Christian Ninja Greg Park aka ChosonNinja

[scottbaioisdead]

This is my first post here so i don't know if it's been covered before, there's a new breed of internet ninja guru touting Jesus and magical chi power and amassing a cult following of 24000 fans who reject anything scientific that disproves their master. this guy is a serious danger as children fall for this garbage "martial art" which he says is secret korean ninjutsu spread during the invasions of korea, i debunked his "chi spinner" with a video of my own as well as the old needle through the arm trick, but he has posted a few more nonsense videos that it would be nice if someone could respond to as he has blocked me and every other critic. it's the usual chi stuff break a brick with a glass, immovable arm and body physics that people don't want to accept as physics, heres his channel on youtube chosonninja mine is scottbaioisdead if you want to see any of my attacks on his brand of garbage. have fun guys, maybe we can get him to use his chi in the randi challenge

[Drs_Res]

Here are your youtube channels:

chosonninja: http://www.youtube.com/user/ChosonNinja

scottbaioisdead: http://www.youtube.com/user/scottbaioisdead

[tyr_13]

Ninjutsu most certainly were not impacted in any great way by Korean martial arts, and if they really mean a martial art from Korean, than ninjutsu would be the completely wrong word for it.

Ninjutsu traditions were influenced by many Chinese martial arts, as well as home-brewed techniques combined with anything that worked. The modern ninjutsu draws from the 'anything that works' part, and could be used to describe any modern stealth based combat or infiltration system. A revival of this tradition is ongoing with organizations such as SWAN. http://www.ninjitsuwarrior.com/index.html

[scottbaioisdead]

You're correct ninjutsu was based on the Sonshi a Chinese classic specifically the Yohan 13th chapter dealing with spies. The idea of "modern" ninjutsu is nonsense to me. Ninja were specific people who performed specific tasks at a specific period in Japanese history. People like Greg Park are trying to make a few bucks off it, some of the jokes on youtube seriously think that entwining fingers will make them see in the dark or become invisible or even stop someone from attacking them. I try to handle these...I can't think of a word I can say legally that's still acceptable on a forum my usual Penn Jillette phrase won't fly, and I've been sued once by a "ninja" don't wanna let it happen again, but I try to handle these people by showing the facts about ninjutsu how it basically no longer exists outside the Bujinkan. Greg and a few others tied Jesus to ninjutsu saying there were Christian ninja who were persecuted, so if an atheist comments on them they play the religion card. America really needs a governing body for martial arts to prevent these people from preying on the uninformed

[tyr_13]

I'm talking about semantics. The term 'ninjutsu' was actually applied to many different and distinct codified fighting systems, and the modern use of the term is about that 'whatever works' history of some of those systems.

Modern ninjutsu talking about finger wagging techniques and other ninja magic (nin po) that ancient ninja used for a psychological advantage is just a few people trying to make a buck off of it. However, the people trying to keep alive the specific codified systems, like Bujinkan (who I have to thank for making Cheness produce a top notch ninja sword) and the Iga traditionalist, do have the best claim to the term 'ninjutsu'.

That doesn't mean I'm about to say that groups taking that 'anything goes' approach and finding what they believe to be the point of the warrior core of ninjutsu can't use the term either. The term means, and has meant, a hell of a lot of things to a hell of a lot of different groups. Hell, the Saiga (Saika) were at times, Buddhist ninja pirate snipers.

As for a governing body for accreditation, many groups use the Japanese ones. Seems reasonable enough.

[arthwollipot]

...I can't think of a word I can say legally that's still acceptable on a forum...Say it anyway. The forum autocensors the Big Seven. Anything else is acceptable.

[scottbaioisdead]

just on a side note about martial arts trickery, does anyone know the trick to throwing a needle through glass? I've been throwing shuriken for years and i've seen some shaolin monks do the fake version, covering up a hole in the glass that the show to examiners, then another monk holds a balloon behind the glass and pops it with a needle held in his hand and then uses the needle to thread thread through the premade hole to show a needle thrown by the performer has passed though, but theres another version where you can't see a hole and a balloon is taped to a glass not held by anyone, this one i can't figure out, even with fake glass throwing a small needle is hard.

[mikeyx]

Ninjutsu most certainly were not impacted in any great way by Korean martial arts, and if they really mean a martial art from Korean, than ninjutsu would be the completely wrong word for it.

Ninjutsu traditions were influenced by many Chinese martial arts, as well as home-brewed techniques combined with anything that worked. The modern ninjutsu draws from the 'anything that works' part, and could be used to describe any modern stealth based combat or infiltration system. A revival of this tradition is ongoing with organizations such as SWAN. http://www.ninjitsuwarrior.com/index.html

Are these guys purporting to be bujinkan affiliated, because if not, that makes me wonder....

[Coveredinbeeees]

just on a side note about martial arts trickery, does anyone know the trick to throwing a needle through glass? I've been throwing shuriken for years and i've seen some shaolin monks do the fake version, covering up a hole in the glass that the show to examiners, then another monk holds a balloon behind the glass and pops it with a needle held in his hand and then uses the needle to thread thread through the premade hole to show a needle thrown by the performer has passed though, but theres another version where you can't see a hole and a balloon is taped to a glass not held by anyone, this one i can't figure out, even with fake glass throwing a small needle is hard.

A needle / airgun pellet / any small projectile fired from off camera / off stage?

[scottbaioisdead]

i thought the needle fired from a pressurized tube or gun thing but it seems a little dangerous

[tyr_13]

Are these guys purporting to be bujinkan affiliated, because if not, that makes me wonder....

No, not that I'm aware of. However, I would be extremely loyal to any company that sent me on team building exercises to ninja camp, traditional or not. (You listening Wal-Mart Stores Inc?) I get the feeling that SWAN uses the term 'ninjustu' because 1. it sells, and 2. there really isn't any other term that comes close to what they are doing.

That said, I haven't gone out of my way yet to dig into SWAN's background or reviews. It is just something my brother found and thought would be neat.

Oh, and, STOP LOOKING AT ME SWAN! There, I said it. Now no one else has to.

[scottbaioisdead]

It says "master camenisch is a certified(by whom?) modern ninjitsu(sic) instructor" after stating that ninjutsu was dead. so he basically said he studied and found something didn't exist but somehow magically certified him in the thing he said didn't exist. It looks like the standard case of throw a bunch of garbage together and call it ninjutsu because that name sells and people want to live out a ninja fantasy. Most of us call this LARPing. It looks like an attempt at SEALs hell week or SERE school, while pretending to be Japanese.

[PixyMisa]

If he gets 24,000 fans does he become a real girl?

[tyr_13]

It says "master camenisch is a certified(by whom?) modern ninjitsu(sic) instructor" after stating that ninjutsu was dead. so he basically said he studied and found something didn't exist but somehow magically certified him in the thing he said didn't exist. It looks like the standard case of throw a bunch of garbage together and call it ninjutsu because that name sells and people want to live out a ninja fantasy. Most of us call this LARPing. It looks like an attempt at SEALs hell week or SERE school, while pretending to be Japanese.

I still maintain that ninjutsu is the proper term here, or at least an accurate one. They aren't pretending to be Japanese, and on that same page they make a pretty big deal about it drawing in techniques from all over the world. Calling it SEAL's hell week or SERE school would be less accurate because, those things exist as actual programs.

I'd actually like to try LARPing and have been looking into it. To call SWAN LARP is insulting to both. People who want to live out a ninja fantasy would be drawn to a romanticized version of traditional martial arts, not something that is supposed to be an evolving and modern form.

[scottbaioisdead]

ninjutsu is the proper term here the same way african american is the proper term for dave matthews, both fit the description of the term but theres a huge common sense difference

[scottbaioisdead]

If he gets 24,000 fans does he become a real girl?

there is nothing real about greg park, he just made a shuriken video that defies the laws of physics

[Redtail]

Here's a good thread about SWAN from Bullshido.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78442

[mikeyx]

Here's a good thread about SWAN from Bullshido.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78442

Its this kinda thing that makes me miss the Ashida Kim thang. I was bummed when he killed the **** list on his site.

[scottbaioisdead]

wow i didn't even see the part about ninja mind science on the swan site.
* Psychic Attack and defense
* Divination
* Lucid Dreaming
* Telepathy
* Psychometry
* Students that are spiritually ready may chose to undergo an initiation into deeper levels of esoteric knowledge.

[tyr_13]

Let this be a lesson to me; always look into the people you are defending.

However, ninjustu just as accurately describes what he is doing as saying 'kung-fu' or martial art. The terms don't actually mean what people think they do. Common sense is often just plain wrong. People we called ninja and practicing ninjutsu often didn't call themselves that.

And yeah, Dave Matthews is African-American. What's your point?

[arthwollipot]

* Students that are spiritually ready may chose to undergo an initiation into deeper levels of esoteric knowledge.Does it involve sneaking up behind them and trying to hit them in the head with a sword?

There's an earlier thread about that. :rolleyes:

[scottbaioisdead]

Does it involve sneaking up behind them and trying to hit them in the head with a sword?

There's an earlier thread about that. :rolleyes:

as someone in the bujinkan i've experienced this, and i've been hit and i've moved out of the way and i can't really say i've felt anything in either case. it's a strange situation since i don't believe in chi but that test is a requirement, when the time comes to take it for real i'll see for myself. i was thinking of ways to actually test it to see if it's real but to be able to you'd need to be able to prove someone was emitting sakki and someone was receptive of sakki and it's impossible. i've seen people in my class do it and i can't think of a logical explanation but i'll keep trying.

[arthwollipot]

I'll try and find that old thread. It was a couple of months back. It had some interesting discussion on that particular "test".

[arthwollipot]

Ah, here it is.

'6th Sense' (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=129290)

Check it out - it's not insanely long, and there was some discussion about how this ability could be objectively tested.

[scottbaioisdead]

i think i know the op, unless he was lying. i've heard that story about him in the air force mess hall a ton of times, and the plane crash he's talking about was with toshiro nagato.

[Bikewer]

Only slightly off-topic; this sort of thing seems to be part of the martial-arts scene for quite a while. I well remember the young fellow (Heydrich? Hydrick?) who appeared on "That's Incredible" years ago with his abilities to move objects with his "ki". He was outed by Randi...

When actors Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Damme hit the scene, both made claims that proved to be untrue. Seagal said he had studied Aikido under Ueshiba himself; the Aikido foundation said..."not true". VanDamme claimed to be a kick-boxing "champion" in Europe, till no one could find his name on a single pro fight....

We're discussing a more contemporary fellow over at one of the "tactical" forums I subscribe to; one of those "defensive systems" types.
The guy claimed all sorts of military and intelligence creds on his site; Special Forces, various tactical ops associations, extensive martial arts experience, etc, etc.
Then it was discovered that he had only been in the military for 8 months, assigned to thoroughly non-combative duties..... A complete fraud.

When the "kung fu" craze hit years ago, many the "Karate" studio quickly hung out a "kung fu" shingle; one can see the head instructor furiously reading his way through a couple of books and maybe watching a video or two...

Much the same when the "ninja" craze hit some years later. At the time, there was one and only one certified instructor in the US who had actually been authorized to teach what is now called the (above mentioned) Bujinkan system. Yet miraculously, hundreds of instructors appeared, many claiming to have received instruction in "other" schools by mysterious instructors who were now conveniently dead....
I remember a Black-Belt interview with one of the Japanese ninja film stars. He had been trained in straight Japanese Karate. Asked what he did differently in his ninja films, he said that he tried to make his moves look more sinister....

There are large numbers of reputable, certified, well-trained martial arts instructors around.
There are also a fair number of frauds.

[Bikewer]

Only slightly off-topic; this sort of thing seems to be part of the martial-arts scene for quite a while. I well remember the young fellow (Heydrich? Hydrick?) who appeared on "That's Incredible" years ago with his abilities to move objects with his "ki". He was outed by Randi...

When actors Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Damme hit the scene, both made claims that proved to be untrue. Seagal said he had studied Aikido under Ueshiba himself; the Aikido foundation said..."not true". VanDamme claimed to be a kick-boxing "champion" in Europe, till no one could find his name on a single pro fight....

We're discussing a more contemporary fellow over at one of the "tactical" forums I subscribe to; one of those "defensive systems" types.
The guy claimed all sorts of military and intelligence creds on his site; Special Forces, various tactical ops associations, extensive martial arts experience, etc, etc.
Then it was discovered that he had only been in the military for 8 months, assigned to thoroughly non-combative duties..... A complete fraud.

When the "kung fu" craze hit years ago, many the "Karate" studio quickly hung out a "kung fu" shingle; one can see the head instructor furiously reading his way through a couple of books and maybe watching a video or two...

Much the same when the "ninja" craze hit some years later. At the time, there was one and only one certified instructor in the US who had actually been authorized to teach what is now called the (above mentioned) Bujinkan system. Yet miraculously, hundreds of instructors appeared, many claiming to have received instruction in "other" schools by mysterious instructors who were now conveniently dead....
I remember a Black-Belt interview with one of the Japanese ninja film stars. He had been trained in straight Japanese Karate. Asked what he did differently in his ninja films, he said that he tried to make his moves look more sinister....

There are large numbers of reputable, certified, well-trained martial arts instructors around.
There are also a fair number of frauds.

[scottbaioisdead]

i asked greg park to demonstrate his chi powers for the jref million dollar challenge, but he stated randi does not actually pay people(probably cause no one really has powers greg)

ChosonNinja (9 hours ago) Show Hide
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James randis ever pay anyone? Its truly amazing how they get out of paying. I have heard more stories about them making excuses why they can not pay than actually paying to it. Please warn the people about them never paying and puting people through ridiclous test. OK? Consider you also giving to people the truth as charity. I would also appreciate that from you as well.

[tyr_13]

I always love how these 'chi' guys and wing chung people get their asses handed to them in MMA. Now I'm not saying MMA is everything, because most fights don't take place in a steel cage with weight divisions, but at least ONE win would be more supportive of the claims.

I've seen breaking guys make the same claims. Talking about chi is useful for learning focus, a mental tool as it were. The problem is that, like the bible, some idiot has to take it literally.

[mikeyx]

Does it involve sneaking up behind them and trying to hit them in the head with a sword?

There's an earlier thread about that. :rolleyes:

You're describing, I believe, the 5th dan test, I've had it done once in preparation and no, I'm not that far along, but they did miss

You're supposed to sense the cut coming and roll out of the way from a kneeling position. I suspect I got lucky more than spidey sense

[mikeyx]

Only slightly off-topic; this sort of thing seems to be part of the martial-arts scene for quite a while. I well remember the young fellow (Heydrich? Hydrick?) who appeared on "That's Incredible" years ago with his abilities to move objects with his "ki". He was outed by Randi...

When actors Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Damme hit the scene, both made claims that proved to be untrue. Seagal said he had studied Aikido under Ueshiba himself; the Aikido foundation said..."not true". VanDamme claimed to be a kick-boxing "champion" in Europe, till no one could find his name on a single pro fight....

We're discussing a more contemporary fellow over at one of the "tactical" forums I subscribe to; one of those "defensive systems" types.
The guy claimed all sorts of military and intelligence creds on his site; Special Forces, various tactical ops associations, extensive martial arts experience, etc, etc.
Then it was discovered that he had only been in the military for 8 months, assigned to thoroughly non-combative duties..... A complete fraud.

When the "kung fu" craze hit years ago, many the "Karate" studio quickly hung out a "kung fu" shingle; one can see the head instructor furiously reading his way through a couple of books and maybe watching a video or two...

Much the same when the "ninja" craze hit some years later. At the time, there was one and only one certified instructor in the US who had actually been authorized to teach what is now called the (above mentioned) Bujinkan system. Yet miraculously, hundreds of instructors appeared, many claiming to have received instruction in "other" schools by mysterious instructors who were now conveniently dead....
I remember a Black-Belt interview with one of the Japanese ninja film stars. He had been trained in straight Japanese Karate. Asked what he did differently in his ninja films, he said that he tried to make his moves look more sinister....

There are large numbers of reputable, certified, well-trained martial arts instructors around.
There are also a fair number of frauds.

dont know about Segal, Van Damme wasnt what he claimed

[scottbaioisdead]

i need a little help on this one. this guy is claiming to throw shuriken (spikes) that are about 12 inches long from 60 feet away with rotation not a direct throw like a spear. he's penetrating a can about the size of a coffee can and the penetration is a direct line as if it hit perfectly straight, i know this is impossible if the can is on a flat object, can anyone help with the physics on this? still can't post links but search youtube for best shuriken throw 60 feet by chosonninja

[arthwollipot]

Sounds plausible to me. Difficult, to be sure, but not physically impossible.

[scottbaioisdead]

i've thrown shuriken for years, it's possible to do this with a no spin throw but his style of throwing is like throwing a baseball, more than likely he's using camera tricks, i asked him to repeat it with a different angle in the day time and he couldn't reproduce the same penetration, but managed to do it a few times in the dark, with the camera 60 feet away from the target. the basic explanation to me is yes he's hitting the target, i played baseball for a long time throwing 60 feet isn't impressive to me, and then using a gimmicked can which has the shuriken penetrated perfectly straight through. it could be possible, it could be possible jesus was invisible and guided it through angels in the outfield style too, but i was looking for some sort of formula that shows the path of a rotating object in flight

[scottbaioisdead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiLcGlxAE3o this is the video in question

[arthwollipot]

I can't view video at all. But you were saying that this is a foot-long dart? Such things have a great deal of penetrating power when thrown with force. Does the dart spin end-over-end, or fly straight?

[scottbaioisdead]

end over end rotating many times per second and penetrating the can perfectly flat as if a pub dart or arrow was thrown or shot. without denting the can in anyway i should add.

[arthwollipot]

Okay, throwing it end over end is a lot easier than throwing it like a javelin. Once it penetrates one side of the can, that would tend to constrain it to moving only in one direction. I would expect the entry hole to be slightly larger than the exit hole, due to the can absorbing the vertical force of the dart. And I wouldn't expect a throw like that to dent the can at all. The denting comes only when the energy of the strike isn't absorbed by tearing the material.

Like I said, this would be extremely difficult to do, but there's nothing there that violates the laws of physics as we know them. Trained martial artists can do some pretty incredible things - have you ever seen the Shaolin Monks on tour? - but nothing that cannot be scientifically explained.

[scottbaioisdead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3cQwbE-U6k this is a recreation of the trick done by a magician/shuriken tsukai in japan, he can throw shuriken an hit a target from huge distances but he also claims what greg park did was impossible.

[arthwollipot]

OK, well not having been able to see either video, I can't speak to that - all I can say is that I can see nothing impossible in what you have described. If the other guy can't replicate the feat, he may well label it "impossible".

I'll have a go at viewing the two videos when I get home tonight, if I remember.

[arthwollipot]

OK, I've got a few reactions to the first video. For a start, much of his behaviour is calculated for effect. When he throws the dart, then turns towards the camera before it hits and says "just like that" it's a move for effect. Yes, he has hit the target, and he knows it. But his behaviour is intended to convey an impression - that of casual skill. Yes, he's very good. But at the same time, you don't see any of his attempts that don't hit the target. They didn't make the target, for obvious reasons.

You can see at approx 4:01 that the dart has penetrated the can and the exit hole is the larger one. Okay, this is easily explainable. The point of the dart enters the near side of the can, and this actually acts as the fulcrum, or rotation point, of the dart. I was wrong in my earlier assessment that the entry point would be the larger hole. You learn something new every day. At 4:28, notice how much material is distorted at the exit point.

BTW, I can't make out whether the dart spins or flies flat in this video, but over such a distance, flying flat would be much harder, so I assume that it is spinning.

I'm getting a little tired of his "just like that" act.

Wait - how many times has he thrown the dart through that can? At 6:40, he shows the can with one penetration - no other visible holes! That should clue you in that there's something going on.

His final point - that long distance throws are redundant - is absolutely true. If you need to kill someone from 60ft away, you use a bow, not any kind of thrown weapon. The main reason is adequately demonstrated in the video - he can hit a stationary target. On the battlefield, your target will not be stationary. The slow travel of the dart will almost certainly mean that your target will have moved before you hit him.

It's an impressive throw. But like I said, from this video you get absolutely no indication of how accurate he is. He could have made a hundred attempts to get the six or seven hits that are shown in the video. Mind you, I doubt that I could hit with even one throw. His skill is quite impressive.

Nothing strange or supernatural here, just skill with a thrown dart. The impact with the can is exactly what is expected with an end-over-end shot. If someone had a high-speed camera trained on the impact point, you would see how the dart penetrates the can as though it was travelling flat.

The material of the can absorbs the energy of the projectile very efficiently. Its movement is very effectively constrained by the material that it is penetrating.

[arthwollipot]

In the second video, I'm pretty sure the guy hit the can with his hand as he cast the dart - it was a very different motion to the first. It's hard to tell, though.

There is no comparison between the first video - a long-distance tumbling throw - and the second - a very close straight "pool-cue" cast. They are totally different. What Choson did in the first video is far from impossible, and the second guy completely failed to demonstrate that it was.

[scottbaioisdead]

i posted the wrong video of suzuki sensei actually, he was describing all different aspects of how choson could fake his trick and showing the strength of the can this is another explanation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6yEte5oLLw

[Bikewer]

I haven't viewed the video yet, but as a knife-thrower of some experience (started about 1965...) I think I could say that anyone claiming a non-rotational throw of anything more than about 30 feet is very suspect.
I'm familiar with the technique; it's practiced in several disciplines. However, it's rather weak, and works best at short range.
Just "sticking" a conventional throwing knife consistently at such distances is a feat that can be accomplished by very few.

[scottbaioisdead]

the no spin, technically quarter spin method over long distances i can do and a few other people can, it's the style most often used in japan and i've been doing it for years, but throwing with spin over long distances and getting perfectly level penetration on both sides of a can doesn't look like something easily done to me

[arthwollipot]

I never claimed that it was easily done. In fact, I think you'll find that I claimed that it was a very impressive feat that would have required a great deal of training and practice. But it didn't strike me as physically impossible.