella travellers are not going anywhere if they don't have an energy source. And it has to be an energy-source that doesn't require a full-blown mining industry or a hydrocarbon network. Hence Helium-3 would be the inter-stella travellers energy of choice given the alternatives known to us today. Its a surface substance. And immediately, knowing that its a surface substance this answers the question "Why Mars?" Why such a barren place? Yet the two-moons setup envisioned above is actually pretty ideal for some community whose whole economic activity would be skewed around maintaining the remnant technology to keep their chosen form of energy production going.

Now here is the thing about such an economy. You lack BOTH capital and labour but have cheap energy. You are short on everything but the crudest materials but again you have a heap of energy. You can never have enough tools or people but you have energy to burn.

Now supposing they come to earth. (DISCLAIMER) I'm supporting the ancient Mars outpost idea. I only found out about it a few months ago. No joke. I'm not supporting alien intervention in the human race. I know of no corroborating genetic evidence for such jive. And I only bring this up in regards to the slave question.

Had these critters come to earth thats when the issue of slavery could come up. Because still your economy is chronically short on good tools and labour. And still you have energy to burn. So it would only be natural to take slaves under those conditions. But what it would not be natural to do would be to bring them with you to another solar system. It would be more likely to envisage a rich mans escape from catastrophe to disaster. And if you were a slave economy back home you would struggle to maintain a modern economy. So slavery, one would think, would be more likely as something you'd do on the fly in a new place.