UN creates new Nation, Lakota

[DC]

If the UN would decide that the Lakota have a right for an own, independent Nation and create a Nation within the USA, in the Region of Dakota. The new Capitol city of Lakota will be Pierre.

would you support it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people

[Texas]

If the UN would decide that the Lakota have a right for an own, independent Nation and create a Nation within the USA, in the Region of Dakota. The new Capitol city of Lakota will be Pierre.

would you support it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people The UN and what army?

[DC]

The UN and what army?

why would it need an army?
will there be ressistance? maybe a few peacefull protests, but why an Amry, we talk here about the civilized USA. i think they can understand that the Lakota people have a right to have an own independent Nation.

Considering the huge support Israel gets from the USA, i dont think this would require an Army. And not Native Americans that are living in that region will get Lakota citizenship. So i see no trouble, you do?

[DC]

here you can find the map of the new Nation Lakota.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Sioux01.png

[Texas]

here you can find the map of the new Nation Lakota.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Sioux01.pngYeah I know all about it. The Lakota leadership laughed the idiots that drew it off the the reservation. You do better trying to defend Al-Qaeda in the conspiracy forum.

[Texas]

why would it need an army?
will there be ressistance? maybe a few peacefull protests, but why an Amry, we talk here about the civilized USA. i think they can understand that the Lakota people have a right to have an own independent Nation.

?Well it took the British Army to force the UN mandate of 1948. When you are finished building strawmen you can get back to your conspiracies. Your problem seems to be you can't decide if the chicken or the egg came first.

[DC]

Well it took the British Army to force the UN mandate of 1948. When you are finished building strawmen you can get back to your conspiracies. Your problem seems to be you can't decide if the chicken or the egg came first.

yeah but the UN created Israel in the region of those nasty Arabs, those violent Moslems . sure they need an army, but sure not in civilized USA.
there will be no violent ressistance from US citizens.

what was first the egg or the chicken?
who was first, Native Americans or those that got kicked out of Europe and created the USA?

[Texas]

yeah but the UN created Israel in the region of those nasty Arabs, those violent Moslems . sure they need an army, but sure not in civilized USA.
there will be no violent ressistance from US citizens.

what was first the egg or the chicken?
who was first, Native Americans or those that got kicked out of Europe and created the USA? Well it could have been the Aztecs, or the Mayans or it could have been Big Foot. Yes the United States is a civilized nation, that is why we don't have Muslim "youths" running in the streets burning cars or Muslims demanding Shari'a law as in Europe. That is why we have elected a Black man after only 200 or so years and yet Europe that has had a thousand years and with years of sneering at the "racist" US are still so white in their leadership that it causes snow blindness. BTW blue helmets make dandy targets.

[DC]

Well it could have been the Aztecs, or the Mayans or it could have been Big Foot. Yes the United States is a civilized nation, that is why we don't have Muslim "youths" running in the streets burning cars or Muslims demanding Shari'a law as in Europe. That is why we have elected a Black man after only 200 or so years and yet Europe that has had a thousand years and with years of sneering at the "racist" US are still so white in their leadership that it causes snow blindness. BTW blue helmets make dandy targets.

in 2007 the highest political position in my country was held by a gay polish man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Janiak

ok we didnt have a Black one yet. i guess that makes us racist, darn, if we only had more slaves so we had more chances to get a black president :(


Muslim "youths" running in the streets burning cars

i am just happy you are not such a racist and bigot like we eurotrashys.

[Texas]

i am just happy you are not such a racist and bigot like we eurotrashys.
I apologise were they Lutheran "youths"?

[DC]

I apologise were they Lutheran "youths"?

about what exactly are you talking?
the protests in France?

[Texas]

about what exactly are you talking?
the protests in France?
Oh then they must have been Catholics. Sorry.

[DC]

Oh then they must have been Catholics. Sorry.

no in France there are many many religions.

what was they protesting about?
or did you just see some arabic looking guys burning cars?

[DC]

i see Lakota is not getting much Support here.

do you people deny the rights of the Lakota people to have an independent nation?

[Texas]

i see Lakota is not getting much Support here.

do you people deny the rights of the Lakota people to have an independent nation?You first have to show that the "Lakota people" are clamoring for this new "nation". Google "Lakota Nation" and see if you can find calls for independence.

[DC]

You first have to show that the "Lakota people" are clamoring for this new "nation". Google "Lakota Nation" and see if you can find calls for independence.

http://www.republicoflakotah.com/?page_id=14

some Lakota wants to, yes.

[FireGarden]

i see Lakota is not getting much Support here.

do you people deny the rights of the Lakota people to have an independent nation?

I think that you want people to deny this right. I'm not sure what my answer is.

And not Native Americans that are living in that region will get Lakota citizenship.

If the Lakota nation is a nation of its citizens, then I would wonder at the name. Why pick a name that emphasises only some of the citizens?


DC,
Uri Avnery did something similar.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1229205376/

IT SOUNDS like an invented story. And indeed it is.

In this tale, an American politician gets up and declares: The United States was founded by British Protestants who were persecuted in Europe for their Puritan beliefs. Therefore, the United States is an Anglo-Saxon Protestant state.

And he goes on: the United States is also a democratic state. Therefore, people with another background – such as Native Americans, Africans, Latinos, Asians and Jews – enjoy full equality. But they must know that the United States is an Anglo-Saxon nation-state, while they belong to other nation-states.

Sounds far-fetched? Indeed it is. No American politician would dream of uttering such a statement, even if he might feel it in his heart.

Has any President ever said that America is a Christian country? I can't say no for sure. But that would only be half of what Avnery is suggesting in his story.

Everybody understands that the future and robustness of the US-American nation do not depend on the religion and race of the American people. Therefore, there is no “demographic problem” in America. Neurotic demographers like our Arnon Sofer would be considered cranks over there.

I don't enough to confirm that claim.

(Avnery's article is focused on a quote of Livni's, not on America, so the above quotes don't convey its entire meaning.)

[Nogbad]

Do we hold that the right to self determination is paramount? If so then I can't see what the issue is. If, and I say do say if, the majority of Lakotans want their own state then who is to gainsay it. People have done this peacefully like the Czechs and Slovaks or violently like the Croats and Serbians. I think the US would take the former route surely.

Texas, yes Europe is actually very white. In Scotland less than 1% of the population are non-white and most of those are relatively pale Asians. We have had female leaders though - the US has still to bite that bullet non :) ? What is the non-white population of the US 15%+ Perhaps when we have that kind of mix we will have a black EU leader or something too.

[DC]

I think that you want people to deny this right. I'm not sure what my answer is.



If the Lakota nation is a nation of its citizens, then I would wonder at the name. Why pick a name that emphasises only some of the citizens?


DC,
Uri Avnery did something similar.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1229205376/



Has any President ever said that America is a Christian country? I can't say no for sure. But that would only be half of what Avnery is suggesting in his story.



I don't enough to confirm that claim.

(Avnery's article is focused on a quote of Livni's, not on America, so the above quotes don't convey its entire meaning.)

I dont really want you to deny the right.

I just want to get some people to think in more deepth about the Israel/Palestina conflict.

Alot people see absolutely no problem with the creation of Israel. and have zero comprehension for the Palestinians and why so many of them are not really enthusiastic about Israel.

I dont want to say, Israel should not have been created, or should be erased of the map or something like that, in no way. I just want to show how complicated something like that is. People like Texas for example see not to understand the situation, and i thought maybe they see it a little diffrent when they can see a story that would affect them in the same way as the Palestinians was affected.

[DC]

Do we hold that the right to self determination is paramount? If so then I can't see what the issue is. If, and I say do say if, the majority of Lakotans want their own state then who is to gainsay it. People have done this peacefully like the Czechs and Slovaks or violently like the Croats and Serbians. I think the US would take the former route surely.

Texas, yes Europe is actually very white. In Scotland less than 1% of the population are non-white and most of those are relatively pale Asians. We have had female leaders though - the US has still to bite that bullet non :) ? What is the non-white population of the US 15%+ Perhaps when we have that kind of mix we will have a black EU leader or something too.

there is a group of Lakotans that wants independens. but afaik it is initiated by someone who cannot speak for the Lakotan people, as i understand it, they have choosen representants. but afaik non of them is supporting the Independence of Lakota.

i just used it as an example.

[Pardalis]

There are hundreds and hundred of Native Nations throughout the American continent, both North and South, why this one in particular?

[DC]

There are hundreds and hundred of Native Nations throughout the American continent, both North and South, why this one in particular?

ask the people that want an independent Lakota.


Petition for Recognition of Lakotah Sovereignty
February 19, 2008


To All Nations of the World:

Greetings in solidarity.

Lakotah respectfully petitions your government for formal recognition of Lakotah Sovereignty. Accompanying this petition are supporting documents which show, beyond any doubt, the validity and necessity of the reclamation of our sovereignty.

Russell Means
Chief Facilitator
Provisional Government
Republic of Lakotah

and can you give me a list of independent Native American Nations in North America?

[Pardalis]

The closest thing there is is Nunavut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut).

BTW, why did you ask North America? don't the Native Nations of South America count?

Oh right, you wouldn't want to criticize your beloved Venezuela and other Leftist Latin states...

[DC]

The closest thing there is is Nunavut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut).

BTW, why did you ask North America? don't the Native Nations of South America count?

Oh right, you wouldn't want to criticize your beloved Venezuela and other Leftist Latin states...

yeah thats why i hate Evo Morales so much, isnt it, freaking indigenous president he is.....

i asked because you are from North America and not South America.

[Pardalis]

yeah thats why i hate Evo Morales so much, isnt it, freaking indigenous president he is.....

Still, he's not president of an independent Aymara state. So what's your point?

[DC]

Still, he not president of an independent Aymara state. So what's your point?

No he isnt, but would you take a closer look at those nasty leftist Dictators in Venezuela and Bolivia for example, you could see that both of them, granted alot more rights to the indigenous population.
thats not coming close to geting an own independend Nation. And also South American Nations have to be blamed when it comes to genocide and opression of indigenous people.

but no mather, would you support the creation of an independend Nation for native americans in

Argentina?
Peru?
Venezuela?
Bolivia?
Chile?
Brazil?
Mexico?
USA?
Canada?

[Pardalis]

No, if you give one autonomy you give them all, but there are too many of them so it wouldn't be practical, and they couldn't sustain themselves economically.

Would you?

BTW, what country are you from?

[DC]

No, if you give one autonomy you give them all, but there are too many of them so it wouldn't be practical, and they couldn't sustain themselves economically.

Would you?

BTW, what country are you from?

Thanks for your answer.

I dont think i would support it. it will creat alot of problems.
but they oc must have the same rights as everyone else in the country, which is the case in the USA afaik.

But if a group wants a real split like a group of the Lakota wants, i dont know if we should or can hinder them from doing so.


they couldn't sustain themselves economically

Not sure about that. Israel seems also able to do this, i think meanwhile even without our financial support, not sure about it.

I am from Switzerland

[DC]

and no i dont want to give back my country to the Burgundians nor the Alamanni :)

[Pardalis]

I dont think i would support it.

OK so the thread is useless, it was just to antagonize Americans. :rolleyes:

but they oc must have the same rights as everyone else in the country, which is the case in the USA afaik.


They do have the same rights, who says otherwise?

[DC]

OK so the thread is useless, it was just to antagonize Americans. :rolleyes:



They do have the same rights, who says otherwise?

about the point of the thread.

Would you support the creation of Israel today.
Do you support Israel?


and i said afaik they have the same rights, i didnt say they dont have.

[Pardalis]

Off topic, this thread is about the Lakota nation.

[DC]

Off topic, this thread is about the Lakota nation.

no its not off topic.
it is also about a creation of a nation.

ETA: strange, a few posts ago we talked about Venezuela and Bolivia, there you didnt mention that its off topic. but now that i bring Israel to my thread you claim it off topic.

why?

[Pardalis]

ETA: strange, a few posts ago we talked about Venezuela and Bolivia, there you didnt mention that its off topic. but now that i bring Israel to my thread you claim it off topic.

why?
That's because I asked you why you chose to talk about the Lakota nation in particular, and not the other 300 native nations of the continent of America.

See, that was on topic.

[DC]

That's because I asked you why you chose to talk about the Lakota nation in particular, and not the other 300 native nations of the continent of America.

See, that was on topic.

well why do you only want to talk about Native Americans, why not expand it to Jews, they wanted an independent Nation and they got one. and got alot of support.

why the diffrences?

its was an easy and simple question, why are you scared to answer it?

[DC]

you also asked where i am coming from, that was off topic, you had no troubles there. why now?

[DC]

if you want we also can include the Kurds in the topic, alot of them want an independent Nation also.

[Pardalis]

It's a completely different set of circumstances. If you give the Lakota a country, then you have to give all Native Nations a country, and the continent of America would look like swiss cheese...

Oh, right, you like swiss cheese.

[DC]

It's a completely different set of circumstances. If you give the Lakota a country, then you have to give all Native Nations a country, and the continent of America would look like swiss cheese...

Oh, right, you like swiss cheese.

but we gave the Jews a Nation, now we have to give the Kurds also a Nation.
or not?

why do you assume i like swiss cheese? Because i am Swiss?
my favorite Cheese is actually a Belgian cheese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburger_cheese
and second favorite is a frensh one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camembert_(cheese)
i guess that comes from my lack of Patriotism.

[Darth Rotor]

Blood and iron. That test the Lakota did not pass. When they do, welcome to the UN.

why do you assume i like swiss cheese? Because i am Swiss? my favorite Cheese is actually a Belgian cheese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburger_cheese and second favorite is a frensh one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camembert_(cheese)
i guess that comes from my lack of Patriotism.
No sir, it is due to the yumminess of Camembert and Limburger. :) Your patriotism is safe.

DR

[Alt+F4]

If the UN would decide that the Lakota have a right for an own, independent Nation and create a Nation within the USA, in the Region of Dakota. The new Capitol city of Lakota will be Pierre.

Read the Gettysberg Address. The United States is not Israel.

[DC]

Read the Gettysberg Address. The United States is not Israel.

When Lincoln is talking about the death, is he talking about the Native Americans that got slaughtered? or about the death in the Civil war that fought for Liberty? Or did you fight for Liberty against the Native Americans?


and yes the USA is not Israel.

it is Palestine and i wanted to creat Israel on it, the idea was not much liked.

[Alt+F4]

When Lincoln is talking about the death, is he talking about the Native Americans that got slaughtered? or about the death in the Civil war that fought for Liberty? Or did you fight for Liberty against the Native Americans?


and yes the USA is not Israel.

it is Palestine and i wanted to creat Israel on it, the idea was not much liked.

Lincoln's speech that day was redefining the United States as indivisible, and it has remained as such.

However, if you do want to make a comparison, look at the American Revolution. A bunch of illterate one-toothed farmers taking on the most powerful nation in Europe. How'd they do it? With a little help from their friends - the French.

Look at the Middle East, oil wealth beyond imagine. Why don't the Saudis help out their Muslim brothers and sisters in Palestine?

[DC]

Lincoln's speech that day was redefining the United States as indivisible, and it has remained as such.

However, if you do want to make a comparison, look at the American Revolution. A bunch of illterate one-toothed farmers taking on the most powerful nation in Europe. How'd they do it? With a little help from their friends - the French.

Look at the Middle East, oil wealth beyond imagine. Why don't the Saudis help out their Muslim brothers and sisters in Palestine?

but when the Lakota for example, do not want the US occupation anymore. would you hinder them to declare themselfe independent?
What shall they care what Lincoln said? he didnt fight for them, more the other way around.

Iran is "helping" Palestinians for example. Saudis? dunno, seems they are more interested in driving sportcars in the desert.

or is your advice that the Lakota search for powerfull friends and start a bloody war?

[DC]

Lets Imagen the UN are those friends. and a coalition of Chinese, Russian and Cuban army will establish an independent Nation for the Lakota in the USA, would that be OK?

Operation Liberating Lakota

[doobiedoright]

and yes the USA is not Israel.

it is Palestine and i wanted to creat Israel on it, the idea was not much liked.


There is no such place!
Why will not the other Arabs take care of their fellow brethren?
Why not make peace and try and get along?
You know why?
I do....It is because they are a backward people and if they made peace they would have to look at them selves and say things are not right.
The leaders of the arabs want them poor and mad.That way they can lead them around and keep them down with anti human ideas such as sharia law.
Why do you support wife beatings?
Why do you support the killing of women who are raped?

[Alt+F4]

Lets Imagen the UN are those friends. and a coalition of Chinese, Russian and Cuban army will establish an independent Nation for the Lakota in the USA, would that be OK?

Operation Liberating Lakota

Cuba has an army?

If the Chinese and Russians were willing to take on the Americans sure, they could give it a go. Why don't the other Middle Eastern nations do this for the Palestinians?

Hamas is stupid because they don't understand that this is all a waiting game. Israel will be gone in a generation or two due to the high birth rate among Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews who refuse to serve in the military. In the meantime I wish Hamas could explain to me how firing rockets into Israel feeds anyone, educates anyone, gets them health care.

[DC]

There is no such place!
Why will not the other Arabs take care of their fellow brethren?
Why not make peace and try and get along?
You know why?
I do....It is because they are a backward people and if they made peace they would have to look at them selves and say things are not right.
The leaders of the arabs want them poor and mad.That way they can lead them around and keep them down with anti human ideas such as sharia law.
Why do you support wife beatings?
Why do you support the killing of women who are raped?



and what why did the Brits call the terretory they occupied, British Mandate of Palestine ? did they invent it?

was it water in the time it was ruled by the Ottomans or the Egypts?
when ther is no such place, how come the jews are able to prove that they lived there some 3000 years ago? is that a lie?

why do you hate Native Americans?
why do you support the starvation and killing of Palestinian Children?

[DC]

Cuba has an army?

If the Chinese and Russians were willing to take on the Americans sure, they could give it a go. Why don't the other Middle Eastern nations do this for the Palestinians?

Hamas is stupid because they don't understand that this is all a waiting game. Israel will be gone in a generation or two due to the high birth rate among Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews who refuse to serve in the military. In the meantime I wish Hamas could explain to me how firing rockets into Israel feeds anyone, educates anyone, gets them health care.

Hamas used Schools and Hospitals for such things. main reason they are so popular.

the Rockets are just idiotic and counter productive.

but so you would accept a independent native american nation if it is reached by violence and war.

OK.

[doobiedoright]

Seems your question is moot as they already are a nation!
http://lakotaelite.com/

Welcome to the Lakota Nation Invitational Website!
Before you put your foot in your mouth I have native blood running through my vanes.
Most of the first people's are doing rather well.Some are not.
You need to read more if you are going to present this argument.It seems you know not of what you speak!
Better yet come and visit the people you pretend to care for.
Gambling has brought great wealth to a lot of the first peoples nations.
In most places in America the first people are treated with great respect.
There are pow-wows all over the place every week where people come and learn and honor them.
Yes there are some of the lakota's that are struggling.But it is much the same as in the middle east.They want to live the way they did 300 years ago.In that case ,yes the baby's will die and there is not much to do.
For the most part the first people's can and do live side by side with all the rest of the people of America.

[DC]

Seems your question is moot as they already are a nation!
http://lakotaelite.com/

Welcome to the Lakota Nation Invitational Website!
Before you put your foot in your mouth I have native blood running through my vanes.
Most of the first people's are doing rather well.Some are not.
You need to read more if you are going to present this argument.It seems you know not of what you speak!
Better yet come and visit the people you pretend to care for.
Gambling has brought great wealth to a lot of the first peoples nations.
In most places in America the first people are treated with great respect.
There are pow-wows all over the place every week where people come and learn and honor them.
Yes there are some of the lakota's that are struggling.But it is much the same as in the middle east.They want to live the way they did 300 years ago.In that case ,yes the baby's will die and there is not much to do.
For the most part the first people's can and do live side by side with all the rest of the people of America.

Petition for Recognition of Lakotah Sovereignty
February 19, 2008


To All Nations of the World:

Greetings in solidarity.

Lakotah respectfully petitions your government for formal recognition of Lakotah Sovereignty. Accompanying this petition are supporting documents which show, beyond any doubt, the validity and necessity of the reclamation of our sovereignty.

Russell Means
Chief Facilitator
Provisional Government
Republic of Lakotah

you support that call for Sovereignty ?

[DC]

Seems your question is moot as they already are a nation!
http://lakotaelite.com/

Welcome to the Lakota Nation Invitational Website!
Before you put your foot in your mouth I have native blood running through my vanes.
Most of the first people's are doing rather well.Some are not.
You need to read more if you are going to present this argument.It seems you know not of what you speak!
Better yet come and visit the people you pretend to care for.
Gambling has brought great wealth to a lot of the first peoples nations.
In most places in America the first people are treated with great respect.
There are pow-wows all over the place every week where people come and learn and honor them.
Yes there are some of the lakota's that are struggling.But it is much the same as in the middle east.They want to live the way they did 300 years ago.In that case ,yes the baby's will die and there is not much to do.
For the most part the first people's can and do live side by side with all the rest of the people of America.

Jews lived in Diaspora for a very very long time, but somehow a movement was formed that felt they want to go back home, to the mountain Zion, which was oc alot lot strengthened after the Holocaust.

Maybe one day the Lakota or other Native Americans feel they dont longer wnat to be part of the USA. they want an INDEPENDENT State.

would you support it or not?

[WildCat]

Map of Indian reservations in the US lower 48: http://www.nps.gov/history/nagpra/documents/RESERV.PDF

Why would they want their own countries and lose most of that casino revenue?

eta: US Bureau of Indian Affairs web site: http://www.doi.gov/bia/

[doobiedoright]

and what why did the Brits call the terretory they occupied, British Mandate of Palestine ? did they invent it?

was it water in the time it was ruled by the Ottomans or the Egypts?
when ther is no such place, how come the jews are able to prove that they lived there some 3000 years ago? is that a lie?

why do you hate Native Americans?
why do you support the starvation and killing of Palestinian Children?


So now I hat my self....figured a instagator such as your self would say such a thing.

Why does hammas support the starving and killing of their own children?Will firing rockets into Israel make that better or worse?
Will sneaking across the border and having those same children commit self homicide make things better or worse?
Stop all aggression by the arabs and make it so for a year.Then you would have a case.
Why should Israel allow the feeding of people who will only turn around and kill them when they are old enough?
You really believe Israel wants to do this crap every 6 months?
I dont.I bet they would love to live in peace and never have to deal with this crap again.Is that possible...Heck no not when you have people living right beside you who make T.V. programs for the very young telling them the people of Israel want to drink their blood.The problem with the arabs starts at home.Fix it and one day it all can be fixed!

[DC]

So now I hat my self....figured a instagator such as your self would say such a thing.

Why does hammas support the starving and killing of their own children?Will firing rockets into Israel make that better or worse?
Will sneaking across the border and having those same children commit self homicide make things better or worse?
Stop all aggression by the arabs and make it so for a year.Then you would have a case.
Why should Israel allow the feeding of people who will only turn around and kill them when they are old enough?
You really believe Israel wants to do this crap every 6 months?
I dont.I bet they would love to live in peace and never have to deal with this crap again.Is that possible...Heck no not when you have people living right beside you who make T.V. programs for the very young telling them the people of Israel want to drink their blood.The problem with the arabs starts at home.Fix it and one day it all can be fixed!

yeah i know those daily suicide bomb atacks commited by Palestinian Children are pretty counterproductive.

I dont know why a part of the Palestinians do not stop violence.
One is wondering why so much hatred can exist, just because people that lived in the same region like they did, came back and created a Nation in the land that the Palestinians thought to be theirs.
how come they didnt just give back the land? didnt they read the bible and know that it belongs to the jews?

seems like some people will not gve up what they belive is theirs without fighting about it.

[doobiedoright]

Jews lived in Diaspora for a very very long time, but somehow a movement was formed that felt they want to go back home, to the mountain Zion, which was oc alot lot strengthened after the Holocaust.

Maybe one day the Lakota or other Native Americans feel they dont longer wnat to be part of the USA. they want an INDEPENDENT State.

would you support it or not?

You are proving you dont know what your talking about!
For the most part they are INDEPENDENT!
For instance A crime is committed @ the Seminole res in Tampa.Tell me do you think the Tampa P.D responds or maybe the Seminole police do?
Do they go to Hillsboro county jail or stay on the res?
You are arguing from stupidity!
Until you do your home work you should not speak here anymore!
Here let me help you ...

http://www.seminolenation-indianterritory.org/index.html

http://www.semtribe.com/

As established in the Seminole Tribe of Florida's constitution, the Tribal Council is the chief governing body, composed of a Chairman, a Vice-Chairman and Council Representatives from each reservation. Today, the Council administers the Seminole Police Department, the Human Resources programs, the Tribal gaming enterprises, citrus groves, the Billie Swamp Safari, the Ah-Tah-Thi-Ki Museum and the majority of the Tribe's cigarette-related enterprises.


Click this link and lets see how they are dominated by the big bad Americans!

http://www.semtribe.com/services/

Aviation Department

The Big Cypress Airstrip is a private airstrip owned and operated by the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

Authorized aircrafts approved by the Seminole Aviation Department are allowed to utilize the facilities.

The broadcasting department is 100 percent Tribally funded and is under the direction of the Executive Administrator of the Tribal Council

The Education Division is comprised of programs that deliver educational services to all Tribal members ages six weeks through Senior Citizens
This board is made up of 12 Tribal member parents - two from each reservation PAC Committee (Hollywood, Big Cypress, Brighton, Tampa and Immokalee).

The Seminole Health Department staff will provide quality healthcare and promote wellness within the communities to ensure that all individuals reach their health potential.
All homes located on Tribal Reservations are insured by the Housing Department by the direction of Tribal Council under Amerind Insurance

The RHSP was developed by Tribal Council as a hurricane preparedness effort. Through this program, hurricane shutters or impact windows and generators are installed on reservation homes.

In October 1987, the Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida created the Environmental Resource Management Department

Seems you dont know squat there pal.
Funny I dont see anything there about the state or the feds telling them they have to do something.In fact they are much better run and do a whole lot more for their people than the state of Florida does!Seems they are quite INDEPENDENT to me! Maybe you should create another straw man as this one didnt work out to well for you!

[dudalb]

So if we give the land back to the Palestianins, what do we do with the Five Million Jews living there? Another Final Solution?
I honestly think the US splitting up into hundreds of small states is a fantasy that a lot of Left Wing Euros have wet dreams about.

[dudalb]

You are proving you dont know what your talking about!
I have noted a lot of militant USA haters don't know a lot about the US. Probably becuase they go to the worst possible sources.

[DC]

You are proving you dont know what your talking about!
For the most part they are INDEPENDENT!
For instance A crime is committed @ the Seminole res in Tampa.Tell me do you think the Tampa P.D responds or maybe the Seminole police do?
Do they go to Hillsboro county jail or stay on the res?
You are arguing from stupidity!
Until you do your home work you should not speak here anymore!
Here let me help you ...

http://www.seminolenation-indianterritory.org/index.html

http://www.semtribe.com/

As established in the Seminole Tribe of Florida's constitution, the Tribal Council is the chief governing body, composed of a Chairman, a Vice-Chairman and Council Representatives from each reservation. Today, the Council administers the Seminole Police Department, the Human Resources programs, the Tribal gaming enterprises, citrus groves, the Billie Swamp Safari, the Ah-Tah-Thi-Ki Museum and the majority of the Tribe's cigarette-related enterprises.


Click this link and lets see how they are dominated by the big bad Americans!

http://www.semtribe.com/services/

Aviation Department

The Big Cypress Airstrip is a private airstrip owned and operated by the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

Authorized aircrafts approved by the Seminole Aviation Department are allowed to utilize the facilities.

The broadcasting department is 100 percent Tribally funded and is under the direction of the Executive Administrator of the Tribal Council

The Education Division is comprised of programs that deliver educational services to all Tribal members ages six weeks through Senior Citizens
This board is made up of 12 Tribal member parents - two from each reservation PAC Committee (Hollywood, Big Cypress, Brighton, Tampa and Immokalee).

The Seminole Health Department staff will provide quality healthcare and promote wellness within the communities to ensure that all individuals reach their health potential.
All homes located on Tribal Reservations are insured by the Housing Department by the direction of Tribal Council under Amerind Insurance

The RHSP was developed by Tribal Council as a hurricane preparedness effort. Through this program, hurricane shutters or impact windows and generators are installed on reservation homes.

In October 1987, the Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida created the Environmental Resource Management Department

Seems you dont know squat there pal.
Funny I dont see anything there about the state or the feds telling them they have to do something.In fact they are much better run and do a whole lot more for their people than the state of Florida does!Seems they are quite INDEPENDENT to me! Maybe you should create another straw man as this one didnt work out to well for you!

i dont know about the Seminole, but some Lakota seem to want Sovereignty.
it was not my idea. its theirs. they seem not to be happy, they seem to think they are better of as a Sovereign state.

should it be allowed to them to do that?

why the hostility?

[DC]

So if we give the land back to the Palestianins, what do we do with the Five Million Jews living there? Another Final Solution?
I honestly think the US splitting up into hundreds of small states us a fantasy that a lot of Left Wing Euros have wet dreams about.

i would not support the disbandment of the Israeli State.

on page 1 i made a post where i clearly stated what my goal is with that thread.

[DC]

I have noted a lot of militant USA haters don't know a lot about the US. Probably becuase they go to the worst possible sources.

yeah we need an Euro version of FOX news.

[fuelair]

yeah but the UN created Israel in the region of those nasty Arabs, those violent Moslems . sure they need an army, but sure not in civilized USA.
there will be no violent ressistance from US citizens.

what was first the egg or the chicken?
who was first, Native Americans or those that got kicked out of Europe and created the USA?

I have no idea if this is what you are pushing for or not, but the UN devours feces - constantly. It does nothing of any importance, spends a lot of time complaining about the more rational countries but neglecting to complain about those much less so. It gets no points from me - except that I can give it credit for following the Monty Python Rule of Warfare: When attacked, run away. No, there will not be a new nation within the US.

[DC]

I have no idea if this is what you are pushing for or not, but the UN devours feces - constantly. It does nothing of any importance, spends a lot of time complaining about the more rational countries but neglecting to complain about those much less so. It gets no points from me - except that I can give it credit for following the Monty Python Rule of Warfare: When attacked, run away. No, there will not be a new nation within the US.

i guess alot Palestinians also said and thought

No, there will not be a Jewish nation within Palestina.

[doobiedoright]

i dont know about the Seminole, but some Lakota seem to want Sovereignty.
it was not my idea. its theirs. they seem not to be happy, they seem to think they are better of as a Sovereign state.

should it be allowed to them to do that?

why the hostility?

Have you ever been to north or south Dakota?
They have plenty to be miserable about!
A lot of their misery is of their own doing.Stop sitting around crying and complaining and do something about their state of affairs.It appears other first people nations are capable!
Cows always seem to think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.It dosent make it so!
Is there no one in your country who is unhappy?
I doubt it as you seem quite the sour puss!
You can not compare the 2 things you are trying to do.
If the pal people would stop all violence I am certain things would improve greatly!
They seem to think by firing rockets things will improve for them.It dosent say much for their intelligence!
They alone are responsible for their conditions.They alone have the power to change things by changing their attitudes!
You would think after 60 years of misery they could figure this out,apparently not!

[WildCat]

I honestly think the US splitting up into hundreds of small states us a fantasy that a lot of Left Wing Euros have wet dreams about.
If the US government made each of the 304 Indian reservations their own country they'd accuse us of making 304 Bantustans and scream for our blood.

[Pardalis]

Is Dictator Cheney the new Oliver?

[doobiedoright]

Tell me dude did the U.s allow a block aid to stop food and supplies getting to the west Germans?
Do you see all the other arab nations planes lined up in the sky waiting to air drop in supplies?I wonder why that is?Could it be they enjoy using them?
At anytime in the last 60 years has it worked killing any jew they can to get them what they wanted?
in fact just the opposite has happened.One has to ask how many times do you bang your head upon the wall before you figure out it will give you a headache?
A new approach would seem a good idea,I dont know maybe hey Israel we acknowledge your right to live.We will renounce all violence and live in peace with and beside you.Do you think that might work?
I have a funny feeling it would.
Will everyone be happy,no they wont.Then they will see they have been used by the likes of arafat and bin ladden.We have seen in Iraq the people grow tired of terrorist.Has all the violence stopped no but it is way down!

[DC]

Have you ever been to north or south Dakota?
They have plenty to be miserable about!
A lot of their misery is of their own doing.Stop sitting around crying and complaining and do something about their state of affairs.It appears other first people nations are capable!
Cows always seem to think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.It dosent make it so!
Is there no one in your country who is unhappy?
I doubt it as you seem quite the sour puss!
You can not compare the 2 things you are trying to do.
If the pal people would stop all violence I am certain things would improve greatly!
They seem to think by firing rockets things will improve for them.It dosent say much for their intelligence!
They alone are responsible for their conditions.They alone have the power to change things by changing their attitudes!
You would think after 60 years of misery they could figure this out,apparently not!

i have never been in Dakota.
and on page 1 you could see that i would not even support it :)

But its a fact that some do want to get Sovereignty.
and when it is their will. do you want to stop them from doung it? how do you do that?

why dont you give up and alow them to creat their own state?

[DC]

If the US government made each of the 304 Indian reservations their own country they'd accuse us of making 304 Bantustans and scream for our blood.

no we would sue you because you copy our swiss cheese

[DC]

Tell me dude did the U.s allow a block aid to stop food and supplies getting to the west Germans?
Do you see all the other arab nations planes lined up in the sky waiting to air drop in supplies?I wonder why that is?Could it be they enjoy using them?
At anytime in the last 60 years has it worked killing any jew they can to get them what they wanted?
in fact just the opposite has happened.One has to ask how many times do you bang your head upon the wall before you figure out it will give you a headache?
A new approach would seem a good idea,I dont know maybe hey Israel we acknowledge your right to live.We will renounce all violence and live in peace with and beside you.Do you think that might work?
I have a funny feeling it would.
Will everyone be happy,no they wont.Then they will see they have been used by the likes of arafat and bin ladden.We have seen in Iraq the people grow tired of terrorist.Has all the violence stopped no but it is way down!

and how did the "Rosinenbomber" help the Native Americans?

i agree with you wath Palestina should do. but its not what they do, just a few are doing that. and i really hope their number will grow faster and faster.
but thats not what is happening.

and this thread shows to me, that it also would not happen in the USA. Not even you seem to supporting those that want to creat an independent nation.

[doobiedoright]

i have never been in Dakota.
and on page 1 you could see that i would not even support it :)

But its a fact that some do want to get Sovereignty.
and when it is their will. do you want to stop them from doung it? how do you do that?

why dont you give up and alow them to creat their own state?

First they have never asked m!
Second a very small fraction wants this not everyone!
Third why dont you give your country back to who lived there ?
Your questions are stupid and it is clear your hatred for America has blinded you!
By the way your English stinks!
Do you allow what ever people in your country want?
So if I moved there and decide I wanted doobieville you would be cool with that right?
Be sure to leave you address so I know what to include in doobieville.By the way I will be putting a lien on your property so you have to pay me.Oh no did I just come across the reason why some of the Lokatas want to do this?Why yes I did! they clearly state they want to put a lien on everything gee I wonder why?

[doobiedoright]

and how did the "Rosinenbomber" help the Native Americans?

What in the sam heck are you babbling about?
It had nothing to do with them but thanks for not answering the question.You proved my point!








i agree with you wath Palestina should do. but its not what they do, just a few are doing that. and i really hope their number will grow faster and faster.
but thats not what is happening.

and this thread shows to me, that it also would not happen in the USA. Not even you seem to supporting those that want to creat an independent nation.



As a matter of fact no no one will support them.You cant just start breaking up a nation!
Again apples to oranges.There has never been a nation of palistine even araffat admitted that fact sir.
It is just a excuse to kill all the jews and you know this!
You are correct it will not happen in the U.S..You know the country you have never been to but hate so much.
We Americans dont understand you eurowennies.If not for us your continent would be a mess and nothing like what it is today!
You tell us you dont like America getting in everyones business,then you tell us you dont like us cause we wont get involved in peoples business!
You seem to be much like the pals.Dont know what you want,but you just want a world without us in it!
Please remember that the next time some nut job decides he wants to over run your country.DONT CALL US!

[DC]

First they have never asked m!
Second a very small fraction wants this not everyone!
Third why dont you give your country back to who lived there ?
Your questions are stupid and it is clear your hatred for America has blinded you!
By the way your English stinks!
Do you allow what ever people in your country want?
So if I moved there and decide I wanted doobieville you would be cool with that right?
Be sure to leave you address so I know what to include in doobieville.By the way I will be putting a lien on your property so you have to pay me.Oh no did I just come across the reason why some of the Lokatas want to do this?Why yes I did! they clearly state they want to put a lien on everything gee I wonder why?

they have asked. a year ago there was already a thread here on JREF about it :)

Not all Jews wanted Israel, some are even against it.

I dont hate the USA.

i dunno about the smell of my english, but it sucks indeed.

in my country we have laws, and you can do whatever you want aslong you dont violate those laws.

If you moved to my country, after 12 years you can get Swiss nationality. Then you can start a "Volksinitiative" collect 100 000 signatores in 18 months and you can have your doobieville when the majority agrees to have doobieville.
you even could change the swiss constitution. when you can convince enough people to agree :)

[Pardalis]

If you moved to my country, after 12 years you can get Swiss nationality.

12 years? Dear god, no wonder no one wants to emigrate to Switzerland.

[DC]

As a matter of fact no no one will support them.You cant just start breaking up a nation!
Again apples to oranges.There has never been a nation of palistine even araffat admitted that fact sir.
It is just a excuse to kill all the jews and you know this!
You are correct it will not happen in the U.S..You know the country you have never been to but hate so much.
We Americans dont understand you eurowennies.If not for us your continent would be a mess and nothing like what it is today!
You tell us you dont like America getting in everyones business,then you tell us you dont like us cause we wont get involved in peoples business!
You seem to be much like the pals.Dont know what you want,but you just want a world without us in it!
Please remember that the next time some nut job decides he wants to over run your country.DONT CALL US!

was Palestine an empty desert when Israel was created?
and no i didnt know its just an excuse to kill all the jews. what are they waiting for? till al the jews arive in Israel? I would expect atleast the Iranis to start sending their jews to Israel or kill them. why the wait? whats their plan?
you know details?


i said i never been in Dakota, does that mean i never was in the USA?

oh and now we are down to, i want a world without the USA :)
im not with you, so i am against you, so i want your total destruction, sure.
and you claim to not understand us euroweenies? you seem to even know our secret plan :rolleyes:

[DC]

12 years? Dear god, no wonder no one wants to emigrate to Switzerland.

while there still are alot people that emigrate to Switzerland i myself find it also much to long, i think 3 years like in Canada is fair.

[DC]

12 years? Dear god, no wonder no one wants to emigrate to Switzerland.

after a little googling i see that in Canada there is also a fear to be dependent on immigration for the population to grow.
while in canada it seems only 2/3 of the annual population is cause of migration, in switzerland we are already at 80%.

afaik is the immigration in Canada about 270 000 people per year.
in switzerland we are around 160 000 per year.

when we compare our countrys, there seem to be alot of people that want to come to switzerland :)
Canada
9.984.670 km²
32.976.026 people
Switzerland
41'285 km²
7'591'400 people

[dudalb]

And, as someone mentioned, the vast majority of Lakota took one look at the proposal and laughed their heads off, and pursued more practical ways of helping their people.

[dudalb]

And,BTW, even if the Lakota nations was formed based on that map, guess what? The Lakota would be outnumbered by the White Eyes now residing in the Dakotas and neighboring states.

[DC]

vast majority of Lakota

where can i find those numbers?

[Pardalis]

while in canada it seems only 2/3 of the annual population is cause of migration, in switzerland we are already at 80%.


What does that prove? That Canadians still know how to ****?

Completely off topic as usual.

[dudalb]

Ah, for the good old days when the Swiss were making a honest living as Mercanaries..."no Money, No Swiss"...

[DC]

Ah, for the good old days when the Swiss were making a honest living as Mercanaries..."no Money, No Swiss"...

yeah, since our constitution only allow those funny dressed guys in the vatican, most went to the Banking and Pharma bussines.

[sackett]

Russel Means is still around?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel_Means

That Russel Means?

Wah! Him heap crazy Injun all time!

[DC]

afaik thats him yes

[IDB87]

Perhaps it the United States ceased to be a country, and refugees from other parts of the country flocked to the land of 'Lakota', there would be good reason for the U.N. to designate part of the land to be a country, if it met certain criteria laid out by the assembly.

Of course, they key here is if the United States ceased to exist.

[dudalb]

Russel Means is still around?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel_Means

That Russel Means?

Wah! Him heap crazy Injun all time!


Wow his film career went downhill. From a really good film like "Last Of The Mohicans" to crap like "Pathfinder".
So did his sanity if he actually thinks he has a chance in hell of bringing about a "Lakota Republic".

[DC]

And, as someone mentioned, the vast majority of Lakota took one look at the proposal and laughed their heads off, and pursued more practical ways of helping their people.

where can i find polls or similar about what the Lakota people think about it?

[dudalb]

where can i find polls or similar about what the Lakota people think about it?

No polls, but you don't see many Lakotas jumping on the Lakota Republic bandwagon.
And I see you are ignoring that the majority of people in the land claimed for the Lakota Republic are of non Lakota origin.

[DC]

Perhaps it the United States ceased to be a country, and refugees from other parts of the country flocked to the land of 'Lakota', there would be good reason for the U.N. to designate part of the land to be a country, if it met certain criteria laid out by the assembly.

Of course, they key here is if the United States ceased to exist.

why? the USA was founded on land that belonged to them. and they only want the part thats theirs now. not the whole USA. just a part of it.

[DC]

No polls, but you don't see many Lakotas jumping on the Lakota Republic bandwagon.

i dont see much Lakotas :p

but is there an opposition within the Lakota to it? or how did you find out that the vast majority is laughing about it?

[drkitten]

Perhaps it the United States ceased to be a country, and refugees from other parts of the country flocked to the land of 'Lakota', there would be good reason for the U.N. to designate part of the land to be a country, if it met certain criteria laid out by the assembly.

Especially if the USA had ceased to exist years ago and the actual administration of the area was in the hands of a foreign government that was willing to go along with the UN's plans for partitioning that part of the land and creating a new Lakhota homeland.


Of course, they key here is if the United States ceased to exist.


A key that will unfortunately be lost on a number of readers.

[drkitten]

why? the USA was founded on land that belonged to them. and they only want the part thats theirs now. not the whole USA. just a part of it.

Because the land doesn't belong to the UN and never has.

Unlike British Mandate Palestine,... which was entrusted to the British to administer when the "legitimate" owner, the Ottoman empire, ceased to exist in the aftermath of the first World War. As spoils of war, the British could have legitimately claimed it outright, and it was actually rather nice of them to agree only to hold it as trustee.

It's the difference between my finding a $100 on the street and deciding how I want to divide it, and my finding $100 in your wallet.

[IDB87]

why? the USA was founded on land that belonged to them. and they only want the part thats theirs now. not the whole USA. just a part of it.

You said that the U.N. would create this nation (rather, if it should be created) based on land ownership. Is there anything in the U.S. Constitution that allows a foreign entity the privlage of designating a part of the Union to succeed and become its' own state? Is it legal for the U.N. to do that, if the United States still exists as a sovereign country?

[dudalb]

I would love to see the UN try to enforce a decison to create Lakota Land.
Somehow I don't think member nations would be anxious to contribute troops to fight the US.

[DC]

Because the land doesn't belong to the UN and never has.

Unlike British Mandate Palestine,... which was entrusted to the British to administer when the "legitimate" owner, the Ottoman empire, ceased to exist in the aftermath of the first World War. As spoils of war, the British could have legitimately claimed it outright, and it was actually rather nice of them to agree only to hold it as trustee.

It's the difference between my finding a $100 on the street and deciding how I want to divide it, and my finding $100 in your wallet.

so it is ok when a nation is occupying foreign land and they give parts of it to people that originally came from that region a long time ago. that will come to that place from all over the world.

But when the remaining people of some native american tribes that got theyr land occupyed by foreign people do not longer want to belong to the country are not alowed sovereignity?

[DC]

well actually i would not expect force would be needed.
havent the Lakota a right for an own souvereign nation?

[dudalb]

well actually i would not expect force would be needed.
havent the Lakota a right for an own souvereign nation?

Never heard of the Confederacy, did you?
God, your total lack of reality is astounding.

[IDB87]

so it is ok when a nation is occupying foreign land and they give parts of it to people that originally came from that region a long time ago. that will come to that place from all over the world. But when the remaining people of some native american tribes that got theyr land occupyed by foreign people do not longer want to belong to the country are not alowed sovereignity?

You're starting to confuse yourself. Simmer down.

[Thunder]

Oklahoma was supposed to be all for the native Americans. I say we keep that promise and kick out the Sooners.

[IDB87]

well actually i would not expect force would be needed.
havent the Lakota a right for an own souvereign nation?

Are the Lakota, right now, U.S. citizens?

[sackett]

Wow his film career went downhill. From a really good film like "Last Of The Mohicans" to crap like "Pathfinder".
So did his sanity if he actually thinks he has a chance in hell of bringing about a "Lakota Republic".

Russel's sanity went west a long time ago, way back in the 60s. (Me heap plenty winters man, know alltime him Russel, what he do. Him loco sumbitch.) But even he knows perfectly well that the Lakhota* are an Algonquin people, with roots much farther east than the Black Hills. They only started riding horses about 1725, and pushed their way into the Plains rather later still. Their claim to Dakota Territory is based on about equal parts theft, ethnic cleansing, hot air, and wasichu ignorance. Rather like a certain Near Eastern polity already mentioned in this dumb mutha of a thread.



*A more accurate spelling. The k is aspirated. But I thought Russell was a Teton Sioux, and would say Nakhota. Oh well. He speaks the language as well as I do.

[DC]

Are the Lakota, right now, U.S. citizens?

i dont know. have they already their own passports and driverlicences?
they seem to planing that and change from US citizenship to citizenship of the Republic of Lakotah.

[WildCat]

If I remember correctly back in the early 1600's there was a Sioux tribe in Wisconsin that was starving to death in a brutal winter. In an attempt to make a peace gesture another tribe who were historical enemies of them, the Illini tribe from (of course) Illinois, sent 500 men carrying food to the starving Sioux tribe. The Sioux were ever so grateful for this wonderful gesture, and arranged a big celebration for their guests. Then with everyone dancing around the bonfire the Sioux warriors killed all 500 of their Illini guests and ate them.

The Illini were kind of like the bastard stepchildren of the Indian tribes, everyone loved to kick their asses. They had also made the mistake of allying themselves with the French when the French decided to teach the Chickasaw tribe a lesson. The Chickasaw slaughtered most of the French and Illini war party that had come to destroy them, and captured the rest which they tortured to death (burning alive was a favorite method) for amusement. By the time whites settled Illinois virtually nothing remained of them but the name of their former territory.

Those crazy Indians!

[drkitten]

so it is ok when a nation is occupying foreign land and they give parts of it to people that originally came from that region a long time ago. that will come to that place from all over the world.

Yes, when a nation is legitimately occupying foreign land, they can do more or less anything they want with it.


But when the remaining people of some native american tribes that got theyr land occupyed by foreign people do not longer want to belong to the country are not alowed sovereignity?

Yes, a conquered people are not allowed sovereignty, because they lost that when they were conquered. That's what being conquered means. Similarly, client states that have surrendered their sovereignty by treaty are no longer sovereignty; that's what surrender means.

[drkitten]

Are the Lakota, right now, U.S. citizens?

Yes, they are.

No, they do not have their own passports and driving licences.

A passport from the Lakhota nation would be useless, as no country in the world -- including the USA -- would accept it. I might as well print up passports for the Feline Republic of drkitten and see how well that flies the next time I head to Vancouver.

I might get lucky and get an immigration agent with a sense of humor. And Canadian police are polite, at least....

[DC]

so if the Palestinians would occupy Israel they can do with it what they want?

this means, the Lakotah should not declare souveregnity, they should try to occupy the land they want to be theirs.

sounds civilized....

[DC]

Yes, they are.

No, they do not have their own passports and driving licences.

A passport from the Lakhota nation would be useless, as no country in the world -- including the USA -- would accept it. I might as well print up passports for the Feline Republic of drkitten and see how well that flies the next time I head to Vancouver.

I might get lucky and get an immigration agent with a sense of humor. And Canadian police are polite, at least....

and when Nations in the world start accepting the souveregnity of the Republic of Lakotah?

[IDB87]

so if the Palestinians would occupy Israel they can do with it what they want?

:eye-poppi

You are so far off the mark it's incredible.

[DC]

:eye-poppi

You are so far off the mark it's incredible.

Yes, when a nation is legitimately occupying foreign land, they can do more or less anything they want with it. i got told.

[IDB87]

Yes, when a nation is legitimately occupying foreign land, they can do more or less anything they want with it. i got told.

Unless it belongs to a greater entity - like the United States or the Ottoman Empire. The existance of those entities prohibits the formation of a State within its' borders.

Is there some confusion?

[WildCat]

Is there some confusion?
I am certain the confusion is deliberate.

[DC]

Unless it belongs to a greater entity - like the United States or the Ottoman Empire. The existance of those entities prohibits the formation of a State within its' borders.

Is there some confusion?

when the Lakotah will conquer the land they will oc draw new borders.

[Alareth]

i see Lakota is not getting much Support here.



Nope.

As the largest of the federally recognized indian tribes in the US, I would prefer my Cherokee bretheren be given our own country first.

We deserve it what with that pesky Trail of Tears incident and all.

The Carolinas would be the perfect place for it.

[WildCat]

when the Lakotah will conquer the land they will oc draw new borders.
They did that once before. Unfortunately for them, soon after another people came along and did the same to them.

[drkitten]

and when Nations in the world start accepting the souveregnity of the Republic of Lakotah?

That's not going to happen in your lifetime. A country that recognized the breakaway Lakhota state would be handing the USA a cassus belli on a plate. Any country powerful enough to avoid being summarily stomped into the ground by the Marine Corps is large enough that is is economically tied to the USA and would be crippled by a trade embargo.

Even Venezuela wasn't dumb enough to fall for that one, which probably ticked off the oil hawks in the Pentagon to no end.

[sackett]

so ... the Lakotah should not declare souveregnity, they should try to occupy the land they want to be theirs....

Well, it wouldn't be the first time they tried it.

Odd that the Sioux should have become a poster-child tribe. Their savagery was of a full-blown Eastern Woodlands ghastliness, only hinted at above. They first appear in Lewis and Clark's journal as a bunch of river-pirates, dangerous until faced down, an ill-looking crew running to big bellies and thin arms.* They never amounted to a lot until they acquired horses and trade goods, and they lived as much by rapine as by hunting. Their current tribal politics are rather of the Sicilian persuasion, tempered by epidemic diabetes, alcoholism, and despair. I hope to Christ they find better advocates than Dictator Cheney.**




*To be sure, L & C were rather biased against them after the faceoff on the Missouri. Being threatened with massacre sours a man's temper.

**I know, I know. He doesn't understand or care two sous about the Lakhota or any other Indians, he just wants to twit the Americans for their zionism. But I'm not that worried about the Sioux; they've always known the difference between a useful idiot and the other kind.

[DC]

That's not going to happen in your lifetime. A country that recognized the breakaway Lakhota state would be handing the USA a cassus belli on a plate. Any country powerful enough to avoid being summarily stomped into the ground by the Marine Corps is large enough that is is economically tied to the USA and would be crippled by a trade embargo.

Even Venezuela wasn't dumb enough to fall for that one, which probably ticked off the oil hawks in the Pentagon to no end.

Marine Corps? you would send Marine Corps to switzerland if we would dear to accept the souvereignity of the Republic of Lakotah?

[Thunder]

Yes, when a nation is legitimately occupying foreign land, they can do more or less anything they want with it. i got told.

You are aware that Israel's military occupation of the West Bank is legal. The settlements, however, are not.

[DC]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time they tried it.

Odd that the Sioux should have become a poster-child tribe. Their savagery was of a full-blown Eastern Woodlands ghastliness, only hinted at above. They first appear in Lewis and Clark's journal as a bunch of river-pirates, dangerous until faced down, an ill-looking crew running to big bellies and thin arms.* They never amounted to a lot until they acquired horses and trade goods, and they lived as much by rapine as by hunting. Their current tribal politics are rather of the Sicilian persuasion, tempered by epidemic diabetes, alcoholism, and despair. I hope to Christ they find better advocates than Dictator Cheney.**




*To be sure, L & C were rather biased against them after the faceoff on the Missouri. Being threatened with massacre sours a man's temper.

**I know, I know. He doesn't understand or care two sous about the Lakhota or any other Indians, he just wants to twit the Americans for their zionism. But I'm not that worried about the Sioux; they've always known the difference between a useful idiot and the other kind.

it seems that they blame those things on beeing part of the USA. and for some reason they seem to belive sovereignity will change that in a positive way.

[DC]

You are aware that Israel's military occupation of the West Bank is legal. The settlements, however, are not.

yes.

[drkitten]

Marine Corps? you would send Marine Corps to switzerland if we would dear to accept the souvereignity of the Republic of Lakotah?

Quite probably. Declaring war on the USA usually proves angry responses.

Fortunately, I'm sure that we could rebuild your economy afterwards. Look at the bang-up job we did in Afghanistan.

[Thunder]

yes.

Until a peace treaty is signed between the PLO and Israel, it is Israel's right to occupy the West Bank. thats what international law says in regards to land conquered in war time. the victorious party may occupy conquered territory...but may NOT settle its civilians there..until the status is agreed upon.

[DC]

Quite probably. Declaring war on the USA usually proves angry responses.

Fortunately, I'm sure that we could rebuild your economy afterwards. Look at the bang-up job we did in Afghanistan.

na we didnt decalre war on the USA, just accept the Republic of Lakotah.

oh yeah cant wait to get the amazing economic conditions in Switzerland like you created in Afghanistan. I can see the poppy fields already coming...

[drkitten]

it seems that they blame those things on beeing part of the USA. and for some reason they seem to belive sovereignity will change that in a positive way.

If by "they" you mean "the lone idiot, Russel Means," then, yes, they do.

It appears from Wikipedia that only four, including Mr. Means, have been willing to sign onto this idea. Mr. Means has been unable to garner the support of ANY of the groups of Lakhota, nor have any tribal elders signed on to his plan.

So you're looking at the 9/11 Troofers and Ronulans of Indian politics. And giving them much more legitimacy than they merit.

[DC]

Until a peace treaty is signed between the PLO and Israel, it is Israel's right to occupy the West Bank. thats what international law says in regards to land conquered in war time. the victorious party may occupy conquered territory...but may NOT settle its civilians there..until the status is agreed upon.

the Lakotah are there already, i guess settlements would not be the issue.

[DC]

If by "they" you mean "the lone idiot, Russel Means," then, yes, they do.

It appears from Wikipedia that only four, including Mr. Means, have been willing to sign onto this idea. Mr. Means has been unable to garner the support of ANY of the groups of Lakhota, nor have any tribal elders signed on to his plan.

So you're looking at the 9/11 Troofers and Ronulans of Indian politics. And giving them much more legitimacy than they merit.

thats why i asked for numbers or sources that would show what the Lakotah people think about it.

[IDB87]

thats why i asked for numbers or sources that would show what the Lakotah people think about it.

Wouldn't that be your job?

[DC]

Wouldn't that be your job?

i am not the one that claims to know what the vast majority of Lakotah thinks about it.

[WildCat]

thats why i asked for numbers or sources that would show what the Lakotah people think about it.
Here's the "Republic of Lakotah" forum: http://republicoflakotah.ws/forums/

I suggest you spend all your time there gathering facts. Feel free to report back to us in 1 year or so. ;)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If the UN would decide that the Lakota have a right for an own, independent Nation and create a Nation within the USA, in the Region of Dakota. The new Capitol city of Lakota will be Pierre.

would you support it?

No. They would have to get jobs and support themselves.

[DC]

Here's the "Republic of Lakotah" forum: http://republicoflakotah.ws/forums/

I suggest you spend all your time there gathering facts. Feel free to report back to us in 1 year or so. ;)

isnt a very objective view one gets there. untill now i only found supporters.

[Sefarst]

No. They would have to get jobs and support themselves.

If a lot of the people on this site get their way (I'm looking at you, Skeptigirl), they will have a "right to food" among other things and we in the US will still end up supporting them.

[WildCat]

isnt a very objective view one gets there. untill now i only found supporters.
That's the whole point! Ask them how many there are, what their plans are, what their goals are, why they feel the way they do.

It would be far more productive than asking us here, wouldn't it?

[sackett]

it seems that they blame those things on beeing part of the USA. and for some reason they seem to belive sovereignity will change that in a positive way.

I doubt that any Sioux except for -- I still find it hard to articulate this -- Russel Means blame where they live for their troubles. I hope that the responsible members of the tribe recognize that when a lesser people collides with a greater one, it's apt to suffer disorganization and fragmentation. Perhaps a few Lakhota can even reflect that, well, their culture was never very big potatoes to start with; it had already suffered from radical changes and dislocations before meeting white man; perhaps it lacked coherence; perhaps it was too simple, too brutal, too ignorant to respond well to the impact of a much more advanced society. Perhaps (I'm still expressing my hopes) the Sioux realize that any fool can hunt buffalo and scalps, but the rest of the world does more sophisticated things, and the First Peoples (I like that Canadian phrase) will be walked on and over until they learn to do them too.

Come to think of it, the Lakhota and the Palestinians aren't very closely parallel cases. The Near East is anciently literate and civilized. It can learn from its past, if it chooses to. It can be sophisticated, politically and culturally. It has resources, at least potentially, that no unlettered, a-historical, thin-layered hunting people can possibly possess.

So the Plastineans have no excuse, and I wouldn't trade sick, sorry Russel Means for any ten of the best ones you can find.

(btw, Dick, do you have any first-hand experience of Indians? Gypsies? Lapps? Palestinians? Not even Basques?)

[DC]

I doubt that any Sioux except for -- I still find it hard to articulate this -- Russel Means blame where they live for their troubles. I hope that the responsible members of the tribe recognize that when a lesser people collides with a greater one, it's apt to suffer disorganization and fragmentation. Perhaps a few Lakhota can even reflect that, well, their culture was never very big potatoes to start with; it had already suffered from radical changes and dislocations before meeting white man; perhaps it lacked coherence; perhaps it was too simple, too brutal, too ignorant to respond well to the impact of a much more advanced society. Perhaps (I'm still expressing my hopes) the Sioux realize that any fool can hunt buffalo and scalps, but the rest of the world does more sophisticated things, and the First Peoples (I like that Canadian phrase) will be walked on and over until they learn to do them too.

Come to think of it, the Lakhota and the Palestinians aren't very closely parallel cases. The Near East is anciently literate and civilized. It can learn from its past, if it chooses to. It can be sophisticated, politically and culturally. It has resources, at least potentially, that no unlettered, a-historical, thin-layered hunting people can possibly possess.

So the Plastineans have no excuse, and I wouldn't trade sick, sorry Russel Means for any ten of the best ones you can find.

(btw, Dick, do you have any first-hand experience of Indians? Gypsies? Lapps? Palestinians? Not even Basques?)

i know a few Palestinians and i work together with a Basque, why?

[DC]

That's the whole point! Ask them how many there are, what their plans are, what their goals are, why they feel the way they do.

It would be far more productive than asking us here, wouldn't it?

woudnt that be like asking Alex Jones how many people belive 9/11 to be an inside job?

[WildCat]

woudnt that be like asking Alex Jones how many people belive 9/11 to be an inside job?
You don't think you're capable of detecting BS if that's what they decide to feed you? Why are you afraid of signing up there?

I do notice they have only 272 members of the forum, and it's unlikely all of them are Lakotahs who want independence.

[DC]

You don't think you're capable of detecting BS if that's what they decide to feed you? Why are you afraid of signing up there?

I do notice they have only 272 members of the forum, and it's unlikely all of them are Lakotahs who want independence.

would you detect BS if i tell you about what a small group of people thiks about an issue in my region?

[WildCat]

would you detect BS if i tell you about what a small group of people thiks about an issue in my region?
~sigh~

You can lead a horse to water...

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If a lot of the people on this site get their way (I'm looking at you, Skeptigirl), they will have a "right to food" among other things and we in the US will still end up supporting them.

:D

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Let me be the first to welcome our Lakota overlords.

[Texas]

would you detect BS if i tell you about what a small group of people thiks about an issue in my region?

Here is another group that wishes to break away from the US.
http://www.texas.freecountries.org/ Texas has actually been an independent nation but support for secession is not even a blip on the radar.

[DC]

Here is another group that wishes to break away from the US.
http://www.texas.freecountries.org/ Texas has actually been an independent nation but support for secession is not even a blip on the radar.

i can imagen alot non texans supporting a secession of Texas.

[Texas]

i can imagen alot non texans supporting a secession of Texas. Then they would freeze in the dark.

[Texas]

na we didnt decalre war on the USA, just accept the Republic of Lakotah.

... I don't think Washington DC would even blink an eye. Hell whoever the President was at the time of that recognition would laugh his/her ass off. I wonder if the Swiss would build an embassy on the reservation and who would volunteer for that plum assignment as ambassador.

[DC]

I don't think Washington DC would even blink an eye. Hell whoever the President was at the time of that recognition would laugh his/her ass off. I wonder if the Swiss would build an embassy on the reservation and who would volunteer for that plum assignment as ambassador.

why not, we also have a embassy in the USA, why not also one in the Republic of Lakotah.

[Texas]

why not, we also have a embassy in the USA, why not also one in the Republic of Lakotah. Hell go for it. Should the Lakota "Republic" come about they have a total population of about 60 thousand so I would think the Swiss would jump for the chance of gaining such a large trading partner. I don't know what they would trade but hell this is a fantasy thread so let's go for broke.

[DC]

Hell go for it. Should the Lakota "Republic" come about they have a total population of about 60 thousand so I would think the Swiss would jump for the chance of gaining such a large trading partner. I don't know what they would trade but hell this is a fantasy thread so let's go for broke.

so? we also have an embassy in Liechtenstein, they have only 35 000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein

[Texas]

so? we also have an embassy in Liechtenstein, they have only 35 000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein
Hey if the Swiss want to recognize a "country" that does not exist then march on. It would be a hoot. The "Mouse that Roared" comes to mind.

[DC]

Hey if the Swiss want to recognize a "country" that does not exist then march on. It would be a hoot. The "Mouse that Roared" comes to mind.

isnt it said that elephants are scared by a mouse? :D

[Texas]

isnt it said that elephants are scared by a mouse? :D
Well hell being a fantasy thread yes elephants are scared of mice. So the flea crawling up the elephant's leg really does have rape on its mind?

[KoihimeNakamura]

Well, let's say that tommorow, sepreatists take Zunich. And declare themselves the Independent Empire of Anvilia.

This is an act of rebllion against Switzerland. Let's say France gives them recogniztion. By that, they are making it a war, a conflict between two nation states, and have tactitly declared war on Switzerland.

Replace Anvilia -> Lakota; Switzerland->US; France->Switzerland.

[DC]

Well, let's say that tommorow, sepreatists take Zunich. And declare themselves the Independent Empire of Anvilia.

This is an act of rebllion against Switzerland. Let's say France gives them recogniztion. By that, they are making it a war, a conflict between two nation states, and have tactitly declared war on Switzerland.

Replace Anvilia -> Lakota; Switzerland->US; France->Switzerland.

you mean Zürich?
im from Basel, who ever wants, can have Zürich, really. Its propably our least liked city we have :)

Actually there would be a legal way to gain independence for Zürich.
we have a very strong Direct democracy. They can use a Initiative and we could vote about it.

when they use that way, i see no problem with any nation recognising Zürichs souvereignity.

[Skeptic]

But, Rika, it's only an act of war when it happens to OTHER countries. It's a no-no for people to randomly declare themselves a "nation" and take away land from Switzerland. But we all know the USA is the evil empire, so doing it to the USA is OK...

[dudalb]

Are the Lakota, right now, U.S. citizens?

You bet. In the Dakotas, many have served in the State Legislature and I think a few Have been elected to congress.
Ben Nighthorse Campbell, who I think was a Lakota but certainly a Native American (although I really the Canucks have a better term in "First Nation")
was the Senator From Colorado for a few years.
Native Americans have had full citizenship since 1926.

[dudalb]

If by "they" you mean "the lone idiot, Russel Means," then, yes, they do.

It appears from Wikipedia that only four, including Mr. Means, have been willing to sign onto this idea. Mr. Means has been unable to garner the support of ANY of the groups of Lakhota, nor have any tribal elders signed on to his plan.

So you're looking at the 9/11 Troofers and Ronulans of Indian politics. And giving them much more legitimacy than they merit.

I ran this by one of my co workers who is a 100% Lakota and he said the Lakota republic is a considered a bad joke by 99% of the Lakotas.
They have their issues with the Federal Government Policy toward the Lakotas..and well they should, Means is right that the record of the US when it comes to observing treaties with the Lakota is horrid...but no a Indepedent Lakota nation is A. Just not going to happen and B. is probably not such a good idea in the first place.

[dudalb]

But, Rika, it's only an act of war when it happens to OTHER countries. It's a no-no for people to randomly declare themselves a "nation" and take away land from Switzerland. But we all know the USA is the evil empire, so doing it to the USA is OK...


Oh, I think the Balkanization of the US into dozens of small nations is a fantasy held by a lot of the US haters.
I notice that Dictator Cheney has not noticied my pointing out that on the map of the land claimed by the "Republic of Lakota" the vast majority of people living there are Non Lakota Whites. Of course reality does not seem to enter much into DC when it comes to the US.

[drkitten]

Oh, I think the Balkanization of the US into dozens of small nations is a fantasy held by a lot of the US haters.

Check out SirPhillip's thread in the science section on the Russian professor who is predicting the Balkanization of the USA in the next year.

It's just like a comedy club, except without the two-drink minimum.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I dont really want you to deny the right.

I just want to get some people to think in more deepth about the Israel/Palestina conflict.

Alot people see absolutely no problem with the creation of Israel. and have zero comprehension for the Palestinians and why so many of them are not really enthusiastic about Israel.



I would support as new nation called Lakota, but only if it was created without throwing other people out of their homes, off their land, spent the next 60 years persecuting them and ghettoising them in camps like Gaza and keeping them just this side of starving.

I fully support the right of Jews, Lakotans, Martians or anyone else to have a homeland but I don't support the manner in which SIrael was both created and the way it has acted since it was created. It's disgusting. but then the people who worked to create Israel didn't care two crapolas about those who suffered in the process.

[Skeptic]

It's just like a comedy club, except without the two-drink minimum.

I'm not so sure. A lot of the anti-USAers here have me thinking "what are they drinking?", but the total lack of humor or wit on their part suggests, frighteningly, that they're actually sober.

I notice that Dictator Cheney has not noticied my pointing out that on the map of the land claimed by the "Republic of Lakota" the vast majority of people living there are Non Lakota Whites.

What???? Non-Lakotans living somewhere some Lakotans claim is theirs?!?!

OCCUPIERS!!!!!
COLONIALISTS!!!!!

(Angery demonstrations in front of the US embassy)

"Free Lakota! Free Lakota! Free Lakota!"
"Death to USA! Death to USA! Death to USA!"
"End the occupation! End the occupation!"

(Idiot commentators on bulletin boards)

"It is typical that everybody who is against the occupation of Lakota is tarred with the 'anti-USA' brush. We are NOT against Americans -- we just are trying to kill all the Americans that live where we can see them or don't want them, and make our land completely free of American scum. The American scum can live anywhere else -- until we decide that place is part of the holy Lakotan land, too."

"They just have to know their place, you know -- why do they think they can move into Lakotan neighborhoods, and speak to Lakotan girls on the street, and not expect to be lynched?"

[DC]

but then the people who worked to create Israel didn't care two crapolas about those who suffered in the process.

and you show zero comprehension for the jews in that case. While it sure is no excuse, but i guess after the Holocaust, as a jew i would be freaking scared about non jewish "humans" and prolly would not think much about the people living where i want to creat my new home.

[sackett]

i know a few Palestinians and i work together with a Basque, why?

Delightful. Now: Ask those members of non-nationalities how they really feel about setting up their own bantustans inside some other country. Ask them what chances they really think they have of ever doing so.

Most importantly, ask them, if somebody should succeed in creating Palestine or Euscaldia, "What then? Who will govern your new little country? How will they govern it? How badly will you personally want to live there?"

I think you'll be surprised by the hard-headed answers you get, especially from the Basque, who's after all a European and knows what befalls dinky little ad-hoc countries.

[DC]

Delightful. Now: Ask those members of non-nationalities how they really feel about setting up their own bantustans inside some other country. Ask them what chances they really think they have of ever doing so.

Most importantly, ask them, if somebody should succeed in creating Palestine or Euscaldia, "What then? Who will govern your new little country? How will they govern it? How badly will you personally want to live there?"

I think you'll be surprised by the hard-headed answers you get, especially from the Basque, who's after all a European and knows what befalls dinky little ad-hoc countries.

wow the guys you work together are your best friends?

I never talked about the Spanish/Basque conflict with him.

A Palestinian state is the biggest dream the palestinians i know, have.
But actually non of them ever claimed Israel has no right to exist or demands it destruction.

I am suprised that you seem to think you know what the Basque will anser, are all basques the same? i dont know, i only know one. Do they all think the same?

Ask those members of non-nationalities how they really feel about setting up their own bantustans inside some other country

the Jews belonged also to the members of non.nationalities. They wanted to set up an own nation and they sucessfully did it in another country. the "owner" of that country, the Brits, agreed on it, the poeple living there not so much.
Should the jews also not have set up their own bantustan?

BTW: i know 2 Kurds, one is always talking about seting up Kurdistan and showing me old maps that showed how big the Kurdish area actually is and that it all should belong to them.
The other one is atm. in the Turkish army. Does not think its a smart idea to set up Kurdistan, especially considering the problem something like that caused in Israel/Palestina.
I guess Kurds are not like Basques, the kurds seem to not all think the same way.

[shadron]

Tell us, Cheney, do the Helvetii (the original ones, in the time of Caesar) still live in Switzerland? Do they want autonomy for themselves? Do they want to use your home, your city to do it?

Think about this as you would Azerbaijan, except that the people clamoring for land are the 250 or so top rabble rousers in the province. That's essentially what the Lakota independence movement is all about. Russell Means is a poliical activist who happens to be an Indian, but make no mistake about which part is the more important. The rest of the Indians suffered, on the average, through a miserable 150 years, but they are, many of them, starting to get their piece, and don't want anyone upseting the apple cart.

The relationship between the white man and the American Indian is complicated. No Indian cilture that I'm aware of had a concept of property; that put them at a mojor disadvantage out of the gate. Right now an Indian, if he is certified by a council, has essentially independent citizenship in bioth the country and the Indan nation. He might renounce his US citizenship, as may anyone, but that may mean he has to give up jobs, and perhaps even residence. The Federal government treat reservations as if they are special-purpose states. The states they are in cannot tax them, and cannot rule over them (which is why they host casinos in states that otherwise outlaw them), but for he most part the concils and the states have come to agreements about police, fire, taxes and so on. Some of the states like it; they get some rake off the casinos, and still remain antivice.

There are parts of the history of Indians which, as a white American, I am not particularly proud of, but we are what we are, and I wasn't making decisions back then. I can't even claim I'd have done better. It also makes just as much sense for you, as a white European, to be somewhat shamed; after all, there's damned little difference between you and me but an accident of parentage, 10,000 miles and about 40 years, I judge.

[gumboot]

If the UN would decide that the Lakota have a right for an own, independent Nation and create a Nation within the USA, in the Region of Dakota. The new Capitol city of Lakota will be Pierre.

would you support it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people



The UN has no authority to create a nation.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

and you show zero comprehension for the jews in that case. While it sure is no excuse, but i guess after the Holocaust, as a jew i would be freaking scared about non jewish "humans" and prolly would not think much about the people living where i want to creat my new home.

Nonsense.

It's nothing to do with the Holocaust. All this was started in the late 1800s with Herzl and crew, way way way before the Holocaust. The backing of the four great powers as ratified by Balfour as not giving a damn about the people already living there was done in 1919 in Balfour's memo ( known as the contradictory assurances )

[Tin Foil Timothy]

The UN has no authority to create a nation.

I already heard one idiot say that the UN created Israel recently. The level of naivety in this world is staggering,

[DC]

Tell us, Cheney, do the Helvetii (the original ones, in the time of Caesar) still live in Switzerland? Do they want autonomy for themselves? Do they want to use your home, your city to do it?

We got our independence in 1648 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia)

While the Helvetii didnt really survive Romanization and Alamanni migration, Celtic influence survived untill today in the Confoederatio Helvetica.


Think about this as you would Azerbaijan, except that the people clamoring for land are the 250 or so top rabble rousers in the province. That's essentially what the Lakota independence movement is all about. Russell Means is a poliical activist who happens to be an Indian, but make no mistake about which part is the more important. The rest of the Indians suffered, on the average, through a miserable 150 years, but they are, many of them, starting to get their piece, and don't want anyone upseting the apple cart.

The relationship between the white man and the American Indian is complicated. No Indian cilture that I'm aware of had a concept of property; that put them at a mojor disadvantage out of the gate. Right now an Indian, if he is certified by a council, has essentially independent citizenship in bioth the country and the Indan nation. He might renounce his US citizenship, as may anyone, but that may mean he has to give up jobs, and perhaps even residence. The Federal government treat reservations as if they are special-purpose states. The states they are in cannot tax them, and cannot rule over them (which is why they host casinos in states that otherwise outlaw them), but for he most part the concils and the states have come to agreements about police, fire, taxes and so on. Some of the states like it; they get some rake off the casinos, and still remain antivice.

I take that as a No, you would not support it.
that was the question actually :)

i would also not.
I dont really know if there is reason to blame the USA for the problems the Native Americans have today. But when people are in troubles liek they are, it is not to uncommon to think they would be better of on their own. if thats rationall or not, it happens.


There are parts of the history of Indians which, as a white American, I am not particularly proud of, but we are what we are, and I wasn't making decisions back then. I can't even claim I'd have done better. It also makes just as much sense for you, as a white European, to be somewhat shamed; after all, there's damned little difference between you and me but an accident of parentage, 10,000 miles and about 40 years, I judge.

i like that very much, because it is true. We have propably more in common that we differ. But still it is common to concentrate on the difrences.

[DC]

Nonsense.

It's nothing to do with the Holocaust. All this was started in the late 1800s with Herzl and crew, way way way before the Holocaust. The backing of the four great powers as ratified by Balfour as not giving a damn about the people already living there was done in 1919 in Balfour's memo ( known as the contradictory assurances )

I think it has very much to do with it, sure zionism is older, but i think it would not have got the support it got without the Holocaust. especially outside the movement.

[DC]

The UN has no authority to create a nation.

true, should have writen, formal recognition of Republic of Lakotah by UN.

[gumboot]

true, should have writen, formal recognition of Republic of Lakotah by UN.

How could that possibly happen? The only way a country can be recognised by the UN is by joining the UN as a member state.

For this to happen, the General Assembly must vote to allow the candidate to join the UN, and for this vote to happen, membership must first have been recommended by the Security Council. The United States is a permanent member of the Security Council, with veto powers. Thus any recommendation from the UNSC that Lakotah be accepted into the UN would be rejected out of hand.

Further, given that Lakotah has exactly zero recognition from UN member states, it is ludicrous to think the GA would vote to allow them entry into the UN.

You fail to appreciate the ramifications of such a vote. If a self-declared part of one member's territory is granted membership, it allows the potential for the self-declared part of any other member's territory to be granted membership. There is no way members of the UN would allow such a precedent to be set.

Finally, membership to the UN is only open to sovereign states, as established by the Montevideo Convention. There are four basic requirements for a state:

1) A permanent population
2) A defined territory
3) Government
4) Capacity to enter into relations with other states

The so-called "Republic of Lakotah" does not meet requirements 1, 3 or 4 and thus is ineligible for UN membership.

[shadron]

We got our independence in 1648 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia)

While the Helvetii didnt really survive Romanization and Alamanni migration, Celtic influence survived untill today in the Confoederatio Helvetica.

So, you consider yourself a Helvetii in the blood sense, or as an "invader/Immigrant"? Sorry - don't mean to get personal; it is essentially a rhetorical question.

I take that as a No, you would not support it.
that was the question actually :) Sorry, thought you were asking somewhere above for background. The answer is, no, I would not. It would be a huge power vacuum, and I wouldn't trust Means or his compadres with a candy store. It would be a huge disruption, and a huge resources sinkhole for years to come, and they're just being greedy, to boot. I think they settle for a single county, if they thought they could really get it. As it is, the movement will die of old age, on American soil.

i would also not.
I dont really know if there is reason to blame the USA for the problems the Native Americans have today. But when people are in troubles liek they are, it is not to uncommon to think they would be better of on their own. if thats rationall or not, it happens.My judgement is, that while the passage has been rough and assuredly uneven, as with other American minorities, it is smoothing out in the long run, and that means most everyone's lot is improving. A long time to perfection, yessiree.

i like that very much, because it is true. We have propably more in common that we differ. But still it is common to concentrate on the difrences.I was being unnecessarily obscure - what I meant is that I'm European in every measurable way. My Mom said we have some American Indian blood from somewhere, but almost everyone in America says that, just as everyone is related to Robert E Lee (she said that, too). I would be proud of it but I don't have proof either way. I'm French/English/Scots/German/Irish afaik, as European as you, if perhaps more spread out.

[gumboot]

It should be pointed out that not even all Sioux living in the alleged Republic of Lakotah want to have anything to do with the state. The Rosebud Sioux, Cheyenne River Lakotah, Standing Rock Sioux, and Teton Sioux have all publicly stated that Russell Means does not represent the Lakotah people.