Why are evils always ancient?

[cj.23]

OK, serious question. I have bene thinking about this a lot over the last few days, and am beginning to put together a papaer on it. Why in so much popular culture is the Evil always Ancient, lurking beyond? I know why Lovecraft used the idea - I'm quite up on Lovecraft studies - but has anyone lse ever noticed ths trend? Andcient Evil, elderly victim, bright young thing defeats unspeakable ancient evil, new hope arises?

cj x

[drkitten]

OK, serious question. I have bene thinking about this a lot over the last few days, and am beginning to put together a papaer on it. Why in so much popular culture is the Evil always Ancient, lurking beyond? I know why Lovecraft used the idea - I'm quite up on Lovecraft studies - but has anyone lse ever noticed ths trend? Andcient Evil, elderly victim, bright young thing defeats unspeakable ancient evil, new hope arises?


Better storytelling as it lets you contrast the bright, young thing with the ancient evil that has not been able to be defeated before. It also makes the odds against the heroine that much greater (for greater drama) and allows you to provide more detail about just how evil the bad guy is, because he's had lots of time to bring his evil plan to fruition.

Evil doesn't have to be that ancient -- Palpatine's empire is only twenty years old, but it does need to pre-exist to set a suitable challenge for the typical Campellian story.

[tomwaits]

Haha, an interesting question. I'd say that something being "ancient" harkens back to a day in which the "gods" were very much alive. To the ancient man, gods and spirits are all around us. Science and nature weren't well understood, so much of its workings were attributed to spirits, spells, ghosts, etc. So an Ancient Evil would be a reference to a more mythical and legendary time. And, of course, sorcery is almost always considered bad.

[Denver]

Several reasons come to mind:

- An Ancient evil is one that has been around a very long time, and still exists. So it implies one that is potentially undefeatable by normal means, more horrible to have to face, and requiring something special and out of the ordinary if victory is to be achieved.

- Ancient also implies a mirky contextual environment, where modern knowledge, reasoning, tactics, and so on, can be surprised and defeated by the other ancient issues that were not, or cannot, be considered while planning an attack.

- Because of the above, it's easier to make up weird things, and support suspension of belief while doing so, about ancient evils, since they have less supporting contexts to worry about.

[I Ratant]

And us old guys ARE evil!
Bwhhhhhaaaaahhhhaaaaaa...
Come into my secret laboreatory, swt, and I'll show you the secret of life, my lovely. (Heh, heh, heh)
Or, the other more rational explanations above.

[tomwaits]

Also, because something is from "ancient" times, there would be less known about it, which gives an air of the mysterious. An atomic bomb is scary and damaging, but it's not "mysterious" or "unknown" because of how well documented it is.

[Beerina]

And for some reason, thinking something old makes it seem more real, hence the Gospel of John saying Jesus was the Word and the Word was with God when forming the Earth. Presto! Suddenly Christianity is as old as Judaism, and not some newfangled cult.

[normdoering]

Why in so much popular culture is the Evil always Ancient, lurking beyond? I know why Lovecraft used the idea - I'm quite up on Lovecraft studies - but has anyone lse ever noticed ths trend? Andcient Evil, elderly victim, bright young thing defeats unspeakable ancient evil, new hope arises?

cj x

That theory of evil may apply to horror writers, but modern day Christians find a lot of evil in the purely modern.

Remember, Christianity is over 2,000 years old itself and before that there were lots of other religions that had to be demonized. Christianity has a taste for all things old and moldy for both evil and the godly, while science and modernity itself are viewed as satanic. Today some Christians seem to have the impression that all modern music is of the devil and that classical music is of God. Yet, the great classical composers such as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven also had to deal with accusations of Satanic influence.

Every innovation in the arts is viewed with suspicion, but eventually the Christian culture overcomes its devil fears of certain sound styles and adopts the new art form. Thus today we have Christian Heavy Metal bands like Barnabas, Bloodgood, Crimson Thorn, Rage of Angels, Seventh Angel and Vengeance Rising. Can you tell the difference between Christian Metal and Satanic Metal? Well, one of those Christian groups, Vengeance Rising, manage to sound more sick, demonic, twisted and EVIL than supposed devil worshiping bands like Morbid Angel.

More here:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2008/12/devils-music.html

[dudalb]

Because if it has been around for a long,long, time, it indicates it is not only evil but really, really, strong and hard to get rid of.

[Z]

Ancient evils can also serve in the form of a sub-text contrasting conventional or conservative, entrenched powers or notions against modern, liberal, creative ideas. A lot of your 'ancient evil' bad guys aren't just ancient and evil, they're also relics of old nobility or ancient kingdoms, or use tactics that are reflected in the degenerative or retrogressive political environment of the tale. The young, with-it, forward thinking hero has to have a dynamically opposed villain - someone dressing in the fashions of last century, someone who laments the closing of the workhouses and sweatshops, etc.

Personally, I like the opposite. The new Joker, to me, is the 'modern, new-fangled evil' incarnate. At least, he makes a man in a rubber bat suit look conservative and old-fashioned... :D

[Silentknight]

Evils are not always ancient, obviously. A lot of good stories have been written about evils that are in the process of rising to power so that you can experience the heroes' struggles to race against time and prevent this from happening. In fact, it can create a much more dramatic shock if the hero tries and fails to stop the villain from achieving power, or better yet, the hero's actions were somehow instrumental in the villain's rise to power. Several classic Squaresoft RPGs have had stories like this.

On a related tangent, one of the disadvantages to having an existing or ancient evil is that sometimes the author has to go into an exposition to set up this evil and explain why it's supposed to be so threateningly overpowering. Sometimes this device falls flat on its face. Examples of expositions that didn't work IMO, all from the children's / young adult genre, include Inkheart where Dustfinger is trying to tell Meggie about the evil overlord Capricorn, Eragon where Brom is telling the story of the emperor's rise to power, and the first Harry Potter where Hagrid is telling Harry how evil Voldemort was supposed to be. The reason I hate this is because authors are supposed to show, not tell. Why not show some of this happening instead of just having some douche narrate it?

[ImaginalDisc]

Someone has obviously never read Frankenstein, or any science-fiction.

"I have created a monster" is a theme about new evils. Gattaca is a film is about the mixed benefits and detriments of designer babies. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep is about, well, a lot of things, but among them it's about androids yearning to be human, and being willing to kill to get it.

As always, you're just wrong. That must be tiresome.

[SimonD]

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, just to mention a few modern evils

[fuelair]

But regular bullets could or did take them out. Takes specialty munitions for the old evils.

[SimonD]

But regular bullets could or did take them out. Takes specialty munitions for the old evils.

Sure took some load of bullets to kill Hitler in Castle Wolfenstein. :)

[madurobob]

But... isn't a lot of the "good" also ancient? Seems I've encountered many stories where the hero visits the crazy old hermit who imparts the ancient wisdom necessary to defeat the great evil. Arthur pulls the ancient sword from the rock, etc...

I think there is just an "ancient" fetish among lazy writers.

[cj.23]

Someone has obviously never read Frankenstein, or any science-fiction.

"I have created a monster" is a theme about new evils. Gattaca is a film is about the mixed benefits and detriments of designer babies. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep is about, well, a lot of things, but among them it's about androids yearning to be human, and being willing to kill to get it.

Yes can think of hundreds of examples - I never said all evils in pop culture were "ancient Evils" did i? I'm interested in the prevalence of this specific motif, that is all. Anyway I thought you put me on ignore? :) Glad to see you decided to keep arguing.


As always, you're just wrong. That must be tiresome.

If so, pop back over to the pagan Christmas/Yule/Easter thread and prove it with facts and evidence then. :)

cj x
.

[drkitten]

Yes can think of hundreds of examples - I never said all evils in pop culture were "ancient Evils" did i?

Well, this thread is titled "Why are evils always ancient?"

So it's reasonable to assume that you believe that evils are always ancient, from the fact that you asked why they were....

[ImaginalDisc]

Well, this thread is titled "Why are evils always ancient?"

So it's reasonable to assume that you believe that evils are always ancient, from the fact that you asked why they were....

Even when I have him on ignore, I can see he's vacilating wildly.

[cj.23]

Yes, crap title choice by me. Well spotted Dr Kitten, and apologies to Imaginal Disc - if he actually has me on ignore he can't have read my OP to put it in context. Can someone quote this apology so he can read it? :)

Cheers!
cj x

[arthwollipot]

Your wish is my command.

Yes, crap title choice by me. Well spotted Dr Kitten, and apologies to Imaginal Disc - if he actually has me on ignore he can't have read my OP to put it in context. Can someone quote this apology so he can read it? :)

Cheers!
cj xPersonally I think that there's a lot of literary mileage possible with the "ancient evil" idea. For a start, I've always felt that the best place to start a story is in the middle (everything I learned about storytelling I learned from Babylon 5 :)). You get lots of things you can hint at, or imply, leaving big reveals as climaxes.

[Cavemonster]

All good vs evil stories are about killing your father aren't they?

The one who's been in power for a long time before the young hero came along, and must be vanquished for exercising that power corruptly?

[drkitten]

All good vs evil stories are about killing your father aren't they?

No, although a lot of them could be read that way. A lot of good vs. evil stories are about stamping out new evil before it can establish itself. But even newly-arisen good vs. ancient evil don't have to be read in quite that Freudian a manner --- many of them, for example, are explicity or implicitly Christ stories (think of the Matrix, esp. the third one) where the point is not to kill your father, but to bring about a transformation of yourself and through yourself, the world.

[drkitten]

All good vs evil stories are about killing your father aren't they?

The one who's been in power for a long time before the young hero came along, and must be vanquished for exercising that power corruptly?

Further to previous:

In what sense is the Lord of the Rings series about "killing your father"?

It's definitely a good-vs-evil story, in fact, it comes close to being the trope-maker for the fantasy genre. And it's littered with monomyth Campbellesque heroes and/or Christ figures; Gandalf, Frodo, Aragorn, Sam, and Pippin/Merry (ETA and even Gollum, I suppose) all qualify.

But Sauron is hardly a father figure to anyone.

[bjornart]

Because if it has been around for a long,long, time, it indicates it is not only evil but really, really, strong and hard to get rid of.

I agree. Fresh evil might possibly just clear up by itself, ancient evil is more likely to require foolhardy action.

[Fiona]

I thought it was because you are supposed identify with the goody and it sells better if the goody is hawt

[drkitten]

I thought it was because you are supposed identify with the goody and it sells better if the goody is hawt

I didn't realize you considered hobbits "hawt."

But there's also nothing keeping the baddy from being attractive, too. That's another standard trope as well --- the ancient, demoniacal evil that appears as the hottest actress you can find. Think of almost any production of Faust you've seen. It's astonishing who they can get to play Mephistopheles, and how little they can persuade her to wear.

[I Ratant]

I didn't realize you considered hobbits "hawt."

But there's also nothing keeping the baddy from being attractive, too. That's another standard trope as well --- the ancient, demoniacal evil that appears as the hottest actress you can find. Think of almost any production of Faust you've seen. It's astonishing who they can get to play Mephistopheles, and how little they can persuade her to wear.
.
Alla them slinky broads Terry and the Pirates and Blackhawk used to fight around the world..
Before the days of sprayed-on wet vinyl, wearing slit from there to here gowns.
Evil incarnate!

[Silentknight]

Sure took some load of bullets to kill Hitler in Castle Wolfenstein. :)

Yup. Also, it seems like no matter where you look, Hitler (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdolfHitler) and the Nazis are used as typecast villains in each and every story genre in existence. Whenever writers need some generic antagonist to plug into their plot, the Nazis are always there to save the day! After all, everyone knows that Hitler was the only evil person that history has ever produced. Sometimes Hitler even gets resurrected or brought into the future (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidJetpackHitler).

However, as you pointed out, things don't always work out so well for him...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/2190348deaadad6b0a.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13934)

[Alareth]

It's my belief that if true evils existed, ancient or otherwise, they wouldn't manifest are the scary things popular consensus likes to portray them as.

Instead they would assume small, cute and cuddly forms such as kittens. This way your guard is down and you are likely to pick them up and hold them close to you, protect them and ultimately be corrupted and consumed by them.

And yes, I firmly believe kitties are the bestest.

[arthwollipot]

Start reading from here (http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=000626).

[GreyICE]

OK, serious question. I have bene thinking about this a lot over the last few days, and am beginning to put together a papaer on it. Why in so much popular culture is the Evil always Ancient, lurking beyond? I know why Lovecraft used the idea - I'm quite up on Lovecraft studies - but has anyone lse ever noticed ths trend? Andcient Evil, elderly victim, bright young thing defeats unspeakable ancient evil, new hope arises?

cj x

Entire horror motif works much better since ancient things automatically have an aura of mystery. Also, lazy writer syndrome - Lovecraft is such a huge influence on the genre that it's just hard to overstate it. Actually Lovecraft hardly limited himself to ancients - The Color Out of Space was perfectly brilliant, and quite spooky.

Anyone who watched the terminator knows that there's futuristic horrors that work plenty well.

Bond and similar feature a cast of perfectly evil modern villains - Dr No. on forward, Bond's evils are quite modern. The entire genre of superspy is actually quite good with modern evils - and also reveals why the genre kinda fails for horror.

P.S. Enemy of the State also reveals why modern drama films are almost inevitably controversial if they try to include the sense of hopelessness that horror invokes. They kept it almost as far from actual government as they could, and it's STILL an attack on the NSA.

[Delvo]

If your story supposes the existence of superadvanced technology or magic, things outside the usual experience of your audience, then it also needs to account for the fact that such things aren't normally experienced by us all every day. Having it be banished, asleep, frozen, canceled out, blocked, or such since long ago is the only way to do that, other than claiming that it's still active around us today but somehow hidden from ordinary people (as in the Harry Potter world) or just setting the whole thing in an alternate universe where it actually is common and well-known to that world's inhabitants.

[dudalb]

And "Ancient Evil" just sounds a lot cooler then "Brand New Evil" or "Recent Evil".

[Dave Rogers]

I have a slightly different suggestion on this, which is really only half-developed. One of the points of fighting ancient evil is that it's the young who have to prevail if good is to triumph, and this may involve considerable self-sacrifice on the part of the young - even to the point of sacrificing their lives. This colludes with religion, which often employs the motif of the young sacrificing themselves for ultimate good - Jesus is the classic example, but the idea crops up elsewhere - to reinforce the meme that laying down one's life for a cause, whilst still young enough that this involves the loss of most of it, is worthwhile for the common good. The end result is a cultural bias leading to a greater availability of young people to fight wars in what they are assured is a good cause.

This sounds rather conspiracist, but it's not necessarily meant that way; there could be an evolutionary explanation. Cultures that emphasise self-sacrifice in the young are more likely to win their wars, and hence to survive and prosper, so there's a tendency towards natural selection.

The key feature, therefore, in this interpretation, would be not that evil is ancient but that good is young; ancient evil is therefore optionally invoked to reinforce by contrast.

I suspect the above is something of a house of cards, but I don't really have the background knowledge to evaluate it. All refutations are of course welcome.

Dave

[arthwollipot]

Cultures that emphasise self-sacrifice in the young are more likely to win their wars, and hence to survive and prosper, so there's a tendency towards natural selection.Despite having a percentage of their breeding population killed off?

[Dave Rogers]

Despite having a percentage of their breeding population killed off?

Male breeding population, generally; we're more redundant, and hence more expendable. And, of course, it's not just the soldiers who get killed, particularly on the losing side.

Dave

[Mark6]

Despite having a percentage of their breeding population killed off?

Most if not all warrior cultures were polygamous. Unsuccessful males died, successful ones had multiple wives. Or mistresses, in Christian warrior cultures.